#9/10 BMonks approve this post

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

dense moth
severe jacinth
reef atlas
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true and real

ember nymph
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brilliantknight banned from wynnmain?

gritty elm
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responding to the actual feedback:
They definitely missed the point of the countless discussions about flying kick if their only comment is to say "why should it be a mandatory ability, it does no damage"

I think everyone knows that monk lacks a lot of identity and I dont know if some of the ideas presented may be cool or not! That said I dont think the final red node being a buffed discombobulate really solves anything

mental crystal
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he may have had an eccentric typing scheme but the ideas he brought to the table were generally ok

median spoke
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Make Monk the Spell Spam Archetype its supposed to be. Like why is Generalist such a useless node to some Monk Playstyles? Why is Whirl Wind a red node and isnt even used half of the time while playing monk. Why is Flying Kick Well there. I could go on forever. Monk needs something to make it viable while standing alone as an Archetype. Maybe make Whirl Wind the same as it was before because the meta changed and it may fit in now. Rework Discomb into a cool ability which lets you pray for 5 seconds in which you buff yourself and heal yourself so that Monk plays more into the monk Part. Make Generalist give Monk a 10% damage Buff for the Spell it is used on. There are like a Ton of options for Monk. And add a way other then generalist for Monk to get some mana.

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Btw I am a shit ability Designer so idk

reef atlas
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Isn't that what Terminated just said? We are aware Battlemonk as a whole isn't in a great spot designwise and it needs some more big picture changes

severe jacinth
smoky marlin
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palamonk is the go to hunted tree though

smoky rose
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Apart from the lack of damage / nodes that don't have much purpose, are there any other major problems with bmonk atm?

smoky marlin
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it's so aspect dependant

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t2 bmonk makes one hell of a difference

reef atlas
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battlemonk's current kit most favours spamming spells that hit fast

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which... is what almost all spell archetypes are already doing naturally

smoky rose
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How would you find it if Bmonk shifted to a more single target focused playstyle?

reef atlas
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Idk i'm no AT

tame widget
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battle monk identity should be tied to its red nodes, one is skippable, the other is spam spells, and the third is disable uppercut

smoky rose
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Would it be better or worse in your opinion

reef atlas
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I think the interesting thing battlemonk could try to hone itself in on is specific spell combos

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like that you'd have abilities that work on casting spells in a specific order for a big effect or something

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generalist would make super sense as a first red to that kind of gameplay

smoky rose
reef atlas
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and it would definitely be different to what other spell spam is doing where it's mostly cycling your third spell and using 1st or 4th every X spells to reset spell penalty

violet sage
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the Forlorn Pursuit weapon also has a really cool majorID, giving the spells on which Generalist is triggered stronger effects, and this idea could be included in the Bmonk tree itself

median spoke
indigo onyx
# reef atlas battlemonk just doesn't really have any identity to stand on

battlemonks has an identity it just fails at executing it imo, it is a hyper mobile cc and aoe machine with death by a thousand cuts and combo mechanics, the issue is that its kit is designed quite sloppily and has a bunch of things that all contribute to the same goal but dont actually gel at all

reef atlas
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those are 4 mechanics that don't inherently are a package deal

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the point is that battlemonk does so many different things it doesn't have a central identity that is present strong enough

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you can quite honestly argue every single red ability of battlemonk serves a different goal

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with quite literally no cohesion

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at any rate battlemonk isn't my area of expertise

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but i think at any rate we'd agree battlemonk can't be made more interesting to play without a look at its whole tree

indigo onyx
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gens idea is good, whirlwind is great as is, maybe discomb could get axed for something more thematically fitting and bmonk could just lose the multi hit gimmick but its not that wild either

reef atlas
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i am not saying bmonk mobility needs to be redone

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bmonk mobility is honestly the more fine aspect of it

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discomb just is fundamentally uninteresting and the only thing barely propping it up right now

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because yeah surfing with whirlwind is cool but bmonk does not have combat abilities to make it work besides discomb

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bmonk's way of how it does damage just kinda needs to be... made?

