About Wynncraft mods handing out perm bans for literally anything

[rugged siren]

i feel like if the bug is like crazy enough, and intentional, you knew what you were doing and deserve the time-out

[near hare]

That moreso comes with game experience ngl

[rugged siren]

itll be on a mod-by-mod basis but like itll be close

[rugged siren]

im not up to date on the elite warring bugs, but every warrer has hundreds of hours in the game

[safe swallow]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-brick-meme-break-explode-gif-13868715770986833670

[rugged siren]

i think the guild 'avicia' should be investigated for bug abuse

and seq

[lilac meadow]

Indeed

[near hare]

How did you take a super broad topic and immediately narrow the scope to wars and then further narrow the point to 2 guilds ~300ish players combined

[safe swallow]

Anyways when it comes down to it, I agree that theres some merit to potential mod bias stuff, a little bit with the assuming guilt from the get go, but some of the claims being made about what is and isnt bannable is a bit absurd

[rugged siren]

im just kinda the goat in that

they call me mr narrow

[safe swallow]

for example, in your "why are most bans permanent" section:

Do you really think that grinding mobs at unintended locations deserves a perm ban? (It’s in the rules but I’m not sure if it has ever been enforced.)
This has been warnings before ban, as nagisa mentioned on multiple occasions

[frigid jetty]

[safe swallow]

Its pretty baseless to be claiming that its a guarenteed perm ban when you are arent familiar with it in the first place

[red hawk]

Valentine's Day so i send u ❤️

[drowsy turtle]

But still if they have been warned and keep doing it, is it worth a perm ban?

[safe swallow]

yeah?

[drowsy turtle]

can I have one 🥺

[safe swallow]

You have been warned to not do it, and you actively are choosing to continue

that is 100% your fault

and you should take responsibility and appeal

[rugged siren]

unrelate dwhy is slowmode 10s can we change it to 5s

[red hawk]

i miss u in wynn 💔

[drowsy turtle]

which is what I don't agree with honestly

[near hare]

HAPPY VALENTINES HIB <3 ❤️ ❤️

[frigid jetty]

what

[olive fossil]

[lilac meadow]

To stop yappers

[safe swallow]

they think it should just be like a long tempban or something instead ig

[rugged siren]

its fun to yap..

[safe swallow]

rather than an appealable perm ban

while also wanting temp bans to be appealable... i guess

[lilac meadow]

#guild_community

[drowsy turtle]

just lost a lot of passion for the game

[frigid jetty]

I keep getting caught stealing from this convenience store, I guess they should just let me keep coming in

[rugged siren]

too many opps lurking there

[drowsy turtle]

stop being condescending

[red hawk]

hearing u got 2nd ban kinda says that but still!!!

[frigid jetty]

Start making logical points and we'll see

[drowsy turtle]

bait used to be believable

[safe swallow]

I am going to be real, it is not that hard to not break the rules

[lilac meadow]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1241910795063791736/1332520618880667709/image0.gif

[safe swallow]

you are treating it as something you have to jump through so many hoops to do

its really not..

[rugged siren]

some rules are, like apparently having a bug bounty for bugs and advertising it in shouts is "fishing for bugs"? truly its 1984.

[safe swallow]

that kinda is fishing for bugs

its kinda implied that they would be telling you the bugs to collect the bounty

[rugged siren]

can a man not be whimsical

[safe swallow]

it was only a warn, just dont continue to do it and its nbd

[strange kiln]

I also told u not to do it before the warn lol

[rugged siren]

i did have a few mods msg me

[strange kiln]

🤯

[rugged siren]

i have 0 recollection of the messages but to my knowledge it was along the lines of "yeah report them and dont abuse them"

[plain peak]

Since we have a few mods here, I would like to ask a question

[rugged siren]

can wse keep this thread on topic

[frigid jetty]

We can certainly try

[burnt cape]

If this is a bad question you get banned

[safe swallow]

real

[swift arch]

thats quite on topic ngl

[plain peak]

I’ll ask in John dms since this chat have slow mode

[eternal kindle]

Yet you don't (often) get your license taken away for speeding

[burnt cape]

You do for drunk driving and thats also pretty common

[frigid jetty]

I specifically said speeding ticket

[eternal kindle]

nobody is talking about drunk driving

[burnt cape]

Its the same argument

[eternal kindle]

No

[burnt cape]

You cant just say no

[eternal kindle]

I can when you're wrong

[rugged siren]

hey i think if you get a dui you should have your license revoked

[burnt cape]

Replace the words speeding with drunk driving in the message i sent and it holds true

[rugged siren]

nope

[eternal kindle]

"Change the premise entirely and you'll see its true"

I've already made my points in this thread clear. If you want clarification then ask, but if you misconstrue my words then thats on you

[drowsy turtle]

wtf is miscontrue that's a really cool word wtf

[safe swallow]

misinterpret

[rugged siren]

this guiy is like 14 years old

[eternal kindle]

Misinterpret, usually with intention

[frigid jetty]

so you get annoyed when someone does it to you, but then you take my words and change it to getting a licensed removed instead of the original speeding ticket and you're fine?

[eternal kindle]

You brought up speeding as an allagory, that is usually just a slap on the wrist (temp ban or warning). We are talking about permanet bans with no appeal which is more similar to getting your license revoked. The example (in my opionion) doesn't hold because you can get perma banned from small things on wynn much easier than getting your license revoked from speeding

[rugged siren]

what if we stop using this speeding analogy

[eternal kindle]

^

I don't think it fits

[rugged siren]

i think it went off the rails once we brought up drunk driving

[frigid jetty]

I didnt bring up drunk driving

[rugged siren]

idk who did but its there

[eternal kindle]

Glad we resolved it

[slate pasture]

who cares yall are arguing semantics over an analogy lol

[safe swallow]

😭

[eternal kindle]

which is why my first message on the matter was saying that it wasn't really comparable

[safe swallow]

Ill prob leave the thread fr this time. Really zeer put it best from the get go. The thread is kinda just in a loop of perm ban is how we do things and the appeals are possible and quite lenient. And then OP goes back around to the same point on disagreeing that it should be a perm ban system. Its really just a disagreement with the fundamental ban system but realistically the ban system is not changing.

The convo has looped like this several times already.

I do advise you to reread what zeer said, because what he said does stand true.

have fun arguing in circles over a speeding ticket analogy too..

[frigid jetty]

I can talk in any circle if given sufficient ammunition, dont tempt me

[slate pasture]

first ban is "permanent" only in name and unless you insulted your mod or evaded you pretty much get auto accepted so long as you show some shred of remorse for what you did

[safe swallow]

there are like

very few things that will result in no chance of appeal

from the get go

[drowsy turtle]

I don't think we are getting anywhere tho but at least there was some good discussion at some points

[eternal kindle]

Pretty much the average feedback thread

[slate pasture]

you're not getting anywhere because there's nowhere to get

the only good point was that in cases where there's a possible conflict of interest that the mod banning should not be the mod deciding on the appeal

[rugged siren]

we made good discussion on how reporting bugs suck

[slate pasture]

that isnt related to mods that's a qa/ct issue but yes it sucks ass

[cerulean timber]

its open it just cant be advertised

discord bot

[limber kindle]

tbh it feels like there should always be two mods even if no apparent conflict of interest because the first mod clearly sees smth is wrong yk so they are already idk how to say it but yk

[cerulean timber]

i was joking btw but now im curious how thats relevant

[slate pasture]

make an ingame command that takes you to a pre-filled forum thread that requires you to just type simple description

😲

[limber kindle]

in game prompts would be nice yeah

no redirect at all please and don’t forget to add undo functions

[eternal kindle]

but muh devtime

[slate pasture]

not my problem hire more devs

[lilac meadow]

Salted needs more yachts

[slate pasture]

hire more devs to make more content faster to make more money quicker

[heady flame]

many would be happy to work for free

[amber nest]

print more yachts

[slate pasture]

hello nagisa

[eternal forge]

Hi I’m responding to one of your messages actually

[hollow wedge]

I would

[heady flame]

same

[eternal forge]

I will say btw I totally agree this is an issue but there are some really nice upsides

If the mod can’t showcase evidence (internally, not to you) then the case ends

If the mod who bans you takes the appeal (for an ingame thing) they literally were there and know firsthand context around the incident better than someone playing telephone

If they make a bad ban it’s on them

Some bans I 100% believe are fine to be self dealt with (like cheating, I don’t need a second opinion on my video of you flying across ragni) but do keep in mind most really big bans are decided by the team before the ban is even sent out (this is why sometimes you get banned offline sometime after you did the rule break)

Also some mods are more knowledgeable on certain scenarios than others. Frankly I think Mod/QA (both ranks) members are more suited to ban for Exploiting than someone who usually just bans for cheating.

—

However.

It is absolutely not good for one person to be judge (no jury) and executioner. I hope it’s improved but when I left unless a mod passed an appeal off (or managers took over) they could go pretty long without any questions being asked. Nobody’s job (then) was to keep track of responses.

Do keep in mind though, you can always ask for a different mod. Of course, you could believe the mod you got is ALSO against you, but you could make a case of people you don’t want to take it.

[slate pasture]

he really put the em dash... crazy work to top off a delicious yapaholic beverage

[eternal forge]

I don’t know what any of this means but probably true i yap a lot

[slate pasture]

its the bigger brother of the hyphen

there have been cases of people i've helped where they've tried to request a different mod and no bueno

[eternal forge]

Ask mod managers and if that doesn’t work (holy moly) maybe tag an admin (maybe) (might be awful advice)

[slate pasture]

"ask mod managers" when the mod in question is a mod manager...

[lilac meadow]

Ask another one

[slate pasture]

they referred back to other mod manager lol

(this was when viri and naraka were only mod managers)

[lilac meadow]

💀

[slate pasture]

what do we do then!

[lilac meadow]

Idk

[slate pasture]

https://tenor.com/view/shrug-idk-dexter-innocent-gif-10412116

[heady flame]

whats with the cant show evidence to the accused thing btw

[eternal forge]

Ill put it here because I think it’s funny and maybe someone will finally fix it but I still have mod pannel

I told managers twice 💀

[slate pasture]

so do i

[lilac meadow]

Like the mod options thing?

[heady flame]

imagine someone is recorded using a hover booster but the person recording has particles off, and they get banned, how do u appeal that

[eternal forge]

No public comment

[slate pasture]

https://tenor.com/view/hideo-kojima-mgs-rocket-metal-gear-idkguyidk-gif-6710607785251356347

[slate pasture]

this is how falsebans happen (duat moment)

[heady flame]

like the person appealing needs to be able to address evidence

[eternal forge]

Ok genuine response, that scenario fucking sucks (for the mod)

[slate pasture]

same case, mod saw him spamming spells in a town (because there's no concievable way people would use the game's abilities outside of combat!!!) and punished

[eternal forge]

You almost never will get mod POV

If you do it’s crazy censored

I had to quit streaming on Wynn when I became mod, there wasn’t a toggle for mod tools

But generally speaking, you would need to double and triple down you aren’t cheating and to ask the mod to have other mods watch it

[heady flame]

does it at least get recorded and is able to be reviewed by another mod/manager

[eternal forge]

Surely one would know charge velocity arc

[eternal forge]

It used to be if no video no ban no exceptions ( when applicable) before but idk what it is now

[daring plover]

but u just said if someone is flyhacking you wouldn't necessarily go for a seocnd opinion?

