Make meteor/ophanim give winded with breathless

[shadow lichen]

Uh
You melee?

With lb anyways
So uh
You can just get closer?

[pure quiver]

Post was mostly about making meteor build winded

[supple fjord]

post is still open, wrong delete button

[crimson tinsel]

Why do you want this to be a thing? This would just make ice snake have even less of a reason to exist

[daring river]

even more meteor centric mage 😂

[crimson tinsel]

I think it is very intentional that meteor doesn't build winded

[tawdry sapphire]

the mono-spell class becomes even more mono-spell

[mint marsh]

tbh it would be a nice qol change for the time being, wouldnt change anything for lb or riftwalker since they already build winded at max efficiency just by doing their normal spell cycles but for arcanist it would be really nice to avoid that like 5 second dead period of just meleeing at the start of a boss to get your 10 winded, not a permenant fix by any means to the bigger issues but if its easy to implement it would be super appreciated by arcanist players speaking as one

[cinder raven]

I think every ophanim hit should apply one winded this is a balanced and unbiased opinion

[pastel beacon]

me when I wanna break the game even more

[mint marsh]

winded is coded to build at a fixed rate it rlly wouldnt do much to add this

[daring river]

no it wouldnt be a good qol change it would be completely busted

rift-canist does not need any kind of help to be even stronger lmfao

[mint marsh]

am i missing something? the only "completely busted" things i see riftcanist doing are when it has a 2nd player with fortitude and 30winded to play off, in which case you stacking winded doesnt matter at all.

10 winded arcanist played by itself is not doing anything crazy rn, in phased bosses like greg or orphion by the time you get 10 winded the phase is half over and you will lose half of it waiting out the scripted event, the deadtime is a really big problem holding rc back as a strong class in higher echelons of play whereas in casual a change like this doesnt change much since the boss will be around long enough the damage you gain from not having to stack winded with melee isnt as big a jump since its averaged over a long period of it

while were on the topic i will also say most arca players ive spoken to myself included really dont like having such a large portion of our power budget taken up by the winded mechanic, 30 winded synergy is really cool and i hope that some essence of it is preserved in the future RW rework but the meleeing to do more damage at the start of every fight just feels really slow and lame, id graciously take like a 10% damage hit just to not have to do that anymore

[signal thunder]

"i would like to take a 10% dmg hit in order to do 60% more dmg at 10 winded which i would get for free with zero drawbacks if meteor gave winded"

[abstract wave]

well this just goes against the whole design of rift is the problem

you're supposed to build winded with your shitty melee and shitty ice snake and the time investement of you using your shit spells for multiple seconds is rewarded by your meteor (and i guess tp) being giga powerful

[signal thunder]

oh yeah i forgot the "and invalidate the entire point of rift"

[abstract wave]

btw the meteor scales with winded node is purple while the tp scales with winded node is blue 💀

[mint marsh]

ok gg i thought it was 30% total damage buff yeah lowk would cut it in half point still stands also the drawback is investing in RW tree

[signal thunder]

oh no i have to give up on slight mana sustain on the archetype that prints mana...

[mint marsh]

that really doesnt sound as stupid as youre trying to make it lowk

[signal thunder]

ok you give up cheaper meteor and manastorm sure

in return you get winded

and you're on an archetype that already gives you like 30 mana per meteor

[ashen steeple]

Yes please I don’t want to use my melee or 5k ice snake that doesn’t slow anything anymore
I just want to spam meteor cause it’s cool

[mint marsh]

yeah this is a really big problem with the mage tree, nothing is worth taking over winded anywhere and everything can take winded also everything sucks without winded cause its balanced around taking winded

that being said were really not getting at the issue of meteor building winded just not being that big a deal, its a change similar to nck aspect not requiring 2 stacking cycles

[abstract wave]

sir we have an archetype for that already it's called arcanist

[signal thunder]

the thing about riftcanist

you are trading sustain and immediate damage (by meleeing instead of casting meteor) for damage buildup later
if winded was built up on meteor you're only trading sustain, which as stated previously is not an issue on arcanist

[ashen steeple]

I don’t want carpal tunnel and want heal

[mint marsh]

arcanist doesnt do good damage without winded for the aforementioned reason, the ppl asking about it in this thread are basically just saying they dont like riftwalkers polarizing presence in the tree forcing them to play partially like a riftwalker