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Because so far it just doesn't have anything except "your abilities tick fast so your final ability can be a damage boost"

indigo onyx
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this i can agree on yeah if they want to axe discomb and add like a momentum or combo building mechanic for a damage multiplier that would be very cool, i also think the multi hit thing is kinda incidental youre right

reef atlas
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i think people use so wildly different terminology with combo here

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like being realistic generalist does not help discomb because discomb is built by war scream and thunder clap

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it also does not help whirlwind, it just has no interaction

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and whirlwind added no extra hits has no interaction with discomb

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literally all 3 red abilities of battlemonk do not care about each other

indigo onyx
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by combo i mean something like a dmc style meter where hitting enemies and doing tricks rewards you in different ways, alternatively it could also be more literal w/ combo meaning multiple hits on the same enemy build damage but only in specific ways etc

tame widget
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whirlwind is clunky, it stops all horizontal momentum

indigo onyx
reef atlas
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as i've said previously, i think discomb has no future

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whirlwind is cool but kinda just... not really material for a red ability?

indigo onyx
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you can try it right now, go on bmonk, charge once, then coast just off whirlwind

tame widget
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??? last time i charged and casted whirlwind it just stops horizontal momentum, unless i used aerodynamics

reef atlas
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the fact people geniuenely do not take aero on battlemonk is insane and should not be real

tame widget
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even with aerodynamics its because the node pushes you constantly

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switch aero and flying kick fr fr

reef atlas
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I feel like a good possible future for bmonk could look like keeping its current movement pretty much the same

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and then giving it an actual combat side that revolves around using all of your spells in specific orders to create combos of spells that cause extra effects

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Spell archetype, super fun mobility, breaks away from the monotony of current optimal spell cycles

tame widget
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spells could receive extra effects depending on the last spell you cast, so you have to do a nonstandard cycle

indigo onyx
# reef atlas I feel like a good possible future for bmonk could look like keeping its current...

it would need to be able to fall into a proper cycle i think, whirlwind is great when it works but its very difficult to control and does crap out at times, flying kick just needs to be removed stopping your momentum is the ultimate troll on a class thats main movement in combat comes from momentum inheritance, and overall charge just gives absolutely nothing for casting it, so bmonk deals even less dps than a typical low damage class cause 33% of its cycle is dead weight.

reef atlas
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does axe kick change your momentum???

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it only is supposed to add damage for +mana cost tmk

tame widget
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it shouldnt

indigo onyx
tame widget
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i already did a few bmonk suggestions/seen a bunch of bmonk rework ideas

fresh apex
tame widget
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one of them was that flying kick should instead use the enemy as a ramp to gain airtime and still be moving

indigo onyx
tame widget
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instead base charge should be nerfed

reef atlas
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clearly this is a sign from god to reduce charge momentum by 95%

tame widget
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to make aero more appealing, also charge is still one of the best movement tools

fresh apex
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you can play screamsurf w/o aero if you mainly hold a/d to turn and s to throttle velocity to controllable levels

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you can also look slightly down to remove velocity as well, so it's really controllable without aero

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the only issue is whirlwind strike removing momentum if you dont take aerodynamics

tame widget
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which shouldnt be a thing :(

fresh apex
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whirlwind strike is cool, but is in a weird spot where it is incompatible with a lot of raid boss attacks

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orphion orbs are at the perfect height to burn your head off if you whirlwind strike once, whirlwind strike is useless in tcc, greg can reach you with his melee attack even if you whirlwind strike twice

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it's pretty ok in notg though to avoid like 99% of worm attacks

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in most cases, the flight and height gain is detrimental to bmonk gameplay

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youre forced to play close to the ground to avoid anti air attacks, but also forced to dodge ground attacks at the same time