Some bans I 100% believe are fine to be self dealt with (like cheating, I don’t need a second opinion on my video of you flying across ragni)

[eternal forge]

No, I wouldn’t, because the cases are generally people flying at Mach 10 from ragni to nemract at level 3

[slate pasture]

yeah no shit why do you need a second opinion for that lol

that is not to say another mod cannot look at it

[eternal forge]

In the two years i was staff only like two people above level 60 were banned for fly hacks if you want some perspective, and I remember both

[daring plover]

oh okay

[eternal forge]

One had skill issue and was flying to kill amadel (L)

[heady flame]

so real

[eternal forge]

The other flew from rymek to upper canyon and when confronted admitted and was like “bro I so cant be bothered to walk up this god awful terrain”

Iirc they also said they flew through canyon of the lost because “it’s terrible” which is so real

[heady flame]

the equivalent nowdays is tcc parkour

[slate pasture]

have yall ever had a calf cramp when you wake up before?

[eternal forge]

Other examples, and one I’ll just name drop because they’ve outed themselves for it was Beanb using a client to remove blocks in LI to skip bosses and farm diamond tokens

This was such a garbage case

I still have the video FROM THEIR POV and the audacity to make public posts saying false ban 💀

[heady flame]

lol

[slate pasture]

i mean i dont think a second opinion is necessary for blatant hacking because the person who was doing it was blatantly doing it

nicher cases and things that are subjective should be split between person handling the case and person banning

[eternal forge]

If you want to deny a ban (for literally anything) youre allowed to
But mods are allowed to deny the appeal

[slate pasture]

Yapgisa

[eternal forge]

So true

I’m on vacation i have nothing better to do

[slate pasture]

enjoy your vacation??? im at work with 10 minutes left

feel free to take my place bro?

[eternal forge]

Sorry I was busy at NASA Mission Control

Genuine btw

[slate pasture]

nice try wynncraft diddy

[heady flame]

leaked

[humble geyser]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1240662452652347452/1335629430676127845/attachment.gif

[eternal forge]

What

1992 Mission Control

[heady flame]

the cigarettes are new

[eternal forge]

The 1992 room is exactly as it was during moon landing iirc from what was said, so no they’re not “new”, they’re cigarettes from 1992 but not the ones actually smoked

Either moonlanding or 11

[heady flame]

do you have pictures of the moon landing room

where it was filmed

[eternal forge]

Sorry that was top secret behind a door I couldn’t go in

[heady flame]

clip in

[eternal forge]

sv_cheats 1
noclip

[heady flame]

just remove blocks

i wonder if its bannable to fly with leap when server lags

[burnt cape]

Like yeah free him

[eternal forge]

lmao I used to do this on mineplex for gems from the parkour

[eternal forge]

Iirc I unbanned him since he appealed and said he did it
It’s that easy

[burnt cape]

I can’t stand that terrain either tbh

[heady flame]

imagine if every class had hook

[burnt cape]

Thank god for grappling hook being added

[lilac meadow]

Warp 🔥

[languid elk]

This gets enforced I've personally seen a mod warn for this exact rule

If you aren't in the know then don't say things aren't enforced

[safe swallow]

Video or other tangible evidence and yes its still the case

[safe swallow]

im getting this fixed for you

[safe swallow]

cool shit

[north sun]

free thevoidness

[fast mist]

So are we at least going to have a proper ban appeal form then that doesn’t automatically assume you’re guilty?

That seems like something everyone agrees is a problem rn

That and having a separate moderator review your case from the one that reported you sound like basic changes that would go a long way.

[hollow wedge]

@remote cosmos Dexterose

[remote cosmos]

dexter the bay harbour butcher

https://tenor.com/view/dexter-morgan-bayharbour-butcher-knife-gif-13863408

[eternal forge]

The thing is you were already found guilty, that’s why you were banned

Most appeals aren’t denying the guilt, but instead asking for another chance

Youre certainly able to plead not guilty, but It will take way longer. Youre basically attempting to do a retrial

I get what you mean though, if you DO feel like what you did wasn’t a ban reason it’s set up against you

[sharp flume]

I swear people admit to things they didn't do because of how terrible the appealing process is

[eternal forge]

I understand why you would believe this but this would mean you believe most bans are done for no reason

I wouldn't say no false bans ever happened, but I only saw two. Both were handled same day.

I do acknowledge that it is easier to admit guilt even if you don't believe you're guilty, but again you were banned with evidence so what are you gonna deny

[stark tinsel]

im gonna use this thread to shift the public into unbanning me 💯

oh my GOODNESS

[drowsy turtle]

are you gonna scroll through the 2000 messages here lmao

[stark tinsel]

nah i just searched the word "ban" lmao

[dusky isle]

I scrolled thru the first 1k ND I am not doing thr 2nd half

[eternal forge]

All it comes down to (which wasn't the point of original post) is disagreement on what warrants a ban

Zeer responded early on with a very well written response on why the system is the way it is

[stark tinsel]

anyway my 2 cents to all this is that i don't think the ban appeal process needs any drastic improvements considering if your appeal was truly done poorly or had malicious intent from a mod and you have proof you can literally contact most mods and ALL mod managers here on discord and they respond fairly fast.
the point i strongly agree with is that what counts as worthy of a perma ban is loosely described and even though it's probably not true sometimes I do think some mods perma ban you just off of feel depending on the situation. I think more diverse punishments would solve some frustrations
some examples can be 3 month temp bans or restricting access to shouts and all chat if the perma ban would've been chat related. ofc if it's a game ruining offense or something that really hinders a certain community it's very much well deserving of a perma.
anyway at the end of the day just don't do banworthy stuff and remember that basically the entire moderation system and team is running off of volunteer work so go yell at salted to pay mods for an extremely polished system idk

[safe swallow]

Chat related stuff already has had mutes being given

For a long time muted just didn't work though..

[eternal forge]

last mod update 2019 sob

[safe swallow]

However if a chat infraction is really bad still it will be a ban

[safe swallow]

</3

[drowsy turtle]

I don't think a rule breaker is necessarily a bad person and some certainly do more good than bad for the community. Given that the people I know that have actually been perm banned beyond appeal are just generally chill and aren't really hateful or "evil" people per se.
I just don't get why you are soo eager to get rid of anyone who breaks the rules even if they didn't even cause much harm, as to permanently disallow them from playing the server, it just doesn't seem right to me.
That's why I think the more ideal model would be longer temp bans that still accomplish the goal of limiting harm to other players, still teaches a lesson, but doesn't actually get rid of players who actually love the game and want to experience the new content.

If you think perm ban until appeal is still the better model, more chances should be given imo
Perm ban or 2 year cooldown until you appeal just seems excessive to me.

I get that you have to enforce your rules strictly and give out serious punishments for rule breakers so that rule breaking isn't normalised and will be something actively avoided, but some more leniency could help.

Maybe it's just me though, I don't feel like my bans were treated with the degree of leniency as you are indicating, but I don't want move the conversation back to my bans and it will just feel like I'm just coping (somehow?) or this thread is purely created out of self-interest

[burnt cape]

How would it not work

[safe swallow]

..?

It just didnt

[burnt cape]

Wouldn’t players not be able to commit those infractions if they couldn’t talk in chat

[safe swallow]

I think you are misunderstanding

It just wouldn't mute you

[burnt cape]

Oh

[safe swallow]

It did not work

[burnt cape]

That makes more sense

[drowsy turtle]

"it did not function properly" would be more clearer

[burnt cape]

I just misunderstood

[safe swallow]

It means the same thing. You are arguing semantics

[drowsy turtle]

I'm just trying to clarify, not meaning to argue, but i did not know how to phrase it in a way that is not how it ended up as

[proven breach]

Womp womp

[eternal forge]

I actually do agree the 2 year wait could be reduced, it fucked over some people for stupid reasons (Nynnf)

[cloud steppe]

i'm still so positively surprised that nynnf didn't just lose interest in wynn in those 2 years

[dusky isle]

Fr the bans prob put off so many jits from rejoining

If u weren't part of the community yo prob not trying yo rejoin after 2 yrs

[gaunt stump]

I would watch linnyflower play wynn and keep up to date with the game and I was very addicted

I would dream and think about wynn constantly for the entire two years and like would sit there and just watch people play during covid but I was playing 20~ hours a day on hich so it made sense I was fully invested mentally and physically

[gaunt stump]

I think it should be 1 year but I think some people like triflame should not be unbanned, you don't know him but if anything he's become more unhinged in the time he's been gone then reforming

[dusky isle]

what is triflame even doing rn

[gaunt stump]

Wynn is a very slack game when it comes to rules , we as players have lots of freedoms and it takes a lot to get yourself banned unless you're toxic to people like slurs or death threats, you can get a perm ban for a single "k-y-s"

[gaunt stump]

He's been stalking me on hypixel for about a week or two following me saying "You know what you did" and he stalks the hypixel forums mass disliking everyone's posts. He's banned from every single community on hypixel and on wynn 🗣️ I only mentioned him because he can apply for unban because his 2 years are up in 1-2 months

[dusky isle]

what the flip....

[limber kindle]

curious how this works - is there a flag or does it have to be reported (and if it is reported is the targeted audience contacted?)

[gaunt stump]

You have to be reported

[dusky isle]

i only saw him get angry abt his ban and defmation in wcfc discord and ping madeline and assumed he moved on

[limber kindle]

or can some weirdo 3rd party be insulted for no reason

[gaunt stump]

You could have a close knit friendgroup and say slurs all you want but if one person reports it and shares chatlog, it's over

[limber kindle]

yikes

[gaunt stump]

You arent told who reported you, you're given a moderator who took the case or banned you

[limber kindle]

cause in my guild sometimes I say stuff via discord and I get these messages from people who don’t know english saying i’m being offensive

I try to be more careful in game

[gaunt stump]

Generally I don't think you should be saying toxic things to other people anyway

I've learnt my lesson on that and typically it isn't worth it

[eternal forge]

Wtf did they do get banned I remember the name

[gaunt stump]

You could probably name any type of ban reason and he covers it

[eternal forge]

No comments on flag but there is a filter but it's not great

[gaunt stump]

He has an alt in this discord and friends who leak the stuff so he'll probably harass me more if i continue

[wicked tinsel]

lmao 🔥

tbf where do they even announce stuff like the toa thing

the ONLY reason i know afking while holding ignis is illegal now is because i was there in #🌎wynncraft when sirkiddo got falsebanned for it

[limber kindle]

??? what is wrong with holding itgnjs?

[wicked tinsel]

afk in a party tho

counts as afk farming or smth now even tho it was perfectly fine

[limber kindle]

that is rather stupid

am I afk farming deaths if I afk with -hpr?

