#Content Team members and how to fix their reputation. Terminated said no, kinda sad

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

mystic gull
#

Title

I actually used the search bar, there is nothing like this. So this is ofc a suggestion, we love those ;—;

However I hope this seems actually useful to y'all.

The feedback channels... Are mostly filled with negative feedback. Sometimes it's very good constructed, formatted and non 5 hours of playtime bullshit. But even then it's negative feedback. Now that makes one wonder wow is there really so little to praise the game for?

-# no there isn't, Wynn is a fucking miracle and spectacular experience if anything

However we humans don't like change. Most of us. Especially us so called "gamers" people that sacrifice they're life and soul for this game. For better or for worse. And when we see a change that we had no info of, just happen what's a better idea then to make a feedback post. But then soon thousands follow (exaggerating of course, more like tens)

This is because we only ever can infuence a change after it has been made, not before. This leaves a sour taste of dissapointment in most mouths.

#

wow no way time to stop yapping and say my actual suggestion

CT's ideas board.

The general concept is that we get a constructive feedback channel, however no one but red or blue names can make posts, they can also make polls there.

So my idea is that say a CT wants to make a change. A major change. Changing some random legendary or a block in a build, thats not major. Major is mythics/aspects/gameplay loops/raids/abilities

They state their idea, a custom ping pings all people interested in that channel. They also state their reason for the idea. This is very important and often overlooked when talking with CT

-# this community has some fucking crazy people who will make graphs to prove their point of fallen changes being bad. We need those people in a channel like that.

I also think that there should be a much more heavily enforced status system so inviduals Foxxo or alike just don't get access to messaging, they can only answer polls or stuff like that. And also a very very long message cooldown for non consistent people like someone just brand new to a channel like that.

Thank you for coming to my Ted talk

dusty cove
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um actually its their reputation not they're reputation

mystic gull
#

-# yeah here is a prime example why we need a rep/status system :/

copper grail
#

laggard thread

dusty cove
#

their is possessive while they're is a contraction of they are, so "how to fix they are reputation" wouldnt make sense

copper grail
#

@wicked umbra

indigo dune
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Selvut higher rep than salted

mystic gull
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Content Team members and how to fix their reputation.

#

I was not talking to you Telos

copper grail
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i have feedback on this feedback

#

these exist

#

also you are using a forum that facilitates this medium of communicating between ct and players

mystic gull
copper grail
#

how is it not

#

you want a communication medium this is what you get

#

contrary to what you believe ct isnt an amorphous hivemind

mystic gull
#

AT questions, people ask CT questions, not the CT ask people questions, IM's the same

fallow widget
#

I don't think most CT are that hated
I mean you have a selvut every now and again but even then, Selvut still doesn't get that much flack the few times he speaks up now

copper grail
#

youll get specific perspectives from specific people and thats where youll be discussing your pov to such people

mystic gull
#

I don't mean actual invidual people I meant more like just the word CT. Pretty much everyone at some point said ah but CT hate us/any variation of that

mystic gull
fallow widget
#

Plenty are well-liked even
Like Winteria for example, I don't think I've found anyone that dislikes him

woeful horizon
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i mean, hated CTs don't help

woeful horizon
#

selvut takes can sometimes be extremely wrong and feel like ragebait

mystic gull
woeful horizon
#

and we all know what samsam said the day p2wynn was announced

fallow widget
#

true
Samsam didn't help on this front when she tried to support the pay2win bs not long ago

woeful horizon
wicked umbra
copper grail
#

laggards man

fallow widget
#

I mean look, a good chunk chunk of us still have things like END PAY TO WYNN and KILL P2WYNN in our uns

woeful horizon
#

they know what to nerf

mystic gull
#

Content Team members and how to fix their reputation. This is no way an attack on invidual CT's!!!

woeful horizon
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they just don't know how

wicked umbra
#

@violet plover

copper grail
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like

#

give us an example here

woeful horizon
#

hero is being nerfed again, but that won't change absolutely anything if air dmg armor is still unchanged

#

hero has been nerfed more than 8 times

violet plover
fallow widget
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for 100k max dps to be ok, you'd have to have enemy health reduced to like 1/3 of what it is now across the board

mystic gull
woeful horizon
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a 9th nerf won't solve anything

violet plover
wicked umbra
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this guy will NOT put it on god this isnt ragebait

copper grail
mystic gull
wicked umbra
fallow widget
pliant topaz
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Democracy is the rule of the people

woeful horizon
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if u don't get why i'm trying to say it's ok

pliant topaz
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But the people are

woeful horizon
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no need to be rude :/

mystic gull
# woeful horizon damn chill

I have yet to get a single post of mine that has not been derailed it's kinda getting really goddamn annoying 😭

woeful horizon
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now u have a bad rep and i don't want to follow this thread, imma downvote this

mystic gull
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Okey

wicked umbra
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LMFAOOOO he will simply NOT put it on the record this isnt ragebait... 💔🥀

pliant topaz
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This will fix negativity until the moment a nerf is required and all poll options are negative

fallow widget
#

ok, back on subject then

woeful horizon
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wynn needs to give more importance to support playstyles

woeful horizon
#

a pure DPS meta isn't healthy for this game

soft veldt
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This is because we only ever can infuence a change after it has been made, not before. This leaves a sour taste of dissapointment in most mouths.

I think this is the best way to put it ngl

mystic gull
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Thank you 🙏

fallow widget
#

I love playing support that isn't just outright healing
I love when games manage to get players to coordinate and work together.

wicked umbra
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hi @mystic gull can you simply state "this is not ragebait"

soft veldt
fallow widget
soft veldt
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stop derailing

wicked umbra
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i havent given my opinion because the premise of this thread has to be ragebait

violet plover
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like imagine we had an archetype that used kunai as its primary weapon. and the way it healed is by using these papers called "healing ofuda" and u have to shoot them at ur friends and they home. and this archetype also has the ability to climb on walls. and it can teleport to party members with a 6 second cooldown. and it has a 15 second cooldown mini healing bomb that cleanses aswell and gives invulnerability for 0.65s.

thoughts @wicked umbra? i really think i cooked with this one !!! 😊

soft veldt
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wynncraft player that cant fathom the idea of a different opinion (it has to be a convoluted scheme to get people mad at them)

violet plover
soft veldt
#

just because you get mad, doesnt make it ragebait

wicked umbra
soft veldt
copper grail
soft veldt
fallow widget
#

I think the insanely high mobility that most classes have in Wynn makes support harder to pull off without giving said support very strong effects or very high AOE reach. And we can't remove the high mobility, as enemies are balanced around said high mobility. That and the backlash of everyone being slower all the sudden.

mystic gull
soft veldt
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LOL

mystic gull
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I actually completely stand for this post and despise trolling

wicked umbra
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This is not ragebait I fucking despise ragebait and the one time I tried it with my brother he said I might be the worst ragebaiter in the world so please stop posting philosophical fucking cat gifs with wilted rose emoji

fallow widget
wicked umbra
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anyhow!

wicked umbra
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the easiest way to stop cts being hated on is to stop letting them run the ct's image

#

you're free to discuss whatever but when cts are obnoxious and tweak out at their playerbase no shit they're going to be disliked

soft veldt
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the easiest way to stop ct hate is to encourage ct <-> player communication and openess

mystic gull
soft veldt
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and stop releasing bad changes
2 step process

fallow widget
copper grail
soft veldt
#

the RW womp womp incident

copper grail
#

Wow that directly affects me

soft veldt
fallow widget
wicked umbra
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selvut saying calling out people doing weirdo shouts is homophobia

copper grail
#

I think Qol should not come with such a massive tradeoff

wicked umbra
#

madeline telling people to "peel their skin off with a cheese grater"

#

yesterday's incident in lore discussion

soft veldt
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on some level I get it though

#

the community can say ts to them but they arent allowed to spit back?

wicked umbra
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yeah that's how it works

soft veldt
soft veldt
fallow widget
kind plume
wicked umbra
#

a lot of the time you're going to get a vocal minority (sometimes majority) who do not like changes or features

kind plume
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But for this to work moderation has to work too and there's far too much stuff going on for the mods to be present for it all. You guys yap a lot!

wicked umbra
#

it would serve much better saying "we'll take this feedback on board!" rather than arguing and trying to convince people who (no offense) play the game more than you

hollow nexus
# soft veldt the RW womp womp incident

some specific instances like this do affect the rest of the team unfortunately but I do believe that overall, the CT is made up of people that want the best for the game. It's just stereotyping based off of a few incidents, if a proper solution were to be put into effect: realistically it'd just be having a community manager that brings in all feedback that is good with interacting with the community rather than each individual CT member giving their own opinion on things which can lead to conflict.

mystic gull
wicked umbra
#

also notice how it's a vocal minority of cts who get "harassed" despite the fact they've usually argued with community members about it

copper grail
violet plover
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idk i mean with the typa structure wynncraft has i think the ct are always gonna bear the blame (even tho theyre volunteers)

delicate temple
brisk wren
copper grail
#

Yet lame ass mods closed down my request, intriguing!

hollow nexus
soft veldt
# kind plume This is the deal yeah

Personally I dont have an issue with CT being rude or making jokes in poor taste because I get it. The wynn community can be horrible at times and its a lot of pressure to maintain professionalism. I know a lot of CT feel a huge amount of pressure and deal with a lot of hate so I dont really judge them for their outbursts

kind plume
#

And I wouldn't be surprised if the mods are somewhat terrified to even use their power because the slightest moderation of people misbehaving creates a whole crash out with everyone claiming rubbish about 1984, their rights being infringed and how the mods are power tripping

wicked umbra
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being a ct and acting like a know it all because you make the content just makes you look bad and i feel bad for other cts who have to bear the brunt of other cts' actions

wicked umbra
violet plover
brisk wren
violet plover
#

and also are the mods really "terrified"??? theyve punished like 15 people for being off topic in the new channel yesterday

soft veldt
lost zealot
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imma keep it a bean i dont think ive had a bad reaction with ct's

wicked umbra
#

but unfortunately the actions of the vocal few outweigh the actions of the silent many

mystic gull
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I'd fucking kill for a /purge Jesus, apart from that one dude with blue pfp no one said anything useful

violet plover
hollow nexus
#

thanks twin (there's two blue pfp)

wicked umbra
#

ragebait op, mods delete please 😊 (also @violet plover bean vc mr bro)

brisk wren
#

whats scary is that ct can just make huge ass changes and stay silent about them until beta drops

days or weeks of dev time gets dumped into this

and then if players dont like it then oh well...