[abstract wave]

hm i guess that's fair

but giving meteor winded applying isn't the right solution

[ashen steeple]

Have meteor apply with a cooldown that way the lazy people can still get winded and the sweat can glaze themselves with faster winded application through skill (it’s Marco)

[mint marsh]

the right solution is fully reworking the entire mage tree to pull apart winded from lb and arcanist entirely which they alr want to do, as a temp fix i think its fine tho

[abstract wave]

eh maybe idk im not a fan of these temporary solutions

id rather have them spend the time to get the rework out sooner than to spend time on it being less broken for a while, but that's just my opinion

[mint marsh]

problem is that this rework has been talked about for like the better part of a year and its prolly not happening all that soon, normally id agree w/ u but they only have so many resources

[crimson tinsel]

Arcanist does a balanced amount of dps without winded or only at 10 winded, it’s like 400k ish on warpcanist at 10 winded iirc

It gets absurd at 30 winded

[mint marsh]

wdym without winded or with 10 winded 10 winded is 60% bonus damage

also the numbers people hrow around are like hyper optimal with crit fishing the bm trift warp build is not doing 400 consistant

[crimson tinsel]

I can believe at 10 winded warpcanist gets 400…

Cause warp rift was getting 250k before Kera nerf

Ok 10 winded giving 60% boost is a bit absurd

Winded is actually broken

[daring river]

realistically arcanist with winded just shouldn't be a thing lol

winded is a stupid mechanic because it can be easily taken by every archetype and it is SO powerful

[mint marsh]

yeah totally agree with this it really limits what the pure classes can do and doesnt add anything interesting, like i said before keeping the spirit of synergy like 30w + arca would be cool if its possible but 100% as it is rn its really toxic for mage

[rough fjord]

yeah it really should be more individualized with riftwalker

though i feel like there would need to be massive compensation for both Arcanist and Lightbender as a result of this

[woven gull]

hell nah. at least if u said add "tp damage give winded" in one of the five tp buff nodes, it would be fine cuz hypemage need buffs to be viable and it does nothing on breathless stealers like arca or riftbender. (seriously who would pick teleport nodes beside pure rift)
but no on meteor cuz it does nothing on riftbender (u already builds up winded with melee) while arcanist can steal those to stop use melee

[daring river]

Yes and no imo? Nobody can really argue that lb and arcanist are weak or anything lmao

[rough fjord]

from my experience with arcanist it isnt particularly weak with winded but its damage with winded isnt breaking any barriers or anything

it's competitive with the better classes and i dont think that's a bad thing

[daring river]

Arcanist has really high damage output last time I checked

Like very high especially when paired with winded

[rough fjord]

my build can get around 400-425k with winded stacked, and about 250k without

arcanist deserves better than 250k dps on a heavily optimized build if im being honest

especially considering how much it's giving up to do that damage

[daring river]

250k is hardly weak lmao

[rough fjord]

i agree but it's not amazing either

for a class that literally gives up its major survivability node it should be more competitive with other similarly risky classes

[daring river]

People really have to remember that most players are not going beyond 100k DPS

[rough fjord]

idk what to tell you here then

if you think arcanist should deal 250k and that number is good when other classes are hitting well over double that with less risk or skill expression then i really dont know what else to say

[daring river]

It's not really a counterpoint to what you're saying. Im not against stuff doing 250k+

[rough fjord]

ic

well overall my point is that not giving compensation to Lightbender or Arcanist for individualizing Winded to lightbender will be really unhealthy for both of the classes

especially with a class like arcanist that has a lot of skill expression. it doesn't deserve to be bad

[daring river]

What skill expression I'm ngl

One of the issues with arcanist is that it doesn't take any brain power to meteor spam

[mint marsh]

250k is quite weak when considering his build is fully optimized for damage specifically on arcanist meaning it has no sustain at all and has absurd unusable costs outside of the context with mana bank, if the most hyper optimal builds are hitting 250k the implication for lower end builds is really not good, like sub 100k which for a damage oriented no sustain class is really concerning, noone would argue lb or arca are weak as is but thats entirely because winded brings them up so high

[mint marsh]

also firm disagree on this, arca numbers only get very high when you use builds that need to heavily lean on tstorm with high costs, aiming storm during boss while paying attention to your surroundings is very difficult compared to the skill cielings of other classes (that or 30w lol)

