Toxoplasmosis

[amber sail]

it does deal rainbow dmg

[olive vigil]

oh I am stupid then woops

I could see a scenario where Orbital Chain somehow adds onto the chosen powder special instead of requiring Chain Lightning

that actually opens up a lot of versatility

Courage Dauntless + the pull and nuke

Wind Prison + nuke

[river prism]

1. Maybe people should try using singu as a heavy hybrid as intended with spell steal
2. In an ideal world where theres a perfectly designed weapon that is in the wrong environment, doesn't change that its a perfectly designed weapon. My point is that theres no usefullness in commenting about the weakness of something that hasn't had the conditions to shine. Comment about the conditions, not the weapon itself
3. your comparison is completely ludicrous, as i said its a giga buff to chain lightning and a free spell at the end of it for big damage. There is no comparison here with "quetz getting a heal major id". Gaia would never get a major id that would make it viable keeping its identity and the current mage tree so i dont see the usefulness in complaining lol
4. you completely misunderstood my point and i literally couldn't make it any better
5. use chain lightning then? Its a dex item just do it. Gravity well would be SO MUCH WORSE than this major id it literally does nothing effective whatsoever have you even looked at that it gives meteor a slightly bigger range
6. How is a playstyle ever going to be encouraged or viable if we are permanently bound to only add things that are already supported. This is a really silly argument. Singu's is far from cosmetic as i said and gaia with a few qol improvements and atree support would be great

[proper ravine]

@river prism also your first point is disingenuous because you didn't even read my message in its entirety. I literally said "changes playstyle or reinforces the one you're already using" and then you hit me with "So do you want a new ability or do you want something that plays into the meta 🤔" when I specifically said either one would be fine.

[olive vigil]

I forget if Superconductor takes priority or vice versa

[river prism]

Theres no limit on these things lol

don't imagine there is one

[scarlet moth]

Heavy hybrid on lb is very scuffed, ur winded stacking is terrible and fully reliant on gust (but ur dmg will be 0 if u build more Ms)

[olive vigil]

ik but it was funny

[dusk grotto]

Nulli got a rework and its infinitely better than the other 2. It fits its role well as a tankier option and has atree support in the form of stuff like diversion, dgas or something like distraction

And its gonna get even more support id presume with the new trickster rework that is coming next

[slim summit]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/262010576295821312/1364724912010428506/thewynncraftdamage.gif

[river prism]

And i have happily responded to that in many threads tbh

[olive vigil]

Trickster rework my beloved, this Echo damage cheese is some bs and ruins the archetype

[dusk grotto]

Nulli isnt considered meta or anything but id argue that it is very well designed because of that

[river prism]

if its truly the only complain then i fear we've wasted a lot of keyboard on this

[dusk grotto]

Its mid simply works with the atree well

[solemn dome]

riftwalker/lightbender being locked to certain attack speeds is also incredibly stupid if you ask me

[olive vigil]

it's very soulful put against the soulless dps slave meta builds so I wouldn't expect it to win either

[dusk grotto]

Yeah cause its like the biggest hinderance both weapons face

[olive vigil]

true melee atree stuff needs to scale with attack speed like Winded and Bleed

[dusk grotto]

Like you dont really need much else to justify them being not effective

Searching for more reasons as to why they arent effective does notging becuase you have the big fat one right infront of you

You dont need more justification than that

[slim summit]

I would love my Super Slow Hadal attack speed to apply more than 0.5s of bleed every 2 second, and not to be forced to use a terrible uproot that converts into the opposite element for damage

[dusk grotto]

Its not some petty complaint yk

[proper ravine]

1.) They would if it was worth their time. There's a reason why it's not popular.

2.) We can't comment on the ideal conditions for it to shine because we can't tell the future. If given the choice between fundamentally changing the ability tree, or swapping out one small Major ID, it's FAR simpler to work on the singular weapon than to change the core of an archetype and possibly the entire meta around multiple wands. Again, we are not in the wrong for having criticisms about poor implementation.

3.) Giga buff to something you don't use and you don't use it because it's objectively awful. "Gaia would never get a major ID to change it's viability" the Laby in question. It's entirely possible AND DOABLE, but if you're saying CT doesn't care about Gaia enough to make it viable based on MId alone then that's unfortunate. I cant convince you to care about it.
Unless you meant that their approach is through stat changes, as opposed to having a broken MId. In that case, that's a positive approach I can get behind!

4.) My understanding was you saying "we can't make a Major ID that will permanently withstand the test of time" which is a moot point because it CURRENT does not work in current time. Talking about a hypothetical future when the present isn't good is a terrible point to argue. Please be more specific a out what you meant because clearly I didn't understand what you were trying to say

5.) I would, if it was actually worth it to use. Saying "Hey we added this shit ability that you'll get use out of if you sabotage your build and specifically spec into something that isn't worth using " like bruh. That's such a tone deaf HR response of "it's not bad because it's only marginally useful!"

[proper ravine]

6.) BY MAKING IT USEFUL. Literally what we have been saying from the beginning. Mortar was only used because it had the numbers! You can't seriously expect anyone to play that gameplay loop while providing 0 niche benefit!

[dusk grotto]

And ive given you an example of a new mid that was handled well incomparison to singu and gaia s

[proper ravine]

But for some reason we're not allowed to complain about it? Gaia and Singu major IDs aren't supported in current game, and while wishing for ability tree support would be great, that doesn't mean we aren't allowed to complain about the Major ID itself too, and wish that it worked with the current tree

[amber sail]

hahahah YES, so true

[river prism]

you're totally missing the point. I never said it was petty or unimportant. Many just seem to have failed to realise that the reason im desperately searching for another reason is because the ability tree point has been brought up a gazillion times and has been answered a gazillion more times. Why repeat it when its been answered and we know what the outcome and the solution to that problem is. Theres no reason to keep going in circles lol

[dusk grotto]

What more reason do you need tho

[river prism]

When people continue to repeat a complaint thats been addressed already i obviously wonder if theres some new reasoning thats been thought of

[solemn dome]

do we just have to wait for the riftwalker rework to bring melee support with it

[river prism]

theres no reason to bring up gaia's major id being ineffective again unless theres more reasoning to me lol

[amber sail]

my wall argument is back , yay

[river prism]

every im and atree member has said the mage tree doesn't have good melee support built into it, so are you surprised that gaia still isn't a great weapon lol?

[dusk grotto]

Im only bringing it up cause someone said gaias design is good and im aruging againsy it naturally its gonna get brought back up

[proper ravine]

You're one person who has repeated themselves multiple times.

I have literally never had this conversation until now. So when you talk about the solution being brought up a million times, I don't know what you're talking about

[amber sail]

then ur not active in these posts lol, I had it about 10times already, and it always goes in circles

[dusk grotto]

I never thought a melee mid was gonna make gaia mid

Whoch is why i said the time should have been used on another weapon

Which i said when the buff intially came out

[river prism]

in my first message i said the mage tree lacks melee support and this needs addressing, belgariond even specifically quoted this to you and mentionned it when you ignored it once and you instead decided to say that its irrelevant and continued critiquing something thats already known

[amber sail]

^^ wall

[proper ravine]

I'm making the point that I'm allowed to complain about how something that feels unrewarding currently because I didn't have confirmation that mage would get proper melee support in the future

I still don't, unless this is you implying it?

[dusk grotto]

Well they clearly are talking about the design being good regardless of the atree issues

And i am obviously arguing again that 💀

[solemn dome]

Btw is super slow lightbender gonna be playable in the future or is it intended that lightbender starts at slow attack speed

[river prism]

the same misconception i mentionned before: "the time should have been used on another weapon" is not relevant. The item makers decide what they work on and as they are volunteers like the rest of the ct this also depends on them wanting to change a certain item or even just having the inspiration to design a change to an item

[dusk grotto]

Yes i know they are volunteers im fairly critiquing their use of time

[amber sail]

also why focus on items that have tree support, those usually don't need the attention I think

[dusk grotto]

???

[amber sail]

wild argument, it's their free time lol

[solemn dome]

U need to look in the mirror and ask yourself if repeating yourself over and over even though you've made your point very clear is a good use of your time

[dusk grotto]

Im critiquing their use of time im I not allowed to

[amber sail]

gimme an example this is something I'm not sure about

[proper ravine]

Ok, thank you. That's eye opening

"We cannot freely move around or allocate resources however we like, as volunteers will work on whatever they are motivated to change"

We can have personal opinions and criticize the use of their time like @dusk grotto said, but it's also good for us to have the understanding that it wasn't some "decision" handed down to them, it was each individual deciding what they wanted to do

[dusk grotto]

Lemme just get a list of all the mythics 1 sec

[solemn dome]

?! 😭

[river prism]

It is so often the case that game mechanics to support the fantasy of a new design direction thought up by someone take a while to come along.

is this not heavily implying that the lack of melee support is something we'd like to change?

also, something thats been brought up in the past is "why so many powder major ids, are they starting a new trend". This is also to do with the fact that ims/atree didn't always have access to a developer semi dedicated to regular patches (regular patches didnt exist lol)

lots of ideas, designing and even some of the very major ids that we're talking about were designed, conceptualised and thought about before these patches even started lol

they obviously got tweaked when they were going to become a reality but its just a bit petty to say "they should have spent time on another weapon" when its like "hey I just had a cool idea for gaia... whats wrong with that"

[dusk grotto]

Monster hana inferno fanta freedom apoc ashock

Spring too

[proper ravine]

Maybe i didn't communicate it well enough but:

I like this. I LIKE new play styles and avenues for fun being explored. BUT I'm allowed to complain about things that don't work currently.
Saying "Stop complaining it will work eventually" gives the same energy as shitty half made games being released at launch and then fanboys defending it with "stop complaining they said they're going to release patches and DLC"

Like obviously there's a difference between a game you play for free, vs a $70 game you bought with your own money, but the core criticism of "Why was this made when it doesn't bring joy" is still a valid complaint

[dusk grotto]

Yes im critiquing the decision made right now

I dont know the future of this game i cant predict shit

[proper ravine]

I love Gaia's ability. I hate how poorly it functions as of right now.

I'm allowed to say it's "a bad ability" because objectively speaking, it's not useful as of this moment
It's really really cool, but unfortunately that's all it is, nothing more

[dusk grotto]

Who knows when melee mage support comes out i know forsure its not right now

[river prism]

i didnt say stop complaing, I said stop complaining about the weapon's functionality and design

[dusk grotto]

????

[river prism]

complain about the ability tree, suggest how melee integration could be added, think of cool mage abilities to improve your melee

this is the real problem so complain about the problem!

[proper ravine]

Ohh okay okay I see what you mean

[river prism]

we have people working on riftwalker right now! melee integration is on their radar

[amber sail]

ok:
Inferno: I think there was a nice thread about this with some very eyopening arguments why this is not the case, I recommend u to check it out
Hana: Its basically acro where doesn't it hacve tree support, its a very cool idea it just doesnt perform as a annie mythic
fanta and freedom suffer from rainbow problem, which in my opinion is mostly missing item support (fanta should work with every tree, freedom ur point is valid but it also works with trapper and sharp)

[river prism]

complain as much as you like about mage melee atree sucking

[dusk grotto]

But its been known the atree lacks melee support and has been complained about multiple times why make a mid knowing this

[proper ravine]

Brb gonna buy a perfectly rolled Gaia

[amber sail]

apoc and aftershoch are both low lvl mythics so idk if they r valid to be brought up

[dusk grotto]

Inferno needs the same treatment as nulli lol

[amber sail]

I think this was answeared like 4 times alr

[river prism]

exploding changes helped apoc

[amber sail]

why don't u just go and read it lol

[river prism]

not mid related obv

[dusk grotto]

And it has a boiling blood major id

[dusk grotto]

Ive read it and i still have the same stance

[dusk grotto]

Read what i quoted lmao

[amber sail]

and spring has great synergy with trapper tree with weaken and slow stacking

[dusk grotto]

CCI

[amber sail]

nothig? idk

[normal viper]

So is there a chance toxo talk was heard about

[amber sail]

I hope so, i did post it on forum

[dusk grotto]

They said “complain about the atree” which people have been doing forever

Pretty sure people have complained about the atree more than gaia and singu have even been mentioned

[amber sail]

yes, but I think ur missing the point, we were NOT talking atree lol

[proper ravine]

From my understanding volunteers decide what they choose to work on. It would have been better for them to release it WITH the rift Walker changes, but they're not in the wrong for assuming we, the players, would enjoy a free buff to the weapon

Problem comes with the fact that we were metaphorically given like, a trust fund or a government bond instead of something tangible lol. We can't properly enjoy it until it matures

[dusk grotto]

What are you talking about then

[amber sail]

we specifically said we agree on atree problems

[dusk grotto]

Yes and i said there no point searching for other reasons

The only reason ive brought the atree up was cause you said gaia was good in design and im saying otherwise

[amber sail]

maybe u should read back lol... I stated it multiple times, and so did Terminated.
I will stop interacting with u for now, because it doesn't lead to anything.
Have a nice day

[dusk grotto]

Im not using this as an opportunity to talk about the atree problem with gaia again cause I did they went the buff first came out

[proper ravine]

So basically these Wands were given major IDs with the understanding that they would become relevant eventually in the future

This conversation still fits because ideally Toxo gets a fundamental rework to make it actually useful outside of AFK scenario, or a major ID that can reshape the weapon into actually being fun and great to use

[amber sail]

If they already plan a poison rework I guess there is no way they are giving toxo a mid for now... If they don't we have at least a little chance I think

[dusk grotto]

Again i will bring this back up

You said its good in design i said why its not you dont give counterpoints and say your talking to a wall simple as that

And the thing i was talking to you about was completely different to what i was talking to terminated about lmao

Idk why your self inserting yourself into it

[dusk grotto]

The last sentence sums it up well

Dont think anybody complained about it getting a buff rather the buff itself

[proper ravine]

I WANT to use Gaia. I WANT to use the cool ass tunneling worm thing and destroy bosses with it. But like... Right now I can't 😭

[dusk grotto]

You can tell the buff wasnt effective when people are using it for spell over the buffed melee major id lmao

[normal viper]

You can go melee gaia unlike toxo unable to go anything but poison

[dusk grotto]

Toxo is a lost cause my friend

[dusk grotto]

Theres nothing wrong with that im just giving my feedback on its effectiveness

This channel is called constructive criticism

[solemn dome]

I mean not rly.. it's such a miniscule change given that hmelee apoc is barely played

[safe kernel]

and with WE implemented in 2.1, it has less usage for some ingredients grinding

Nirvana MiD isn't fun but also allows a lot of fun mechanics tbh

even pure or guardian, they aren't designed for endgame dps but still have a MiD that thematically and functionally do their intended job and fits a niche in a nice way

and is important to notice that because otherwise CT would keep releasing those MiD that doesn't add much value on mythics

I remember someone suggesting a Gaia MiD that made poison apply winded, simple yet effective and probably fun, compared to the actual MiD that Gaia got

Toxoplasmosis is the disease, Toxoplasma spp. is the parasite 🤓

[regal mist]

pretty much said it for me

also, why make an mID that everybody knows is not going to have a decent use. They have complete control over what they make and could've used the mID to prop up the weapon instead of hitting us with "well the atree doesnt support it and thats not on us". Like yeah its not your job to fix the atree but why not have made something that doesn't rely on atree not sucking for melee

[safe kernel]

agree, and even if its not a strong meta option is fun and adds a lot of value to the weapon

[proper ravine]

1.) We are allowed to complain about a "buff" that doesn't even do anything meaningful in practice, absolutely. But like Termi said, the assumption is that it will eventually work, so the volunteers who made it are basically taking a leap of faith on the viability and usefulness of it. Like I said before, it's basically a trust fund/bond that we can't actually make full use of until it 'matures' 🤷‍♂️

I don't want to come across as ungrateful to the people who make this game. My opinion isn't that the ability is objectively bad and should be removed, it's that "it's bad in the current sandbox" and that makes me sad because I wish these wands were more popular

[proper ravine]

I think this all amounts to an unfortunate case of the MId releasing before the ability tree change, and players are misunderstanding the intent behind it

If this MId was framed differently people would be excited to use it. But the general attitude/understanding of discussion about it is:
"Stop complaining about how it doesn't work with ability tree, we know!"
as opposed to:
"We know it doesn't work, but it doesn't work YET. It's a sneak peak for all the crazy melee stuff you'll be able to do once Rift Walker gets updated!"

The difference in tone is as wildly different as a game being released on early access, vs a half finished game being released full price

Like, I feel like this wouldn't be a such a heated problem with players if every time someone brought up how bad it is currently, another person excitedly responded "Oh we know, but imagine how good it WILL be!"

[regal mist]

to me it feels like a waste of time to release weapons that rely on melee atree support because we are also busy with fruma taking up resources. So why not wait and buff struggling weapons in ways that actually helps and release a complete melee update/atree/rework patch at a later time

[proper ravine]

See, you have a point but

Termi said, they're volunteers. They do whatever they feel motivated to do. It's not a job

[regal mist]

i can still express my dissapointment on that regard

[proper ravine]

For me at least, I don't think we should feel entitled to their effort and work and designate them to specific tasks like that. Like obviously, coordinate efforts to the most important stuff (Fruma) but like, they're volunteers and if they feel passionate about something why should we tell them no?

[river prism]

I think you're in a minority if you want us to arbitrarily withold a weapon buff like that. There's no harm to it releasing now and tree support coming later

[river prism]

And it's like completely unrelated to Gaia thematically, winded will.be removed in the future so it would be a waste of time to implement and it is only being suggested short sightedly as a buff to make it meta viable right now.

We could also just double the base DPS of something in a major id and it would instantly be meta viable.. it's simple and effective right?

[proper ravine]

It's not unreasonable for people to ask for something that is both thematic to the weapon and functional

You could have just said something like "We didn't want to make it adhere to current rift walker since it's getting scrapped anyways." instead of this aggressive "well fine, why don't we just stop trying to be creative and make every major ID be damage buff" tone, and we would have understood, just saying..

[safe kernel]

yes, and would be a better band aid than adding a MiD or even adding more IDs

the problem comes when the addition or buff on something, doesn't solve anything, like TfThief said, players won't usually know what will come next, if you are planning on releasing a MiD for Gaia that rellies in the future of AT, the best thing to do is implementing both things at the same time if you know that the whole identity of the item is going to change, much like how Trance changed according to RW

at least for mythics, considering that are usually the most important items o

[river prism]

I didn't say that it was unreasonable i was commenting on why this idea (among many) is not necessarily the simple, effective fix that solves all problems

the point here is that Gaias future as a whole relies on at support being added

it makes complete sense that the gaia major id would follow the weapon's already cemented design and not completely deviate from that. The weapon is already lacking because of this lack of atree support and no major id would resolve that in the current landscape which makes this criticism unfair

[normal viper]

Winded removed, cant wait for 5th trance rework

[proper ravine]

The criticism comes from the idea that the MId could save it somehow, as there are some other Major IDs that have done so while staying true to the weapon. I'm not suggesting it's simple, but it absolutely is possible

[river prism]

lol ikr

[river prism]

I understand that, but this is the major id for gaia and singularity, singularities being designed by the weapon's original creator. We aren't going to put (especially) dev time into something that is 100% being reverted in the somewhat near future

[proper ravine]

It's just an unfortunate set of circumstance tbh.

I do think the mindset should be "Sure it's bad, but think about how good it WILL be"

[river prism]

it would create an unrealistic state for these weapons that would not only use up time creating in the first place just as a "placeholder major id" but also would use up everyones time balancing it in the months before future puzzle pieces fit into place.

That unrealistic state created by what has to be a low effort bandaid change would then be quoted by players when the innevitable change does happen to claim item makers have no ability to stick to a design and create a sense of instability because it could mean redoing builds that were made surrounding this major id that was only meant to be temporary

I fully understand your want for them to be good, we all want that too

Its just a very real problem that we have to design the game from our perspective knowing a lot more about future plans than you guys do because otherwise we would end up in a balancing rut where we use up all of our time and resources balancing things that were "only temporary". If only think about the current state of the game then nothing ever changes because nobody dares to think "what could be" down the line.

There's got to be a level of trust that we are aiming for the same end goal as all of you want

[proper ravine]

I think you should lead with this from now on if the conversation ever pops up again

[normal viper]

@river prism a question, do the raid bosses have some hidden poison resistance or its just a visual?

Dummy to compare

[glad flower]

level scaling i assume

[normal viper]

So poison is even worse in raids?

Worse than the abysmall 44k dps?

[glad flower]

like, you're still doing 133k to the bosses hp that you see

its just that the hp bar you are seeing is higher than the real bosses hp bar because of level scaling

everyone is affected by the damage reduction, not just poison

[manic sun]

it's level scaling

[left belfry]

I think we should make raid bosses poison immune just to spite the people who want to play such a non interactive mode ☺️

[normal viper]

https://tenor.com/view/limbus-company-canto-viii-lei-heng-project-moon-reload-gif-14416266550618323856

[safe kernel]

you would find more ppl playing poison just to troll

[left belfry]

ok

[normal viper]

We should make fruma raid boss fly so laby cant hit it

[scarlet moth]

also make it have anti air so acrobat cant be played ty

[normal viper]

From my 2 days of toxo experience
Its fucking abysmall in tcc because all mobs are too tanky and boss is purely single target damage oriented
It might have some use? in tna and notg for clearing the arms/worms summons but still ass
It might be an actuall niche for nol cuz the boss actually requires you to clear mobs unless you melt him in 2 seconds

also nol is the only raid with proper poison buff smh

anti 2 is stronger than all pestinelts in notg combined

Just wished it did actuall support for team more than regenration/vengeful spirit which are ability tree (any relic can do that, absolution is probably like 5 times better)

If it cant be damage oriented

[amber sail]

how about poison scaling with earth dmg % and poison weakens and its scaling with water dmg%, which would make it support oriented while also buffing galleon lol

or earth dmg scales resistance shred instead of dmg, would probably fit better thematically

[normal viper]

Imagine if the 110 strenght investment to even use toxo did anything

[amber sail]

ye

[normal viper]

Why is poison an earth "status" when it doesnt benefit from it

Its like giving water weapons main attack damage

[amber sail]

galleon in question? I dont mind it tbh, I just wish hybrids stats had a valid use

agree on the strength part with poison

[normal viper]

The issue with galleon for poison

Is that its outclassed by fabled which has much better sp reqs

[amber sail]

yes, but its not just poison boots imo, more emphasis should be made on lb and stealing as it has this pirate theme

also with my suggested scalings it would not be outclassed anymore

(lowkey give it a mid that steals % max health from bosses based off ur stealing [capped at 10% or so and u don't gain the health])

idk could be decent or broken

[warped crag]

It used to give them
Then they nerfed poison

[safe kernel]

it used to benefit poison

however there was a time were poison was broken

for example, thorns activating poison and building tank + poison (kinda fun for PvP)

[amber sail]

I think we all know this. I think the point is why do poison wep have a str req, when it doesn’t do anything

Or toxo giving + 40 strength that basically do nothing, cause it doesn’t have dmg that could scale up.
So either make that scaling a toxo specific thing (I don’t think that’s the way to go) or make it scale in a way that doesn’t break the game (more of a support weapon)

[safe kernel]

the problem comes where str should not be tied to a offensive thing (fire should take its place) in order to make poison the offensive of higher hp builds or debuffer builds, dps cannot relly fully on poison and design wise this is kinda a limitation

[amber sail]

I think I didn’t get all of that.

So u think poison should not be tied to the earth element, but instead be connected to something else (like fire) and go more into a supporting role?

If that is ur point, I agree with the supporting role.
Changing the element is something that I think is not feasible, cause a lot of items would have to be reworked.

Interesting take though

[safe kernel]

nono, im talking about the limitation of earth being offensive while fire being defensive

thorns and poison are earth related and could work great together, however there is no reason to use thorns on earth builds, fire is defensive and could use poison, however, poison is not a related to fire

is not only a limitation designwise but also some IDs tied to some things won't work because of that, for example heavy melee could work better if earth switched place with fire

tier attack things usually are thunder related, and works great in some cases such as epoch, earth too, but could have more advantage if earth was a defensive, not only to benefit the element but also give more variety

is like -sp cost being int related while int being related to other sustain things such as max mana or mana regen, it kinda interacts weirdly

[regal mist]

i also think earth and fire should swap but its just not going to happen unfortunately

[gilded moth]

no

[plain fractal]

#1391095463452606575