Assassin Class Feedback

[vivid jungle]

Since the last one got locked, I figured I'd start a new thread for some more brainstorming.

__Shadestepper __

In a much better spot now, being given strong aspects, quality of life, and backstab damage boost. Though there are still a few abilities that could be helped

Making Harvester not rely on kills and instead grant mana for landing a successful backstab/powder special. It could be for every 2 marks and have a limit so that you aren't printing too many mana from crowds. Additionally it could also grant if the mobs die to another player.

Death Magnet

Trickster

I think a rework was announced, so it'll be intriguing to see what it will turn out to be. Debuff heavy archetype?

Acrobat

Make sure you time your hop to not overlap with your second lacerate while cycling or you might be propelled too high. Make sure you're mentally keeping track of your sluggishly damaging smoke bombs that will blink out of existence after 5 seconds. Make sure you aren't off pace with those multi hit connections, every second counts! Make sure to also maneuver around the boss within breathing distance because that's how you deal your best damage.

Can you do that? Alright, you're good to go.

Figured to reignite the conversation here in case some ppl had ideas.

[lavish meteor]

The assassin meta rn is meteor spam

[west ivy]

I wish for leap/hop rework next year

(1 second cool down and only costs 2 AP points like selvut proposed)

[languid jacinth]

wall jump feels super awkward to use i find ngl

like you’ll just bounce over and over again off the walls even if you don’t want to

[lavish meteor]

I think acrobat should get grounded

[vivid jungle]

You hold shift to not wall jump, but eh

[languid jacinth]

considering the proposed changed that linny talked about i dont think this is necessary anymore

[languid jacinth]

yeah but that also activates righting when i often dont want to.

[vivid jungle]

You’d have to rework the entire archetype from the ground up and I don’t think people will take that lightly.

[languid jacinth]

acrobat should probably have a few reasons to touch the ground here and there

[lavish meteor]

did you two get what I said

[languid jacinth]

uhh

[rare wharf]

ok but i still want to say that removing the major id from cbomb seems kinda silly
isnt it just like
not cherry bombs anymore, only the name is

[patent sage]

cbomb should be a trick node and the current mid should just buff that, wild take

[compact summit]

How about we nerf assassin I think it's too good rn

[lavish meteor]

it was a foxxo meme

[languid jacinth]

oh lol

[compact summit]

Actually I think acrobat should be an underground archetype like a mole

[patent sage]

how about we nerf the shade fableds 👍

[rare wharf]

ok but the cherry bombs are what makes the weapon cool

[patent sage]

just give nck less scaling on the fabled

[rare wharf]

removing them makes it just another fabled in the pile

[languid jacinth]

[compact summit]

LMFAO WHEN IS THIS GONNA STOP

[languid jacinth]

lmfao

[patent sage]

give a node that's 300% scaling cbombs, and the mID splits the cbombs to 3 firecrackers with 150% scaling per or smth like that

and make cbomb node block wall of smoke

[west ivy]

Facts

https://discord.com/channels/143852930036924417/1302078596751425628

[woeful river]

Ass ass in is good rn. just buff base dps dagger !!

[languid jacinth]

there are a lot of fundamental issues with both Acrobat and Trickster rn that justify quite a lot of work aside from just increasing the dps of the weapons

increasing the base dps would solve literally nothing because there is quite a drastic difference between the viability of shade compared to both acro and trickster

[warm sundial]

https://tenor.com/view/buzz-lightyear-gif-21327280

[west ivy]

Soooo reaaal

[vivid jungle]

Agree

[languid jacinth]

burst dps 🤯

[vivid jungle]

Curse burst

[proven stag]

Really putting the "ass" in assassin. It's just an unfortunate class

[vivid jungle]

It has two ass’s in its name

[old badger]

Just delete it tbh

[spare oyster]

picking out the one of many idea i’ve said in the past

i think black hole should increase how frequently smoke bomb ticks are, as it just isn’t really that useful on its own rn

there are like many nodes on the shade side of the tree that are just outright useless
idc if it’s optional, i WANT a reason to use those optional abilities that aren’t just filler

[dim idol]

(Black hole should probs also reduce animated blocks used)

[spare oyster]

or just make it a particle-based animation

they need to move away from armor stand spam, it’s ancient

also acro takes a lot of effort in spellspamming for it to do mediocre damage, which makes no sense

i’d expect a high effort/high risk (since you gotta be near mobs to even land your spells) to do a good amount of damage

[slow trail]

this is cool

i mean itll gigacharge marks but .

actually.

hm

[patent sage]

mid where black hole does the gawrick thing

balance out the window it would be funny

[vivid jungle]

How do you think of harvester applying from simple backstabs/powder specials

And a limit to how much you can get

[spare oyster]

that was kinda what i was going for, i want black hole to make smoke bomb the sole utility spell to quickly max out marks, instead of using spin attack constantly

this might make fatal spin useless after that, but shade rn is very weak in the spin attack department so i think that’s a problem of its own

[slow trail]

i mean it’s a cool idea tbf

[spare oyster]

the world if fatal spin was optional if that was the case

shade is just not meant for spin attack currently

[slow trail]

yea

i mean all it’s really used for is a utility tie in

[spare oyster]

i hope to see black hole to be an actual good piece of utility 🙏

and death magnet/harvester, but i don’t have ideas in mind for them if i ever said any

[slow trail]

tbh i haven’t really given shade much if any thought recently

i feel like trickster issues kind of overshadow it

but ngl all of assassin feels quite fixable

[spare oyster]

that’s fair
shade rn is in a good state but qol isn’t polished yet, but not worse than the other archetypes

at the very least i’d expect black hole to be visually changed for the shade side

[frail quiver]

give black hole the chilling snare animation in reverse but ourple

[slow trail]

yea 😭

[languid jacinth]

btw i just did some testing, the Jasmine Bloom aoe aspect doesn't actually do anything

the visual effect of Jasmine bloom will increase proportionally but the hitbox stays exactly the same

[dim idol]

wasnt the jasmin bloom aspect thing mentioned before

[languid jacinth]

was it? didnt read it then

[dim idol]

ig it didnt get to the AT team

or they ran outa devtime either 1

[languid jacinth]

well now that acro and trickster have the spotlight, it can

[slow trail]

yeeeaaa lol

[vivid jungle]

@slow trail

[royal nimbus]

gonna aggre so ct will not add this

but seriously mana printer abilities bad, just rework harvester

[slow trail]

not familiar enough with shade to have an immediate take on it

but in general i dislike at mana batteries, esp for things where its just given passively through normal gameplay (ie depersonalization)

[royal nimbus]

printing mana on backstab when nirvana exists making them be mana gain instead of lowering cost

[sinful hornet]

i have to wonder, if cbomb was made into a trickster node, what would the majorid change to?

[vivid jungle]

It's not really passive since you'll have to backstab something to get it.

Only passive thing is the mark appliance.

[sinful hornet]

+Smoke Bomb: Cherry Bomb turns into a single bomb that deals damage over time with shorter range.

[slow trail]

i think i wrote something at some point

[sinful hornet]

https://tenor.com/view/chalmers-simpsons-may-i-see-it-talking-gif-11870196

[slow trail]

i can’t find it

[sinful hornet]

https://tenor.com/view/catnapping-cat-kidnap-cat-steal-that-was-useful-cat-bag-gif-5865080542707714620

[languid jacinth]

[errant vale]

Big brain wtf

[languid jacinth]

@slow trail what if Wall of Smoke’s ticks were at different intervals per bomb? this would allow it to synergize better with Weightless as currently all bombs ticking simultaneously do not allow Weightless to proc off each bomb like it could before

[slow trail]

based actually

[languid jacinth]

[cosmic linden]

what was the proposed change?

[vivid hull]

I only ever use black hole for CC. As is, an hmelee build might want it for hitting more enemies with quake if they don't take delirious gas. Which also extends to spellshade ig.
It just kinda is... mediocre for that at best.

[cosmic linden]

block hole when cci

[vivid jungle]

What was the weightless change they implemented again?

[compact summit]

weightless has a 1 tick cooldown

so multiple hits that apply at the same tick will proc weightless only once

which is also what completely killed trickobat sustain

[dim idol]

(it also cooked a good portion of acrobats and turned them towards more sustain)

[vivid hull]

Yeah I'm not even sure the weightless nerf was meant to be a nerf, it seems to have been more of a rework the unintentionally killed assassin's strongest mana sustain ability. (although there wasn't much competion to begin with, harvester needing kills and shenanigans just being... odd)

The fact that a bunch of acro's abilities no longer synergize like they are supposed to could prob be it's own thread lol

[modern wren]

Eyyy same idea they should 100%

[inland light]

acrobat dps is sad

trickster is sad er diversion needs a rework

wouldnt it be cool if like diversion would kill/damage a clone if one of your teammates near you/a clone and give them and you a buff like damage or smth

[languid jacinth]

@slow trail will dash stacking return...

[compact summit]

Yes I'm adding it back tomorrow just for you

[languid jacinth]

[compact summit]

Predictable atp

[languid jacinth]

[spare oyster]

it wasn’t even broken…

[slow trail]

not unless we intentionally add it as a functionality but i think people generally did like that idea

[slow trail]

https://youtu.be/sfmIxEE8OvQ?si=wo8O2m93CvS-xFXp

[spare oyster]

naw it wasn’t broken

[slow trail]

if it got added to dancing blade there would be . a cap of like ten probably. lmao

[spare oyster]

that was all the tomes fault

[vivid jungle]

That'd be kind of cool

Keeping track of your dashes to then unleash a huge blow.