[daring river]

You're talking about specific high end tech while I'm talking about the general play of the archetype

It's not the same

[mint marsh]

youre right its not, most builds are low int with tstorm though which would make it the version most worth talking about, arcane power the dedicated arca node actuslly does make it much easier but i still dont think anything with resource management is necessarily easy, especially when the bar for "difficult" is being set with classes like bmonk and trapper present for comparison, sorry if im not being clear

[rough fjord]

if winded is removed from arcanist it loses a ginormous about of it’s damage with little justification

aside from giving rift a reason to exist which would be nice but that’s besides the point

if arcanist were to lose winded a previously very difficult class to play would then be rendered so much worse to actually invest in and put effort in because arcanist on its own is really not that crazy in endgame

(i mention in endgame because that’s when you can access full Arca tree + Breathless for the damage)

if i heavily optimize a build to be as good for raids as possible and only am doing like 250k on a class that is meant to sacrifice the single best survivability spell in the entire game just to deal more damage, it should not be comparable in damage to classes that have significantly more EHP, aoe or hell even actual healing present

arcanist is also very single-target oriented as well. sure meteor has aoe and range but in order to get the most value you’re more likely than not going to be shooting stuff at a single mob

with all that said i just want to put it out there that if riftwalker’s winded damage were to be more focussed on Riftwalker itself, it should also be heavily considered that Lightbender and Arcanist’s damage values will have to be adjust appropriately in response to this happenjng

[vocal osprey]

arcanist is not single-target at all, more like attacks in a smaller radius, but I wouldn't call 9 ice snake and maxed meteor range aspect meteors single-target

mana bank also fills a LOT faster if its multiple, heck even just 2-3 targets at once

this is coming from an arcanist main for over a year

[mint marsh]

arcanist main using snake nest with cone of cold is kinda crazy

[vocal osprey]

well its crazy... op for lootruns

it freezes literally all mobs in a crazy radius in front of you

[rough fjord]

1. You use Meteor as if it was single target because of its high damage. Even moreso with Thunderstorm which is what i personally find to be more fun to use
2. if you're using cone of cold aspect on arcanist (or Snake Next to begin with) you're essentially trolling

[vocal osprey]

i use ice snake to freeze mobs + reset mana cost on meteor

I don't use snake aspects or that ability tree node for anni or scrapyard though to avoid lag and visual clutter

[rough fjord]

issue with using ice snake to reset cost is that if youre using sorcery (which is practically essential on arcanist), ice snakes will begin to clog your bank recasts which will massively lose out on DPS

[vocal osprey]

I only have to use ice snake when I have to reset my mana cost anyway, so I don't get it

[rough fjord]

yes that's what i just said

if you use ice snake to reset costs sorcery and your chaos explosions can recast it which means youre not casting meteor so you lose out on DPS

[vocal osprey]

I can cycle 5 meteor and 1 ice snake thats more than enough

[rough fjord]

at times it's genuinely more damage to just not cast ice snake and let your costs passively reset

[vocal osprey]

after I stacked up mana bank, i can go up to 7-8 meteors without reset

[rough fjord]

yes you can but sorcery will clog up your chaos explosion recasts

which is a significant portion of your chaos explosion damage

your main goal on arcanist is to cast as many meteors as physically possible

[vocal osprey]

just cycle 1 snake + 6 meteor + 1 heal over and over again,

[rough fjord]

are you reading what im saying or not

[vocal osprey]

yes I am

[mint marsh]

blud is explaining arcanist to u gg

[rough fjord]

this is precisely why i dont do the cycle you just told me to do

[vocal osprey]

but you can literally cast 6-7 spells between each heal casts? so why wait for mana reset when you can do an extra ice snake right after casting heal?