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and for projectile attacks that originate at a higher y-level, you have less time to react than grounded classes, such as greg's seed bombs

indigo onyx
# tame widget instead base charge should be nerfed

besides making warrior feel worse to play idk what this accomplishes, the fixes trajectory already makes charge unusable for combat except as a gap closer, and the inability to stop your momentum already provides an inherent risk

tame widget
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you can stop your momentum tho, by shifting. and every movement spell has a fixed trajectory

fresh apex
stone swan
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i think aerodynamics should triple charge velocity

indigo onyx
shadow flicker
fresh apex
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another issue with whirlwind strike is that gaining too much height can put your target out of range of your attacks, which makes it more difficult to take advantage of dps windows (cant cast uppercut in quick succession without shift casting -> more mechanically demanding, especially in a generalist cycle)

indigo onyx
safe flower
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I'm in optional kick camp
It can be useful but it can also be detrimental

sweet prawn
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it was alright at start
But now i think a archetype shouldn’t be able to skip its “first red ability” at least

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the whole arch lays many problems

dense moth
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Honestly, I personally don’t see “Monk” in BMonk

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Yes, and a spearman too

eternal escarp
eternal escarp
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I've given a lot of feedback on battlemonk, but I make a dedicated bmonk thread which doesn't hyper focus on one thing in particular but the entirety of bmonk depending on the next patches end up like

sweet star
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Стратегист вайвайо вы че творите

digital birch
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My personal takes on bmonk‘s trees and nodes:

  1. I 100% agree that Generalist is in a weird spot and issues already start with it being skippable. (First) red nodes are supposed to be incredibly archetype defining(cf Focus, Sacrificial Shrine, Ophanim, Corrupted, etc). And Generalist for bmonk is optional, in fact very easily skippable even. So I personally only see 2 solutions here:
  1. Make Generalist mandatory and then add abilities and QoL(a visual or audio representation) building on its fantasy to it to make it easier to use.
  2. Make it a blue node and optional, and add a new spell combo node. Cause rn all Generalist does is reduce your third spell‘s mana to 1, so it may as well get treated like Manachism that helps towards the archetype‘s fantasy but does not majorly define it like a red node.
  1. Bmonk has some weak and/or useless nodes. This includes nodes such as Cyclone, Collide, technically even Flying Kick. None of these nodes have to necessarily go, but they are just underwhelming or straight up permanently skipped right now(Collide) and may need a complete rethinking on what they are supposed to contribute. I am actually not in the camp of removing Flying Kick or making it optional, I am simply asking for it to make sense within the kit and be synergistic, while not feeling completely clunky to use. Maybe it shouldnt stop momentum in the air, maybe it should just be way stronger than it is right now, those are answers only CT can figure out with testing honestly.
honest kelp
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why not make flying kick cause mobs that collide with you to fly backwards and send you forward like a normal charge

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that way its like you're vaulting off of the mob

digital birch
stiff berry
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Flying kick isnt even a real nerf its just slightly annoying sometimes

dense moth
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Fkick do it always

digital birch
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  1. Whirlwind strike. Where to begin. Like some people already correctly memtioned, Bmonk‘s 3 red nodes currently exist in a vacuum and dont actually interact or even synergise with each other. Discomb is many quick attacks, Whirlwind is aoe movement and Generalist is medium-pace, controlled spell casting. Whirlwind interrupts your quick spell casting for Discomb(cant really run UpperScream as bmonk for example) and doesnt interact with Generalist whatsoever. So there seem to be the following solutions for me:

  1. Make Whirlwind optional blue node/Make the Launching Up part of it be an optional 1AP node.

  2. Keep it as second red node, but separate it as an own damage tick(like fireworks/comet) when triggered with Generalist. The Launching Up could still be triggering every time you use Uppercut.