[patent sage]

give it an aspect ✨ (oops pinged)

[modern wren]

I was thinking this. Like trickster clones take hits for nearby allies, and then when the clone dies they cast a spell and inflict status effects

Last laugh but more and actually team support. Its offensive support by taking hits for allies and makes enemies weaker thru status effects

[patent sage]

new weapon mID crying after this change

[modern wren]

What new mid?

[vivid hull]

I was thinking that Diversion should give mana instead of that tiny amount of overhealth. Trickster has horrid mana sustain on its own.

[modern wren]

Yeah trickster also needs mana sustain. Maybe when clones die trickster gets mana?

[vivid hull]

I like this too

[modern wren]

Its simple but like what else could work

And it incentivizes playing near allies so your clones absorb hits, die, you get mana and the clones all vomit spells and debuff the enemy to hell and back

[vivid hull]

They still got a bunch of archetypes they reworking in the back, I hear that Trickster is one of them.
A perk that leaves a decoy where you dashed from when you enter vanish would be so cool

[patent sage]

laugh casts meteor

[modern wren]

Lol what

[patent sage]

sounds like an out of season april fools but somehow it's real

[vivid hull]

Yes, new fabled dagger from outer void makes last laugh cast meteor instead of spin attack

[modern wren]

What item has that

… another class’s spell

[vivid hull]

And it works with entropy ID too

[modern wren]

Thats cursed af

I was thinking what they could do with trickster is a “whenever a clone dies, all other live clones cast a spell” and the spell can either be the last spell you cast or like random or something

[vivid hull]

Well no mages are using entropy any more, arcanists use psychokinesis and entropy don't work on ophanim any more. Nobody played rift to begin with
It would be REALLY funny if assassin got more use out of a mage specific major ID than mage does

[modern wren]

Me who plays riftcanist(i dont have psychokenesis)

30 winded + gust

[vivid hull]

Never considered that was a viable thing

[modern wren]

250k dps with shitass rolls so its solid

Mainly cuz i cant depend on allies for 30 winded

[knotty latch]

please can assassin get 1 tapped if their body is inside the sword hitbox at all

it would be a great nerf to flying classes in tcc as they are practically invulnerable

and it also prevents acrobats from just standing still and bombing the rest of their team with shockwaves

@worn kraken

[compact summit]

Whyd you ping a mod about ability changes xd

[worn kraken]

he was annoyed because i was playing acro earlier xD

[compact summit]

Lol

[worn kraken]

im above the tcc guy soo

[vivid hull]

My hmelee shade build unironically surviving tcc sword sweep attack head-on after having only taken damage buffs the entire raid:

[worn kraken]

assassin silly like that

etw nirv can tank sword sweep too

[vivid hull]

Clones dr is busted, and all of my ehp being in def and raw hp (-73 agi) helps lol

[patent sage]

dissolution + clones make etw nirv about as tanky as the standard trance build

[spare oyster]

you need to consider that the disso dr only has a .5s timeframe and 1s if you wanna waste an aspect slot for it

[royal nimbus]

And clones last for 6 hits with big cd

From my etw nirvana and lament/warp lightbender experiences i can confirm, lightbender is tankier

[frail quiver]

or just run alkali and get 6s of uptime per vanish

[spare oyster]

the reduced dr in question

[frail quiver]

arguably way more useful to have than the 1s youd get otherwise

[vivid hull]

Animosity, a fabled dagger whit good melee damage boosts and high base damage, has the Insoluable MID built-in. If you use it, you don't even need to waste your necklace slot on that. Instead, I like to use Miniature Defibrillator there for higher main atk dmg % and to help combat the negative walkspeed modifier that many hmelee pieces give. The negative lifesteal is low enough that it's a fair tradeoff.
🙂

[frail quiver]

the argument was for nirvana

[royal nimbus]

the best change for shade that doesnt require reworking abilities would be just replacing spots of "harvester" with "more marks", like if you care for harvester the sp cost doesnt change but in 99% of other cases it frees up sp

such a useless ability

[slow trail]

yea im sure just adding more damage will make it better

[royal nimbus]

"We cant forget to make one of the most useless abilities in the game on parry level cost 2 sp and be required to progress the path"

https://tenor.com/view/blackbeard-blackbeard-writing-taking-notes-writing-gif-17583038544116987898

Like bruh, on kill removes use from bosses and marks remove use from small mobs

[vivid jungle]

It can reworked to be more useful though

[royal nimbus]

It cant

It needs to be mana printer on backstab which is a different issue on its own due to nirvanas existence

It needs to become a completly different ability
or if cts are lazy just switch it position to be optional

Black hole and death magnet are their own peak design examples but at least you are not forced to take them 😔

Genuinely the best options for harvester fix is:
-move it one slot to the right
-replace with cheaper multihit/dash

[spare oyster]

@slow trail i may be asking for too much but is it possible for satsujin to only proc while in vanish?

[slow trail]

could do

[spare oyster]

thanks 🙏

[slow trail]

no promises

[compact skiff]

🙏

[patent sage]

... do we really need shade buffs?

[sullen creek]

Permission number #4 **.sm utility disable ** is preventing this action.

[patent sage]

what the fuck is this bot

[languid jacinth]

it could use some qol stuff like knives not disappearing when swapping weapon and less reliance on aspects, but i definitely dont think it needs to be stronger than it is rn lol. the satsujin only proccing in vanish would also just be a qol thing

[patent sage]

was going to say 800k sustained dps is uh a lot...

glue synergy makes it possible to reach that dps on all the raids but notg

[languid jacinth]

glue 😮‍💨

[royal nimbus]

https://tenor.com/view/glue-meme-discord-food-glue-on-food-gif-22371166

I witnessed this number only on hyperglass nirvana in tcc to be still outdamaged by fallen

In other raids theres no competition 😔 the best you can do are short bursts of like 300k dmg
Not even gonna mentiong notg being unplayable due to a bug

[patent sage]

notg is funny but nah other raids is fine

tcc if you keep knives into boss it's easy to outdamage fallen

even though obv shade loses in rooms

[spare oyster]

the 40 block fallen aoe in wing room in question

[royal nimbus]

but jokes aside, shade is solid now and only needs small polishing

like not dmg related at all (unless make him less reliant on aspects)

[patent sage]

it's just gonna suffer in rooms for the same reason it's good -> needs to build up, can't buff it in rooms without taking away identity

[royal nimbus]

*lets dont forget about the unbackstabable mobs bug *

they are gonna faster call it a feature than acknowledge it

[slow trail]

yea i agree w this

honestly if anything i want to transfer some aspect power to the atree and then make whatever was transferred like a bit worse

[spare oyster]

erm…
by a bit worse you mean the aspects or…

[slow trail]

no like knock 20% of the power off whatever is transferred

which is. a pretty insignificant amount

mind u i kinda want to do a small nerf to blood pact too

[spare oyster]

erm… shade nerf
i can’t accept this

[royal nimbus]

Hell nah we got shade nerf before gta6

[slow trail]

boo womp

it might happen after gta6 ngl a 2% shade nerf is not something i particularly care about

[spare oyster]

i’m gonna get outdamaged by shamans now

[slow trail]

man

i think there’s kinda no point in doing nerfs or buffs or whatever until the assassin atree is finalized for a while anyways

[spare oyster]

i was thinking completely shift extra marks from the aspect to the tree but move how frequently it’s applied onto the aspect

[royal nimbus]

Lets make setup worse which in current version is the part handicapping shade the most 😔

Spin cant apply 2 marks without t3 incoming

[slow trail]

lol

why would we ever make shade setup worse,,,

[spare oyster]

shade fableds should not be heavy on damage, i’d rather it be qol than it giving pure damage

[royal nimbus]

Completely goated idea for shade optional node cant deny 100% frfr ™️ :
Get 1 knive per 1 mark but they do less dmg instead

[spare oyster]

that is terrible

[royal nimbus]

[spare oyster]

let’s revert back to old knives genius

[royal nimbus]

Didnt found the sarcasm 😔

Made it more obvious

[spare oyster]

i still believe shade aspects should shift from pure dps increase to qol

for fableds

[languid jacinth]

really depends on the archetype tbh cuz these aspects are definitely not built equally lol

[frail quiver]

remove marks aspect replace with shadow travel buff and then increase better marked buff by like 1-2%

[spare oyster]

because rn shade aspects barely have any room to even use any other aspect

[royal nimbus]

Shadow travel buff

[languid jacinth]

some builds are almost entirely fine with 0 aspects whereas others cannot function without them

[royal nimbus]

Velocity affects your next backstab dng

300 speed weathered one shots tna

[slow trail]

i meant specifically w shade but yeah they absolutely aren’t equal lol

[frail quiver]

better marks is at like the very end of the tree so it shouldnt matter and locks off mark power from trickshade

[spare oyster]

that is just worse damage

[slow trail]

any velocity shit is so cooked

[languid jacinth]

oh gotcha

[frail quiver]

i mean you can shift the numbers till they make sense dawg

[slow trail]

i doubt there’ll ever be a velocity damage based ability just because it’s SO abusable

[royal nimbus]

Sadly they decided to unfuck shade with aspects instead of direct tree changes and now theres the issue 😔