[daring river]

Well the justification is that it doesn't fit arcanist to have winded lol

[rough fjord]

yeah the theming of it i can get behind, but gameplay wise it hurts the class so much when it doesn't really need to be hurt

[daring river]

I don't play arcanist but from people I've spoken to (maybe that changed recently idrk it's definitely up there with the strongest if played optimally

[mint marsh]

arcanist having to play around winded to have good damage is silly yeah, arcanist shouldnt just do poor damage though it should recieve some of the damage a winded removal would take away in a native buff to recomsolidate its power

[vocal osprey]

anyway, outside of annihilation, I'd rather take that 1 less meteor per cycle and freezing all mobs (so I don't take damage which is even better than old acrobat was lmfao), so ice snake with 9 snakes, or even with just 7 snakes is crazy useful for lootruns, raids, general combat etc

[daring river]

Losing some damage would surely make a bit of sense (not saying all obviously)

[rough fjord]

it absolutely is and that's because it sacrifices a lot to get there

[vocal osprey]

but I don't see how I lose the meteor to ice snake anyway, if I can cast 6 meteors after the ice snake before my heal meteor spam thing runs out (im bad at ability names, sorcery?)

[mint marsh]

its the strongest with winded and fortitude, without external buffs its quite bad, if you take away winded cold turkey you are taking away anywhere from 60-200% (i think) of its damage potential which obv needs compensation

[vocal osprey]

with 35 winded and max consu, I currently do 1.3 mill to 1.5 mill dps to anni with arcanist

[rough fjord]

yeah the winded leeching is ridiculous and i think taking that out is a good thing

just arcanist without winded is way too weak for what a class that is as micromanage-y as arcanist is should be

[vocal osprey]

@daring river what do you think about that number? (about 500-700k with 35 winded but no consu, depending on the build)

[rough fjord]

hmmmmmmm i wonder if 1.5 mil dps is too high

[mint marsh]

i dont tbh 2+ person coordination is really cool and having the best forms of damage be acquired by having different people play different roles instead of everyone playing the single best option, is way more interesting

[rough fjord]

i also like the synergy behind it it's just that the benefit u get from it is way too insane

[mint marsh]

with max consus literally doybling to tripling your base stats i dont think it is nor is it a valid objection tbh 💀 like wow no way the multiplicative damage increase gets big numbers when you artificially inflate your base shocker

[vocal osprey]

question should have been... what would be the ideal dps number for max consu arcanist?

[rough fjord]

depends on if youre excluding winded or not

[daring river]

this is one of the other reasons why winded is silly

[vocal osprey]

I think around 800k to 1 mill is fine for literally maxed consus and buffs

[rough fjord]

without winded a max consu arcanist can maybe hit like 500k

[daring river]

riftwalker makes use of it the least of any archetype which is insanity. Having 1 riftwalker use timelock makes you as an arcanist lose 50% of your damage lol

[vocal osprey]

yeah 500k without winded and max consus is around what I tested

[rough fjord]

i love timelock trolling

[daring river]

well not even trolling

playing the archetype as currently intended

[rough fjord]

even better!

now if anyone accuses me of trolling i can just say im playing just as the game wanted me to

[mint marsh]

you are... which makes it so much worse

[rough fjord]

😇

[mint marsh]

this guy is pure evil

he has a dark soul....

[vocal osprey]

keep in mind that there are other classes and builds that can do over 1 mill dps even without external help (aside from some consus) at anni, soo

[rough fjord]

yeah this is what i mean when i say that arcanist needs compensation if it were to lose out on winded

[vocal osprey]

yes

[rough fjord]

without winded arcanist is genuinely a pretty weak class for how much it gives up on

[vocal osprey]

otherwise 160 mill anni is just... well... considering that you won't get maxed builds and consus players in every single spot of anni groups, you really need some damage to be able to deal with just sun and healers to begin with

[hazy jolt]

Arcanist would LOVE this

[hazy jolt]

include melee in your spell cycle like I do

[shadow lichen]

Play lb!!!

[hazy jolt]

💀

[shadow lichen]

(Winded application is bugged somehow I can’t figure out how)

It wasn’t applying against tcc 💀

Might be melee range aspect acually

[hazy jolt]

bad news for LB in TCC then

[shadow lichen]

Rw is a shit show rn

Can’t play anything

I have to test ltr

[earnest forge]

I heard there's a major rework coming for riftwalker so I don't expect them to do anything regarding how winded is applied.

If anything I'm doubtful as to whether or not winded will survive the rework. Or maybe it does survive, but in a severely nerfed state.

[shadow lichen]

Winded in its current state?

No it wont survive just to be a damage buff to the other archetypes

[vivid arch]

Gust?