[wicked tinsel]

went way downhill after being out of wynn community

erm well -hpr wont kill you (but if theres a mob at the respawn point sure technically)

[daring plover]

is afk ignis still a rule? like the holder isn't getting any drops or xp since they aren't attacking

[wicked tinsel]

kinda fire ngl

[heady flame]

https://tenor.com/view/venom-gif-27487650

[hollow wedge]

it's explicitly stated in the rules with no mentioned exceptions

[wicked tinsel]

so you gotta just reread rules whenever you come back?

[heady flame]

well u dont get rewards for afk healing

[wicked tinsel]

i feel like im the only person who reads the rules in the first place lmao

[limber kindle]

pandemonium + nuclear emesis + herald of ruin + bomb aoe aspect

[wicked tinsel]

exactly!

[heady flame]

also its heart of the pack, so altruism is allowed!

[hollow wedge]

that's a separate sentence

[limber kindle]

such as…

[hollow wedge]

Wynncraft has way too many ambiguously worded messages everywhere

[limber kindle]

hmm is afking with pandemonium on shaman / mage allowed?

[heady flame]

such as...

[limber kindle]

yes

this is such a terrible rule

[amber nest]

or procrastination?

that one is vague tbf

[daring plover]

it's under afk farming specifically and afking with ignis isn't farming

[amber nest]

like proc + pc + aspect, makes up to 2 mins without touching a single key

[limber kindle]

^^

[hollow wedge]

it's worded like shit

[limber kindle]

and enforced like shit

(apparently)

[hollow wedge]

and it clearly wasn't the intention with which it was written, but it's stil technically against the rules

[eternal forge]

Because the game doesnt have auto detection for “player holding hasnt moved in 30 seconds while in a party”

[heady flame]

btw it still doesnt have the dont afk in a world event on your alt

7 month after annie being introduced and it being a problem

[eternal forge]

Afking for waiting for a timed event isnt even illegal

[heady flame]

it is, shadow confirmed it

[limber kindle]

it is if you have hpr!

[dusky isle]

wt the sigma is his pfp and guidl name aw hell nah jigsaw(can us end the full post btw ;3)

[heady flame]

oh u mean waiting

[eternal forge]

Ok well Shadow can get them to write a new rule on it because it’s not there

[heady flame]

no, if u and your alt do a two people annie and ur alt is afk u get banned

despite u clearly putting in the work

[daring plover]

what if u have hpr+thorns/reflection and the mobs around u start hitting you while u afk for the WE????

[eternal forge]

No this is fair

[hollow wedge]

@wicked tinsel [ZAMN] that's some good mutual servers

[heady flame]

is it

[eternal forge]

Sorry, this is totally fair youre getting rewards on an account without input

[heady flame]

u are fighting a 2 person annie

[eternal forge]

I do acknowledge that item bombs are a valid example of this not being enforced but that doesn’t mean this is invalid

[hollow wedge]

^
or play with your feet

[eternal forge]

Doesn’t matter if it’s harder, it’s not allowed

[eternal forge]

Unironically this WOULD be legal

[hollow wedge]

and really fun

[heady flame]

regardless of fairness, it should be in the rules; the way they are phrased rn doesnt account for that

[eternal forge]

It does, youre not inputting on an account and it’s getting rewards

[heady flame]

u are the one fighting it

[daring plover]

punscake if i see u take ur hands off keyboard and mouse in tna i will report you for gaining raid progress while afk

[eternal forge]

Its honestly one of the most objective and fair rule wording

[eternal forge]

Ok, and you (2) isnt

[heady flame]

my (2) is me

[hollow wedge]

if you die in a raid and aren't actively flying around then you will be banned for AFK farming

[eternal forge]

No, youre you (1) as that’s who you’re controlling

[heady flame]

and my (1) will get all the rewards

[eternal forge]

Ok, then why bring (2)

[heady flame]

+difficulty +rewards for (1)

[daring plover]

to make the fight harder, duh

[limber kindle]

it is clearly not intended

[eternal forge]

Yeah no that’s still reward for lack of input even if that’s how it works

[limber kindle]

yall are being goofy rn

[heady flame]

i agree! and it should be bannable! it should also be mentioned in the rules

[hollow wedge]

it's a vanilla mechanic though

[eternal forge]

It’s in the rules, youre not inputting and youre getting rewards

[daring plover]

if u ask a guild member to /kill at the the start of anni b/c you want a challenge does it count as afk farming for either one of you??

[heady flame]

and the funnies bit is, if its bannable, why is annie still time gated

[eternal forge]

These two do not correlate

[heady flame]

i disagree

[hollow wedge]

because people will still do it even if it's bannable

[heady flame]

i have seen two reasons for annie being time gated, alt farming and 'hype'

[hollow wedge]

prevention over punishment or whatever

[heady flame]

the alt farming world events thing is the most bs rule coz its not even a rule

[limber kindle]

hype good

[wicked tinsel]

hype exist? surprise.

[heady flame]

im extremely hyped to be at work or have all my frens asleep during annie

[wicked tinsel]

on jeb

[hollow wedge]

I am so hyped to spend an hour sitting in an AFK pool waiting for my guild to get together

then hit a red war tower for 5 minutes and get 10le

[heady flame]

so is dying at the start btw

functionally the same, but one is punished

[wicked tinsel]

true

[hollow wedge]

I will run my alts into lava in the first 10s then solo and that would be allowed surely

if my party memebers can do that and be considered elligible for rewards, then so can my alts!

[wicked tinsel]

so what if you get carried for it? is it legal to be carried by someone else if you do stuff? is it illegal in general (obviously not), is it always legal?

[limber kindle]

the difference is there are more items being generated per player

[heady flame]

active spectator: must have a frying pan and NotG hammer

[hollow wedge]

my alts EARNED those items, they were active during the fight!

[daring plover]

i will report every single player that dies early in anni for afk farming, problem solved

[wicked tinsel]

so about this, does it give you specifically more items in a 4 person party than a 1 person party?

[limber kindle]

an alt isn’t a player

[limber kindle]

if 4 accounts get reward yeah

[hollow wedge]

#AltRightsMatter

[rugged siren]

so my alt doesnt deserve rights?

[heady flame]

my fren afked through last annie coz they left and didnt come back in time, i will now report them

[limber kindle]

what is their name? I can help u :D

[heady flame]

LawndaleLights

[wicked tinsel]

ok so if you get the rewards only on the one account is that better/ok?

[hollow wedge]

just play with your feet and it isn't a problem

[limber kindle]

I don’t see the point but yeah u can effectively do this with neg scrolls / removing armor

[wicked tinsel]

? how is that similar?

how does not using a build compare to not getting a reward on your other accounts i dont get it

[hollow wedge]

that makes no sense

[heady flame]

im positive that if you controlled both you would still get banned, coz the reasoning here is uncontrollable increase in annie drops entering economy

[hollow wedge]

@limber kindle 90% of your messages are just complete word salad

[limber kindle]

???? cause the other accounts add health (that is the only difference with the rewards removed)

[wicked tinsel]

yeah

annihilation having more hp and not having as much armor/lower stats arent the same
it seems like you are making that comparison

[limber kindle]

thanks? u aren’t putting any thought into readinf them from my perspective

[limber kindle]

bre what is the point of having a afk party members that don’t get rewards in ur party

[wicked tinsel]

annihilation having more hp?

that is the point

[limber kindle]

they are the same

[wicked tinsel]

there are very much not

they both add challenge yes, but wearing less armor for instance can often make it so you cant use a specific build due to skill point reqs

[limber kindle]

ur missing what I said about scrolls and the fact that a different build can do close to half the damage of another build if skill points don’t work (my bad I didn’t spell out every single letter of the idea)

[drowsy turtle]

This is the type of guy that deserves a perm ban

[gaunt stump]

Wont speak further about him, hes very petty

[drowsy turtle]

But most other people are just chill and even though they really broke the rules, I don’t feel like they really “don’t respect the rules” or will continue to evil so you need to get rid of them forever

This why I disagree with perm ban being the norm

Well congrats nynnf on reaching max level on your HICH

[north sun]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1161844369033277532/1282644810720870442/speechmemified_image.png.gif

[rugged siren]

real

[north sun]

||it is not the moderator named Shadow||

[heady flame]

https://tenor.com/view/foxxochan-wynncraft-gif-7822671465078224897

[safe swallow]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-brick-meme-break-explode-gif-13868715770986833670

[burnt cape]

Can i report level 60 half morph users for queuing notg

Griefing tbh i hate hate hate pfinder notg

[rugged siren]

yeah

its bannable, perm ban i think

[dusky isle]

wdym it is clearly the moderator named shadow!

[burnt cape]

Perfect thanks

[sharp mulch]

I also don’t think this whole “one warning that never resets” thing

I got banned in 2015 (when I was 10) for something super minor

How is it fair that I should be held accountable for those actions as an adult

[rugged siren]

what was the super minor thing

[sharp mulch]

I glitched out of the lobby map

[rugged siren]

happens

[sharp mulch]

I just don’t like how I have to be extra careful with everything I do just because 10 years ago I wanted to show people some cool builds out of the map in the lobby

[safe swallow]

I cant elaborate on too much more than this when it comes to bans, but (in your case) if you do get banned you can still appeal right away, since it has been more than 2 years since your current ban. We do take when the ban happened into account when dealing with appeals

your implied "current ban"

assuming you did get banned

[lilac meadow]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/755147286396272844/1333496893723906048/togif.gif

[real bluff]

After reading through way more of this then I should have I have noted two things

1. MOST the people argueing that their shouldn't be as many perma bans as there are have both been banned for something that deserved a ban, and are presenting absolutely horrendus examples of things to overlook (homophobia/racism based "humor" for example).

2. The staff team seems... less then thrilled to be on the topic at all, which I will admit is pretty disapointing; but understandable given the things people were trying to suggest shouldn't be punished as harshly.

I have personally never been banned or even punished in an online game so I have no horse in this race... However considering how sensetive of a topic it seems to be for both sides I'd be shocked if there isn't any reason to reconsider the ban procedure. (Not when it comes to homophobia/"cisms" those should definetly stay as is)

My prime example is Void being banned a second time for something that happend before their first ban. That seems incredibly unprofessional and targeted to say the very least (or atleast it seems that way as an outsider)

[safe swallow]

We are fine to discuss it, it's just the actual point they are trying to make is that they think some things shouldn't be perm bans and instead really long temp bans.

Which zeer has already explained at the start for why that is the way it is.

It just comes down to a personal disagreement of what qualifies as a perm ban between the poster and the staff team (mods + devs + admins).

And realistically, the ban system likely will not change in such a drastic manner.

The primary points that I think are reasonable are being able to have another mod overlook a case if you feel that your case is being mishandled, which is already the case it's just not clearly outlined anywhere.

The other is that the ban appeal system goes in assuming that you are guilty, and realistically in most cases you are. False bans do not happen often because we need what we consider to be hard proof (videos, etc.) In order to ban.

This was addressed by duat, who had received a false ban for an assumed macro. They openly recognized that what they did could be very easily mistaken as a macro.

Perhaps just a line in the ban appeal process saying that you can contest it if you believe you are innocent, however, as someone who handles ban appeals, people are very prone to lying when confronted about the rule breaking actions they participated in, so at some point there is a line where we shouldn't just let people get away with it because they are contesting it.