[frail quiver]

ig 5% more dmg per mark gets you 30% more dmg with 6 marks cap

[spare oyster]

make it a flying kick major id

[languid jacinth]

yeah every class has some way of moving at light speed lol

[slow trail]

swinging with your main attack uses flying kick real

[spare oyster]

erm…where’s the velocity

[slow trail]

that and velocity abuse as in cheating can just one shot anything unless some cap is added which. it totally would be

idk maybe there’s a spot where it works,,

[languid jacinth]

dancing blade rework 🤯

[royal nimbus]

Unpopular opinion but can the early shade melee thingies matter outside of being only a archetype point shit like shaman/archer have goated options and assasin has 50 poison

[spare oyster]

have you not seen it give 1 attack range

[royal nimbus]

[spare oyster]

@slow trail what are your thoughts on giving atree the marks from aspect and giving it the marks appliance cooldown reduction

it doesn’t harm dps at all, but it will slow down the setup, but not that much
i’m still keen on the fableds leaning more on the qol side and shade tree having the damage

[slow trail]

oh there’s more than dancing blade in the works…

[slow trail]

i genuinely wouldn’t mind that

[royal nimbus]

https://tenor.com/view/the-voices-voices-in-my-head-voices-cat-gif-23453583

[slow trail]

i do think slower setup is gonna be more annoying for people rather than worse damages

so perhaps not that

[languid jacinth]

:DD

[royal nimbus]

Finally a good take

[languid jacinth]

hearing acro changes makes me very happy

[royal nimbus]

Make all assissin fableds increase backstab angle 🔥

With all t3s you get 360

[spare oyster]

you only ever need to max out knives once (this might definitely be the case if the aspect for it is dura) and applying 9 marks would take like 4s if you spin and smoke

[slow trail]

ngl punscake’s fake atree thing has saved my ass from doing like hours of work

[royal nimbus]

Knives duration aspect is something i can get behind

[slow trail]

knives duration would be sooo nice

[royal nimbus]

Aspect making clones take 3 > 4 > 5 hits instead of 2

[spare oyster]

i still don’t see the problem then
i can see the synergy between knife dura aspect and marks appliance aspect
let’s say knife is like 60s dura, you max out marks in like 5s or so, you have 55s to spare while constantly refreshing smoke on bosses

i do not see the issue for marks aspect being an appliance based stat

and think of the other playstyles that do not use fatal spin for appliance, inferno and animosity hmelee can’t spam spin attack that much without nuking their mana

and the players that are just getting into the build are stuck with no extra marks from the aspect, is that fair?

[slow trail]

this is my concern with it

knives duration is fine though idm that since it doesn’t take longer to set them up they just last longer

[royal nimbus]

Knives finally surviving watched without needing to be at like 90% timer 🙏

Or killing some random my spawning greater one

[spare oyster]

it may be annoying, yes, but it’s something that isn’t required for max dps potential, rather than it being something the player can grind for for improved qol

that’s how i envision most of the aspects, they fix places that the class lack in qol

[slow trail]

yea i mean i see the argument

[royal nimbus]

Lets take qol away so you need to grind for it back

I would rather have spin apply 2 marks than have 1 less mark

[slow trail]

the agi thread is scaring me

[spare oyster]

idt there isn’t another approach for the marks aspect other than just outright boosting the damage better marked gives, but that’s still marked in different wording

[slow trail]

i think same yeah

[spare oyster]

what if fatal spin reversed the double spin effect but made marks apply twice as fast and have similar, if not, more damage

[royal nimbus]

Overall less dmg > making it abyssmal unfun to play

The only way the qol fableds could work, is not replacing existing stuff but adding more

More knightcloak:
Tree has more knives by deafult
Aspect changes into knives duration which didnt exist before

[spare oyster]

there’s like no other approach related to marks other than 2 things mentioned here before

[royal nimbus]

Marks boost allies dmg instead

[frail quiver]

well, theres the approach of doubling marks, lowering mark app cooldown even more and halving their dmg

[royal nimbus]

0.25% per mark t1

[frail quiver]

thatll indirectly nerf the aspect assuming it stays at 3 marks

also has the benefit of being able to max out marks on one enemy

[spare oyster]

all of that just sounds like you made a major id

[frail quiver]

well its the opposite of what they did to nck

and then a node that speeds up smoke bomb ticks, maybe with black hole

or even just having that be a legendary aspect

[spare oyster]

that’s what i said before but linny is being mysterious about it…

[royal nimbus]

"consuming marks has a 10%/25%/40% chance to gain one additional knive per mark consumed"

[frail quiver]

ew no, do not add chance

[royal nimbus]

https://tenor.com/view/blackbeard-blackbeard-writing-taking-notes-writing-gif-17583038544116987898

[spare oyster]

back to giving aspects a totally different function

from the ability itself

[slow trail]

idk i don’t wanna leak upcoming changes or anything lmao

[frail quiver]

i do remember someone saying black hole should speed up smoke ticks

[royal nimbus]

Theres so much you can do with a resource without increasing its ammount or effectivness

[spare oyster]

that was me

[slow trail]

this was pretty based

[frail quiver]

real, sounds like a good suggestion

[slow trail]

imo luka is right abt this tho

[royal nimbus]

If only it doesnt kill normal smoke bomb mark applicatoon

[spare oyster]

what if knife aspect removed knives but added knife damage to compensate, same with marks

3m dps update

@ linny sign me up for at

[frail quiver]

id also like to see black hole just work more over time, rn it either pulls nothing or too hard and overshoots, Id like to it have more of an impact over the smoke duration

make it the shaman major frfr

[spare oyster]

honestly just move marks into the tree and make a vortex range aspect

i want more vortex action

i’m surprised it doesn’t have an aspect yet when it’s one of the good abilities for shade

[royal nimbus]

There was a game with status archetypes and one of them was charge and suffered the same issue. The most bland one. Gain charge (count), spend charge to do stuff. Now they added charge potency which you gain for spending 10 count and it unlocks so much stuff to make.
To wynncraft terms:
Inflict a special type of a mark for every x marks absorbed.
What its gonna do? Fuck me if i know

[spare oyster]

or maybe reduce the hp threshold of vortex, either works

i wouldn’t say damage, i’m either ok with range or the hp threshold

i need linny for some input…

[royal nimbus]

You just spoilered the next update and dont know what to say

[spare oyster]

i’m in dire need for 4 aspects, if not 5, to not be required for shade

[royal nimbus]

Shade has required aspects and other aspects just suck ass

What else are you gonna pick if the current fableds got removed and raw implemented into the tree

[spare oyster]

disso is a good aspect

[royal nimbus]

I never felt like "damn i wish i had more slots"

[spare oyster]

there are quite literally no other aspects for shade

[frail quiver]

backstab range and angle are good

theres also just not an aspect for each shade ability so you dont have options

[spare oyster]

backstab range is like the default 5th aspect, disso being another option

[frail quiver]

i personally take smoke bomb radius tho

[spare oyster]

i wouldn’t consider that as a shade aspect imo

[frail quiver]

suppose not, but also not like every class has a full set of aspects

[spare oyster]

i think trickster has the least amount of aspects

[compact skiff]

doesnt it only have sandbagging and the mythic lol

[spare oyster]

part of the reason i believe trickster on its own is underpowered is because it only has 2 aspects

and the other part is it having useless abilities lololol

[compact skiff]

it has numerous tricks !!!

[spare oyster]

but the aspects can come after abilities

when will choke bomb start to actually choke mobs

[frail quiver]

there is the boozle aspect

[spare oyster]

boozle so irrelevant i forgot about that one

[frail quiver]

least aspects is fallen, bb and mythic

[royal nimbus]

Imo overall i feel like the entire idea of current version clones on trickster is a wasted opportunity.
As the name suggests, trickster should trick enemies
Upon entering vanish summon a decoy clone which explodes after taking x dmg ass
1:1 tf2 dead ringer leaving clone instead of a corpse
Etc

[frail quiver]

ah wait nvm fallen got bloodlust range too, nvm

[royal nimbus]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/869817037843738654/1324704063316819998/image.png?ex=677d12cc&is=677bc14c&hm=fbc7e71954acf96882b358d74351131b57686061d517552b1217e2cc65b1fc60& ignore that it was intended to be shades black hole different ehp node

[spare oyster]

amazing agility non-synergy

[slow trail]

do u have like

a whole atree of this stashed somewhere

i kinda wanna take a peek

[royal nimbus]

I only reworked shade tree which was also replacement of death magnet with better backstab, yeeting harvester out of main path and thats all

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/869817037843738654/1324707674922680403/image.png?ex=677d1629&is=677bc4a9&hm=2b18a8ea45a7a682e9a335cceb46b74913628b68ef7a14ef37f9fdbdd8b775c2&

Started reworking trickster to have the exploding decoys but got bored

i stopped here

0 ideas what to do with acrobat but i have so goated idea how to implement witcher as a class 😔

[spare oyster]

this was basically my diversion rework suggestion more than a year ago

[vivid jungle]

Late, but what would the nerf look like?

[slow trail]

numbers change

or % of damage boost for how much of the spellcost was done using blood

[vivid jungle]

Oh

[slow trail]

but that secon doption is. a bit bigger of a deal. i havent thought about it At All

[vivid jungle]

Well this kind of ruins sustain hero and makes thrunda upperscream reign supreme though.

Actually

[slow trail]

yea i mean its like

• should sustain fallen be nerfed both in general and vs burst fallen
• should blood pact in general be nerfed

i dunno ! i cba thinking about it rn

im like up to my neck in assassin atree

[vivid jungle]

For your first point, I think both can see some use cases

Like if say Groot decides to constantly burrow in and doesn't allow you constantly uptime him perhaps bursty Fallen is better.