[hazy jolt]

LightBender will go from already shitty DPS to even worse shitty DPS 💀💀💀

[hazy jolt]

Mfw winded turns into "gentle breeze"

[shadow lichen]

Tbf it is a support archetype

And arcanist is the funny damage one

[hazy jolt]

Yeah but it should be doing "acceptable" levels of DPS. You can't just call it a support archetype and be happy it does 10k DPS you know what I mean?

[shadow lichen]

Yeah I do

I mean I think it’s 90k without winded on a lb build but I could be wrong

But yeah aco does a shit tone more with being more heal friendly option

[hazy jolt]

Aco is just flat out better imo

[shadow lichen]

Yeah

[hazy jolt]

AND it does crowd control, which LightBender cannot. On top of LB being single target, the orbs are small and miss very very easily. Aco damage is consistent

That's why I think Light Bender should have a significant damage increase to give it more identity than just "worse acolyte"

[shadow lichen]

(Then you see EC and realise well fuck 700k dps

Basically lb is good cus dmg buffs but not great for pure lb as you need to stack winded dmg and using a rw arcanist combo for winded build is better dmg anyways (arcanist build but rw tree with all the arcanist abilities possible after 30w

[hazy jolt]

Mage is in a sad spot rn

[mint marsh]

wdym?

[hazy jolt]

Only Rift-Bender and Rift-Canist exists, no one plays pure rift Walker or pure Lb or pure Arcanist

While Rift-Canist is fine and fun as a DPS archetype, lightbender is objectively just a shittier version of Acolyte at the moment. Less healing, less support, less DPS, less consistent DPS, I say Mage is in a sad spot because you Arcanist is the only archetype that actually has identity.

You could play Fallen or Trapper for bigger DPS numbers, but Warrior has to slowly kill themselves, Trapper relies on positioning with traps, while Arcanist relies on raw hits + chaos explosion means you can make builds with 0 sustain and pure damage and it works. Each DPS archetype is unique in its own way and is good for your preference.

LightBender, when compared to acolyte, doesn't fundamentally have anything unique or different worth taking other than "I can run around teleport". Which IS nice, but that minor quality of life doesn't compensate for lower/inconsistent damage, no crowd control, and no overhealth for teammates in comparison to Acolyte

[mint marsh]

its interesting u say that cause lb is considered way better by most mainly cause of the 50% multiplicative damage boost it has on almost 100% uptime w/ maxxed aspect

[shadow lichen]

Don’t forget a rw + arcane transfer acually builds winded better

So lb is just pure support

(Meteor snake gaia unironically is good here)

(Does require a LOT of Mr tho) (or morph)

[hazy jolt]

50% extra damage doesn't matter if you only hit like 70% of your hits or less. On any target that doesn't directly target you, hitting them perpendicular with a slow moving and small projectile is ass. Light Bender is best (ironically) in solo play or on huge mobs

[mint marsh]

no i mean for othe people

[hazy jolt]

Can you send me a build of what you mean? I don't think I understand

[shadow lichen]

Look at morph + gaia

[mint marsh]

lb is inevitable for any meta party cause fortitude on 3 people is 150% bonus multiplicative damage, basically an extra person and a half not to mention the heals and other stuff lb can provide

[shadow lichen]

Cycle meteor snake
It sustains

(You need the +5 tome tho)

[mint marsh]

i think on a conceptual level the critque of arca and lb needing rw to function is a really big issue but in practice it doesnt effect gameplay that much, mage is thriving as a class in application it just needs to have its borders fleshed out better and rw needs a rework

like most people if u ask will say either warrior or mage are the "best class"

[shadow lichen]

@hazy jolt

[hazy jolt]

Is the build literally just rift Walker tree with arcanist mana storm

[shadow lichen]

https://wynnbuilder.github.io/builder?v=15#9_0cD0cB0cA0c80cF0cF0c40c90Qa22111111111g000000z0z0+0+0+0+0-1Tl-lQwEIM
WynnBuilder build:

Morph-Stardust
Morph-Steel
Morph-Iron
Morph-Gold
Morph-Topaz
Morph-Topaz
Morph-Amethyst
Morph-Ruby
Gaia []

This is purely to build winded,nothing else

[hazy jolt]

Them needing RW to function is definitely something that CT is already addressing by removing winded and nerfing both archetypes (from what I've heard) but that still doesn't change the fact that Lightbender as a class just isn't worth playing :/

