Content Team members and how to fix their reputation. Terminated said no, kinda sad

[hollow nexus]

Thing is right, constructive feedback does have good posts from time to time but I definitely don’t think I’m alone when I say there are also a lot of random posts in here that kinda flood it up

[glossy bane]

random posts are part of the nature of this format

[hollow nexus]

yeah but a polls channel would only be by CT or developers

It wouldn’t be as much random stuff as in a channel like this

[glossy bane]

a solution has to be found to get whats important/matters out of these threads, and forwarded towards CT

[hollow nexus]

aka what a community manager could do

[glossy bane]

you are saying something

[jaunty night]

Feedback is such a steaming pile of a thread hub

Like mods having to cut through the verbal thicket that guild comm tends to be, I dont blame ct not wanting to see all that goes on in there

[glossy bane]

basically a feedback threads room where only CT can create posts?

has upsides, and downsides... but could work

[hollow nexus]

yes

[glossy bane]

(in addition to the normal player feedback thread room)

and forum posts could remain for very important polls

[hollow nexus]

Almost all current methods of feedback right now are heavily prone to convenience bias icl

Limited channels that ordinary people wouldn’t be able to find unless they were specifically told they exist, and also feedback only when an active CT is in the chat so you just need to be online when it happens

surely we can’t consider just those opinions as the “majority,” right?

[glossy bane]

since CT and Salted decides on what content makes it into the game at the end of the day, I give in, you win. A feedback threads room where only CT can make posts. Could be an interesting test.

it would allow for CT to make somewhat important posts, while allowing for upvotes/downvotes, as well as opinions

the only concern is these threads getting a bit too crowded sometimes, when there is heavy discussion

but... thats part of the game?

in any case, those threads could be formatted in the form of a pool, as well as multiple pools per thread, if they make multiple comments per thread, with upvote/downvote options for each comment

[hollow nexus]

imo threads get devolved really easily, just a vote by itself would not be bad. Worst comes to worse, discord has its official polls that can be hosted that allow for several options and I think those work fairly well

[hollow nexus]

like this seems like it’s overcomplicating it a lot

[glossy bane]

why?

[hollow nexus]

In reality I don’t think it has to be that out there but just a simple channel with polls hosted once in a while would be good

also it’d show that feedback is listened to, none of those “CT don’t play the game!!!!” allegations which just make everyone upset

[glossy bane]

lets say, there are 3 problems with an archetype, and they list the 3 polls about the 3 problems in the same thread, but in different comments one by one.. is that complicated poll on? I guess the discussion could be a bit cloudy... but its the same archetype, so its one topic

don't ask me about my english there... "is that too complicated of a poll?*"

[hollow nexus]

It’d just be 3 separate polls in quick succession, wdym. I wasn’t following when you said stuff about having multiple pools etc

[glossy bane]

you said this would be overcomplicating it

[hollow nexus]

I got a bit confused on this message

[glossy bane]

there are 3 problems with 1 archetype, so they make their comments, as well as list their solution in 3 separate poll comments in the same 1 thread. That is 3 polls in 1 thread, but its the same discussion because its the same archetype.

problem 1
solution 1

REACTIONS

problem 2
solution2

REACTIONS

etc.

[hollow nexus]

I’m not a huge fan of the idea of more threads though, I feel like it would just turn to more spam. Worst comes to worse if a discussion does need to happen, you can just ping the CT in AT Reworks or smth

I think a simple vote would suffice

[glossy bane]

I understand. Let me react.

Then we should make it this format, where CT make polls in that room, and only CT can comment.

problem, solution/potential solutions, reactions (upvote/downvote or in special cases, other emojies)

if players cannot react, then they will make their own threads in the normal player feedback thread channel separately, a lot of them (might be good, might be bad, in any case, it would happen)... then you would need to somehow convey the few important bits and conclusions of all those player threads towards the CT

so basically

CT only has to hear 2 things:

• the result of their polls
• the few important bits and conclusions that the players came up with regarding their polls, as a result of hours long conversations (this requires a solution)

But players must have a platform to discuss it. Which is the current feedback thread room, the very room that this thread is in.

this would allow the CT to get clearer opinions, and get more time to work on their projects

[copper grail]

the polls: should we nerf hero

[glossy bane]

of course, polls should be well thought out and be discussed by CT before posting them

but that should happen in CT discord

@floral wasp@hexed saffron opinions on these? (from maybe this message #1400225359517192272 message )

I'm especially curious about your opinions because this is a very CT-related topic

[hollow nexus]

I don’t think you read my earlier message, I’ll link it here #1400225359517192272 message

A poll like that would just be a bad poll and yield no results

something like that would just have to be through balance changes

[copper grail]

if they do have to have polls then i would think they would have to limit who is eligible to vote

[hollow nexus]

certain level in discord wouldn’t be bad idea to prevent alts yeah

[copper grail]

icl they might as well make it paid being exclusive to ranked users which defeats the point of having as many people as possible sharing their opinions but i dont have a favorable view on the intelligence of the general playerbase

[glossy bane]

the only reason it should be restricted who should vote is to prevent alt abuse.. but idk how thats possible

the vote is not the final say.. its just part of the discussion to loosely see whats up

half of the conclusions will come from the numerous feedback threads that will be created as a result of the poll

what we need is a way to get the most important conclusions from those threads and forward them to CT

[copper grail]

i mean ct could already make polls using the discord feature in the dedicated feedback threads

as for if they are actively doing them IDK

[glossy bane]

but a separate CT polls channel would be very useful to catalog those polls so anyone can easily look back to them even in years

they just have to stay there for like 2 years, until they become completely irrelevant

but for like the first half a year, they might get referenced in other threads so its useful

[copper grail]

i say that cuz i believe that the people voting on them would ideally be the ones who care enough to come across with and are directly affected

like level 50 joe schmoe is definitely less qualified to vote on major archetype changes

[glossy bane]

yeah if you don't have any faith in the players, then you will be able to find a lot of excuses for why not create this thread option for CTs

[copper grail]

precisely my point

[glossy bane]

but you are the minority here I think... most players as well as the CT have faith in the general playerbase

[glossy bane]

would the lvl 50 new player pay attention to these polls? or would the end-game players, who know about the existence of these polls vote and write opinions and on instead? I'm sure some new players would come across them too, but you get the point

these polls would be quite rare anyway, with no ping, just maybe a notice somewhere

and again, they don't have a decisive role, just a loose roll of mapping out opinions, as well as interest in the topic itself (if it gets a lot of votes, its either very controversial, or very popular in the end-game player's mind)

[mystic gull]

This is exactly my vision, so good 😭

[wet owl]

you genuinely could not pay me to do this i think

[mystic gull]

Exactly

[maiden echo]

are you able to make overpowered ings just for funsies

[hollow nexus]

how much

[wet owl]

they have to pass a vote but theoretically i can submit whatever i want

[maiden echo]

how smart are the people who vote on it/how much do they care to check

[wet owl]

ten people from constructive feedback are randomly chosen

[maiden echo]

were cooked

can you pick ray

[wet owl]

only if i get to flame the shit out of him in vc

[maiden echo]

poor ray man i like him

ray is like that kid from up but for this server

[hollow nexus]

crazy description of someone

[wet owl]

the. which kid are you talking about

[weary wadi]

what kid

[maiden echo]

russell

[wet owl]

oh my god 😭

[maiden echo]

am i wrong though?

[brisk wren]

Consult with jp I will vote whatever he does!

[wet owl]

i think he would say to add more gathering levels to professions and get rid of the guild terr boost

his system of keeping players in the game has grown far too easy

[brisk wren]

I can convince him for the inverse.. In fact, Fruma is going to give city terrs crafting boost

[weary wadi]

nahhh you cant say that

[maiden echo]

ray is the class building heart and soul

[wicked umbra]

i have a gif version like 200 gifs into my gif list

[maiden echo]

wasnt it a potato peeler

[wicked umbra]

something along those lines 😊

[maiden echo]

selvuts thing was an interesting take when it was pretty clear what you actually meant

[wicked umbra]

me when i'm in a smear campaign competition and my opponent is a ct who does not like me...

[maiden echo]

i understand the reasoning behind why he said what he said

but you were more than clear enough to know that wasnt the case

[languid island]

I for one am thankful for everybody's responsiveness. It's hell a lot better than few years ago.

Which is why even if this thread happend, Salted can just come in and do something neither players nor CT want and no one can do anything about it.

Back in the day Salted was the ONLY person allowed to make Mythics. That included their balancing.

[languid island]

How many gifs do you have?

[wicked umbra]

hundreds

[kind plume]

And it's unfair that the community often acts like salted doesn't know what he's doing when he's made most of this whole game possible

There will always be a person that finalises decisions or is the arbiter of certain things. It doesn't matter what you do with the structure.

Salted is not that for the vast majority of things these days (especially ability tree and items that have their own dedicated teams)

But it doesn't make the reasoning for any of his decisions less valid, though obviously they can and do change over time

[trim epoch]

I think a part of this is also caused by random CT changes (Healing cap on intox, entropy nerf)
changes that scream "why." like who thought these were problems/hings that needed to be changed

[copper grail]

i dont think ct intended burger builds on bmonk to be busted with the new thaumic node either

[trim epoch]

sadly i can't build burger in beta

[trim epoch]

update: i can
whats the atree build

[native jay]

IM and AT. People were using my statements relating to items and abilities to harass other people. I could deal with being harassed myself, but using my statements as a springing-off point to harass OTHER PEOPLE was a step too far.

[fleet patrol]

i feel like theres so few id give reasonable ratings most are either hoing straight in F or S lmfao

[carmine heath]

S: The ones that buffed what I like :)
F: The ones that nerfed what I like :(

[mystic gull]

There are moments where I really dislike this community

[trim epoch]

in general i think certain people need to be banned from feedback

[green canopy]

if only there was a role specifically used to mute people from feedback channels.....