That's my thought at least

[limber kindle]

wym get away with it?

[safe swallow]

Breaking the rules and being fully let off the hook by contesting it and trying to hold firm that they didn't do it

[drowsy turtle]

if they lie they don't get their ban lifted?

I don't get why that's a concern

[safe swallow]

Ok how do you know if someone is lying or not then.

In duat's case, we had a video of what looked like to us as a very clear macro

And they were banned for it

[drowsy turtle]

you look at evidence?

[safe swallow]

....

Sigh

I'm not going to entertain you.

And regarding the perm ban system, I don't think it is particularly bad the way it is because you do not have to jump through hoops to follow the rules at all. Like 90% of the rules are covered by having common sense. The 2 years could be on the harsher side but to note, it is 2 years from the first ban you got. If you are really breaking rules back to back like that especially after your first appeal, I don't think it is unreasonable to assume malicious intent of some kind.

[drowsy turtle]

I'm being serious? like that's just how courts work anyways? not saying appeals are exactly like the court but you know what I mean

[safe swallow]

Go reread what I wrote.

[safe swallow]

.

Evidence is there of what seems to be a macro to us -> it's not unreasonable for people to lie in appeals. In fact it happens all the time

You say "just look at the evidence" it's not that simple

So don't treat it like it is

[drowsy turtle]

if your evidence isn't conclusive enough it's better to assume innocence?

[safe swallow]

Except it is what we consider to be conclusive

Yeah i kinda cba to continue this convo. Cya

[ebon cypress]

this sounds a little worrying, from duats video i would say if anything it was the opposite, and so if the mod team thinks that that looks like a "very clear macro" then i would think that there may have been a lot of false bans related to this stuff

[drowsy turtle]

^

[ebon cypress]

its already hard enough to tell apart single spell macros from illegal macroing

so if you cant tell the difference between manual casting and illegal macroing then whats stopping someone from just mass reporting people who are using legal macros

[safe swallow]

You would be incorrect in your thinking then.

[safe swallow]

...?

I think you are misunderstanding the situation

It wasn't just about a looping macro

It was about an afk macro and looping macro

Afk (not necessarily in lutho), standing still, head still, casting a spell cycle, seemingly not doing anything

[livid dirge]

so...if the evidence was like a year old but was used for a 2nd ban...

bc i think thats like the only part i give a real fuck about atm

[safe swallow]

i am unfamiliar with the case. I dont really have anything to say on it

[livid dirge]

ye, just hoping that changes bc thats the part it felt the most bs when i heard about thevoidness's case

[safe swallow]

Offmap bans are taken more seriously however, since it pertains to potential leaking of unreleased content.

Which is worth considering.

[livid dirge]

ye, the part that annoys me isnt the offmap but just evidences years ago can be used, to cause an unappealable ban when it shoulda started back then if the provider didnt have malicious intents to screw someone over by holding instead

[safe swallow]

Yeah idk holding evidence is kinda always not an ideal thing since people have leveraged things to try to get other people banned after a falling out

its something we try to take into account when we can but it isnt always possible.

[livid dirge]

it could also just be used to blackmail someone which is damn not cool if it stays lol

[safe swallow]

yeah

It is also worth noting that some things also recieve delayed bans due to internal discussion happening. For example, OP complained about being banned for the schadenfreude bug and (allegedly) hadnt abused it in a week or so. It doesnt necessarily mean we were given the evidence a week or 2 later, it could mean that it took a bit to discuss internally about what to do.

[safe swallow]

At some point there are offences that we will ban for (almost) regardless of how long it has been though (still varies slightly case by case ofc).

Which is also worth considering

[safe swallow]

also just to clarify, it wasnt a "years later" type thing.

[livid dirge]

o

[safe swallow]

And it also isnt necessarily just an offmap thing

[livid dirge]

heard it was like, a year or longer tho i might be in the wrong, mb if so

[safe swallow]

Im not going to elaborate further since it is their case and its not my place to share details on it

[livid dirge]

yeah

[eternal kindle]

if you haven't been banned in a game before you haven't lived

[gaunt stump]

I think instead of banning players for how they talk they should be muted perm

I think bans should be as harsh but not for toxicity, i think mutes should be handed out not bans

on the discord though toxicity should be ban

[gaunt stump]

thank you

[amber nest]

i've never been banned in a game neither, but agree, sometimes players are tilted, angry or just joking and a "warning -> mute -> second larger mute -> permamute" would be better for cases like spam of shout just like in other games, usually a permaban requires a lots of warnings or bans before so idk how that would be fixed, but at least the ones related to chat shouldn't be that much harsh, considering that a lot of playerbase is not mature enought (i started wynncraft at the age of 13)

and having a second ban shouldn't be correlated to the first report or ban but rather the situation of the first ban, that would fix a lot of unjustified permabans or ban with a lot of time

you can have extremely bad luck and be banned by one mod and then other mod that is friend with the first one, so the second one would be biased.

[languid elk]

Minor chat infractions are infact not a perma ban

[amber nest]

but what about multiple ones?

[languid elk]

if you continuously break the rules you should be punished 🤯

[amber nest]

for example, one person has a guild, and all guild members have an issue with 1 player, what if all players send reports, like 1 report then another one weeks later

would you ban that player just because he has a problem with one entire guild?

no, it should be evaluated if is not justified, and 1 situation doesn't always define another

this could be a joke for that guild, but how can the player defend against that behavior?

[languid elk]

All reports are evaluated by a mod

[amber nest]

if you have multiple reports from 1 community, the only thing that mods will see is "if you continuously break the rules you should be punished 🤯"

they won't see a lot behind the report

i can report you and tell a friend to report you either as a joke, that would be fun for us, but not for you

[languid elk]

Youre making up an imaginary scenario in your head

[amber nest]

nope, friends of mine do this in LoL for example

[languid elk]

this is not league of legends

[amber nest]

a lot of ppl here are toxic in a similar way

[languid elk]

multiple reports of the same incident dont make you suddenly get banned twice

[amber nest]

not all, and in fact is a minority but is a problematic minority

and in fact, doing it here is more easy since you can always look for a player to report "just because is funny"

also, there are multiple players that report players that follows the rules but in their POV, they are trolling or something related to misscomunication

[languid elk]

ok and?

[amber nest]

for example is not the same a player that drags mobs in a raid because is new and doens't know how the raid works, than a player draging mobs in a raid just because is fun

[languid elk]

You dont get banned if you get a certain amount of reports thats not how any of the system works on this server

[amber nest]

no, but if you had 1 ban for a report done by a player, then another player reports u, then is more serious right?

[languid elk]

What?

The player doesnt ban you the mod does

[amber nest]

this happens in other games, so its posible

[languid elk]

if you dont know how the fucking system works dont make up scenarios in your head to get mad at

[livid dirge]

Luckily our ban system isnt as bad as the autoban shit plagued in other major games with bots

which kinda is also why things takes a while when we got humans

[spice grove]

u know league actually has a report credibility system

so by joke reporting you are hurting yourself for when you seriously report someone

[livid dirge]

luckily a shitton of new accs can kinda just uh do a funny moment to bypass that if someone tryharded enuogh on league but thats another story

not like im near it anymore for now tho

[amber nest]

is really dificult, if you have a premade party with 4, you can joke and make a report for the other player, put in global chat and get up to 9 reports in 1 game

friends of mine has done it

is fun for them apparently

and also surrender when winning just to tilt the other player

[languid elk]

this is still not league of legends

[livid dirge]

bro is just too plagued by league

[spice grove]

the thing about league is that because of the sheer number of players they physically cannot check every report while in wynn they still go through the process of verifying evidence

[livid dirge]

ngl idk how to cure someones league addiction so i cant help

[spice grove]

yes the case with duat was incorrect but that happens a very small amount of the time (also I was asleep when it happened duat would not have been banned if I was there)

[languid elk]

People will bring up false bans and can literally only name 1 example which even got resolved

[spice grove]

yeah lol

[languid elk]

shows the accuracy of the current system

[spice grove]

it's by no means perfect but nothing ever is

well besides a 3 star roll

[livid dirge]

my more concerning part of it was the process taking uh...weeks afaik? to get responses tho idk how it was actually

[amber nest]

and vibrant rainbow beacon

[spice grove]

yeah that part really sucks and I don't think I can talk too much about the internal aspect

fortunately or unfortunately I do not get to deal with in game bans anymore

and I get to say my last appeal was freakcrow

[livid dirge]

considering how long the appeal process looked, its almost pursuading to just admit it, eat 1 and hopefully dont pull another to get on faster(unless you can somehow get records cleaned after proving yourself later on after admitting)

[amber nest]

what about other words that sounds bad but aren't? in spanish the word "n3gr0" is a color, so for example if i use it in a chat with friends, i could get a warning but could i appeal for that?

[upper ermine]

I think a lot of people are misunderstanding bans being permanent.

A question I have to you @drowsy turtle and others is: What do you think it would change if you got banned for X days instead of permanently

[spice grove]

context matters a lot

it's not league where you get auto punished just for saying a word no matter the context

[amber nest]

oh ok, thanks for clarifying

[spice grove]

but also you can't go around saying the r slur or n slur

because even in a friendly context saying certain things is hurtful

[upper ermine]

There's definitely a discussion to be had around temporal exploits but I hope most people would be pretty understanding that it is just hard to clarify whether an exploit is bad enough to be instantly bannable, just a warning or something in-between. We obviously have more experience of that designation that you (the players) but we could potentially communicate it when there are instances that are prevalent (like trap stacking).

Though even that is difficult with regard to the schaden bug because how do we communicate that without making it be exploited even more players since we just publicised an exploit?

[amber nest]

btw can i ask you something in private bc bee told me to ask other mods about that

[spice grove]

sure

[livid dirge]

ngl aspects being locked in raids was kinda a silent sign for the bug abusers to stop

[drowsy turtle]

If I feel like I deserved the ban I would not feel the need to appeal and gladly accepted my punishment, and it prevents cases where people that genuinely aren't malicious people from being denied access to the game for that long of a time

not appealing saves mod time ig

[upper ermine]

In my eyes it's pretty irrelevant if the ban is permanent or not, you appeal and get unbanned if you show that you still have an interest in being a positive influence on the community.

Mods are not unreasonable people, your past offenses will obviously be part of the discussion but I'd say unless you did something major you're likely to be unbanned given a decent appeal

[drowsy turtle]

they straight up tell you your second ban is unappealable

[livid dirge]

can i just ask a question thats off, were there people who appealed on a new forums account as they forgotten/lost access to their old emails

[drowsy turtle]

or at least the mod that banned me did

[upper ermine]

I feel like you should have to appeal though. I think it's healthy to actually acknowledge what you did and make some personal effort in order to return to the server

[eternal kindle]

and its very much advertized as guarenteed perma

[upper ermine]

Temporary bans just encourage going "Welp I'll play on another server for a couple of weeks" rather than actually acknowledging something you might have done wrong

[sharp flume]

it is not irrelevant whether a ban is permanent of not lol its the difference between not being able to appeal another ban ever and it not counting at all

[eternal kindle]

Maybe they could come back after the exploit is patched

[upper ermine]

It's been said many times that pretty much every ban is appealable

Stop spreading that misinformation about "anything after your first ban can't be appealed!"

