Content Team members and how to fix their reputation. Terminated said no, kinda sad

[mystic gull]

Title

I actually used the search bar, there is nothing like this. So this is ofc a suggestion, we love those ;—;

However I hope this seems actually useful to y'all.

The feedback channels... Are mostly filled with negative feedback. Sometimes it's very good constructed, formatted and non 5 hours of playtime bullshit. But even then it's negative feedback. Now that makes one wonder wow is there really so little to praise the game for?

-# no there isn't, Wynn is a fucking miracle and spectacular experience if anything

However we humans don't like change. Most of us. Especially us so called "gamers" people that sacrifice they're life and soul for this game. For better or for worse. And when we see a change that we had no info of, just happen what's a better idea then to make a feedback post. But then soon thousands follow (exaggerating of course, more like tens)

This is because we only ever can infuence a change after it has been made, not before. This leaves a sour taste of dissapointment in most mouths.

wow no way time to stop yapping and say my actual suggestion

CT's ideas board.

The general concept is that we get a constructive feedback channel, however no one but red or blue names can make posts, they can also make polls there.

So my idea is that say a CT wants to make a change. A major change. Changing some random legendary or a block in a build, thats not major. Major is mythics/aspects/gameplay loops/raids/abilities

They state their idea, a custom ping pings all people interested in that channel. They also state their reason for the idea. This is very important and often overlooked when talking with CT

-# this community has some fucking crazy people who will make graphs to prove their point of fallen changes being bad. We need those people in a channel like that.

I also think that there should be a much more heavily enforced status system so inviduals Foxxo or alike just don't get access to messaging, they can only answer polls or stuff like that. And also a very very long message cooldown for non consistent people like someone just brand new to a channel like that.

Thank you for coming to my Ted talk

[dusty cove]

um actually its their reputation not they're reputation

[mystic gull]

-# yeah here is a prime example why we need a rep/status system :/

[copper grail]

laggard thread

[dusty cove]

their is possessive while they're is a contraction of they are, so "how to fix they are reputation" wouldnt make sense

[copper grail]

@wicked umbra

[indigo dune]

Selvut higher rep than salted

[mystic gull]

Content Team members and how to fix their reputation.

I was not talking to you Telos

[copper grail]

i have feedback on this feedback

these exist

also you are using a forum that facilitates this medium of communicating between ct and players

[mystic gull]

These are exactly the opposite of what I proposed mate

[copper grail]

how is it not

you want a communication medium this is what you get

contrary to what you believe ct isnt an amorphous hivemind

[mystic gull]

AT questions, people ask CT questions, not the CT ask people questions, IM's the same

[fallow widget]

I don't think most CT are that hated
I mean you have a selvut every now and again but even then, Selvut still doesn't get that much flack the few times he speaks up now

[copper grail]

youll get specific perspectives from specific people and thats where youll be discussing your pov to such people

[mystic gull]

I don't mean actual invidual people I meant more like just the word CT. Pretty much everyone at some point said ah but CT hate us/any variation of that

[mystic gull]

Yeah but it's also one chat instead of a list of threads like feedback is

[fallow widget]

Plenty are well-liked even
Like Winteria for example, I don't think I've found anyone that dislikes him

[copper grail]

warrers:

[woeful horizon]

i mean, hated CTs don't help

[wicked umbra]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/724581180841656360/1356456951998840873/attachment.gif

[woeful horizon]

selvut takes can sometimes be extremely wrong and feel like ragebait

[mystic gull]

Guys please stop literally all I asked is to not fucking do this

[woeful horizon]

and we all know what samsam said the day p2wynn was announced

[fallow widget]

true
Samsam didn't help on this front when she tried to support the pay2win bs not long ago

[woeful horizon]

(no, 100k max DPS is not ok)

[wicked umbra]

put it on god this aint ragebait 💔🥀

[copper grail]

beating a dead horse here

laggards man

[fallow widget]

I mean look, a good chunk chunk of us still have things like END PAY TO WYNN and KILL P2WYNN in our uns

[woeful horizon]

they know what to nerf

[mystic gull]

Content Team members and how to fix their reputation. This is no way an attack on invidual CT's!!!

[woeful horizon]

they just don't know how

[wicked umbra]

@violet plover

[copper grail]

like

give us an example here

[woeful horizon]

hero is being nerfed again, but that won't change absolutely anything if air dmg armor is still unchanged

hero has been nerfed more than 8 times

[violet plover]

where did u get the 78% percentage from

[fallow widget]

for 100k max dps to be ok, you'd have to have enemy health reduced to like 1/3 of what it is now across the board

[mystic gull]

Scrolling for an hour

[woeful horizon]

a 9th nerf won't solve anything

[violet plover]

show me the dataset

[wicked umbra]

this guy will NOT put it on god this isnt ragebait

[copper grail]

bro ur talking tripe

[mystic gull]

Please stfu about INVIDUAL FUCKING PROBLEMS, this is not what the goddamn POST IS ABOUT

[woeful horizon]

damn chill

[wicked umbra]

say "on god this isnt ragebait" 🔥

[fallow widget]

103% of statistics are made up
back it up or we'll think it's bs

[pliant topaz]

Democracy is the rule of the people

[woeful horizon]

if u don't get why i'm trying to say it's ok

[pliant topaz]

But the people are

[woeful horizon]

no need to be rude :/

[mystic gull]

I have yet to get a single post of mine that has not been derailed it's kinda getting really goddamn annoying 😭

[woeful horizon]

now u have a bad rep and i don't want to follow this thread, imma downvote this

[mystic gull]

Okey

[wicked umbra]

LMFAOOOO he will simply NOT put it on the record this isnt ragebait... 💔🥀

[pliant topaz]

This will fix negativity until the moment a nerf is required and all poll options are negative

[fallow widget]

ok, back on subject then

[woeful horizon]

wynn needs to give more importance to support playstyles

[violet plover]

forreal bro

[woeful horizon]

a pure DPS meta isn't healthy for this game

[soft veldt]

This is because we only ever can infuence a change after it has been made, not before. This leaves a sour taste of dissapointment in most mouths.

I think this is the best way to put it ngl

[mystic gull]

Thank you 🙏

[fallow widget]

I love playing support that isn't just outright healing
I love when games manage to get players to coordinate and work together.

[wicked umbra]

hi @mystic gull can you simply state "this is not ragebait"

[soft veldt]

you've ragebaited in this thread more than OP

[fallow widget]

your pfp makes it look like you're actively trying to ragebait people by talking to them

[soft veldt]

stop derailing

[wicked umbra]

i havent given my opinion because the premise of this thread has to be ragebait

[violet plover]

like imagine we had an archetype that used kunai as its primary weapon. and the way it healed is by using these papers called "healing ofuda" and u have to shoot them at ur friends and they home. and this archetype also has the ability to climb on walls. and it can teleport to party members with a 6 second cooldown. and it has a 15 second cooldown mini healing bomb that cleanses aswell and gives invulnerability for 0.65s.

thoughts @wicked umbra? i really think i cooked with this one !!! 😊

[wicked umbra]

lgtm!

[soft veldt]

wynncraft player that cant fathom the idea of a different opinion (it has to be a convoluted scheme to get people mad at them)

[violet plover]

translation im employed

[soft veldt]

just because you get mad, doesnt make it ragebait

[wicked umbra]

no i just simply refuse to believe people are dense enough to not see why certain cts are not well liked in the community 😊

[soft veldt]

🔥 make sure to let the kunai 2 tap on headshot!

[copper grail]

They should add the 2 headed siamese twins ogre character that is controlled by 2 players at once from the blizzard moba heroes of the storm

[soft veldt]

everyone knows why certain CT is disliked, we arent talking about that right now we're talking about how to fix it

[fallow widget]

I think the insanely high mobility that most classes have in Wynn makes support harder to pull off without giving said support very strong effects or very high AOE reach. And we can't remove the high mobility, as enemies are balanced around said high mobility. That and the backlash of everyone being slower all the sudden.

[mystic gull]

This is not ragebait I fucking despise ragebait and the one time I tried it with my brother he said I might be the worst ragebaiter in the world so please stop posting philosophical fucking cat gifs with wilted rose emoji

[soft veldt]

LOL

[mystic gull]

I actually completely stand for this post and despise trolling

[wicked umbra]

This is not ragebait I fucking despise ragebait and the one time I tried it with my brother he said I might be the worst ragebaiter in the world so please stop posting philosophical fucking cat gifs with wilted rose emoji

[fallow widget]

this is people in general
I think it's what makes politics so insane right now
but that's getting off-topic

[wicked umbra]

anyhow!

[fallow widget]

good on you

[wicked umbra]

the easiest way to stop cts being hated on is to stop letting them run the ct's image

you're free to discuss whatever but when cts are obnoxious and tweak out at their playerbase no shit they're going to be disliked

[soft veldt]

the easiest way to stop ct hate is to encourage ct <-> player communication and openess

[mystic gull]

Once fucking again I couldn't care less about the genius stuff samsam says, this post is about a completely different issue

[soft veldt]

and stop releasing bad changes
2 step process

[fallow widget]

I'd say what we have already has worked so far, so that's a good sign if nothing else.
-# at least, most of what we are already doing there seems to work

[copper grail]

Could you provide some examples

[soft veldt]

the RW womp womp incident

[copper grail]

Wow that directly affects me

[soft veldt]

its getting better but theres still a lot to do still, im waiting for #polls to be real

[fallow widget]

the forbidden dps measurement unit
samsam supporting the pay2win elements and saying they could be worse if they wanted to make them worse

[wicked umbra]

selvut saying calling out people doing weirdo shouts is homophobia

[copper grail]

I think Qol should not come with such a massive tradeoff

[wicked umbra]

madeline telling people to "peel their skin off with a cheese grater"

yesterday's incident in lore discussion

[soft veldt]

on some level I get it though

the community can say ts to them but they arent allowed to spit back?

[wicked umbra]

yeah that's how it works

[soft veldt]

link

[soft veldt]

I mean that is how it works yeah they prob shouldnt be saying ts but theres bigger issues that cause CT hate imo

[fallow widget]

ok this I agree with being bad
it's a bunch of perverts trying to use the movement as a shield to justify them being perverts on public servers

[kind plume]

This is the deal yeah

[wicked umbra]

a lot of the time you're going to get a vocal minority (sometimes majority) who do not like changes or features

[kind plume]

But for this to work moderation has to work too and there's far too much stuff going on for the mods to be present for it all. You guys yap a lot!

[wicked umbra]

it would serve much better saying "we'll take this feedback on board!" rather than arguing and trying to convince people who (no offense) play the game more than you

[hollow nexus]

some specific instances like this do affect the rest of the team unfortunately but I do believe that overall, the CT is made up of people that want the best for the game. It's just stereotyping based off of a few incidents, if a proper solution were to be put into effect: realistically it'd just be having a community manager that brings in all feedback that is good with interacting with the community rather than each individual CT member giving their own opinion on things which can lead to conflict.

[mystic gull]

Ye exactly and encouraging CT communication and openness leads to better changes, if both sides aren't fucking moronic that is

[wicked umbra]

also notice how it's a vocal minority of cts who get "harassed" despite the fact they've usually argued with community members about it

[copper grail]

Thats funny because I have been looking for a community manager for these past several moments

[violet plover]

idk i mean with the typa structure wynncraft has i think the ct are always gonna bear the blame (even tho theyre volunteers)

[delicate temple]

@ Mod Managers and @ CT Managers

[brisk wren]

they exist but i barely see them (one ct refered to term being AT manager atp but im more so talking about a CT manager)

[copper grail]

Yet lame ass mods closed down my request, intriguing!

[hollow nexus]

may I present https://discord.com/channels/143852930036924417/1399855206056857612 🔥

this is a step in the right direction imo, I do think that a lot of decisions are just not run by players and the gap between what CT and players believe just gets wider and wider 😔

[soft veldt]

Personally I dont have an issue with CT being rude or making jokes in poor taste because I get it. The wynn community can be horrible at times and its a lot of pressure to maintain professionalism. I know a lot of CT feel a huge amount of pressure and deal with a lot of hate so I dont really judge them for their outbursts

[kind plume]

And I wouldn't be surprised if the mods are somewhat terrified to even use their power because the slightest moderation of people misbehaving creates a whole crash out with everyone claiming rubbish about 1984, their rights being infringed and how the mods are power tripping

[wicked umbra]

being a ct and acting like a know it all because you make the content just makes you look bad and i feel bad for other cts who have to bear the brunt of other cts' actions

[wicked umbra]

are we talking about the same mod team or what?

[hollow nexus]

harsh truth

[violet plover]

yeah but this is literally because the mods do powertrip lol

[brisk wren]

this obviously doesn't apply to everyone but there are a lot of names that contribute to this statement lol

[violet plover]

and also are the mods really "terrified"??? theyve punished like 15 people for being off topic in the new channel yesterday

[soft veldt]

the mod team in wynncord is very lax compared to other servers with this large of a userbase

[lost zealot]

imma keep it a bean i dont think ive had a bad reaction with ct's

[wicked umbra]

dont get me wrong ive spoken to a lot of cts and most of them are pretty chill and dont have any negative look in the community whatsoever

but unfortunately the actions of the vocal few outweigh the actions of the silent many

[mystic gull]

I'd fucking kill for a /purge Jesus, apart from that one dude with blue pfp no one said anything useful

[violet plover]

but we're too scared to actually scold or rid these people because the ct is made up of volunteers and these guys actually do most of the work

[hollow nexus]

thanks twin (there's two blue pfp)

[wicked umbra]

ragebait op, mods delete please 😊 (also @violet plover bean vc mr bro)

[brisk wren]

whats scary is that ct can just make huge ass changes and stay silent about them until beta drops

days or weeks of dev time gets dumped into this

and then if players dont like it then oh well...