Orphion's health is plastic and gets bursted down very easily.

[slow trail]

well orphion is getting burst down nomatter what LOl

i think burst is just naturally good in tna too cause of phases that let u recover

[vivid jungle]

Yeah, but bursty Fallen sees more use cases due to how fast you get to his invincibility phase.

[slow trail]

yah

[vivid jungle]

Well Greg is fast

You can surge with alka and bbath and it is barely enough, but generally higher walk speed allows you to more comfortably evade his attacks such as the swipe. (When he turns a full 180 and kills you instantly)

[slow trail]

another delirium w

yeah idk

[vivid jungle]

I mean it's nice that there are different ways one can enjoy corrupted.

Bursty and sustain

As for the second point, maybe not? I only know very few playstyles that use blood pact: Burst Fallen, Sustain Fallen, Generalist.

It contributes to most of its damage, especially as the aspect makes it do a whopping 30% more.

Is corrupted risky enough to be deserving its damage is the better question.

[slow trail]

we could make it give you blindness and nausea and peopel would still get good enough at playing it against bosses to not die

imo the amount of damage it gives you is just a little overtuned

[spare oyster]

bring back bugged bpact

[slow trail]

nothing is stopping u from still playing 5hp

[spare oyster]

5hp is unironically still possible

just can’t use corrupt, but that’s fine

[slow trail]

yea

i mean you can cast Four Spells i guess

[worn kraken]

A healer

Or sslow lifesteal or smth

[spare oyster]

hpr recovers to full hp + spells don’t really cost 1 hp per cast

it says -1 but you can cast way more than 4

[vivid jungle]

Linny don't buff acrobat!

[spare oyster]

linny gonna scrap all the assassin changes now

[slow trail]

buff interms of how fun it is to play/.....

surely . i would be a little sad if people hated it

[vivid jungle]

417K Nirvana DPS truly

[slow trail]

tbh the acro changes mostly are not my ideas. i only contributed like. probably a third of it

ok i shoudl stop talking before i leak shit

[vivid jungle]

You should tell them to resign all changes for the screenshot above is irrefutable proof that acrobat is busted.

[worn kraken]

whys there a pan shaped object in the 4th slot 🤨

[vivid jungle]

To whack the parasite when it is down

[slow trail]

pan

[spare oyster]

GROUNDED ACROBAT IS CONFIRMED

[slow trail]

hell nah 😭

idk wtf grounded acrobat would do better than trickster

i think i cooked though

[spare oyster]

it dashes and weaves around mobs obviously 🙄

[slow trail]

my bad

[spare oyster]

acro gets 3s of flight then big comical scissors comes down and snip your wings

[frail quiver]

flew too close to the sun (died to orphion)

(or annie take ur pick)

[slow trail]

Icarus (Blue Node, Acrobat)

After staying 10+ blocks above the ground
for x seconds without connecting a Multihit,
gain the Grounded status effect for 3s.

Total Damage: +110%
  Sun Damage: +100%
  Fire Damage: +50%

Acrobat Archetype```

im leaking

[spare oyster]

😱

i wish there was a minecraft effect that was the reverse of levitation

made you fall 10x faster

[slow trail]

kid named Pirouette

actually no i didnt read what you typed lmfao . true

[spare oyster]

wait

give it the archer escape shift speed to force grounded

[slow trail]

skull

[frail quiver]

wronging reflex ong

[slow trail]

LOL

i wish icould just like send my atree shit here ng l

[frail quiver]

you can once it comes out 👍

[spare oyster]

when’s the preview

oh we still got a week

[frail quiver]

tbh i dont think we'll get anything till like the 20th

[compact summit]

Am I tripping or is that a "remove skill ceiling" statement

[frail quiver]

idr who it was but either term or zeer said they only just off of their break so dont expect the schedule to be right on cue

[slow trail]

gonna be a good bit longer

[spare oyster]

damn

[slow trail]

i mean i guess so but its a goofy way to do it. tbh it would raise the floor more

[spare oyster]

this patch genuinely might come out on the day when my next semester starts man

[slow trail]

mine already starte d

first class is wednesday

[spare oyster]

i hate college

[compact summit]

That's just not possible to do without messing up smth else about fallen which I'd be veeeeery careful with if I were you cause fallen is the healthiest meta in wynn history I wouldn't wanna fuck it up

[frail quiver]

fallen meta is just rage gma with atree support

[spare oyster]

what if you gave fallen the bloodholic debuff after they cast 5 blood pact spells

[frail quiver]

tbh a blood pact aspect nerf is probably fine

[spare oyster]

they can’t use bpact for the next 5s

[compact summit]

Something will always kill bosses in 2s period
No atree change or item nerf will save you from players figuring out how to do that so while the players have found smtth like that and it's actually intended I would be extremely cautious when touching that

[slow trail]

all i wanna do is sligtly nerf bpact lmfao

i wasnt being seriouys silly

[compact summit]

Won't rly raise the ceiling or anything

[slow trail]

i . know

[spare oyster]

bpacts damage bonus should either stay on the node itself or the aspect

i’d rather remove it from the node

[frail quiver]

i mean you could just lower both node and aspect

[compact summit]

That's just dumb cuz aspects are supposed to upgrade nodes not add new stuff
Bpact has no perks aside from hp casting, suddenly the aspect adds one. What.

[frail quiver]

no perks....

as if using your health as mana isnt a perk

oh you did say aside mb

[spare oyster]

remove the damage bonus from the aspect then

[compact summit]

Do you actually not get what I meant or do you just wanna be an asshole

[spare oyster]

give it another fallen ability in it

[frail quiver]

nah i just misread

[compact summit]

Ok it's the former, good

[frail quiver]

fallen is my favourite assassin archetype, speaking of assassins, itd be cool to see if acrobat's dmg cap thingy that people were talking about could be addressed

like i dont play the archetype but i can see what they mean, multihit and smoke being the main dmg alongside bloom all being pretty passive does limit the dmg

[spare oyster]

what if instead of fallen aspect having a pure bpact dmg boost, it did something with bloodlust instead

all this time i thought base bpact gave 10% dmg but it was 15
great

[frail quiver]

though why dont ppl try and weave more lacerates in

[vivid jungle]

We already do

[woeful river]

I dunno why piro not working no greg , skill issue or ping issue ?

[royal nimbus]

"healthiest meta" my ass

"oh its a burst and you are one tap" like something will hit you when you have 40 block aoe 1m dps and all bosses die or have forced downtime allowing you to reset

[compact summit]

yeah well people will always whine about meta

if you hate fallen that much, sure, let ct nerf it and we'll find something even more broken that is bug abuse, is that any better?

its a fully intended playstyle on an archetype fully intended to do damage which, by wynn standards, is already crazy rare to be meta

[royal nimbus]

yes

[compact summit]

and you just invalidated your opinion
good job, I guess? chances are it was bait to begin with

[royal nimbus]

this is like top2 forst meta only outclassed by 4 tricksters melting tna in 5 frames

[dim idol]

Fallen is in a good spot where burst dps is viable

Tho uh aspect might be too good

[compact summit]

i wonder how trapstack which does the entire fallen burst in a single hit and doesn't need downtime didn't end up there 🗿

[royal nimbus]

that was actually goated

[dim idol]

I miss trapstack my fast panic zealot farming is cooked

[royal nimbus]

It would be fun to somehow make the setupping for one heavy backstab at least in some way viable without overbuffing hmelle (it already does it better)

Lets start by making wind prison usable in raids

[royal nimbus]

Theres the agi drama thread, lemme make one for wind prison as well maybe

[west ivy]

Ofc, shade is underpowered

[languid jacinth]

???

[patent sage]

mfw it only get outdamaged in rooms, period

[royal nimbus]

Its foxo dont mind him

[languid jacinth]

yeah... just... man.

idk how you can be so wrong so frequently

[patent sage]

if we only show boss damage, shade easily wins every other archetype

[royal nimbus]

Shade is clunky as shit ≠ underpowered

[vivid jungle]

Oh no! It's almost like that's the entire point!

If you aren't paying attention then yeah something is going to snipe you

Which is why you use your low health it destroy it as fast as you can

[royal nimbus]

So entire point of fallen is intetion to be unbalanced broken on purpose so people dont go find new bugs like trapstacking 😔

[frail quiver]

no its meant to be high dmg high risk

[royal nimbus]

Theres literally no risk if everything dies in 2 frames 😔

[patent sage]

i mean the simple solution is to block healing for x seconds after exiting corrupted too but the backlash would explode

[compact summit]

looking at you you've never been to a mmorpg before so let me tell you the tragic truth
things will always die in 2 frames so long as they don't have hard forced downtime (e.g. greg watched), the community will always find ways to pull it off so it's only down to how much risk you take and fallen is waaaaaay riskier than any meta in wynn history
besides, saying fallen is "literally no risk" is ignorant and outright wrong but atp it's obvious to everyone you've never played fallen and have 0 idea what you're whining about

[vivid jungle]

If you're not paying attention OR if a slightly more tankier boss yeets an attack at you.

[vivid jungle]

So... remove intoxicating blood and exhilirate?

[compact summit]

So... make bloodbath impossible to use?

[vivid jungle]

I mean anemic exists

More often than not just drags shit out rather than posing a challenge to overcome.

[frail quiver]

removing those two does force you to build more sustain ig but its not really a solution

[vivid jungle]

Well yeah let's remove one of bloodbath's utility.