[heady tangle]

can you make the appeal process look less like a forced apology on the player

[drowsy turtle]

"Since you have another ban already, you can’t appeal until 2 years after your first ban date"
verbatim

[upper ermine]

Many mods have said that this isn't true in this thread so I'm unsure what warranted that response (I'm guessing on your appeal?)

[drowsy turtle]

Forums said I had no perm ban attached to my account so I had to dm the mod that banned me directly

[upper ermine]

Obviously not up to me but maybe reviewing the appeal form is a good idea to allow for more expression. Though it could make them harder to review

[drowsy turtle]

and when asked about my ban this was pretty much the first response

[upper ermine]

Well we all know forums is very jank lol

[languid elk]

Its a 2 year temp ban

[drowsy turtle]

2 years seems excessive for some bans anyways

[upper ermine]

I'm obviously not a mod and don't have details of who you spoke to and what the circumstances were but mods themselves have confirmed that bans are pretty much always appealable

[drowsy turtle]

then ban them again when they actually act bad again, judge for yourself if the player deserves a longer ban and did they really intentionally and maliciously act the way they did

[storm forum]

That kind of rationale also assumes a level of investment that most players simply don't have

regardless of whether or not the ban was even warranted

[drowsy turtle]

'twas a mod manager too

like, if someone was like duping stacks of emeralds and have mythic stashes of course it warrants a longer punishment

[upper ermine]

Why would we make it more likely for bad actors to stick around and not have to make any effort to be unbanned

[drowsy turtle]

but if it's like, abusing schaden to get 1m dps in boss, or say like, using cat eyes to ignore blindness, there's some degree of leniency that could be made

[livid dirge]

personally idm Rmters being permaed off theri 1st tho surely the guy that got unbanned once was rather the rare case, right

[ebon cypress]

whats an rmter

[livid dirge]

or uh better worded as irler

[upper ermine]

The point I made is a very important one. Needing to appeal creates the need for you to make a little bit of personal effort and show the mod team that you actually care about wynncraft and want to return.

Temporary bans make it far to easy to just tap out for the duration and come back with no remorse, no consideration and no discussion

[livid dirge]

real-money-trading/traders

[drowsy turtle]

that they would get banned again? maybe with longer and longer ban times?

[upper ermine]

The appeal process creates a (small but meaningful) barrier to entry for returning to the server and it's one that can give us a very clear idea of whether you really want to return to the server and be a positive part of the community or not

[heady tangle]

i think the limit of 2 is a bit low

[drowsy turtle]

I don't think rule breaking necessarily hurts the game and the community as bad as you think they are doing

[heady tangle]

like eventually you should perma but 2 is really early

[languid elk]

This is crazy

[livid dirge]

ngl for permas with non major offenses i do consider 3+ usually the perma line ye

[upper ermine]

I've not mentioned hurting the game in any way I'm specifically talking about the fact that needing to appeal means that you have to make a bit of effort to get unbanned which imo is totally reasonable.

[livid dirge]

tho like uh...i cant defend schade abuse aside of testing

[heady tangle]

what if you reduce the ban times but only after they make an appeal?

[ebon cypress]

how do people even get banned for that

[upper ermine]

With this system appeals should obviously be reviewed quickly and I know that is always something that could be improved

[ebon cypress]

like are people really just abusing bugs in public lobbies

[drowsy turtle]

then there should be more chances given ngl, it should be stated more softly that if you repeatedly break the rules, heavier consequences will be given/we will be less likely to give you more chances

[heady tangle]

not make it immediete? post 1st ban?

[drowsy turtle]

trapstacking be like

[upper ermine]

I don't know what they do as I'm not a mod myself but reducing perm bans to temp bans based on appeals makes sense

[drowsy turtle]

yea I like this too, but it just unnecessarily gives mods a heavier workload compared to just giving the temp ban directly

[heady tangle]

true

[upper ermine]

Isn't that kind of common sense? The more you break our rules the less we trust you going forward

[drowsy turtle]

the wording that mods use maybe is a problem..?

[upper ermine]

It may be more work but you can't give a temp ban directly when you have no idea whether the person actually acknowledged what they did in any meaningful way

The appeal means the banned user has to engage in a positive way with the moderation team in order to get unbanned

It's a good step that I believe is necessary

[drowsy turtle]

most servers do this, and it's not ineffective by any means?

[upper ermine]

Most servers have far more clear cut scenarios because their game is far less complex. I've managed moderation teams on Minecraft servers for 7+ years

[drowsy turtle]

you are assuming players aren't negatively affected by getting denied access to the game which they certainly are if they like the game

you can't just like, oh i got banned for a month its no biggie I just play something else, wynncraft is boring anyway

[upper ermine]

Quite a lot of larger servers actually do permanently ban for lots of offences too

But we are talking about wynncraft here which is unique due to the complexity of the game

[upper ermine]

I mean yeah but they should be negatively affected if they break the rules

It is a punishment for a reason

[drowsy turtle]

are temp bans not the punishment and the negatively affecting?

[upper ermine]

And it's great that you personally think this way and will engage positively with the moderators in order to get unbanned (it seems this has worked out for you no?)

As I said previously how does a permanent ban that you must appeal affect you any more than a X day temporary ban that you don't have to appeal

[drowsy turtle]

that you feel scared about not appealing successfully?

[upper ermine]

If you make the appeal the ban will probably last the same amount of time OR SHORTER

And that's a good thing so that you understand the gravity of the situation isn't it? You should be careful about breaking the rules, you should ask for confirmation if something you've discovered seems a bit too good to be allowed

[storm forum]

It also probably chases off people that made a mistake and would otherwise be a good addition to the community

[drowsy turtle]

I guess, but mods seemed a bit alien in appeals, there was no effective conversation and mod response times are a bit long so it really just felt like a trial more than positive engagement

[livid dirge]

well the latter is questionable but aside of that

[heady tangle]

you try to prove you were banned wrongly and its deemed that the ban was still warranted -> time to unban remains the same
something along the lines of acknowledging you did wrong -> reduced time until unban (you could make this scale depending on ammount of previous bans)
you prove you were wrongly banned -> unban

[upper ermine]

And maybe that's something to improve! But I don't think the issue is the ban itself and in my opinion the appeal is so important for the mod team to gauge your state of mind about your ban and is very good for judging whether you should be allowed to play again

[drowsy turtle]

btw I'm really thankful that you are really considering my perspective

[upper ermine]

Yeah in my opinion the quality of the appeal and the level of remorse or genuine apology should factor into what happens with the punishment

[drowsy turtle]

yea, ideally mod response times would be quick and perhaps changing the perm ban to a temp one would be done quick too

[upper ermine]

Response times are obviously not something we could ever guarantee. The mod team isn't small I'm sure you know that and they all voluntarily do this work in their own time

[drowsy turtle]

this just feels more human, perm ban until appeal, appeal to see your attitude/sincerity and lower your punishment

[drowsy turtle]

done quickly and feel more interactively rather than just answering standard questions and a few days waiting until they decide if you deserve to be unbanned

[drowsy turtle]

I would also like to add that once I actually expressed my interest in appealing they said that they were not sure and had to consult other mods,
not that I have the option to appeal and they would consult other mods if my appeal can be accepted

I had to actively ask to start the appeal process and answer those standard questions

and they maintained "Hey, as of right now, im not sure if you can appeal or not. I still need to check for feedback."

[drowsy turtle]

If it’s just a communication problem, I take back what I said in some parts of this thread, but this definitely increased the distress I had during the second appeal and I feel like it should be addressed

[jade zodiac]

Prepare to Citied's comment about your ass format, just like mine:

[drowsy turtle]

If you viewed it unformatted it was really a long block of text that I wouldn’t have want to have read

[jade zodiac]

Yes, but the final product is formatted.

[heady tangle]

this is not a brilliantknight formatted post 💔

[wicked tinsel]

punished =/= permban

[wicked tinsel]

insane comment

[jade zodiac]

Yeah i get your point but 99% of this channel's posts are literally a wall of text.
Do you want to read that?
I don't think so...

[heady tangle]

most of them are fine?

[jade zodiac]

They are, but it's still a wall of text.
You definitely know that this channel would be better if most of posts were made structure.
The name of this channel should be in line with his own posts.

[heady tangle]

constructive =/= formatted

i get that readability is nice but this is just a feedback channel

[jade zodiac]

I knew you would answer like this.
And you may be right if not one thing:
As long as your position is constructive you can inertia make and formatted text to make it easier to read.

Yeah, readability is nice.
And unfortunately, it's just a feedback channel.
You right.

[wicked tinsel]

it should definitely be formatted tho

at least somewhat unless its a brief post

the goal is to be readable of course

[ionic pulsar]

Thanks pookiebear 🤗

[drowsy turtle]

freakcrowwwwww

[ionic pulsar]

big OP

[drowsy turtle]

My thread is blessed by the presence of the nirvana guy

[sly kestrel]

this thread never stops lol

[tough hornet]

THIS

like when you have gotten false banned or accidentally banned this just is such a shitty situation

[eternal forge]

I this sentiment but it’s just not worth redoing the entire appeal system for the 0.1% genuine false ban

Bans you disagree with do not equal false bans

Again, if you’re banned the mod already has evidence of you doing SOMETHING

Another thing to remember is (genuine) falls bans are removed from your record and don’t count towards anything

[tough hornet]

I see I see

[hollow patio]

I think the rules should be such that players know what is allowed and what isn't at any given time, without having to obsessively stalk the rules page and keep up-to-date with current events regarding rules at all times.

[limber kindle]

definitely

[eternal forge]

I never mentioned it btw but the two big reason you don’t make a list of bannable actions are hard to work with

1. You literally have to expose it to publicly say it’s bannable (obviously you don’t need a step by step guide, but you’re bringing awareness.) people probably wouldn’t have done it / looked into it if it’s quiet.

2. If you have the clearest most defined rules known to man, someone will come back with “well it’s not in the rules!” (Rules are added AFTER something happens. How would the moderators have known in 2013 to write about anni alts…)

Like, necron. Stuff they did was intentionally on the thinnest part of the rules that clearly was problematic but technically “not against the rules”. If mods aren’t allowed to punish for abusive behavior obviously intending to step around exact wording, the role is horrendous.

Like, if there’s a glitch where you totem “Secret Mob 7” from SE in this random spot and it spawns a billion mobs omg

The mods cant write “don’t totem mobs”, they have to say “unintended”.

[hollow patio]

But then corrupt or uninformed mods can abuse this and say anything they want is unintended, and punish based on that, which is probably worse

[eternal forge]

Cool, report the individual mod with proper evidence

I always hear this fear of the “corrupt” moderator except nobody wants to give examples

[hollow patio]

Reporting the mod here doesn't really solve the issue though, I think the appealling process should be more friendly towards the idea of false punishments

[eternal forge]

Again, if you’re banned there’s evidence

[hollow patio]

or well, punishments that should be reverted is better wording

[eternal forge]

I can’t and won’t say much on mod tools, but do know if they ban all the mods see it

Also fwiw they can’t start banning for “unintentional” grind spots without all the other mods questioning one odd mod banning people without any discussion on the location

Saying reporting the mod doesn’t work is also crazy, like, without bringing it all up it definitely does

[hollow patio]

It's hard to have trust in this system given prior situations involving the rules

[eternal forge]

I don’t know your past but again, they require evidence to ban

If the mod cant show it (to other mods) the appeal goes in your favor instantly

[hollow patio]

There was at least one crystal clear case of "staff member knowingly breaks/changes a rule, only for them, temporarily, for their own objective benefit, seemingly without punishment" situation a while back, and so many individual stories of sketchy stuff involving rulings

[eternal forge]

Ok and so go make a lot of noise about it until a response is given

I’m not saying witch hunt btw to be clear

Go to managers, admins, support team (not to ask unbanned, but to alert them), but saying “evil mod does crime” doesnt do anything without any context

[hollow patio]

I did bring it up then and I was told it was discussed between the team regarding where the rule should fall, but never was it mentioned that it is wrong for staff to do this "rule for me but not for thee" shenanigans

[eternal forge]

Then they probably got punished internally

no big deal, unless it happens again

[hollow patio]

You trust that, given all of the situations? If I did this, I would have been banned. Why do they get different punishments?

[eternal forge]

No way of knowing, but like I said to take that stance requires not just “this mod is bad” but “the entire moderation team knowingly is acting in their own self interest for ingame benefits”

When bluntly, if they want ingame benefits they have easier ways to do it

[waxen oar]

Chat based infractions should definitely be a chat based punishment tho? it doesn’t make sense to be permanently banned for saying a curse word or wtv

[eternal forge]

Again, chat based interactions ARENT a permanent

[hollow patio]

And yet it happened 🤯

[eternal forge]

Context matters

You know the case youre talking about, either you don’t know the context or are deliberately ignoring it

[hollow patio]

Overall I agree with the appeal system being more respectable, I think the current system needs tweaking (although I haven't had to engage with the in-game ban system for appeals) so that these "0.1%" bans that should be reverted are properly handled. I think having even .1% of bans being shenanigans is too high, and has a negative impact

(and appeal systems covering all appeals, not just perm in-game bans)

[eternal forge]

Tbf

The temp punishments are all short anyway afaik

Like you can live a week without chat if you said something bad womp

[hollow patio]

Idea of 'temp punishments aren't bad because they are temp' is wild

I think people who say bad things that warrant a mute should be muted, or whatever happens in that case

I also think that the current appeal system causes people to be unjustifiably punished, and knowingly so, and should be improved upon

[rugged siren]

this guy wants nelston unbanned..

[waxen oar]

Ppl should go to prison for life if they steal a chocolate bar!! If they only get a slap on the wrist they will do it again!

[winter panther]

less about the words youre saying and more about what they mean lol.... cursing is a really bad faith thing to bring up cause if someone gets banned for smth they said in chat it is NOT just like an f bomb or something asinine

[waxen oar]

I mean fair but the guy brought up homophobia and racism which are bad yes but def not permaban worthy

[eternal forge]

Yeah and I stand by what I said

[eternal forge]

Again, word choice,

Unjust implies blatant false bans

[winter panther]

some people make it perma ban worthy i will not lie

[eternal forge]

Like either say mods fake evidence or don’t, stop with the on the fence position

[eternal forge]

Nah disagree, if you are going to ragni and calling people the n word your existence on the server is a negative get out

[waxen oar]

Do you think that if someone says a slur irl they should go to prison for same amount of time as a murderer?

[eternal forge]

You either don’t understand the way Wynn bans work or are just genuinely stupid, your pick

[winter panther]

make a good faith argument for fucks sake man

what is that

[eternal forge]

Lmao what does that even mean in this context

[waxen oar]

Fraud charge vs racism

[eternal forge]

Ok so not as an insult do you genuinely not know the appeal process setup

That isn’t an answer

There is one, it’s on the forums, good or bad

This is what I mean with people coming in with either no experience with the system or only listening to “the worst case scenario” and saying they know the system

[hollow patio]

I'm not on the fence about anything, I don't know about bans specifically but I know at least one clear case of punishment without reason, which was later reverted but the appeal process should have been easier.

[eternal forge]

It should be, there are definitely faults, but all I’m saying is either stick with “mods are corrupt” stance or stop pushing the idea

[hollow patio]

At a minimum can you agree that mods can make mistakes? And that in this case, an appeal would have to be made?

And for at least these cases, appeals should be a better process?

[eternal forge]

Mods can make mistakes

I disagree that it’s even remotely on the scale the community says it is and has been
I agree you should make an appeal
I disagree you “cant” fight the case

[hollow patio]

Calling mods corrupt in here has caused at least 1 perm discord mute as well, so I want to clarify that I am not taking a stance on this and will not take a stance in here about this

[hollow patio]

I think the appeals process is useable but should be friendly/easier to use

[eternal forge]

My point is they basically implied mods fake evidence for their personal gain

Either fight the point or there’s no point in randomly dropping it in

[waxen oar]

Was the evidence ever disclosed

[eternal forge]

Idk let me open up the apps rq and tell you

Like wtf do you expect the response to be

[hollow patio]

I'm not taking a stance on that because I haven't experienced it myself and I don't know anybody close who has mentioned stuff like this, but I have experienced mods making mistakes and I think the appeals process should be made easier for at least that case, and for the potential case of bans without proper evidence

[eternal forge]

Mods generally don’t show their evidence in an appeal for the very simple reason mod tools are kept hidden

Which is completely fair, most games and services don’t actually

[waxen oar]

Idk smth like evidence

[eternal forge]

Evidence:

I was literally a mod for two years and I know the appeal process regarding evidence

Like your question also doesnt work, you say disclosed but to who? Publicly? Appeals are private

Yeah I stepped down because silver bull is a dogshit mechanic

Cool deleted message 🔥

It’s fine if they want to have it, it’s clearly not my place to say what can and cant exist

Just was so annoying after two years of doing stupidly complicated evidence for IRL trading (surprise, people do it secretly) and for the game to then add legal RMT so long as it benefits the devs (completely fine for them to do, it’s their game) was frustrating

Also just again, the fear of false bans is weird to me
You know they can like, unban you right, and like not count it towards your ban count

[waxen oar]

Think it comes partly from other mmorpgs like hsb where u get banned for interacting with the game at all (and the stories like duat)

[eternal forge]

I’m semi-familiar with HSBs cases of crazy bans, Wynn has some cool ways to prevent any weird cases (or try) around market and money thankfully

Wynn actually (to my knowledge) doesnt wipe you

It’s just easier to delete any duped items you own than do allat

[drowsy turtle]

It’s actually really fortunate that ratting is not a common thing in wynn or banning and stuff would be 10x more complicated

It also helps that you can accomplish most things vanilla

[limber kindle]

hmmm

that's one way to look at it xd (I would say wynntils being so good is even more impactful but ig it is hard to tell)

[drowsy turtle]

That’s true

I once jokingly said, wynntils gets more devtime than wynncraft 🔥
Which definitely felt like the case for early 2.1 where balancing changes were heavily hindered by devtime

[hollow wedge]

This thread is demented

[safe swallow]

This is also something we are working on.

Rule clarity and making updates of rules announced better i mean

[safe swallow]

Wipes don't happen yeah. Maybe all le/mythics depending on what was done (large amounts of duping for example) but no progress, classes aren't wiped, etc.

Your messages implying droves and droves of corrupt mods banning people for their own benefit is.....certainly a take

[safe swallow]

If a punishment is false then it is reverted yes.

[safe swallow]

.

[safe swallow]

It seems to have shifted from the topic in the post, to what the poster actually meant (they think that not everything should be a perm ban) to fearmongering about corrupt mods. Pretty wild shifts

Also we do take reports of potentially corrupt mod action very seriously. However, If you dont report it and it gets missed, then it is harder for us to do something about it internally. Claiming that "nothing will get done so why bother" isnt really a helpful stance because then you are ignoring the problem, and it doesnt necessarily get brought to our attention. If there is something like that going on, then we need to know about it. It is kinda as simple as that.

Its possible it gets discovered internally, its possible it doesnt however. If there is corruption with stuff backing it then make a report.

(If there isnt proof its something we will keep an eye out for in future and past actions by the mod but we cant completely do something without proof in any form)

[eternal forge]

“Mods are corrupt”
“No I won’t report it”
“Why isn’t anything done?? mods so bad!”

💀

[safe swallow]

yeah..

[stark tinsel]

Do your volunteer jobs terrible mods smh

[eternal kindle]

So when are we banning everyone in this thread https://discord.com/channels/143852930036924417/1284254511212400713

[stark tinsel]

Line em up like dominos

[burnt cape]

I know you probably dont care but imo gatekeeping is the only thing that makes the game fun for endgame players. If you want a general use build, use something from blues builds and you are good to go BUT 99% of the time the real gatekept builds are highly optimized and not that easy to get or atleast somewhat hard to play. Finding these builds and cooking up new strategies is the only thing we have, since there is no fukin real endgame lol. We are gatekeeping new exciting tech to keep it good and exciting after we put in a lot of work to find them in the first place. "Leaking" trapstacking after literally every decent raider has done it already is fine but I dont think its good sportsmanship doing it in general.

[frigid jetty]

nah we balling with about face nullifaction, to hell with meta

[tough hornet]

wrong channel homie?

[burnt cape]

Just a funny paragraph from the linked thread

[tough hornet]

OH LOL

[wicked tinsel]

true

[wicked tinsel]

ok but yeah that is a real argument tho
"if you kill someone you go to prison for life" (comparison to like duping repeatedly)
"if you steal something you go to prison for life but can get out if you say sorry" (comparison to like "repeated harassment of kmaxi" more minor type stuff)

its literally the same punishment just one makes you apologize (appeal)

[proven breach]

This whole thread really boils down to:
Mods thoughts:
Don't want much change because it makes things more complicated than it really is.
System is already working effectively.
Fine with allowing users to argue their case.
Very few false bans anyways
Players thoughts:
Want change in overall punishment system.
Some want racism and homophobia(? Very few, but weird nonetheless)
Some want punishments matching the crime (chat infractions with chat punishments [reasonable])
Way to plead case rather than just be assumed guilty.
No 2 year wait to reapply (conflicting points made on whether this exists, but shadow mentioned wiji waited his two years, so I'm not sure how this actually works)

Overall, I think allowing for the ability to argue a case is pretty reasonable. Forcing someone to claim guilt doesn't seem reasonable. Everyone has already referenced Duat, but some logical fallacies have been brought up ("well no one else made a 10 minute youtube video so false bans must rarely happen" isn't a real argument). I also do agree with chat infractions utilizing chat punishments. It'll achieve the same effect of teaching the player a lesson without the excessive aspect. However, homophobia and racism should be done at the discretion of a mod and shouldn't be allowed (if you have a joke, save it for your friends. The public chat isn't your living room). I think the perm ban system is fine, as long as they are appealable, then I don't see it as a big deal and it seems like more of a hassle to standardize. Finally, I personally feel like the time of infraction is pretty important. Someone mentioned being banned because of a year old screenshot. Understandably it was an out of map; however, it seems extremely excessive to punish based on a year old SS. Imagine punishing someone for something they said years ago, when they were a kid (There's a funny word people use for this, and I am certain everyone finds the actual action to be corny). So, this is definitely something that should be evaluated during the ban process (exceptions apply for severity of course).

[safe swallow]

it wasn't a year old screenshot by the way, it was a more recent screenshot. That's just misinfo

And we do take time since something happened into account. I don't think that is a fair assumption to be making when we don't punish in a manner like that.

(Re: imagine punishing someone for something they said years ago, when they were a kid)

regarding:

No 2 year wait to reapply (conflicting points made on whether this exists, but shadow mentioned wiji waited his two years, so I'm not sure how this actually works)
It is 2 years since your first initial ban. In wiji's case, they were banned in 2015 (when they were 10) re: #1339542287322976327 message
If they did get banned now, they would be able to appeal and have it accepted, since it has been more than 2 years since that initial ban

Some want punishments matching the crime (chat infractions with chat punishments [reasonable])
This is generally the case now, muting did not work for a while so it was given a tban or ban. If something is bad enough or spread to the whole server (via shout for example) i dont think it is unreasonable for someone to receive a ban.

("well no one else made a 10 minute youtube video so false bans must rarely happen" isn't a real argument)
I dont think anyone was claiming this

Overall, I think allowing for the ability to argue a case is pretty reasonable. Forcing someone to claim guilt doesn't seem reasonable.
If you are banned, then we have a video or some other form of proof of you doing something that is what looks to us against the rules. False bans rarely happen because of the standard of proof we require in order to ban someone.

When it comes down to it, I am all for the points brought up about potential bias in cases, and potentially having another mod (or manager) overlooking cases, however I think this could boil down to a line written in the appeal somewhere about bringing it up to managers if you believe your case is being unreasonably handled. However this does bring the issue that people who get their appeal denied (justifiably) always claiming that the mod is biased against them so it would need a bit of balance in some form

I dont think it is that much of an issue to have some barrier to entry to access the server after breaking our rules. Showing that you care enough about the server to reach out regarding your punishment and try to make things right and apologize for what you did is something that I think is a good thing. (This is arguing against the proposed only temp ban system by the poster)

[proven breach]

If that's what you guys do, then my point is obviously invalid. The issue was no one refuted (or at least I didn't see) that the SS taken outside the map was from a long time ago. If it was recent, then it's definitely more reasonable.

[safe swallow]

Also a ss out of map implies it was sent to people, so it's also an issue of leaking/potential leaking of unreleased content too

[proven breach]

Of course, but maybe you misunderstood or I'm misunderstanding. I don't think putting a two year timer on someone reappealing is reasonable. I don't think they should be able to do it constantly, but maybe 6 months to a year is a lot more reasonable, at least in my opinion.

[proven breach]

Understandable.

[safe swallow]

It was clarification since you said "idk how this wo4ks"

[proven breach]

If this is the case, then I assume we agree with the use of mutes, and punishments other than ban. The shout is always iffy, but nonetheless is a chat infraction. I also did mention that at mod discretion should be used for more serious violations. However, I think the use of mute, even if it's a shout, should be utilized more often (if it isn't already).

[waxen oar]

am i understanding correctly that guy got permad and had to wait 2 years to appeal over sending a screenshot out of the map?

[proven breach]

Oh okay, thank you. I'll reread it from that perspective instead.

[safe swallow]

Mutes are in the process of being used more

They were fixed like

very recently lol

[proven breach]

Another mod did claim it. I can't remember their user, but, while not verbatim, was an argument used

[safe swallow]

Wild argument 💀

[proven breach]

Ahh okay, so I assume ther was some kind of issue. That makes more sense.

[proven breach]

Of course, and I do agree that you guys likely have an arduous process you go through before banning someone. However, there will always be slip-ups, and it's not a bad thing to give someone a chance to make their case. If your evidence is more than enough, then you can either deny the appeal, or inform the player that they need to supply their own evidence of innocence. In fact, no appeal should ever be done by the other player (if they are claiming innocence) without providing their own evidence first.

[safe swallow]

I wouldn't particularly be opposed to it being lowered in some form. A year could be more reasonable

[proven breach]

I see, and I don't agree with the temp ban system anyways. I think your guy's perm system is probably more effective in ensuring people don't break the rules again (Similar to what terminated was saying).

[proven breach]

I can agree that a year seems optimal, six months might be too light of one

[proven breach]

I feel like, and I don't know how possible this is, that two mods (one involved and one not) should be involved in an appeal process if a system for claiming innocence is implemented. Without the player asking, I feel like this would prevent some claims in the first place. How a mod would be designated is obviously hard to decide, and thinking about it more, it will definitely be somethign extremely difficult to implement. However, merely an idea I thought might prevent it.

[safe swallow]

I mean thats kinda what the current system does, where you can reach out to managers if you feel your case is being mishandled

its just never really put into writing anywhere that it is something you can do

[proven breach]

Maybe that can be something added to the appeal area. A disclaimer in text, and they can request it in forum. Obviously players who are denied will likely use it, but I doubt much would change because that mod would have the same information as the previous mod. (Not saying to make it a checkbox, but jsut an extra tidbit of info)

[safe swallow]

yeah perhaps

[drowsy turtle]

Obviously idk how lenient second ban appealing is, so maybe you guys do accept a lot of second ban appeals, which I think makes the perm banning system more justified.
Many of things that I said in this thread came from the fact that when appealing my second ban, the mod manager said that “Since you have another ban already, you can’t appeal until 2 years after your first ban date.” when i asked about my ban

And that they had to ask other mods for opinions if I could appeal, and I had to actively ask to start the appeal, and then they still maintained “Hey, as of right now, im not sure if you can appeal or not. I still need to check for feedback.”

Apparently from what other staff are saying, this wasn’t supposed to happen and bans are always appealable

[frigid jetty]

Im not sure what your salt is, you got your appeal accepted, just take the W and stop absuing bugs?

[eternal kindle]

because it was never about getting the appeal accepted?

[frigid jetty]

It aint your thread dude, how do you know the original intent

original intent was buried what, nearly 3000 messages ago

[burnt cape]

Also im pretty sure dude admitted to this thread being made because he couldn’t appeal his ban

[drowsy turtle]

I dont get why you are being this condescending, even if my case has been resolved and yea I can not break the rules, but it doesn't mean there aren't problems that can be addressed

[drowsy turtle]

and I encourage everyone to take a read of me and hotaga's conversation with Terminated

I'm glad that at least one staff has paid effort to consider my perspective and agreed with some parts of my sentiment

[drowsy turtle]

this just feels more human than the current system and I like this the most, but the reason I proposed temp bans directly is to lessen workload on mods

[frigid jetty]

What you interpret as condescending i view as a third degree, its not like you're just absolved of past actions by putting your best foot forward now

[stark tinsel]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1047866014387404830/1338503563537682517/5436345654363456.gif

[stark tinsel]

If only muting was used during my black pc incident 😭

[stark tinsel]

You can't re appeal your first ban til 2 years but you should be able to appeal your 2nd ban right away. But will most likely get rejected if your 1st ban is recent ish

[heady tangle]

are you permad

[stark tinsel]

Been banned for a year and a half now blud

[heady tangle]

i wasnt active when u got banned lmao

[stark tinsel]

But not because of my shouts

[heady tangle]

i think

[stark tinsel]

You active now? What guild are you in

[heady tangle]

joined seq cus they graid like crazy

p nice

[stark tinsel]

Oh nice, if I ever get unbanned you're welcome in mag ig lmao

[drowsy turtle]

yea the mod said that I can't appeal the 2nd ban

[stark tinsel]

That's weird, even though my 2nd appeal was denied fast I at least got to make one

[upper ermine]

Good luck with your perfect utopia I guess where players that try to abuse any inch you give them don't exist...

[upper ermine]

They simply can't, decisions are visible for other members of the team and as long as the whole team isn't corrupt then it would be mentioned and resolved...

[upper ermine]

I don't think this is fair, lots of individuals from the mod team have expressed that the system is nowhere near perfect and that it may be possible to improve

Contrary to what may be popular believe from some players, the mod team aren't out to get you and genuinely want to provide a safe atmosphere for all to enjoy the game

[drowsy turtle]

I don’t feel like they tried to understand the rationale for pushing for temp bans instead of perm bans and just thought that it would just encourage rule breakers to continue rule breaking cause the consequence becomes less

Or just state that this is how they do things

Stating that “You break the rules, why would we want you here. You knew the rules and still broke them you deserve the consequences” was less than helpful

Sorry if I’m being too critical of them

They did help clarify certain things

[latent pine]

Guh, thevoidness

I remember him getting banned for setting up dad joke bot

Everything was fine until someone said n-word

[upper ermine]

I mainly mean don't think that these conversations have gone unnoticed by the mod team

But tbh I think it's primarily a messaging issue rather than the actual functionality of the system

[drowsy turtle]

Oh you mean like, internally

[drowsy turtle]

Reporting him to get him permanently banned right after he got unbanned is nasty af

[latent pine]

I'm honestly not sure what was first, both of these were roughly at the same time

[proven breach]

I want to mention, Shadow and I had a conversation in this thread not too long ago where he acknowledged some of the problems brought up in here. He still mentions thst the perm ban system works better for them, but he has agreed that lowering the reappeal time and utilizing mutes is something to consider. He also mentioned that the appeal system could be improved, which I feel was a major complaint made.

[languid elk]

this is not what happened

[pure wyvern]

I also want to point out that "removing players from the game" is a far better alternative to "they make many other players never want to play again". Some people can genuinely make the game so unfun to play that you don't want to touch it anymore

[sharp flume]

the idea is that a temp ban works like a warning

[drowsy turtle]

"Some people can genuinely make the game so unfun to play that you don't want to touch it anymore"
That's fair but that's very few cases, even stuff like fly hacking doesn't really affect anyone else

[pure wyvern]

Except it's always perma bans for some reason..?

[pure wyvern]

Yeah I'm more so thinking of the bans we never hear about like racial slurs or PDFiles. People/topics that are genuinely cancerous to the entire player base

Free my man @main sage he was such a goat with ??? runs. Even now asking for help in party finder with Randoms feels so empty without him 😮‍💨

[wicked tinsel]

"warning" lmao

[drowsy turtle]

Yea I totally agree those players should be removed promptly, and I believe that real perm bans should only be reserved for those people

perm banning for everything and only giving two chances is too harsh

[wicked tinsel]

technically theres some verbal warnings but

[drowsy turtle]

I kinda disagree, temp ban is already a punishment in of itself. People who truly like the game wouldn't just shrug off a 7 day forced break from wynncraft, and it also implies that further bans will be longer

and I don't think people really just care enough to go on the server just to break the rules and get banned again over and over

[languid elk]

these 2 messages back to back is so funny

[pure wyvern]

It was an unrelated message, the dude is very cool 😭

[safe swallow]

Fr

[safe swallow]

Oh how naive..