[mint marsh]

lb is absolutely worth playing its literally the best support in the game 😭

[mint marsh]

also the rw changes arent necessarily going to be nerfing arca and lb theyre just removing reliance on winded so they can function as decent classes on their own, a nerf is not implicit in this not to mention neither class really needs a nerf

[shadow lichen]

Nuh uh aco better for dmg (300k dps without eldritch, 700k with)

It’s insane how good aco is

[mint marsh]

dude are we serious please read what i said

not to mention EC is fake dps you will almost never get it off in anything other than groot (it cant hit tcc lol)

[shadow lichen]

I know this to my sadness (I had 3 acos in 1 party all with eldritch)

[shadow lichen]

Lb again without rw is purely a support class, yes you do buff with fort but that is 10 seconds

[hazy jolt]

Dude without EC blood sorrow is still far better at tracking and crowd control than Ophanim is

[shadow lichen]

Bro fuck that aura is so much better at cc

[mint marsh]

ok so now were comparing specifically reso to the class of lb lol

[hazy jolt]

Blood sorrow is not exclusive to Resonance idk what you're on 💀

Acolyte THE ARCHETYPE is a better and more consistent version of Lightbender the archetype

[mint marsh]

its literally doing 5 digits on most builds outside reso dude

[hazy jolt]

I have a shitty rainbow slap Abso build and very easily reach a consistent 110k DPS. You either don't know how to build aco or haven't tried to

[rough fjord]

sustained dps or burst?

[mint marsh]

ok so like just looking at builds i can find for aco in this server cause mine are like mostly crafted were...... lying now?

https://wynnbuilder.github.io/builder/?v=14#9_0qn09-0y50Qt0y30vI0tz0Ji0Qs1L05020U221g1000FU001000FU1007lU0z0z0+0+0+0+0-1TzxptUep20

https://wynnbuilder.github.io/builder?v=15#9_10N10K0y50QW0uP0y30xL0vM0QI1h02011p1D1g000000z0z0+0+0+0+0-1T-xpM6XUP0
WynnBuilder build:

Titanomachia
Cannonade
Pain Cycle
Crusade Sabatons
Photon
Bloodborne
Provenance
Simulacrum
Absolution []

i dont see sorrow hitting a 100k here someone can correct me if im wrong

[hazy jolt]

Sustained. Non-shatter, just Lunatic DPS mask, and I actually have excess mana but I don't like spamming aura cause I want the blood pool for 100% sorrow up time

[hazy jolt]

Bro I'm talking about DPS of the archetype, Sorrow + Bleed + Tether, and melee if you can. No, I am not hitting 100k sorrow DPS I'm hitting 110k DPS total with sorrow and melee spam

Aura for healing

[mint marsh]

oh i mean lb is doing like 200+ i dont see how this is relevant

you can argue for aoe but i cant think of a single time that is ever a real strength

especially not when acos #1 synergy is fallen

[hazy jolt]

On single target, that doesn't move. And I'm using Abso for fucks sake lmaoooo the DPS with Hadal aco is also 200+ my guy.

[hazy jolt]

Considering fallen is the best DPS archetype in the game that makes it even more of an argument for Acolyte being preferred 🫃

[hazy jolt]

Compare Abso acolyte DPS with Monster Lightbender DPS and I think that's a more fair comparison of what each archetype is capable of

[rough fjord]

lightbender and acolyte do very different things during combat is the thing, i dont think that's much of a fair comparison]

[mint marsh]

you would want to compare lament not monster, monster is a dogshit weapon

[rough fjord]

and why're we saying to compare the flat DPS of 2 support archetypes while discussing the supportive aspects of these archetypes 💀

[mint marsh]

yeah

[shadow lichen]

@hazy jolt heres an example of uh rw with arcanist

https://youtu.be/0hxN3fnFC9c

i need to change the channel name to wynncraft

Ok it is done

[mint marsh]

imma be real dps comparison is like really braindead and also a red haring on 2 support classes, lbs healing + insane damage boost is more useful than acos healing + small overhealth in a meta where damage is paramount not really much else to say

[shadow lichen]

But uh fallen 100% hp is too op man

[crimson tinsel]

I don’t understand why you can argue lb is worse cause in the worst case, fortitude is still a buff that compensates for 1.5 person’s effective dps

[shadow lichen]

You can spell spam hard

[mint marsh]

fallen 50% damage boost is better i main fallen i would know......