And make it even more niche!

[frail quiver]

id argue not having intoxicating and exhil makes bloodbath better what

its got a good amount of lifesteal

[vivid jungle]

Read that wrong, but removing those would actually make Bloodbath better.

Since you don't need as much time to rally

Well... if you have enough health to rally after bursting anyway.

[compact summit]

yea right its almost like you're gonna walk up to an enemy and melee it like 10 times all while being within 1 tap range

[frail quiver]

the chain lightning in question

[vivid jungle]

?

[frail quiver]

the melee range in question

[compact summit]

having chain kills your dps cause you want more rage

[vivid jungle]

Do you play Fallen

[compact summit]

lemme guess you've never tried doing this yourself lmao

[frail quiver]

literally how im building it now

[compact summit]

"building" come back when you play it

[frail quiver]

okay if youre just gonna be dismissive like that theres no point discussing this

[compact summit]

ls is just a massive cope in the current state on wynn especially on warrior, especially on fallen
its one of if not the worst archetypes to use it on

[vivid jungle]

Also sometimes it's just not reliable because not enough minions in the boss room.

[compact summit]

yea no point discussing smth with a person who has no idea what they're talking about, sorry

[frail quiver]

see thats fair, but also bloodbath lowers your max hp so lifesteal is more effective

[worn kraken]

warrior class feedback thread?! 🤯

[frail quiver]

you can also tierdrop bbath anyway to get more effective steals, youve got 5 seconds anyway

[frail quiver]

real discussing warriorstepper

[vivid jungle]

It makes charging out of danger a bit unfeasible.

[vivid jungle]

And kill your damage in the process sure.

I don't think Tenuto is worth taking over the crafted necklace

[frail quiver]

i was gonna say agave

[vivid jungle]

Crafted rings

[frail quiver]

okay if crafted are on the table then sure

[worn kraken]

wats even goin on here

[vivid jungle]

Uhh

lukatin was talking about shadestepper risks and says Fallen is too overpowered and doesn't take risk.

Me and Void have a rebuttal

[compact skiff]

lukatin u dont even have a warrior

[worn kraken]

Oh that guys like trolling 87% of the time

[vivid jungle]

Transitions to a way to make Fallen more riskier.

[royal nimbus]

had*

it got me banned few years ago cuz i used tna glitch to level him up

[vivid jungle]

I don't want this thread to get locked again

Previous one got locked but for different reasons

[royal nimbus]

indeed, i clicked lock button as op

time to build warrior and fallen will be nerfed next week like when i got trapstack build 😔

ill save the wynncraft

[vivid hull]

What do we think would fix assassin?

[royal nimbus]

1. fix backstab not working for years
2. completly rework trickster and acro from scratch
   profit

[vivid hull]

Shade can be awkward to get everything to line up still; marks need to be applied (gl without sticky bomb), nightcloak knives need to be applied and preferably maxed, Satsujin needs to be off cooldown for that specific enemy. Mostly good, just... convoluted.
Also yeah fix backstab PLEASE

[vivid jungle]

acrobat doesn't need a rework

[royal nimbus]

they literally said that he aint getting more damage cuz he can fly

[vivid jungle]

I've seen many different opinions

[vivid hull]

Not a complete rework, no. But I wouldn't be opposed to a partial rework like what Aco got recently.

[royal nimbus]

that aco change forced my ass from shaman to assasin 🔥

[vivid hull]

Trickster is in much more desperate need of any kind of overhaul though

Being a pseudo tank doesn't feel very trickster-y. Like Mirror Image fits and so does the general clone theme, but does EVERYTHING have to be built around Mirror Image?

[compact summit]

"everything" trickster doesnt even have anything except mirror image and echo

deli gas is a generic sidekick dps buff and distraction is not rly relevant

[vivid hull]

Distraction does jack lol
Delirious gas is like a surprise perk that is actually neat to have as an optional thing

[compact summit]

gameplay-wise u just have clones and have them cast spells

both distraction and deli are cool side stat buffs but they dont rly do much to trickster's identity and gameplay

[spare oyster]

distraction is good, it’s just bad when there’s a lightbender debuffing

[knotty latch]

what happens if lb?

[spare oyster]

their damage reduction debuff overrides distraction

[vivid hull]

Distraction only applies to the trickster that applied it anyways

[spare oyster]

as it should, it’s a personalized ability

[vivid hull]

Trick is more of a team assist archetype though no...?

[vivid jungle]

Tries to*

[spare oyster]

why should other players, who do not have distraction in their tree, help apply distraction?

trickster already almost maxes out distraction instantly because of the amount of hits it does

[vivid hull]

I don't mean other classes applying it, I mean the increased damage enemies take currently only applies to the trick that applied it.

I just wanna have clones that aren't glue to my side, be able to send them out as agro dummies

[spare oyster]

is it not a global effect? it’s marked as a debuff and shows it as one above enemies

[vivid hull]

I'm like 90% sure it only increases the damage an enemy takes by the trickster that applied it

[spare oyster]

why are you saying increases damage
it decreases damage mobs do when affected by distraction, and it is a debuff that is almost definitely global

[vivid hull]

I was mistaken in my wording. I meant that it decreases the damage they deal, but only to the applying trickster.

[vivid jungle]

It's global because it shows the heart break effect

[spare oyster]

if distraction only affected the person that applied it, it would specify

[woeful river]

Don't rework trickster just rework greg hitbox i need kill greg with my cataclysm

Trickster is fun but i hate blindness spin is so annoying

[vivid hull]

I've always considered Blazing Powder a saving grace lol

A little bit redundant if you also have Delirious Gas/Hoodwink combo though

[compact summit]

idt anyone would be able to tell u ngl i doubt anyone on the server actually knows for sure what the fuck it was meant to be

[vivid hull]

I'd assumed like an agro management thing, like some kind of wierd quasi-tank

[vivid jungle]

Hey, here’s Mirror Image… this will tend towards tanking.

Hey, here’s Echo! It’ll duplicate your damage so you need to build some sustain to upkeep it.

Hey, here’s Diversion… it grants overhealth to your teammates whenever you hit a lured enemy, you’ll be great support with this.

Oh uh make sure to kill a clone with Bamboozle to get huge burst damage, but also keep your clones for maximum sustained damage.

And wait errr about 20 seconds (with the aspect) for that clone to come back.

I’m sure players can create an identity for trickster by just incorporating nodes of the other archetypes in!

[vivid hull]

I think that Trick being built around Mirror Image and Echo alone is a detriment to it. Luring is mostly alright though.

[vivid jungle]

• Trickster summons player entities (clones).
• Clones have the ability to draw aggro instead of being merely a visual. Mobs will now attempt to target clones instead.
• Maximum of 4 clones (5 clones with the aspect) that take 2 hits.
• Various debuffs could be attached to these clones.

[compact summit]

True it kinda never made sense to me that trickster doesn't actually trick anyone despite having clones as tools to do so

[spare oyster]

what if trickster became a catfish

[compact summit]

Because all you have in life is assassin and you want a girlfriend.. right

[spare oyster]

yeah

i got the unholy rizz

[vivid jungle]

Stronger Attacks = Stronger Debuffs

[compact summit]

Delirizzus gas

[vivid hull]

Just give trickster a bunch of clone summoning abilities, then make mirror image just call all nearby clones (up to 3) to your aid, causing them to take 20% of your damage each until death from said damage. Although this would mean we have to give clones their own hp values, and make trickster another summoner archetype like, well, summoner. And also trapper to an extent.

Bamboozle now tps you to the clone looked at, slaying it and creating a brutal fiery slash on impact?

We bake the agro management into trickster instead of making it this side perk that awkwardly is required later down the line

[modern wren]

i missed so much

what is happening

[modern wren]

trick buffs ideas?

[slow trail]

simply make echo not recast spells and clones not tank damage

then redo the entire archetype. easy!

[modern wren]

i think trick could be fun if it was based more around last laugh type stuff. like whenever a clone dies, all other clones cast a random spell, and based on the spell a clone casts, they apply debuffs

etc, so it can be more... trickstery. keeps debuff spam, keeps clones, keeps last laugh, just ties it together

[vivid jungle]

I have an idea for sandbagging

[modern wren]

make it nerf the enemy damage like devitalize, not just decrease its damage to you. like it does less damage to everyone thats my idea

[vivid jungle]

One clone is selected as the tanky one, and hypothetically, gets hit with a bunch of debuffs

[modern wren]

how do you select clones?

just random?

[vivid jungle]

When the clone dies, the debuffs are transferred and multiplied onto all enemies based on how many spells are copied.

[vivid jungle]

Shift dash

[slow trail]

you’d need to lock them in place to not rotate

it’s also like four buttons mid combat to select a clone

i was thinking about it earlier and selecting clones seems undoable

[modern wren]

yeah :/ sadly. is it possible for you to make something where you can "attach" a clone to an ally somehow?

[languid jacinth]

i read buttons as burritos like twice over and was so confused

[spare oyster]

@slow trail what if marks aspect instead increased marked duration while nerfing base duration?

[slow trail]

possible? yes theoretically

[modern wren]

so the clone can tank the next hit or two for your ally, and then it last laughs and dumps debuffs on enemies

[slow trail]

possible idk

[modern wren]

or your clones get to dump debuffs. so like it can actually tank, support, and be an annoying piece of crap and debuff enemies to hell and back. and does decent damage

[slow trail]

would be cool if trickster was like hard support but idk other than that

[vivid jungle]

What if hoodwink transferred ally negative status effects as well.