[copper grail]

lf boltslinger compensation

[violet plover]

can u like actually stop complaining about peoples responses constantly

[mystic gull]

Thats exactly what my suggestion would fix

[brisk wren]

this is what im specifically scared about btw since ive heard before that the person in charge of bolt rework wants to stay hidden

i fully understand not wanting to be super involved but that's what a CT manager is for lol

[mystic gull]

Read this post chat from top to bottom and then press the delete key on that message

[copper grail]

Dawg

[mystic gull]

No actually I need to shut up I'm making it worse ffs

[eternal gorge]

Hey i think drawwy is wrong idk the context

[mystic gull]

I'll leave the primordial soup of greatest minds to work

[soft veldt]

yeah ill take it from here

[tawny orbit]

a suggestion poll wouldn't really directly solve issues here

major changes to content with a vote on like or likent is asking for bias

[mystic gull]

Polls is only a small part of my post

[brisk wren]

it would atleast help you understand to a degree if such major changes are going to be somewhat welcome or not before spending weeks of dev time for it

[wicked umbra]

if you want to know how to make it better then perhaps look at the issue itself?

[barren gull]

self upvoted post, just delete the thread gng

[violet plover]

<@&268142859327242242> this person has been constantly tweaking out on everyone in their thread

[mystic gull]

It's also self downvoted??

[soft veldt]

bro

https://tenor.com/view/hi-mods-hi-staff-gif-25914564

[brisk wren]

bro is tagging mods when theres a mod in the thread

[hollow nexus]

can't have any normal discussion in this cord 🥀

[edgy portal]

why are we here

[hollow nexus]

how's your day

[tawny orbit]

transparency helps, i agree

[soft veldt]

Ive said it before but I really like the official CT threads, I hope we get more in the future

[mystic gull]

Closier is a fucking genius that's why

And ye and that one other guy

[copper grail]

yep but that would mean that they would have to post more often in the at/im threads methinks

[tawny orbit]

yeah they're nice additions

[violet plover]

i dont even know u why are u speaking like i know u

[mystic gull]

Is closier not ur name?

[violet plover]

just accept the responses from people stop tweaking out on everyone

[hollow nexus]

terminated typing up a bomb right now or smth

[tawny orbit]

no need to point fingers at eachother now

[mystic gull]

Yeah so my post is literally those nice additions but in a dedicated hopefully clear and direct channel

[hollow nexus]

can we all sit criss cross applesauce and wait patiently

[mystic gull]

He literally pinged moderator

[tawny orbit]

i am aware

[copper grail]

A pox on your bloodline

[hollow nexus]

😔

[tawny orbit]

doesn't mean you need to provoke them for it 😔

i mean no ill when i say you are reacting pretty aggressively at people

even if the overall point is fair

[violet plover]

yea

[tawny orbit]

or i should say, you react a bit too heated

[soft veldt]

this thread is people provoking OP bruh

[wicked umbra]

this aint even ragebait on my end but the premise of the thread was so silly i assumed it had to be ragebait

especially with the reactions to the slightest negative comment about certain cts

[copper grail]

yes because there are a gazillion existing mediums that already serve the purpose for op's solution

[mystic gull]

a little fix is needed

Some people misunderstood me. I'm not actually asking why CT's public view is skewed. It's filler text to sound smart.

I deleted most of my remarks about invidual people. I'm not calling out any CT. I'm calling out the whole group. U wanna point fingers, sure why not. But is it useful?

Once again this isn't ragebait

[copper grail]

making another single channel is just redundant atp

[tawny orbit]

regarding this, you'd be more likely to end up with general discussions about new content i don't see some customized ping being really necessary here

kind of like it already is

with ask at etc

[soft veldt]

so what do we need to do to get one of those gazillion fixes implemented, just wait around?

[copper grail]

ideas are first stated and then developed from further discussion from those existing outlets

[barren gull]

the world if this thread wasn't a thread but instead a concise and respectful letter sent privately to the dev team

[soft veldt]

https://tenor.com/view/andersomviolao-gif-12381443319241980618

[hollow nexus]

ultimately, a lot of the problems in this thread would be alright if there was a community manager who has a great amount of patience and doesn't mind putting up with lots of negative feedback so that they can communicate with players and get input that'll be listened to

a lot of those traits can't be expected from any CT member at random which is where the issue occurs when all CT who do actively talk in channels do indeed hear things that they may/may not like and bias plays a role when talking about certain topics.

[soft veldt]

no offence

[barren gull]

idgaf about the outcome, private message means this thread doesn't exist which is a happy alternative

[copper grail]

well you talk with the relevant people first but you dont have much of a choice other than to wait

[median plover]

ngl I think it would be nice, they would have to take poll results with some serious salt because uh...
but the stuff after that, I don't think we're getting any sort of ping for "feedbackers" or anything similar in the perceivable future
and a status system would just make the people who already get incredibly angy worse, and spread them into other parts of the discord

[copper grail]

UNNERF ENTROPY PLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

[primal otter]

you'd make a good ct with how upset you get at everything

[soft veldt]

this entire thread is troll imma just wait for term's message

[mystic gull]

Yeah but I'm actually incredibly self doubting so sure I would insult everyone but I would also make good changes and listen to playeys

[hollow nexus]

crisscross applesauce?

[kind plume]

I can respond directly to this thread right now and say that we are not going to run every decision (even large ones) by you.

It wouldn't make sense logistically or marketing wise. It would also lead to disappointment in a huge number of cases and crash outs because of it. The transparency we already provide is often to the complete detriment of progress due to misinformation, plans changing and feedback about things that haven't even been played with ingame yet.

Spoiler alert! We have a ton of ideas that never make it to live that go through many processes, some even getting an inch away and never being pushed.

We have an ever growing team of people that give opinions on changes and create changes themselves, they are ALL Wynncraft players and lovers like you. They literally are our group of players who not only get a say in major things we do for the game but also create and push their own things. You can always apply to join them if you want to do the same, I encourage you too

I've seen while typing this many people talk about the CT as if they pull some idea out of thin air and then just go implement it. They are lovers of the things they are changing and just like a bunch of you have lots of experience with that thing!

[copper grail]

also seperate ct roles by their department than just one blue role thanks 😊 😊🤗

[brisk wren]

i think there are a lot of good examples of CT rn

but there are also a few examples of CT that dish statements that just prove they don't play the game enough to know what they're talking about

[mystic gull]

Besides I don't get mad at negative feedback, I actually enjoy people telling me I'm worse then them, or dumber or something. I'm mad when people just decide to talk a about stuff that's in no way related to my post

Like hero nerfs/enthropy

[brisk wren]

erm actually applications are closed

[hollow nexus]

ay you mind if I message you something regarding this?

[copper grail]

bro its always hero thats mentioned when someone gotta talk about some hypothetical game killing nerf 😂😂

[mystic gull]

Oh ok, in that case sorry for making this post. I won't talk anymore

[wicked umbra]

they are ALL Wynncraft players and lovers like you

let me fix that:

they ALL work on Wynncraft

[kind plume]

For certain roles yeah but there's generally always at least one thing

[kind plume]

Don't derail this with misinformation. I know people like to meme that CT doesn't play the game but it is so apparent that it isn't true (especially for an API stalker like yourself :p) so can we not

[lost zealot]

caught..

checked the api usage

[wicked umbra]

this guy gonna make me do a statistical breakdown of all cts and their playtimes

[mystic gull]

Content Team members and how to fix their reputation. Terminated said no, I guess u can lock it mods

[soft veldt]

I would love to see that actually

[copper grail]

DO NOT LOCK THIS THREAD

[wicked umbra]

would probably need a list of all cts ill do it later ig

[hollow nexus]

this thread lived its life imo, what was said was said. I doubt that any other feedback would change much if the decision is set in stone like how it is.

[copper grail]

ok yeah lock

[brisk wren]

term i think you missed a good main point of this thread that is despite your (appreciated and pretty consistent) transparency there's a few notable CT members making statements that make players understandably upset (and fwif, other CT members lol)

this is why a lot of players hold the opinion that some CT just don't play the game or have no idea what they're talking about and it eventually leads to CT members not wanting to speak up in the first place but they can continue making harmful changes that players don't like

[lost zealot]

i could name like 3 ct's max, but here is linny's

[kind plume]

Don't stop talking! We like your feedback on issues and we are trying to get more directed feedback for specific changes. Especially when we make huge updates like the one in beta. You guys have just got to understand that this all takes a lot of time for people to do and reading mostly negative feedback is not always very healthy

[soft veldt]

linny doesnt count

[lost zealot]

oh my fault!!!!

[soft veldt]

[wicked umbra]

https://tenor.com/view/true-truth-nuke-super-truth-nova-truth-meme-gif-16889273424352737553

[mystic gull]

Yeah agree

Content Team members and how to fix their reputation. Terminated said no, kinda sad

[barren gull]

the whole of the ct's reputation vs one ct's fuck ass statements

[hollow nexus]

unfortunate but this is how it usually goes, yeah

[brisk wren]

she does 😭 i dont wanna know where the game would be without her

[copper grail]

coughing baby vs hydrogen bomb

[soft veldt]

I understand that running a company of this scale comes with a lot of red tape and logistical issues. I'm not advocating for completely democratic game design, but I think player feedback is important.

There are certainly more steps that could be taken to achieve more open communication such as polls, dev updates, or community managers, etc. I think its getting better but OP really summed it up in their initial post:

This is because we only ever can infuence a change after it has been made, not before. This leaves a sour taste of dissapointment in most mouths.

[ocean tinsel]

linny simply the goat

[lost zealot]

1 to 1 i think

[wicked umbra]

🤪

[lost zealot]

last online 3 weeks ago is prolly not goated

[soft veldt]

linny is the goat

[soft veldt]

selv is no longer CT we've been over this

[lost zealot]

could be a builder..

[wicked umbra]

gm is ct

[soft veldt]

🤯

[violet plover]

Selvut is ct lol

he just announced he'd be "quitting" item team

[lost zealot]

a bit better...

[kind plume]

I don't think it's healthy to use the logic that:

CT x has an opinion I disagree with so therefore they will infect the game with bad changes

A team is only good if it is comprised of people that have varying skills and opinions. The attack that they don't play the game is such a general one that doesn't ever represent the truth that even the most qualified person will still have a bad take sometimes in relation to their area of expertise. This is even more the case for someone commenting on something out of that expertise.

Just like you guys will have a ton of both good and terrible ideas, the CT aren't immune to that just because they have a blue name, but they are entitled to have that opinion

[wicked umbra]

only issue is that people with blue names have far more sway in the decision making and adding bad changes

[copper grail]

the point was largely about imflammatory statements and also these people have direct sway over the game

[mystic gull]

I mean not to be repetitive and naive but if you guys are trying to get more direct feedback as u say, my suggestion kinda hits the nail right on the head. Like honestly even if we had a yay nay polls and then if like a CT is really curious why players think as they do they can ask them.

[soft veldt]

I think the main issue I have with the whole "CT doesnt play the game" argument is that they're changing things they might not have enough experience for. Like if CT is touching shade I think its completely reasonable to want them to have a large amount of hours playing shade before they are permitted to make any significant changes

[median plover]

additionally, as you can find on the forums, GMs and QAs don't make the item or ability changes that many people get angry at

[copper grail]

tcc grapple skip 😂

[mystic gull]

I don't require a very complicated way of feedback and all that shit I said about status system could go to the bin. Literally the only thing that interests me is SOME sort of feedback on changes before they get made

[soft veldt]

I think giving CT different coloured roles to denote these distinctions would help

[lost zealot]

wasnt that left in on purpose

[copper grail]

yes but qa thinks its exploit so no no!

[tawny orbit]

i don't think you should place the expectation on the creators to expert the gameplay they're balancing this is generally for playtesting to do

[copper grail]

let me find the messages

[median plover]

thats a moderator descision, and yes, it is an exploit

[barren gull]

It should also be noted that CT (seemingly) has the bar for stuff like game balance set so differently from the experience that players witness in game (ex. a dev was justifying how certain underperforming/lackluster Mythic Bows like Spring, Ignis, or Freedom were actually not underperforming or lackluster due to factors that players don't care for like Ignis' quote "godly survivability")

[mystic gull]

I said to not pull specific examples myself, time to sin.
I think we could've had a much healthier fallen change if CT's listed their concerns to the community and the community told them why a small change like this can completely kill all fun in fallen

[kind plume]

I summed up why we cant get a lot of meaningful impact from you guys before a change is made already. The examples we already have of big transparency have frankly been a mess and not something we would like to repeat to be honest. Trickster, sharpshooter and ritualist are all things that we talked about basic concepts we were thinking about and ended up morphing months later into concrete plans that players were upset to learn may have changed or people dooming about changes before even checking them out because they were misinformed

[mystic gull]

I'm not at all for the argument of CT's don't play the game but they sometimes don't main the things others do. And one guy working on warrior is not as good with knowledge as an absolute fallen sweat that knows every little niche mechanic or stat

[lost zealot]

then youll have noone to imrpove forgery

[soft veldt]

I disagree, if you are working on a piece of content you should be quite familiar with it. And sad to say but I dont have much faith in the playtesters

[soft veldt]

I can fix forgery myself its really not that complicated to do

[mystic gull]

Yeah but u also morphed those changes based on feedback

[lost zealot]

become ct

[tawny orbit]

i guarantee you that a majority of gamedevs you see in more major games are not going to be absolute experts at the game they're developing most of the time either

you'd speak from the perspective of someone who has put in that time

[barren gull]

This belief/perspective gets further cemented as believable when changes that don't appear to accomplish anything productive for the game or otherwise showcase that CT has some lack of understanding for how things in game work (Fallen healing going from godlike to near unserviceable in 1 patch)

[tawny orbit]

but at this point you're expecting people to have hundreds to thousands of hours into a class' archetype while also balancing it, and sure, someone with that experience may be able to more precisely pin down issues in balancing

but the people touching the balance changes arent going to be maining every single thing they change

[copper grail]

@median plover response?

actually dont need one but w/e

[median plover]

well theres also the issue of people not being able to test or fully understand changes being made.
for example that fallen one that is incoming, I initially was very scared, but it was at least partially because I didn't understand how one of the new abilities will work. once the specifics of how it works were explained to me (and I did some testing) I now find the fallen change pretty much fine. its less QoL but fallen was so above everything else in that regard already that I don't have an issue with it

[lost zealot]

I dont think that ct's need to ask the general public on every single change, as I dont trust the public to make the right choice, but on more consequential issues, could a small group of people be asked?