copper grail
#

lf boltslinger compensation

violet plover
mystic gull
brisk wren
# copper grail lf boltslinger compensation

this is what im specifically scared about btw since ive heard before that the person in charge of bolt rework wants to stay hidden

i fully understand not wanting to be super involved but that's what a CT manager is for lol

mystic gull
copper grail
#

Dawg

mystic gull
#

No actually I need to shut up I'm making it worse ffs

eternal gorge
#

Hey i think drawwy is wrong idk the context

mystic gull
#

I'll leave the primordial soup of greatest minds to work

soft veldt
#

yeah ill take it from here

tawny orbit
#

major changes to content with a vote on like or likent is asking for bias

mystic gull
brisk wren
wicked umbra
barren gull
#

self upvoted post, just delete the thread gng

violet plover
mystic gull
soft veldt
#

bro

brisk wren
#

bro is tagging mods when theres a mod in the thread

hollow nexus
#

can't have any normal discussion in this cord 🥀

edgy portal
#

why are we here

hollow nexus
#

how's your day

soft veldt
mystic gull
#

And ye and that one other guy

copper grail
violet plover
mystic gull
violet plover
#

just accept the responses from people stop tweaking out on everyone

hollow nexus
#

terminated typing up a bomb right now or smth

tawny orbit
mystic gull
hollow nexus
#

can we all sit criss cross applesauce and wait patiently

mystic gull
tawny orbit
#

i am aware

copper grail
hollow nexus
#

😔

tawny orbit
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doesn't mean you need to provoke them for it 😔

#

i mean no ill when i say you are reacting pretty aggressively at people

#

even if the overall point is fair

violet plover
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yea

tawny orbit
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or i should say, you react a bit too heated

soft veldt
wicked umbra
#

this aint even ragebait on my end but the premise of the thread was so silly i assumed it had to be ragebait

#

especially with the reactions to the slightest negative comment about certain cts

copper grail
#

yes because there are a gazillion existing mediums that already serve the purpose for op's solution

mystic gull
copper grail
#

making another single channel is just redundant atp

tawny orbit
#

kind of like it already is

#

with ask at etc

soft veldt
copper grail
#

ideas are first stated and then developed from further discussion from those existing outlets

barren gull
#

the world if this thread wasn't a thread but instead a concise and respectful letter sent privately to the dev team

hollow nexus
#

ultimately, a lot of the problems in this thread would be alright if there was a community manager who has a great amount of patience and doesn't mind putting up with lots of negative feedback so that they can communicate with players and get input that'll be listened to like

a lot of those traits can't be expected from any CT member at random which is where the issue occurs when all CT who do actively talk in channels do indeed hear things that they may/may not like and bias plays a role when talking about certain topics.

soft veldt
#

no offence

barren gull
copper grail
median plover
copper grail
#

UNNERF ENTROPY PLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

primal otter
#

you'd make a good ct with how upset you get at everything

soft veldt
#

this entire thread is troll imma just wait for term's message

mystic gull
hollow nexus
kind plume
#

I can respond directly to this thread right now and say that we are not going to run every decision (even large ones) by you.

It wouldn't make sense logistically or marketing wise. It would also lead to disappointment in a huge number of cases and crash outs because of it. The transparency we already provide is often to the complete detriment of progress due to misinformation, plans changing and feedback about things that haven't even been played with ingame yet.

Spoiler alert! We have a ton of ideas that never make it to live that go through many processes, some even getting an inch away and never being pushed.

We have an ever growing team of people that give opinions on changes and create changes themselves, they are ALL Wynncraft players and lovers like you. They literally are our group of players who not only get a say in major things we do for the game but also create and push their own things. You can always apply to join them if you want to do the same, I encourage you too like

I've seen while typing this many people talk about the CT as if they pull some idea out of thin air and then just go implement it. They are lovers of the things they are changing and just like a bunch of you have lots of experience with that thing!

copper grail
#

also seperate ct roles by their department than just one blue role thanks 😊 😊🤗

brisk wren
#

i think there are a lot of good examples of CT rn

but there are also a few examples of CT that dish statements that just prove they don't play the game enough to know what they're talking about

mystic gull
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Besides I don't get mad at negative feedback, I actually enjoy people telling me I'm worse then them, or dumber or something. I'm mad when people just decide to talk a about stuff that's in no way related to my post

#

Like hero nerfs/enthropy

brisk wren
hollow nexus
copper grail
#

bro its always hero thats mentioned when someone gotta talk about some hypothetical game killing nerf 😂😂

mystic gull
wicked umbra
kind plume
kind plume
lost zealot
#

caught..

#

checked the api usage

wicked umbra
#

this guy gonna make me do a statistical breakdown of all cts and their playtimes

mystic gull
#

Content Team members and how to fix their reputation. Terminated said no, I guess u can lock it mods

soft veldt
copper grail
#

DO NOT LOCK THIS THREAD

wicked umbra
hollow nexus
#

this thread lived its life imo, what was said was said. I doubt that any other feedback would change much if the decision is set in stone like how it is.

copper grail
brisk wren
#

term i think you missed a good main point of this thread that is despite your (appreciated and pretty consistent) transparency there's a few notable CT members making statements that make players understandably upset (and fwif, other CT members lol)

this is why a lot of players hold the opinion that some CT just don't play the game or have no idea what they're talking about and it eventually leads to CT members not wanting to speak up in the first place but they can continue making harmful changes that players don't like

lost zealot
#

i could name like 3 ct's max, but here is linny's

kind plume
# mystic gull Oh ok, in that case sorry for making this post. I won't talk anymore

Don't stop talking! We like your feedback on issues and we are trying to get more directed feedback for specific changes. Especially when we make huge updates like the one in beta. You guys have just got to understand that this all takes a lot of time for people to do and reading mostly negative feedback is not always very healthy

soft veldt
lost zealot
soft veldt
mystic gull
#

Content Team members and how to fix their reputation. Terminated said no, kinda sad

barren gull
hollow nexus
brisk wren
copper grail
soft veldt
# kind plume I can respond directly to this thread right now and say that we are not going to...

I understand that running a company of this scale comes with a lot of red tape and logistical issues. I'm not advocating for completely democratic game design, but I think player feedback is important.

There are certainly more steps that could be taken to achieve more open communication such as polls, dev updates, or community managers, etc. I think its getting better but OP really summed it up in their initial post:

This is because we only ever can infuence a change after it has been made, not before. This leaves a sour taste of dissapointment in most mouths.

ocean tinsel
#

linny simply the goat

lost zealot
#

1 to 1 i think

wicked umbra
lost zealot
#

last online 3 weeks ago is prolly not goated

soft veldt
lost zealot
wicked umbra
soft veldt
#

🤯

violet plover
#

he just announced he'd be "quitting" item team

lost zealot
kind plume
# brisk wren term i think you missed a good main point of this thread that is despite your (a...

I don't think it's healthy to use the logic that:

CT x has an opinion I disagree with so therefore they will infect the game with bad changes

A team is only good if it is comprised of people that have varying skills and opinions. The attack that they don't play the game is such a general one that doesn't ever represent the truth that even the most qualified person will still have a bad take sometimes in relation to their area of expertise. This is even more the case for someone commenting on something out of that expertise.

Just like you guys will have a ton of both good and terrible ideas, the CT aren't immune to that just because they have a blue name, but they are entitled to have that opinion

wicked umbra
copper grail
mystic gull
soft veldt
#

I think the main issue I have with the whole "CT doesnt play the game" argument is that they're changing things they might not have enough experience for. Like if CT is touching shade I think its completely reasonable to want them to have a large amount of hours playing shade before they are permitted to make any significant changes

median plover
#

additionally, as you can find on the forums, GMs and QAs don't make the item or ability changes that many people get angry at

copper grail
#

tcc grapple skip 😂

mystic gull
#

I don't require a very complicated way of feedback and all that shit I said about status system could go to the bin. Literally the only thing that interests me is SOME sort of feedback on changes before they get made

soft veldt
lost zealot
copper grail
#

yes but qa thinks its exploit so no no!

tawny orbit
copper grail
#

let me find the messages

median plover
barren gull
mystic gull
#

I said to not pull specific examples myself, time to sin.
I think we could've had a much healthier fallen change if CT's listed their concerns to the community and the community told them why a small change like this can completely kill all fun in fallen

copper grail
kind plume
# soft veldt I understand that running a company of this scale comes with a lot of red tape a...

I summed up why we cant get a lot of meaningful impact from you guys before a change is made already. The examples we already have of big transparency have frankly been a mess and not something we would like to repeat to be honest. Trickster, sharpshooter and ritualist are all things that we talked about basic concepts we were thinking about and ended up morphing months later into concrete plans that players were upset to learn may have changed or people dooming about changes before even checking them out because they were misinformed

mystic gull
#

I'm not at all for the argument of CT's don't play the game but they sometimes don't main the things others do. And one guy working on warrior is not as good with knowledge as an absolute fallen sweat that knows every little niche mechanic or stat

lost zealot
soft veldt
soft veldt
mystic gull
tawny orbit
#

you'd speak from the perspective of someone who has put in that time

barren gull
tawny orbit
#

but at this point you're expecting people to have hundreds to thousands of hours into a class' archetype while also balancing it, and sure, someone with that experience may be able to more precisely pin down issues in balancing

#

but the people touching the balance changes arent going to be maining every single thing they change

copper grail
#

actually dont need one but w/e

median plover
# mystic gull I said to not pull specific examples myself, time to sin. I think we could've ha...

well theres also the issue of people not being able to test or fully understand changes being made.
for example that fallen one that is incoming, I initially was very scared, but it was at least partially because I didn't understand how one of the new abilities will work. once the specifics of how it works were explained to me (and I did some testing) I now find the fallen change pretty much fine. its less QoL but fallen was so above everything else in that regard already that I don't have an issue with it

lost zealot
#

I dont think that ct's need to ask the general public on every single change, as I dont trust the public to make the right choice, but on more consequential issues, could a small group of people be asked?

tawny orbit
#

it's like expecting the people who reworked trickster to have mained and gained expertise in old trickster before reworking it

kind plume
#

Yeah I haven't even said it yet because I know I will get gooned on but your priorities as a single player are not always the same as someone making a game for thousands of unique and different players. Your experience is valuable which is why feedback is always open but our experience in making games for the masses can't be written off

mystic gull
hollow nexus
lost zealot
#

unc change that wording

soft veldt
hollow nexus
kind plume
soft veldt
brisk wren
# kind plume I don't think it's healthy to use the logic that: > CT x has an opinion I disag...

