Ranking Raids Off Amount Done is... Stupid.

[neat bay]

It's worth noting that its technically based on SP gained I believe, but with how sp is rewarded, that's almost the something. Givin that it was a time based leader bored, you could have rewarded sp based on position placed on the leader bored, making good finishes still relevant.

[silent meadow]

As much as i want to have a time-based raids leaderboard, it would just cause unnecessary toxicity and troubles for moderators

Given the raid community these days, if theres actually a public leaderboard for raid time, it would descend into a bug abusing or even cheating hell (nice elder change guys). Gatekeeping would also become more severe and players would not be willing to share strategies of the raids because they would want less competitors.

And then toxicity would also be an issue— if someone made someone not beat one’s pb after hours of grinding, chances are one would get mad and start acting toxic.

Like really skyblock dungeons had shown me how horrible of an idea it is to even display personal bests (in fact, everything i described above has been a serious issue in skyblock, and I even understated some of it), and I do not want raids in wynn to spiral down into another breeding ground of toxicity

[neat bay]

The salutation isn't to make the leaderboard to meaningless that it doesn't matter.
As it is, the only reason it isn't toxic (Assuming it would be toxic if the leaderboard was competitive, which I don't necessarily believe.) is because no one cares. As it stands it might as well not exist. It displays nothing, means nothing, and provides nothing, if it isn't toxic now, then thats the reason.

[silent meadow]

this was in fact also the case with personal bests in sb, in fact there wasn't even an official leaderboard for it, there was merely just access to it in the API, and they do not matter physically.

yet, it eventually devolved into whatever toxic degenerate shit, people getting ego-ed for not having a top notch pb, non-cheaters being excluded from good parties (i remember some dungeon players being kicked out of a party for not using autoterms). In fact, cheats were NORMALISED, and it was not a good sight to see.

raid amount done is obviously a dumb thing to be as leaderboard, but it is in a cooperative rather than competitive nature. Some people do care about completions leaderboard even tho they physically mean nothing, but they are mostly not toxic because they want to play with other raidas, contributing to a friendly environment between the top level raidas.

however by creating a time-based leaderboard, the people who care will start cheating their ass off to get a good pb. And given that freshxd2 did like 2k tcc runs while blatantly cheating without getting caught until he exposed himself, the moderation system of wynn cannot afford the risk of adding a leaderboard like that.

i simply do not want to see the same thing happening to wynn

[wispy apex]

shadyaddons 🔥

[tiny basin]

oringo 😻

[neat bay]

1. It's worth noting that the leaderboard is a guilds overall record, not an individual player.
2. There are ways to fix this, which I wasn't specifically going to get into because this is a feedback post, not a suggestion, but one is to make leaderboards seasonal, which would make a guilds ability to reproduce results more important then their ability to have a one of good run. (Assuming cheaters get banned eventually, their damage wouldn't be permanent and would likely lead to the guild in question getting a lot of blowback)

---

Finally, I want to cover the actual mindset you have. I understand why you maybe scared of adding something of a competitive nature, I do, but being scared to add something due protentional toxicity, leads to uninteresting features. The reason I went on about it being meaningless earlier, is because the only way to avoid making a leaderboard of any kind entirely untoxic is to making it boring, unfun, or meaningless. Boring features may not lead to anything toxic, but they won't lead to anything fun either.

[silent meadow]

even if its only guild-overall record, it will still lead to the same issue of a cheater-dominant leaderboard (like really i have seen too many people getting away with bug abusing and cheating so i can assure you that cheaters wont get banned if they are not stupid)

the way you suggested would not change much due to the lack of raid moderation, and it is more complicated than just spectating more guild raids. It is easy for cheaters to reproduce results (i would not further elaborate on this because i do not want to encourage cheating and bug abusing, but cheats and bugs in wynn are more overpowered than you think), and way harder for legit players to do so.

i very much agree with what you want, a meaningful leaderboard that isnt dominated by a few big guilds would be extremely cool, its just that unfortunately wynn cannot afford the cost such leaderboard would bring to the community. The warring scene is already toxic, we do not want more of that.

it is really just something that we have to give up on

[granite minnow]

holy yap

[full phoenix]

also raid are up to many changes from 2.0 to 2.1
some high leaderboard score are made impossible due to changes in either boss mechanics and room changes (ie tcc lava room)

which made time-based leaderboard unfair to those who have not attempted older version of those raid and generally create unnecessary complication within the community aforementioned

[ionic lake]

I totally agree but also want to mention that the raids are being changed pretty frequently rn so there would be many wipes

[wild edge]

i'm with wisedrag on this. Adding a competitiveness to raids is just not a good idea. I'm still against the damage leaderboard existing but a leaderboard for all players with raid times done? Yeah people are going to use that maliciously. HSB showed how toxic the speedrunning mindset can get in this type of content.

