Bak'als grasp should block mantle of the bovemists

[crude furnace]

In a game called don't starve together, there is a character that deals more damage the less HP they have, commonly known as a glass Cannon, however, there is the twist that this character can equip an armor that almost fully nullifies damage by 95% reduction, which makes it not matter even if you're at 35 HP because nothing will ever deal enough damage to kill you

Sound familiar?

Why should the glass Cannon archetype that is basically bashscream with 400k DPS with free healing with either exhilarate, intoxicating blood and even easily accessible rally items, ALSO get access to one of the strongest tanking abilities of any archetype

It doesn't solve the issue of fallen being way too strong for barely any risk (with warrior having the highest damage res of all classes, war scream damage res, and even stuff like brink of madness and the first Paladin node if you want it) but it'd be a start

[digital mauve]

this severely limits the versatility of the tree as a whole. heavily disagree on this change.

[white surge]

Fallen being way too strong for barely any risk

[crude furnace]

Play shadestepper with lacerate and then tell me about tree versatility

Why are the warrior and mage trees so open while other archetypes are so closed

Its not healthy that a GLASS CANNON gets access to damage nullification

[digital mauve]

entirely different class

[crude furnace]

Regardless of how you try to justify it

[crude furnace]

"oh no I have to go under 80% max HP to deal quadruple damage, whatever will I do now"

[digital mauve]

i'd be more inclined to like this post more if you instead suggested that being in corrupted would lessen the effects of Mantles, but this is just a horrible idea that needlessly cuts tree variance.

but even then i still would disagree

[crude furnace]

Again, why should the glass Cannon archetype have damage nullification

[white surge]

May I ask what nodes mantles substitute? You might be losing out on a lot of damage.

[crude furnace]

Explain the balancing there

[digital mauve]

im not part of the balancing team, that is not my job

[crude furnace]

You don't, you can take every single fallen damage node (except Ragnarok) and still have enough points to take mantle

And even brink

[white surge]

But you won't get access to Fallen's other nodes?

[digital mauve]

i think you can? lemme try the tree

[crude furnace]

Except that I told you that you literally do...

[white surge]

You play at low ehp anyway.

How impactful are the mantles? I'd be fine with making them less effective while corrupted.

[digital mauve]

https://hppeng-wynn.github.io/builder/?v=8#9_2SG2SH2SI2SJ2SK2SL2SM2SN0Qi0A0A00002C1g000000z0z0+0+0+0+0-1TzUjJ7l-6 i could get this tree to work i guess? feels optimizable but yeah you can get mantles

[haughty kernel]

Increase ur ehp by like 3x for 3 hits

But the thing is that 3x of 1k hp is like 3k, which u still would die to most things anyway

[digital mauve]

either way i just dont think entirely limiting mantles (or so much of the pala tree) from fallen is a good idea. if i had to give a solution to this "problem" it'd probably be to just lessen the effects of the mantles while in corrupted, but even then i just dont see this as a necessary solution to a problem that barely exists in my opinion

[sage solstice]

Me when mantle is better for fallen than paladin 😭

[atomic yoke]

This is bait guys just dont interact with this shit

[haughty kernel]

True

[sage solstice]

https://tenor.com/view/xafer-trollgentleman-trollface-troll-gif-10531994125107892258

[exotic lily]

yummy fresh foxxo shitpost

[haughty kernel]

It is also human mechanism that when one problem is solve we will need to find another "problem" to solve

[exotic lily]

i dont need to say how deranged every sentance of that post is, i'll just be very glad to read more bait :)

its funny!!

[haughty kernel]

And I think this post is one of the case

[crude furnace]

Y'all got too much brainrot if you think a glass Cannon having damage nullification is balanced

Its bad in other games and it's bad here too

[haughty kernel]

Also dont starve is more of scarce resource game, wynn is rpg, idk why u would compare the 2 games

[haughty kernel]

What would 3k hp nullify

[sage solstice]

The resources stop being scarce after like day 50~. After that point the game is a boss rush (not too dissimilar from wynn)

[haughty kernel]

Never played it that far

[crude furnace]

Anything, I can't name exactly every attack that it would nullify but it isn't worthless

[haughty kernel]

U just cant think of any attack, low dmg? They would be rapid and it would remove mantle very fast

High dmg? 3k hp aint gonna survive

[mental tendon]

you are so freaky

this was alr talked abt in the at thread too buh

[digital mauve]

this kind of mantles problem i could only see existing in TNA boss, but even then there are plenty of attacks that would quickly remove the mantles leaving plenty of room for vulnerability

[crude furnace]

Oh, when

[digital mauve]

oh it was? loool

[mental tendon]

I thjnj so I might be misrembring

[haughty kernel]

Crazy

[mental tendon]

but I remember foxxo bringing it up and other people saying it's risky as shit and then foxxo saying brink would save you from a one tap at 10% hp(me when I lie)

[digital mauve]

that would only realistically save you from super small hits

[crude furnace]

No fallen ever gets at 10% HP, that's a myth to justify just how strong it is

[haughty kernel]

What was foxxo om lmao

[crude furnace]

Most fallens play at like 30% or so

[digital mauve]

ok now youre just talking crazy, what??