im going to avoid names here, im not gonna quote exactly what was said (because i also dont quite remember), but tell me if you think that in any scenario, these statements (or what they blatantly imply) are acceptable

  1. "yeah the changes of 6 to 3 class slots are bad but new players have the option of deleting their character, spending their LE on an in game rank, or just buy a rank from the store"

  2. "we could have gone much worse with the update in terms of EULA actually"

  3. "wynn is f2p, most servers that are have a lot of paywall but actually we are being generous with it compared to other servers, so if you want to unlock more than 3 slots, it's only 15 dollars to buy a rank"

i can go on and on but these ones personally pissed me a bit because it's a huge middle finger and showing no shame in screwing new players up or making disgusting comparisons to spotlight why "wynn is better than other servers" makes me question future choices of these people

i'm not saying wynn didn't need extra monetization, and there are certainly good parts of it in this update, but you can clearly see now that the community has voiced their opinion, this was a NASTY change that NOBODY liked and you can CLEARLY see that BEFORE even discussing any design or development whatsoever

lost zealot
soft veldt
#

although im sure it would be a different experience than im expecting

tawny orbit
median plover
# copper grail <@575420157757882374> response?

the opinion of the guy who created it is not the end-all for what is and isn't an exploit. its pretty clear that the room is supposed to take away your parkour-skipping abilities, so to avoid that with an exploit is not allowed, regardless of how funny sock found it

soft veldt
#

(that was one of the stipulations)

copper grail
lost zealot
#

bros got 1 year of community service before the unban..

weak oak
soft veldt
copper grail
tawny orbit
#

it's obviously not a guarantee but people will be biased behind the things they put a lot of time mastering so that their time isnt wasted

weak oak
wicked umbra
#

qa team hard at work

#

(this is a joke for legal reasons 😊)

barren gull
lost zealot
#

lowkey can you blame them, you gotta bugtest some bullshit like raids

barren gull
hollow nexus
hollow nexus
#

there's a community manager??

brisk wren
#

they've been making all the posts in the changelog

wicked umbra
#

barely

lost zealot
#

uh tealy?

brisk wren
#

oh maybe not a community manager i thought u were talking about a CT manager

violet plover
#

@hexed saffron

soft veldt
#

there is a CT Manager

hollow nexus
copper grail
brisk wren
#

dexter might be the community manager

wicked umbra
#

Tonight's the night. ahh manager

median plover
#

the CT manager and a community manager are not the same thing lol

brisk wren
hollow nexus
lost zealot
#

ct manager stipulation is that you cant log in anymore

green canopy
#

managing the content team and managing you guys are very different jobs

median plover
#

one makes sure the CT are doing content stuff and whatnot, the other would manage their public image

green canopy
soft veldt
hollow nexus
#

if you make it in twin, cook up crazy changes

soft veldt
#

yall remember that post saying we should give players access to testing servers

lost zealot
#

no

soft veldt
median plover
lost zealot
green canopy
median plover
hexed saffron
#

lex does a bunch of stuff, she is also a CT Manager

lost zealot
#

idk maybe lexnt is putting in 40 hour workweeks on the server

hexed saffron
#

notable she manages and does a fuck ton of work on all the festivals

copper grail
#

op discovered the open forum format

wicked umbra
lost zealot
soft veldt
#

(he has grown and changed a lot as a person)

delicate temple
wicked umbra
#

had to confirm it was not ragebait before engaging 😊

ripe robin
mystic gull
#

Sorry I provoked way too much shitty responses

lost zealot
#

personally i dont think it should be a requirment to be active to be ct, but atleast like semi-reguarly

mystic gull
#

I legit thought you were spewing nonsense just for nonsense

wicked umbra
#

yeah i said "can you say it is not ragebait" how much can you read from that ??

mystic gull
#

Like asking: are u ragebaiting, is not hard

lost zealot
copper grail
#

I think we should all simmer down here. The past is in the past. Unnerf entropy

wicked umbra
mystic gull
#

There is a entropy post, go there gawd

copper grail
lost zealot
#

i dont think this thread is going anywhere....

median plover
copper grail
delicate temple
#

It's a disconnect between CT and Mod team for no good reason

median plover
wicked umbra
#

so... why was this thread even made it feels like a handshaking thread honestly

mystic gull
ripe robin
#

Ok so to be on topic i do like the idea of changes being informed before they're added, which is what the hero beta is for. but an expansion on that would be coolio

wicked umbra
#

like this thread isnt even talking about the reputation of cts. it just seems like nosey people wanting to know about changes before they're public lol

mystic gull
lost zealot
#

imagine like a few active players get asked on big decisions if they sound chill

delicate temple
#

I remember hero betas used to have a lot more hotfixes this one feels a little dry

lost zealot
#

then BOOM if it isnt chill the community can dog those players!

median plover
#

yeah that was one of my biggest gripes with the faster updates we used to have, there were a lot of changes that seemed to need a beta because of how long they took to get used to to really know if they were bad or not

wicked umbra
mystic gull
brisk wren
#

erm

I just want my favourite classes to become unusable

mystic gull
#

TO NOT BECOME

wicked umbra
#

which is precisely my point. just make a feedback thread on the beta and stop being nosy?

median plover
mystic gull
lost zealot
#

editing means showing you lost

ripe robin
median plover
copper grail
ripe robin
#

or even worse: "does ct even playtest their changes 🤪 "

wicked umbra
soft veldt
median plover
wicked umbra
#

make threads asking for changes to be reverted: ❌
make threads complaining about cts not listening (dont ask): ✅

mystic gull
wicked umbra
soft veldt
#

if players are allowed to talk, its slop

delicate temple
mystic gull
delicate temple
#

Like unoptimal builds and such

ripe robin
wicked umbra
copper grail
#

I dont think the word "slop" in itself provides context

mystic gull
wicked umbra
#

Cite your terminology please. A dictionary perhaps?

mystic gull
copper grail
#

In regards to what.

mystic gull
#

Slop - that's the meaning of the word

copper grail
#

I am not following here

ripe robin
wicked umbra
soft veldt
#

slop mean low effort and same-y, thats literally it

soft veldt
#

tealy stop wizardposting

hexed saffron
#

ok im done sorry

copper grail
ripe robin
violet plover
copper grail
#

KILL ALL SUPPORT MAINS

hexed saffron
mystic gull
#

Like this is shit doesn't literally mean this is poop it means it's bad

violet plover
#

but it quite LITERALLY means POOP bro

ripe robin
mystic gull
#

Same with slop, stop trying to complicate things just to annoy me @wicked umbra

wicked umbra
hollow nexus
ripe robin
#

guys i think drawwy wants yall to stop talking about slop and start talking about their post

mystic gull
#

I'm gonna go fucking eat soap I swear

hexed saffron
wicked umbra
ripe robin
hollow nexus
violet plover
ripe robin
wicked umbra
ripe robin
#

also not an insult and WHERE DID YOU GET AD HOMINEM FROM 😭

lost zealot
wicked umbra
#

By your own admission you implied it was indeed an insult.

copper grail
ripe robin
ripe robin
wicked umbra
#

As asked of you, explain your thought process behind the insults.

mystic gull
copper grail
#

Huh?

lost zealot
#

@wicked umbra youre getting 2v1'd

copper grail
#

Quite insulting do you think?

mystic gull
#

Fucking hurt

wicked umbra
copper grail
#

group ragebaiters?

ripe robin
ripe robin
#

eggyweggy i beg of you your paragraph has better be about the thread's topic and has nothing to do with the circles ye and telos are trying to put me in 🙏

mystic gull
copper grail
#

We have been trying to be on topic???

copper grail
#

Wheres this hostility coming from I dont understand

wicked umbra
ripe robin
copper grail
#

More ad hominem I think

mystic gull
sleek dagger
#

old school runescape has a poll system for community based feedback n it's pretty good, this server could do with a poll thread for ct only, that'd be good but it doesn't fix the monetization updates motivation

if ct made a post like 'would you be ok with more paid features' the answer would always be 'no, focus on fruma'. that stuff just happens because the devs see they aren't making enough money to make do, panic, and the game gets worse cuz of it, and the only way we can push back is to show them that it makes us want to spend less money. literally, if they told us that 'we aren't making enough money to fund fruma' there would be hella loot bomb parties from ppl, hell, I'd throw $100 to support my second favorite mmo

copper grail
#

Lol you should see jagex now

mystic gull
heavy crystal
mystic gull
#

CT's didn't have a say, didn't know about most of the changes

ripe robin
#

yea^ i heard that somewhere^

lost zealot
#

@mystic gullatleast ping @wicked umbra in your posts

mystic gull
#

Look at what I describe as major in my post

#

It's mostly class raid gameplay things

mystic gull
copper grail
#

or sensible reason rather

sleek dagger
# mystic gull Paid updates were red names deal

a poll system would do a lot for general game balance, imagine a
"which mythic is in dire need is a rework?: (list of mythic items ct has their eyes on)

n then a discussion thread underneath for more in depth feedback n ramblings

it would probably soften the blow of some of the more continuous balance decisions

i can also see this backfiring where more popular archetypes and general game content gets more attention n that's probably something ct would need to account for

mystic gull
#

Yeah I'd love something like this

#

But terminated said they won't do it

green canopy
#

salted decides that

#

since i think only he can make new channels and other stuff

hollow nexus
green canopy
#

salted does lurk a lot

hollow nexus
#

Hey salted if you’re reading this check out my post that I made yesterday frfr saltroll

sleek dagger
#

a source of streamlined targeted feedback needs to exist from ct rn cuz all we have is the muddy player dictated feedback with duplicate posts, rage bait, n honestly extremely distracted discussions. the best posts are the official x posts and the extremely popular controversy posts (but not the majority of the discussion underneath lmao)

green canopy
#

but with the amount of shitters i doubt he will finish reading it before scrolling in #vip_room

hollow nexus
#

I think this post and the one that I made are pretty similar except that one didn’t get sent off topic so much

#

Like base idea, I think that in all honesty, how feedback posts are and how they get reacted to are all based on presentation, not only the idea itself

sleek dagger
#

no idea how ct wades through so much useless discussion tbh

participating in the 'This update is pay to win slop' thread was absurd, it got 10k comments in less than 24hrs iirc?

languid geode
sleek dagger
#

i have to grapple with the idea that the paid devs communicate with the playerbase way less than i initially thought, it's good that they communicate -at all- since the volunteers are the ones doing a lot of data n opinion gathering

#

n i imagine that data goes -somewhere-

languid geode
#

but thats mostly about enjoying the game and music and their wackly immolation builds haha...

jaunty night
#

Not gonna get in that last tangent again here too are we

woeful horizon
#

funny how this kind of suggestions and feedback get so much attention

#

meanwhile actual feedback is so ignored

languid geode
#

theres actually some changes that got added due to community feedback

wicked umbra
#

hate to give you the news now bub

#

you're fired

mystic gull
green canopy
#

key word "some".

#

Not all changes will be implemented, and some ct/devs want to do their work their own way, which could include community feedback but doesnt have to.

languid geode
mystic gull
#

What huh, Celeste I never said ur not saying truth

#

I just made a funny remark about me and punscake

#

Ssurge changes, if ur talking about current that's fire, if ur talking about old I'd really love to meet that guy

glass jetty
#

sometimes they dont use ur suggestions unfortunately but sometimes they do

languid geode
#

Tho there does seem to be smth limiting them back as well...

carmine heath
#

they know what's gonna happen to this game's future, we don't. They make changes based on what will change in the future, we suggest changes based on the present

fallow edge
true moth
#

this is actually genius wait

#

@earnest rapids which ct would have the highest mmr

earnest rapids
true moth
#

mmr =/= good, who farms the most

earnest rapids
#

Selvut

fallow edge
#

From aura farming to rep farming we turning wynn into reddit

fallow edge
true moth
#

constructive feedback and the content team is now a competetive esport

fallow edge
#

Ranked ct

lost zealot
#

dog saying you dislike every unpopular change and then asking for mmr if you agree

soft veldt
#

CT tier list when

stuck socket
#

gotta give out commissions to ct so they can increase their drawwy reputation

languid geode
hollow nexus
#

think that was sarcasm

languid geode
#

-# mb...

ashen leaf
unreal flare
#

Good idea, similar to how osrs got on track by focusing on their player suggestions and ideas.

Add a board ingame, where suggestions/ideas are posted on.

Then players can vote for or against it. (They can not write, only read and press yes/no button)

If a vote hits like 75%+ yes out of all votes on it, the ct can decide to implement it or not.

Not everyone can vote (to prevent abuse). It is restricted to gametime (100hrs+?) + maybe atleast vip.

Suggestions/ideas on the board will only be posted by ct but will also post viable ideas out of feedback channels.

It is not a must to implement/ not implement posted and community accepted ideas. But ct can get an early and easy feedback if the community likes them or not.

For example the current beta would have never made it through a poll. Ct knew that beforehand and would have worked on it as usual. But it still can be used for many parts of it like general questions or ideas during early development stage.

That system would be very very similar to the one in osrs. Its often praised by players and one of the big reasons osrs is still one of the greatest and most successful mmo's today.

thin grove
azure owl
weary wadi
kind plume
# brisk wren im going to avoid names here, im not gonna quote exactly what was said (because ...

Right, I went to sleep.

I think salted explained it really well in his update post after beta started. It does suck to remove something that you once had (despite the fact that current players keep the old perk) BUT I think it's entirely reasonable to donate some money to a free game made by mostly volunteers after 3 entire playthroughs that could easily last hundreds of hours. Wynncraft is doing something (in Minecraft) that is almost totally unique and while many games have an up front sticker price to play them at all, even being able to play the entire game 3 times over without having to delete anything or donate a cent is very reasonable. (completely ignoring silverbull ingame with the advertised offers that you can see as well as general regular sales that we do on the store making these premium perks fully accessible to players who are deeply invested in wynncraft)

Being able to have more characters as shown by the stats salted shares is typically something that the upper percentiles of players do, thus it makes sense that those would be the people more invested into wynncraft and probably more inclined to donate to the server if they wanted that perk.

The argument for new players "trying out all the classes" can definitely be raised and although the raw stats contradict this, I do agree that even if you're only 10-20 levels into the game it would feel back to delete your progress in order to play a new class. I don't personally see this holding up when you would have to do this 3 times over and still be unsatisfied with your decision to have to delete anything (Not to mention that anyone unsatisfied and having played 10-20 levels would need to start from scratch anyway even if they had a new character slot. They would also be unlikely to play very much on the second and third slot because after a first bad experience on a class they would most likely just use the other slots for testing post tutorial thus not really having any important progress to delete if they really had to). I think the backlash primarily came from a place of anything being removed is seen as bad (which is fair), this is just my personal opinion and obviously we updated the char slots in response to the feedback given after beta dropped.

In terms of those exact comments, I will once again say that CT are wynncraft players, If the community is desperate for more transparency then you have got to stop taking every single word out of anyone with a blue or red name's mouth as solid facts because it hinders being able to be transparent at every turn

native jay
#

see: me

#

the words "may" or "I'd like to" seem to have always autocorrected to "This Is Going To Happen Fuckers And You Are Going To Like It" for so many years when people read my messages

floral wasp
# mystic gull # *wow no way time to stop yapping and say my actual suggestion* ## CT's ideas ...

wynncraft is not a democracy. obviously while we always listen to feedback, polling the community for every change would be an arduous and ultimately non-productive task. Let's consider the situation where there is a mythic which far outclasses any other item on the market. If it was put to community vote whether to nerf it, even if it might be negative for the game overall, all the owners of that item would vote against the proposal, resulting in gradual Wynn powercreep. A further issue is that in order to keep people interested in the game, Wynn needs to do bigger updates to existing systems in one sweeping blow - take lootrun Trials, for instance. if we were to put it to a vote whether to remove a lot of the missions which gave sacs and rrs we would be downvoted to high hell, and we wouldn't be able to give a reason why we were doing this without spoiling the existence of the trial system.

there are some points I agree with, like increased moderation, but a voting board is materially unreasonable for any number of reasons.

mystic gull
#

Once again major things that the CT themselves decide if are needed to be discussed with the community

#

Cuz like rn idk linnny can’t just say: yo guys im gonna make this ingredient like this - that would just constitute to them getting fired

fallow edge
mystic gull
#

Just say future changes? No, definitely not

stuck socket
mystic gull
#

I don’t feel like that either

stuck socket
languid island
#

OP when people on the team act like this how do you expect people to like them?

ashen leaf
mystic gull
languid island
#

also OP what good your suggestion do when Salted can just come in and say "we're introducing insant 104 level up and Annie reroll tokens in the next update"

mystic gull
#

Never said that the channel would have absolute power over decisions

#

But usually if people hear that their project/idea is flawed from a lot of people with coherent arguments and reasons for them - if Theyre not an utter narcissist their opinion might change about their creation

stuck socket
#

i think ct try to do whats good for the game, theyre not always right but when theyre wrong htey usually notice pretty soon after the change releases and revert it anyway

languid island
stuck socket
#

having to post every change that might be significant to the thing is kinda just time loss

mystic gull
#

If the CT decides he wants further feedback

#

Not - might be significant

stuck socket
#

i meant "might be significant" as in theres a chance its a bad change and it shuold be put in the thing

#

i just dont see how making a poll system would be good enough to justify the drawbacks

mystic gull
#

I mean once again, terminated said no, why are we still discussing the usefulness of a hypothethical channel if its been denied to ever have the possibility or being created

stuck socket
#

🤷

kind plume
#

Hey, I said no to running every decision (even big ones) by you

#

its just infeasible. Its not that im denying it myself or something

mystic gull
stuck socket
mystic gull
#

Like there is not a single post where if u complain about some change someone will just say, suck it up boy and blame CT’s because Theyre at fault (even if its not true)

stuck socket
#

i think ct doesnt need to discuss planned changes with the community

#

making the game is cts and devs jobs not the community

kind plume
#

We have been providing more direct outreach in the frequent official feedback threads.

Polls could potentially be useful but I think it would only make sense if it was properly integrated into the game (like optional surveys) where we can accurately track WIDE community opinion that is unbiased based on peer pressure, people being nasty on discord etc.

The counter point to this is that we obviously already collect a bunch of objective data and gathering more and using it directly in our work more frequently is an equally good step forward that is less susceptible to "mob opinion"

mystic gull
languid island
stuck socket
languid island
mystic gull
#

I don’t give a Flying fuck about Lootrun tokens, i care about fallen or Bmonk

#

So no u can’t say that

#

This community is way to stupid, stubborn, naive etc. To give any good feedback about monetization

languid island
languid island
stuck socket
#

its a lot harder to ignore player opinions if the playerbase has already said something, if they were to push the change anyway itd be very obviously a questionable decision and they cant just get out iwth like a "oh i didnt know" cuz they did know

mystic gull
mystic gull
languid island
# mystic gull Oh? Im actually curious, Please elaborate

i'm not sure it's still in the game because i think it's boltslinger ability but it was something to do with arrow storm knockback that allowed you to fly under specific conditions. It made using arrow storm really annyoing and it benefitted a very niche play style. but Salted didn't want to remove it because he thought it was a fun mechnic and wanted to people to use it despite people not wanting to.

earnest rapids
# languid island i'm not sure it's still in the game because i think it's boltslinger ability but...

It still is elusive is the closest thing to having no recoil but the condition to have it is literally to not get hit. Without aspect the cd for elusive to reproc is 4 seconds and with how 2.1 has changed general content into much more of a bullet hell sometimes it feels almost impossible to not get hit especially with the low aoe bolt has compared to different classes. And like bolt has good movement but movement isn't gonna save u from small hit box enemies that swarm you

languid island
#

also i gotta say the vocal minority of the dev team have REAL ego problem and I think it's the main problem why they clash so often with the community
I'm talking about things like "I know better then you do because I know what I'm doing and you don't"

kind plume
#

This is kinda a case in point of our different priorities as game devs versus players. There are a bunch of mechanics in the game that are maybe not liked by the community because they're viewed as "useless" or "bloat" or "unfun" but they serve a very specific purpose (like arrow bomb self damage).