[neat bay]

I will say again, it's for guilds, not individuals.
Also I tried not to limit it to time based.

I pretty specifically mention my idea for the gambit based version. Tbh I'm not sure how this conversation has ended up being about a time based leaderbored specifically.

[scarlet bobcat]

The leaderboard is by score, not runs, isn't it? Score factors in gambits

I don't think there's a better way to display a leaderboard than score. PBs would only show 4 people and wouldn't be representative of a guild and averages would only discourage newer players

[weary smelt]

Dont worry, i'm gonna put some bounty just to make the event even more chaotic in case they add this

Imagine a timed leaderboard AND "the party that has completed the fastest tna gets 40stx"
That would degenerate so fast

[neat bay]

It shows seasonal ranking, which is granted through completions and gambit, but mostly completions.

You don't have to blindly believe they are the samething, you can go to the leaderbored yourself. Number of runs and Sr received is virtually the same all the way down.

[spark beacon]

what happens when we patch a raid (which is a fairly frequent occurrence) and that makes it slower to run?

wiping the entire leaderboard whenever such a thing happens seems like a silly solution

[pseudo flax]

salutations

[weary smelt]

Please add this, i want more chaos in wynncraft

plsssssssssssssss

[granite minnow]

How about success rate leaderboard💀

How to make people allergic to pfinder 101

[scarlet bobcat]

Base sr is 200 and max is 440 with gambits so it’s not “mostly completions”

[slender musk]

well you dont get gambit points without the completion

idk what im arguing for but you need completions to get gambit points

[scarlet bobcat]

Why would you receive sr for failing a raid 😭

[slender musk]

i never said you should

personally i think the individual boards work fine the way they are right now.
small guilds definitely cant compete for guild raid boards but i dont think this is a bad thing

[lusty relic]

do not look FRMR placement on graid lb rn lol

or it might be raids total actually i forget, were like 15 members top smth

[rough rapids]

simply keep 27 different leaderboards for all the different versions of the raid

[lusty relic]

its totally possible you just need your small guild to be full of losers

[slender musk]

i mean yeah i am in the guild with the most raids and we only have 60 members

its just guild raids are hard to get for us

[lusty relic]

with 60 people theyre hard?

[ionic lake]

…

with 120 people it is hard

very few people actually raid which is surprising because so many of them prof which is just objectively worse in every way

[slender musk]

most of us busy with school / jobs nowadays but we are just way more pfinder pilled

[lusty relic]

yeah thats p real, most of our schedules line up p well so ig that helps

pfinder pilled is cray

[pseudo flax]

pfinder goated

[full phoenix]

NoL pfinder 🔥🔥🔥

[neat bay]

As mentioned earlier, you could have it be seasonal

[spark beacon]

raid changes quite often happen mid season

[ionic lake]

yeah and it also isn’t only raid changes

any item changes also can affect raids

[clear cave]

bug fixes affect raids too 😁

[brave scroll]

this is a terrible idea lol, this post completely disregards the fact that each raid room takes a different amount of time

and theyre completely RNG to get, while also having plenty of RNG factors to them (some a lot more than others), while others take a static amount of time no matter the skill expression

this idea would not fundamentally function

[clear cave]

for real

it doesnt take into account how buffs and nerfs of items, abilities, mobs, etc will affect the rankings

and fixing of bugs/new bugs being introduced (dont lie we all know some raiders would abuse bugs to get faster times)

theres the rng factor, the skyrocketing toxicity because people arent running "fast enough" for other people

[brave scroll]

2.0 void matter room

[clear cave]

but yeah the leaderboard just does not work because of all the changes that can (and do) happen

[brave scroll]

and it’d also be a total pain in the ass to grind. take nol for example, getting resource room over cloud room and getting Maze over Tower speeds up the raid time by like, 2-2.5 minutes. then Orphion has some super RNG based attacks that allow you to have some insane openings for damage if controlled properly with provoke. the whole leaderboard would just be a total RNG fest of people running the same builds and just praying the stars align to get them to the top

[clear cave]

for real

[brave scroll]

if raid rooms were made more equally i could see this working, but alas they aren’t, nor do i think they should be.

[clear cave]

yeah it would be kinda ass if all the raid rooms played the exact same because of pressure from the timer obsessed raiders

the diversity is a GOOD THING

!!

[brave scroll]

[lusty relic]

you say this like most speedruns arent already like this lmfao (this is not an endorsement of the post)

[hollow moth]

Omg guys im top 1 tcc player bc i played it when we had trapstack, wings bug, 5hp, no flames and my pb is way faster than you can even get close to now

[granite minnow]

Single wing skip is still here apparently

But is super gatekept