[tawny orbit]

it's like expecting the people who reworked trickster to have mained and gained expertise in old trickster before reworking it

[kind plume]

Yeah I haven't even said it yet because I know I will get gooned on but your priorities as a single player are not always the same as someone making a game for thousands of unique and different players. Your experience is valuable which is why feedback is always open but our experience in making games for the masses can't be written off

[mystic gull]

No, that's why my suggestion. CT don't need thousands of maininf an archetype. They just need players that already did that

[lost zealot]

gooned on?

[hollow nexus]

yo that word changed a lot in definition over the years 😭

[lost zealot]

unc change that wording

[soft veldt]

Lucky that we do have a plethora of people with thousands of hours in any specific arch, its the playerbase. This is another reason why I hope the players get more things run by us or at least asking for our opinion and taking it seriously

[hollow nexus]

please don't say that 💔

[wicked umbra]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/412373201063247873/1086725739090542682/attachment.gif

[kind plume]

[soft veldt]

I would if I could, maybe ill apply after the unban

[brisk wren]

im going to avoid names here, im not gonna quote exactly what was said (because i also dont quite remember), but tell me if you think that in any scenario, these statements (or what they blatantly imply) are acceptable

1. "yeah the changes of 6 to 3 class slots are bad but new players have the option of deleting their character, spending their LE on an in game rank, or just buy a rank from the store"

2. "we could have gone much worse with the update in terms of EULA actually"

3. "wynn is f2p, most servers that are have a lot of paywall but actually we are being generous with it compared to other servers, so if you want to unlock more than 3 slots, it's only 15 dollars to buy a rank"

i can go on and on but these ones personally pissed me a bit because it's a huge middle finger and showing no shame in screwing new players up or making disgusting comparisons to spotlight why "wynn is better than other servers" makes me question future choices of these people

i'm not saying wynn didn't need extra monetization, and there are certainly good parts of it in this update, but you can clearly see now that the community has voiced their opinion, this was a NASTY change that NOBODY liked and you can CLEARLY see that BEFORE even discussing any design or development whatsoever

[lost zealot]

we know youre playing on an alt

[soft veldt]

although im sure it would be a different experience than im expecting

[tawny orbit]

the issue is you are asking this from the same people who have a fairly large amount of people who will defend a class for being fine regardless of the view of the devs behind it aswell

[median plover]

the opinion of the guy who created it is not the end-all for what is and isn't an exploit. its pretty clear that the room is supposed to take away your parkour-skipping abilities, so to avoid that with an exploit is not allowed, regardless of how funny sock found it

[soft veldt]

Nope! Just staying active in the community

(that was one of the stipulations)

[copper grail]

could you guess what i replied with in the second image

[lost zealot]

bros got 1 year of community service before the unban..

[weak oak]

yeah i think the main issue is that if someone has thousands of hours in an archetype they're only ever gonna say its ballanced or underpowered

[soft veldt]

hopefully less than that 🙃

[tawny orbit]

it's obviously not a guarantee but people will be biased behind the things they put a lot of time mastering so that their time isnt wasted

[weak oak]

(unless they just hate playing it)

[copper grail]

https://tenor.com/view/ishowspeed-try-not-to-laugh-gif-7682731162751353849

[wicked umbra]

qa team hard at work

(this is a joke for legal reasons 😊)

[barren gull]

see they are not here because they died testing new fallen healing

[lost zealot]

lowkey can you blame them, you gotta bugtest some bullshit like raids

[barren gull]

me resigning instantly the moment they ask me to bugtest proffing

[hollow nexus]

imma go dip for now but Terminated, I do think that something like this would be beneficial for both the CT and also the players. For lack of a better word, if you choose someone who doesn't mind it, they can be seen as someone where official feedback really goes to/comes from and less pressure would be put on the general content team.

[brisk wren]

there is one though lol

[hollow nexus]

there's a community manager??

[brisk wren]

they've been making all the posts in the changelog

[wicked umbra]

barely

[lost zealot]

uh tealy?

[brisk wren]

oh maybe not a community manager i thought u were talking about a CT manager

[violet plover]

@hexed saffron

[soft veldt]

there is a CT Manager

[hexed saffron]

https://tenor.com/view/shrug-idk-dexter-innocent-gif-10412116

[hollow nexus]

the goat

[copper grail]

disappeared after this message, strange!

[brisk wren]

dexter might be the community manager

[wicked umbra]

Tonight's the night. ahh manager

[median plover]

the CT manager and a community manager are not the same thing lol

[brisk wren]

i was mixing these two up

[soft veldt]

https://tenor.com/view/doakes-dexter-dexter-doakes-gotcha-found-you-gif-14688017774431904057

[hollow nexus]

community manager would be someone actively going out in search of getting feedback: hosting polls, asking in channels, responding to all feedback posts, etc.

[lost zealot]

ct manager stipulation is that you cant log in anymore

[green canopy]

managing the content team and managing you guys are very different jobs

[median plover]

one makes sure the CT are doing content stuff and whatnot, the other would manage their public image

[green canopy]

afking in ct servet

[soft veldt]

maybe they're banned too!

[hollow nexus]

bros chances of getting CT after unban are going down by the moment 😭

if you make it in twin, cook up crazy changes

[soft veldt]

yall remember that post saying we should give players access to testing servers

[lost zealot]

no

[soft veldt]

banned players have attained CT before, Im not giving up 🔥

[median plover]

what does playing on the server with otehr players on it have to do with making quests/updating old ones? you won't find people chatting much about it online or anything

[lost zealot]

is lexnt only creating quests?

[green canopy]

so that they would know the state of the game and relate to the players they are producing content to

[ripe robin]

can you not 💀

[median plover]

no clue, but thats the main role of a game master, which is what they are listed as

[hexed saffron]

lex does a bunch of stuff, she is also a CT Manager

[lost zealot]

idk maybe lexnt is putting in 40 hour workweeks on the server

[hexed saffron]

notable she manages and does a fuck ton of work on all the festivals

[ripe robin]

valid crashout

[copper grail]

op discovered the open forum format

[wicked umbra]

over an hour ago 🥹

[lost zealot]

hes going through the post

[soft veldt]

(he has grown and changed a lot as a person)

[delicate temple]

If a CT member can find it reasonably an option for an alternate route how come some players immediately get banned for having a similar thought process

[wicked umbra]

had to confirm it was not ragebait before engaging 😊

[ripe robin]

i was scrolling the messages then realized theres almost 400 so i gave up now 😔

[mystic gull]

Sorry I provoked way too much shitty responses

[lost zealot]

personally i dont think it should be a requirment to be active to be ct, but atleast like semi-reguarly

[mystic gull]

U can say it in a normal language next time

I legit thought you were spewing nonsense just for nonsense

[wicked umbra]

yeah i said "can you say it is not ragebait" how much can you read from that ??

[mystic gull]

Like asking: are u ragebaiting, is not hard

[lost zealot]

thats all of his messages dw

[copper grail]

I think we should all simmer down here. The past is in the past. Unnerf entropy

[hexed saffron]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/841075298195472434/1207563305795854396/attachment-1.gif

[mystic gull]

After 8 useless messages

[wicked umbra]

SO easy to respond here

[mystic gull]

Can u fucking stop

There is a entropy post, go there gawd

[copper grail]

My fellow Can I have the method

[lost zealot]

i dont think this thread is going anywhere....

[soft veldt]

nothing gonna happen lol

[wicked umbra]

https://tenor.com/view/kraid-samus-metroid-metroid-dread-lion-gif-3665180798431418891

[median plover]

sorry but I don't think things like that are "immediate bans"
at least not in the recent past
but thats also not the topic of this post so...

[copper grail]

yo i beat this game it was pretty cool

[delicate temple]

It's a disconnect between CT and Mod team for no good reason

[median plover]

yep, and knowing it statements like that exist now, I will personally try to communicate and advocate for more communication with CT on whether things are exploits

[wicked umbra]

so... why was this thread even made it feels like a handshaking thread honestly

[mystic gull]

I don't use Instagram, I don't speak like this

[ripe robin]

Ok so to be on topic i do like the idea of changes being informed before they're added, which is what the hero beta is for. but an expansion on that would be coolio

[wicked umbra]

like this thread isnt even talking about the reputation of cts. it just seems like nosey people wanting to know about changes before they're public lol

[mystic gull]

What does this mean. By this I mean "handshaking thread" what does that mean

[lost zealot]

imagine like a few active players get asked on big decisions if they sound chill

[delicate temple]

I remember hero betas used to have a lot more hotfixes this one feels a little dry

[lost zealot]

then BOOM if it isnt chill the community can dog those players!

[median plover]

yeah that was one of my biggest gripes with the faster updates we used to have, there were a lot of changes that seemed to need a beta because of how long they took to get used to to really know if they were bad or not

[wicked umbra]

a bunch of people shaking hands and agreeing with each other

[mystic gull]

I couldn't give less of a shit how idk new aldorei npcs gonna look, I just want my favourite classes to become unusable

[brisk wren]

erm

I just want my favourite classes to become unusable

[mystic gull]

TO NOT BECOME

[wicked umbra]

which is precisely my point. just make a feedback thread on the beta and stop being nosy?

[mystic gull]

But I don't HAVE AN ISSUE WITH THE BETA?! I HAVE AN ISSUE WITH THE WAY CHANGES ARE HANDLED

[lost zealot]

editing means showing you lost

[ripe robin]

^fr, i like how the current patch is in hero beta so theres nobody annoying going "ct try not to release buggy update challenge" or something

[median plover]

but we could prevent similar issues in the future, when updates are too small for beta

[copper grail]

You know the simple solution is to not enforce the tcc grapple skip in spite of the opinions of the literal ct that is responsible

[ripe robin]

or even worse: "does ct even playtest their changes 🤪 "

[wicked umbra]

or just make a thread and get mass community feedback ?

[soft veldt]

(the answer is no)

[median plover]

after the update is out?
thats just worse imo

[wicked umbra]

make threads asking for changes to be reverted: ❌
make threads complaining about cts not listening (dont ask): ✅

[mystic gull]

This is literally my suggestion but dedicated not flooded with slop channel dawg

[wicked umbra]

What is this... "Slop channel"? Instagram terminology. Please use proper English.

[soft veldt]

if players are allowed to talk, its slop

[delicate temple]

From what I read they playtest just not with the usual conditions most people play with

[mystic gull]

Slop is an English word. It has a meaning

[delicate temple]

Like unoptimal builds and such

[ripe robin]

yea and moving it over from test server can cause bugs

[wicked umbra]

Please do enlighten me what a "slop channel" is then.

[copper grail]

I dont think the word "slop" in itself provides context

[mystic gull]

The channel is flooded with slop. Not slop channel

[wicked umbra]

Cite your terminology please. A dictionary perhaps?

[wicked umbra]

https://tenor.com/view/im-from-the-cityyyyyy-gif-4548670119770313438

[mystic gull]

It quite literally just means like pig food, the shit they chow down in troughs, muddy looking disgusting substance

[copper grail]

In regards to what.

[mystic gull]

Slop - that's the meaning of the word

[copper grail]

I am not following here

[ripe robin]

when somebody says slop in slang terms they mean soulless content or soulless information
i personally believe when drawwy says slop for a thead response they just mean something unrelated to the thread's topic therefore useless and ignored

[wicked umbra]

And how do you propose feeding pigs Discord messages? Harumph harumph.

[soft veldt]

slop mean low effort and same-y, thats literally it

[hollow nexus]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1286481207860924467/1307610354192482417/attachment.gif

[soft veldt]

tealy stop wizardposting

[hexed saffron]

ok im done sorry

[copper grail]

But the responses here has lead to productive conversations (In my humble opinion) - is this not the purpose of a forum format?

[ripe robin]

ey i ain't saying thats my opinion lol

[wicked umbra]

https://tenor.com/view/good-morning-gif-8038175681642934493

[violet plover]

what lightbenders think they are

[copper grail]

KILL ALL SUPPORT MAINS

[hexed saffron]

me when I type %appdata%

[mystic gull]

Like this is shit doesn't literally mean this is poop it means it's bad

[violet plover]

but it quite LITERALLY means POOP bro

[ripe robin]

not the slang term 🤓

[mystic gull]

Same with slop, stop trying to complicate things just to annoy me @wicked umbra

[wicked umbra]

Failure to cite statistics, using silly Generation-Z terminology, attempting to bait people into anger- Are there any moderators around perchance?

[hollow nexus]

roaming?

[ripe robin]

guys i think drawwy wants yall to stop talking about slop and start talking about their post

[mystic gull]

I'm gonna go fucking eat soap I swear

[hexed saffron]

roaming through the fields on the way to my wizard tower

[wicked umbra]

Is this some sort of Generation-Z insult?

[ripe robin]

i removed my skull emoji bc my message wasn't meant to be satire

[hollow nexus]

is that a guild territory

[violet plover]

cotl

[ripe robin]

its a boomer thing actually, when a child said a curseword their parents would usually threaten to feed them soap to "clean" their mouth, they wouldn't actually do it

unless they were crazy

[wicked umbra]

So you admit its an insult then? Seems rather like an ad hominem.

[ripe robin]

ey i ain't the one who said it

also not an insult and WHERE DID YOU GET AD HOMINEM FROM 😭

[lost zealot]

unc omg

[wicked umbra]

By your own admission you implied it was indeed an insult.

[copper grail]

Is that not ad hominem? Please explain your thought track.

[ripe robin]

sure, only if its said like "you should eat soap"

[ripe robin]

ig but then every insult in existance is an ad hominem you are technically correct 🤔

[wicked umbra]

As asked of you, explain your thought process behind the insults.

[ripe robin]

which

[mystic gull]

Nah I low-key fuck with you the soap message was a response to the stupid shit ye is saying

[copper grail]

Huh?

[lost zealot]

@wicked umbra youre getting 2v1'd

[copper grail]

Quite insulting do you think?

[mystic gull]

Mine did but they also used pepper alongside it

Fucking hurt

[wicked umbra]

No matter how many opponents, logic and truth will be on my side.