[native jay]

believe me it wasnt a decision i would have made unless it was absolutely necessary

[kind plume]

These aren't random CT changes. They are even heavily explained in their dedicated feedback threads (for the examples you gave)

[trim epoch]

to me if you wanted to nerf entropy just nerf lach 😭 instead of making this workaround
fully disagree with the reasoning given, the change itself just seems out of nowhere and out of touch at times

[maiden echo]

nah just nerfing lach is kinda ass

[heavy crystal]

its a very popular decision clearly

[maiden echo]

Drugs and gambling update next

[paper nest]

https://tenor.com/view/corn-popcorn-amazing-match-gif-11866896

[soft veldt]

Vocal minority

[carmine heath]

fallen stays winning

[short sage]

Insane post

(I did not read anything besides the title)

[hoary anchor]

this has probably been brought up already but a good example of what not to do is in https://discord.com/channels/143852930036924417/1397683964860432476

the riftwalker community brought forth good and valid advice after CT made a TERRIBLE change for both riftwalker and arcanist

and we had one CT member completely disregard our advice, even to the point of going "womp womp" to some of our advice/suggestions

and another CT member somewhat engage but also just defend the other CT member

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1184481478558625816/1400652407637282866/convert.gif

[heavy crystal]

womp womp

[ripe robin]

couldn't even say womp womp right

🥀

[hoary anchor]

fr

wom womp

[green canopy]

once a shitposter, always a shitposter

[fallow widget]

not as bad as selvut saying he could take harassment earlier

-# I don't remember which channel it was but he done said that

[heavy crystal]

.

[heavy crystal]

its right above

[jaunty flax]

or make bosses more rewarding, like i don't have an issue in doing tna boss in 5 minutes if the fight is fun but also rewards more

[fallow widget]

boss would have to have more variety too

[jaunty flax]

like i can see a raid lasting 10 minutes (double) but giving 8 le rewards

for me there is not a lot of fun in a Bossfight that only last 1 attack (TCC for example)

and a lot of ppl will say that is fun, but is mostly because they clear in record time to get optimized rewards

[native jay]

I've been shouldering harassment and varied death threats since Corkus came out.

[fallow widget]

just saying, the only example I've seen people got banned
for a lot you still don't look the best

100% do not envy what being CT sometimes gets you

[jaunty flax]

Lumi: SS tier and the guy that does LR work (both of them are super respectful and have a lot of transparency), love how they communicate with the community, i hate when a CT is super vague about changes or something

oh and jerry too, super cool guy

usually the ones responsible of music in every game are super cool

when i was a tester at some games i did get along a lot of them

Also in my case a lot of CTs aren't that much wrong, like Terminated usually have some polemic statements that i could agree, but sometimes the context of them are usually very vague or they are made in a utopic context, like how dps works or immersion, like their points aren't bad, but in the context of the current game state they are irrelevant or contradictory with other content of the game

[native jay]

That being? I haven't been a mod in years, and I can't remember contacting a mod in months.

[fallow widget]

oh gawd he's still typing

[native jay]

So I'm reasonably confident that it was an instance of mods acting on rules and, y'know, moderating rather than an instance of me running off and tatting to them, which like...what are we, 7 years old? If people are bein shits and breaking the rules, why not report them?

Well, in my case it's cause there's a big enough crowd that scrutinizes everything I do that 90% of the time I go get mods, the harassment increases because he group realizes and comes after me harder.

[fallow widget]

I value my ability to talk on this server too much to say anything more
peace out

[native jay]

DMs are open bud

[heavy crystal]

It's truly awful how some people in this community treat CT's though
I honestly feel so bad for you and am sorry that you have to deal with that

[native jay]

Not like I'm tryin to catch you in a "gotcha" trap or something, I'm just genuinely curious

I love working on the game too much to give it up even despite all that

[soft veldt]

I think there was some moderator overreach when ppl got hit for the selv thing when it was on wynnbuilder

i dont know the situation exactly but I remember that being a controversial move (not blaming you)

[heavy crystal]

I love the music you have made
they are some of my favourite pieces in the game

[native jay]

Oh, were they talking about the selvs thing? I just kept quiet despite getting like 21 pings in an hour or whatever

It's annoying when that stuff gets taken out of context and ridiculed, but that's like, nothin

I didn't like it but I don't think I made a single report. That was everyone else- and despite the sudden insistence on it I don't think it's any worse than people taking the "cata has no gimmick" statement out of context

[native jay]

I need to make more. Other composers have been doing phenomenal work though and have like, actual musical experience. Yall're in for such a treat when Fruma comes out

[soft veldt]

I play with music off so I haven't actually heard the OST

which songs have you made, ill give them a listen

[jaunty flax]

you could check them on housing

[soft veldt]

uhh

i cant enter the game

[jaunty flax]

ohh

then idk i just go to housing while i wait for annie, there i set a playlist

[native jay]

I remixed Ballad of the Trees to be closer to Salted's original, and made(with collabs counted) Forgotten Excelsior, Mining Rhythms, The Stronghold Yet Stands, Stirring the Sands, Affliction of Lunacy, World Ender, Camaraderie, Insanity, Prelude to Insanity, War-Weary Reverie, Visions of the Warrior, Balada del Vagabundo Marino, I can't remember the name offhand but the Volcano Isles theme, and I vaguely recall a couple others that I completely can't remember the details about. Jerry's done all the updated instrument remixes though.

oh, right, The Dark Artist's Anthem and, though I hesitate to say "made" since it's a remix of a royalty free RPGMaker tune, Labyrinth of Desperation

[hoary anchor]

Winteria is awesome from my limited interactions with them

[jaunty flax]

i haven't interact with them, but i haven't heard anything bad, so must be true

[languid geode]

They are very helpful ye...

[fallow widget]

In my experience, Terminated is easy to not like but he is also right most of the time. There's like this bell curve of time reading his messages where you go from "he seems reasonable" to thinking he's abrasive to going back to realizing he's just a dude who doesn't always care to manage the utmost appearance with literally everyone.

And there isn't really a problem with that either

[kind plume]

Rollercoaster moment

[fallow widget]

yeah pretty much

[kind plume]

Fr though: I will always defend our collective position, provide reasons why we took certain decisions and push back on people trying to sneak nastiness for the sake of it into what could be useful discussion.

I defend our position so vehemently because if none of us believed in what we were doing or the motivation behind it, then it would never have made it to live in the first place 😂. I also defend our position more prominently than other members of the CT because some of them dont want to speak out in favour of a change due to community response often being downright nasty and I dont think any of them should have to deal with that when it is majorly their free time they spend adding stuff to the game.

Imagine if when you got home from your irl job you were instantly met with unwarranted nastiness when you're meant to get purely enjoyment out of this game (being a volunteer) lol.

Despite me coming off as "disagreeing with everyone else", any ct can tell you that quite often I and others will state our position in public rigidly and pretty much immediately start a discussion internally about whatever feedback I've seen and how to consider it/include it in our future changes.

[fallow widget]

yeah that sums it up I think

we've SEEN you guys make changes based on our feedback, most recently being the changes to monetization being partially repealed

[kind plume]

I will even defend our collective position if I personally disagree with the decision. I believe we're a team and we should act like one

but truly the feedback Does make it through and I have the luxury of wynncraft being my job in life right now

[fallow widget]

-# even if I personally wish more was taken back, hence my name still being public advocation...

[fallow widget]

I think this just makes you a real one

takes effort to present that kind of thing sometimes
the amount of people I come across who seem incapable of so much as thinking of doing that is sad, compromise is the the biggest thing keeping people in general together
respect

[carmine heath]

damn it's actually your full-time job? Nice

[kind plume]

Not full time no, but I dont fill the other time with anything else right now lol

[carmine heath]

🥴

[kind plume]

(the other part time i volunteer in constructive feedback )

[hollow nexus]

I respect this hella

only thing though is that if you are on constant defense, it comes off as not being open to ideas from others

Like I think it’s possible to defend decisions but at the same time consider other options if they truly do have good support behind them

[weak oak]

yeah i think the reason why people have this perception of you is probably quite a lot because of that unwavering defence, and while you discuss the feedback behind the scenes it sometimes doesnt really come across until noticeboard lights up

[hollow nexus]

in all honesty just a simple addition to a message like “yeah I’ll bring this up internally and see if it’s something that could be done or if it’s beneficial to add” would go a long way just in terms of how people perceive CT

just right now some CT just reply back like “yeah my opinion is better, screw you and your opinion, mine is going to prevail over yours regardless anyways” (obvious exaggeration, but it comes off as this)

can’t emphasize some enough, I do think that majority of CT are good with feedback but that “some” do tend to be pretty active when they chat so it feels worse

[kind plume]

I appreciate this. It's just not always that simple because people take my word even more seriously than any regular ct. So saying "we'll consider this" to some people instantly turns into "we're doing this" 😭

There are also a bunch of times where we will disagree (ct and community) and that's gotta be ok too. Its far too frequent that any disagreement instantly gets met with a response from you guys of "they never take feedback", even if we've listened to and implemented 90% of what has been asked for it sometimes never seems enough

just like from your side its not everyone there is a vast majority of easy to talk to people that I and others frequently discuss things with here but that 10% joining the conversation and ruining it can be really offputting

[hollow nexus]

have you seen the riftwalker womp womp incident 😔

[glossy bane]

developers (CT counts as devs here) interacting with the community so much doesn't have many precedents... it takes time to establish what things mean when they are said out loud

"we'll consider this" turning into "we're doing this".. it will take some more time on both sides, as well as some adjustments on both sides, until we players can understand that it just means "sounds like something to think about, we'll consider/think about this"

[pliant topaz]

consider THIS

[ashen leaf]

This is already done a lot, the only problem is it gets drowned out by incessant complaining and insults thrown by the player with sprinkles of actual feedback

[brave lodge]

i really think it would do wynn well to have a volunteer PR team bc i feel like a lot of CT members are very much invested in their changes (as they should be, what kind of creator isn't invested in what they do) and as such you get a lot of cases where a singular CT member's opinion is heralded as truth or they respond poorly to players responding poorly. i don't think there's such a thing as bad feedback. kneejerk reactions are annoying but it's not like they don't get to the meat of the problem -- the amount of complaining and yelling about fallen, despite most of the whining being unproductive, is because of a very simple fact that now fallen is very heavily aspect and tome reliant in order to do... the intended gameplay loop. i think the expectations of the players with the beta and CT with the beta are wildly different: players want the changes to have been tested and for people to be familiar with the classes they're changing (cough cough riftwalker cough cough) and CT run it as an experiment and respond negatively to very harshly worded negative reactions from the players

maybe this is just a me thing but i would prefer a nebulous "i'll relay this to the team -- this was their justification for making such change 'blah blah blah' and this negative response will be taken into account" to a classic "wom womp" message which is dismissive rather than indicative that you're actually hearing anything the players are saying

[fleet patrol]

this is kinda real yeah tbh some reactions to criticism are as immature and spur of the moment as the criticism itself and it rlly doesnt look good or inspire faith in the team even though there is good reason to trust their process

[brave lodge]

yeah and i at least personally feel that having a PR team would mean that there's some level of distance between the person responding to feedback and the change itself

[heavy crystal]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1184481478558625816/1400652407637282866/convert.gif

[azure owl]

the issue is that even the first example isn't exactly heard by the players pretty often
in fallen's case i was the one acting as PR, im not sure if anyone saw my repeated messages of "it's a beta, it's not final, we want to iterate on it based on feedback"
(which we did do with AB, healing is taking more time since we're coordinating with IMs)
people just acted as if it was on live already
we could get a new special type of mod to deal with this, but idk how many people are willing to exclusively deal with people not reading things right (or at all) or jumping to conclusions

[brave lodge]

i think then part of it is that some of CT is too knee jerky and that undermines more calculated responses. two things can be true which is that you tried your best to damage control but discussions had fallen quickly out of order

[hollow nexus]

only issue is that for the most part when having a PR guy, other ct would leave that guy to respond it or have the PR guy have a more distinguishable role that shows that they are the one who is communicating changes

mod role would make sense if that's easier

[brisk wren]

the problem is more so that these comments are all over the place

im not about to stalk you or any other CT across multiple threads or channels just to hope to find what i'm looking for

the only one worth doing that is term because he is more active, generally has more knowledge since hes in charge of making the stuff and actually willing to share more than you guys

[azure owl]

what multiple threads or channels, i wrote that stuff all in the fallen thread
it was literally in the initial post

[brisk wren]

im moreso talking about general stuff

[hoary anchor]

I will say, at times it can be pretty clear that some teams within the CT do disregard player feedback, even when it is overwhelming. A clear example of this is the current playerbase discussion on some of the recent mage changes, which have equal and unwavering dislike from everyone who avidly plays mage. The current CT response was “it makes it feel better” (which it doesn’t) and, when feedback was given, “Wom womp”. That, and some more defiance from another CT member is the only interaction we’ve had on the issue, apart from winteria who actually listened and understood our arguments. However, winteria has openly admitted that he doesn’t work on mage, so he can’t make any changes.

[grave raft]

n

[ashen leaf]

"I don't think there is such a thing as bad feedback"

I can find quite a few actually.

Also, your second point, what exactly is a beta then? Why make it seem like beta is going to be the live. I don't think I've experienced a single beta that had zero changes made from the original push. This is just another case of putting the blame on CT, and trying victimize the player (Which is a seriously crazy statement to make, but it just fits right).

I also love the consistent use of "womp womp" and then generalizing the whole team with it. Imagine if CT did that, "This player said that we are all stupid, now I will generalize the whole playerbase to be toxic and not worth listening since they don't have anything valid to say." That's how you sound. There are definitely cases of a CT being dismissive, or downright pushing a certain problem aside. But generalizing is a terrible way to make an argument, and it's also a great way to get your argument DISMISSED.

[brave lodge]

if a beta came out with a severely broken, not-well-thought-out ability, i think it sets a very low bar for the CT as a whole and does not inspire confidence. pushing out entirely broken things to beta that should have been dead on ideation does not inspire confidence. wrt to the fallen changes, that would be the obvious which is that fallen is now entirely reliant on aspects and heff tomes to function.

what i mean by the first point is that intentionally bad faith feedback is rare enough that it does not pose a significant issue. poorly worded statements of "this suck" still hold merit, though they obviously don't provide a concrete change. obviously there is reason to trust CT because -- duh -- they don't want to make the game worse, that wouldn't make sense from any perspective

if a CT is dismissive, they probably should not be communicating with the playerbase at all since being dismissive in a space expressly for critiques and feedback is counterproductive. you're right that my sweeping assertation is wrong but you're wrong that i generalized all CT with it. CT are obviously very invested in the work they do and their response to either bait statements or genuine but whiny dialogue varies greatly. ideally the public-facing members of CT should not be outright dismissing the claims of players -- which is why a volunteer PR team, i feel, would allow for a more centralized means of communication.

and obviously i can't outright remove my bias towards the players since that's what i am but the "players" in this situation hold no power over the outcome of any decision made by CT other than complaining. toxicity is a real problem within the playerbase, i'm not trying to say it's not, but there is a difference between players (who have less perceived power in this dynamic) and CT (who have more power in this dynamic) dismissing and being rude to either good or bad faith messages

[ashen leaf]

Terrible response

See, notice how you didn't respond?

[brave lodge]

because this is a conversation, not something about game balance, and i'm not the one that has the power to do anything about it. if you're gonna shut down the conversation then by all means i'm not gonna respond because i am not someone that posted a thread asking for feedback. the context is different and the rules of conversation are different when it's not someone specifically requesting feedback LMAO these two things aren't equivalent and you know it

[ashen leaf]

You can make that argument, BUT YOU DID MAKE A SUGGESTION. In fact, your suggestion was a "PR CT team." In fact, how is my point any different from a player going "This game is shit." How come you are allowed to determine what is considered "feedback" or not? Also, my response to you originally was not a conversational response. It was FEEDBACK ON YOUR RESPONSE. In fact, you have the ability to change my feedback by altering your original proposal/statement.

This is just a series of excuses strung together with barely any more than a passing thought.

[brave lodge]

point me to what influence i have over the decisions of wynncraft. that's been the goalpost and my point the entire time which is that the difference is that CT generally has power in the dynamic and the public don't, so having a conversation that goes from player to player rather than CT to player fails to capture that nuance

[ashen leaf]

This is just dodging at a macro level. Feedback is feedback, it does not matter where it comes from. This has nothing to do with "decisions" over Wynncraft, but rather feedback on YOUR SUGGESTION. Maybe that passed you in writing, so let me emphasize it. Giving feedback to a player is similar to giving feedback to CT. The only difference is one is altering a suggestion in writing, while the other is altering the suggestion via the game. Just because you don't like my argument, doesn't mean it can be denied by just saying there is a "power difference." The same goes for my original point. Why should CT give a damn about your feedback if all you are going to do is overgeneralize, insult, and not provide enough information? I can sit here and call your response "terrible" or say the recent changes to LRing are "awful." But, where exactly does that get us? IF A CHANGE WAS MADE, IT'S BECAUSE SOMETHING NEEDED TO CHANGE. This is where you give actual feedback, not a response. A response has no feedback, feedback contains actual information to work off of. Also, you're missing the entire word "constructive," and I didn't even think I had to bring that fact up. Anyone can throw a pile of tomatoes and call it "feedback." That doesn't make it feedback, nor does it make it worth responding or even listening to.

Now, I hope this point didn't fly high over your head, because I feel I made it very clear what I'm trying to say. This BIAS against CT gets absolutely nothing done. It does not make the relationship between the player and CT any better, and it sure as hell doesn't make changes happen any faster or make it any better for players. But, if you'd like to sit here and tell me that "This is shit" is feedback, then I'm gonna have to agree to disagree and move on with my day. Because, clearly, we have too differing of opinions. I know sure as hell telling someone they are shit at something isn't going to make them listen to me, let alone get them to listen to any changes I might offer. Maybe you're different though, should I offer up some insults and see how you respond? I'm sure you've made things in your life, and clearly you don't care what kind of feedback it is.

Also, another thing, just because CT don't play on the main server, doesn't mean they aren't testing things on their DEV server. This feels like the biggest misconception of a lifetime that just keeps getting brung up and kicked around like a decayed horse that's been bones for years now.

"if a CT is dismissive, they probably should not be communicating with the playerbase at all since being dismissive in a space expressly for critiques and feedback is counterproductive"

"poorly worded statements of "this suck" still hold merit, though they obviously don't provide a concrete change."

I love double standards

[brave lodge]

never said that they didn't test anything nor that they don't play at all (i agree with your statement, and saying CT doesn't play the game is a tired point as you say), but rather that a specific case (fallen / riftwalker changes, for example) seem out of touch with the game's balance as a whole. obviously any tweak to the meta will be seen in a negative light by the playerbase but to impact non-aspected / non-tomed players more than aspected / tomed players reads as off to me

[ashen leaf]

I don't disagree. I don't play much, or at all for that matter. But I try to keep up with feedback, because I do want to play again, I just don't have time. However, there is no way change can be made if we give useless feedback. I don't disagree that there are problems with certain archetypes, trust me, I mained boltslinger. So I agree that there are definitely some changes that need to be made, but I don't think the way people are acting are going to make that change happen ANY faster, and more than likely, it makes it far slower. If they have to wait days to get proper feedback, and scroll through thousands of messages to find said feedback because there is so much jargin inbetween, then it's going to take longer.

In fact, I don't even hate your idea of a CT PR team. Maybe less PR and more a translator between the two groups. However, it's a very common problem and it's been getting resolved relatively well. In fact, last beta was when a lot of players, including myself, fought to get more distinct and descriptive changelogs. Even moving them from the forums to the discord.

[brave lodge]

right! i agree with you there. which is why having a dedicated member of the team to sift through the shitheap and toxic wasteland that constructive feedback is might prove productive in lieu of attempting to say "players! let's try not to be too toxic :)"

players can definitely be nicer and honestly i would lead by example if i wasn't practically retired by now

[ashen leaf]

Exactly, but I don't think your other statements were very warranted. In fact, they were very much so an attack, and it's just not how we should be communicating

I agree, the more civilized and straightforward we can be, the easier athings get changed

And I don't disagree that saying, "womp womp" in response to players feedback is absolutely unprofessional and insane

Definitely a rage bait tactic

[brave lodge]

i was never attempting to paint broadstrokes claims that the CT don't listen or that they're incompetent -- i think they do a good job and i apologize if the original message came off that way (i wrote it while a little pissed myself) -- but rather point out one specific case (and a couple others, which don't need to be beaten into the ground any longer) and bring up something that i think may be useful in the future since players don't seem to be getting any nicer in the meantime

i think it feels like a lot because of that negativity bias, everyone is more likely to remember bad things that happened compared to mundane things (the more mundane an interaction is, the better when it comes to feedback imo) and truthfully i did fall into that myself.

if i were to reword my original statement it would be that the spattering of dismissive statements weigh heavier in most people's minds than a larger assortment of mundane / positive interactions and thus minimizing the negative statements by having a PR person or a translator/middleman who "will not be ragebaited" (if you want to put it that way) and isn't directly involved with the process of contributing or voting on ideas (to minimize personal attachment to said idea) may not be a terrible idea

[languid geode]

-# looking at all this...

-# I'ma be honest I am severely confused and felt very lost rn...

[brave lodge]

thus why PR is useful to not get tongue-tied or misunderstood haha

[languid geode]

The issue is the whatever rules they have...

[azure owl]

going to bed soon, so idk if i can sustain a conversation, but

if a beta came out with a severely broken, not-well-thought-out ability, i think it sets a very low bar for the CT as a whole and does not inspire confidence. pushing out entirely broken things to beta that should have been dead on ideation does not inspire confidence. wrt to the fallen changes, that would be the obvious which is that fallen is now entirely reliant on aspects and heff tomes to function.
fallen's healing as a whole is one of the rare cases where we didn't come to a proper consensus, so we purposefully pushed a very conservative option out to see where it's gonna break, so that we can actually identify the weak points much better and avoid them in the next iteration. that's not an uncommon thing to do in betas.
also, after months of hearing "please try risky things in betas and not on live", getting "don't try x in beta" just leaves a sour taste.
in terms of the broader point you were discussing of "no bad feedback", maybe there's no bad feedback, but there's definitely useless one. "This sucks" regarding a nerf gives us exactly 0 information other than the person not liking that they got nerfed. "Bad placement in the gameplay loop" - something we can actually act on.
imo useless feedback is also bad feedback, since it wastes our time and mental resources that could've been spent on planning stuff, crunching numbers, or fixing bugs, but that's up to interpretation ig.

[brisk wren]

i havent read these giant walls of text above and your whole comment but

also, after months of hearing "please try risky things in betas and not on live"

i really hope you do continue doing this (as long as you put an heavy emphasis on communicating that there are some changes (and noting what they are) that you are more "iffy" on and are expiremental, this is really what the best part of beta is, minecraft snapshots are the perfect example imo (and funnily they also use the term "expiremental" which in my opinion is far more appealing to hear as a player than "hey, remember this is just beta!")

[kind plume]

I'm not gonna pretend that ct can't react badly to things and obviously that may feel bad for you giving feedback, but this mage thing (I'm assuming entropy changes?) is a prime example of what I mentioned earlier. It is ok for us to disagree with you; however broadly your opinion may be shared in the community. We have different priorities and objectives than players a lot of the time and that's got to be acceptable. Unfortunately whenever this happens we are met with "you don't know what you're doing", or "you don't play the game" or "you never listen to feedback". The 90% of stuff that gets directly implemented because of feedback gets willingly ignored

[hollow nexus]

^

i do think that "beta" as a whole is right now the idea of "yeah this is the base concept of how it is going to work with maybe a slight numbers change"

[brisk wren]

to note specifically on entropy i think part of the problem is the reasoning it was changed that made people upset (though i really dont know anything about mage and as far as i asked arcanist doesn't care about entropy)

Earlygame meteors slowness makes it feel more powerful + also makes it more interesring

[ashen leaf]

I can agree with that, and I appreciate you seeing my side on things as well

[trim epoch]

also you don't ban people from feedback enough

seriously start feedback muting people more 😭 get gcomm out of here

[hollow nexus]

It’d just lead to more alting tbh

[trim epoch]

thats no excuse

[delicate temple]

There are people with 0 messages in guild community posting 3x posts in a row within 72 hours getting a 1:25 like to dislike ratio you are worried about the wrong minority

[trim epoch]

I still think feedback mutes aren't given out enough 😭

[hollow nexus]

I’m not saying it’s an excuse, I just think there are other solutions to clearing up the clutter than just handing out feedback muted role

[delicate temple]

ray gets ragebaited by the only moderator on constructive-feedback instead of getting muted there is no hope

[trim epoch]

its a start and something that could be done though id like to hear your soultions

[hollow nexus]

I think it’d be good to hand out feedback muted only when a user is seen spamming posts constantly, nearly daily but not for just having a bad idea and getting flamed for it.

In all honesty though, constructive feedback posting should require some sort of system to make sure that you are decently acquainted around with the discord (most likely by a minimum level according to that one bot that is currently used)

I do think there are some people that may be inexperienced with what they post and have some ideas that could come off as ragebait to some but it’s wrong to just scapegoat that all to #guild_community

[kind plume]

Its genuinly not worth it a lot of the time because despite how extremely laid back it is right now, people STILL throw around "1984", "power tripping" and "overreach"

[trim epoch]

honestly I say let them do it 😭 I dont think you should be bullied or "forced" into letting them stay
if they wanna spit it out, let then spit it out

[languid geode]

The more I look and read this...

The more it feels like I truely don't understand things at all...

-# on a more serious question tho ... What's the difference between "useful" and "useless" feedback...?

[earnest rapids]

Not slop vs slop

iykyk

[languid geode]

-# no offense but this is genuinely not a helpful answer...

[earnest rapids]

Like u don't understand what makes a post slop?

Or what do u mean

[languid geode]

Not exactly... Granted I basically lack understanding sry...

[glossy bane]

feedback discussions that come from the heart, that come from passion for the game, or from genuine desire to solve a problem, or from genuinely trying to understand something that you don't understand... those posts are the most valuable for feedback, no matter if they are made by players who know next to nothing about wynncraft yet, or by players who are very experienced, or anywhere inbetween

feedback discussion comments that come from a place of bad intentions (ragebait, trolling etc.), superficial views/thinking, shallow thinking, creating a detailed feedback post about a mechanic when you have never even played that mechanic in the game, not even for a minute, going into discussions from a place of pure anger (justified anger paired with constructive feedback is good, I'M talking about pure 100% anger here, the type of anger that makes you say very unreasonable things)... these are all scenarios that are not valuable for feedback, and oftentimes make actual good feedback reach less people, or be overlooked etc.

whatever the solutions are, the goal is to increase the amount of people in feedback posts from the 1. paragraph, and decrease the amount of people from the 2. paragraph (disclaimer, neither 1. nor 2. paragraphs are full lists, just a general idea)

• one solution is feedback mutes for extreme cases, but only if there is repeated trolling/ragebaiting, with a lot of evidence (otherwise its "1984", and that is for a reason, being lenient is better than being too harsh, so long as their trolling doesn't cause 'serious harm', but only sets back discussions for a bit)
• next is player community culture, which needs time to develop in order to then thrive (by the way, slightly allowing ragebaiting builds up resilience in the community against them, so another reason for being lenient).. but yeah, players need to the proper feedback giving abilities of each other, its a culture thing

• also, CT, player and owner/dev communication needs to be solved, CT should be able to spend less time in feedback threads, while getting at least the same amount of constructive, concise feedback that they are painfully getting right now from all over the place, with hours of reading (see CT poll threads #1400225359517192272 message)

I hate how AI-like these paragraphed answers sound nowadays

anyway, I hope that helps with understanding it

this is slop vs. not slop in more complex terms btw

[earnest rapids]

@soft veldt how do u define slop to the people

[glossy bane]

apologies for answering the question that was made for another player before you finished writing it... lol

[earnest rapids]

igkiabwu iykyk

[earnest rapids]

It's OK melon I was getting kinda hungry..

[glossy bane]

no I don't speak first letter language

[earnest rapids]

ts pmo sygau

[languid geode]

In a way I still don't rly understand... Granted I learn extremely slowly...
But ty...

[languid geode]

Don't attempt to bypass that word smh...

[languid island]

what am I supposed to be looking at?

[languid island]

literally F 451

[earnest rapids]

What word what

[languid geode]

The 3rd word in that message you posted... Just don't bypass it...

[earnest rapids]

Gurt?

[earnest rapids]

How is that a slur

[hoary anchor]

I mean, fair, but it very much felt like our complaints fell on deaf ears. The CT in that thread also made statements that showed they haven’t really played the archetype; or at least have no clue how most people play it. The playerbase needs some sort of means of knowing that our ideas and feedback is actually considered, otherwise it feels as though we are talking to a brick wall.

[hoary anchor]

Also, it can be acceptable at times, but with this specific change, there isn’t a world in which, in its current state, this change would be acceptable. As for the reasoning we got, it was to make mage builds less reliant on one specific item, Lachesism. However, reliance on it isn’t gone, and it’s just a nerf to overall QOL for riftwalker and mage in general.

Sure, you guys might have different reasoning but we are still the ones supporting and playing the game

[mystic gull]

I love my life

I am bewildered this is still alive

[mystic gull]

Agree

@wicked umbra should be the first

[hoary anchor]

You created a decent discussion

[lost zealot]

d1 hater

[mystic gull]

You too I think

I don't remember tho

[mystic gull]

Death threats over Wynn holy shit people are really braindead

[weary wadi]

bro got caught between the crossfire 😭

[true moth]

😭 😭 😭 we found nr1 gcomm hater

[mystic gull]

Holy moly L9E why are ur messages anything but useful

[mystic gull]

Indeed

[azure owl]

most of the initial comments were "no don't nerf our damage or alter our feedback loop", when we explicitly stated that was the goal. when i asked for reasoning, most of the answers boiled down to "it hasn't been like that before, are you stupid, you don't play the game". which is, duh, we're trying to do smth new, fallen's difficulty is too low for how much power it provides, though this gameplay loop was admittedly too difficult

after a couple of days we did get info like "there's awkward placement for gaining health in the gameplay loop" and "the cycle feels too short to feel good", which we can actually act upon, and you've already seen some of it

mage i can't really comment on, wasn't involved with it this cycle

[mystic gull]

If u need a channel because ur so toxic that basic general doesn't allow it, u need to self reflect homie

[hoary anchor]

Except that wasn’t our feedback

[true moth]

🥀 💔 my bad og

[dusty cove]

What's wrong with gcomm

[slender moth]

start off by muting edn drip

[true moth]

Gcomm has a lot of people who dislike ct changes and i think ts guy is #1 ct glazer

Chronic #🌎wynncraft er

[azure owl]

that is 100% what it boiled down to
obvs there was some useful stuff like tstack being hit too hard
but not much

[hoary anchor]

Our feedback was that the change completely nerfs a QOL only major ID, which is practically required to hit anything late game, and gave us an inaccessible replacement for us

The feedback was for riftwalker for the most part

[azure owl]

are you talking about rally?

[trim epoch]

I dont play riftwalker but surely entropy isn't needed

[hoary anchor]

No, entropy

[hoary anchor]

It is NEEDED

[trim epoch]

(I play monster arcanist)

[true moth]

Fallen changed are irrelevant after they killed rally they made it play the exact same but less fun 😭 😭 😭

[azure owl]

i literally said that i can't comment on mage bc i wasn't involved with it this cycle 💀

[hoary anchor]

TNA and NOL are unplayable without entropy

[trim epoch]

surely it isnt unplayable

[azure owl]

and responded to your msg abt fallen lmao

[hoary anchor]

Lol I was referring to entropy only from the start (I’m mage only)

[trim epoch]

😭 like if its chasing you you dont need entropy

if it isnt chasing you then surely you can predict where Greg moves

[hoary anchor]

It really is unplayable. Meteor is so slow without entropy

[true moth]

hav u played rw gng

[trim epoch]

nol you're probably right but nol is nol

[azure owl]

k fair enough

[trim epoch]

like when I play tna I usually just go big mac

[true moth]

😭 😭 😭 😭 😭

[trim epoch]

and just let everyone else do the killing Greg job

[true moth]

“big mac is badass wdym”

[trim epoch]

but im one of the people who actually like playing tank

so really, who wins here?

[azure owl]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/779773227613945866/1344478828197576764/togif.gif

[true moth]

Everybody since you are glue and can afk the boss

[azure owl]

greg overate 😔 🙏

[true moth]

I hate that gif so god damn much

Convinced everyone who uses that is an avid wynnfics chatter

[azure owl]

wynn WHAT

why am i surprised

ofc that exists

[true moth]

Dam u dont know the lore💔 💔 best not to look into it

I kind of dont care about whats done with fallen like its probably still playable and fine its still just bewildering to me you got rid of rally in exchange for buffing an auto heal ability to make up for it. but i suppose youre nerfing it again anyway

[azure owl]

intox being this op was always temporary
but yeah, there's some other options we're looking at rn

[true moth]

Fair

Idk fallen has got boring for me aside from idol anyway so not my concern

[hoary anchor]

Yeah idc abt fallen tbh

[true moth]

I just hope whoever's in charge of aco doesnt remove shatter and then just kill single totem aco

Me when the only way for aco to have skill expression is through a bug 🥀 💔

[weary wadi]

fuck burger

[weary wadi]

should i report you for bug abusing?

[brisk wren]

😂 and people tried to tell me that fallen was harder than acolyte

[brisk wren]

are you talking about blood refund ponto?

[true moth]

yea

[brisk wren]

i guess it’s pretty op on reso

[true moth]

Oh its op for sure

[brisk wren]

i don’t play reso but i have the bug happen even when im not trying to do it even tho i know how to do it lol

i imagine it’s far better on reso

[true moth]

Its just funny because dtotem is like so little input requirement for more dmg on every raid except nol

[weary wadi]

yeah it is just so funny

i think most people play aco would encounter at least once

[true moth]

Well i mean

Requires u to play shatter aco which is like. only barely viable on reso and abso

to find it accidentally

[weary wadi]

you can find it on dtotem

[true moth]

what

nvm actually .

[mystic gull]

It very much is

Ur playing on low health for half ur cycle

Like very low health

[barren gull]

hey now coloring inside the lines is difficult for some

[true moth]

they are similarly not difficult to play icl

[barren gull]

bug and dtotem take the skill out of the class, real ones remained on beamspam

[true moth]

shatter+bug makes it way more fun .

[mystic gull]

Wynn just kinda can't be hard, u need to go to monu for that

[weary wadi]

shatter aco > fallen > dtotem aco

[true moth]

dtotem is just boring as hell

[barren gull]

also true

[true moth]

Somewhat but also like. difficulty of a playstyle does not at all correlate to dmg output atm

which i think it should at least somewhat correlate

difficulty/actions per sec rather

[wicked umbra]

crazy work

[barren gull]

eh less so actions per second because you can have lower input classes be more difficult (Fallen vs Acolyte Beamspam)

[wicked umbra]

me when i block my opponent in an argument because my ideas suck doodoo donkey shit then say they should be muted 🤣

[barren gull]

Feedback threaders try not to speedrun every argumentative and logical fallacy challenge

[brisk wren]

I mean double totem doesn’t really do that much damage wise directly though it’s just that it’s double blood pool regeneration

acolyte kinda feels unplayable without using dtotem lol

[barren gull]

direct damage loss gets replaced by the 20% EC vuln for your 3 teammates so it's whatever

(How is EC nerf on beta so lenient)

[weary wadi]

double totem does more than shatter for less effort

[brisk wren]

i asked for 24->12 range and nerfing damage by like 80%

[barren gull]

still BIS vulnerability application both in potency and uptime

[lost zealot]

what did i do!?

[brisk wren]

tbf the crying about acolyte should probably come to a stop at some time

every time shaman is a little strong people are like oh no

[weary wadi]

you getting labeled and thats p discriminatory action imma be real

[brisk wren]

i agree EC is overtuned but a decent part of acolyte being strong rn is the free MOTL

shaman needs to be strong if it’s gonna have 60% base res

[barren gull]

the world if shaman could be strong but it not being due to free omnipotence

[lost zealot]

its honestly insanely hurtful to be branded as an outlaw like sircmt

[brisk wren]

i think it’s fine if shaman is strong support wise just get rid of non ritualist getting free motl

which seems to be what they are gonna do in rit rework so that’s good

and also apparently people pick motl over bullwhip on summoner as well which yeah i can also understand

[jaunty night]

Nah man just embrace it like me

[brisk wren]

but then they say that bullwhip is skipped cause it’s bad and in reality motl is just broken for how free it is

[soft veldt]

Yo

[vast briar]

worst idea 2025

from being in wynncord the community has the worst fucking ideas

id trust a coked up rat with a yes/no button in a cage way more than the wynncraft community

[brisk wren]

bit far fetched

#1019649786799996980 usually has decent to good suggestions

[vast briar]

honestly no imo

a lot of them are really slop except a few good ones

[brisk wren]

sometimes it’s like what the hell am i reading but not too much

[vast briar]

don’t even mention ct trying to interact with people here (they all suck)

[brisk wren]

well there are some ct doing a good job

[vast briar]

i’m not saying the ct are bad. most are literally fine except a FEW exceptions it’s just the people that talk here really suck. you are far better off in ask ims at questions

[brisk wren]

uh no they are kinda the same ppl im/at/at reworks

not sure how much else term would need to hear before just straight up calling names to understand the problem i was talking about earlier

bc it goes a little further than “ct are players just like you”

sometimes i think that saying “they don’t play the game” is pretty harsh but then when i see some of the things certain CT say it makes me truly believe it sometimes

don’t get me wrong i said this multiple times when changelog came out but for example AT did a rly good job on this update yet it was sadly overshadowed by a bunch of other super shitty changes

and then there’s certain CT members trying to justify extremely braindead decisions and excuse them

like sorry, if you aren’t able to tell by design before getting a dev to work on something that something extreme to the case of removing free character slots from players and then defend it by saying “ok but players have the option to remove their character or spend all their LE for a rank just to keep playing the game” i think you should leave the CT

you can tell the difference because for example tealy and sockmower put a very heavy emphasis on the fact they had at no point been involved with lootrun p2w tokens and it’s obvious they didn’t want it to happen, they’re not trying to defend something stupid

[mystic gull]

Nah hes just an asshole, no discrimination in the truth

[wicked umbra]

do you just think everyone who disagrees with you is an asshole and deserves to be muted ?

[jaunty night]

He's saying the quiet part outloud

[kind plume]

Its simply an opinion and a totally valid one

Just because it doesn't line up with yours it doesn't decrease its validity. Both lr tokens and class slot reduction has been explained by salted pretty well in his official threads and I have given a huge description of my take here the other day. It is fine to disagree and have your own take of course but you can't say we should cast out anyone who doesn't agree with you

[brisk wren]

it’s not “disagrees with me” as clearly it was disagreed by the whole community to the point it was changed

[hoary anchor]

^

I agree with that take. Certain people can get mad, but when it’s the entire community affected, it’s clearly an issue

Exactly what we are seeing with entropy changes atm

Y’all might have your reasons but no-one who actually plays riftwalker or arcanist thinks they are good

[brisk wren]

i don’t think it’s to that degree but i can see that many are unhappy with entropy change

[hoary anchor]

Ask any late game riftwalker player; they will tell you this change is bad

Arcanist to less effect, as they don’t rely on lach as much

[wicked umbra]

they weren't really well explained at all actually

character slots were literally just explained by "We used to give a lot of free slots but at the cost of making deletion extremely slow. This system has always been a bit unclear and frustrating, especially the more you progressed through the game. We're simplifying it: New players (only those who join after this update goes live) will now start with 3 character slots."

"Despite the fact that only a tiny portion of the playerbase even creates more than 3 characters, you guys told us you found it important for new players to be able to test every class"

i dont think ive ever heard a single person ever say "character deletion is too slow! i'd happily have less slots if i could just delete my character faster!"

deletion speed just seems like an artificially imposed limitation (at least from community perspective) because (if its done the way i think its done) would it not just be querying a table to delete an entry for that character?

even if the cost / size of player data storage being decreased by lowering the number of character slots across the board is the actual reason, even salted's own figures completely contract this because (by his own admission) just under half the players don't make more than a single character lol

[fallow widget]

I wouldn't say that lr tokens and class slots removal has been explained to the point that people completely "understand" it
I don't think any amount of explaining could do that frankly, because nobody wanted either of those things in the first place. You can't convince someone to want a dead rat on top of their steak unless they're mentally ill.
So what would actually help then? If explaining falls on deaf ears, then what should be done instead? I have no idea and don't envy the position of needing to figure that out one bit.
Still vying for their removal here. Rank-based AP too.

[mystic gull]

No

[wicked umbra]

so then why should i be muted ?

[mystic gull]

Cuz ur pretty much cancer and aids in any feedback post i saw u interact on

[wicked umbra]

<@&268142859327242242> this user calling me cancer ??? im giving genuine feedback

idk why you've been freaking out on people in your threads but its kinda insane that someone asking you if you're joking = they are "cancer and aids" 🔥

[mystic gull]

Not just my threads mate

Any

[fallow widget]

guy's maybe a little abrasive but really he's just trying to contribute like everyone else is

[mystic gull]

Go to the beggining of the post and tell me that again

[weak oak]

it... really doesnt come across that way

[mystic gull]

He lowkey deserves a feedback mute but i don’t wanna clog any discussion with our useless argument so lets not bicker @‚ye

[fallow widget]

that sounds fair

[weak oak]

i would absolutely love for you to give more feedback like this

[wicked umbra]

read what i said before dawg,,, genuinely multiple people thought this post was trolling because you were cussing people out and blocking anyone who disagreed

[fallow widget]

some things are better left aside to stay with the topic on hand

[lost zealot]

guys can we get this locked this is breaking rule #2

[fallow widget]

it could ig

[weak oak]

eh its being used productively when people arent discussing eachothers level of productivity in it

[jaunty night]

oh a productivty discussion

https://tenor.com/view/job-application-gif-3515684064707868771

(Not you specifically)

[soft veldt]

[kind plume]

This doesn't change anything about what I said though. It's still a completely valid opinion to have that it's a fine change. You saying that anyone justifying such "brain-dead decisions" should leave the CT lol is exactly what I'm saying about the community rioting when someone disagrees with them

[kind plume]

The reasoning was literally right there, you even quoted it. Yes deletion speed was a limitation because of the amount of class slots that were afforded to everyone

The reasoning was precisely that: way faster deletion speed and less class slots. Also definitely read my earlier message about class slots in this thread it has a lot of info in it

Nobody ever claimed storage space was a reason either, I keep seeing it and I wonder where it came from 😂

We obviously want ranks to be more attractive and as a free game, class slots are one of the best perks of ranks. 3 entire playthroughs before needing to spend any money on a rank that could easily be hundreds of hours. They also give you the opportunity to get the shares to get it ingame during those 3 long playthroughs.

I'm kinda repeating what I said in my other message.. definitely read that

[mystic gull]

I blocked you 19 hours after the post has been started. So no. I've not been blocking people. I blocked you. Literally only you 💀

[violet plover]

so why am i blocked

[mystic gull]

Oh right and you I forgot

Damn you adhd

[violet plover]

😐

[mystic gull]

Honestly I don't remember why but I guess there was a reason since I usually don't block people

[brisk wren]

but don't you think there is a problem when the entirety of your playerbase wholeheartedly agrees something is bad, it's very obvious that it's bad whether or not you hold the opinion that it is, and yet someone keeps defending it?

if a CT holds the opinion that a change that is so simple yet so horrible for your game is "fine" and they justify it by giving stupid reasons like telling players that they can just delete their characters, it's worrying what other decisions they are making that we don't know about that are more simple than this

and you know what, i will give salted credit because in his mind, this change doesn't actually lose any money right? they either buy a rank and keep playing, or they don't!

but that is completely dismissed if you look at the fact that it could potentially hurt player retention really bad

salted justifies this change by showing us statistics that a lot of players don't make more than multiple characters

when you're using percentages in a game that has millions of unique logins, or tens of thousands unique logins per month (i assume), you are shooting yourself in the foot

take CR as an example, they have millions of concurrent players

one day they made a stupid post saying "hey, according to our stats, most players like upgrading cards beyond their deck. so we are adding a new level! it's free, but it's actually not because it's incredibly hard to obtain to the point it's basically paywalled. enjoy!"

[kind plume]

As I said in my original message the reason for people not liking the change is because it removes something that used to be there. It's never going to be popular lol. Popularity and agreement doesn't always constitute a good change

Buffs to any mainstream build will mostly always be agreed with by the community and most nerfs will be disliked but it doesn't necessarily mean either were good or bad changes

[brisk wren]

to a certain point, maybe, to me it was more for player retention, because these changes don't actually effect anyone other than players that join post update

[kind plume]

I am not agreed with by a lot of you because you like more stuff being free (totally valid lol) but I think it's fair to pay not that much (or save up in-game currency) for more class slots if you've enjoyed 3 entire playthroughs of the game and you're clearly invested in playing wynncraft for the long term

I think we deserve those purchases because we create something pretty amazing (totally biased opinion lol) but fr I was a Wynncraft player that believed the server deserves my money to become bigger and better before I was a team member

[brisk wren]

i agree, i just think there's better ways to do that (making we bomb post soon..)

[kind plume]

Less free stuff always sucks but as salted said in his original post although it may suck he thinks we have been incredibly generous (probably too much so) with class slots

And that's the real "shooting itself in the foot" moment tbh 😂

[brisk wren]

i bought champion 10 mins after salted's post

not because i felt pity for him not having a car but i was actually considering it to support the server

champ spots were nice (even tho its gone) but i still think it was worth since i spent a lot of time up until now on wynn

and i get free tm slots after update so it's a win

these small things that add up make people want to support your server, but when you create a problem and then fix it with money it's a different thing

[kind plume]

Yeah I never got to buy champion before I joined I was a typical hero

Proffing my way to 98 in all for completion with zero bombs 😭

[brisk wren]

same i got all 100 4 years ago with no gxp gear and basically little to no bombs

linny my goat making profs better step by step...

[brisk wren]

anyways i think this is something to consider overall, definitely more potential to add further monetization when done right but i guess we will only know after the fact

[kind plume]

I agree. It's only an issue because we are removing something though realistically

If the server was opened today and it has 3 class slots for defaults it wouldn't be raised as an issue

But removing stuff sucks

Trouble is that if you've got a 10 year+ history and you made mistakes early on that are hurting the monetisation then it's gotta be addressed some time

[trim epoch]

heres what i don't get
why are more class slots and faster class deletion time mutually exclusive?

[fallow widget]

Wait so it's not even a storage issue? It was just to make ranks more attractive?
And no, nobody considers faster class deletion to be worth losing character slots over. Those things seem unrelated if anything for the vast majority of us. Monetizing something that used to be free is never a popular decision, and never will be.

I can't help but wonder how many of the controversial changes in the initial changelog were known that they were going to be so deeply unpopular
Class slots being taken away in an attempt to resell them to us obviously wouldn't have been expected to have been viewed highly, but what about LR Tokens? Rank-based AP?

seems to me that LR Tokens and rank-based AP were advertised as cool new features and that the backlash they got was unexpected

[glossy bane]

^

(true not just for character slots, but many other things in this update)

[jaunty night]

I see most of ya complaining about the monetization changes, but I scant see any suggestions to otherwise improve their profitability. What good is feedback without a suggestion for what else they're supposed to do, they aren't going to make you pay for playing the game itself, its in the nature of free to play requiring some form of money generation. All these feedback posts are just complaints hiding behind the veneer of concern.

So please, what then else should they add/change/do to bring in more money to the server that won't have a single person complaining?

[fallow widget]

Was there not an entire day where both feedback channels were flooded with posts suggesting alternative monetization methods?

Go back a week or 2 and see

[jaunty night]

No there really isn't, atleast not a flood, 90% of all feedback posts are some kind of complaint one way or another

Mind that is a totally arbitrary number on the percentage, but I assure you the complaints this thread have mirror very similar elements to all of them

[kind plume]

That is just the design philosophy that they had. Salted said that in the forum post. The tradeoff for lots of free slots was long deletion time to make more class slots attractive.

[kind plume]

Let's not willingly misrepresent it. There was no attempt to "resell them" to you. Nobody loses their current perk and that was made abundantly clear.

I already said a few times that yes removing something will always be unpopular, though it doesn't speak to its validity as a change.

Almost any monetisation change will always get negative reception just because more free stuff is better and paying for stuff costs you something lmao

[fallow widget]

that is true yeah

well, the latter 2 points

[kind plume]

There have definitely been some useful suggestions but I've also seen a lot of "just tell us you want money and send a donation link". As if that would ever do anything lol

[fallow widget]

first point I still disagree with
something was taken away and offered back only if wynn got money from someone somewhere, that's taking and reselling even if that wasn't the initial intent
I'd say that's one of the main reasons so many people had a problem with it, besides the whole thing where new players wouldn't have enough slots for all classes

even though it doesn't affect the existing players, it still very much came off the wrong way

[kind plume]

Reselling to you would mean we take away something away that you have and then sell the same thing back to you

Which is not what has been done. So there's some misunderstanding about the definition of reselling

The people that have to pay are not ones who have ever been afforded the original benefit. Nothing is "resold"

[fallow widget]

that is a valid arguement as much as I don't like it

[wicked umbra]

like i said, i don't think many people would be deleting their classes lol

even if you think it's a valid tradeoff (100% not lol), deletion time doesn't seem like something wynn has a serious limitation on (since its your db).

i read through this message (assuming its this one since i couldnt find any mention of class slots earlier than this) and this doesn't describe why the deletion speed has any bearing on the number of character slots, and doesnt even explain deletion speed as a limitation for that matter

my whole point is that this tradeoff makes no sense? we're getting less slots for a faster deletion time, but the deletion time doesnt make a single difference because people wouldn't need to delete characters as much if they had more base slots lol

[kind plume]

You literally just explained the logic yourself. I also explained it to someone else a few messages up

[wicked umbra]

and i just said the logic makes 0 sense lol

we wouldn't need faster delete time if you didn't lower the slots??

the slots have been decreased and then we're being told that faster deletion time solves this problem? where is the initial problem that requires lowering the slots lol

if there's a genuine reason to decrease the slots then yeah, that makes sense and its a good compromise if there's an actual issue to be solved

but we're just being told the slots are decreased because "43% of players dont make more than 1 character".

so like... if they dont make more than one character why are we halving the amount of characters they can make?? they've only made one 😭

[jaunty night]

There have been how many reduce class deletion timer threads?

[wicked umbra]

this is a non issue

[kind plume]

But that's precisely the point. The philosophy that it originally had to make ranks attractive was high deletion time and lots of slots.

So yes faster deletion time because you have less slots

[wicked umbra]

and why do we have less slots in the first place

[kind plume]

I've said it countless times now this seems like you're willfully ignoring it

I've also never mentioned anything database, performance or storage related yet it keeps getting said 😭

[wicked umbra]

point it out then because it's not very clear

[kind plume]

So that ranks are more attractive for players that are clearly invested in Wynncraft, where I think it's probably reasonable to donate

In the message you quoted, in messages after that and messages today to others I said that

[wicked umbra]

so that was what i was saying

[kind plume]

The logic that because barely anyone new uses them why remove them is flawed

[wicked umbra]

??? if someone gets 5 level 100s and wants to start a new playthrough they have to buy a rank or delete one

i get its to promote ranks but do you not see how it feels kinda cheap just saying "well deletion time is faster!" as if somehow that makes it better lol

[kind plume]

You know that, obviously the people that are using them are in the more upper eschelon of players invested in Wynncraft and may buy a rank to get that perk 🤔

We gave the exact logic why deletion timer was so long in the past which is: because we always gave a lot of free class slots

[wicked umbra]

yeah but my point is that going forward its just a limitation applied to artificially push newer players more into buying a rank

word salad ass sentence i had to fix ts

[jaunty night]

Yea? Veteran players have stuff new players dont, what's new about that?

[kind plume]

So is everything lmao, why not give them 15 at base!

They won't use them so it doesn't matter right?

[wicked umbra]

well yes but you didn't add perks to a rank, you took them away lol

you didn't make it better to have vip or higher, you just made it worse to not have a rank

infact buying a rank lower than champ is still worse than buying it before this update

why wouldn't you just add to the ranks to make them more appealing than remove from unrankeds to make it more strict

same logic as services like Netflix adding ads to their lower tiers and saying "well hey, on higher tiers you get more!"

[hoary anchor]

^

I agree with ye here, this is essentially getting more money through shrinkflation

[fallow widget]

we get that the deletion time was lessened to compensate for fewer slots somehow
it's just that none of us understand how those 2 things are connected for the majority of players
there ISN'T a logic that anyone can recognize for it

[unreal flare]

Entitled af comparing wynncraft which is pretty much self sufficient currently to a multi billion dollar company.

6 classes was just unnecessary for beginners. And now, if you keep playing, you can easy buy ranks with le. Id have set it to 2 classes and it would have been enough for beginners. Gotta make money for the game to exist.

You can argue that they are doing too much for the game which makes the costs explode. But on the other hand you just want more and better free stuff all the time.

[wicked umbra]

https://tenor.com/view/theres-no-limit-to-the-glaze-flight-riding-ftc-glazed-donut-gif-13467296479651443764

[weak oak]

if the tradeoff for getting better new things is making the old things worse i'd rather the quality just stays the same

[wicked umbra]

you could just as easily double character slots for all ranks and it would be far more appealing and cause far less backlash

not a hard line of thinking that making the experience more limited for newer players = people will not like your changes

[lost zealot]

less incentive for ranks then

[wicked umbra]

i mean that's literally what they did in this update

before:

after:

+$3
-3 slots

the update of all time...

[lost zealot]

i think that creates mroe incentive

[wicked umbra]

meh i'm of the opinion that giving more incentives to buy something is better than giving less incentives to not buy

[unreal flare]

Would not be .ore appealing. New players dont even care for 6 slots.

[wicked umbra]

if people don't care about more than 1 slot they're not going to buy a rank

we should just limit people to 1 slot! holy glaze...

[unreal flare]

Exactly

[fallow widget]

Why do you think more slots isn't more appealing to new players?

[wicked umbra]

https://tenor.com/view/vegito-vegito-gansta-vegito-suit-drip-vegito-bait-used-to-be-believable-gif-315651423676567245

[unreal flare]

Because they do not use more than 3 slots. More slots only start getting interesting once players are already invested into the game. And with those changes, they now can play to unlock more slots.

[hexed saffron]

is insults and shit like this really necessary if you're actually arguing honestly

just raising tensions for no reason

[fallow widget]

And some players don't want to pay irl money, save up all the emeralds they get across the playthroughs they are allowed to have to start with, or grind out enough emeralds because guess what, there was 0 warning that you had to pay you in-game life's savings for rank to get enough slots to have every class the server has to offer

[lost zealot]

if they dont care for more slots the store wants them to care for other perks

[unreal flare]

Also all those "end p2wynn" names legit iq at room temperature. Sorry but it just bothers me. Its a free game where you can spend thousands of hours on classes wothout paying a dime for it. Yet people expect all of this for free for everyone without the needs to pay for staff server or anything basically.

[fallow widget]

I think it's fine at 5 rn, but that's the bare minimum

[unreal flare]

Based on statistics, 3 should be the minimum. Everything above is just a gift.

[fallow widget]

no, we just want pay2win gone or reduced, and want new players to have enough class slots to try every class without needing to delete another one
I think this is completely reasonable

the only reason I still got this name is because I think more might be able to be done

we completely support the game having sources of income, it can't function without that

[unreal flare]

That was also the reason i said it should be set to 5 classes when the update first dropped. I still feel like 5 classes should be correct.

Yet there are often giant gaps between reality and thinking. The statistic shows, that more than 3 isnt needed for beginners.

[wicked umbra]

gonner's sources:

[fallow widget]

ye
whatever your name is
tealy had a good point about you, you have what I think is a legit argument but you're going about it the worst way possible

[lost zealot]

that same argument goes for like gacha games

[unreal flare]

Updates and player support are just getting too expensive. Now the server needs more funding. After fruma releases, we can maybe argue with staff to turn it down a little with updates and stuff. Than the monetization shouldnt be upped again.

[fallow widget]

you are shooting yourself and everyone who agrees with you in the foot every time you start typing so please think through what you type a little more

[lost zealot]

you can play them for free sure

[fallow widget]

not what we're primarily concerned about
some may be against it but certainly not me
I just don't want it to be more effective to give wynn the number on the back than it is to play it
selling shares on the tm alr was uncomfortably close

[unreal flare]

Gatcha games are legit: pay atleast 4000€ or you wont ever be able to compete. Wynn is byfar not that harsh with monetazation.

But the same goes for each and every f2p game. They need money aswell. And only very few have a playerbase huge enough to support only via skins.

[fallow widget]

that and shares don't have the chance to just obliterate trade market prices so I don't care about them as much, they don't actually generate anything new, they just take from willing buyers

[unreal flare]

Wdym, more updates = higher costs = more monetazation needed.

If you want less p2w, you have to expect fewer updates and player support.

[fallow widget]

I was talking to ye there

[unreal flare]

Oh sorry

Thats what i didnt knew what you meant 😂

[fallow widget]

he hasn't done much apart from insult people even if I agree with him on this topic...

tbh I'd be way more accepting of the pay2win if it benefitted many people at once like bombs/totems do

but loaned AP, tightened class slot limitations, and lr tokens are more on the selfish side and I find them far more problematic
take the world event tokens they adding now for example, I don't really have a problem with them

[lost zealot]

i agree with the changes, but to argue that wynncraft as it is rn isnt in some form pay to win is wrong

[unreal flare]

Lr tokens are byfar less impactful than shares i think.

First off, noone will buy shares to use in lootruns. People will most likely buy shares off tm to lr with. So it actually benefits the f2p players in lootruns. P2w players will get more out of bought shares tho, since their price will increase (which was prob the point of the update -> make shares more valueable so more people buy them).
Loaned ap are a problem in raids, but on fresh starts they feel very nice. Its fun.
Class slots, well yeah already said my oppinion.

[unreal flare]

Nonono, wynmcraft is 100% pay to win.

It has to be to stay afloat.

If it wouldnt be, it would be gone years ago.

[fallow widget]

I'm still not comfortable with the $ -> shares -> lr tokens -> new items conversion

[lost zealot]

i still think they should fire some of those managers

[lost zealot]

yeah im not a fan that shares can now generate new liquid emeralds from raids and lrs

[fallow widget]

was letting you just buy lr pulls and rrs with minimal effort behind them
way better now but I'd still prefer it gone

raid tokens too but they're not as bad, not by a long shot

[unreal flare]

I just argued, that wynncrafts p2w is pretty tame compared to many other minecraft servers or gatcha games

[fallow widget]

Yes, I know it's tame. But I, as well as many others, don't care that it's tame in comparison to other games or servers. We care that it's there at all, or there in comparison to what it was like before.

we don't think it being not as bad as others is a valid excuse is what I'm saying

[unreal flare]

Gotta remember that those tokens also have a cost behind them. If mythics get too cheap, noone will use them cause not worth it.

Market will regulate itself but mythics will become a little cheaper and shares more expensive.

[unreal flare]

Bro, i remember old vip town, 10 years back. That shit was more p2w than shares are today 😂

[fallow widget]

good thing it's gone then
I not been playing long enough that I'd have seen it
my first time playing was after the Silent Expanse

[unreal flare]

Yeah, game came a very long way. It reinvented itself atleas 2 times by now.
But that is expensive and needs to be funded. If there werent p2w player back then in vip town, you could have never even started wynn. Think about it.

So it was a good thing to exist, cause if it did not, you would have never get to play the game.

Same thing goes for the next players joining in 5 years or so.

[fallow widget]

you are completely right here no matter how much I dislike that this is completely 100% right

I want Wynn to keep existing because I like it, but at the same time I won't play it if it gets to the point that paying players have undeniable obvious advantage over those that don't
I don't care if I only need to pay $5 to stay "viable", I wasn't being asked to cough that up before I and refuse to take it and would just leave instead
been on a similar rodeo before, saw the writing on the wall, left before it started getting too bad

as long as it stays feeling optional and that I'm not at a disadvantage for not paying up every so often I guess I'm fine

[unreal flare]

Thats a honorable point. Tho not all players will pay the server if it doesnt directly benefit them.
I myself have a sb subscription i dont even cancel even if im not playing actively. Just to support.

But reality is, most wont ever spend. Even if the server needs it.

[fallow widget]

something of a moral thing? I think games shouldn't be doing that bs
I'd be willing to buy a rank myself to support the game if I trusted it to stay the kind of game I'd play

[unreal flare]

I feel like, now that you can buy ranks with le, it should be even less optional to pay. Tho with increased share prices you get more whales and dolphins to pay

[unreal flare]

How many hours you got?

[hoary anchor]

Hey, I never said it was a bad thing for wynncraft to make more money, however I do wish that it was made through better means.

[fallow widget]

being able to buy ranks with le is a good thing
but like
you won't be buying it with le when you're starting, which is what a lot of the rank stuff is marketed towards
feels like p2w in disguise almost

[fallow widget]

1.3k across all chars
deleted an old one I don't use, may display closer to 1k on my profile now (SunbreakTitan07)

funniest part is I WAS considerign buying like Hero rank right before the patch lol

patch done spooked me

[unreal flare]

1300 hours for free... I mean... What would that cost in...
Watching films in cinema
Bowling
Airhockey
P2p games (average 40hrs story)

[fallow widget]

A lot! Which is part of why I like Wynncraft!
Wynncraft is a very very good deal

[unreal flare]

Yes but thats why it needs p2w, cause that makes 20% of the players to pay for the other 80%. Yet those 80% are the ones complaining the most

[kind plume]

Which repeats another one of my points which is that it feels bad and will be negatively received but doesn't make it a bad or invalid decision 🤷

Again, if Wynncraft released today with 3 base class slots it wouldn't be an issue. It's not prohibitive to have 3 entire playthroughs and it's fair to donate after such imo. With a long history it can be pretty hard to undo mistakes like that and they can hurt the server long term.

I do not have Wynncraft data for this so it's entirely my personal opinion but I've worked on a lot of Minecraft servers and generally people who have invested their money in the server are more likely to come back and give it another try even if they stopped playing. Being overly generous to non donators can tank newer player retention because theres nothing that takes their fancy on the store.

[unreal flare]

Mindblowing. Really....

[fallow widget]

this also feels valid although I'm unsure if I agree with the stats
I feel like higher % has paid, but a lesser % pays enouhg for it to matter

[kind plume]

This is not really a complete though 😔 . I'm tired and I think it's quite circular now unfortunately

[unreal flare]

Usually 20% of all players cover 80% of the cost. This is a pretty accurate rule of thumb. Tho once it comes to the top 1% it gets even more insane

[fallow widget]

ok yeah now I think about it more I can get behind that

[kind plume]

You are misunderstanding. It's not compensating, as salted said:

The reason deletion timer was so long was because we gave many free slots. Reducing free slots means we can remove a lot of this timer which was disliked by many.

The direction of causality is the other way around which is why you've got the confusion about the link the other way

[fallow widget]

I mean if it's just a QoL thing meant to ease the downgrade new players are getting in comparison to older players, then yeah that makes sense.
It did seem a LOT like it was meant to somehow compensate though, and evidently to people besides just me
-# admittedly seems to be more of a misread than a miscommunication on Salted's part

Thinking about it, the only thing I think that could be called misleading in the original patch notes is Share pricing changes, was said to be a bit more than 1USD and ended up being like 1.50$
one thing out of like a hundred still

[kind plume]

Unfortunately this would do literally the opposite of what you're saying.

People simply don't need this many characters lol. Adding something you don't need any of removes any reason to buy ranks at all. Making the number bigger does not linearly increase with the likelihood of a sale because you reach a point where any same person knows they will never need more. Your suggestion would kill any reason to buy any rank ever

I do understand that you have no reason to understand this side of creating a game which is why I've been trying to explain as best I can

[fallow widget]

I hate it but Term is right in that new players don't ABSOLUTELY NEED 6 char slots or whatever
still, I find it way more decent that they at least get 5 so that they can at least try every class wynn has to offer
hence why I stopped advocating for more slots once we hit 5, that's the minimum we "need"/want

[unreal flare]

Id say it doesnt negate all reasons to buy a rank ever. But it will lower the amount of people who do.

[wicked umbra]

my point isnt that unranked people should have more class slots. i think 6 was fine and 5 is a bit shit but this is not my main gripe.

the problem as i see it is that instead of adding to ranks to make them more rewarding to buy, you're reducing the perks of unranked and existing low ranks to steer people more towards buying more expensive ranks

by wynn's own metrics, 65% of the playerbase is under the proposed 3 player slots and 71% is under 5. if people want to buy a rank for more slots they will, but reducing the slots for existing ranks going forward just makes it look you're giving people who want to buy ranks less for a higher price (vip got -3 slots but is now +$3 base price (which also was not even the real base price because wynn did deceptive marketting with the "30% off permanent sale"))

[kind plume]

I agree it feels bad when doing that but past mistakes kinda need correcting at some point and the earlier the better 🤷

We basically never touch the store lol. If basically zero new players ever use the class slots they had, then having extra is a completely redundant rank perk for most players. It's quite similar to if we did what you said and doubled all the ranks class slots. VIP would have more slots than most people would ever use so class slots is a redundant perk on all higher ranks (for most)

[native jay]

plus, weren't those points already addressed, multiple times? aren't you just repeating yourself at this point?

[wicked umbra]

im not literally saying double the slots but you get the idea that reducing the perks, upping the price, then saying that its to incentivise buying a rank is a bit counterintuitive no?

reducing the perks then increasing the price in the same stroke is kinda crazy

[wicked umbra]

yes that's what i said

[native jay]

making a point with an example and then saying you're not making your point with that example you just used is a very self-defeating argument

[wicked umbra]

im not literally saying double the slots

[wicked umbra]

the point was that doubling the slots to incentivise a rank looks far better than reducing the slots of not having that rank

[native jay]

and it was directly explained why that would be problematic

[wicked umbra]

and i said "im not literally saying double the slots"? because i dont think that'd be a good idea

[wicked umbra]

it was an example to show this?

[wicked umbra]

so what's your point??? i used an example then you said my example wasnt feasible and i agreed and said it was an example to make a point 😭

[fallow widget]

we do be repeating ourselves a bit

[barren gull]

maybe one more red underline will do it

[native jay]

it fails at making its point because the point being made is flawed, which is what was directly addressed by term

[wicked umbra]

he's underlining the word example like i didnt say it was an example to make a point 😭✌️

[native jay]

there's reasoning against the point you are trying to make, so saying that it's just an example to make a point doesn't actually change anything and only really undermines your argument further

[wicked umbra]

what reasoning??? LMFAO im saying that doing a buff to ranks looks better than nerfing unranked is this hard to understand??

[native jay]

.

[wicked umbra]

in what world can anyone argue against that, its deadass PR 101 LOL

[native jay]

.

[wicked umbra]

.

[barren gull]

Oh boy I sure do love (word bloat, probably due to a miscommunication or misunderstanding between the two parties) followed by "argument invalidated"

[native jay]

he went out of his way to explain the reason why something like that example could not be done

right in direct response to you

explaining why the point was flawed

[wicked umbra]

and i said it was an example for the sake of making a point and i dont actually believe you should double class slots 💀🤣

[native jay]

and something like that, given the current circumstance, was infeasible

[barren gull]

maybe one more lap

[wicked umbra]

yeah like i said 5 minutes ago LMFAOOO

[native jay]

yeah, nah

[wicked umbra]

i been trying to type out something else but you're just acting like i believe we should double class slots (i dont) and continue insisting that im saying it

[barren gull]

me when my prime directive in the argument is to disprove the opposition first ask questions later

[wicked umbra]

im saying if class slots were doubled, people would probably be happy and not upset with it (because they get more stuff) than if you took away slots (they get less stuff)

revolutionary public perception argument

also i get we got bills to pay but you can clearly see why this would probably annoy people:
VIP: $9.23 -> $16.49, 9 total slots -> 6 total slots
VIP+: $21.55 -> $30.79, 11 total slots -> 7 total slots
HERO: $46.19 -> $65.99, 14 total slots -> 9 total slots

even though some current prices have the """sale""", its been there for probably 3 years atp and is DEFINITELY illegal to deceptively advertise this kind of sale so im not gonna use the """base""" prices on current store

[native jay]

literally said I was aware it was just an example being used to make a point and not an honest belief

multiple times

[wicked umbra]

so what was the point of saying it was unfeasible if i already said it was unfeasible 💀

[native jay]

already said why

[unreal flare]

This is true. Having a permanent "sale" is indeed illegal and scummy business.

But we all just hate on -1 classlot or lr tokens 🤷🏼‍♂️

[native jay]

multiple times

[wicked umbra]

"having an permanent sale is illegal, but we should just focus on this other lesser point"

constructive feedback industry plant

[wicked umbra]

you said why the point was unfeasible (yeah it is i said it in the response to terminated) but not why you mentioning it was unfeasible was relevant

[native jay]

that's like a young kid asking "why" after every answer until you get to the point of the endless "because it is" "why?" "because it is" "why?" loop.

such a disingenuous argument to make. I'm out

[wicked umbra]

??? 😭 you came in and started saying my point wasnt feasible (which i said myself) then kept insisting and now you're leaving because i asked you why you thought i genuinely believed class slots should be doubled and im asking why you thought it was relevant to point it out when i said i didnt think it was 😭

[native jay]

way to misrepresent me, but I just do not care enough to correct you at this point

[pliant topaz]

Feedback has been constructed

[barren gull]

what a productive engagement

surely, in time, we may eventually learn of why any of that happened

[wicked umbra]

making a point with an example and then saying you're not making your point with that example you just used is a very self-defeating argument

[unreal flare]

Feedback has been feedbacked

[wicked umbra]

im not literally saying double the slots but you get the idea that reducing the perks, upping the price, then saying that its to incentivise buying a rank is a bit counterintuitive no?

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/841075298195472434/1207563305795854396/attachment-1.gif

[weak oak]

and we also care about it not becoming less tame - we appreciate that it is so and we want to keep it that way
i think the main p2w stuff that wynn has at the moment is a really good way of doing it, because whenever you throw a bomb or place a totem it isnt just you that benefits, its a whole load of people - both paying and f2p. you do not in any way need to pay to gain those perks, but someone needs to pay for them to happen, meaning wynn makes money from it without it being that p2w

(me when im late to the party)

[fallow widget]

yeah I agree

[ashen leaf]

Explain LOL

[wicked umbra]

he rages on anything that isnt complete agreement

not sure why he even made this thread if he's just going to tweak out every time someone differs from what he says

[ashen leaf]

Honestly, I think he should be feedback muted. Guy is dropping threads without considering anything but his own thoughts. Then gets angry when people don't agree. I don't even know what I did to him, all I said was that people should treat others with a bit more class and relax on the disrespect LOL

[fallow widget]

when neither of the 2 people most active in the thread are great at not insulting others constantly

[ashen leaf]

What does this mean?

[fallow widget]

I've seen both ye and Drawwy throw shade instead of actually trying to debate a lot here

[ashen leaf]

Ah I see, yeah LOL

They're funny guys

[brisk wren]

supposedly it's illegal to have a "permanent" sale in the EU which is why i suspect they removed the "permanent sale" from the beta store so they could push it to live

[wicked umbra]

i asked if they were ragebaiting because genuinely they were screaming and shouting at people before i even joined LOL

got blocked and told i should be feedback muted because they're more focused on yelling at people than making points 🤔

[weak oak]

well if you think this is bait (im not saying that it is or that it isnt) you certainly fell for it

[wicked umbra]

he said it isnt bait then blocked me ?

[unreal flare]

Stuff like that being legal in the us or asia? If yes, you consumers are so giga fked by your own system 😂

[brisk wren]

i'm not EU so idk, but saw this

[unreal flare]

Yes. Basically you can not mislead people by "offering" a fake discount.

[silk hinge]

that law is the whole reason why steam sales aren't permanant anymore, and it's the same with extreme sales too iirc

[languid island]

I'm in EU and it is 100% illegal

if someone reported this, they might actually get fined but I'm not sure how it works since it's a minecraft server, but they might go after the website

[fallow widget]

Pretty sure it's allowed in the US
annoys us a lot

[mystic gull]

Go to the top and look at the messages. This is simply not true. Nowhere here would my messages constitute as yelling. On the other hand, this is your first message, in the entire thread

U can call me overreacting and annoying but please don't outright lie

[wicked umbra]

you're proving yourself wrong 😂 you can clearly see you were tweaking at other people

even still the gif is NOT wrong, i was saying this thread seems like bait because you're acting like there isnt a reason that CTs have a bad reputation lol