Official Fallen feedback thread for Wardrobe Wonders update

[random plume]

Yeah

[rich night]

can u show tree?

I think im rlly greedy, was having problems w my ap

[random plume]

Well that tree gives me higher DPS than live but leaves me at 2k hp gap after healing (managed to get max out of intoxicating too)

[rich night]

2khp gap with or without tomes?

[random plume]

Oh right

[rich night]

i have 19% from tomes

[random plume]

I should take out tomes since they are like 350+ each

that will really help with sustain hmm

[rich night]

I was talking heff tomes lmao

[random plume]

oh

my tomes tested were 8% mythics nad 6% lootrunning one

seems way more realistic than all perfects.

[rich night]

Aight, so u have a bit more than me, i have 8% 5% 6%

So ur gonna use hpr offhand?

[random plume]

yea

Undying is good pick or malicious maw

I need to get low hp high HPR tomes to get this more effective tho

[rich night]

its all for like 15% hp 😭

[random plume]

Welcome to fallen, the one archetype thats unplayable unless u are maxed

You could make Bak'al's grasp a 105 lvl requirement skill and it wouldnt make a difference 💀

I also had to trade 2 accessories for heff ones

[rich night]

I mean, even if u have max tomes would b 9+9+7 thats 87.5% hp regenerated if u full stack intox, just proves how useless that aspect is

[random plume]

check dms

[rich night]

even if u have all 3 max tomes and the aspect maxed its only giving u like 6.25%, you would still have to find diff ways for the rest

[random plume]

It could be way more playable if we had connection from enraged blow -> cheaper warscream -> cleansing breeze

Currently going with flying kick is just cancer to play around

[rich night]

Please look into this CT, theres literally no argument i can see made for that aspect, its currently useless if the numbers dont get changed

[random plume]

Contrast gaming is real

Thaumatic malicious maw/undying and contrast

hpr stack

[random plume]

Ngl if we gonna run thaum hpr, eroded speedster will act as a buff and not nerf lmao

[wicked acorn]

eroded with bbath makes me want to kill myself

forget to hold bbath = goodbye 8% of your health

[random plume]

Atleast thaum will reliably heal u with its hpr buff when u have no max hp
We are slowly but steadly getting to the point where playing pure fallen results in emotional damage

[prime temple]

before shit hits the fan:
no, we're not done with fallen's healing, we need more time to get the next version done

[rich night]

Aight, ty for the communication, things dont look fine at all ngl 😭

1sec global cd + 40% cap is insane

[scarlet nimbus]

mindless slaughter changes make tstack really nice to play. Good job on those. I dont effectivly lose health anymore cause I can get full value of intox. Corrupted stacks way faster too, so one can exit at 20-40% health and heal back to full. If missing a tiny bit, ls takes care of that.
for hmelee its probably similiar as before so gj

[barren sonnet]

Will the next version get finished before the update?

[prime temple]

🥳

[prime temple]

i hope so, but it needs dev time, so no idea
if it doesn't, i'll be pushing for a temporary increase on the intox cap so that live servers don't get screwed over while we figure it out

[runic nacelle]

Still dont see a reason why you would take this node other than blunt force ig

[prime temple]

bpact bonus

[runic nacelle]

Not worth over dropping with bpact and sustaining

Idrk rather take radiance 🤷 especially since you can get an extra attack speed tier over

[prime temple]

so health's the main limiter you'd say?

or actual utility?

[runic nacelle]

I mean pre patch you would bpact to low and sustain the full corrupted cycle to make use of rage but that isnt really possible with slaughter

I definitely want to test more once the whole health debacle is fixed up

Just my initial thoughts

[prime temple]

ah
yeah, one of the reasons we made slaughter is so that other powders are at least somewhat playable, but it doesn't work super well with rage, that one is better off with just massacre

[runic nacelle]

Yeah it makes sense which is why i mentioned blunt force there just isnt many tstack builds im aware of that dont use rage

Who knows maybe itll change

[prime temple]

yeah, that's the goal 🤞
we'll see how it goes

[runic nacelle]

Im dont know that much about blunt force so it might use rage but from what ive seen it stays at full in think

[random plume]

When moving the cap, also consider CD. Currently that 40% requires 16s of bursting, which is on the "long burst" spectrum already

[prime temple]

true, we do want (spell) bursts to be around ~11-12s

[scarlet nimbus]

From what I tested it’s possible though. You can heal to full if u exit at 30-40% hp, and the cycle is long enough so you have full corrupted + full intox value

But on that node, why doesnt it work with rage? I think I’m Not getting that

Just cause uptime on rage is lower?