[slow trail]

ally.,,, isn’t that just what hoodwink is for? theoretically?

[modern wren]

yeah fair... but i feel like trickster should have more last laugh stuff because that fits so well with it

[slow trail]

idk how you’d make it transfer ally negative effects i mean ig u could give it a big radius

[vivid jungle]

How would clones behave

If you guys had any ideas

[modern wren]

i mean you could make the trickster a tank/support maybe? like attach clones, and when the clone dies it last laughs and transfers debuffs from allies? but thats a bit far and i also dont like trickster being a support

[slow trail]

yeah but do you wanna make trickster a tank support

[modern wren]

my only idea for clones is more last laugh bs lol

[vivid jungle]

An assassin archetype

Tank

Pick one

[modern wren]

i really dont want to either. trickster should be... trickster

[slow trail]

also are ally debuffs really relevant enough to spend like 4ap on

[languid jacinth]

i pick arcanist

[slow trail]

i feel like it’s just getting skipped

[modern wren]

trickster is supposed to be the "tanky" assassin but ehhhhh?

[modern wren]

lb can do it better

[vivid jungle]

Tbh I want to like arcanist but chaos explosion isn’t very captivating to me.

[languid jacinth]

YOURE WRONG! QUIT WYNN FOREVER 🤬

[vivid jungle]

I just use arcanist for lootruns and that’s it.

[modern wren]

arcanist is weird. why i just use riftcanist

[vivid jungle]

Riftcanist raid

Arcanist for lootruns

[slow trail]

doesn’t ‘default’ arcanist still use 10 winded

[vivid jungle]

Unsure, but I just used Melon’s warp lr build

[modern wren]

i think default mage period has at least 10 winded

[vivid jungle]

Also gl testing trickster dps on the dummy

Wait it has a hit box

[languid jacinth]

most builds do yeah

ik theres a weird 20 winded arcanist build that does more damage but it’s not heavy spell and i think that’s VERY CRINGE!

[vivid jungle]

Waiting for chaos explosion spell combinations

[languid jacinth]

nope only meteor

[vivid jungle]

Imagine it’s a dps loss because you can’t spam meteor LOL

[languid jacinth]

(pls dont change my heavy spell build will die!! )

[languid jacinth]

it most likely will be yeah ;((if arcanist has to build any sustain period it’s genuinely so over for the class

[modern wren]

ok while we are talking about mage, i think riftwalker should be in the middle and not lb. like why is lb in the middle???

[slow trail]

yeah you’d need like at least a little cost mitigation for that surely

[slow trail]

true tbh

[vivid hull]

Oh goodness I say my crackpot idea and now there's a bunch to read lol

[modern wren]

say it

i have just as crackpot ideas i need to hear this one lol

[vivid hull]

But like the idea was to remove the need to have a bunch of overhealth/extra damage reduction tools except for mirror image (I don't want to smash hmelee shades or trickos even more), and let clone agro management be the ultimate survival tool.

And yeah I like what others said about more on-death clone effects like last laugh

[modern wren]

yesssss

like the whole thing is take damage/tank so clones die -> spellspam by clones -> debuffs, then you can add mana sustain based on debuffs or scaling damage or something

and debuffs help you tank more too and have better control

[vivid hull]

Like a final sendoff once a clone runs out of hp to tank with, makes things like blazing powder even more useful as it ensures the enemies stay out of the picture for a bit after the clone's death

And sandbagging just triggers on clone death instead of damage taken ig

[modern wren]

sandbagging i thought was hits done*

thats distraction

[vivid hull]

99% sure sandbagging in its current state reduces ability cooldowns by 3s when taking less than 5% hax hp in dmg on a hit, witha 1s cooldown

[modern wren]

sandbagging is cool but on clone death could work. distraction is currently awesome. also i mixed the two up lol that was whtat i was saying

[vivid hull]

Make hitting clones count as hits for enemies, they get weaker as they attack the agro dummy

[modern wren]

wdym?

[vivid hull]

Enemy hits clone -> counts as the enemy getting hit -> distraction damage nerf buildup

[modern wren]

ohhh. i mean if you have the weird last laugh thing it would be enemy hits clone/you -> clone dies -> all other clones cast spells and debuff vomit + distraction kicks in

[vivid hull]

I feel like Echo would have to be moved farther down the tree though

The AOE reach is increased even more than the current Echo system allows

[modern wren]

i would replace echo with the "on clone death, all other clones cast random spells"

[vivid hull]

Besides shades and acros hybridizing would prob get more use out of having distraction dummies. Imagine leaving a dummy in your wake when you leave vanish, making sure that any surviving enemies go for it instead and giving you a get out of jail free card

I think echo should stay roughly the same besides being pushed farther down the tree

Just make it less of a focus y'know? more of a pure trickster specialty

[modern wren]

ohhh so it would leave a dummy behind you when you vanish

huh.... thats interesting. it could work

[vivid hull]

I also just want to be able to safely lure a bunch of enemies to a dummy then use some reworked bamboozle to explode the clone while tping to it, and also triggering last laugh at the same time, all form vanish lol

[modern wren]

oooh like what you could do is when you vanish, you leave a dummy behind that has all your debuffs, and when the enemy kills the dummy/hits the dummy, all debuffs are transferred to the enemy. and since the dummy is a clone, boom, all your other clones spell and MORE DEBUFFS

[vivid hull]

Like instead of slaying a mirror image clone, bamboozle should warp the user to the clone looked at and slay them in the "brutal fiery slash" AOE, big funny ambush

[modern wren]

huh that could be cool. so it makes the trickster an evasive thing that dumps debuffs and dodges around... that could be cool

also balances bamboozle so you cant spam it to kill clones to make the rest vomit spells

[vivid hull]

trick just needs a good single hit dmg option lol, I think this does that and is a fun mobility gimmick

Even fits the "Bamboozle" name, you see something you KNOW is a fake when it suddenly become the real one lol

[modern wren]

thats cool. so basically the trickster gameplay becomes

clones, take damage to trigger spellspam. throw in vanish + bamboozle when you can to refresh clones and spellspam and do a ton of burst damage

enemy gets debuffs as time goes on, making all of this way safer and maybe adding mana sustain? tricks mana sustain could come from either debuffs or from when clones die

this bamboozle thing fits so well holy crap

thats a really good idea goddamn

[vivid hull]

I feel like shenigans should just give a bit of mana back after a clone dies, as of right now I feel like shenanigans is the worst mana economy perk across all classes

"+1/3s manasteal for every 2% stealing from items, +10/3s manasteal cap" like seriously

I did the math for wieghtless, even after the nerf weightless is still 2x as good AND works with spell hits

[modern wren]

yeah thats kinda crap. i mean it could be when a clone dies, OR it could be based on enemy debuffs

so as the enemy gets more debuffs, trick gets safer and gets its sustain, therefore increasing dps

[spare oyster]

that’s because shenanigans is just a flavor ability, why are you comparing it to weightless

[vivid hull]

I do think that last laugh should just be spin. Random spells seems unreliable.

[modern wren]

because it is the only thing in the trick tree that gives mana regen lol

[vivid hull]

It's the only thing trick has to compare

[modern wren]

every clone does a diff random spell. so it averages out

[vivid hull]

No I mean most debuff stuff and the biggest AOEs to apply the debuff stuff both stem from spin attack, multihit would be useless

[modern wren]

make it so each spell applies diff debuffs. distraction is a general one or you can shift it to just spin does blind, and multi can distraction, smoke slows

all in 1 node that costs 2 AP

[vivid hull]

Maybe a smoke bomb replacement that causes clones to give off a smoke bomb tick when hurt, and makes casting smoke just yeet a clone forward lol

Aaaaaaaand I've remade shaman totem-haul movement for assassin can you guess my second most played class?

[modern wren]

how you make this stack btw is the "blind" decreases the range the enemy can sense you from, so it can stack, and the slow is a stacking slow

[modern wren]

shaman is fun i dont fault you. im leveling one rn

[vivid hull]

Go forth my minions!
And also here take my person juice for healing

[modern wren]

person juice 🤨

[vivid hull]

blud

[modern wren]

i just play acolyte

[vivid hull]

Yeah that's what I was refering to

[modern wren]

ah. i saw minions and went summoner

[vivid hull]

I was refering to both, I just don't have any ritualist experience

[modern wren]

i just run mask of the fanatic and thats it

[vivid hull]

Like I can see the appeal of mask switching but it never got me all that interested myself

More often than not I end up taking maybe 1 mask then dumping everything else into either aco or summoner

[modern wren]

yeah thats my plan

bc my endgame build will be shaman tstack

[vivid hull]

I used to use lunatic, then that aco rework forced lashing lance
At least it made lashing lance useful enough that I finally considered using it, the bleeding buildup is nice with the aspect

[modern wren]

lashing lance is big number

(im lvl 40 ok)

[vivid hull]

I love both serrating and burning my enemies at the same time
Trickster do it too, just they do rapid spins with burning powders covering their weapon

[modern wren]

like... elementally or like concept wise

i like... well acro the best lol. i am biased but it seems like cloudwalking and all of that its so cool

also zoom

[vivid hull]

Acro has a cool theme, just their dps is... questionable at best right now 😦

[spare oyster]

yeah but it’s an unfair comparison when the other mana abilities on assassin are more ap and aren’t flavor abilities

[modern wren]

yeah sadly. but thats 90% of this thread. its all acro stuff. and its confirmed acro rework is in the works

[vivid hull]

That's what I was pointing out though

[vivid hull]

This too now?!
What archetypes AREN'T beign reworked at this point?

