#Thorns and Reflection rework.

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

weary walrus
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Fire weapons have pretty low damage output across the board as a general rule of thumb. They tank extremely well, but the tradeoff is to have abysmal, almost unusable DPS in comparison to the others.

My suggestion is to indirectly add more power to these weapons in such a way that cannot be easily stolen by other elements, while also reinforcing the gameplay loop they were meant to embody:
Make Thorns damage scale with melee, and make Reflection damage scale with spell.
Instead of having an inconsequential ID that contributes literally nothing to your build (unless you're Battlemonk and need 20 reflection for mana regen) it would be nice to have IDs that actually BENEFIT tanky archetypes.

It would be a much more impactful change rather than just buffing fire Mythics across the board.

Extra detail:
To avoid it being abused by healing classes I also suggest that the damage dealt by Thorns and Reflection scale inversely with the damage received as a % of your max health. That way you can't just take glass DPS Lament with 120% reflection for an absurd free damage boost.

frigid epoch
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Thorns meta back in the big 2025

weary walrus
frigid epoch
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Thanks

still holly
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If this goes through before poison...

oblique pewter
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you disliked your own post, so I must like it (no)

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(I don't actually have much opinion on it so idk)

craggy tundra
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I do like the idea, especially melee getting some more use. But I think this Version encourages passive gameplay just like poison. So I dont think it’s an optimal solution.
But I do wish for more implementation of it

fallen ravine
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this is peak

oblique pewter
stone axle
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Alternatively can i just have longer courage

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And arguably a few more ._.

reef ermine
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This will not end well

fallen ravine
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obviously non-fire gear will have to get much less thorns/reflection than fire weapons if you don't want this abused

weary walrus
weary walrus
fallen ravine
weary walrus
fallen ravine
weary walrus
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@fallen ravine added an extra detail I think is important at the end

fallen ravine
full oar
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So like damage reduction also acts as a damage buff for it?

weary walrus
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You can afford to build for bulk, and it will directly help your damage too. For raids with true damage it won't be as impactful, but that's fine, it doesn't need to be. You are tank first and foremost. It's not going to completely fix your lack of DPS but it will supplement it like

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I think it would be really cool if we had a proper use of the IDs that actually felt impactful and thematic too

full oar
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well the way you've descibed it feel a bit too... complex? for me to think it could be taken as it is into the game. many players already struggle to properly understand IDs and this would get really confusing really fast.
but the current system of it being based on the enemies damage certainly makes it impossible to balance.
as of now its too small to ever be useful, but if it were buffed to deal okish damage to any 1 enemy, it would be just as good against them all, acting as a hard counter to anything that uses slightly higher damage compares to its hp. (I am imagining how quickly a greater one would suicide, effectively nullifying their threat to tanks)
so basing if off of spell damage and perhaps damage that you don't take (or as you said, higher damage if the amount you take is less of your max hp) leaves a lot more room to deal some damage without it ending up impossibly broken in some scenarios

weary walrus
# full oar well the way you've descibed it feel a bit too... complex? for me to think it co...

I'm imagining an upper and lower limit, not just endlessly scaling (a la pre-patch Sparkling Hope) but I also think it would be hilarious for you to face tank a Greater one on purpose and basically tell it to commit Die. Shotgun mobs would, ironically, be hard countered by tank builds lol.

From a coding perspective, I can see how it might get complicated fast, but in practice I think it would be really fun as a small/niche mechanic.

Reflection is used on so many HPR items it just seems like a shame that it's never useful. Even if you DON'T build for bulk, I can't imagine anyone complaining about a net bonus to their DPS, even if it's small

final barn
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will that make nulli glue meta?

digital sorrel
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Just make fire items better this is just boring passive damage

weary walrus
main mist
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Slop rework

fallen ravine
mystic marlin
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like guardian paladin

fallen ravine
full oar
pallid field
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bro we gotta kill you unironically

weary walrus
fallen ravine
trail swan
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Unfortunately the best that thorns or reflection will ever get is more solid and easily understandable identities (their current ones are not obvious at all)

The reason for this is because if they ever deal meaningful damage it will be abused for afk farming very easily and it's very hard to prevent this

full oar
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yeah thats fair, can't really do much about that

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what if they stacked up over time to buff next attacks

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like the fire armour powder but more

trail swan
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i dont really like having to doom this thread like that btw. The only way I could see them becoming something more would be with some major id that makes them an active playstyle or something

trail swan
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thats more like an "absorbtion" id or something

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maybe thorns/refl could be integrated into the ability tree a little or something thats some idea but its still a long shot

full oar
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yeah, but at the same time, they are problematic and also useless atm, so maybe they should get removed/replaced eventually

fallen ravine
still holly
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Being scared of thorns used in afk farming while pandemonium shaman exists is xd

reef ermine
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deactivate after 10 seconds of no player input so you'd need a macro regardless

astral flower
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what about making them added dmg for next attack or spell? reflection would add dmg to ur next spell and thorns for ur next melee attack, that way you could balance them by separate and add value to constantly recieve dmg while dealing with it