[mental tendon]

vro does NOTplay bpact...

[haughty kernel]

Lmao I play it to 5% hp

[digital mauve]

do you even know how to play fallen? what do you use?

[haughty kernel]

This mf plays sharpshooter only

[rare current]

Foxxo do remind me again
I know you don't play bender but have you played a lot of fallen

[crude furnace]

I've played Alka fallen

[digital mauve]

so you should know that you get the most value, and the majority of fallen's damage, at very low HP right?

so why would fallens not play around the riskiness of getting to that low hp?

[crude furnace]

Its not as low it'd seem, but it's pretty low

[digital mauve]

i literally play fallen. i know what im talking about

[mental tendon]

average foxxo hyperfixation without understandin shi

[haughty kernel]

Frfr

[north olive]

casual shitty take dropped, been a while

[inland egret]

you guys maintain hp ?

[mental tendon]

do NOT look at at questions.....

[digital mauve]

yeah i think this is more of a he plays at 30% hp for whatever reason

[cloud veldt]

Kinda missed it ngl

Guy who says he doesnt play the game complains the most

[haughty kernel]

It does depend on what kind of party ur on and u gotta gauge how risky can u play but generally I still go below 10%

[digital mauve]

definitely shows when it comes to these fallen takes

[north olive]

unfortunately i have before

[inland egret]

also 30% is basically 10% unless you play the air stick

[haughty kernel]

Top 10 foxxo post of all time

[inland egret]

they should delete hero ngl

[north olive]

people that give their opinions on playstyles they have no experience in are the best

[digital mauve]

given the context is under mantles, i would assume it is?

[haughty kernel]

Nooo my walking stick

[grand isle]

Extreme ignorance

[haughty kernel]

How will I ever have 3 billion ws

[cloud veldt]

Warp is crying

[inland egret]

combining mantles and hero at this point is insane

[digital mauve]

lol yeah, i just dont know what else would use it

[haughty kernel]

Warp with 9 trillion ws and inf dodge

[crude furnace]

It's balanced dw

[inland egret]

build ws with tcrack unless craftedphobia has claimed another

[haughty kernel]

Nah I dont hate crafteds

[inland egret]

then Win

[haughty kernel]

Crafteds r fine, expensive but anything for raiding builds

I make money spent back after 20 raids anyway

[inland egret]

but bro I have no ehp I absolutely cannot take plat in tna or survive outside tree 🥺🥺

[haughty kernel]

Me when warp has to stand still for 3 seconds(they will be gobbed)

[crude sleet]

Play blunt force a bit

[gaunt anchor]

Don’t get why that’s relevant

[crude sleet]

I think that best showcases how fallen plays

[fading grove]

to invest in mantles you need to spend 5 points
that’s a lot of points (to me)

[inland egret]

it’s like this whole post was made with the air stick in mind because these resistance factors mean nothing at 10-15kehp. If you want to be a noob and combine 150 agi with mantles sure you can

[fading grove]

since a lot of the time you need to go through flaming uppercut, fire damage, and iron lungs which can be pretty antisynergetic/not necessarily desirable with nuance
think it’s fine

[mental tendon]

#1265241987771006976 message
ok I found qhay I remembered It wasn't abt mantles but brink close enough:3

[crude furnace]

Its antisynergistic and not "playstyle disabling"

[trail whale]

damage reduction not nullification 💀 you can die through mantle to a surprising ammount of attacks, not to mention going for mantle hamstrings your ability to spec further into fallen, trees i use w/ mantle on fallen typically cannot get access to axe kick, BL, hemorrhage, or exhi which are all incredibly powerful nodes, and are forced to go for a sustained fallen playstyle w/ upperscream, forgoeing the burst utility and less risky playstyle of upperbash, this is a serious "i dont play the archetype much yet feel the need to complain about it" issue

[fading grove]

this will hit tstack (if they decide to go for it)
honestly don’t see fallen with mantles very often anyway and I don’t use fallen with mantles