[modern wren]

i think its more the order they will do it in

i think trick/acro is near the top tho. i pray. pls ct 😭

[spare oyster]

it’s fine for shenanigans to not be that great since it’s a 1ap white node

[vivid hull]

It almost seems we're in for Spellbound Update 2 here

[spare oyster]

it’s not that meant to be really good

[modern wren]

its prob more like what they are doing rn. just rolling out slight changes from time to time

[spare oyster]

it could have some uses in spellsteal since ms is technically better than mr

[vivid hull]

It's the only mana econ perk for a mana hungry archetype
Kinda sad that it's so bad

[vivid hull]

Yeah my hmelee shade build uses stealing tomes and this for extra manasteal, it def has uses

[slow trail]

basically all archetypes have some level of design issue

[modern wren]

i think they always will, but yall are doing really good making those issues smaller and smaller

[vivid hull]

Well nothing is perfect I guess
Just some things are a little more special than others

[slow trail]

i think lightbender, fallen, summoner, shadestepper (MOSTLY), trapper, sharp (mostly + after ghostly change)

are the most complete and/or need the least changes

in the middle range it’s like

[vivid hull]

So bolt needs changes? Huh

[spare oyster]

i think sharp should get more damage reward compared to bolt since its mechanics is more complicated than bolt

[slow trail]

acolyte (after missing ability added), boltslinger, bmonk, arcanist, paladin, acrobat

[spare oyster]

for spellspam that is

[slow trail]

and maybe ritualist also in the like needs some changes section

the doomed archetypes rn are rift and trick imo

[modern wren]

yeah rift needs more

[vivid hull]

Doomed as in they are getting totally reworked?

[slow trail]

yea debatable

[slow trail]

like they need a rework to be considered well designed

trickster was built in a way where you literally cannot only change a section of the tree and have it be functional or good

rift just has like 2 actual abilities

[modern wren]

i mean you can scavenge some stuff tho cant you? or some concepts

[slow trail]

yea i would keep the cool parts of trickster obv

[vivid hull]

I still like trickster's clone stuff

[modern wren]

like i think you saw my idea for it?

[slow trail]

i wouldn’t get rid of its identity with clones and stuff but like basically everything needs changes at some level

[modern wren]

the weird kill clones do make the rest spell and debuff and all that, and suncrusher had some really cool ideas that also work really well

[slow trail]

yea it was p cool

[vivid hull]

My team is comprised of Jill, Bob, Will, me, me, me, me, me, me, and me

[spare oyster]

i hope these trickster changes give an incentive to like actually use the entire tree route
i don’t think anyone used the entire tree unironically to tackle end game content

[modern wren]

in this sense doesnt lb sorta need it? or is the final red node now actually useful

i dont use lb ok

[vivid hull]

I use the entire tree
...for loot bonus only, but AOE and luring is useful for hitting all the mobs at once

[spare oyster]

the final red node is good

[slow trail]

we have some of our own ideas too but it’s a lot of effort not only to build out the archetype + make sure it actually, you know, plays well and is engaging, fits w other archetypes etc.

and then the hard part is actually implementing it. lmfao.

[spare oyster]

what’s loot bonus gotta do with this

[slow trail]

my current plan is to have all trick nodes be pretty essential and leave u at like 35-37ap/45 or whatever it is

[spare oyster]

i’m referring to diversion and the other unused trickster abilities

[modern wren]

i know. coding shit is hell. every time i do a coding project im able to come up with the ideas super easily, but then SO MNAY BUGS LIKE MY GOD

[modern wren]

can u do this with acro too? so acro actually has ap it can spend on other stuff

[slow trail]

yea implementing is. definitely the hard part. i feel like anyone can come up with concepts and it takes some skill to make them coherent and work together but it’s not an impossible feat

[vivid hull]

It's the only use I've found for pure trickster lol, it's mana hungry but unlike the other 2 you aren't always completely useless if mana runs out, meanign I also don't have to build mana sustain much, focus on loot bonus

[slow trail]

i don’t really think acro with marks is something id love

[vivid hull]

This is why I do not envy dev teams lol

[spare oyster]

i’m fine with it as long as it has a use for the entire tree path, usually full trees have like 8 ap extra if the 1-2ap nodes of that archetype aren’t really that good

[slow trail]

i have the best volunteer job ever it’s so good. i just make the ideas, any item making stuff doesn’t require real coding and i get a new toy to play with for a few weeks, and i just need to like play the thing someone else made and give feedback on it

if i had to code anything id fucking hate it i bet LOL

i do not envy the gms

[vivid hull]

Ideas man works for all of 5 mins before quality drops off and you run out of creativity (most people most of the time)

[modern wren]

goddammit 😭 i was literally 2 AP away from making the tree work. 2 AP

[slow trail]

yah

[modern wren]

i sorta want to apply but im also scared ill a: pitch stupid stuff or b: not pitch anything too useful c: get rejected flat out

[spare oyster]

you should make jasmine bloom echo into a reality

7 jasmine blooms 😱

[slow trail]

ngl with my current idea you could get away with not taking final red but itd be a big deficit and idt just taking marks would be better

[slow trail]

so true

[slow trail]

well the apps closed so it is what it is at this point

[vivid hull]

This sounds not just broken but shattered harder than the sky islands after sky colossus happened

[slow trail]

i think item maker ones are open till the 15th tho

[modern wren]

oh it is? damn too late :/

[slow trail]

also i had a cool idea for jasmine bloom ngl i doubt it’ll end up happening though . bit too silly

[vivid hull]

Spit out?

[slow trail]

idt i can

[modern wren]

dude i make really silly shit nothing can be worse than what i come up with

[spare oyster]

jasmine bloom instead affects any mob above you

[slow trail]

amen

underground acrobat reverses gravity as final red node

[modern wren]

🔥

[vivid hull]

Funny secret fabled dagger major ID

[vivid jungle]

We'll have to see since It could be needing a mana bank and mana overflow to expend a ridiculously powerful spell.

[spare oyster]

new backstab major id: backstab always procs but is aimed behind you

[modern wren]

when do applications reopen and when did they close btw?

[slow trail]

atree ones opened i think early december or late november

they closed sometime before the holidays

[vivid hull]

Comes only from that barracks north of cinfras, made by one of lecede's men while the slime think was impersonating him

[modern wren]

goddammit 😭 i was working on my application and didnt do it in time ig lol

[slow trail]

rip

u should send it i can give u feedback

[vivid hull]

You see, I can avoid this kind of disappointment by being too intimidated/lazy to consider applying in the first place

[modern wren]

i will sometime lol. once i finish writing up the absolute atrocity (there is a reason i dont get an a in english ever)

i should just dm? or send thru idk

[slow trail]

just dm me yea

[modern wren]

whatever thats for a later day rn its beg you to reveal what the jbloom idea is

[slow trail]

if i know for certain it won’t happen when acro changes eventually get worked out fully i’ll send it

[modern wren]

ok ok

[slow trail]

im pretty sure it won’t but . ya know

[spare oyster]

can 1.20 dash flight return in the form of a major id

[modern wren]

do you have a guess when it will be?

[slow trail]

i think it would be devtime 💀

[spare oyster]

naurr

[modern wren]

constantly reset dash?

[slow trail]

no like after 3 seconds so you could kinda sorta fly with just dash

[modern wren]

huh

so every 3 seconds dash resets?

[slow trail]

look up a yt vid of old assassin flying you’ll see

[vivid jungle]

You're telling me acrostepper existed before archetypes existed!

[slow trail]

it was closer to shade ngl

[vivid hull]

I didn't realize assassin could fly before spellbound added acro

[slow trail]

but now shade actually has knives and stuff

[modern wren]

i cant find it :/

[vivid jungle]

acrostepper I meant

[slow trail]

yea your strong dash would reset after just enough time to gain height with it

[modern wren]

pls space flower make this possible let me run marks on assassin 😭

[vivid jungle]

Which is a combination of both, even though both wouldn't really get along

[vivid hull]

Give trick a perk that makes enemy kills have a chance to just spontaneously create clones

[vivid jungle]

Why chance

[slow trail]

just put it on a cooldown instead

[vivid hull]

yeah that's better

[modern wren]

that could go thru a harvester situation tho

[vivid jungle]

Today I realized Trix needs a bunch of manpower as well.

[modern wren]

ig if it was optional it would be fine

[modern wren]

wdym?

[vivid jungle]

Oh I meant to fix the archetype.

Honestly, worse case scenario is that they just rename the archetype LOL.

[modern wren]

nah trickster fits. and they could lean into the trickster thing with well... being a pest that dances around the enemy, constantly vanishing unvanishing, leaving dupes, punishing you for killing the clones, hurling debuffs, etc

[vivid hull]

Trickster uses clones to trick targets, the name def fits well

[vivid jungle]

I want it to work and I'm genuinely trying to come up with stuff that would make it unique enough for it to be distinguished from just spell spam.

Namesake

[modern wren]

its movement/gameplay/theme? dodging around enemies, taking calculated damage to trigger your main damage, etc

[vivid hull]

Trick's gameplay would become an effort to summon and manage clones and their positions, no?
Bamboozle becomes a tool to squeeze one last bit of usefulness from a nearly dead clone, or as an extra mobility tool.
Last Laugh gives clones the... last laugh.