[shadow lichen]

But fort is got a 20 second cool down iirc, thats 10 seconds of no extra dmg, and it evens out p much (around 50% more dmg)

Which unless you hit 2-3m dps isn’t even that big

[crimson tinsel]

With aspects it’s basically permanent

[mint marsh]

you only get overhealth at the beginning of the fight and also fort is basically perm w/ aspect

[shadow lichen]

It’s max maybe 300k more

[crimson tinsel]

And you can charge curse/courage for free cause you melee

[shadow lichen]

Heh? Isn’t cool-down 10 seconds

[shadow lichen]

You melee on aco as well

[crimson tinsel]

Abso doesn’t have powder slots

[shadow lichen]

I love how we went from make ophiam/meteor apply winded to this

[crimson tinsel]

Non-abso acolyte is really ass to play, reso is reso

[shadow lichen]

Oh
Uh

[shadow lichen]

Oly is damn nice b4 reso tho
But yes agi fail = death

[crimson tinsel]

Lack of healeff makes your blood economy a pain to manage and you can’t take many hits

[shadow lichen]

Fair ig (I play mortar and will play it till the end of my days) (or get a reso idk)

[hazy jolt]

Two support classes, one is objectively better with damage and support, hence it is the better class. The other one doesn't offer anything unique or worthwhile.

You wanna support, you run Aco. LightBender is fun, and mage is my favorite class, but I can't lie and say Lightbender is good in its own unique way cause it's not

[crimson tinsel]

.

[rough fjord]

see the thing is if lightbender is worthless then why is it seen so much in anni parties whereas you rarely see more than 1 acolyte at a time

[mint marsh]

i said this and were just decided to ignore it lol

[crimson tinsel]

Wait they don’t stack?

[mint marsh]

being an intrisic 1.5 player advantage is just not a valid support quality so its not a valid argument, giving like 5k overhealth on the other hand...... oooo baby

[rough fjord]

dont forget the 20% damage boost 😱 (which is worse than Fortitude's damage buff assuming perfect uptime)

[mint marsh]

yeah cause people are definitely standing in your totem range perma too 😄

[rough fjord]

😇

[mint marsh]

silly me!

like i really dont want to appeal to meta or playrates but if thats the only thing people will respect it is also true that lb is just way overrepresented in raids compared to aco, same with anni

[shadow lichen]

You forget that fort doesn’t stack so it’s better to have 1 aco 1 lb

[rough fjord]

it doesnt stack but if u have multiple lbs you can just reset forti's duration as soon as it ends making it effectively even better

[mint marsh]

i think were just assuming this is for raids where u only really want one support

[shadow lichen]

Fair

[shadow lichen]

You have perf uptime anyways

[rough fjord]

fortitude does not have 100% uptime

[mint marsh]

its like near 100%

it can be true 100% uptime if your team phase transitions like tna or orph fast enough too so in some cases it is

[rough fjord]

with the aspect it's 66% uptime

[mint marsh]

u right

[crimson tinsel]

I think the heals and overhealth of aco are just not that valuable in this meta

[shadow lichen]

So I was right

[crimson tinsel]

Lightbender heals enough and overhealth is only really good in Annie to tank heavier hits or it deteriorats too quickly to be actually useful

[mint marsh]

yeah 100%, people will not play more recklessly if they have an aco in party cause theres no benefit to it, if builds are still playing like theyre gonna get oneshot the aco isnt doing anything

niche exceptions being like groot walling or glue ig

[rough fjord]

it's better in burst from Trumpet but with how it's given throuhg Sorrow it's just not that great

[crimson tinsel]

While fortitude is just, great

And the point about powder specials too

[hazy jolt]

Ease of use

[rough fjord]

riiiiiiiight........