[main sage]

it is though
what

2nd ban was for an offense that happened before 1st ban
like a year before the 1st ban

[languid elk]

he edited his message

dont remember what it said before but it wasnt true

[main sage]

oh

[drowsy turtle]

I just corrected a typo

pretty sure I didn't change anything important

[safe swallow]

it implied nihilus was the one that reported him i think

him being voidness

[drowsy turtle]

the time I edited is 9:29pm in my timezone (you can see that by hovering over the (edited sign)), and Bard replied at 9:52 pm

all I did was fix some typo or change up some words, and Bard was replying to the current version of the message

[drowsy turtle]

I have no idea who nihilus is nor the people involved in the ban of voidness

[safe swallow]

🤷

The way it was written implied the person you were responding to was the one doing it

the correcetion of a typo fixed it

[drowsy turtle]

oh nihilus is the meleebound guy

[safe swallow]

yes

[latent pine]

No, I didn't
I barely report people

I don't think I was even online at that time

Why would I report someone for harmless dad joke bot, actually, people went with tje joke too far and he got caught in a cross-fire
And regarding ??? situation I had no idea what was happening there

I really appreciated his dedication in that project and, to say that, I was impressed by his accomplishment. We should appreciate people like that, not ban them

[upper ermine]

not that I think its relevant to this thread but aren't the two things completely seperate

what does completing a quest for people have to do with breaking unrelated rules

[languid elk]

He was breaking the rules while carrying ???

[sharp flume]

he was like robin hood free him

[drowsy turtle]

People duping in p2w servers to crash their economy and giving people gear worth thousands of dollars🔥

[livid dirge]

~~Ngl bro should be unbanned just to get hit by all the ??? bug abuses ~~

[main sage]

yeah also ban void matter dupers and trapstavkers

smh

[eternal kindle]

what exactly?

[hushed onyx]

well to be fair he used a lot of bugs actually

but even so while bugs like dupe glitches are obviously harmful, trapstacking and such are maybe remotely harmful in some very obscure way, what he used was way beyond harmful and actually pretty far into positive for everyone

as everybody here already said, mods can never judge every case perfectly because of the gray areas

[latent pine]

^

[hushed onyx]

so the moderation principle is down to "how bad is this person for the community objectively"

if this person is GOOD for the community in every possible i way i dont think it should be punished

that being said, im aware voidness didn't get banned for ??? so that's just to answer to those who say he should've been

whether he didnt get banned for reasons i said above or just that mods got to the other ban reasons first, idk

i wanna believe the former but idt we'll ever know

[upper ermine]

I don't know anything about the situation

You can't simply say that because someone does a bunch of good things for the community that they get a pass for doing some bad things on the side

Again I don't really care about this specific situation but that principal is completely flawed

[hushed onyx]

well they break the rules, but does that really always imply something "bad"? like yeah in 99% of the cases it obviously does so its safe to assume so but if you think about it there very much can be exceptions

[eternal kindle]

I mean sure but there's clearly a difference between a 13 year old fly hacker and someone getting perma'd on a 2nd offence using popular exploits and popular/mainstream tech (like trap stacking: #1284254511212400713)

I don't think its unreasonable to ask the moderation team to have more discretion because there are many cases of dedicated players getting perma'd off things that are hardly that bad

but id rather not go back into the "what deserves a ban" conversation

[upper ermine]

I'm not aware of people being banned for trap stacking but it's beside the point I was making.

We have rules and if they are broken then they are punished in accordance to their severity. Whether your account is suspended in the interim is not relevant.

Someone using a widespread atree bug will be more likely to get unbanned than a rage hacker so I don't see your point

"hardly that bad" from your point of view of having very little knowledge on a particular situation. So many people comment on this one situation and then affix a "I don't really know what else they might have done" to the end

As zeer said a long while ago you need to take with a grain of salt random opinions and rumours you hear about this kind of stuff. It's no different to any other part of Wynn. There's constant misinformation about upcoming features, announced or unannounced; complaints about supposed delays that don't exist or reasons for said delays.

Most people that commit any wrongdoing will claim their innocence. Especially in the absence of publicly available evidence

[drowsy turtle]

but does the mod actually check whether you got banned for using a widespread AT bug or if you got banned for e.g. duping le on your second ban, without you actually telling them?

[upper ermine]

I'm not going to delve into what the moderation team (which is not me) does as a procedure but you can't really think that they are incapable of checking someones ban history given they make an appeal. It's an important piece of information when reviewing any appeal to have the context

[drowsy turtle]

well, I know that they are capable to do so, but should they be doing that?

cause in no where does the appeal process suggest you need to mention the details of your first ban

in practise, do mods actually take the extra step to do that?

[summer lodge]

I’m not sure a yes or no would satisfy you there

[proven breach]

I think the point they're making is that trap stacking wasn't banned, despite it being a bug. They are asking that there be some "discretion" behind the ban, but I think a better word would be clarity. For example, an explanation on what kind of bugs are more serious. I might be botching that recent part, but basically trap stacking is a bug that was abused by a good amount of the community (and not banned like you mentioned), yet there might be cases where the player thinks a bug is pretty harmless, yet they receive a ban for it.

I have no say here, this is just an interpretation.

[upper ermine]

and you're completely right but it would be an unending and pointless task to try to categorise every bug that arises on some kind of scale for people to gauge how far they can push things before getting banned

it leads to people hovering on the edge deliberately, attempting to find and abuse loopholes and then later justify it

[safe swallow]

^ this is true, it has happened in the past

[upper ermine]

not to mention that a lot of bugs aren't known by us until they're somewhat fixed so how can we categorise gatekept bugs until they are public?

i would absolutely love if there was a perfect solution to it because i fully agree that there is a fine and VERY gray line between "tech" and exploiting a bug

but you've got to trust us that if you end up on the wrong side of that line by mistake that the mod team will generally be lenient in those cases after you submit that appeal

[safe swallow]

(people werent banned for trap stacking btw)

[upper ermine]

Yeah i thought not but im not a mod so didnt know for sure

[safe swallow]

I cant really elaborate on it much but there is a major difference between schadenfreude bug and trap stacking

lol

one can be done in normal gameplay, and schadenfreude you actively need to spam the chestplate on and off in combat (or the aspect on and off)

you are not doing the latter in normal gameplay

lol

[upper ermine]

not sure i fully agree there because its not normal gameplay to specifically have f3 open and look at a pretty exact pitch value to trigger the stacking mechanic

[safe swallow]

its more of how possible it is without intending to do it

like are we gonna go around banning people for casing arrow bomb at a certain pitch lol?

no thats silly

[upper ermine]

but the exact problem is visible here. its NOT simple to clarify these things so how can we be expected to do that for every exploit ever for all eternity 😂 its just not workable

[safe swallow]

yeah

[frosty moth]

stacking was pretty easy to do by accident too

[upper ermine]

people made client mods that told them to look up or down lol

[safe swallow]

shadenfredue (which OP had been banned for, as mentioned earlier in the thread) wasnt something that could be done by accident lol, you had to be intending to do it which makes a difference

[upper ermine]

the rabbit hole always goes deeper and it is (maybe unfortunately) down to you as a player to judge whether its gone to far. It should ALWAYS be reported even if its "harmless" or "minor" and if you're punished for it then you'll have to accept it, and if you want to continue playing then please appeal!

[safe swallow]

But yeah exploits will always be a case by case thing, and we cant just say if you do <steps> this one is fine cause its tech, but if you do <steps> this is exploiting so dont do it.

[upper ermine]

yeah intention is a big difference you're right

[safe swallow]

thats just not reasonable

[safe swallow]

..? Lol?

[safe swallow]

I know you didnt, just the way it was worded implied you did, even though you didnt. And it was changed after a minute to clarify

[latent pine]

okay

[burnt cape]

Granted people who did it shouldnt be banned but what about those who made guides on how to do it or admitted to using it, does that not clearly demonstrate intent? And even more so encourages bug abuse which in my opinion is way more harmful than one player abusing a mechanic. Where do you draw the line?

[safe swallow]

there isnt a clear line. It is always a case by case basis.

and its for the best that we dont give a line for it too

[safe swallow]

see reasoning

[frigid jetty]

-# Bruh its still going 💀

[fathom yew]

What is this channel and how did i get in here

[spice grove]

you can just jump and cast bomb below you while falling with shield active

https://youtu.be/Yslw2ZzF7I4?si=ZgzqxYBMPu-Z2GfI the pitch method is also pretty easily eyeballable I think

not really super important to the argument but just wanted to put it out there that there's way more freedom with trapstacking

[heady flame]

Well duh freedom is an archer weapon

[upper ermine]

I know but this isn't the method that many used because it took longer and was more annoying

[bleak latch]

the noteblocks on this go kinda hard

[lilac meadow]

Á

[open hazel]

They always make us live in fear 😭😭🙏

[polar merlin]

people use the f3 screen to target specific pitch values for swimming, elytra flight and parkour in vanilla minecraft. vanilla gameplay has quite alot of analogies to the f3 trap stacking method

[north sun]

45 strafe

[dusky isle]

f3 my beloved

[wicked tinsel]

true

[upper ermine]

You kinda missed the whole point. We were discussing whether people could be proven to be using these bugs intentionally

And if you have your F3 menu open just to look at pitch values to trap stack then you're definitely doing it intentionally aren't you

[left cargo]

its normal gameplay for me to use f3 + 3 too look at 70k ping during raids 🫠 (ik its unrelated but i just want to play the game 😭 )

[vague dome]

i mean, i have a mini f3 screen open at all times

[upper ermine]

Again missing the point

[rugged siren]

call me crazy, i think the point is that if you are knowingly abusing a bug that gives you an advantage, youll get banned

except if you are friends with every mod so no mods can review your case without any bias

[vague dome]

im saying that it would be impossible to prove that im specifically using it to trapstack

[proven breach]

"Look Mr. Mod, I always have F3 open, so how can you prove that I was using it to trap stack, despite traps tacking consistently?!"

Doing it once, okay it happens, twice, alright a lucky chance, but by the third time you're clearly doing it with intent.

[signal kelp]

what if im like realllyyyy really lucky and i get it every time but completely coincidentally and also i keep f3 open at all times because i like how it looks and also i just happen to have a mod installed that helps me do it consistently but i dont actually use the mod i just accidentally downloaded it

what then huh

[spice grove]

https://tenor.com/view/guh-heartbox-guh-heartbox-gif-gif-1246243637496544780

[dusky isle]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1183930515028443137/1332878760692682793/attachment.gif

[stark tinsel]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1046810442238021693/1277335210098299000/utter_woke_nonsense.gif

[proven breach]

I'm assuming you are utilizing the powers of the dernic gods, and shall be punished by being forced to decipher Lari's logic on why she let millions die, instead of one parasite. Good luck.

[humble geyser]

gavel has fallen millions must die

[main sage]

you respondend to a 3 week old msg

[humble geyser]

You responded to a 22 minute old msg