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this would be extremly helpful for heavy melee and heavy spell, both of them having more support

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and make them uncapped, like 100% thorns would mean that your next attack deal 100% of ur hp/dps (could be one or another but hp seems more balanced)and so on.

still holly
tender coyote
weary walrus
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@trail swan what if Thorns/Reflection added a ramping damage buff to your next melee/spell? No afk damage, but a similar theme in the sense that you want to get hit on purpose to add a nice little boost to your damage as a tank?

oblique pewter
astral flower
main mist
weary walrus
main mist
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Cuz u would have to build more ehp which is alr less dmg than just not building ehp and using game mechanics to not get hit

full oar
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hello battery

main mist
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Idk this seems like cope of "why does my tank play style not get damage also?" U alr have tankyness and the hp sustain alr I don't think we need to round it off by giving it damage that builds passively

main mist
astral flower
full oar
astral flower
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I don't usually play tanks, but as a main healer in other games i do understand that on Wynncraft, tanks and healers are underapreciated and lack mechanics to increase their usage and fun

main mist
astral flower
full oar
main mist
astral flower
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imo that would give more identity to air, most air items are OP just because of the lack of air related mechanics, air could be more related and in that way you could balance Air to be less ofensive and more defensive like fire

main mist
main mist
astral flower
astral flower
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like a example of this would be the lack of tank related MiDs we could count with 1 hand the ammount of MiD related to tank mechanics, compared to MiDs dedicated to DPS mechanics

main mist
full oar
astral flower
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wynncraftt could do this, adapting some stuff, for example a tank spell cycle could reward tanks with added agro (temporally) or some other mechanics outside of taunt

main mist
astral flower
astral flower
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tho i know that it requires to much dev time, it would be amazing for the game enviroment

main mist
thorn thorn
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Vengeful should be moved to summoner thumbsupemoji

digital sorrel
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Dont think this afk gameplay should be rewarded more

astral flower
digital sorrel
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Honestly i think laby is on the same level of skill

astral flower
digital sorrel
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Either you do a shit ton of damage or you immobilize the boss

astral flower
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the only situation where laby is not rewarding as a tank is on TCC

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and annie is almost the same

digital sorrel
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Anyways its like comparing piss to shit

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Theyre both bad

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I think tanks should get more damage but like you gotta sac the immortality and the boss immobilization

astral flower
trail swan
weary walrus
stone axle
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all i pray for reflections to shoot flying mobs down

weary walrus
astral flower
proud delta
# astral flower thats the whole point, you are getting more rewarded for playing tank, tanks out...

tanks are broken and ruin boss fights for other people -- playing with a provoke user is enough to make someone fall asleep. tanks are plenty rewarding in solo queue but they are just very very boring conceptually and have literally nothing to do -- big mac literally just presses three buttons slowly i don't think that's very interesting and you don't really have to "manage" anything

healers aren't as impactful because damage numbers are way overtuned but they are also busted lol

main mist
proud delta
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provoke already has enough uptime right now to make bosses literally just stand still for almost no effort whatsoever

main mist
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It's also a big diffrence when u know u have like 8seconds to fully commit with nothing to fear other than random mobs which can usually be ignored

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Compared to where it can switch agro at a moments notice and punish greedy plays and where it moves around naturally

proud delta
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just kinda a huge issue that there is nothing to do in most raids other than just slam the boss really hard with huge AOE attacks

flat sequoia
frigid epoch
flat sequoia
pallid field
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@guild_community

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@memes

flat sequoia
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nah according to most wynncrafters, the peak humor in our community is seeing a godroll on an item and then the like fire defence% is red on wynntils and you say "fire defence is bad, reroll"

pallid field
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its not on bmonk scale tho

flat sequoia
thorn thorn
flat sequoia
astral flower
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and you are only talking about tanks = taunt gameplay, but im talking about tank mechanics that doesn't have to rely in taunt

thorn thorn
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What are some tank mechanics in wynn that don't rely on taunt

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Because it feels like when someone is talking about wynn tanks they are automatically referring to pala

astral flower
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second chance

thorn thorn
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True

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I know I didn't specify this, but it's disappointing that the tank role is pretty much locked to Warrior

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Altruism sucks soo

astral flower
astral flower
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or at least not as polished as it should be

thorn thorn
astral flower
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also there are other tank mechanics, LB has freezing sigil which turns around KB which is a tank mechanic

thorn thorn
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I'd consider that a support mechanic

astral flower
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still remains as tank

thorn thorn
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Since LB isn't the one doing the tanking

astral flower
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yeah you can, i do it for a semi-glue build

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specially since you can trigger a lot of stuff with KB resistance

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sunflare being an example

thorn thorn
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How do you keep aggro on you

astral flower
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you dont, you can use freezing sigil in annie for example, enter inside annie and all the orbs around you are going to hit, at the same time you change BP for nearby acolytes and you trigger sunflare to grant them mana

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also usable for TCC, TNA and orphion

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and NoTG

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The hardest one being TNA bc of the hitbox

thorn thorn
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Interesting

astral flower
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and you don't even need to care a lot about agro since NoTG core strategy is wall sitting, Orphion is just being in front of him and TNA is just about following the one who has the aggro

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and is a tank mechanic since everyone can do it without agro, you can grant an ignis that KB resistance and proc also altruism inside annie

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healing constantly others

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TCC is harder bc of hard cc but you can also do it there

thorn thorn
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Cool tech but this is quite gimmicky and I still wouldn't 100% classify it as being a tank

astral flower
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you mitigate dmg by recieving dmg and also charging bp, you are making acolyte perform stuff with BP for example

thorn thorn
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You are not occupying the aggressor if you can't consistently take aggro, peeling is difficult in this game because in pve the boss just runs it down

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Support abilities overlap with tank abilities

astral flower
astral flower
thorn thorn
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To tank means you take the brunt of the damage so the others can survive longer

astral flower
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yes, by recieving dmg i charge constantly and keep full bp for a resonance, that reso can survive longer because of it

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especially because that means that the reso is not draining his own hp, is a dmg mitigation

thorn thorn
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Except everyone else is also taking damage, blood rite doesn't need you to sit inside charge consistently

astral flower
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being a tank is not about recieving the whole dmg but a fraction of it

digital sorrel
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Tank gameplay is shallow

thorn thorn
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It shines in pvp better than pve

digital sorrel
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Its very sad maybe one day tho

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Justice for tanks

astral flower
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and yeah you can do that ouside of annie, i do it on NoTG with 2 resos i can fully charge them

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that way i mitigate dmg for a cata player

digital sorrel
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The lack of tank mechanics make them worse in solo content too

thorn thorn
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The resos can charge off themselves they don't need a 3rd

digital sorrel
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Their only advantage is face tank and ig that full heal?

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Rather than useful cc for bosses

astral flower
thorn thorn
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I'm a believer that boss cci should be scaled back

digital sorrel
astral flower
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and in that way you can also do some spell spam and errors in cycling, because sunflare regens mana too

thorn thorn
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You can do that with a normal LB as well

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In notg everyone takes the damage

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Pala saves lives LB gives sustain

astral flower
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and also FS is what keeps you close to allies

thorn thorn
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Giving knockback res to teammates is support imo

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Constant attacks would be mitigated by a gaurd

astral flower
astral flower
thorn thorn
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bp drain is irrelevant and is countered by having a second healer

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Or build correctly and self sustain

astral flower
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like annie dealing 20k dmg per second once you get inside of her is not even doable without overheal

thorn thorn
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There is no reason to chill inside anni

astral flower
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procts sunflare constantly and fortitude

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and you are immune to annie death rays

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my dps inside annie is almost 500k with lament + Crabs

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without winded

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and i charge bp and charge mana for allies

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like reso bp is always full

thorn thorn
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None of this requires standing inside anni

astral flower
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i don't understand, is my aproach wrong?

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is it worse or could be improved?

thorn thorn
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It's just unnecessary imo, all of these things will happen without the need to be inside anni

astral flower
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why is it unnecessary?

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sunflare is not easy to trigger with reso on the party

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and having full orbs is harder without recieving dmg

thorn thorn
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Listen I'm not trying to criticize your tactics, my original point is that Warrior 90% of the time is the better pick if you want a dedicated tank

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Most of these things can and will be achieved on LB without needing to abuse FS

astral flower
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and also using that allows ignis to fully use altruism

thorn thorn
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The only thing you're achieving is getting better uptime

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On support abilities

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And this is pretty much only super effective on anni

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And still is not what I would consider typical tank behaviour

astral flower
astral flower
thorn thorn
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It only really seems like it'll be effective on anni because of the way the fight is set up

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It's much more difficult to get on any other boss

thorn thorn
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I respect your strategy, it does seem effective for anni

astral flower
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i would honestly do something different if LB had more nodes or something, i don't like winded so i go full LB

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love mages in games and love healers but is a shame that LB is so simple as a character

thorn thorn
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Which is why I like RW more

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And shaman even more than that lol

astral flower
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i don't like shamman aesthetics in games neither short ranged classes so im left only with mage/archer to play and archer doesn't have much supportive stuff integrated

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but i do play somethimes the other 3 classes

thorn thorn
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I know what you mean, I typically don't like playing anything nonmagical

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Shaman in wynn is quite long ranged though, and is the most complex which I really enjoy

astral flower
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i do like necromancer or cleric but is nonexistent here and i like poison/debuff related stuff but here on wynncraft is also nonexistent (poison here sucks)