[copper grail]

group ragebaiters?

[ripe robin]

rip oh my god

[ripe robin]

-# nuh uh

eggyweggy i beg of you your paragraph has better be about the thread's topic and has nothing to do with the circles ye and telos are trying to put me in 🙏

[mystic gull]

Ur saying I'm insulting you but I'm quite literally saying I'm gonna eat soap = I'm gonna cause myself harm. If anything since ur a ragebaiter which is like soft sadism that should bring u pleasure no?

[copper grail]

We have been trying to be on topic???

[ripe robin]

exactlyyyy

[copper grail]

Wheres this hostility coming from I dont understand

[wicked umbra]

What even is this logic breakdown? Where did sadism and this sort of stuff come in?

[ripe robin]

might be a miscommunication from my side 🤷

[copper grail]

More ad hominem I think

[mystic gull]

-# Unnerf entropy PLZZZZZZZZZZZZZX

[sleek dagger]

old school runescape has a poll system for community based feedback n it's pretty good, this server could do with a poll thread for ct only, that'd be good but it doesn't fix the monetization updates motivation

if ct made a post like 'would you be ok with more paid features' the answer would always be 'no, focus on fruma'. that stuff just happens because the devs see they aren't making enough money to make do, panic, and the game gets worse cuz of it, and the only way we can push back is to show them that it makes us want to spend less money. literally, if they told us that 'we aren't making enough money to fund fruma' there would be hella loot bomb parties from ppl, hell, I'd throw $100 to support my second favorite mmo

[copper grail]

Lol you should see jagex now

[mystic gull]

Paid updates were red names deal

[ripe robin]

THANK YOU

[heavy crystal]

selvut mainly works on music now though no?

[mystic gull]

CT's didn't have a say, didn't know about most of the changes

[ripe robin]

yea^ i heard that somewhere^

[lost zealot]

@mystic gullatleast ping @wicked umbra in your posts

[mystic gull]

Look at what I describe as major in my post

It's mostly class raid gameplay things

[wicked umbra]

https://discord.com/channels/143852930036924417/1400248170700738580

[mystic gull]

At least don't ping me

[copper grail]

extremely confrontational post for no percieved reason?

or sensible reason rather

[sleek dagger]

a poll system would do a lot for general game balance, imagine a
"which mythic is in dire need is a rework?: (list of mythic items ct has their eyes on)

n then a discussion thread underneath for more in depth feedback n ramblings

it would probably soften the blow of some of the more continuous balance decisions

i can also see this backfiring where more popular archetypes and general game content gets more attention n that's probably something ct would need to account for

[mystic gull]

Yeah I'd love something like this

But terminated said they won't do it

[green canopy]

salted decides that

since i think only he can make new channels and other stuff

[hollow nexus]

only issue is that i doubt that this post would make its way to Salted

[green canopy]

salted does lurk a lot

[hollow nexus]

Hey salted if you’re reading this check out my post that I made yesterday frfr

[sleek dagger]

a source of streamlined targeted feedback needs to exist from ct rn cuz all we have is the muddy player dictated feedback with duplicate posts, rage bait, n honestly extremely distracted discussions. the best posts are the official x posts and the extremely popular controversy posts (but not the majority of the discussion underneath lmao)

[green canopy]

but with the amount of shitters i doubt he will finish reading it before scrolling in #vip_room

[hollow nexus]

I think this post and the one that I made are pretty similar except that one didn’t get sent off topic so much

Like base idea, I think that in all honesty, how feedback posts are and how they get reacted to are all based on presentation, not only the idea itself

[sleek dagger]

no idea how ct wades through so much useless discussion tbh

participating in the 'This update is pay to win slop' thread was absurd, it got 10k comments in less than 24hrs iirc?

[languid geode]

I will remind you that ct are mostly volunteers and they get no say with the p2w features...

[sleek dagger]

OH YEAH
keep forgetting

i have to grapple with the idea that the paid devs communicate with the playerbase way less than i initially thought, it's good that they communicate -at all- since the volunteers are the ones doing a lot of data n opinion gathering

n i imagine that data goes -somewhere-

[languid geode]

the only paid ct that ik that interacts with the community is texilated...

but thats mostly about enjoying the game and music and their wackly immolation builds haha...

[wicked umbra]

@hexed saffron

[jaunty night]

Not gonna get in that last tangent again here too are we

[woeful horizon]

funny how this kind of suggestions and feedback get so much attention

meanwhile actual feedback is so ignored

[languid geode]

not rly...?

theres actually some changes that got added due to community feedback

[hexed saffron]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/316978886087016449/970776118707765258/winner.gif

[wicked umbra]

hate to give you the news now bub

you're fired

[mystic gull]

I wish it being true that me and punscake ranting to terminated about ghostly for an hour actually made someone improve it

[green canopy]

key word "some".

Not all changes will be implemented, and some ct/devs want to do their work their own way, which could include community feedback but doesnt have to.

[languid geode]

Ok let's see...
Sacred surge changes
Blood connection cost 2 to 1 AP
Enhanced generalist spell
I think eldritch call is also originally a fan idea...? Idk...
Trumpet

Just to name a few...

[mystic gull]

What huh, Celeste I never said ur not saying truth

I just made a funny remark about me and punscake

Ssurge changes, if ur talking about current that's fire, if ur talking about old I'd really love to meet that guy

[glass jetty]

deliverance got made normal from sslow bc i complained about it to ims

sometimes they dont use ur suggestions unfortunately but sometimes they do

[languid geode]

Tho there does seem to be smth limiting them back as well...

[carmine heath]

yeah, it's called the greater picture

they know what's gonna happen to this game's future, we don't. They make changes based on what will change in the future, we suggest changes based on the present

[fallow edge]

The problem is not on the team its on individuals that are on the team

[true moth]

yeah we need ct mmr as well as constructive feedback mmr

this is actually genius wait

@earnest rapids which ct would have the highest mmr

[earnest rapids]

Like good and just farming mmr?

[true moth]

mmr =/= good, who farms the most

[earnest rapids]

Selvut

[fallow edge]

From aura farming to rep farming we turning wynn into reddit

[fallow edge]

Blud mmr so bad that makes each of his sentence a national threat

[true moth]

constructive feedback and the content team is now a competetive esport

[fallow edge]

Ranked ct

[lost zealot]

dog saying you dislike every unpopular change and then asking for mmr if you agree

[soft veldt]

CT tier list when

[stuck socket]

gotta give out commissions to ct so they can increase their drawwy reputation

[languid geode]

Hmm... Uhh sure I can try update mine...

[hollow nexus]

think that was sarcasm

[languid geode]

-# mb...

[ashen leaf]

Me when I spend all my time on the dev server updating for Fruma 🤪

[unreal flare]

Good idea, similar to how osrs got on track by focusing on their player suggestions and ideas.

Add a board ingame, where suggestions/ideas are posted on.

Then players can vote for or against it. (They can not write, only read and press yes/no button)

If a vote hits like 75%+ yes out of all votes on it, the ct can decide to implement it or not.

Not everyone can vote (to prevent abuse). It is restricted to gametime (100hrs+?) + maybe atleast vip.

Suggestions/ideas on the board will only be posted by ct but will also post viable ideas out of feedback channels.

It is not a must to implement/ not implement posted and community accepted ideas. But ct can get an early and easy feedback if the community likes them or not.

For example the current beta would have never made it through a poll. Ct knew that beforehand and would have worked on it as usual. But it still can be used for many parts of it like general questions or ideas during early development stage.

That system would be very very similar to the one in osrs. Its often praised by players and one of the big reasons osrs is still one of the greatest and most successful mmo's today.

[thin grove]

so real, ban people making youtube videos of them cheating and mod gets told they're biased bc the banned person was in an opposing guild

[azure owl]

it's almost like there's multiple people behind those changes
im p sure that i even mentioned that im just one of the few ATs with patience to read through fallen feedback in search of actually useful info, hence i was the one doing the thread
the fact that a CT member is communicating some changes doesn't mean they're fully on board with them

[weary wadi]

😔

[kind plume]

Right, I went to sleep.

I think salted explained it really well in his update post after beta started. It does suck to remove something that you once had (despite the fact that current players keep the old perk) BUT I think it's entirely reasonable to donate some money to a free game made by mostly volunteers after 3 entire playthroughs that could easily last hundreds of hours. Wynncraft is doing something (in Minecraft) that is almost totally unique and while many games have an up front sticker price to play them at all, even being able to play the entire game 3 times over without having to delete anything or donate a cent is very reasonable. (completely ignoring silverbull ingame with the advertised offers that you can see as well as general regular sales that we do on the store making these premium perks fully accessible to players who are deeply invested in wynncraft)

Being able to have more characters as shown by the stats salted shares is typically something that the upper percentiles of players do, thus it makes sense that those would be the people more invested into wynncraft and probably more inclined to donate to the server if they wanted that perk.

The argument for new players "trying out all the classes" can definitely be raised and although the raw stats contradict this, I do agree that even if you're only 10-20 levels into the game it would feel back to delete your progress in order to play a new class. I don't personally see this holding up when you would have to do this 3 times over and still be unsatisfied with your decision to have to delete anything (Not to mention that anyone unsatisfied and having played 10-20 levels would need to start from scratch anyway even if they had a new character slot. They would also be unlikely to play very much on the second and third slot because after a first bad experience on a class they would most likely just use the other slots for testing post tutorial thus not really having any important progress to delete if they really had to). I think the backlash primarily came from a place of anything being removed is seen as bad (which is fair), this is just my personal opinion and obviously we updated the char slots in response to the feedback given after beta dropped.

In terms of those exact comments, I will once again say that CT are wynncraft players, If the community is desperate for more transparency then you have got to stop taking every single word out of anyone with a blue or red name's mouth as solid facts because it hinders being able to be transparent at every turn

[native jay]

see: me

the words "may" or "I'd like to" seem to have always autocorrected to "This Is Going To Happen Fuckers And You Are Going To Like It" for so many years when people read my messages

[floral wasp]

wynncraft is not a democracy. obviously while we always listen to feedback, polling the community for every change would be an arduous and ultimately non-productive task. Let's consider the situation where there is a mythic which far outclasses any other item on the market. If it was put to community vote whether to nerf it, even if it might be negative for the game overall, all the owners of that item would vote against the proposal, resulting in gradual Wynn powercreep. A further issue is that in order to keep people interested in the game, Wynn needs to do bigger updates to existing systems in one sweeping blow - take lootrun Trials, for instance. if we were to put it to a vote whether to remove a lot of the missions which gave sacs and rrs we would be downvoted to high hell, and we wouldn't be able to give a reason why we were doing this without spoiling the existence of the trial system.

there are some points I agree with, like increased moderation, but a voting board is materially unreasonable for any number of reasons.

[mystic gull]

Once again major things that the CT themselves decide if are needed to be discussed with the community

Cuz like rn idk linnny can’t just say: yo guys im gonna make this ingredient like this - that would just constitute to them getting fired

[fallow edge]

Im pretty sure linny can do that without getting fired

[mystic gull]

Just say future changes? No, definitely not

[stuck socket]

i feel like ct isnt like 30 8 yr olds all doing their own thing with no coordination between then 💀

[mystic gull]

I don’t feel like that either

[stuck socket]

[languid island]

i believe that but can i get a screenshot?

OP when people on the team act like this how do you expect people to like them?

[ashen leaf]

How you expect people on the team not to act like thst when you have some people like the ones in this thread

[mystic gull]

Grr blocked replies are the bane of my existence

[languid island]

also OP what good your suggestion do when Salted can just come in and say "we're introducing insant 104 level up and Annie reroll tokens in the next update"

[mystic gull]

Never said that the channel would have absolute power over decisions

But usually if people hear that their project/idea is flawed from a lot of people with coherent arguments and reasons for them - if Theyre not an utter narcissist their opinion might change about their creation

[stuck socket]

i think ct try to do whats good for the game, theyre not always right but when theyre wrong htey usually notice pretty soon after the change releases and revert it anyway

[languid island]

I dunno about that chief.
I still remember someone on the forums changing poll options from yes to no because they disagreed with the suggestion and then we never learned who did it.

[stuck socket]

having to post every change that might be significant to the thing is kinda just time loss

[mystic gull]

.

If the CT decides he wants further feedback

Not - might be significant

[stuck socket]

i meant "might be significant" as in theres a chance its a bad change and it shuold be put in the thing

i just dont see how making a poll system would be good enough to justify the drawbacks

[mystic gull]

I mean once again, terminated said no, why are we still discussing the usefulness of a hypothethical channel if its been denied to ever have the possibility or being created

[stuck socket]

🤷

[kind plume]

Hey, I said no to running every decision (even big ones) by you

its just infeasible. Its not that im denying it myself or something

[mystic gull]

I partially agree with ur concern but at the same time i think it would do much more good then bad for next updates and general public mood

[languid island]

do it

[stuck socket]

the general mood is always gonna be terrible whenever something gets nerfed

[mystic gull]

Like there is not a single post where if u complain about some change someone will just say, suck it up boy and blame CT’s because Theyre at fault (even if its not true)

[stuck socket]

i think ct doesnt need to discuss planned changes with the community

making the game is cts and devs jobs not the community

[kind plume]

We have been providing more direct outreach in the frequent official feedback threads.

Polls could potentially be useful but I think it would only make sense if it was properly integrated into the game (like optional surveys) where we can accurately track WIDE community opinion that is unbiased based on peer pressure, people being nasty on discord etc.

The counter point to this is that we obviously already collect a bunch of objective data and gathering more and using it directly in our work more frequently is an equally good step forward that is less susceptible to "mob opinion"

[mystic gull]

Yes but 5 kinda annoyed feedback posta is better then 20 fuming with anger ones

[languid island]

on one hand people are critikal of the CT
on the other hand CT say things that would get you looks in public
it's not quite the same
I'm not a perfect little prince or whatev
But I never said the things I've seen some CT say.
I'd probably get banned if I said the things I've seen them say.
Edit: Okay, I said something weird once. I forgot about that.