  3. Change the ability to become Bmonk‘s (more) single-target focused attack. Right now bmonk literally has 3 circle aoe spells that kind of all want to do the same thing: hit everything around you. So I propose that, instead of whirlwind being circle aoe, it should be a focused, high damage strike in a much smaller hitbox than right now. Right now, Bash and Uppercut compete for the circle aoe damage, meaning one of which will always be more optimal to use, throwing the other out of the casting rotation. Making Uppercut be much smaller hitbox but higher damage creates a unique purpose useful vs singular targets, such as Bosses. Does this aoe change conflict with half-moon strike? Absolutely, hence whirlwind strike becoming its own damage tick would contribute a huge amount in improving its design/coolness.

  4. and 3. essentially build on each other and could be done together honestly, I‘m just giving my ideas on how to make it synergise with other abilities(Generalist, Sacred Surge etc)

sweet star
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who is the 10th bmonk

smoky rose
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-# :3

sweet star
gritty elm
torn needle
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making the final red node something cool and not just numbers is the first step towards removing flying kick, heard it here for the 50th time first, folks saltroll

lunar ginkgo
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discombobulate gotta be the best trap node in existence I'll take a mana printer (bpact) over that any day of the week

smoky rose
magic torrent
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BMonk what archetype in 2.1???

digital birch
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  1. Discombobula raza. Discomb is in the weirdest position ever honestly. On the one hand, it‘s currently the only thing besides air shout holding this archetype together. It also accounts for 40-50% of the archetype‘s damage dealt(depending on aspect tier), and the stacking mechanic in itself is lowkey fun.
    But thats kinda where it ends. Discomb as a whole is a boring design, because there are no ways to spend it and it also stacks imo way too fast. It forces rainbow weapons if you want to optimise it, and as a whole is not really archetype defining. It doesnt contribute to neither Generalist or Whirlwind Strike and feels more like a bandaid node, providing the archetype with no identity a generic damage buff you could also slap on fallen, boltslinger, even riftwalker. CT has previously been talking about demoting/removing it. Imo, it‘s a bit dangerous to completely remove it considering it carries the archetype‘s damage output a lot. But demoting it and adding synergy with Generalist could definitely be an option. Whats certain is that at least 1, if not 2, red nodes are going to have to be reworked for bmonk in order for it to make sense again
dense moth
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me: buff or slap?
ct: slap

lavish galleon
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I just want them to at least fix flying kick bug

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It's already a negative qol, but rn it's absolute disastrous

digital birch
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me having to explain to my homies that I cannot reach Annihilation healers on the sides as the most mobile archetype:

lunar ginkgo
digital birch
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I mean yeah changing it to straight up 1200 adaptive raw damage would be temporarily better

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but it might get tweaked or yeeted down the road anyway so gotta see

lunar ginkgo
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it has to do something else other than a flat damage boost

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at low levels discomb is pretty cracked but later on its just bleugh

eternal escarp
digital birch
languid wadi
digital birch
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weird you do know the term stack exists out of minecraft right? Else just replace the word with layer

languid wadi
severe jacinth
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Though that should be clarified with better wording, even if it's not technically ambiguous, it's easily misinterpreted.

digital birch
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honestly you can just cut out stack and say „each of which“

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should definitely help with clarity

severe jacinth
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"each Endless Strike makes your attacks deal bonus damage..."

languid wadi
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That sounds way clearer

digital birch
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my point was you can keep the concept of discomb but add more to it + make it scale better for endgame

languid wadi
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I think the idea is cool

digital birch
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besides it is really weird to begin with that a stacking/resource mechanic is introduced as third red node. Even sacred surge is second and immediately followed by multiple ideas building on it

harsh whale
wise yoke
reef atlas
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the more i see this the more the actual solution being a charge nerf is actually not seeming unreasonable

digital birch
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Wait whats wrong with Charge again

indigo onyx
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i am horrified that were discussing how bad bmonk is and unironically talking about nerfing warriors basic charge icl

digital birch
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Dont think its an issue of charge being op but moreso Aero being partially underwhelming

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Besides if Aero is so archetype defining, why is it not blue.

tame widget
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flying kick is blue yet aero is purple

digital birch
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I mean aero should remain optional considering people like having and not having it at the same time. Forcing it without any reasonable improvement just makes people unhappy

severe jacinth
reef atlas
reef atlas
digital birch
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I mean with the current layout its impossible for every bmonk ability to be mandatory anyway since the way down is really thin

reef atlas
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well generally we'd want an archetype to work with its own nodes well

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so that we don't need to put a gun down player's neck to actually play the archetypew

digital birch
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I 100% agree with that which is why I prefer reworking flying kick over making it optional

reef atlas
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battlemonk just hasn't really seen changes to the core archetype besides fixes

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battlemonk right is kind of a melting mess of too many ideas that don't work with each other

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or not as well as they should

digital birch
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Not only that but its own red nodes do not work or synergise with each other

reef atlas
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battlemonk has a damage problem of being too weak to some extent but even more fundamentally it just doesn't offer a cohesive idea that makes players want to unlock core archetype abilities

reef atlas
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Generalist, Whirlwind Strike and Discombobulate are literally strangers in the street

digital birch
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Like Whirlwind is an uppercut upgrade that in its current form might as well be blue just like thunderclap

reef atlas
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i think a new bmonk could build off a (reworked?) Generalist as a necessary first red node

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send discombobulate to hell, it's just kinda uninteresting

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and demote whirlwind to a blue node

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and then use the opened opportunities to build an actual archetype

digital birch
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You could certainly cook a lot with having 3 „new“ red nodes

reef atlas
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though this is much easier said than done

digital birch
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well first gotta agree on what the archetype is finally supposed to do considering old and new nodes, then keep what works and replace what doesnt

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building site from lvl 1 to 105+

lunar ginkgo
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When uppersurf was the peak meta

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Then players (fairly) thought at the time whirlwind was so good that it got promoted to a red node up until uppercut became no longer instant and became immediately trash (meta wise) afterwards

upbeat cargo
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crap i replied i didn't mean for that to be a reply (fixed it👇 )

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oh no Kawaiigriffith has dropped himself in another thread to give his random word vomit opinion bc he doesn't know how to structure a paragrah, even on an archetype he never played, anyways...

imo for a bmonk change somehow make generalist the core of the class and rework discom to be heavily related to generalist and/or buffing generalist somehow, so the first and last red nodes have some form of circular reasoning. Some of yall have heard that circular reasoning is bad but only in arguments, for game design its great, acrobat's first unique ability is stomp, and swan dive/jasmine explosion fulfilling stomp makes it feel ROUNDED, same with fallen, bloodlust rewarding ending corrupted creates circular reasoning within the playstyle.

TDLR: generalist and discomb should have circular reasoning with eachother, making battle monk rounded out before any depth is to be added.

low idol
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Not sure if anyone mentioned this (I’m not reading every comment here). But the real problem with battle monk is that Fallen exists

Discombobulate is pretty good on rainbow builds (and if you don’t like it or if it isn’t good enough for you, just don’t take it).

Flying kick is a bit of a stinger, but it needs like 1 change to fix every problem with it (oh yeah and collide can just be thrown away)

Counter is only good in agi builds

But all of these tiny problems aren’t as big as the fact that Fallen does everything better than battle monk (damage and surviving)

Oh, and I hate that battle monk relies on Rally to survive. Fallen does as well, but less.

Edit: forgot to mention that I feel like battle monk is kept in a meh state because fallen is so broken. Not sure if this is the case, but fallen monk is already pretty decent

digital birch
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I dislike counter as well and hope it gets a more active rework than how it currently works. Also might have to remove the agility requirement for it to trigger.

Could honestly just change it so it gives you a layer of bonus damage for the next (generalist?) spell every 1-2s of being nearby enemies

digital birch
# low idol Not sure if anyone mentioned this (I’m not reading every comment here). But the ...

I feel like right now both things are true: Fallen is really strong and battlemonk is really weak. So naturally, as of now, every non-paladin player that wants to deal damage goes Fallen with some Battlemonk nodes.

Battlemonk is supposed to be this very mobile, stable dps archetype that doesnt have to sacrifice anything besides being near enemies all the time. Fallen being „tankier“ derives from it using Rally and also paladin‘s mantles, both of which Battlemonk can also access. But Fallen does have internal healing after Corrupted while Battlemonk doesnt really have any „sustain and survive in close combat“ nodes besides literally Counter. Well and damage-wise the entire kit is too weak and only air shout, discomb and maybe tempest provide damage

safe flower
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I can read one wall of text but not 3 in a row

digital birch
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take 1 per hour, you‘ll be through the thread by the end of the week

eternal escarp
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there is a 1/10 bmonk out there who will find brilliant and turn him into a femboy to make sure bmonk remains bad

digital birch
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I remember telling him in dms, when asked about bmonk, that I dont think flying kick should be optional. Maybe I am the 10th guy he means

eternal escarp
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you are him pal

zenith ravine
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As long as discombobulate keeps its melee damage I'm fine

sweet star
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a

sweet star
zenith ravine
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Although I don't get why y'all hate flying kick so much. It's quite easy to fly above mobs. If you still hit somehow hit mobs that's just skill issue

stiff berry
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Yes its easy to avoid mobs but ocasionally you hit one in a cave and its just annoying

eternal escarp
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not real bmonk, they say they are a paladin main.

digital birch
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hm basically halts your movement and doesnt deal much damage so rn charging through an enemy would be better qol

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its useful in tcc to get bounced back on the platform at least

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I think what people want is for it to have some real purpose thar justifies the situational annoyance it can bring. Collide is a dead node, and flying kick doesnt provide much in the entire kit

lavish galleon
harsh whale
foggy hill
digital birch
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the more I think about flying kick the more I think it should be a mega attack/finisher move

zenith ravine
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Lee sin's ultimate perchance?

digital birch
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pretty much what its supposed to do yeah

foggy hill
digital birch
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it‘d be cool to mark an enemy hit by flying kick to then charge at them again when using charge

sweet star
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flying kick should become a suicide bomber

smoky rose
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-# That was a joke. I do want bmonk to be reworked though but, I honestly would like to see fkick being turned into something useful instead of being completely removed

sweet star
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Damn my discord really did bug out yesterday

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I replied to two people like an idiot 😭

glass vine
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@reef atlas late response on my end, but I think it pretty much summarizes what players are asking for at the moment

reef atlas
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uhh i forgot about this thread so not sure what this ping is about

glass vine
reef atlas
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well i'm the least person to talk to about that

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i don't do numbers, like pretty much ever

glass vine
# reef atlas i don't do numbers, like pretty much ever

Oh no, sorry, I'm not asking you to enact the change, I wanted to get your opinion on what you think about it? Cause there is a genuine argument to be had that "we shouldn't bandaid a DPS fix just so we can remove it later on and make the players angry", or other concerns I'm not aware of

reef atlas
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this is true

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i believe the acrobat bandaid was mostly fine cuz the fix was actively being worked on

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whereas battlemonk is still kind of pretty deep in the oven on what's gonna happen with it

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so it might set some wrong expectations to just go battlemonk is lame, have damage for now

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but again idk, i'm not too into the politics of how to effectively manage people's feelings about numbers

digital birch
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the issue with „double the ratios until rework!“ is that when the abilities actually come out of the oven, you have this additional layer of balancing them again right after just having increased then

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honestly from my perspective its easier to play bmonk knowing there are significant changes cooking in the oven for it, sure I‘d prefer 200k dps over 150k rn but anything that slows down the process of reworking it kinda just feels eh to me, maybe this is a weird take idk

lavish galleon
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I don't care about the numbers I just want to charge without the fk bug in world events 😭

digital birch