[prime temple]

i assume so, since without slaughter it's infinite unless you get hit

[runic nacelle]

Because you cant sustain at low hp due to the hp drain

[runic nacelle]

Also if you exit at 30-40% you arent really making use of rage are you

[scarlet nimbus]

Fair, it’s still a considerable dmg boost at that threshhold. But fair

But I also Havent tested the Limits for exiting and use ls to heal up

[runic nacelle]

I mean itll probably be good for non rage but thats like very far and few between

You also gotta realize theres a certain point to where most will opt to just use potions

[rich night]

^^ Ill just pot fr

Depending on the build wont even take exhilarate bcs pot will also cover it

[rich night]

So 8% hp consumption per second?

[prime temple]

yup

[rich night]

Hm mana is that per cycle, do u have it on yr head? 40 mana?

[prime temple]

don't really have the numbers off the top of my head tbh

lemme calc

[wild river]

~40 at 9 cps ~30 at 12

[rich night]

ty, was kinda lazy to calc so i just shot 40

[prime temple]

yeah, abt 35 per second, but depends on your cps obvs

[rich night]

hmm, so like 7ws 20 upper or smthng?

bcs u get the +5 on uppers

[prime temple]

should work i think
i assume 443?

[rich night]

Yeah, i meant 443 since its most used rot rn

[prime temple]

yep, that should work then
(well. once we fix health.)

[rich night]

Whats avg build spell costs rn?

Cuz iirc mine is 11 3rd and 24 4th and i have ~12cps

[prime temple]

tbh not sure, i've seen a bunch of different ones

[rich night]

ofc i dont expect ppl to keep same builds, just out of curiosity

[prime temple]

seen both above and below that, so uh
kinda hard to tell

[rich night]

Either see the one w highest playrate or exclude top and bottom 10% ig

[prime temple]

i haven't really played in the last couple of months, so take it with a grain of salt
but id say yours is pretty close to avg cost, 35 per second is def longer bursts than current meta

[rich night]

ohhh icic, ty alot for the info

[rich night]

This is 11 + 11 + 24 + 5 mana per second at 9cps

[wild river]

8 22 for cardiac hero

[late zenith]

Original message said 6-8 no?

[prime temple]

yeah we rebalanced it with the AB change
lemme change the message acc, forgot abt it

[late zenith]

Oh do you mean hotfix 1 for this patch

It just said AB adjusted to fit more in line with intended gameplay

[prime temple]

ye

[raven eagle]

@wicked acorn after the dmg nerf being fixed, is consecrated fallen still better than running normal run of the mill fallen with a single potion?

[wicked acorn]

probably not

palafallen still stupid though

i mean depends what you mean by better

[raven eagle]

dmg:qol

[rich night]

So erm, any news

[prime temple]

live is gonna have a temporary solution to keep fallen playable, but we'll be working more on fallen's healing in the future. the ls/hpr tie-in would still be there in the future, but a lot more usable, with a different ability.

[rich night]

https://tenor.com/view/meow-cat-cat-trip-cat-fall-kitty-gif-14426836968979840999

[wary lichen]

What's going to be the new intox number? Will it rely on the new aspect to 100%

[rich night]

buh, aspect is 5%

[prime temple]

nope
it will be slower though

[wary lichen]

Anything decided yet or we wait for live to see

[prime temple]

it's still gonna be 2.5%, 0.5s cd, but the cooldown is now global for all abilities, not per ability

[rich night]

So 8s for the cap of 40% in exhil?

[prime temple]

oh right also uncapped intox

forgot to mention the most important part

[rich night]

isnt it a big buff for fallen then?

bcs of the dmg buffs...