[hazy jolt]

You think I'm being sarcastic but I'm really not. Also, Lightbender really shines against big, unmoving targets. No one uses Lightbender in TNA, Grootslang, or Orphion for a reason

TCC and Annihilation it works wonderfully because you reach optimal DPS easily

[mint marsh]

sir

lightbender has been one of the 4 used for record times for literally all of those besides groot

where obv aco wins becaue healing is actually more important

like i dont know how else to explain the insane power 50% multiplicative damage has

if you are running with 3 fallen that each do ~500k dps over the course of their burst averaging highs and lows, you are effectively adding 750k by yourself not including your own damage....

high level its not even a debate

aco is only better if your team is getting hit and or dying alot which anyone whos decent at the game doesnt, lb gives buffs other than survivability which allow it to scale much better with the skill cieling the game has, it is the clear better class

[hazy jolt]

"has been" bro I've literally never seen it have common usage in raids besides TCC.

Imo 30% extra DPS isn't worth the worse QOL gameplay for yourself, but yeah I can see how that's very powerful for your allies who do DPS

Aco is still the better class because you give your allies a cushion of safety (over health) and have a powerful asf heal. Doing more DPS doesn't matter if you die early

But ig it just boils down to what you value more. Not dying or pure damage

[crimson tinsel]

.

[crimson tinsel]

.

Comparatively, pure damage is just, better in most situations

[mint marsh]

yeah kinda problem is though that the meta just outright favors damage over survivability though, to anyone looking at raids as something to be farmed it is just the better class, i like aco more from a design standpoint were just not in the kind of meta where pure hp sustain is useful

[hazy jolt]

I prefer the insurance. Also feels more enjoyable when you personally can actually do damage. LightBender is preferred in TCC and Annihilation but I find that heal range is too small for you to consistently get a heal on everyone while doing TNA. Harder than planting your totems where people can see and they run through/in it 🤷

I wish we had more genuinely useful defensive utility

The meta is pretty much "do damage and be fast enough to dodge getting damaged"

[mint marsh]

yeah p much, if you make content skill expressive and give people a long time to get good at it they will be able to abuse it alot

funnily enough paladins trumpet is actually kinda goated defensive support since it gives you one big burst big enough to tank through stuff like greg skulls or tcc sword swing so it translates to more damage opportunities

[crimson tinsel]

Yeah actually it acts like an instant shield

[daring river]

Genuinely I think this is the first time I've ever heard a complaint that light benders orbs are hard to hit. I've never had that experience and never heard it from anyone else I've played or interacted with

Lightweaver can be annoying sure because you have to be at just the right distance. But regular ophanim?

[hazy jolt]

If you're actively playing Lightbender in general content and running around, fast moving mobs will dodge what you throw at them. Most the time it's not an issue because you're playing alone, and it's easy to aim at a target that's moving towards you, but if you play with other people or have to aim perpendicular, you will miss most of the orbs from even a moderate distance away. That, or you try to lead your shots which can work 🤷‍♂️

Whenever I ask LB mains they agree it's a small hitbox but their attitude is more so "oh well" and not "i've never had a problem with it"

in raids with big hurtbox enemies, it's less of an issue, but you see the struggle a lot in TNA if the boss isn't actively chasing you down

[daring river]

I've never seen this struggle on any enemy in the game. Sure maybe I miss a single orb on something moving fast like orphion charging or something smaller but... I would also miss on many archetypes..

Having ophanim and lightweaver and then ice snake unless we forgot about that, then it's really never an issue

[shadow lichen]

It is annoying slightly as you lose meteor as a source of AOE, but overall it’s ok as you gain so much more

[hazy jolt]

Ice snake is only relevant on lightbender if you have slower attack speeds. Lament and Monster. At that point, yeah, far easier to aim, but if your buddy is getting chased by Greg and you're trying to catch up to them with your 20% ws build... yeah, good luck with that

[daring river]

I'm saying there's multiple things I'm not saying you should only use one spell

[hazy jolt]

If you have Fatal with lightbender you have 0 reason to do anything other than melee

[daring river]

My point still stands. Ophanim move quite fast and you have like 5+ of them. They aren't hard to hit whatsoever

[hazy jolt]

My experience with it is that it's not impossible to hit but it can be annoying on fast moving targets that aren't going for you specifically

🤷‍♂️

[shadow lichen]

Uh
Uh
I vanish you to do qira thunder boss with it

It’s is so painfully long

[tawdry sapphire]

Just, don’t fall for the fakes?

[shadow lichen]

It’s uh

Bing bong I’m gone to the other side of the room

[tawdry sapphire]

The R-R-R in question: