Summoner Discussion i guess

[little yoke]

mask and bullwhip 😭😭😭

[tepid pivot]

yeah lol

[hearty summit]

funny callout

[tepid pivot]

ok i did some wrong math

4 totems is still worse but 3 is technically better, by 20% effigy dmg but at the same time, u cant pickup masks so it like does worse overall dmg

[hearty summit]

why would you want masks and bullwhip? do you use haunting memory?

[tepid pivot]

yeah

[hearty summit]

what would you say the damage difference is? and what is the tree?

[tepid pivot]

i made a slight change, technically effigy wise 3 totems does do the most by 20%, a slight miscalc, but still triple totem does worse overall (misses out on mask, aura dmg decrease

[hearty summit]

i’d like to do some testing

[tepid pivot]

i would say like 10% idk im just throwing numbers out here, but i do know double totem is probably bis

[abstract matrix]

just to make it clear

effigy dmg goes from 100% to 80% to 64% to 51.2% per totem

its not worded clearly on the ability so yeah

[tepid pivot]

sourcE?

[hearty summit]

oh yeah effigy damage reduction is not flat

[tepid pivot]

it mulitplies on itself?

[hearty summit]

yeah

[abstract matrix]

#1265241987771006976 message

[tepid pivot]

oh let me recalc then, id still say double is best but it might be a lot closer than i thought and aspects might be the only thing that needs buffing

[hearty summit]

effigies could use some utility outside of damage, but i wouldnt really say summoner needs much of a damage buff if any at all

i do agree that effigies are pretty uninteresting

[tepid pivot]

thank u for the correction wise, i appreciate it a lot actually

wait then why does quad do so much less triple

[hearty summit]

quad totem does less damage than triple for you?

[tepid pivot]

yeah

[hearty summit]

by how much?

[tepid pivot]

ill test rn

[ashen orchid]

That's, not how the damage debuff works. It's multiplicitave with itself, not additive.

[little yoke]

wise said that already i think

[tepid pivot]

i was making changes

sorry for being slow but imma do some more numbers testing

[ashen orchid]

totem count : effective effigy damage
Single : 1x
Double : 1.6x
Triple : 1.92x
Quad : 2.048x

[tepid pivot]

This aspect kind of sucks, give sec on my recommendation lol sorry

yeah i know i did the math

[hearty summit]

from my testing my dps went up when using quad totem aspect

[ashen orchid]

effective damage = 0.8^(totemCount - 1) * totemCount

I just verified this yesterday

[tepid pivot]

compared to double?

[hearty summit]

oh double

i’ll try that, was on triple

[ashen orchid]

The math in your post is completely wrong

[hearty summit]

double totem does less damage than both triple and quad

what haunting memory + bullwhip tree were you talking about?

[tepid pivot]

oh for some reason it didnt update the effigy dmg change i made for triple totem but the double and quad are the same

[tepid pivot]

ill post in sec

double being better than triple is still funny

[hearty summit]

very curious to see how practical what youre talking about is

cuz haunting memory is so annoying to use

[tepid pivot]

https://wynnbuilder.github.io/builder?v=16#9_2SG2SH2SI2SJ2SK2SL2SM2SN0Qu001p0000001g000000z0z0+0+0+0+0-1TzRwxDBOy0
WynnBuilder build:

No Helmet
No Chestplate
No Leggings
No Boots
No Ring 1
No Ring 2
No Bracelet
No Necklace
Sunstar []

[tepid pivot]

yes, but damage boost

just wait till i make a post on birds

[ashen orchid]

Totem Count : Aura damage
Single : 1x
Double : 1.2x
Triple : 1.5x
Quad : 1.8x

Triple is worse, but it's required to take Quad, and Quad is an improvement, plus you get more from Invig

[opal condor]

🤯
Not to mention invig wave which is the best part about having extra totems

[abstract matrix]

its 1.2x im fairly sure

for double

[opal condor]

But summoner aspect t2 and t3 is a different story...
7k extra dps from hummingbirds 🔥 🗣️ ‼️

[ashen orchid]

oh yeah, damn
Triple is just better

[hearty summit]

im seeing some decent damage with this tree but i can still end up hitting higher with quad totem

for reference my
build, with this tree, peaks around 380k and hovers around 320, whereas with quad totem i’m peaking like 480k and hovering 440-450

this is with max aspects

[tepid pivot]

what does max quad look like

[hearty summit]

i’ll clip in a sec

[tepid pivot]

no i mean

nvm ill wiki it

[ashen orchid]

no change besides +1 Totem

[hearty summit]

oh the aspect

[ashen orchid]

I assume auto left the aspect on for the hummingbird buffs

[hearty summit]

i did

i just took off totem aoe for stances

[ashen orchid]

smordful

[tepid pivot]

oh its shepherd buff

[hearty summit]

outdated

[ashen orchid]

I'll go update it

[tepid pivot]

what is it now (why is it outdated fml)

[stray edge]

damn I hoped it would be +2 birds

[hearty summit]

tier 2 is +1 bird tier 3 is range

[tepid pivot]

hummingbird buff. :crawling my eyes:

[ashen orchid]

it's like 30k more damage

[tepid pivot]

i hate hummingbirds as additional dmg

like the entire concept of hummingbirds, not the aspect

[ashen orchid]

I love Hummingbirds

[orchid arch]

If I’m not mistaken if a hummingbird is 30%, then 2 is 60%, 3 is 90% right?

[tepid pivot]

id love hummingbirds if it was
not before triple and invig
didnt do dmg and just gave ws and jh

[hearty summit]

yeah they each do 30% dps per hit

[tepid pivot]

summoner mobility sucked pre hummingbiurd

[orchid arch]

Thought so 🤣

[abstract matrix]

the t2 and t3 aspect is lame as hell ngl i feel like its kinda lazy

[orchid arch]

T3 is barely noticeable

[hearty summit]

t3 aspect is like literally nothing

[tepid pivot]

and now its like, u can use them as mobility, but it just isnt worth it compared to the dmg buff.

[orchid arch]

T2 is a dmg buff but It doesn’t get noted as one but just 1+ hummingbirds

[tepid pivot]

t3 sucks, t2 looks rly good

[hearty summit]

it only increases the range the birds can be from you when they're already latched on to something

[ashen orchid]

30% every 0.25s

[abstract matrix]

imagine if t3 lets you throw 6 totems (this is NOT a good idea)

[tepid pivot]

if this was like 10% 1jh per bird

the 2nd tier of hummiongbird would be so much cooler

[ashen orchid]

making it scale per-bird would be cool

[tepid pivot]

maybe thats a post i should make

but someone probably alrdy noted it, or i could just type it in the ability tree chat like a normal person ROFL

[ashen orchid]

I really don't know where thew line between "suggestion" and "constructive feedback" is, it seems unnecessary and weirdly enforced.

[tepid pivot]

i see them as the same
and if i get punished, so be it

[ashen orchid]

really, all suggestions are a form of feedback

all bug reports are a form of feedback

[abstract matrix]

contrastive feedback is more like pointing out the good and bad stuff of the game while suggestion is making something new based on what you feel

at least thats how i see it personally

[hearty summit]

yeah this is what i do like all the time lol

[tepid pivot]

but i think the entire direction of this post is super aimless and i dont rly have any more takes, cus t2 changes the dmg difference a whole bunch, i also thought the aura debuff was muliplicative somehow but if it isnt, then yeah thats not even a factor it benefits more totems if anything

[ashen orchid]

autosmord is one of the few people who uses it properly to give his perspective instead of making any suggestions

[abstract matrix]

the line is definitely blurry and i think its fine if you include suggestions as long as you elaborate on the issues you want to fix

[tepid pivot]

i think my hummingbird suggestion is pure positives

allows the aspect to be a lot more dynamic and also just allows for summoner to get more mobility

atleast in clear rooms, and non dps intensive situations

[ashen orchid]

I had this sleep deprived conversation in my guild chat just last night, maybe just make sure to test your numbers before making a post complaining about them next time.

[tepid pivot]

well the dmg for me is definitely worse, but the math says otherwise

thats the main reason i made this

[hearty summit]

i also found that this tree you provided does more damage than triple totem but less than quad, with max aspects being used

[tepid pivot]

but i had a lot of wrong info and after all the correcting, math tells me that it should be better, but it just isnt for me

[hearty summit]

i think that is more of a balance issue with Masks than an actual issue with effigies or totems though

[tepid pivot]

masks are a bit bad

[hearty summit]

because the fact that you can just forego a lot of summoner's tree in favour of getting a mask and you get massive value is just dumb

[tepid pivot]

they need changing but idk how to balance them, i dont blame ct

[keen gulch]

t3 summoner mythic could def use a change

i like +1 hummingbird for the t2

[tepid pivot]

but there definitely is a lot of issues with summoner, i stand by that

[hearty summit]

t2 is good

[abstract matrix]

the 5 totem dream

[hearty summit]

maybe tier 3 could be some kind of effigy effect

[ashen orchid]

+1 hummingbird could do to come with a boost to the passive effects of hummingbirds as well

[indigo stirrup]

@crimson leaf

[tepid pivot]

like hummingbird placement, it being dmg, ability bloat, non consolidation, and some abilities being stupid

[hearty summit]

given that they have literally 0 support throughout the entire tree i could see it fitting in

[keen gulch]

i'll take suggestions tho no guarantee on if it happens

[tepid pivot]

shepherd is so situational and i hate how out of the way it is, i also will always hate how hummingbird is before so much good stuff

[keen gulch]

+1 totem is an effigy effect transitively

[hearty summit]

i suppose but it also affects like 4 other things

[tepid pivot]

and cus of ability bloat, mixing summoner with other trees requires u to give up SO much.

[keen gulch]

lol

yea sure i agree

[hearty summit]

tier 1 summoner is so insanely loaded lol

[keen gulch]

a lot of this is early tree old abilities that dont serve much of a purpose

like... overseer has no reason to exist rn

natures jolt

stuff like that

[tepid pivot]

and also i still stnad by

[hearty summit]

overseer + flaming tongue

[ashen orchid]

Possibility: Make T1 have slightly worse then current ratios, and T3 have slightly better then current ratios

[tepid pivot]

the plus puppets, should just be in one thing

but thats a lot more nitpicky, def not nearly as bad as the early on abilities that do nothing for summoner

[keen gulch]

the only reason they arent is bc we didnt have an ability to place where one of them would get removed

[sturdy bear]

225 mana regen 😍

[keen gulch]

or rather we did have a node idea but it ended up falling through and didnt happen

[abstract matrix]

then the marginal effect of t2->t3 would be greater than t1->t2 for any reasonable numbers you choose (i.e. multiples of 5)

[indigo stirrup]

df mains HATE this PERSON!

[orchid arch]

Summoner turning their totems into engineer dispensers like: (the mana is the ammo)

[tepid pivot]

just put the -aura cost thing there, and then have the space where that ability was, just empty.

[orchid arch]

https://tenor.com/view/tf2-engineer-engineering-memes-goofy-ahh-pictures-dispenser-gif-26263518

[tepid pivot]

also put more puppets wayyy later

or just have +2 puppets, no +1 puppet ability, and add 1 puppet to original puppet master

[hearty summit]

idk i feel like the extra puppets having progression is good. i think AP saving can come from stuff at the top of the tree just being needlessly AP heavy

[tepid pivot]

but this would be overkill if either u removed a lot of current bloat, or reworked how masks works with bullwhip

[hearty summit]

why tf is nature's jolt 2 ap bruh

[keen gulch]

masks are a problem etc etc this conversation has been had a million times

[tepid pivot]

why does it exist LOL

[orchid arch]

For a skill that’s barely noticeable in combat yeah

[tepid pivot]

yeah ik but u get what i mean

[hearty summit]

it sucks so much lol

[tepid pivot]

but like smth that doesnt get talked abt a lot is hummingbird placement

[keen gulch]

i think birds are fine where they are

truthfully

[tepid pivot]

id LOVE if hummingbird was first off, after triple totem and invig

[hearty summit]

yeah i also dont have any complaints about birds

[tepid pivot]

cus i want the option to NOT pick them up and go for other abilities

[abstract matrix]

the placement doesnt feel fine rn because of the early game ap bloat rather than the placement itself

[tepid pivot]

and i just wish it was a mobility thing, and shepherd stayed as the end ability

[orchid arch]

Only way to rly make it “ usable “ is the aspect

[hearty summit]

this just sucks lol shepherd is awful

[tepid pivot]

its kinda stupid good still since all the puppet buffs, and then they put it at the utter bottom of summoner

[ashen orchid]

Sheperd isn't remotely good enough to be a red node

[tepid pivot]

i think shepherd hate is fine but

[orchid arch]

And even then it’s dmg is comparable to totemic smash without the summon dmg boost

[hearty summit]

shepherd is only good when Summoenr doesnt need it to be good

[keen gulch]

shepherd is really strong when there are mobs to kill and godawful when there arent (raid bosses generally lol)

[ashen orchid]

in raids it has quite literally zero effect

[tepid pivot]

the birds being mobility only is NOT a bad idea. just reallocate the dps to effigies like originally

[hearty summit]

in nol it can be good

[orchid arch]

Unless it’s NOL, outside of it it’s sorta useless in raids

[keen gulch]

we're not gonna do this

[tepid pivot]

or notg, and sometimes tcc

[abstract matrix]

also hummingbirds make sense as a red node and red node SHOULD be mandatory for identity purposes

you shouldnt just be able to skip it or smth

[tepid pivot]

i hate summoner so much

[hearty summit]

summoner in tcc lol

literally cant do anything

[tepid pivot]

fair, but puppets

[orchid arch]

I mean the birds can lock on to the colossus but it takes them 3 seconds to do so out of the 10 seconds of active time which is better than nothing

[hearty summit]

you lose so much effectiveness cuz your summons just fall off

[tepid pivot]

but no shepherd only does nothing in tna, one of the four raids. it is NOT a bad ability like people say

[ashen orchid]

Summoner is nearly perfect as an archetype, I really don't understand why you're hating on it so much

[tepid pivot]

fair but not a shepherd issue

[hearty summit]

it isnt inherently bad but it absolutely does not deserve to be a red node when the birds exist

[abstract matrix]

shepherd is decent i do take it in some cases but its too inconsistent to be a red node

[ashen orchid]

it does nothing in NotG

[tepid pivot]

its good

[hearty summit]

it's too situational

[tepid pivot]

this is just a lie, what.

[abstract matrix]

summoner’s logic of red node being a new type of summon being introduced is really nice

[keen gulch]

shepherd (and basically all other on kill abilities) suffer from a bad trigger. i think being able to get more puppets temporarily is very neat but realistically its not usable in a lot of places

[ashen orchid]

There aren't nearly enough enemies for it to be useful

[tepid pivot]

the situations arise in like 3/4 raids (only issue is that summoner itself doesnt work in tcc so meh)

[tepid pivot]

a lie, or misinformation, either or

[abstract matrix]

i think killing segments do count but ultimately puppet dps doesnt matter much in notg given notg is more or less testing your aoe rather than single target dmg

[hearty summit]

even if shepherd is good in your use cases there is like negative merit for it being a red node over the birds

[tepid pivot]

i dont think it needs to replace birds, i do think it gets way too much hate, but i do hate the aim of birds now

[keen gulch]

how come

[hearty summit]

summoner getting more summons as its major abilities, as wise said, will always be significantly more thematically interesting

[tepid pivot]

its extra damage

unnecessary dmg, it COULD be mobility, but its just dmg boost, and needed dmg boost since summoner only competes with other dps with it added

[ashen orchid]

+1 Bird should give +10% ws and +1 JH

[tepid pivot]

i think summoner having a pure mobility ability would be way more useful and cooler

[keen gulch]

birds were designed as A) an optional tradeoff for the player between mobility and damage and B) an extra form of micromanaging for the archetype to handle

[tepid pivot]

this means nothing when theyre always sent out for dmg

[ashen orchid]

Just... don't send them out?

[tepid pivot]

there is too much micromanaging in summoning as it is

[orchid arch]

https://tenor.com/view/diagnosis-skill-issue-diagnosis-skill-issue-draker-discord-gif-22231351

[abstract matrix]

i think thats the point of the archetype

[ashen orchid]

it's OPTIONAL extra damage, you don't have to use it

[tepid pivot]

so basically, summoner got a 100kdps nerf for mobility

[hearty summit]

yeah that's good. the class should be hard

[tepid pivot]

thats what im reading

[keen gulch]

if there is one thing i could see changing with birds it is possibly raising the duration

[orchid arch]

I wanted summo to be like pikmin, a archetype that requires micromanagement to be an effective team player with your platoon

[ashen orchid]

EXACTLY that's a good thing

[tepid pivot]

wasnt summoner the braindead tree? its whatever ig but birds are just unnecessary extra

[abstract matrix]

it used to be but it no longer is

[tepid pivot]

👀

[abstract matrix]

well you can still play it completely braindead and get solid dps out of it but you are rewarded for actively managing now

[tepid pivot]

not managing birds, summoner is actually a good mix of fun and hard

[ashen orchid]

it's like Coward vs Lunatic, you get a choice of what to focus on in every moment

[hearty summit]

after playing a bit more lately (took a break cuz aco is cool) i actually can see this being nice because the birds will often take a decent while to attatch to their target again once they leave it

they lose a lot of DPS for like no reason

[tepid pivot]

but birds not only make it so dmg is more mixed, but also its placement is STILL bad imo

[tepid pivot]

ehhh coward does a lot than just walkspeed tho

it changes one of ur spells, so the tradeoff is a lot more different

[ashen orchid]

I feel they should just teleport, since their attack animation already shows them moving significantly faster then they fly

[hearty summit]

i've gotta say this is the first time i've ever seen someone advocate for a class to be less interesting and challenging to use

[tepid pivot]

also mask swapping is just a whole new concept for gameplay

[hearty summit]

real their travel time holds them back from being any good

[orchid arch]

This was like the opposite of what ppl were complaining about before summo got improvements since more ppl wanted more summons, which we got totem as a summon-ish and birds

[ashen orchid]

Coward vs Lunatic is just the same thing as Hummingbird toggles just scaled up

[tepid pivot]

no
coward literally changes an entire spell, and u can also use frog leap (despite it sucking) also lunatic makes u way glassier so this still does not stand

[abstract matrix]

if you think its placement is bad because it requires you to spend 2 more ap for access of triple totem and invg wave (or shepherd)

then have you considered the fact that those nodes are meant to be hard to access

[keen gulch]

but yeah anyway still taking suggestions for the t3 aspect

[tepid pivot]

masks have their major pros and noteworthy cons, birds is just dps or no dps(walkspeed :shock:)

effigy buff 😄

[keen gulch]

just damage is boring and im not sure effigies have much else they can get

[tepid pivot]

whoever disagrees with this is wrong

[orchid arch]

I was split between thinking if effigies could explode as an option if you de-spawn the totem

[abstract matrix]

i was gonna say smth like summon ws and aim precision but that should probably be a new aspect of its own

[keen gulch]

truly not an aspect thing

[hearty summit]

thats a good aspect idea

[orchid arch]

Yeah ur right more of a skill thing

[orchid arch]

Do you think commander is fine to not need something T3 wise

[hearty summit]

it's very difficult tot think of something that wouldn't just be something that should innately be in the tree or abilities lol

[keen gulch]

yep lol

[hearty summit]

commander is incredibly strong as-is imo

[abstract matrix]

maybe longer duration for commander and bird? not too sure, think that may make it less fun idk

[ashen orchid]

Increase Commander damage the lower its duration it is, up to +15%

[keen gulch]

duration imo could be its own aspect

[orchid arch]

Aspect of the Commanding Legion

[keen gulch]

Not an aspect thing

[tepid pivot]

Summoner Discussion i guess

[abstract matrix]

sounds like a major id

[hearty summit]

t3 summoner should make Friendly Fire super op 😎

[ashen orchid]

Invigorating Wave +0.25 Mana per

[keen gulch]

friendly fire needs improvement

[keen gulch]

ew

[hearty summit]

oh wait what if tier 3 allowed you to use commander to also control your effigies by aiming where you were looking

[keen gulch]

Not an aspect thing

[hearty summit]

and they'd get a bonus as well

[hearty summit]

aw dang it

[keen gulch]

aspects modify numbers

[sturdy bear]

Make commander charge faster?

[hearty summit]

i see

[ashen orchid]

Reduce Puppet duration by 15-30s

[hearty summit]

i feel like it already charges insanely quickly lol

[abstract matrix]

why does that remind me of a certain major id

[keen gulch]

i suspect the people would not want this

[hearty summit]

man aspect design is hard!!!!! i no longer blame whoever made bolt and sharp aspect i cant think of shit

[keen gulch]

:>

yea its tough

for bolt & sharp doesnt rly help that the archetypes dont have much to work with

[hearty summit]

real

sharp really got the random bullshit go tree

[abstract matrix]

too bad you cant throw 4.5 totems…

[hearty summit]

me with half of my totem

[ashen orchid]

Increase Invigorating Wave damage buff

[orchid arch]

Id love to think if you hit the puppets with friendly fire and they receive a status effect with this symbol on it 💢

Issue is I’d be unsure what to do else with it out of making them angry by hitting them

[hearty summit]

i feel like the best way to get tier 3 summoner aspect to actually be meaningful is to have effigies become a lot more unique in what they do, be it a debuff on hit or something, and then have the tier 3 aspect buff that

[abstract matrix]

they now damage you instead

truly friendly firing

[orchid arch]

I just know from seeing friendly fire in teamwork games is they get mad and more irratic and more uhh, sweaty

[hearty summit]

cuz in the current state its either meaningless numbers that dont help things because theyre good as is or already have an aspect, or they just dont really follow up on the power that other tier 3 aspects usually have

i mean like maybe you can just give it another bird but that feels boring

[orchid arch]

What if effigies have a strengthened push or even throw enemies closer to totems 🏀

[hearty summit]

🏀

[keen gulch]

can boost their kb

[orchid arch]

Effigies be ballin

[keen gulch]

but not sure how impactful itd be

[abstract matrix]

one of the hardest part about t3 aspect is probably the fact that you cant give it a bigger buff compared to t1 and t2 cuz yknow

[hearty summit]

yeah that doesnt sound very good

[keen gulch]

Fuck it. 0.5 hummingbirds

[orchid arch]

It’ll ensure the purpose of them throwing enemies to totems but make their DPS less

[hearty summit]

honestly effigy knockback is more annoying than anything cuz sometimes i just dont want an enemy to be close to my totems since i am also close to my totems

[tepid pivot]

this is making me realize how like 1 dimensional effigies and puppets are

[keen gulch]

i think puppets are solid w/ commander

[tepid pivot]

they have abilities to make them dynamic somewhat but, they just do damage.

[hearty summit]

effigies i agree, puppets can be fun with commander

[tepid pivot]

they dont have many additional effects, which imo is 1 dimensional

[keen gulch]

effigies... their original design intent was shoving mobs into totem range, but that just isnt all that good

[tepid pivot]

effigies are TOTALLY 1d but puppets are only dymanic due to another ability and its just, more dmg?

[keen gulch]

well

here's kinda the thing

[tepid pivot]

the way they do it is creative i wont lie, but it is just more dmg

[keen gulch]

wynn struggles for unique effects for things

[hearty summit]

especially with so many mobs that would actually benefit from being knocked back having cci 💀

[tepid pivot]

imagine if effigies could cause slowness

instead of fucking UPROOT.

[hearty summit]

would be worthless against most bosses

which is all that would really matter

[tepid pivot]

summoner against bosses is fine but i will say it has its place in nol

[ashen orchid]

That's sort of, every non-movement ability in the game, no?

[tepid pivot]

its room clearing ability is also important what

[hearty summit]

bro u literally have aura

summons are way more single target oriented

[abstract matrix]

this is clearly an issue of every mob and their mother being cci rather than the ability itself

[hearty summit]

none of them have aoe there's just a lot of them

[orchid arch]

I found this skull from a huge summoner suggestion from 2 years ago someone made and I was unsure if this was anything useful or not
Source: ThePurpleEmerald

[tepid pivot]

holy peak

[keen gulch]

this is just extra dps

[tepid pivot]

am i reading pure peak atm?

[orchid arch]

Idk, I’m just spit balling bc I like to see how others look at it

[keen gulch]

its more interesting dps sure

[hearty summit]

if this were on effigies then we mgiht be cooking

[tepid pivot]

is this a good thing? ik we have aura but aura is kinda weak on summoner for clearing ability

[hearty summit]

if effigies had some like, ground slam aoe attack that would be cool

[abstract matrix]

it is NOT weak for clearing

[hearty summit]

how tf is aura weak at clearing what 😭

[tepid pivot]

hello 7k ehp

[ashen orchid]

what if it only applied to puppets you used Friendly Fire on?

[orchid arch]

That could be paired with this, instead of exploding it could be this kind of thing but without the exploding

[tepid pivot]

legit for aoe exploding puppets is more effective

also lex it legit isnt jsut extra dps, its puppet aoe, which is awesome

[lapis ledge]

quad should be better if u use aura but im not entirely sure

[tepid pivot]

ALSO AOE, FIRE

[keen gulch]

do puppets need aoe

[hearty summit]

maybe, relying on effigies to explode is a little goofy tho cuz theyre tied to the totem instead of their own timer

[hearty summit]

definitely not lmfao

[orchid arch]

I meant to use this as a template but for the ground pound AOE not the exploding

[tepid pivot]

man, you guys just hate creativity and unique abilities

[keen gulch]

purple emerald summoner thread was interesting but overly complicated in a lot of ways for my taste

[tepid pivot]

i dont even blame the ct anymore, its the players fault

[hearty summit]

we catching strays out here damn

[orchid arch]

That’s true, it’d require a LOT of time to work w/, as much as I loved the voodoll idea the most

[tepid pivot]

its true dude

[ashen orchid]

No, it it your fault in particular

[hearty summit]

"you guys disagree with fundamentally overpowered abilities, you sure do hate creativity!"

[tepid pivot]

puppet aoe would be so cool and would add to its playstyle rather than just

[abstract matrix]

getting some taste of being ct 🔥

[hearty summit]

the last thing puppets need is aoe 💀

[tepid pivot]

aura aura aura aura, that isnt even summoner thats just shaman. BORING

[ashen orchid]

Lets make the class balanced around single-target do AoE!

[hearty summit]

lmfao

[orchid arch]

https://tenor.com/view/burger-bussin-smoky-barbecue-bacon-buford-from-checkers-gif-21413736

[tepid pivot]

the aoe does not have to be broken

[ashen orchid]

like go play Acolyte brother

[tepid pivot]

is aoe illegal on single targetcentric archetypes?

is shadestepper not a thing? black hole?

[ashen orchid]

it already has Aura and Exploding Puppets

[hearty summit]

summoner doesnt need aoe dude you have fucking AURA 😭

[hearty summit]

black hole

[abstract matrix]

the thing is aoe does exist and i dont really understand why you said aura has low aoe

[sturdy bear]

Black hole ...

[tepid pivot]

exploding puppets have to be specifically built into for them to be worthwhile aoe, and that basically makes commander useless or makes exploding puppets inconsistent

[ashen orchid]

Aura has the most AoE of any ability on any class in the entire game

[abstract matrix]

black hole deals aoe dmg to your teammate’s pc

[tepid pivot]

its an aoe ability

[orchid arch]

Exploding puppet I’d consider like “ small aoe, “ as in there’s AOE but it only is for single targets, but it can hit multiple in rare occasions fo they’re close enough together within the 3 block radius

[hearty summit]

its fucking useless

[tepid pivot]

and backstab isnt just 1 target, it can do aoe, i dont know why the line here is hard to see

[abstract matrix]

SO DOES AURA?

[tepid pivot]

altho black hole sucks cus it bricks ur pc, it in theory has good aoe use

[hearty summit]

like you cant say that summoner's puppets are justified to have aoe and then compare it to the usefulness (or lack thereof) of fucking BLACK HOLE LMFAO

[keen gulch]

can you link this actually i want to look at it again

[tepid pivot]

id like to see summoner specifically have something nice for aoe

[abstract matrix]

aura is really nice for aoe man

just dont spam it and let it reach its max distance

[orchid arch]

To the forum? Sure :D

https://forums.wynncraft.com/threads/friends-on-the-other-side-a-summoner-remake-proposal.310161/

[keen gulch]

ty

[tepid pivot]

so slow.

[orchid arch]

No problemo Lexnt

[hearty summit]

shocking aura + aura speed aspect

[tepid pivot]

i will say aura is rly good aoe with pull, but its a bit far out

[ashen orchid]

Aura spam Summoner is a very common playstyle

[tepid pivot]

2 ability points, summoner is already so ability point intensive

[orchid arch]

Combining shocking aura / aspect it’s rly good, even I use it

[tepid pivot]

do u guys just never use shepherd

[hearty summit]

https://wynnbuilder.github.io/builder/?v=4#9_2SG2SH2SI2SJ2SK2SL2SM2SN0Qd00002200001g00001004fI0z0z0+0+0+0+0-1TzF-1Vd7C0

[abstract matrix]

i do use shepherd

[orchid arch]

I use it in niche situations but never actually in the long run for raids or higher dmg requirement contents

[tepid pivot]

ITS SO NICE

IN 3/4 RAIDS U CAN GET SHEPHERD USAGE COMMONLY

tna is an exception ill give u that BUT DUDE,

[hearty summit]

love the thought process here

"guys summoner has such bad and forced AP dumps"
"I cant believe you guys dont use shepherd!"

[tepid pivot]

also tcc summoner doesnt work but summoner doesnt work so shrug

[tepid pivot]

sorry that i think it has more value than SHCOKING AURA

[hearty summit]

heavy heavy heavy disagree

[tepid pivot]

in MOST raids (tbf half but when effigies work in tcc itll be 3/4)

[ashen orchid]

have you actually played NotG?

[orchid arch]

In TNA if you kill the handless and armless (not often it happens), NOL yeah, TCC (no), NOTG, if you can kill the worm bits and focus more on the obstacles it forms than the actual boss (throwing? )

[tepid pivot]

I MADE THIS SUMMONER BUILD FOR NOTG

[hearty summit]

summoner's value is trumped in notg by acolyte anyways 😭

[abstract matrix]

i mean its just personal preference but like i sincerely dont believe that aura aoe is this bad without shocking aura

i literally use REBOUND TREE for summoner (want blood conn for casual use) and i dont have any issues

[keen gulch]

i dont really like shepherd's current state but it's stuck where it is bc we haven't been able to come up with a more interesting trigger for it

[tepid pivot]

what happened to aura's aoe dude

[keen gulch]

ok we are arguing actually so i guess i'll go for the time being

[orchid arch]

I ain’t ngl, just being chill

[tepid pivot]

Im jsut mad people sleep on shepherd

[ashen orchid]

I see no value being gained from this discussion

[hearty summit]

if shepherd had a better trigger it would be a much better ability yeah

[tepid pivot]

if it had a better trigger, id want it to replace birds

[hearty summit]

but having to land the final hit on a mob just trolls its usage so hard

[keen gulch]

we like birds as red node 3

that's not going to change

[tepid pivot]

but ig as of now its "niche" to u all GOD WHY DO U ALL RIDE BIRDS

[hearty summit]

cuz shepherd is ludicrously lame as a node and doesnt deserve to be red

[orchid arch]

What if the mana from invigorate waves create another thing called: “ Beckoning, “ which if you get enough of it it’ll spawn out a few puppets with the Shepard duration?

[ashen orchid]

because each red node adds a new summon type

[tepid pivot]

BIRDS ARE TOO

[hearty summit]

^

[tepid pivot]

ITS JUST
shift haul
NONE OF U EVEN APPRECIATE THE WS BUFF CUS NONE OF U PICK UP THE WS ABILITY

[tepid pivot]

actually thats a good point

[keen gulch]

shepherd is just kill mob

[ashen orchid]

I always do, stop making baseless assumptions.

[keen gulch]

thats better?

[tepid pivot]

idk man i just hate dmg birds

[orchid arch]

Sorta like mana bank from arcanist but instead of it being mana it’s the invigorative waves (obviously it’ll accommodate multiple totems as intended)

[hearty summit]

like with kill credit?

[tepid pivot]

i love birds as support, u can have them be dmg without them doing dmg

[keen gulch]

what

[tepid pivot]

aka debuffing, but ig thats the job of masks

[hearty summit]

or just in general.

if a mob died within your totem and became a puppet that would be really neat

[orchid arch]

If you kill enough enemies within the totem radius they’ll spawn a puppet(?)

[tepid pivot]

the masks that are horribly balanced and mesh bad with bullwhip

[keen gulch]

im saying shepherds current state (you kill mobs for +puppets) is less interesting than birds

[tepid pivot]

sorrow sorrow sorrow

[hearty summit]

ohhh my bad

[hearty summit]

yeah

[ashen orchid]

Ritualist is reciving a full rework soon™️ according to Terminated

[crimson leaf]

Are Shepard stacks still given on last hit or on the 5% mob kill credit

[keen gulch]

yeah yeah we all hate masks

[tepid pivot]

we are so back

[hearty summit]

p sure its last hit

[tepid pivot]

but like idk man i like each archetype having their own buff debuff ability

[hearty summit]

armour breaker!!! :DDDDD

[tepid pivot]

for acolyte its vengeful totem, id like birds to be the debuff or buff of summoner

[keen gulch]

summoner's in a good state overall anyhow so probably dont expect too much attention on it from the team for a bit
i agree the summoner t3 sucks and would like to change that as soon as there is a good idea

[crimson leaf]

Good thing nature's jolt or whatever gives your uproot a slow 👍

[hearty summit]

wtf that sprite is sick

[tepid pivot]

ws and u send them out quickly for a damage invul application, but its short so u have to manage it kinda harshly

[keen gulch]

there are not really enough interesting debuffs we can use

[tepid pivot]

boss vulnerability, straight up dmg reduction but ig raiders dont care abt that (it would be fire for casuals tho)

[keen gulch]

both of those are boring lol

[tepid pivot]

its way cooler than current birds

[keen gulch]

& applied by other shaman archetypes

[tepid pivot]

u mean haunting?

[keen gulch]

haunting, chants, ecall

actually do any of those do weakness

eh i forget

[tepid pivot]

one does

[ashen orchid]

ECall and Chants

[keen gulch]

call isnt weakness anymore iirc

[ashen orchid]

Vulnerability

[crimson leaf]

Fanatic chant iirc?

[keen gulch]

doesnt matter

[tepid pivot]

ritualist is the debuff buff class but god it does not mix with summoner at all

[ashen orchid]

what does that even mean btw?

[keen gulch]

vulnerable

[tepid pivot]

and ik ritualist rework tm but still birds would be cooler if it gave u ws more consistently but u also got to get a dmg buff from them or a useful debuff from them

[ashen orchid]

what does that effect actually mean, though?

[keen gulch]

im gonna start forwarding this message whenever its relevant

[keen gulch]

+damage dealt to mob

[tepid pivot]

i just said ik ritualist rework but despite that

[keen gulch]

same thing as -resistance effectively

[tepid pivot]

ecall still has a debuff or buff

[ashen orchid]

debuff

[tepid pivot]

thx, anyways why not birds

[ashen orchid]

because it should have its own niche instead of being the same effect twice

and Summoner isn't a team buff archetype, it's a summon buff archetype

[tepid pivot]

itd be way cooler than what we have rn which is just dmg. u micromanage bullwhip and the bird buff (so ur not double dipping) while also getting the ws (and possible jh buff) from birds throughout the raid way more consistently

[ashen orchid]

you are your own team

[tepid pivot]

aka having your cake and eating it too

[hearty summit]

🍰

[tepid pivot]

it can have team buffing or just self buffing properties

self buffing would work aswell, aslong as its a trigger, but team buffing just works better in that regard

it doesnt have to JUST be solo dolo, it can have SOME properties that allow it to help the team

[ashen orchid]

Stagnation

[tepid pivot]

ONE is fine and two would be awesome

[orchid arch]

https://tenor.com/view/pikmin-dancing-grooving-dance-groovy-gif-15609319880128479626

[tepid pivot]

i wish i had a gif for this, but i dont.

[ashen orchid]

Maddening Roots

Regeneration

[tepid pivot]

STOP MENTIONING SLOWNESS IT SUCKS AND IT ADDS TO SUMMONER BLOAT

regen is fair but like ehhhh its p minimal healing

[ashen orchid]

INVIGORATING WAVE, I WIN

[tepid pivot]

OH COME ON

[ashen orchid]

LITERALLY THE BEST TEAM BUFF IN THE GAME

[tepid pivot]

ITS BARELY A BUFF, NOBODY RELIES ON IT AT ALL

still imo thats only ONE buff, two wouldnt be bad per say...

[hearty summit]

erm aqchewully fortitude is better 🤓 ☝️

[orchid arch]

I’ve had cases where my invig waves help keep my team full of mana even if it’s minimal, it ain’t much but it’s honest work

[tepid pivot]

man i justhate current birds

[ashen orchid]

You havne't plated nearly enough Shaman

[tepid pivot]

i have over 1k hrs... 😦

thats enough time i think...

[ashen orchid]

ign

[tepid pivot]

xia_hannii, ive raided enough so heck u

[keen gulch]

fortitude is stupid

[tepid pivot]

wait, whats YOUR name

[tepid pivot]

whats YOUR ign,

[ashen orchid]

you'll never guess

[tepid pivot]

oh its ur discord user

[hearty summit]

bro got 9 shamans wtf 😭

fizi account real

[tepid pivot]

we have similar stats overall bleeehhhh

[ashen orchid]

andI hid it so well

[tepid pivot]

LOL whatever dude

[hearty summit]

quite but also lightbender is p much nothing without it

[ashen orchid]

not true

[agile olive]

whoever this is i think we should be taking their advice on raid balance unoquivocally as it is definitely insanely informed

[orchid arch]

Crud I didn’t realized I completed 2360 raids with shaman

[hearty summit]

this is a great idea

[orchid arch]

This details cool I didn’t know it existed

[tepid pivot]

dude i could tell u everything about every raid excluding nol

[ashen orchid]

You've done as many raids as I've done runs of NotG alone

[tepid pivot]

the raids do not have much much depth

[tepid pivot]

i meant our shaman experience, not overall raid experience

this is ur only shaman account

u have done a lot of notg tho

[ashen orchid]

My one Shaman has more raid experience than your entire profile bro

[keen gulch]

alright ive made my decision, we'll be deleting shaman tomorrow

[orchid arch]

Replace it with the summoner class in fruma

[hearty summit]

good ending

[ashen orchid]

FINALLY

[tepid pivot]

i have more tcc than u on shaman, and more tna

do i have more nol ]]

wow we both do not do nol on shaman

[orchid arch]

Jesus is this how many raids I did

[hearty summit]

omg same

[tepid pivot]

you are the shaman of all time

[orchid arch]

Shamanly

[ashen orchid]

anyways

[tepid pivot]

notg

i also have more tcc than u which is kinda lol

get those numbers up noob

barely more notg too, numbers up i tell u

[ashen orchid]

my TCC buddy went to military academy so I haven't had a reason to run that goofy raid

[hearty summit]

fizi

[tepid pivot]

tbf my tcc numbers are froma while ago

[agile olive]

bladsf?

[ashen orchid]

Cash

[agile olive]

wild coincidence we both had a tcc buddy that went to military academy then lmfao

[ashen orchid]

that's insane man

[tepid pivot]

tcc to military pipeline

[ashen orchid]

TCC to quitting Wynncraft pipeline

Every TCCer I know has quit

or gotten banned for slurs

anyway, buff Charging Flame, bye

[tepid pivot]

atleast we can agree on one thing

[agile olive]

shear :)

[tepid pivot]

alright this thread is useless since people just dont agree with me and there are threads for talking abt ability tree stuff without my input anyway

u cant delete threads?

then fukit

[hearty summit]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/911561413884002315/973195970445738034/image0-59.gif

thank you fizi

[agile olive]

thank you fizi

[tepid pivot]

fyi his friend called me the hard R now hes just here to harass me

[hearty summit]

😂😂😂

[tepid pivot]

is it not true?

[agile olive]

😂 😂 😂

[agile olive]

seems like smth youd do idk

[tepid pivot]

its funny but

[hearty summit]

😶‍🌫️ this callout is gonna get me cancelled!

[tepid pivot]

messed up 😢

[agile olive]

yeah ur done bro there is sweeping and conclusive evidence to support these accusations, best give up while the goings not too tough

[hearty summit]

😥

[still yacht]

watching people playing the victim card is always entertaining

[ashen orchid]

yes you can

I deleted one just this past week because I mistakenly sent it before fully typing out my feedback

unless, maybe someone else sending a message makes it no longer deletable by the poster or something

[sick elm]

I need to try to use Summoner in serious content at some point, like I have done so already but only minimally.

[turbid bison]

They have utility its just that nothing takes knockback

they have this whole ai to push mobs to totems and target priority between other effigies to push the best mob into totems

but a lvl 1 weak zombie can outrun their knockback

[agile olive]

smord uses it in tna and nol a bunch its actually pretty good icl seems fun and its definitely effective

[hearty summit]

😭

[agile olive]

i dont think theres any class thats not at least decent in "serious" content rn (outside bmonk which is honestly shocking lmao) , only massive disparities between the level of "decent" they are

[little yoke]

there are always exceptions to this rule

[turbid bison]

this is your choice lol this is like a perfectly designed trade off isnt it

[little yoke]

but yeah generally you can run anything

acro in TNA is nightmare fuel though

[turbid bison]

it should increase their vision too iirc

[agile olive]

i thouhgt about it and i cant really come up with much, u just need a better build for worse classes in some cases

[hearty summit]

i'll have to test, it didnt feel that different. i will rn

[tepid pivot]

its a very lopsided and bad choice but u shouldnt listen to me, it seems that everyone agrees with your viewpoint

whether or not i agree with it, i think u should do what the masses want

[agile olive]

this guy is like a known ragebaiter on an alt btw wouldnt waste your time with him

[tepid pivot]

ill always argue with these peeps but genuinely as a dev, listen to the majority

[little yoke]

is pure trix that decent? i don't know how good it is as glue or how useful that even is in comparison to taunt pally

[tepid pivot]

im telling him he doesnt need to listen to me and he should listen to you, and you attack me?

whats wrong with u

[agile olive]

i mean its gone in a few weeks so idrk if it matters but yeah shear made a p good nirvana pure trick build that worked in tcc tna and nol, il see if i can find it for u if u wanna try it out b4 it gets beamed

[little yoke]

i’m not interested in trickster at all looks boring as hell but i’ll take your word on it

[tepid pivot]

trickster is like

[agile olive]

real af, it is literally just pre 2.0 assassin with more flash

ide think it used bamboozle like ever

[tepid pivot]

idk i hate how its on assassin, but its pretty bland when its not built as a tank. if it is i love it

tank trickster is a real thing btw im not even kidding. its just that its only good for raid tanking, and raid tanking as a concept is just useless

[little yoke]

i know that

i have run with glue nulli before it was certainly a thing that exists

[tepid pivot]

oh my b for being patronizing then

[tepid pivot]

LOL ur goated, nulli is one of the 2 options and imo the better option to sreggard cus, some damage. barely, but some

[shadow quail]

open summoner discussion

trickster discussion

[little yoke]

back on track though effigies are just so boring

idk what they should do but their niche is bad

esp considering it’s usually easier to just recast totem or drag them back into totem range with aggro yourself

[hearty summit]

@turbid bison i found a bug with the birds when comboed with housing while testing just now

so if you have your birds active and do /housing edit, all is normal until you leave edit mode again.

doing so somehow created a second set of birds. they even stay if you leave housing, but reset if you /class or leave the world. really funny bug

https://medal.tv/games/minecraft/clips/k3sqOJltIIGX19UIv?invite=cr-MSxlcWQsMjcxNzU1MjA4

was in a call sorry if i sound like im talking to the voices

[little yoke]

or storm dance or whatever that thing that causes aura to move them towards your totem is called

[hearty summit]

on top of this testing i can confirm that the vision does not increase with the tier 3 aspect equipped, just the latch-on range

[agile olive]

like term said their niche is actually p cool it synergizes very well with shamans limited area of effect, cci just disables it, im not sure if cci should mean stuff like this is removed cause its honestly a cery cool purpose and stuff like this is not exclusive to shaman either, a cci rework coukd prolly be better

[little yoke]

i actually disagree that the niche is cool since playing around limited range is more interesting than having the summons do it for you with no input

[agile olive]

yeah nice coverup bud

[hearty summit]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/369924551502594048/1135471540465582110/speed-6.gif

[agile olive]

isbt that kinda the point if summoner though that the summons do stuff for you? maybe having them only push things into range when under commander could kill 2 birds with one stone

[hearty summit]

https://medal.tv/games/minecraft/clips/k3syVIycv9XxtkClH?invite=cr-MSxlVG0sMjcxNzU1MjA4 here's what im talking about btw (feat. surprise bird dupe tech)

each wood block represents 8 blocks

[agile olive]

holy shit infinite birds??? in this economy???

[hearty summit]

it can only dupe once

no infinite bird hack

[little yoke]

esp since shaman is glassy with its base res and stuff and all the benefits are usually restricted to totem range or aura range

i would say thats the point but managing summon aggro and applying summon support spells to bolster them is more of what i would expect from a summoner class than something that’s so innately uninteresting and not interactive

[tepid pivot]

i never understood why shaman was so glassy ngl

itll always baffle me archer has more base defense

[little yoke]

i would say that keeping sustained cooldowns and buffs up with constant damage from minions is more of a concrete identity then “the summons play the game for you”

[tepid pivot]

ngl man ive just not been having fun w summoner

maybe if i do exploding puppet spam hadal ill have some fun, but other than that its not fun for me, so sadge

acolyte is a bunch of fun tho so idm :3

[agile olive]

yeah maybe i wasnt clear, id wsnt them to eventually be able to actually bring stuff to you in endgame but only when under commanders effect, when not theyre just a melee mob

[sturdy bear]

It's flashier but feels so much slower 😭

[little yoke]

i still think that’s less cool than the summoner itself having to deal with aggro and not just shutting down mobs to be within totem range but that’s just my opinion

[agile olive]

i think cci has rhe effect of firstly homogenizing alot of playstyle feedback but secondly is a justifixation for insanely op cc

like the fact a random ass assasin bracelet can apply infinite stun is absurd

[turbid bison]

I think it makes sense effigies do this they have big hands for pushing and are melee

[agile olive]

LOL this is the best justification for it icl

[turbid bison]

But yeah knock back in particular is just a bit weird

They do have big hands though

They are like 50% hand

[little yoke]

it makes sense but i don’t know that i love that they’re not interactive

[turbid bison]

How are puppets more interactive

[little yoke]

there’s 0 micro that you have to do with effigies unlike puppets with commander and toggling birds and manually auraing

[agile olive]

do effigies not respind to commander?

[turbid bison]

Lol ngl I forget commander exists now

[little yoke]

a lot of them time it is just set it and forget it but at least it’s something

[sturdy bear]

Commander is only puppets

[hearty summit]

only bullwhip changes their targetting

[agile olive]

gg confused it w/ invig working on everything

[turbid bison]

No commander is just puppets since it's a lot about projectile accuracy and speed

[agile olive]

ok yeah so bullwhipping a mob should allow ffigies to drag it to your totems, otherwise they just hit them normally

[turbid bison]

I forget all the abilities that I made exists it's crazy I did tna on summoner yesterday and didn't use commander the whole raid

Well if you bullwhip something I think all effigies do target them and will knock them to the totem

I could be wrong but I think that's what they would do

[little yoke]

no but that’s a way to make them more interactive is the point — currently like sure you can bullwhip for aggro but you kinda just don’t have to do that against raid bosses and against fodder mobs idk if there’s one strong enough to warrant that

my point was just that summoner is fun because of how many things you should have to micro-optimize without being overbearing input wise — it’s similar to why i like acolyte it’s not that button mashy unlike a lot of other archs and still feels satisfying

[turbid bison]

Effigies push mobs whenever they attack them, effigies respect bullwhip targeting so I'm pretty sure if you bullwhip something they will all push it together

[little yoke]

unless you’re on pz auraspam that is ❤️‍🔥

[hearty summit]

yeah this is what they do, just hard to notice with how prevalent CCI is on any mob with an amount of HP that wont kill it instantly

[agile olive]

yeah but right now they either always drag stuff, or never do because of cci, in a theoreticaly world where cci is changed to allow classes to actually work as designed against mobs more important than an ant, a cool way of making their cc more balanced would be to only have them pull when under the effect of bullwhip, would allow more user input and deliberation while also limiting how strong the cc could get

[ancient lion]

One thing that annoys me in summoner is invigorating wave buff cannot be refreshed until it ends, it's just so annoying when you mistime the ability

[little yoke]

yeah i think citied was talking about a hypothetical where the effigies don’t push things unless they are whipped and cci does not exist in its current state

[hearty summit]

the CCI makes the push either does nothing or only affects mobs that are way too weak to actually gain any benefit of pushing them

[turbid bison]

Ooh yeah I get it

Yeah it's a good change but requires us to look at knockback first

[little yoke]

yeah that’s a huge undertaking ngl

[turbid bison]

It's a bit of a mess internally too

Just because things don't all deal knockback in the same way

[agile olive]

yeah 😭 cci has like years and years of design debt to pay off so i dont expect it to be changed anytime soon

[little yoke]

multihit permastunning small mobs in the air ❤️‍🔥❤️‍🔥❤️‍🔥

[agile olive]

whoever added enclosure to 1.19 shaman is literally the time traveler that kicked the rock though

if that hadnt happeend maybe cc in wynn would be way more robust today

[sturdy bear]

That shit was so funny LOL

[turbid bison]

We could try increasing the knockback they do but yeah anything that they don't kill quickly probably has immunity

Which is just a roadblock to them being useful for this function

[little yoke]

meteor knock back is awful for the game as well

[agile olive]

a good year and a half of literally just shutting the entire game off 😭, also the reason why shaman has base res of paper unironically enclosure is long dead and it is still my #1 opp

[little yoke]

curious that upperscream fallen also happens to use two giant knockback spells

[sturdy bear]

Doesn't war scream also launch things up or am I thinking of the wrong spell

[stable crescent]

Yes u are right

[hearty summit]

makes mobs ping pong balls

[agile olive]

upperscream is like exclusively good in raids, anything outside raids (EO bosses, LI, world events) doesnt spam cci and therefore will just fly in the air outside the reach of your spells the second you start hitting it

[sturdy bear]

I love not being able to hit anything 🔥

[sturdy bear]

Yea I used to lootrun on upperscream and things just can't hit u bc u just send them flying 😭

[agile olive]

its so aweful cause not only does it prevent you from hitting stuff but its also like an infinitely chaining cc that prevents anything from touching you, manages to be brutally op and also the most unsatisfying thing ever

[stable crescent]

Hmelee archer vs upperscream

[little yoke]

good ol' old blade fury making the game unplayable for everyone to get acro BROKEN 200k dps

most asshole addition to a node ever icl

[sturdy bear]

The pfinder acro dropping mat catalyst on people like it's a hydrogen bomb

[agile olive]

LMFAO

[stable crescent]

Wybel paw acrobat in tna 😁 (pre armless change)

[sturdy bear]

Mat catalyst was such a menace and it's even worse u can't backstab him so I'm just in pain 😭

[little yoke]

NEW META SREGGAD BLADE FURY HYPERDRAG ELEVATOR STRAT

[turbid bison]

Pretty sure you can now

[stable crescent]

Was thinking of being able to drop armless on ppl and kill them

[sturdy bear]

No u still can't 😭

[turbid bison]

We fixed all the non backstabbable things (unless they are invisible mobs)

[little yoke]

aint no way

[turbid bison]

Invisible mobs can't be backstabbed

[sturdy bear]

There's also still tna mobs u can't backstab

[agile olive]

u mean like it doesnt work or hes airborne the whole damn time

[stable crescent]

Real

[sturdy bear]

Backstab doesn't proc so it does 1/2 dmg and I can't proc siphon

[agile olive]

ok so both gg

[little yoke]

OOPS! All Frontshots

[stable crescent]

Minokawas grasp

!!

[still yacht]

just use the new op bracelet

perma blindness

[candid lichen]

(I have hopefully gotten better at this)

I do like the look of my Paladin rework

[wintry saffron]

can you redirect me to that thread?

[candid lichen]

What thread

[wintry saffron]

your summoner thread

[candid lichen]

https://forums.wynncraft.com/threads/friends-on-the-other-side-a-summoner-remake-proposal.310161/

[wintry saffron]

Thanks

[candid lichen]

It’s old so a bunch of stuff seems kinda not up to standards

At least for me specifically

I’m still reworking archetypes and have gotten more experienced at it (somewhat)

[orchid arch]

4 birds T3 aspect real-

[hearty summit]

p sure it's 6

cuz my damage on them straight doubled too

[orchid arch]

okay so just hug wall and get 6 birds