We aren't monsters, we don't create things for no reason.

mystic gull
kind plume
languid island
stuck socket
earnest rapids
languid island
#

or very minimal amount of players.
If extra class slots were removed because only 6% used above 3 then why not remove other things based on similiar statistics?

mystic gull
#

Please don’t start again discussing problems with items or classes here again 😭

#

Eh what do i care

earnest rapids
kind plume
#

We have a lot of tools as game devs to encourage you towards certain decisions or discourage you from other ones when playing our game. Downsides are a real and important part of gameplay. Negative effects have positive outcomes, its not a concept that is very intuitive I understand that but it is a real one

fallow edge
mystic gull
#

Back to drawing muscle mommies

stuck socket
languid island
kind plume
#

its a bit scrolled up here

earnest rapids
kind plume
languid island
kind plume
#

its pretty globally accepted in games that shooting a ton of projectiles has recoil and explosions sometimes damage yourself

languid island
earnest rapids
#

Make meteors do self damage

stuck socket
fallow edge
mystic gull
glossy bane
# kind plume We *have* been providing more direct outreach in the frequent official feedback ...

Look at World of Tanks (and Wargaming's other games). They've killed the passion of their games' communities by greed. They didn't change game mechanics, but they used dark patterns and implemented countless p2w features just to feed their 4000 employees and their executives paychecks. They have driven the quality of their games to the ground, so now they are left with only players who fall for their greed/bad decisions. The community outrage there is bigger than here, but they can ignore it, because the one who with power to call the final decisions is the owner of the company/whoever is in power of making decisions. And they suppress their own community creators (youtubers etc.) by dictatoric rules for their community creator program, so they cannot say anything that would make their paying customers see the reality, so those paying players keep living in an illusion and keep being manipulated by p2w and dark patterns.

Why does this matter for wynncraft? Wynncraft can switch target audience to more p2w audience. It will lower game quality massively, but there is always an audience/customer base for everything. It is up to the owner(s) decision(s) what type of game they want to create.

Ultimately, it doesn't really matter whether we get even better communication between CT and players. CT is already doing a decent job, their lootrun update would be SO COOL (as well as most of the other updates) without the p2w stuff. Creating easier communication between CT and players would be cool, it would make the job of CTs so much easier and less tiring.

However, what really matters is communication between CT + players AND the owner of the company. And what ultimately matters is what type of a game the owner wants to create, and what prices can the owner afford to pay to achieve those goals.

Want polls? Ask Salted to create polls before important decisions. Want to make CT and player communication better? Let's create summaries of (good) feedback posts to save CT's time.

fallow edge
#

Grok resume this please

earnest rapids
#

Pulled from api

mystic gull
earnest rapids
#

Mainly looking at the right list as that is the new numbers

stuck socket
languid island
languid island
earnest rapids
mystic gull
earnest rapids
languid island
glossy bane
languid island
#

reject mana
embrace hmelee/tstack

earnest rapids
earnest rapids
native jay
languid island
glossy bane
mystic gull
languid island
earnest rapids
#

🦀

#

Decaying heart, elephelk trunk, negative reflasia, dmg ing, dmg/sustain ing, dmg ing

languid island
native jay
# earnest rapids Make meteors do self damage

genuine question, are you aware of the difference between thematics and mechanics? thematically it would make sense for a giant meteor to deal damage to yourself if you got hit on the head with it. mechanically it would be a mess

copper grail
#

selvut that was obviously satire

languid island
languid island
earnest rapids
native jay
mystic gull
glossy bane
#

And I want to emphasize again that I think Salted, the other devs, CTs, MODs etc. are cool people (at least most of them, because I don't know some of them at all so idk). Whatever they do with their respective role's decisions regarding wynncraft, I refuse to hate on the human beings. They are cool people.

mystic gull
#

Or sarcasm, it's hard to tell

languid island
copper grail
#

except that bomb arrow self damage negatively impacts the class though

#

but thats besides the point anyway

languid island
#

what is bomb arrow self damage actually for. how does it balance it?

copper grail
#

also rocket jumping niche yada yada

native jay
mystic gull
kind plume
# glossy bane Look at World of Tanks (and Wargaming's other games). They've killed the passion...

I've seen you say this before and I wanna push back on it pretty directly: Wynncraft is not "switching target audience to more p2w audience". Introducing new paid features for the first time in literal years is not even close to the level that you're describing and its being widely overstated the reasons for it.

I've already summarised my opinion why I believe that a lot of monetisation decisions make sense so I wont repeat that but I think it is extremely unfair to try to use the corporate greed argument in light of the fact that community backlash led to salted posting information that I dont think he should have ever had to.

The updates to the store are predominantly to provide more relevant benefits for people who are able to support us as well as introducing already accepted forms of monetisation to way more relevant activities such as lootruns and raids.

Just to say again. We are NOT only catering to people spending the largest amount of money and we never have. Wynncraft is a business that needs to make money not only to keep going in the pretty niche space that it exists in but ALSO to grow bigger and faster. Everyone that is looking at the store changes and being annoyed should have a think about the fact that the more it is watered down, the less investment from these changes gets to be put directly into the next completely free expansion and update for the game

stuck socket
languid island
native jay
copper grail
native jay
#

one of the purposes anyway

copper grail
#

and thats not even that much of an issue icl

mystic gull
stuck socket
languid island
copper grail
#

self damage also fucks over bolt Lawl

earnest rapids
kind plume
mystic gull
#

So true

native jay
earnest rapids
kind plume
#

bomb self damage also literally allows arrow storm to be usable when you first start playing

#

bomb would always be better otherwise. In literally every situation

languid island
kind plume
#

especially up close where you can spam it giga hard

earnest rapids
#

Trapper is the real ranged archetype of archer in practice

ashen leaf
languid island
#

maybe I'm crazy from using too much fallout MID and forgot the actual range of arrow bomb

green canopy
mystic gull
native jay
earnest rapids
#

Arrow bomb does have pretty good range but so does like half the other classes too lmao

earnest rapids
mystic gull
copper grail
#

anything gets a gajillion damage on groot

mystic gull
copper grail
#

thats not 2m dps lmfao

earnest rapids
#

Ok ig 2mil was just exaggerated number not actual dps

stuck socket
#

this is most average constructive feedback

languid island
#

doesn't fallout also limit it's range?
I'm a crazy person that uses both fallout and napalm

copper grail
#

also im willing to bet this is just laby anyway

mystic gull
languid island
earnest rapids
# mystic gull I mean Annie, tcc, the eye, some world event bosses, orphion

Annie u get scrolled on top of other team buffs like ec or fortitude, tcc has multiple hit boxes where exploding traps or the snowflake thing can clip even then it's not hiting 2 mil, send clip of the eye I just don't believe this, I don't touch world event so maybe but that's not single target, orphion is also not a single target boss it's the most ad spam out of the raids

languid island
native jay
#

whatever the case, part of the challenge in 2.0 was trying to ensure the base spells from previous stayed mostly the same, or at least had SOME option of staying mostly the same. that was one of the guiding principles in informing their design, so bomb arrow had to stay as a fast, long-range projectile with an AOE on impact. that in mind, differentiating spaces where you would use bomb arrow and where you would use arrow storm needed to happen. arrow storm was ineffective outside of close range, but if bomb arrow didn't have anything to prevent its use at close range, it'd be generally superior due to speed and AOE, neither of which were aspects that could be compromised on.

copper grail
mystic gull
#

Rocket jump greatest ability on earth lowkey

languid island
mystic gull
languid island
#

it's VERY slightly different

#

also why is this thread in slowmode?

mystic gull
earnest rapids
mystic gull
native jay
#

keeping bomb arrow as a fast, long-range projectile with an AOE on impact, how would you differentiate its use cases while preventing it from being a dominant option? salted decided to go with self-damage and recoil. was this the ONLY possible option? no, but it was the one chosen and imo it makes sense. something like "the bomb only arms for damage after X time" or "the bomb gains damage as it travels" would leave it susceptible to lag and ping issues, as well as making it feel bad to use to begin with due to the lack of immediate feedback for new players trying to get the hang of it, and I genuinely havent been able to think of any other possibilities

mystic gull
native jay
#

the latter could work as an upgrade later down the line potentially/conceptually, but having that be default behavior would certainly confuse people to start with

languid island
green canopy
#

imo the self damage promoted long range archer gameplay. my main problem with archer is that arrow storm itself is weak

mystic gull
languid island
glossy bane
# kind plume I've seen you say this before and I wanna push back on it pretty directly: Wynnc...

I'm not comparing wargaming and wynncraft here. I just tried to explain that there is an customer audience for everything by that example.

I just tried to explain basic concept's of what ownership means and more complex concepts about human decisions and their will, and what ultimately matters.

"switching target audience to more p2w audience" <-- this doesn't state the extent of the audience switch, although I should have said "expanding target audience"... however, by introducing game progress accelerating, and in one case (AP loaning) p2w... features and changes to every game content in multiple layers, this makes those players, who were passionate about those contents not want to play those contents (lootruns, maybe raids, combat levelling, profs etc.)

Shares were a stroke of genius, because they directly allowed players with a lot of money but little time to get most things in the game with real money, while not directly impacting any other game mechanic (lootruns for example). Most people eventually even liked shares, it was a very positive feature to add to wynncraft.

We liked lootruns because it felt like a completely f2p way to make LE. And because a f2p, good way to make LE existed, things like prof speed and xp bombs and mob totems were perfectly excusable and fine. But introducing paid features to every single game content is a very dangerous thing to do.

"ALSO to grow bigger and faster"... yes, that is the current changes' goal... my point/question was, at what price? The current price is ruining the soul of certain game features (like lootruns). You don't have to listen to me, the game will survive and even thrive if you don't listen to me. Just with slightly different audience and lower game quality.

"next completely free expansion"... its not free, nothing is... the price is ruining the quality of certain game mechanics for your loyal players.

I understand these changes. Feel free to go through with them. Just remember, that nothing is free.

mystic gull
#

Shit I'd play a build that did less then 100k dps if it was fun/cool

#

Much better then shit ton of damage

copper grail
glossy bane
#

"already accepted forms of monetisation to way more relevant activities such as lootruns and raids." <-- were there any paid features similar to lootrun and raid tokens accepted before?

earnest rapids
# native jay keeping bomb arrow as a fast, long-range projectile with an AOE on impact, how w...

I'm ngl this is only an issue on bolt, trappers whole kit is bombing once and then shit just walks in so alot of the self dmg just doesn't even matter imo, sharp kinda gets hurt abit if u bomb too close, however on bolt it knocks u up enough to the point where I hope u weren't casting arrow storm or ur flying away.

Also the argument of it must have draw back feels other classes also have the mobility or range also, mage meteor might be shorter but it essentially has the same effective range as bomb as most engagement don't happen outside of like 30 blocks. Warrior arguably has the best/2nd best mobility, I don't play assassin but ig it doesn't have insane mobility or range, and shaman has ec, puppets, and ig ritu doesn't have anything on its own but puppetbomber has good range as it is rn

#

Idk ik nothings gonna change but it just suck lmao I'll just enjoy bolt as it is now

mystic gull
earnest rapids
mystic gull
#

Irl or in game?

earnest rapids
#

Game

mystic gull
#

I do yeah

earnest rapids
#

Cuz if u take damage u lose that whole node for 2 seconds with max aspects!

mystic gull
#

-# But I player trapper and sharpshooter...

earnest rapids
#

My heart goes out to people who want to play bolt without elusive aspect and flying around for 4 seconds

earnest rapids
mystic gull
#

Also idk in the rare times I tried to play bolt a lot, not taking elusive was really not an issue

native jay
# earnest rapids I'm ngl this is only an issue on bolt, trappers whole kit is bombing once and th...

something "only" being an issue for a third of the tree is still pretty significant. rocket jump which futzes with your motion still, and if enemies are in your face as sharpshooter something's likely gone at least a little bit pear-shaped, so being punished for that is fine. Almost sounds like it's doing its job

the argument is that there needs to be a differentiation between advantage states from when to use bomb vs when to use arrow storm. the statement is that the self-damage and recoil suits that perfectly.

glossy bane
#

"I've already summarised my opinion why I believe that a lot of monetisation decisions make sense so I wont repeat that but I think it is extremely unfair to try to use the corporate greed argument in light of the fact that community backlash led to salted posting information that I dont think he should have ever had to."

Yes, its sad that Salted "had to" reveal those infos. I respect him for it though.

Yes, wynncraft needs more ways to monetize.

Yes, I accept more aggressive monetization.

My only request is to dial back 2 new monetizations @kind plume :

  • AP loaning is p2w, if yall insist on leaving it in the game, cut the feature off at lvl 30 or lvl 54, so it only gives a small exciting boost early game, but doesn't affect actual late/later-game and level scaling content
  • make lootrun and raid DAILY bonus RESET tokens non-stackable

These are the only 2 changes I'm pushing for for days on end.

mystic gull
#

I don't think I made trapper or sharp feedbacks did I?

glossy bane
native jay
#

if there are other methods of differentiating bomb arrow from arrow storm in terms of their advantageous ranges and powers, I'd love to hear them and even if it won't actually change such a significantly baked-in mechanic at this point the AT should probably hear about it anyway, but given the circumstances I described (spells should mostly mirror pre-2.0 counterparts, i.e.: bomb arrow must be a fast long-range projectile with an AOE on impact) it was a sensible option

mystic gull
earnest rapids
native jay
earnest rapids
#

Idk it just feels like other classes u can freely do whatever spell does dmg while archer only really gets 2 damage spells and gets punished for using those 2 in tandem

brisk wren
#

lots of text here but im seeing bolt talk so i will say self damage on bomb is much more acceptable than pretty much forced recoil on storm

earnest rapids
#

I understand one is for close one is for far but like am I supposed to only go storm storm storm?

mystic gull
copper grail
earnest rapids
#

Not to mention bolts spells are considerably longer compared to other classes and voids the first spell

native jay
#

warrior's spells are general-use enough that the disadvantage state mostly depends on your skill or lackthereof, but upper's range is limited and that must be kept in mind for your DPS. arcanist requires some accuracy and fucking up on your combo can be devastating in the heat of battle. ophanim requires a lot of upkeep and is effectively single-target alongside being quite a bit difficult to hit on smaller opponents. eldritch call locks you very well in place and prevents extra totem usage, limiting your mobility, particularly with the removal of the instant teleport, alongside being pricey bloodwise. now that I've answered yours, can you answer mine

glossy bane
earnest rapids
copper grail
#

i think sane people would simply just lootrun again rather than dropping stacks on rerolls but thats just me

#

therefore its pretty much useless and a net negative for like anyone who uses it so just remove them

glossy bane
# copper grail i think sane people would simply just lootrun again rather than dropping stacks ...

let me quote my answer from another thread:

"currently, we have to choose between 1-3 sacrifices or 1-4 rerolls.. previous, we got 2-3 sacrifices AND 4-6 rerolls, faster than currently... we also get some more pulls now, but yeah...

I understand that it wasn't meant to make p2w even worse, since yall didn't even know about tokens, but... this means that
if I want sacrifices, I can only get like 1-2 rerolls per run... want more rerolls? PAY UP (tokens)
if I take 0 sacrifices, I can take 3-4 rerolls (unless I can get gambling beast as 2. trial, but thats still not too much)... want more rerolls? PAY UP... bad luck? too bad, you had 0 sacrifices

...all just to the same amount of loot for our time spent that we got previously, for more work (4 missions + 2 trials, instead of just 4 missions)

and side note:
flying chest runs? PAY UP... chest loot bombs..."

I'd switch 1-4 rerolls to 1-7 rerolls, because if you are lucky, you will get gambling beast as 2. trial. But more trials will get introduced 100% confirmed basically, so getting gamba beast as 2. trial will not be so easy. So 1-4 rerolls is still kinda accurate.

brisk wren
# kind plume Right, I went to sleep. I think salted explained it really well in his update p...

If the community is desperate for more transparency then you have got to stop taking every single word out of anyone with a blue or red name's mouth as solid facts because it hinders being able to be transparent at every turn

i want to reiterate that i did say this could certainly be the outcome if players see a CT member say something that upset them, and i would understand why a CT would potentially back off if this was the feedback they were getting

with a lot of statements you can clearly sweep it under the rug because it's either satire, just discussion, or really just CT chatting around

what is less acceptable is saying things like "we recognize this is not well received, but just so you guys know, we could have gone much worse!"

this isn't what players want to see when they see a bunch of overwhelming disliked changes, i know we are all human and CT are players too but these are the comments that make players see certain CT (or to an overexaggerated state, but not unheard of, seeing it as "CT as a whole") in a bad light

mystic gull
# earnest rapids I understand one is for close one is for far but like am I supposed to only go s...

Ok so elusive make u not have recoil from arrow storm if u don't get hit for 2-4 seconds (aspect depending)

Before recoil change elusive was pretty much a requirement. Now it's a waste of AP. U already don't get recoil on ground. And u don't usually wanna go off ground. Anything that would make u go off ground would be an attack... But that would mean even if u had elusive u would get the recoil back.

So literally ur purpose is still the same, don't get hit. What's wrong with that. Bolt already heavily supports air and thunder and items associatied with that often are centred around agility and dexterity. So the core design is being a silly zoomies creature with shit ton of arrows and speed. The problem is the damage is fucking dogshit. But I don't see any issue with recoil

copper grail
glossy bane
#

sacs are a pity system

#

anyway that comment I more or less quoted goes a bit too far, but its undeniable that lootruns got paid features introduced in multiple layers (stackable daily reset tokens + chest loot bombs)

copper grail
brisk wren
# mystic gull Ok so elusive make u not have recoil from arrow storm if u don't get hit for 2-4...

my personal problem is with how its implemented recoil is either an advantage or disadvantage depending on what you're playing

to most casual players it's a disadvantage for obvious reasons

and for people that want the recoil it's an advantage because they also don't have to pick elusive

the better solution in my eyes is to seperate it so players that don't want recoil don't need to pick it, but if you do want it you can take it as an optional node, and you would be rewarded for investing in it

glossy bane
#

while we get less rr + sacs than before... we get more pulls, so thats fine... but this also means that rerolls that you can buy are now worth even more than they would have before

kind plume
# glossy bane I'm not comparing wargaming and wynncraft here. I just tried to explain that the...

Shares are almost certainly a monetisation feature that allows you to get more power than anything else directly and instantly. Theres no debate here. Its why its curious that this is ok while relevant paid options for content that donators also enjoy (lootruns aren't exactly restricted to f2p players) are not ok. Lootruns havent lost any of the juice that makes them good for grinding LE as a f2p player. The only thing that has changed is adding a monetisation option that is more directly linked with the content that people enjoy compared with the extremely unsatisfying experience that is purchasing shares to directly sell on the trade market.

There is nothing that forces you to engage with this in lootruns or some crazy "do you wanna pay money" banner whenever you start or end one. You don't lose anything and it doesn't "lose any soul" because of it. I simply don't see that arguments merit.

copper grail
#

also this is a very different definition of a "pity" system to me

mystic gull
mystic gull
#

I hate Telos pity system eugh

copper grail
#

soft pity now but youll still get most drops much earlier than before on average

brisk wren
mystic gull
#

Yeah I saw those, I really liked them!

#

It would also make archer movement actually being able to compare with others

glossy bane
# kind plume Shares are almost certainly a monetisation feature that allows you to get more p...

point is, we lost our passion for lootrunning, because you can directly get a LOT better results in it if you pay up... lootrun is a one-off type of content, because in profs or in combat levelling, you don't have to build up a chain of beacon colors and missions (and trials) to get results. So paid features are a lot more accepted/acceptable there. Especially since they affect an entire server worth of players, not just yourself.

Lootruns were fun because your skills are what mattered and it was a difficult content, not just "go and mine nodes". Now, your result is determined in not a small way by paid features. And this killed our passion for lootruns.

kind plume
# glossy bane "I've already summarised my opinion why I believe that a lot of monetisation dec...

Both of the things you've mentionned have been dialed back already. Was this dialing back necessary? I won't claim to know and I dont think anybody can know. The truth of it is that its very silly to judge the impact of X amount of lootrun rerolls when its not on the live server. The price of shares will take a while to settle after the huge changes we've done as well as the uptick just because of any larger update.

Your suggestion with AP loaning would simply leave a void of AP in the midgame that would feel very bad. I truly dont think this perk with have anywhere near the amount of impact as is being let on. I could be wrong but again there's absolutely no way to know right now

glossy bane
#

we are more than willing to compromise too, if only tokens were made non-stackable, thats our only wish (why are DAILY RESET tokens even stackable anyway, if the name implies that its a token to reset the daily bonus?)

mystic gull
kind plume
native jay
#

to be clear, given how arrow storm damage is effectively rate-limited I'm not against bumping it up, and I'm not trying to suggest by participating in this discussion that that shouldn't happen

brisk wren
earnest rapids
# native jay if there are other methods of differentiating bomb arrow from arrow storm in ter...

Hmm I'm ngl I've never really thought it out myself as I like how it is now and removing the downside of arrow bomb self dmg and recoil wouldn't suddenly add more dmg and instead just make it easier to play.

Arrowstorm is fine as is imo its a shotgun spell essentially and loses alot of damage the farther away u are from things, not to mention most mobs in the game uses player models or smaller(obv there's the exception like boxes or other things) but this alr inherently leads it to do less damage just because of hit boxes. Also with how ele def works currently a considerable amount of damage is lost from ele defs not matching up or alot of dmg is gained because of it, this is more of an ele def issue but regardless 3/4 raid bosses has thunder ele def but that's just cuz I play divzer.

As for bomb yes it's a fast paced long range are spell but it still takes time and can't be queued compared to the other classes. Again I think it works fine as it is and nothing really needs to change. But classes like mage can hit similar engagement ranges while having much more are from meteor and meteors can be queued up, blood sorrow has a 24 block range forwards with forgiving are in itself to visually look like it's curving, air shout literally shoots a cone out wards that's pretty big (I don't remember how big), ec has 24 block radius kill aura that usually beats out arrow bomb. Idk personally I don't see why it should have a downside when other classes has similar if not better fast moving high range abilities. Not to mention if it's a melee mob it will try to come give u a hug do unless the intended way of playing archer is to just permanently have farsighted on it sucks for arrow bomb

I just don't personally see why arrowstorm u have to play with Myopic(12 block) gambit and arrow bomb u have to play with farsighted( 3block)

kind plume
# glossy bane point is, we lost our passion for lootrunning, because you can directly get a LO...

The paid features don't give you a free pass to a 100 challenge lootrun. They don't make it easier, they don't give you extra beacon choices or better effects. They affect the one thing that you could just sell shares to buy anyway: reward drops. Surely you can agree that the tokens are at worst the same level of "bad" as shares and at best (if you're unlucky) far less "p2w" than shares right?

mystic gull
copper grail
#

i think designing a feature that makes idiots lose money is bad game design

earnest rapids
#

What's aiac I genuinely don't know

mystic gull
#

Air in a can

earnest rapids
#

Ohh gotcha

copper grail
#

bro just say that 😭

mystic gull
#

Funny fabled bow that gives you +5 jump height and freerunner major ID. Tho I think that major ID is broken, never worked for me

brisk wren
native jay
# earnest rapids Hmm I'm ngl I've never really thought it out myself as I like how it is now and ...

but the thing is none of that actually addresses the question.

the downside exists so as to differentiate bomb arrow's use cases from arrow storm's, preventing the former from overshadowing the latter via spammability. it's not a matter of "bomb arrow deserves downsides" it's a matter of "bomb arrow should not start out able to fill a kit role better than another spell" and its downside springing off of that.

mystic gull
# copper grail bro just say that 😭

Most people that play bolt or just archer in general know about aiac. It's how alka is alactra, crabs is crusade sabatoons, zelot is panic zeloc, tcc etc.

#

And it's also just easy to explain if someone asks so why should I type 4 words instead of 4 letters

brisk wren
mystic gull
#

While we're on the topic anyone wanna explain what acam is cuz I don't understand

#

Saw it when looking at a sharp stratiformis build

earnest rapids
native jay
# brisk wren what do you think about recoil

on bomb arrow I think it makes sense.
on arrow storm I don't think so, but I recognize that flying boltslinger is a fun niche that deserves to exist, so with it being airborne-only now I think it's fine and works thematically with the chaotic nature of bolt

carmine heath
#

love how there's 3 different discussions going on and none are on the thread's original topic

copper grail
#

although ice snake has its usage on gust riftwalker tho

brisk wren
copper grail
#

but ice snake doesnt self damage you and cripple an archetype lol

native jay
#

very fundamentally different roles

copper grail
#

cci does mess with a lot of things funnily enough

mystic gull
native jay
mystic gull
#

U should look at my last post where it devolved into 500 messages long discussion about homosexuality and ethics 💀

glossy bane
# kind plume Both of the things you've mentionned have been dialed back already. Was this dia...

I think I can understand you now better, or more like I got a confirmation. Quite obvious, tbh. You cannot see my points because you cannot see the certain core things in the players perspective, because you see it from a developer and weight/balance perspective. What's missing is a bit more insight towards the human side of things probably. But I can only speculate, this is just my observation, may or may not be true, I'm just a random veteran player.

I hoped that you will give other reasons for AP loaning and lootrun tokens than "it will likely not have as big of an impact as we think".. I hoped for more.. player's perspective type reasons.

I appreciate your and the wynncraft team's receptiveness towards conversations and talking it through though.

"Trials will obviously be rebalanced" yeah, they will be, but I've spent days in lootrun threads, and they won't be rebalanced in a way where they would give more rerolls. It's just their difficulty and gimmicks will be rebalanced. As it should be btw, because the new system is so much better than the old system, if we don't look at the new paid features.

"The paid features don't give you a free pass to a 100 challenge lootrun." yeah, they don't.. but once again you missed my points completely about the human side of things, I could only repeat my exact comment that you answered to

There is a difference between paid feature and paid feature based on the implementation and based on the type of content its implemented into. That's why paid features in lootruns are different than paid features like combat bombs, prof bombs, or even combat and prof totems.

"Surely you can agree that the tokens are at worst the same level of "bad" as shares and at best (if you're unlucky) far less "p2w" than shares right?" Shares are a GOOD thing. Tokens are a BAD thing. It doesn't matter that shares are more p2w than tokens, if shares are accepted and even liked, and tokens are hated, so instead, ask yourself/yourselves why that is.

native jay
#

I think arrow storm recoil is fine to have to play around.

earnest rapids
#

I mean on shade isn't the cycle just stab stab dash spin is just to add marks fast and bomb is for marks aswell just slower, dash is used as vanish and a reset in the spell cycle while stab is just carrying like 90% of the dmg. This is in context of spell only not abilities so excluding knives and marks mainly which are just extra dmg and damag amplifier

brisk wren
native jay
#

fundamentally salted does not want recoil to be optional for boltslinger

brisk wren
#

😭

#

why do we want archer players to just suffer lol

copper grail
#

yes we know salted wants to overload archer tree with useless hype moments and aura shit but why does ct want to follow that

native jay
#

I do not think I or anyone else will convince him elsewise, and the arrow storm recoil does create a lot of unique opportunities for boltslinger that are best utilized in the air, hence the compromise of arrow storm recoil only being in air

native jay
copper grail
#

not exactly wrong though look at the stomp nodes

brisk wren
#

i acknowledge recoil can be very fun but forcing players that don't want to play around it is just unfun and pretty questionable to say the least

#

it's not the same as arrow bomb which is far more acceptable

copper grail
#

i dont think he should have this much of a say on class balance than the people actually designing

earnest rapids
#

Idk I don't think storm or bomb outperforms one or the other it has its own place I just don't see why it has to have inherent draw backs to them. Storm is the close range attack and bomb is the long range. They cycle is storm bomb bomb because recasting storm is much more punishing than recasting bomb and canceling ur arrow bomb abilities

native jay
#

term said somethin about this earlier about how opportunity cost and negatives can build up an archetype's identity in a positive way, and I think air-only arrow storm recoil fits that to a T, but grounded arrow storm recoil was genuinely disgusting to play around

earnest rapids
glossy bane
native jay
#

it's out of my hands at this juncture

earnest rapids
#

Idk end of the day it's not gonna change oh well it sucks I'll just hope bolt rework will address some of the issue while keeping the same feel of a fast close range hyperglass

native jay
#

i only tried to do what i could

earnest rapids
#

Also Guardian angels suck as it is rn and serves to add very minimal dmg

#

Ok I pce out

brisk wren
# native jay term said somethin about this earlier about how opportunity cost and negatives c...

for some things it makes sense

acolyte loses their health to empower their abilities and eventually heal back while dealing damage and supporting their group

fallen loses health to convert it to spell usage while empowering their damage

arcanist lets go of their ability to heal in order to convert their spells into even more spells, and those spells lead to more spells...

what does archer have? a recoil that hinders gameplay at certain scenarios and forces you to play around it (thankfully not as bad since it's not tied to ground-only anymore) while giving basically no upside for it

earnest rapids
#

It always circles back to mana printing abilities and their strength

green canopy
#

why is bolt being discussed here instead of the appropriate threads

brisk wren
#

it doesn't have to as seen with acolyte

glossy bane
#

By the way, someone gave another good point.

"rates - I’ve been largely fine with hidden mythic rates so far, but the ability to pay into lootrun outcomes via refreshes does make me want to know rates more since you’d be paying money into a black box system"

tokens are not just a p2w gambling system, but also you don't even know your exact outcome chances like you know with crates now, where the % chance for each tier cosmetic is displayed for each crate

glossy bane
#

I hope he will still read it though.

glossy bane
#

also, relating to the lootrun tokens...

time to lootrun on 3 accounts per day, for free daily reroll bonuses, since rerolls will worth a lot more than before

#

even better if there are multiple good camps, because then multiple times 3 lootruns per day

#

but this is more of a point to lootrun balancing and silverbull sub giving an extra reroll too

mystic gull
#

He's quite literally the boss, what more reason do u want

mystic gull
mystic gull
glossy bane
mystic gull
copper grail
copper grail
#

hence the existence of a balance team

glossy bane
copper grail
#

how is it complicated 😭😭

glossy bane
#

anyway, that archetype is getting reworked after Fruma, no?

copper grail
#

you have no recoil for people who want to play bolt normally and the recoil for the flying bolt enjoyers

mystic gull
glossy bane
#

since I don't play much arrow storm combat archetype

#

I'm just happy if it stays in the game in the format of optional movement ability

copper grail
copper grail
#

well in this case specifically

mystic gull
#

New strat for bolt rework to come faster become salteds wife and threaten for divorce

#

Oh wow I gained two more like
-# yay

weary wadi
#

i would keep recoil if bolt does triple the damage

mystic gull
#

Yuh

kind plume
# glossy bane I think I can understand you now better, or more like I got a confirmation. Quit...

The reason why my arguments have been framed in this way is because I believe that the only way to understand the real impact of the changes is to use logic.

The only way that the initial very human reaction of negativity towards new paid features (which would have always happened no matter what!) can ever be dispelled is through logically explaining the thought process and how it is being misunderstood or misrepresented in some way leading to it feeling like a much larger problem than it is.