[stuck socket]

idk im not saying ct hasnt gone too far a decent amount of times but honestly its hard to blame them imo when constructive feedback is what its like

[languid island]

OP. literally this update has features that only came from one person that a few CT's don't like
your suggestion would literally do nothing about it because the person in charge can just say "lol, no. We're adding it anyways :)"

[mystic gull]

I don’t give a Flying fuck about Lootrun tokens, i care about fallen or Bmonk

So no u can’t say that

This community is way to stupid, stubborn, naive etc. To give any good feedback about monetization

[stuck socket]

thats kinda not the point

[languid island]

it's not hard to blame somebody.
I have to show restrain too.
If somebody can't restrain themselves from acting bad it's not out of the question that someone will respon to them.
Imagine if I was cT saying all of this. Would you then stop arguing with me?

[languid island]

my main man. Salted literally kept an archer mechanic that nobody wanted just because he liked it.
It effects everything.

[stuck socket]

its a lot harder to ignore player opinions if the playerbase has already said something, if they were to push the change anyway itd be very obviously a questionable decision and they cant just get out iwth like a "oh i didnt know" cuz they did know

[mystic gull]

Oh? Im actually curious, Please elaborate

[mystic gull]

Yeah i think the channel would need a very clear description of whats it used to and that nothing is final

[languid island]

i'm not sure it's still in the game because i think it's boltslinger ability but it was something to do with arrow storm knockback that allowed you to fly under specific conditions. It made using arrow storm really annyoing and it benefitted a very niche play style. but Salted didn't want to remove it because he thought it was a fun mechnic and wanted to people to use it despite people not wanting to.

[stuck socket]

oh yeah i remember that lol

[languid island]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/296377212939010050/1397736033369460837/3characterslots.gif

[fallow edge]

@wet owl you are getting FIRED

[earnest rapids]

It still is elusive is the closest thing to having no recoil but the condition to have it is literally to not get hit. Without aspect the cd for elusive to reproc is 4 seconds and with how 2.1 has changed general content into much more of a bullet hell sometimes it feels almost impossible to not get hit especially with the low aoe bolt has compared to different classes. And like bolt has good movement but movement isn't gonna save u from small hit box enemies that swarm you

[languid island]

also i gotta say the vocal minority of the dev team have REAL ego problem and I think it's the main problem why they clash so often with the community
I'm talking about things like "I know better then you do because I know what I'm doing and you don't"

[kind plume]

This is kinda a case in point of our different priorities as game devs versus players. There are a bunch of mechanics in the game that are maybe not liked by the community because they're viewed as "useless" or "bloat" or "unfun" but they serve a very specific purpose (like arrow bomb self damage).

We aren't monsters, we don't create things for no reason.

[mystic gull]

Arrow storm recoil has been removed and only Works if ur airborne

[kind plume]

ye would like to improve this elusive is not very easy to use effectively

[languid island]

but if nobody wants to use it then why keep it in the game?

[stuck socket]

bruh he literally said they make things for a reason and sometimes the reason isnt "bc ppl like it"

[earnest rapids]

Idk off topic but it just seems like a very punishing downside on bolt as from how arrowstorm is it's incentives close range play and with lack of arrowshield to knock away non cci mobs it feels very bad

[languid island]

or very minimal amount of players.
If extra class slots were removed because only 6% used above 3 then why not remove other things based on similiar statistics?

[mystic gull]

Please don’t start again discussing problems with items or classes here again 😭

Eh what do i care

[earnest rapids]

It sounds fixed in practice but many things in the game knock you upwards including your own bombs. Not to mention asking an archetype to not jump is just abit much compared to other changes imo at least lol

[kind plume]

We have a lot of tools as game devs to encourage you towards certain decisions or discourage you from other ones when playing our game. Downsides are a real and important part of gameplay. Negative effects have positive outcomes, its not a concept that is very intuitive I understand that but it is a real one

[fallow edge]

So if people dont like shit they will just start removing it? 😭😭😭

[mystic gull]

Back to drawing muscle mommies

[stuck socket]

bruhburbhurhbr if statistically players dont use the bottom of riftwalker tree, should they remove the bottom half of riftwalker

[languid island]

Maybe make an update that makes those mechanics more inntuative then? It might work.

[kind plume]

I already wrote a pretty big essay responding to the class slot thing. I tried to explain my reasoning as best as I can so definitely give that a read if you want to

its a bit scrolled up here

[earnest rapids]

Something Something bolt rework alr in the works so why bother fixing now

[kind plume]

arrow bomb damaging yourself or arrow storm having recoil is perfectly intuitive design

[languid island]

Wynncraft Democracy Update 💀

[kind plume]

its pretty globally accepted in games that shooting a ton of projectiles has recoil and explosions sometimes damage yourself

[earnest rapids]

Make blood pact kill

[languid island]

from some threads I've seen they kinda did that 💀

[earnest rapids]

Make meteors do self damage

[stuck socket]

youd think the player would realize "shit im bouta die i should stop" lol

[fallow edge]

Dis u

[mystic gull]

Because recoil if done right would benefit bolt, after all the main way u attack shit it run backwards and arrow storm. Problem is it synergizes poorly with walkspeed, making it useless. But its a cool idea on paper, it shouldnt get outright removed if its not entirely perfect in its current state

[glossy bane]

Look at World of Tanks (and Wargaming's other games). They've killed the passion of their games' communities by greed. They didn't change game mechanics, but they used dark patterns and implemented countless p2w features just to feed their 4000 employees and their executives paychecks. They have driven the quality of their games to the ground, so now they are left with only players who fall for their greed/bad decisions. The community outrage there is bigger than here, but they can ignore it, because the one who with power to call the final decisions is the owner of the company/whoever is in power of making decisions. And they suppress their own community creators (youtubers etc.) by dictatoric rules for their community creator program, so they cannot say anything that would make their paying customers see the reality, so those paying players keep living in an illusion and keep being manipulated by p2w and dark patterns.

Why does this matter for wynncraft? Wynncraft can switch target audience to more p2w audience. It will lower game quality massively, but there is always an audience/customer base for everything. It is up to the owner(s) decision(s) what type of game they want to create.

Ultimately, it doesn't really matter whether we get even better communication between CT and players. CT is already doing a decent job, their lootrun update would be SO COOL (as well as most of the other updates) without the p2w stuff. Creating easier communication between CT and players would be cool, it would make the job of CTs so much easier and less tiring.

However, what really matters is communication between CT + players AND the owner of the company. And what ultimately matters is what type of a game the owner wants to create, and what prices can the owner afford to pay to achieve those goals.

Want polls? Ask Salted to create polls before important decisions. Want to make CT and player communication better? Let's create summaries of (good) feedback posts to save CT's time.

[fallow edge]

Grok resume this please

[earnest rapids]

Pulled from api

[mystic gull]

Also, thing that Selvut was discussing they wanna add to bolt, recoil would help with like half of those hypothethical abilities

[earnest rapids]

Mainly looking at the right list as that is the new numbers

[stuck socket]

honestly forgot ritualist exists 😭

[languid island]

we're keeping top 6 and removing everything else 💀

[languid island]

i am very well educated 😭

[earnest rapids]

It might be intuitive ur right but it feels very out of control for when u do lose elusive it spirals into taking so much damage if not death because movement is king and lack of control of it feels like u didn't die because u missplayed u died because u got touched on e and u got comboed

[mystic gull]

Once again im very against community having any say in monetization changes. We’re way too stupid and entitled

[earnest rapids]

It's honestly a mana print/being not mana hungry issue

[languid island]

mana economy

[glossy bane]

polls are partially for preventing community outrage... they can give us reasons beforehand, and options, as well as ask for our opinions... it makes them justified more too

[languid island]

reject mana
embrace hmelee/tstack

[earnest rapids]

Not needing to build mana means u can build into even more dmg, ws, survivability

[earnest rapids]

It's human nature to optimize something and eventually it all leads to intless damage spam crafteds

[native jay]

arrow storm recoil only happens when airborne as of like. I think nearly a year ago now

[languid island]

OP if you wanted people to further not support your thread this is how to do it

[glossy bane]

I understand that this can effect the game economy by spoilering changes. There are points against this. There are points for this. I'm just listing arguments.

[mystic gull]

Literally already said that

[languid island]

IT'S HIM
MR KILL

[mystic gull]

My post is used to express my opinions. Thats why its my post. Its what i believe in

[languid island]

like in real world. everything leads into crabs.

[earnest rapids]

🦀

Decaying heart, elephelk trunk, negative reflasia, dmg ing, dmg/sustain ing, dmg ing

[languid island]

ok but then don't act surprised that you're not getting a lot of support

[native jay]

genuine question, are you aware of the difference between thematics and mechanics? thematically it would make sense for a giant meteor to deal damage to yourself if you got hit on the head with it. mechanically it would be a mess

[copper grail]

selvut that was obviously satire

[languid island]

Selv i'm pretty sure they were joking

[mystic gull]

I'm not tho?

[languid island]

okay, then nevermind.

[earnest rapids]

It was sarcasm I don't think it should do this that would be aids to play around but so is flying away uncontrollably as a punishment for getting hit

[native jay]

people always love to say "whys the rinkydink bomb arrow explosion do self damage but a giant meteor doesnt" as an argument against the recoil in full seriousness

[mystic gull]

Selvut it's ragebait, don't answer to it please

[glossy bane]

And I want to emphasize again that I think Salted, the other devs, CTs, MODs etc. are cool people (at least most of them, because I don't know some of them at all so idk). Whatever they do with their respective role's decisions regarding wynncraft, I refuse to hate on the human beings. They are cool people.

[mystic gull]

Or sarcasm, it's hard to tell

[languid island]

I've literally never seen that.

[copper grail]

except that bomb arrow self damage negatively impacts the class though

but thats besides the point anyway

[languid island]

what is bomb arrow self damage actually for. how does it balance it?

[copper grail]

also rocket jumping niche yada yada

[native jay]

I've seen it dozens of times. it is extremely often that people conflate mechanics for thematics

[mystic gull]

Yeah but otherwise people would grab fire creep both upgrades, emesis, trapper, laby, and then stand in one place and spam bombs under themselves. Arrow bomb has to have some sorrt of drawback to using it near you

[kind plume]

I've seen you say this before and I wanna push back on it pretty directly: Wynncraft is not "switching target audience to more p2w audience". Introducing new paid features for the first time in literal years is not even close to the level that you're describing and its being widely overstated the reasons for it.

I've already summarised my opinion why I believe that a lot of monetisation decisions make sense so I wont repeat that but I think it is extremely unfair to try to use the corporate greed argument in light of the fact that community backlash led to salted posting information that I dont think he should have ever had to.

The updates to the store are predominantly to provide more relevant benefits for people who are able to support us as well as introducing already accepted forms of monetisation to way more relevant activities such as lootruns and raids.

Just to say again. We are NOT only catering to people spending the largest amount of money and we never have. Wynncraft is a business that needs to make money not only to keep going in the pretty niche space that it exists in but ALSO to grow bigger and faster. Everyone that is looking at the store changes and being annoyed should have a think about the fact that the more it is watered down, the less investment from these changes gets to be put directly into the next completely free expansion and update for the game

[languid island]

okay.

[stuck socket]

idk if this is true but imo, creates a reason to actively use escape spell in combat to avoid getting hit and slowing down which makes gameplay more engaging

[languid island]

i thought it was so you couldn't spam it

[native jay]

the purpose is to separate archer's tools. bomb arrow was meant to be a longer-range option, so having the recoil discourages using it at close range. arrow storm was meant to be a closer-range option- which is why I railed against recoil for so long and eventually compromised on just making it occur while you're airborne

[copper grail]

no other class has this drawback

[native jay]

one of the purposes anyway

[copper grail]

and thats not even that much of an issue icl

[mystic gull]

Terminated u make me love you when ur not spouting complete bullshit, thanks

[stuck socket]

like i said its probably not accurate lol its just what i think from playing archer myself

[languid island]

"longer range"
the whole class is long range
and bomb arrow has the least range out of all abilities
unless you're sharpshooter ig
what

[copper grail]

self damage also fucks over bolt Lawl

[earnest rapids]

It's more so a lose more mechanic from how I see it. U only get recoil and self dmg if u get hit (which is alr devastating as is with archer base def and lack of arrow shield) but then leads to not being able to control where you go afterwards

[kind plume]

But i have a red name I can never say anything wrong!!!!

[mystic gull]

So true

[native jay]

bomb arrow. has the least range.

we must be playing different games, friend

[languid island]

real

[earnest rapids]

Sharp currently and in beta is incentived to play close range as arrow bomb either shocking travels slower than base arrow bomb and recasting arrow bomb voids the first one

[kind plume]

bomb self damage also literally allows arrow storm to be usable when you first start playing

bomb would always be better otherwise. In literally every situation

[languid island]

yeah, but TECHNICALLY it has longer range

[kind plume]

especially up close where you can spam it giga hard

[earnest rapids]

Trapper is the real ranged archetype of archer in practice

[ashen leaf]

Brother, I got terrible news, but people continuously harass CT for stuff thst was said months ago to this day. It's actually corny.

[languid island]

maybe I'm crazy from using too much fallout MID and forgot the actual range of arrow bomb

[green canopy]

isnt that the same feeling as meteor and icesnake, or bash and uppercut? the more expensive spell does more damage.

[mystic gull]

No other class can spam one spell over and over over and print way more mana then theyre using while doing 2 mil dps

[native jay]

I think you probably have. Bomb Arrow even without Shocking Bomb can go a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong way

[languid island]

arcanist?