[vivid hull]

I was thinking making clones take the damage in your stead. The effects mostly trigger when the clones take damage.

[modern wren]

i was thinking your bamboozle was mobility/debuff cleansing and just extra control and damage

[vivid jungle]

Trickster intentionally getting itself hit adds the risk factor that we all know and love about assassin... but that doesn't really feel like a smart thing.

[modern wren]

last laugh/when clones die all others spell is your main damage

[modern wren]

bamboozle is the safe way to kill clones and trigger the damage

[slow trail]

trickster intentionally getting itself hit is a fundamentally bad mechanic imo

[modern wren]

suncrusher's bamboozle at least

[slow trail]

as fun as it can be

[vivid hull]

I like the debuff cleansing idea, any debuffs the enemy has are "cleansed" or burnt away, doing extra damage for every debuff

[vivid jungle]

It doesn't make that much sense anyway.

[modern wren]

OOOH yeah. like bamboozle is your finisher/big damage in that case? you trigger it to kill the dupe clone, causing the clones around you to spell, AND it cashes in on all the debuffs you dumped, AND it thematically fits cuz bamboozle is a fiery slash

[slow trail]

wait this is actually cool

[vivid hull]

I still feel like last laugh should still just be an on-death effect for the clone that died, not all the other clones

[slow trail]

im stealing it

[vivid hull]

By all means I would LOVE to do that

[modern wren]

i think it should be the main thing for trickster. all the other clones spell, and that dumps debuffs, etc

[vivid jungle]

What does this mean

[compact summit]

Trickster becoming tenebrist... is this real chat

[slow trail]

idk if trickster should even be debuff heavy cause it’s hard to make that kinda gameplay feel snappy and trickstery… but if it does then it’s a rly cool idea

[vivid hull]

Enemy has full distraction? +30% or smthn exta fire damage. Choke slow? Another 25% of smthn. Blind? another 35% or smthn. On bamboozle hit, also ending all the debuffs at once.

[slow trail]

i would prob tweak it a bit tho

[vivid jungle]

You stack debuffs and bamboozle them to hit them hard?

[spare oyster]

can we bring back 1.20’s ninja vanish clone as its “trick” ability

[modern wren]

exactly, thhats the gameplan

[vivid hull]

Would be busted as a shade hybrid though, all those multipliers may outdo backstab lol

[modern wren]

suncrusher said this and i agree 100%

[modern wren]

make them exclusive

[vivid hull]

Unless bamboozle base damage is nerfed

[vivid hull]

I might be able to get behind that

[modern wren]

also should trick have the "when a clone dies all other spell" or nah, and what would you replace it with. like in my eyes it ties everything together, but also i want to hear why yall disagree

[vivid hull]

Feels disconected, like Echo with a less reliable trigger as well

[vivid jungle]

I wanted trick to do something against more lethal attacks

[modern wren]

but how would you tie everything together?

[vivid hull]

Well each clone would already be grabbing agro, I was thinking they have either have some kind of thornes equivalent or constant dmg AOE maybe, possibly a bit of both. OR the clones' primary purpose is to keep the enemies preoccupied for other damage abilities

I can see a team support trickster being popular if it has THIS much agro control

[modern wren]

i was thinking that clones stay as a 2 hit shield each, but they are meant to take the damage and pop, so last laugh triggers and you dump damage, status effects, etc

maybe make it so last laugh makes the clone that died cast a random spell? or maybe your last cast spell, or it can be in a cycle

first that dies casts spin, then next to die casts multi, then smoke

[vivid hull]

Maybe give them iframes and some "stronger clones" perks that cost 1ap each as well, to increase their max hits before disapearing

[modern wren]

but then that has anti-synergy with last laugh

[vivid hull]

Just make them optional then ig

[vivid jungle]

Do we want its gameplay loop to be just sacrificing its clones

[modern wren]

good point tbh

[vivid hull]

Kinda? It's making enemies repeatedly fall for tricks and have their targets blow up in their faces

[modern wren]

yeah thats true too... i actually like it being a clone sac

ur meant to confuse your enemy with clones so they strike at one, then punish them for doing so

[vivid hull]

Exactly

[modern wren]

i really want last laugh to cast more than just spin tho

[vivid hull]

Good point people would want this

[modern wren]

and random spell is inconsistent

[vivid hull]

Make multihit stunlock more accessible?

[modern wren]

ig what could be done is after recasting vanish and getting ur clones back, it resets the cycle of which ones cast which spell. first to die casts spin, second multi, third smoke

it gives more control and needs you to know where in the clone death cycle you are, but thats skill and could be fun

[vivid hull]

I kinda wanted there to just be a small handful of ways to summon clones, like you summon one on you when you leave vanish, you leave one behind when entering vanish, you can make smoke bomb summon one on impact maybe, etc

[modern wren]

hmm

so vanish doesn't fully refresh all clones?

[vivid hull]

I guess not

Does it need to?

[modern wren]

that sets it apart from mantle actually

[vivid jungle]

sigh another shift to trigger

[vivid hull]

?

[modern wren]

so exiting vanish will give you 2 clones (i think it should give more), entering leaves 1 clone behind

[vivid jungle]

Shift dash to vanish and then summon a clone

[vivid hull]

That don't seem bad

[vivid jungle]

If that is what he meant

[modern wren]

and it updates the death cycle too. and no, what it does is vanish just summons a clone behind you by default. like a decoy clone that the enemy will aggro on

[vivid hull]

I mean when you enter vanish one is left behind automatically

[vivid jungle]

Do you want the clones to be stationary

[modern wren]

and when that clone dies, last laugh triggers. also only the decoy clone is stationary, the rest are normal clones

[vivid hull]

Oh and max clones, should old clones die automatically when a new one past the max is summoned or do no new ones summon?

[modern wren]

no new ones summon

you can have at max 1 decoy and 3 normal(6 normal with the upgrade)

[vivid hull]

I was thinking that, but wasn't quite sure if that was the best thing
Any ideas?

[modern wren]

the normal clones circle around you like current clones, the decoy is stationary

[vivid jungle]

It could be an archetype that requires some micromanagement and that's where its skill expression comes.

[modern wren]

thats where the death cycle thing comes in

[vivid hull]

It'd be pretty annoying if your precisely placed agro attracting machine just walked out of its spot

[modern wren]

depending on which clone dies, it will cast a diff spell with last laugh, so you have to vanish and all that to make sure the clone casts the right spell

[vivid hull]

Loop is you summon clone -> enemy attacks clone -> enemy is punished for attacking clone as they attack, and also when clone dies
Current loop is more you summon clones -> enemy attacks YOU -> enemy is punished for attacking YOU

Very similar just more thematically in trickster instead of wierd quasi tank thing I think

[vivid jungle]

I guess maybe your clones don't orbit around you at mach speed when you decide to look in another direction

[modern wren]

honestly yeah making them stationary would be better

but also a bit too easy

[vivid hull]

I was thinking they'd no longer be bound to the player unless mirror image is used

(I like running around with my fellow 3 me's)

[modern wren]

the decoy can basically be the super safe lure. when entering vanish, you leave a decoy, and the enemy will aggro on that. the normal clones just tank for you and punsh the enemy for hitting you

[vivid hull]

These changes would also remove the need for delirious gas and black hole no?

[modern wren]

decoy is max of 1, and if you make a new one the old one is deleted (so no last laugh). the others are max of 3-6

[modern wren]

yep. honestly del gas kinda just exists and doesnt work well*

[vivid hull]

Well wouldn't all the clones be decoys anyways?

[vivid jungle]

I was thinking a clone dying produces the gas previously.

[vivid hull]

Unless you Mirror Image them to you they standin place and attact agro I was thinking

[modern wren]

i was thinking the decoy clone attracts aggro while the normal clones act like a shield

[vivid hull]

I was thinking clones are like stationary decoys, and Mirror Image brings nearby ones (up to 3) to you to act similar to old clones

[modern wren]

ohhhh ok. i like the clones shield thing tho, bc having all be decoys makes trickster really super safe

maybe make it so the enemies aggro onto a random decoy OR you?

[vivid hull]

Yeah I'm not willing to sacrifice my hmelee build, it NEEDS mirror image dr lol

[vivid jungle]

They aggro onto a decoy

Also like, I think it needs some risk and skill so it isn't just immortal.

[modern wren]

thats super safe tho. up to 3 decoys, and you can constantly resummon more

[vivid hull]

Go in vanish to take enemy agro off of you, so that they go for clones instead

[modern wren]

why i think it should be max of 1 decoy with 3 normal clones

[vivid hull]

I was thinking multiple decoys at once

[vivid jungle]

Maybe you, the real player, after taking too much damage causes the clones to disappear.

[modern wren]

the boss will barely hit u tho

[vivid hull]

Just 1 decoy at a time would not last long

[modern wren]

thats the point, you have the other 3 normal clones to shield for you

[vivid jungle]

Well even if the boss is aggroed onto a decoy, you can still get hit as collateral damage.

That's what I kind of thought.

[modern wren]

way less likely tho. but maybe?

[vivid jungle]

So maybe you needed some sort of awareness.

[modern wren]

still it would be like permanent vanish tho and thats a bit busted

[vivid hull]

Bamboozle allows you to stay well away until an opening comes no?

When the opening comes, bamboozle into the fray

[vivid jungle]

I may have missed some stuff from above.

[modern wren]

i was thinking that bamboozle is ur big burst damage, not to engage