[prime temple]

it is, but oh well
the new solution is in testing stage rn, so it shouldn't be cracked for too long

[rich night]

Can i ask why 0.5s shared instead of % nerf?

[rich night]

Seems like now i basically get punised for cycling fast

[prime temple]

1. to not hurt per kill amount
2. to not force hybrid trees

[prime temple]

hence why it's temporary

[rich night]

How would it force hybrid

[prime temple]

since it used to be per ability cd, you'd get separate ticks from stuff like air shout, flupper, etc.
so hybrid trees heal fallen much more than pure(-ish) fallen
which is pretty messed up

it is like that on live rn

[rich night]

I feel like ppl go hybrid for more dmg, no? like what do i get if i go full fallen, brink of madness, massacre n some other things i cant rlly use, no?

ig the 20% move speed

[rich night]

bash is fun but its too slow and meh for me to want to use quadruple bash

[prime temple]

yes, but we don't want to encourage it even more
pure archs can't be worse than hybrid in every respect
tbf
fallen is also the shortest pure arch
it's the only one to have 3rd red req of 10
but that is a whole separate discussion

bash is just an extremely annoying spell to design around tbh
we have ideas
but it'll be a really long time before we can implement them

[rich night]

why long time? bcs of dev time or bcs of the numbers?

[rich night]

idk i feel more forced to go hybrid bcs the rest of fallen kinda sucks beans

[prime temple]

dev time, plus we have much more broken stuff on our hands rn

[rich night]

fair fair

[prime temple]

that's fair, but that's smth we need to fix as AT

[rich night]

Idk what at is sorry, kinda new here

[prime temple]

oh, Ability Team
or Ability Tree, depending on context
IMs are Item Makers
GM - game masters
mob team is part of GM iirc?
that's the main ppl responsible for numbers balance

[late zenith]

Oh can I ask when patch notes

[prime temple]

no idea tbh

[late zenith]

Can I ask what’s like the most basic design philosophy around bash upper and scream btw?

Cause rn it feels like scream is the instant damage spell, the dot spell, and the range spell

[prime temple]

it went through so many hands that it's pretty hard to tell at this point
scream has the niches you mentioned, upper is the heavy hitter, but bash is currently in a pretty bad limbo

[late zenith]

Just gonna note that without ssurge or pressure (so on the fallen bmonk hybrid tree) wscream has a higher instant mult (400 vs. 310) and a higher total mult (550 vs 510)

yeah you could say it’s just the specific tree but I feel like it’s just weaker than scream at being a heavy hitter every way for the fallen side (admittedly achieving that through pala/monk nodes). It only achieves higher power through specific combos (pressure, axe kick) in bmonk’s case or resource use for pala case (ssurge)

Or I did math wrong check me on that

[prime temple]

ideally we'd want to make pure fallen good enough to where it'd be more optimal, but that's ways away rn
plus we did hit air shout quite heavily, i think we need to wait some time before touching it again

[late zenith]

Yeah I’m just saying I’d like uppercut to actually be the heavy hitter hands down long term

[ivory zenith]

What if we make intox heals really slow

Like maybe 5 seconds duration or something

[prime temple]

look forward to what we have in store then :)

[ashen mist]

this post has suddenly aged well

[random plume]

100% healing on 20s burst, could have been better with 0.3s / 0.25s cd if intended usage was 11-12s bursts

Atleast it still encourages exhilarate (and that gives us some hp to work with beyond 100% so we can use spells on fallen cd)

[wary lichen]

Was this part mentioned in changelog

I only see 0.5sec not global cd for abilities

[prime temple]

that's been like that in beta

[slim crypt]

i think this explanation should be posted along with the hotfix

[prime temple]

bruh
it was in the message i submitted
lemme @ zeer

[slim crypt]

oh cool

when i looked at this i got a mild heart attack 😭

[prime temple]

lmao

[rich night]

They straight up removed Thaumic 😭

[rich night]

Was only mentioned on the post they did in the forum

[rich night]

Yeah, its 14sec with exhil, but i still think it punishes u for cycling faster 🤷‍♀️

If u have books it goes down to around 11-12sec tho

with 18% heff its alrd like 11s i think

Thats why i said this patch is a straight buff to fallen, but Leo alrd said they still gonna make changes

[random plume]

I mean, it makes sense to take exhilarate now

which was my biggest pain in previous version

where it felt unnecessary

[random plume]

I will probably stick to longer burst to keep armour breaker on max enraged for longer

feels really good to use rn

[true pond]

Fallen specifically, or Fallen/BM

[scarlet nimbus]

massacre appears to not be working correctly on beta if u take mindless slaughter. There is no corrupted gain asides from the health loss through mindless slaughter

[stiff wagon]

intoxicating blood is back to how it is on the main server?

nvm ok shouldve read

[true iris]

Aborted

[tulip olive]

this is an endless cycle of trying to force players to build health sustain and then having to wheel the changes back because nobody wants to do that

the way it is right now doesnt need changes IMO

no need to change something that works well. if people want to build mana regen on fallen to sustain health then let them

[rich night]

Lets add a 2ap troll ability at the end of the tree and force players to use it

[exotic shell]

"nobody wants that" is not a good argument here

[tulip olive]

i think the vast majority of players doesnt want that

[exotic shell]

fallen uses health as mana it makes quite a lot of sense that you should build some good sustain for that

just like most archetypes need to build some mana sustain

[tulip olive]

ok well i understand the idea but the way it was tried to be implemented was very impractical

[exotic shell]

Thats what we call a beta

[tulip olive]

what i would do is add some ability that stores health gained through health regen / life steal and then gives you that health back after you leave corrupted

[random plume]

You currently need to build spell costs sustain to get max out of intoxicating, especially if u for some reason decide to drop exhilarate which feels necessary now, unlike what it was in the past (overall I like how it is a really valuable to pick)

[exotic shell]

We have another idea that should get executed slightly better. It's actually closer to our original concept for this node

[random plume]

Are we gonna go again into touching our enemies with meele?

[rich night]

Dosent trying executing badly thoughtout ideas consume alot of precious dev time tho

[random plume]

Otherwise you cant burst for 20s straight to get 100% heal.

exhilarate now gives us either possibility of shorter bursts or extra HP to spend on cooldown

Imho fallen is in a good spot rn

[hardy orchid]

how else do you think massive changes to an archetype would be tested and gather feedback from the wider playerbase

[tulip olive]

but also imo the mana thing just works well and i dont see a real reason to change it other than that it makes health regen/lifesteal sort of obsolete

[exotic shell]

Well yeah its obviously not intentional to push out something bad thats not what i meant

but theres quite a lot that needs wider testing before we can know the exact outcomes

[random plume]

tbf, some archetypes just simply push for making certain stats obsolete, see arcanist and mana regen / max mana ..

[rich night]

Yeah, but massive changes require more thinking no? not just sending it half backed to beta

[tulip olive]

i think other archetypes could use changes way more than fallen. i dont think theres much wrong with fallen at all

[tulip olive]

exactly

[hardy orchid]

this is going to be a cyclical argument

just know that beta exists for a reason

[exotic shell]

Arcanist and fallen are the two biggest mana cheating archetypes yeah they are similar in that way

[hardy orchid]

i agree the initial change is laughably bad though

[random plume]

What we gonna get next, nerfed arcanist

[rich night]

Fair, but alot of the numbers were way off and the idea itself dosent take into account the rest of the game, only the archetype itself

[random plume]

oh wait its aspect got touched, right

[hardy orchid]

entropy is dead bro

[exotic shell]

and its ok to have that mana cheat! Because it is their main gimmick. BUT we think that health sustain should be more important than it is now for fallen

[tulip olive]

well its definitely different with fallen though since you can build no mana for full burst damage without sustaining your own hp while giving you the option to trade some of that damage for mana/health sustain

[exotic shell]

because fallen gets the luxury of getting everything build into its tree nicely packaged for anyone! It gets healing abilities and hella damage abilities

[random plume]

The problem u didnt tackle properly is lack of items that you wanted us to play around - if you want to push for certain stats on ET archetype, make them ET accessible.. LS and especially HPR were simply too far away rn

[hardy orchid]

that was gathered after testing in the beta anyways

[exotic shell]

I dont think its necessarily a lack of items. Its definitely moreso a lack of players willing to use the items that are there because they dont fit into the current meta gameplay

[random plume]

I tryed to play around gigabyte and other HPR items

[rich night]

Yeah ik, but its the problem im pointing out, seeing the game dosent have the items to support what ur trynna do is not smthng that needs a beta for, just some thinking

[random plume]

unfortunately on beta it barely made it to 100% healing, which cannot be called playable.

[hardy orchid]

id hijack this thread to plead for the entropy nerf to be scrapped before making it to main as my last resort but whatever

[wicked acorn]

i mean i put on an apoc and it was fine i guess but it didn’t really feel good/fun to play at all

[tulip olive]

well the way it is right now its super impractical to try to build health regen or lifesteal on 99% of spears

[wicked acorn]

twas quite unenjoyable especially in groot

[tulip olive]

you lose so much damage to a point where its just not worth playing

[wicked acorn]

and also tna

[rich night]

Offhand mythic/crafted to make it playable 🔥 , also dosent apo have 45def req

[wicked acorn]

apoc has 95

[random plume]

Im fine with being required to build sustain in certain type, but -Spell costs sustains were already a thing, while mana sustain is basicly against weapons like bbath.

HPR and LS were locked behind high DEF which killed its utility tbf

[wicked acorn]

outside of apoc i didn’t really see a real option to regenerate upwards of 5000 health

so i don’t really see how players are supposed to build around ls instead of meta builds

[random plume]

@wicked acorn I got a build that worked with simply running HPR Undying

But it was pain to play in raids 🔥

-Ws just hurt

[rich night]

Only thing i was seeing was paincycle with tomes so u could get the 100% from corrupted

[tulip olive]

i think this could work but i wouldnt get rid of intoxicating blood or exhilarate either because that would be too much of a qol nerf

[wicked acorn]

that’s just like… intox with extra steps

[tulip olive]

errrr

[random plume]

Doesnt solve the problem of lack of items

[wicked acorn]

the whole point of thaumic is to make those 5 seconds vulnerable iirc

[random plume]

ngl, what u gonna get, 500 healing ?

[tulip olive]

i see

[rich night]

Intox is comfort, its a garantee of always getting 30%

[tulip olive]

no thats exhilarate i think 😄

[random plume]

exhilarate gives u 30%

[wicked acorn]

while i understand why it just doesn’t make sense considering you’re already the most vulnerable class by design for like 5 seconds so why make it 5 more

[random plume]

wasnt thaum active during cd?

[rich night]

The idea of thaumic using the lowest hp of past 5sec is nice but i still think ability is underhwelming specially for bottom of the tree at 2ap

[wicked acorn]

which is why i think if they really want to make fallen less safety they should lean into sustain

[scarlet nimbus]

I think this describes it very well. I didn’t have trouble building ls (hpr is harder I guess). And yes I had to Trade dmg in. But idk that is not such a big deal if the rest fits.
And I think ct Shows clearly that they care about it, with all the going back and forth. I’m Fine with waiting and testing stuff if we get to a statisfying result

[wicked acorn]

or change it to how leaden interacts with fallen where it’s like you burn health super fast at the beginning and have longer sustain window comparatively

[random plume]

Unfortunate thing about fallen is that it either works, and then its considered too good, or it doesnt and just simply becomes unplayable - so far no middle ground.

[wicked acorn]

my problem with thaumic was not really that it was impossible to build around (very clearly wasn’t) it was just that it felt horrid to use

[rich night]

Yeah, average high risk high reward character

Either the risk is worth it or it is not worth it

[rich night]

Its on the wrong side of the tree, give it to paladins lmao

[wicked acorn]

hell no

[rich night]

Theyd make better use of it 🤷‍♀️

[wicked acorn]

firebird exists

i was literally healing 23k hp a tick

on big mac

[rich night]

yeah, my friend was getting 20k on bigmac too

[random plume]

Bigmac supremacy

firebird with thaum 🔥

[prime temple]

and that's why we changed it to smth else now
like your feedback specifically was a pretty big part of it btw

[random plume]

So, whats next?

What kind of node are you cooking for us rn ;x ?

[tulip olive]

I don't think this is a good approach. You're vulnerable when going down to like 10% hp and not when leaving. Leaving corrupted is like a breath of fresh air knowing that you lived u feel me

[exotic shell]

Yeah i've said this quite often in recent months its a really fine balance and all we can do is take some steps forwards and backwards to approach this line

[wicked acorn]

i mean idk intox is such a bs ability 😭 i get it

[exotic shell]

fundamentally though we don't want you to be able to freely build all damage items and get full healed for it without much effort

[prime temple]

not my design, so can't share
but it's based on a few popular suggestions

[tulip olive]

and also fallen by default shouldnt be forced to play health sustain as those characteristics are most bound to defensive items. Fallen by nature isn't very defensive so this drastic change of class building direction would fit it

[exotic shell]

rally's removal made sense but the corresponding buff to intox was way too far. Thaumic was a good idea but didnt work in practice (for reasons you guys showed us!)

and hopefully the next iteration will build on it

[random plume]

Connect enraged blow to cheaper warscream before u nerf intoxicating next time ❤️ 🔥 [not really a solution but atleast we get easier access to rally]\

[rich night]

Also will the new Aspect be changed? I didnt see anyone get any use of the 5% yet and dont think i will

[random plume]

exhilarate aspect is only 5% ?

[rich night]

Legendary 5% at max level

[wicked acorn]

5% is pretty big for hitting breakpoints

[rich night]

Idk, i tried to make math for alot of things and just dosent feel like it cuts it for anything

[wicked acorn]

need 43% heff vs 34%

[rich night]

hmm

[rich night]

Ig thats a way of looking at it, but i still dont see what youd fit for the 10-15heff instead of going for an item that has 15-20heff

[random plume]

please dont nerf the cd at intox, it felt horrible to play around with 1s shared

[rich night]

Feels punishing for rotating fast, thats why i was suggesting nerfing the raw %

[random plume]

or make it so we can get most out of it in "intended time"

[exotic shell]

obviously if we add healing abilities we need to rebalance existing ones

otherwise that balance we were both describing doesnt work

[random plume]

its not about limit or effectiveness

just making so that we get most of whats intended in proper time

getting like 40% healing over 20s burst (which at this point requires a lot of -costs) just feels off even if u limit it to such a low number

[rich night]

Make it so u take more dmg either when in or out of corrupted

like other classes have diff base defense *

[random plume]

all the damage received for next 5 s will be increased for by % of health restored by this ability, ?

[rich night]

I like the bloodpact changes ngl, getting rewarded for playing more to the hp side is nice

[rich night]

Sure, increase in dmg taken during corrupted if u want that part to be more risky or outside of corrupted if u want that part to not be so safe, other classes have like 70% multiplier to their hp and fallen gets the full 100%

Also id prefer if intox gets %nerf but goes back to 0.5 nonshared, having tempest doing all the stacks feels scummy

[rich night]

Make kills have the same % but hits have a lower one or smthng

[random plume]

This would really put you at risk if u play for max healing

even if u go low and get up to max hp, receiving double the damage can be fatal

especially when you are vulnerable

[true iris]

Count ur blessings that it was optional and only one

I LOVE ESCAPE NODES

[rich night]

I only play for max healing bcs its literally my mana pool 🥀

[rich night]

Double it and give em to archer

[true pond]

Don't current fallen builds already work around this "mana sustain" by building in cost reduction spells? Bloodpact would be absolute shit if every spell you cast costed 35 mana

[indigo rune]

vacancy cardiac arrest

[ashen mist]

rip thaumic 😔
lasted a total of 0 days 😭

[ashen mist]

yes

[ashen mist]

it usually needs -spell costs though to be able to heal fully :/

[ashen mist]

and lightbender, arcanist and acolyte literally need 0 mana sustain pretty much???

[torpid comet]

"most"

[exotic shell]

even the ones you listed need some

[random plume]

and fallen needs more than some -costs sustain, which is the only logical mana-related sustain on a 0 mana class.

ofc stuff on tree (especially generalist) make the sustain easier, but its AP invested at this point

[ashen mist]

yeah and fallen needs -spell costs (which I said already)

also a lot of arcanist builds can sustain off of like 0 mana regen 0 mana steal pretty much

especially if they have sorcery so they do not in fact "need some"

[tulip olive]

why would lightbender need no mana

i mean u dont need alot

but u need to sustain ur heals atleast

[random plume]

Wasnt lbender a mana-hungry archetype that worked good with mana steal no?

I can agree on aco / arcanist being 0 sustain but its hard to say the same for bender

[exotic shell]

I really hate repeating myself over and over. I said already that arcanist and fallen both have crazy good mana cheats

and this is their gimmick so its ok! But we believe that health sustain ids should play a part in fallen's kit more than they do right now

[random plume]

Then we would need to have a way of getting them outside of tomes thats not straight up gatekept behind DEF requirements on ET archetype. Im up for changes in that if possible

Looking forward to new healing node tho

[ashen mist]

lightbender casts 1 spell every 3 seconds
that's literally all it needs

[tulip olive]

sure i dont necessarily disagree that they should be compatible with fallen but i also think that higher mana regen being more sustain is a good gimmick that works well with its playstyle and class building
so i wouldnt want to see it be replaced entirely by health regen / lifesteal

[ashen mist]

then make health sustains actually useable...

[true pond]

Termi, let me try to summarize your point in a way they can understand (correct me if I'm wrong)

Most builds use a combination of Mana Regen + Cost reduction in order to sustain themselves. Meanwhile, Fallen only needs 1/2 of that in Costs reduction only, and CT position is that Fallen should have the other 1/2 sustain be better health management with items as opposed to free sustain from the Archetype itself. "Health Regen" + Costs

Am I right in this assessment?

[exotic shell]

I'd say so yeah. We believe that fallen should sacrifice some damage for health sustain

[true pond]

Mmmmm I see. I don't know if I agree with that but I haven't really played fallen too much to tell

[late zenith]

I think the issue for a lot of people is that air items generally lack health sustain ids lol without adding defense

And ls doesn’t feel good to use on warrior

[ashen mist]

me when I try to build air on fallen:

hero fallen players are such 🤡

[scarlet nimbus]

I think it’s more that ppl dont wanna change from the fluent gameplay Loop that fallen was/still is. And while I get that sentiment, I think it’s Fine to change stuff, idk

[runic nacelle]

Not true tbh the issues are more than just its gameplay loop

[rich night]

All the builds i saw thaumatic being useful and not just a downgrade to potions are non fallen builds, fallen cant heal while corrupted and ct wants fallen combo to be 11-12s meaning 50-60% of the time you wont be using thaumatic on fallen eitherway, same with ls/ hpr

[rich night]

Also mr on other classes is directly more effective than hpr on fallen considering you are regenning WHILE casting

And as said b4 such ids hpr and ls are mostly locked by def req, im not gonna drop 95def on apoc lol

[true iris]

Uhh non weathered shade

[rich night]

isnt that only while invis and dosent invis break when u attack

[wicked acorn]

it’s already gone 😭

[raven eagle]

people are still emotionally damaged... 😭

[fleet ibex]

can we make air shout 4 hits instead of 3 please

itll still be a nerf compared to before but scream feels so shit now

[mental monolith]

i dont feel like hero shouldve been nerfed, its mostly the fault of other agility equipment synergizing very well with it

like conduit of spirits being very good with it

[rich night]

I wouldave prefered if they removed the resistance from passive and nerfed the % of hp you need to be at for the passive instead of nerfing the dmg

[late zenith]

3 hits is exactly how many you would get against a dummy pre patch

Fallen is fine in terms of dmg it doesn’t randomly need more against big things

[fleet ibex]

No lol

You hit 4-5, and on raids bosses 6-10

[late zenith]

Did you actually test this

[fleet ibex]

Yes lol

[late zenith]

Cause I did and it was 3

[fleet ibex]

There is an aspect that makes it hit more times

[late zenith]

With air shout aoe.

[fleet ibex]

Yeah? And everyone used it

[late zenith]

Idk what to tell you it was 3 😎🤷

[fleet ibex]

Yea without the aspect that every single competent player used

[late zenith]

With aspect, it was 3.

[fleet ibex]

No it wasn’t lmfao

[late zenith]

okok I'll concede 3-4

https://streamable.com/bzbgli

[fleet ibex]

why were u testing it like that its hard to tell how many hits that was

u can just put on discombobulate and it will tell u exactly how many hits

[late zenith]

i was counting the dmg labels by going frame by frame in footage

[fleet ibex]

anyways this argument is pointless because an ability shouldnt be balanced around dummy dps anyway

[late zenith]

I agree but I don't think big = more dmg is a logical balancing step either

[fleet ibex]

just make it max 4 hits and air shout will be viable but still worse then bash

[rich night]

This depends where u aim

If i play on 3rd person than ye prob only 3 hits bcs i look lower

[rich night]

Yeah, this is more accurate im pretty sure, atleast the dummy part is

[late zenith]

wait why would looking higher get you more hits

[rich night]

2 things, wtf is this method testing and look at top half of the head

[rich night]

Idfk, but i stumbled upon it when comparing my etio vs conduit dmg

[rich night]

true

[late zenith]

i was just going frame by frame to count dmg label ticks cause i dont wanna change my tree

[late zenith]

yeah i got 4 once from a weird angle

[rich night]

Idk if airshout is worse than bash rn, bash feels so slow and meh, but i love the sound of it and the visuals

[late zenith]

oh i guess if you're looking straight up or down you might get even more intuitively

cause the hitbox is 2 tall but 1 wide

[rich night]

Mayb, i tested from 4 blocks away tho

[rich night]

On greg?

[rich night]

What ideas are there for intox? CT wantting to change intox just makes me see more and more fallens go generalist fallen, which is against what ct said they want archtypes to be

[rich night]

Generalist shrimply looks like higher sustain and dmg...

[rich night]

Sure, you lose out on haemo and air shout but every 3 casts its basically free and also makes axe kick free to take also makes bash useful

[true pond]

Bash Surf meta???

[rich night]

Also can we change Sorcery activating corrupted? When i grab it in raid i burst -> potion and sometimes sorcery will make me corrupted during potion, running my hp and timmings

[exotic shell]

seems like a tricky one because sorcery not casting war scream at all would be pretty bad

It may be possible though

[true iris]

Imo I don't see why everything should be so universal like I'm not gonna take hopeless 3 on a spell build cuz it's butfing melee not spell so I don't see why there can't be small gimics to certain archetypes and major id interactions. Also like yea it's annoying but in the case of fallen it's just annoying asf not unplayable. Aco is actually unplayable on sorcery lol. Idk just my opinion

[exotic shell]

We try to avoid "hidden mechanics" that make players question whether something is working as intended or not.

Another thing is that a lot of these unique interactions are subjective and some players may have different opinions on how something should work

Some stuff that we leave out can be immediately understandable to players and then that's fine though.

[dusk jay]

All I want to say is please keep sorcery recast war scream

[exotic shell]

There's definitely examples in Wynncraft of hidden mechanics that were implemented long ago and it leads to huge confusion in the long term where the current playerbase is like "what were they smoking when they did X" because the game is doing something that may make sense to someone from 5 years ago

But now it just seems like a mess

[exotic shell]

Yeah I think if we do anything it will be only if we can prevent just corrupted from being entered and not completely remove war screams from fallen

[dusk jay]

that would be great

[abstract lodge]

not just aco but shaman really, i never pick sorcery and the rest of tna buff 3 are just so bad, fading 3 is practically a debuff

most of the time i actually skip the third buff, the only net value one is sojourner 3

they should really rework tna 3rd buffs theyre terrible

[austere zenith]

Wdym lol insid3 like the best dmg buff in all raids

If ur build can’t use sorcery then don’t take it

[rich night]

#1406085917604581528 message Can confirm, please fix @exotic shell

[abstract lodge]

yeah, i said im shaman so i can't pick it, but it's too good on basically everything else and the rest are just not great

or at least too good compared to everything else because other things aren't anywhere as good

[rich night]

My dmg is alrd low enough as is no need for this bug 😔

[prime temple]

looks like bpact is now bugged in a different direction, bonus sometimes doesn't apply when it should
hopefully gets fixed next patch