[earnest rapids]

Arrow bomb does have pretty good range but so does like half the other classes too lmao

[earnest rapids]

This is a groot issue lmao I can alr tell u are not hitting 2mil on trapper on single target

[mystic gull]

Fallout is the wrong MiD, ur talking about Napalm. Fallout is the funny knock back movement MiD for trapper lootruns

[copper grail]

anything gets a gajillion damage on groot

[mystic gull]

I mean Annie, tcc, the eye, some world event bosses, orphion

[copper grail]

thats not 2m dps lmfao

[earnest rapids]

Ok ig 2mil was just exaggerated number not actual dps

[stuck socket]

this is most average constructive feedback

[languid island]

doesn't fallout also limit it's range?
I'm a crazy person that uses both fallout and napalm

[copper grail]

also im willing to bet this is just laby anyway

[mystic gull]

How the fuck do you not shrill yourself everytime u cast bomb

[mystic gull]

Gma

[languid island]

-# very carefully

[earnest rapids]

Annie u get scrolled on top of other team buffs like ec or fortitude, tcc has multiple hit boxes where exploding traps or the snowflake thing can clip even then it's not hiting 2 mil, send clip of the eye I just don't believe this, I don't touch world event so maybe but that's not single target, orphion is also not a single target boss it's the most ad spam out of the raids

[languid island]

if you aim at a precise angle it doesn't do damage to you

[native jay]

whatever the case, part of the challenge in 2.0 was trying to ensure the base spells from previous stayed mostly the same, or at least had SOME option of staying mostly the same. that was one of the guiding principles in informing their design, so bomb arrow had to stay as a fast, long-range projectile with an AOE on impact. that in mind, differentiating spaces where you would use bomb arrow and where you would use arrow storm needed to happen. arrow storm was ineffective outside of close range, but if bomb arrow didn't have anything to prevent its use at close range, it'd be generally superior due to speed and AOE, neither of which were aspects that could be compromised on.

[copper grail]

brother what 😂 😂 are u talking rage gma

[mystic gull]

I just use fallout, cuz u can become sonic with rocket jump

Rocket jump greatest ability on earth lowkey

[languid island]

you get the same thing with regular escape

[mystic gull]

Nah I mean I guess I have rage on armor but I was like 80% health so it wouldn't have any impact

[languid island]

it's VERY slightly different

also why is this thread in slowmode?

[mystic gull]

Time to send my favourite video ever once again

[earnest rapids]

Maybe so but I just don't think 1 mechanic should hinder and kill the qol of an entire archetype just make it an opt in for those that enjoy it and there can even be a benefit in addition to taking the opt in self dmg node

[mystic gull]

https://youtu.be/5Cc7uqE86iU?si=ZEip8IXgDc0qa3fM
Try to do this shit with escape

[native jay]

keeping bomb arrow as a fast, long-range projectile with an AOE on impact, how would you differentiate its use cases while preventing it from being a dominant option? salted decided to go with self-damage and recoil. was this the ONLY possible option? no, but it was the one chosen and imo it makes sense. something like "the bomb only arms for damage after X time" or "the bomb gains damage as it travels" would leave it susceptible to lag and ping issues, as well as making it feel bad to use to begin with due to the lack of immediate feedback for new players trying to get the hang of it, and I genuinely havent been able to think of any other possibilities

[mystic gull]

Oh no I'm not making any argument here, I just like rocket jump. I don't even know what y'all are yapping about to be frank

[native jay]

the latter could work as an upgrade later down the line potentially/conceptually, but having that be default behavior would certainly confuse people to start with

[languid island]

it's cool, but why.
I guess that does make it sort of viable to lr as archer.

[green canopy]

imo the self damage promoted long range archer gameplay. my main problem with archer is that arrow storm itself is weak

[mystic gull]

It's cool but why
-# u just answered ur question

[languid island]

yeah ok.

[glossy bane]

I'm not comparing wargaming and wynncraft here. I just tried to explain that there is an customer audience for everything by that example.

I just tried to explain basic concept's of what ownership means and more complex concepts about human decisions and their will, and what ultimately matters.

"switching target audience to more p2w audience" <-- this doesn't state the extent of the audience switch, although I should have said "expanding target audience"... however, by introducing game progress accelerating, and in one case (AP loaning) p2w... features and changes to every game content in multiple layers, this makes those players, who were passionate about those contents not want to play those contents (lootruns, maybe raids, combat levelling, profs etc.)

Shares were a stroke of genius, because they directly allowed players with a lot of money but little time to get most things in the game with real money, while not directly impacting any other game mechanic (lootruns for example). Most people eventually even liked shares, it was a very positive feature to add to wynncraft.

We liked lootruns because it felt like a completely f2p way to make LE. And because a f2p, good way to make LE existed, things like prof speed and xp bombs and mob totems were perfectly excusable and fine. But introducing paid features to every single game content is a very dangerous thing to do.

"ALSO to grow bigger and faster"... yes, that is the current changes' goal... my point/question was, at what price? The current price is ruining the soul of certain game features (like lootruns). You don't have to listen to me, the game will survive and even thrive if you don't listen to me. Just with slightly different audience and lower game quality.

"next completely free expansion"... its not free, nothing is... the price is ruining the quality of certain game mechanics for your loyal players.

I understand these changes. Feel free to go through with them. Just remember, that nothing is free.

[mystic gull]

Shit I'd play a build that did less then 100k dps if it was fun/cool

Much better then shit ton of damage

[copper grail]

ngl would rather they have a node that just removes self damage granted the at tree gets reworked to fit

[glossy bane]

"already accepted forms of monetisation to way more relevant activities such as lootruns and raids." <-- were there any paid features similar to lootrun and raid tokens accepted before?

[earnest rapids]

I'm ngl this is only an issue on bolt, trappers whole kit is bombing once and then shit just walks in so alot of the self dmg just doesn't even matter imo, sharp kinda gets hurt abit if u bomb too close, however on bolt it knocks u up enough to the point where I hope u weren't casting arrow storm or ur flying away.

Also the argument of it must have draw back feels other classes also have the mobility or range also, mage meteor might be shorter but it essentially has the same effective range as bomb as most engagement don't happen outside of like 30 blocks. Warrior arguably has the best/2nd best mobility, I don't play assassin but ig it doesn't have insane mobility or range, and shaman has ec, puppets, and ig ritu doesn't have anything on its own but puppetbomber has good range as it is rn

Idk ik nothings gonna change but it just suck lmao I'll just enjoy bolt as it is now

[mystic gull]

That literally already exists

[earnest rapids]

Drawwy do u ever take damage

[mystic gull]

Irl or in game?

[earnest rapids]

Game

[mystic gull]

I do yeah

[earnest rapids]

Cuz if u take damage u lose that whole node for 2 seconds with max aspects!

[mystic gull]

-# But I player trapper and sharpshooter...

[earnest rapids]

My heart goes out to people who want to play bolt without elusive aspect and flying around for 4 seconds

[earnest rapids]

Keep it that way or u might start making bolt feedbacks

[mystic gull]

Also idk in the rare times I tried to play bolt a lot, not taking elusive was really not an issue

[native jay]

something "only" being an issue for a third of the tree is still pretty significant. rocket jump which futzes with your motion still, and if enemies are in your face as sharpshooter something's likely gone at least a little bit pear-shaped, so being punished for that is fine. Almost sounds like it's doing its job

the argument is that there needs to be a differentiation between advantage states from when to use bomb vs when to use arrow storm. the statement is that the self-damage and recoil suits that perfectly.

[glossy bane]

"I've already summarised my opinion why I believe that a lot of monetisation decisions make sense so I wont repeat that but I think it is extremely unfair to try to use the corporate greed argument in light of the fact that community backlash led to salted posting information that I dont think he should have ever had to."

Yes, its sad that Salted "had to" reveal those infos. I respect him for it though.

Yes, wynncraft needs more ways to monetize.

Yes, I accept more aggressive monetization.

My only request is to dial back 2 new monetizations @kind plume :

• AP loaning is p2w, if yall insist on leaving it in the game, cut the feature off at lvl 30 or lvl 54, so it only gives a small exciting boost early game, but doesn't affect actual late/later-game and level scaling content
• make lootrun and raid DAILY bonus RESET tokens non-stackable

These are the only 2 changes I'm pushing for for days on end.

[mystic gull]

There already are good bolt feedbacks why would I

I don't think I made trapper or sharp feedbacks did I?

[glossy bane]

even if you don't see my argument for why to make tokens non-stackable, please see that its a form of p2w gambling, not just cosmetic gambling like crates, which makes it very bad.

[native jay]

if there are other methods of differentiating bomb arrow from arrow storm in terms of their advantageous ranges and powers, I'd love to hear them and even if it won't actually change such a significantly baked-in mechanic at this point the AT should probably hear about it anyway, but given the circumstances I described (spells should mostly mirror pre-2.0 counterparts, i.e.: bomb arrow must be a fast long-range projectile with an AOE on impact) it was a sensible option

[mystic gull]

Yeah otherwise arrow storm becomes just a spell u can use to cycle spells, but shield is better at doing that lmao

[earnest rapids]

What's the disadvantage state of using

• upper scream scream
• meteor meteor meteor meteor meteor snake arcane transfer
• heal melee melee melee heal melee melee melee
• eldritch call

[native jay]

that isn't the question being asked

[earnest rapids]

Idk it just feels like other classes u can freely do whatever spell does dmg while archer only really gets 2 damage spells and gets punished for using those 2 in tandem

[brisk wren]

lots of text here but im seeing bolt talk so i will say self damage on bomb is much more acceptable than pretty much forced recoil on storm

[earnest rapids]

I understand one is for close one is for far but like am I supposed to only go storm storm storm?

[mystic gull]

Uppercut my answer would be range. Meteor no answer. Heal same. Eldritch call has drawback that u can't move ur totem or recast so

[copper grail]

tokens are a pay to lose feature though if you consider mythic prices over time, still should be removed

[earnest rapids]

Not to mention bolts spells are considerably longer compared to other classes and voids the first spell

[native jay]

warrior's spells are general-use enough that the disadvantage state mostly depends on your skill or lackthereof, but upper's range is limited and that must be kept in mind for your DPS. arcanist requires some accuracy and fucking up on your combo can be devastating in the heat of battle. ophanim requires a lot of upkeep and is effectively single-target alongside being quite a bit difficult to hit on smaller opponents. eldritch call locks you very well in place and prevents extra totem usage, limiting your mobility, particularly with the removal of the instant teleport, alongside being pricey bloodwise. now that I've answered yours, can you answer mine

[glossy bane]

I mean... kinda true, except if you go for shiny mythics

[earnest rapids]

I think u underestimate how big ec range is and how easy it is to cancel and reposition on the rare occasion you do need to

[copper grail]

i think sane people would simply just lootrun again rather than dropping stacks on rerolls but thats just me

therefore its pretty much useless and a net negative for like anyone who uses it so just remove them

[earnest rapids]

This one right?

[native jay]

or this one

[glossy bane]

let me quote my answer from another thread:

"currently, we have to choose between 1-3 sacrifices or 1-4 rerolls.. previous, we got 2-3 sacrifices AND 4-6 rerolls, faster than currently... we also get some more pulls now, but yeah...

I understand that it wasn't meant to make p2w even worse, since yall didn't even know about tokens, but... this means that
if I want sacrifices, I can only get like 1-2 rerolls per run... want more rerolls? PAY UP (tokens)
if I take 0 sacrifices, I can take 3-4 rerolls (unless I can get gambling beast as 2. trial, but thats still not too much)... want more rerolls? PAY UP... bad luck? too bad, you had 0 sacrifices

...all just to the same amount of loot for our time spent that we got previously, for more work (4 missions + 2 trials, instead of just 4 missions)

and side note:
flying chest runs? PAY UP... chest loot bombs..."

I'd switch 1-4 rerolls to 1-7 rerolls, because if you are lucky, you will get gambling beast as 2. trial. But more trials will get introduced 100% confirmed basically, so getting gamba beast as 2. trial will not be so easy. So 1-4 rerolls is still kinda accurate.

[brisk wren]

If the community is desperate for more transparency then you have got to stop taking every single word out of anyone with a blue or red name's mouth as solid facts because it hinders being able to be transparent at every turn

i want to reiterate that i did say this could certainly be the outcome if players see a CT member say something that upset them, and i would understand why a CT would potentially back off if this was the feedback they were getting

with a lot of statements you can clearly sweep it under the rug because it's either satire, just discussion, or really just CT chatting around

what is less acceptable is saying things like "we recognize this is not well received, but just so you guys know, we could have gone much worse!"

this isn't what players want to see when they see a bunch of overwhelming disliked changes, i know we are all human and CT are players too but these are the comments that make players see certain CT (or to an overexaggerated state, but not unheard of, seeing it as "CT as a whole") in a bad light

[mystic gull]

Ok so elusive make u not have recoil from arrow storm if u don't get hit for 2-4 seconds (aspect depending)

Before recoil change elusive was pretty much a requirement. Now it's a waste of AP. U already don't get recoil on ground. And u don't usually wanna go off ground. Anything that would make u go off ground would be an attack... But that would mean even if u had elusive u would get the recoil back.

So literally ur purpose is still the same, don't get hit. What's wrong with that. Bolt already heavily supports air and thunder and items associatied with that often are centred around agility and dexterity. So the core design is being a silly zoomies creature with shit ton of arrows and speed. The problem is the damage is fucking dogshit. But I don't see any issue with recoil

[copper grail]

you do realize saccing and rerolls are mutually exclusive options right

[glossy bane]

mutually exclusive?

sacs are a pity system

anyway that comment I more or less quoted goes a bit too far, but its undeniable that lootruns got paid features introduced in multiple layers (stackable daily reset tokens + chest loot bombs)

[copper grail]

do they not work the same as they ever did where sacrifices make you lose the chest rewards (therefore cant reroll)

[brisk wren]

my personal problem is with how its implemented recoil is either an advantage or disadvantage depending on what you're playing

to most casual players it's a disadvantage for obvious reasons

and for people that want the recoil it's an advantage because they also don't have to pick elusive

the better solution in my eyes is to seperate it so players that don't want recoil don't need to pick it, but if you do want it you can take it as an optional node, and you would be rewarded for investing in it

[glossy bane]

while we get less rr + sacs than before... we get more pulls, so thats fine... but this also means that rerolls that you can buy are now worth even more than they would have before

[kind plume]

Shares are almost certainly a monetisation feature that allows you to get more power than anything else directly and instantly. Theres no debate here. Its why its curious that this is ok while relevant paid options for content that donators also enjoy (lootruns aren't exactly restricted to f2p players) are not ok. Lootruns havent lost any of the juice that makes them good for grinding LE as a f2p player. The only thing that has changed is adding a monetisation option that is more directly linked with the content that people enjoy compared with the extremely unsatisfying experience that is purchasing shares to directly sell on the trade market.