We can't simply not make changes that the community "don't like the sound of" despite them being beneficial changes for a multitude of reasons. The actual main reason for posts against some of this stuff is precisely what i've commented on aswell: Their supposed "pay to win" nature.

If the pure feeling of someone paying money being able to take shortcuts is what you feel is humanly wrong then I think we will struggle to come to a consensus because these features have not only existed in Wynncraft for almost its entire lifetime but also are completely necessary for this game to be free for those that don't want to pay in the first place. Things in the form of bombs that majorly get used by the small group that throws them, totems that get used by an EVEN smaller amount of people and most recently silverbull shares that allows you to literally buy any item that someone else may have worked tirelessly to grind for. Do you agree that these things can very easily also feel that you can "directly get a lot better results if you pay up" and that mob grinding was fun because you had to take real time to do it making it an achievement and "now your result is determined in not a small way by paid features"

#

I fully respect that paid features being added to any content in the game that didn't have it from its initial addition will always be controversial and cause debate. I do also understand and welcome the many questions about "is this too far?" because its quite possible it could be!

#

But at the same time I can't get behind the idea that adding an option to take a shortcut in a piece of content in a very similar way to already established norms in our game is "ruining" that piece of content

weak oak
#

the issue isnt "more paid features", its "more paid features that make the free experience worse"

kind plume
#

What we're discussing has no impact on the free experience

#

The most applicable change for that argument would be class slots which I did comment about earlier in the day like

maiden echo
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Btw how much space are the character slots gonna save

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If 76% didnt even use them according to salted

kind plume
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Although its kinda not too relevant now because we changed it from 3 -> 5

weak oak
kind plume
kind plume
maiden echo
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Im just saying in general

weary wadi
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ap loaning does affect but rr tokens is cosmetic so it doesnt

kind plume
weak oak
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ap loaning being abused in raids will negatively impact the free experience (everyones experience tbh) and reroll tokens idk enough about to really comment

maiden echo
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I could very well and easily be wrong on that

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If so then what is the main reason for decreasing the amount of slots

kind plume
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Did you read my message from earlier?

maiden echo
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No

kind plume
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the original changelog could also have some detail too tbh

weary wadi
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yeah thats why people jump into conclusions

maiden echo
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Could you link me your earlier message?

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On phone atm so harder to search for it

kind plume
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Salted's forum post is also a good shout

maiden echo
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Ah so its just money making not saving oriented

glossy bane
# kind plume The reason why my arguments have been framed in this way is because I believe th...

Now we are talking (on the same wavelength).

"Things in the form of bombs that majorly get used by the small group that throws them, totems that get used by an EVEN smaller amount of people and most recently silverbull shares that allows you to literally buy any item that someone else may have worked tirelessly to grind for. Do you agree that these things can very easily also feel that you can "directly get a lot better results if you pay up" and that mob grinding was fun because you had to take real time to do it making it an achievement and "now your result is determined in not a small way by paid features"

Yes, I agree. Combat xp and prof bombs and totems can be seen and are a way to get a lot better results if you pay up. Of course, they can affect a small group of players, not just you, so that makes it better, but let's disregard that for a moment.

If I focus sharply on whats the problem here:

The amount of effort you need to get into combat levelling or proffing is very little, compared to learning everything about lootruns. And combat levelling is quick even in solo, and there are levelling parties anyway. That content is done quickly, and has an end-goal.

Professions don't really have an end-goal, and are clearly p2w, but are accepted, because you could just lootrun (or raid) for LE and buy everything, or get into a guild and get informed and use prof parties. Also, getting to lvl 100-110 profs is not that difficult, even as a f2p unranked player nowadays.

So again, the amount of effort needed for combat activities and professions is not even close to the effort needed to be able to reliably, successfuly lootrun with good results.

Yes, lootruns and profs/combat are the same type of p2w (if we disregard that profs/combat affect a small group of players). But the MAIN problem is how lootruns require so much effort, and yet that effort can be boosted to like twice as much results by just using daily reset tokens (or chest loot bombs).

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So people accept combat and prof bombs and totems because they are a low effort activity to begin with, while they don't accept massively boosting a very high effort activity (lootrunning) by just paying up.

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And our compromise was/is to make tokens non-stackable, so they still provide a small bonus, but you have to work for it more, so players who don't want to use tokens would feel like their quite big effort (because lootruns are very difficult) is worth it.

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(Some players, who would never use 3 tokens per run, maybe would even use that 1 token per run occasionally as a result, but this point is just my complete speculation, so don't take it into account.)

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In any case, if yall want to keep tokens in the game, yall should disclose the rates of each item's chance in the end-reward chest, otherwise its literal gambling without knowing the odds, which might even be illegal.

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(I say might because I'm not a lawyer.)

glossy bane
glossy bane
# glossy bane And our compromise was/is to make tokens non-stackable, so they still provide a ...

by the way, this could also be solved by just adding a few rerolls to each trial, but if we look at it as tokens and chest loot bombs don't exist, then the current new reroll + sacrifice amounts are so much better designed than the old ones... now it feels like our decisions have some weight, and its not as easy to just spam 4 rr/sac missions, but instead, you have to take only 2 trials (and maybe +1 rr +1 sac from 2 missions, IF you are willing to sacrifice 2 missions for those).

Since the new design is so good, it is not an option to just add a few rerolls to each trials. The only option is to make tokens non-stackable.

glossy bane
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thats the goal of the current update, from what I can tell (besides adding cool features)

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(and besides maybe one day Salted being able to pay the CT some extra benefits for their volutary work)

maiden echo
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Yea I thought it was just to save on server space

glossy bane
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wait what

maiden echo
glossy bane
maiden echo
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Its hard though

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Paying a decent salary to so many people isnt easy

glossy bane
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anyway that was just an additional point, not happening anytime soon as you said

maiden echo
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Fair enough

kind plume
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Anything is better than nothing really. As salted said we now have around 30 paid members of our team and we'd love to have more

glossy bane
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CT gotta be happy with crates for a while :

maiden echo
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But something purely supplementary wouldnt be the ideal goal

glossy bane
hollow nexus
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in all honesty, I don’t think anyone was expecting there to be a poll made for every single decision behind the scenes. I do agree though that there is a huge disconnect between some of the stuff that is in the game/the game is leading to vs. what the players want with it. I’m not saying that polls even have to be taken with 100% certainty, it’s just that if theres any question of how the community wants something, just poll it and get an answer. Polls don’t even have to directly lead to changes, if anything you guys can make polls and then do nothing with them but just have the knowledge of what the community prefers in the back of your mind. Ultimately, I think if polls were implemented and then balance changes were polled, that’s kinda on bad phrasing. Like imo when going about nerfs and such, you can just be open like “Fallen has been extremely strong lately, which part of the kit do you think is causing this issue?” listing several of its main ability points to give the idea to CT which abilities should be tweaked rather than removing one of its most essential tools that it needs to survive. Polls should honestly not be just balance though but generally just used to get feedback, I’ve seen far too many statements that claim something about the general playerbase when I’ve seen honestly quite the opposite reaction from the actual community. Some examples are: “Are lightbender orbs consistent to hit on smaller targets and work well?” or “Was the general playstyle of acrobat more fun on the new rework or the old one?”

Obviously there’s going to be a difference of opinion on some stuff but the community does have quite a consensus on many topics but I feel like the CT just sometimes doesn’t really hear that feedback or if it’s heard, it’s not in the numbers that would make it actually count to show a true majority opinion.

unreal flare
glossy bane
# glossy bane Now we are talking (on the same wavelength). "Things in the form of bombs that ...

I should also add. Shares might be "0 effort, but 100% loot". Which can be seen as completely contradicting my point about effort. However, in reality, it doesn't contradict, but strengthen my point.

Shares are an even lower effort "activity" than combat levelling or professions. And they don't have any type of direct effect on any type of content, which is key. (except for silverbull subscription, but that is quite easy to farm out, and it gives so many very tiny things for so cheap price, that its accepted... now the +1 daily reroll for silverbull sub in lootruns is a bit controversial, but uhh.. I guess I can compromise, even though it encourages me to lootrun on at least 2 accounts at once while accumulating glint time on my alt.)

glossy bane
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I understand the point about gamemodes, but gotta compromise

floral wasp
hollow nexus
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someone pay my goat sock

floral wasp
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agreed

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hire me as PR specialist the people love me

hollow nexus
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on a real note though please do find someone to be a community manager for Wynn for pr tho 🙏

hollow nexus
glossy bane
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...they already have a community manager?

hollow nexus
glossy bane
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so you want a PR people?

hollow nexus
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community manager should be actively searching for feedback like constantly: responding to all feedback posts, hosting polls for input, getting information about certain pieces of content and thoughts on them, etc.

glossy bane
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just no

hollow nexus
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wowzers

glossy bane
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the main job of a community manager should be to close the bridge between players, CT and owner+managers... not to look for specific feedback

floral wasp
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i do think we probably need a dedicated "feedback guy" who can trawl through all the feedback threads, because there's usually quite a lot of really good feedback mixed in with pages of flame wars and non-constructive criticism, so it'd be useful to have someone who can distill these threads down into the useful information

hollow nexus
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Isn’t that what I just said

glossy bane
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nop, responding to all feedback is not what they should do

hollow nexus
glossy bane
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their role should be observant with the focus on bridging the gap between players, ct, and owner+managers... and only respond and go into conversations if they think it has something to do with that

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the part about constantly scouting feedback threads and chats (in work time) is somewhat right though

hollow nexus
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I feel like some CT members (sorry), always take an antagonistic stance as soon as they see any feedback related to a concept and it honestly is frustrating to see and read

floral wasp
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lol ya it's ok

glossy bane
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its probably an idea that particular CT worked on for a long time, so its probably human reaction

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but indeed, CT should be ready to throw their ideas and works into the fire, if it turns out to be bad or not fit wynncraft

floral wasp
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i'd like to think i listen to feedback and am not too confrontational but i think it's only natural sometimes when people are shitting on (and not always in a constructive way!) content you've worked on for several months sometimes

glossy bane
hollow nexus
glossy bane
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a community manager might be a bridge between players and hams (the CT and whatnot manager)

glossy bane
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only big topics/important decisions/controversial decisions should get polled, polls should feel somewhat special

hollow nexus
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I know for a fact that there are people in the Wynn community that care about its future and what decisions are best for the server

glossy bane
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the missing link is CT not having the time to read through these threads, so a solution for that should be found

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there are only a few important conclusions in each thread that the CT actually needs to see