There is nothing that forces you to engage with this in lootruns or some crazy "do you wanna pay money" banner whenever you start or end one. You don't lose anything and it doesn't "lose any soul" because of it. I simply don't see that arguments merit.

[copper grail]

also this is a very different definition of a "pity" system to me

[mystic gull]

If flying bolt had any nodes other then just recoil making it exists I'd see this as a cool thing

[mystic gull]

Pity systems are just. Ok ur luck sucked a bunch of times. But hey there is a lil stat that stacks up over time so u can still get ur stuff, pretty much guaranteed. Wynn just did it a little different to make it actually a mechanic and not just a number in the background like Telos

I hate Telos pity system eugh

[copper grail]

reworked recently

soft pity now but youll still get most drops much earlier than before on average

[brisk wren]

this is what i was able to come up with, both optional

it would eliminate forcing players to have recoil while also allowing players that do want it to get a better outcome (at the obvious cost of having the disadvantageous recoil)

[mystic gull]

Yeah I saw those, I really liked them!

It would also make archer movement actually being able to compare with others

[glossy bane]

point is, we lost our passion for lootrunning, because you can directly get a LOT better results in it if you pay up... lootrun is a one-off type of content, because in profs or in combat levelling, you don't have to build up a chain of beacon colors and missions (and trials) to get results. So paid features are a lot more accepted/acceptable there. Especially since they affect an entire server worth of players, not just yourself.

Lootruns were fun because your skills are what mattered and it was a difficult content, not just "go and mine nodes". Now, your result is determined in not a small way by paid features. And this killed our passion for lootruns.

[kind plume]

Both of the things you've mentionned have been dialed back already. Was this dialing back necessary? I won't claim to know and I dont think anybody can know. The truth of it is that its very silly to judge the impact of X amount of lootrun rerolls when its not on the live server. The price of shares will take a while to settle after the huge changes we've done as well as the uptick just because of any larger update.

Your suggestion with AP loaning would simply leave a void of AP in the midgame that would feel very bad. I truly dont think this perk with have anywhere near the amount of impact as is being let on. I could be wrong but again there's absolutely no way to know right now

[glossy bane]

we are more than willing to compromise too, if only tokens were made non-stackable, thats our only wish (why are DAILY RESET tokens even stackable anyway, if the name implies that its a token to reset the daily bonus?)

[mystic gull]

Also + arrow per stream is a lil too little to fix bolt damage I think. This would also make flying bolt meta since this adds damage. So that would be a silly silly change. I'd fucking adore it. Also gliding storm cannot be a 1ap node. This is 2 ap node, if not a red one even.

[kind plume]

Trials will obviously be rebalanced with the more feedback we get over time, All of the team behind them have been extremely receptive to feedback in the official thread as im sure you're aware

[native jay]

to be clear, given how arrow storm damage is effectively rate-limited I'm not against bumping it up, and I'm not trying to suggest by participating in this discussion that that shouldn't happen

[brisk wren]

i think you are overestimating how much damage arrow storm does on non divzer lol (even on divzer it certainly wouldn't be meta instantly with all the anti air the game has now)

the reason this isn't 2ap is because this isn't the only ability that gives escape charges

[earnest rapids]

Hmm I'm ngl I've never really thought it out myself as I like how it is now and removing the downside of arrow bomb self dmg and recoil wouldn't suddenly add more dmg and instead just make it easier to play.

Arrowstorm is fine as is imo its a shotgun spell essentially and loses alot of damage the farther away u are from things, not to mention most mobs in the game uses player models or smaller(obv there's the exception like boxes or other things) but this alr inherently leads it to do less damage just because of hit boxes. Also with how ele def works currently a considerable amount of damage is lost from ele defs not matching up or alot of dmg is gained because of it, this is more of an ele def issue but regardless 3/4 raid bosses has thunder ele def but that's just cuz I play divzer.

As for bomb yes it's a fast paced long range are spell but it still takes time and can't be queued compared to the other classes. Again I think it works fine as it is and nothing really needs to change. But classes like mage can hit similar engagement ranges while having much more are from meteor and meteors can be queued up, blood sorrow has a 24 block range forwards with forgiving are in itself to visually look like it's curving, air shout literally shoots a cone out wards that's pretty big (I don't remember how big), ec has 24 block radius kill aura that usually beats out arrow bomb. Idk personally I don't see why it should have a downside when other classes has similar if not better fast moving high range abilities. Not to mention if it's a melee mob it will try to come give u a hug do unless the intended way of playing archer is to just permanently have farsighted on it sucks for arrow bomb

I just don't personally see why arrowstorm u have to play with Myopic(12 block) gambit and arrow bomb u have to play with farsighted( 3block)

[kind plume]

The paid features don't give you a free pass to a 100 challenge lootrun. They don't make it easier, they don't give you extra beacon choices or better effects. They affect the one thing that you could just sell shares to buy anyway: reward drops. Surely you can agree that the tokens are at worst the same level of "bad" as shares and at best (if you're unlucky) far less "p2w" than shares right?

[mystic gull]

I played bolt with aiac lmao, kinda loved it even tho I did maybe 60k peaks. But yeah probably ur right. Also adding more arrows means more recoil which means more easier flying. So I'm all hands down.

We also need a node that gives like slow fall for 1.2 seconds after using recoil or something cancelable with shift. Cuz it's way too easy to fall if ur not using macros at the moment

[copper grail]

i think designing a feature that makes idiots lose money is bad game design

[earnest rapids]

What's aiac I genuinely don't know

[mystic gull]

Air in a can

[earnest rapids]

Ohh gotcha

[copper grail]

bro just say that 😭

[mystic gull]

Funny fabled bow that gives you +5 jump height and freerunner major ID. Tho I think that major ID is broken, never worked for me

[brisk wren]

nah thats a sharp node and its pretty well received so i dont think bolt would be getting one and i personally dont think it's that hard, i don't use macros and i can manage flying decently well even tho i dont have much practice

[native jay]

but the thing is none of that actually addresses the question.

the downside exists so as to differentiate bomb arrow's use cases from arrow storm's, preventing the former from overshadowing the latter via spammability. it's not a matter of "bomb arrow deserves downsides" it's a matter of "bomb arrow should not start out able to fill a kit role better than another spell" and its downside springing off of that.

[mystic gull]

Most people that play bolt or just archer in general know about aiac. It's how alka is alactra, crabs is crusade sabatoons, zelot is panic zeloc, tcc etc.

And it's also just easy to explain if someone asks so why should I type 4 words instead of 4 letters

[brisk wren]

what do you think about recoil

[mystic gull]

While we're on the topic anyone wanna explain what acam is cuz I don't understand

Saw it when looking at a sharp stratiformis build

[earnest rapids]

Idk I can't really give an answer tbh but I just don't see why it's so scrutinized on archer and then amplified on bolt where as other classes have this issue but it's not really addressed gimme a sec to think about it tho then I go pass out

[native jay]

on bomb arrow I think it makes sense.
on arrow storm I don't think so, but I recognize that flying boltslinger is a fun niche that deserves to exist, so with it being airborne-only now I think it's fine and works thematically with the chaotic nature of bolt

[carmine heath]

love how there's 3 different discussions going on and none are on the thread's original topic

[copper grail]

meteor vs ice snake

although ice snake has its usage on gust riftwalker tho

[brisk wren]

do you think it deserves to exist while simultaneously not forcing players that don't want it to have to pick elusive and play around it all the time?

[copper grail]

but ice snake doesnt self damage you and cripple an archetype lol

[native jay]

you jokin with me here? damage vs status. even if ccr messes with that it's still a role to fill

very fundamentally different roles

[copper grail]

cci does mess with a lot of things funnily enough

[mystic gull]

When I told people to stay on topic I got laughed at so I just don't care and joined them

[native jay]

I think it's fine as is, and also think it's unlikely to ever go away fully. recoil in air only was the compromise

[mystic gull]

U should look at my last post where it devolved into 500 messages long discussion about homosexuality and ethics 💀

[glossy bane]

I think I can understand you now better, or more like I got a confirmation. Quite obvious, tbh. You cannot see my points because you cannot see the certain core things in the players perspective, because you see it from a developer and weight/balance perspective. What's missing is a bit more insight towards the human side of things probably. But I can only speculate, this is just my observation, may or may not be true, I'm just a random veteran player.

I hoped that you will give other reasons for AP loaning and lootrun tokens than "it will likely not have as big of an impact as we think".. I hoped for more.. player's perspective type reasons.

I appreciate your and the wynncraft team's receptiveness towards conversations and talking it through though.

"Trials will obviously be rebalanced" yeah, they will be, but I've spent days in lootrun threads, and they won't be rebalanced in a way where they would give more rerolls. It's just their difficulty and gimmicks will be rebalanced. As it should be btw, because the new system is so much better than the old system, if we don't look at the new paid features.

"The paid features don't give you a free pass to a 100 challenge lootrun." yeah, they don't.. but once again you missed my points completely about the human side of things, I could only repeat my exact comment that you answered to

There is a difference between paid feature and paid feature based on the implementation and based on the type of content its implemented into. That's why paid features in lootruns are different than paid features like combat bombs, prof bombs, or even combat and prof totems.

"Surely you can agree that the tokens are at worst the same level of "bad" as shares and at best (if you're unlucky) far less "p2w" than shares right?" Shares are a GOOD thing. Tokens are a BAD thing. It doesn't matter that shares are more p2w than tokens, if shares are accepted and even liked, and tokens are hated, so instead, ask yourself/yourselves why that is.

[native jay]

I think arrow storm recoil is fine to have to play around.

[earnest rapids]

I mean on shade isn't the cycle just stab stab dash spin is just to add marks fast and bomb is for marks aswell just slower, dash is used as vanish and a reset in the spell cycle while stab is just carrying like 90% of the dmg. This is in context of spell only not abilities so excluding knives and marks mainly which are just extra dmg and damag amplifier

[brisk wren]

not what im saying, im simply asking to seperate it

[native jay]

I don't think that will happen is the thing, which is why I said what I said

fundamentally salted does not want recoil to be optional for boltslinger

[brisk wren]

😭

why do we want archer players to just suffer lol

[copper grail]

yes we know salted wants to overload archer tree with useless hype moments and aura shit but why does ct want to follow that

[native jay]

I do not think I or anyone else will convince him elsewise, and the arrow storm recoil does create a lot of unique opportunities for boltslinger that are best utilized in the air, hence the compromise of arrow storm recoil only being in air

[native jay]

that sure is a very interesting and extremely confrontational choice of words

[copper grail]

not exactly wrong though look at the stomp nodes

[brisk wren]

i acknowledge recoil can be very fun but forcing players that don't want to play around it is just unfun and pretty questionable to say the least

it's not the same as arrow bomb which is far more acceptable

[copper grail]

i dont think he should have this much of a say on class balance than the people actually designing

[earnest rapids]

Idk I don't think storm or bomb outperforms one or the other it has its own place I just don't see why it has to have inherent draw backs to them. Storm is the close range attack and bomb is the long range. They cycle is storm bomb bomb because recasting storm is much more punishing than recasting bomb and canceling ur arrow bomb abilities

[native jay]

term said somethin about this earlier about how opportunity cost and negatives can build up an archetype's identity in a positive way, and I think air-only arrow storm recoil fits that to a T, but grounded arrow storm recoil was genuinely disgusting to play around

[earnest rapids]

I sentence salted to play 2nd room of tna on bolt in pfinder

[glossy bane]

I misspoke. Not human side of things, but player perspective things. You are just a human too, you have human insight, just not player perspective, but more of a developer insight.

[native jay]

hey, in fairness before i left AT I'd had plans on making those a lot more useful. theyre still pinned in the AT questions thread though i cant say at this point whether or not AT is intending on using those ideas still

it's out of my hands at this juncture

[earnest rapids]

Idk end of the day it's not gonna change oh well it sucks I'll just hope bolt rework will address some of the issue while keeping the same feel of a fast close range hyperglass

[native jay]

i only tried to do what i could

[earnest rapids]

Also Guardian angels suck as it is rn and serves to add very minimal dmg

Ok I pce out

[brisk wren]

for some things it makes sense

acolyte loses their health to empower their abilities and eventually heal back while dealing damage and supporting their group

fallen loses health to convert it to spell usage while empowering their damage

arcanist lets go of their ability to heal in order to convert their spells into even more spells, and those spells lead to more spells...

what does archer have? a recoil that hinders gameplay at certain scenarios and forces you to play around it (thankfully not as bad since it's not tied to ground-only anymore) while giving basically no upside for it

[earnest rapids]

It always circles back to mana printing abilities and their strength

[green canopy]

why is bolt being discussed here instead of the appropriate threads

[brisk wren]

it doesn't have to as seen with acolyte

[glossy bane]

By the way, someone gave another good point.

"rates - I’ve been largely fine with hidden mythic rates so far, but the ability to pay into lootrun outcomes via refreshes does make me want to know rates more since you’d be paying money into a black box system"

tokens are not just a p2w gambling system, but also you don't even know your exact outcome chances like you know with crates now, where the % chance for each tier cosmetic is displayed for each crate

[glossy bane]

..I hope he didn't missunderstood it as being rude btw. I'm just analyzing, although I should take into account the devs feelings more and I now feel bad about the way I wrote that first point.

I hope he will still read it though.

[glossy bane]

also, relating to the lootrun tokens...

time to lootrun on 3 accounts per day, for free daily reroll bonuses, since rerolls will worth a lot more than before

even better if there are multiple good camps, because then multiple times 3 lootruns per day

but this is more of a point to lootrun balancing and silverbull sub giving an extra reroll too

[mystic gull]

He's the fucking owner dawg

He's quite literally the boss, what more reason do u want

[mystic gull]

Ur EO commentary was fire. Why did u leave AT btw?

[mystic gull]

Because no one cares about my idea enough I guess

[glossy bane]

I'd also be quite mad if archer arrow storm recoil would get completely removed. Many players love that feature.

[mystic gull]

[copper grail]

people have already discussed that it should be an opt in feature

[copper grail]

consider that the owner might not necessarily have the best ideas on balance

hence the existence of a balance team

[glossy bane]

yeah it could be an optional node to either disable or to enable it, based on what the default is

but then... ah its all complicated... so many balance and "lore" things would have to be discussed about it (lore = whether arrow should recoil you or not, etc.)

[copper grail]

how is it complicated 😭😭

[glossy bane]

anyway, that archetype is getting reworked after Fruma, no?

[copper grail]

you have no recoil for people who want to play bolt normally and the recoil for the flying bolt enjoyers

[mystic gull]

Yeah but that's exactly my point, he's the owner, he doesn't need to give a single shit about ur point. I'm not saying it's a good reason but if salted says don't remove recoil... That's quite literally it. Nothing else can be done

[copper grail]

assumedly

[glossy bane]

idk then... I'll just refrain from forming big opinions about this then

since I don't play much arrow storm combat archetype

I'm just happy if it stays in the game in the format of optional movement ability

[copper grail]

does make balance team kinda redundant wouldnt you think?

[glossy bane]

(at least movement ability)

[copper grail]

well in this case specifically

[mystic gull]

Once again I'm not saying ur wrong. I'm just saying salted is the Ultimate power. Unless he gets a partner that becomes obsessed with wynn then probably that partner would be the ultimate power

New strat for bolt rework to come faster become salteds wife and threaten for divorce

Oh wow I gained two more
-# yay

[weary wadi]

i would keep recoil if bolt does triple the damage

[mystic gull]

Yuh

[kind plume]

The reason why my arguments have been framed in this way is because I believe that the only way to understand the real impact of the changes is to use logic.

The only way that the initial very human reaction of negativity towards new paid features (which would have always happened no matter what!) can ever be dispelled is through logically explaining the thought process and how it is being misunderstood or misrepresented in some way leading to it feeling like a much larger problem than it is.

We can't simply not make changes that the community "don't like the sound of" despite them being beneficial changes for a multitude of reasons. The actual main reason for posts against some of this stuff is precisely what i've commented on aswell: Their supposed "pay to win" nature.

If the pure feeling of someone paying money being able to take shortcuts is what you feel is humanly wrong then I think we will struggle to come to a consensus because these features have not only existed in Wynncraft for almost its entire lifetime but also are completely necessary for this game to be free for those that don't want to pay in the first place. Things in the form of bombs that majorly get used by the small group that throws them, totems that get used by an EVEN smaller amount of people and most recently silverbull shares that allows you to literally buy any item that someone else may have worked tirelessly to grind for. Do you agree that these things can very easily also feel that you can "directly get a lot better results if you pay up" and that mob grinding was fun because you had to take real time to do it making it an achievement and "now your result is determined in not a small way by paid features"

I fully respect that paid features being added to any content in the game that didn't have it from its initial addition will always be controversial and cause debate. I do also understand and welcome the many questions about "is this too far?" because its quite possible it could be!

But at the same time I can't get behind the idea that adding an option to take a shortcut in a piece of content in a very similar way to already established norms in our game is "ruining" that piece of content

[weak oak]

the issue isnt "more paid features", its "more paid features that make the free experience worse"

[kind plume]

What we're discussing has no impact on the free experience

The most applicable change for that argument would be class slots which I did comment about earlier in the day

[maiden echo]

Btw how much space are the character slots gonna save

If 76% didnt even use them according to salted

[kind plume]

Although its kinda not too relevant now because we changed it from 3 -> 5

[weak oak]

this ap loaning or reroll tokens?

[kind plume]

well both to be honest

[maiden echo]

Still missing 1

[kind plume]

which is why my message from earlier is still meaningful

[maiden echo]

Im just saying in general

[weary wadi]

ap loaning does affect but rr tokens is cosmetic so it doesnt

[kind plume]

not sure what you mean to be honest

[weak oak]

ap loaning being abused in raids will negatively impact the free experience (everyones experience tbh) and reroll tokens idk enough about to really comment

[maiden echo]

I thought it was a cost saving measure to make it so players dont needlessly waste server space on classes they dont really need

I could very well and easily be wrong on that

If so then what is the main reason for decreasing the amount of slots

[kind plume]

Did you read my message from earlier?

[maiden echo]

No

[kind plume]

Or this post: https://forums.wynncraft.com/threads/update-on-the-wardrobe-wonders-patch.322148/

the original changelog could also have some detail too tbh

[weary wadi]

yeah thats why people jump into conclusions

[maiden echo]

Could you link me your earlier message?

On phone atm so harder to search for it

[kind plume]

its a bit of a reply chain tbh lol

Salted's forum post is also a good shout

[maiden echo]

Ah so its just money making not saving oriented

[glossy bane]

Now we are talking (on the same wavelength).

"Things in the form of bombs that majorly get used by the small group that throws them, totems that get used by an EVEN smaller amount of people and most recently silverbull shares that allows you to literally buy any item that someone else may have worked tirelessly to grind for. Do you agree that these things can very easily also feel that you can "directly get a lot better results if you pay up" and that mob grinding was fun because you had to take real time to do it making it an achievement and "now your result is determined in not a small way by paid features"

Yes, I agree. Combat xp and prof bombs and totems can be seen and are a way to get a lot better results if you pay up. Of course, they can affect a small group of players, not just you, so that makes it better, but let's disregard that for a moment.

If I focus sharply on whats the problem here:

The amount of effort you need to get into combat levelling or proffing is very little, compared to learning everything about lootruns. And combat levelling is quick even in solo, and there are levelling parties anyway. That content is done quickly, and has an end-goal.

Professions don't really have an end-goal, and are clearly p2w, but are accepted, because you could just lootrun (or raid) for LE and buy everything, or get into a guild and get informed and use prof parties. Also, getting to lvl 100-110 profs is not that difficult, even as a f2p unranked player nowadays.

So again, the amount of effort needed for combat activities and professions is not even close to the effort needed to be able to reliably, successfuly lootrun with good results.

Yes, lootruns and profs/combat are the same type of p2w (if we disregard that profs/combat affect a small group of players). But the MAIN problem is how lootruns require so much effort, and yet that effort can be boosted to like twice as much results by just using daily reset tokens (or chest loot bombs).

So people accept combat and prof bombs and totems because they are a low effort activity to begin with, while they don't accept massively boosting a very high effort activity (lootrunning) by just paying up.

And our compromise was/is to make tokens non-stackable, so they still provide a small bonus, but you have to work for it more, so players who don't want to use tokens would feel like their quite big effort (because lootruns are very difficult) is worth it.

(Some players, who would never use 3 tokens per run, maybe would even use that 1 token per run occasionally as a result, but this point is just my complete speculation, so don't take it into account.)

In any case, if yall want to keep tokens in the game, yall should disclose the rates of each item's chance in the end-reward chest, otherwise its literal gambling without knowing the odds, which might even be illegal.

(I say might because I'm not a lawyer.)

[glossy bane]

Yeah, fine. It is not ruining the content, it just lowers the quality of the content (by a lot in my and other people's opinions).

But also, can I ask, what is this "very similar way to already established norms" that you are saying? Like which already existing paid feature?

[glossy bane]

by the way, this could also be solved by just adding a few rerolls to each trial, but if we look at it as tokens and chest loot bombs don't exist, then the current new reroll + sacrifice amounts are so much better designed than the old ones... now it feels like our decisions have some weight, and its not as easy to just spam 4 rr/sac missions, but instead, you have to take only 2 trials (and maybe +1 rr +1 sac from 2 missions, IF you are willing to sacrifice 2 missions for those).

Since the new design is so good, it is not an option to just add a few rerolls to each trials. The only option is to make tokens non-stackable.

[glossy bane]

the goal is to raise more recurring revenue for wynncraft, for better and bigger updates, faster

thats the goal of the current update, from what I can tell (besides adding cool features)

(and besides maybe one day Salted being able to pay the CT some extra benefits for their volutary work)

[maiden echo]

Yea I thought it was just to save on server space

[glossy bane]

wait what

[maiden echo]

I dont think that will be happening anytime soon

[glossy bane]

well thats a very long term goal of his

[maiden echo]

Its hard though

Paying a decent salary to so many people isnt easy

[glossy bane]

anyway that was just an additional point, not happening anytime soon as you said

[maiden echo]

Fair enough

[kind plume]

Anything is better than nothing really. As salted said we now have around 30 paid members of our team and we'd love to have more

[glossy bane]

CT gotta be happy with crates for a while :

[maiden echo]

That is true

But something purely supplementary wouldnt be the ideal goal

[glossy bane]

well for voluntary work, it might be enough... if they are professionals, then proper hiring and salary is warranted though

[hollow nexus]

in all honesty, I don’t think anyone was expecting there to be a poll made for every single decision behind the scenes. I do agree though that there is a huge disconnect between some of the stuff that is in the game/the game is leading to vs. what the players want with it. I’m not saying that polls even have to be taken with 100% certainty, it’s just that if theres any question of how the community wants something, just poll it and get an answer. Polls don’t even have to directly lead to changes, if anything you guys can make polls and then do nothing with them but just have the knowledge of what the community prefers in the back of your mind. Ultimately, I think if polls were implemented and then balance changes were polled, that’s kinda on bad phrasing. Like imo when going about nerfs and such, you can just be open like “Fallen has been extremely strong lately, which part of the kit do you think is causing this issue?” listing several of its main ability points to give the idea to CT which abilities should be tweaked rather than removing one of its most essential tools that it needs to survive. Polls should honestly not be just balance though but generally just used to get feedback, I’ve seen far too many statements that claim something about the general playerbase when I’ve seen honestly quite the opposite reaction from the actual community. Some examples are: “Are lightbender orbs consistent to hit on smaller targets and work well?” or “Was the general playstyle of acrobat more fun on the new rework or the old one?”

Obviously there’s going to be a difference of opinion on some stuff but the community does have quite a consensus on many topics but I feel like the CT just sometimes doesn’t really hear that feedback or if it’s heard, it’s not in the numbers that would make it actually count to show a true majority opinion.

[unreal flare]

Not missing 1, it was too many to begin with.

[glossy bane]

I should also add. Shares might be "0 effort, but 100% loot". Which can be seen as completely contradicting my point about effort. However, in reality, it doesn't contradict, but strengthen my point.

Shares are an even lower effort "activity" than combat levelling or professions. And they don't have any type of direct effect on any type of content, which is key. (except for silverbull subscription, but that is quite easy to farm out, and it gives so many very tiny things for so cheap price, that its accepted... now the +1 daily reroll for silverbull sub in lootruns is a bit controversial, but uhh.. I guess I can compromise, even though it encourages me to lootrun on at least 2 accounts at once while accumulating glint time on my alt.)

[glossy bane]

yeah, 5 is perfectly acceptable, 5 class types = 5 slots

I understand the point about gamemodes, but gotta compromise

[floral wasp]

i think scripters should be next in line to be paid

[hollow nexus]

someone pay my goat sock

[floral wasp]

agreed

hire me as PR specialist the people love me

[hollow nexus]

on a real note though please do find someone to be a community manager for Wynn for pr tho 🙏

[hollow nexus]

Great minds think alike

[glossy bane]

...they already have a community manager?

[hollow nexus]

Nah they don’t, just a CT manager p sure

[glossy bane]

so you want a PR people?

[hollow nexus]

community manager should be actively searching for feedback like constantly: responding to all feedback posts, hosting polls for input, getting information about certain pieces of content and thoughts on them, etc.

[glossy bane]

just no

[hollow nexus]

wowzers

[glossy bane]

the main job of a community manager should be to close the bridge between players, CT and owner+managers... not to look for specific feedback

[floral wasp]

i do think we probably need a dedicated "feedback guy" who can trawl through all the feedback threads, because there's usually quite a lot of really good feedback mixed in with pages of flame wars and non-constructive criticism, so it'd be useful to have someone who can distill these threads down into the useful information

[hollow nexus]

Isn’t that what I just said

[glossy bane]

nop, responding to all feedback is not what they should do

[hollow nexus]

I just said someone to close the gap basically by looking for feedback and being on the players side

[glossy bane]

their role should be observant with the focus on bridging the gap between players, ct, and owner+managers... and only respond and go into conversations if they think it has something to do with that

the part about constantly scouting feedback threads and chats (in work time) is somewhat right though

[hollow nexus]

I feel like some CT members (sorry), always take an antagonistic stance as soon as they see any feedback related to a concept and it honestly is frustrating to see and read

[floral wasp]

lol ya it's ok

[glossy bane]

its probably an idea that particular CT worked on for a long time, so its probably human reaction

but indeed, CT should be ready to throw their ideas and works into the fire, if it turns out to be bad or not fit wynncraft

[floral wasp]

i'd like to think i listen to feedback and am not too confrontational but i think it's only natural sometimes when people are shitting on (and not always in a constructive way!) content you've worked on for several months sometimes

[glossy bane]

so a community manager could help with this in certain scenarios, but just one human cannot do everything so keep that in mind

[hollow nexus]

this is one of the reasons I want polls tbh, spending a lot of time on something to realize after the fact that people don’t like it is harsh. It’s probably why some CT don’t even interact with the community but ultimately it’s a tragic system where stuff is made and then players react only after it’s fully made and published.

[glossy bane]

a community manager might be a bridge between players and hams (the CT and whatnot manager)

[glossy bane]

too many polls = people stop responding to them

only big topics/important decisions/controversial decisions should get polled, polls should feel somewhat special

[hollow nexus]

there will always be people responding, I can assure you that. The numbers for the first few polls might heavily outweigh later polls but there will be a consistent following

I know for a fact that there are people in the Wynn community that care about its future and what decisions are best for the server

[glossy bane]

but those people benefit a lot more from feedback threads, where they can not only already upvote and downvote (poll) threads, but also discuss their opinions

polls are meant to be for big things to check the wider opinion

the missing link is CT not having the time to read through these threads, so a solution for that should be found

there are only a few important conclusions in each thread that the CT actually needs to see