[trail whale]

not to mention the application of mantle on fallen is literally relegated exclusively to hero upperscream as far as im aware, anywhere else youd take it is way too much of a damage loss to even be considerable, if this were truly a balance concern, in the hyper minmaxxed meta wynn raids have right now, surely more than a single, below par, playstyle would run it

[trail whale]

yeah mb alka tstack would get hit as well LMAO, as if the provoke goofiness taking away radiance wasnt enough

truly 2 playstyles at the forefront of balance destruction in wynn

[viscid burrow]

Another bad post to make me laugh

[trail whale]

what this feels like, is you looked at fallen, saw "squishy for high damage" looked at mantle and saw "slappable ehp" and without any consideration for how they apply in practice decided they must be op because in concept it seems too much, without actually seeing how it works in reality

[lone tinsel]

i dont think this is the biggest problem with fallen tbh

[exotic lily]

lmfao

[inland egret]

Agree they should delete hero instead

[trail whale]

me when i leave almost half my burst damage on the table for 0 reason lmfao

[atomic yoke]

you guys are all fallen apologists

[trail whale]

much stronger builds than hero exist idk why youd wanna touch hero

[inland egret]

I don’t like it

[fading grove]

all heros disappear and an enemy in fruma wields it with a bmonk tree

[trail whale]

real

[exotic lily]

because im foxxochan and i cant handle being on low hp cuz i play hero all the time :(((

[atomic yoke]

<@&268142859327242242> can we enforce rule 8 at some point?

[trail whale]

let it be known that the milisecond hero gets nerfed tcrack is just going to take its place and be infinitely more oppressive since it hits borderline cbomb numbers rn

[exotic lily]

had any mods actually enforced that foxxo wouldnt have gotten past like 2 posts 💀

[mental tendon]

sentence foxxo to the 🐦 fate

[viscid burrow]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1294813380464607384/1321680823438544957/quithorsingaround.gif

[trail whale]

bro this guy would be shot in the head already if mods got to decide what trolling is or not

[lone tinsel]

me when i ping mods because i dont agree with someone

[crude furnace]

Let them, it's useless to try and argue, at least mods think more than the regular people who dislike me

[exotic lily]

i mean this is pretty obviously bait post but also i doubt its getting addressed

[trail whale]

isnt hero literally the only meta fallen build that stays at 10% hp for a prolonged period of time?

[lone tinsel]

how is it bait exactly?

[fading grove]

I mean bpact changes and bloodlust were created so that people would have an incentive not to do that

[exotic lily]

cuz every single word of that post is more deranged than i believe any living human being can be

[trail whale]

many of us actually made real arguments before taking it less seriously if u wanna read those instead of acting like everyone here is just out to get you on principle

[north olive]

he doesn’t know how to read it’s pointless to make any argument

[viscid burrow]

I think its more they make so many bad takes it borders on bait because they make comments that incentive this like “you are all stupid, I’M the smart one”

[mental tendon]

they have been consistently been making uninformed posts that are basically just shitposts at this point
even after talking abt it with others in other channels or their feedback posts they just ignore most feedback or act like they the breastest in the world

[inland egret]

we all know this is the best way to persuade people

[digital mauve]

lol

[timid mulch]

[mental tendon]

yeah they act like they th breastest in the world
truly a 🐦 moment

[timid mulch]

why mod ping

[viscid burrow]

Do i ask what you meant by this

[inland egret]

🫃

[crude furnace]

Ask @atomic yoke

[lone tinsel]

its bait allegedly (its not they just disagree with his opinion)

[mental tendon]

nip nop referenc

[viscid burrow]

Truly a straw that broke the camels back moment?

[viscid burrow]

Oh my goodness gracious

[trail whale]

im convinced you just make these to get in yelling matches with people there is real feedback ideas and criticism in this post and you choose to ignore it to complain about the minority that arent taking you seriously

[inland egret]

that guy is based was he banned

[timid mulch]

i dont see any bait its just some feedback on fallen idk how the thread is progressing tho

[mental tendon]

perma muted for being too rude when giving feedback or smth I forogr

[inland egret]

aw man

[viscid burrow]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1162564880583381133/1301423238840061952/watermark.gif

[trail whale]

"speaking privelages revoked for being too based" is what im reading

[crude furnace]

I'm having lunch, I will look at the arguments for allowing mantles in fallen in a bit

[trail whale]

literal 1984

[viscid burrow]

His temper didnt help tho lol
Part as to why there gone

[trail whale]

i knew him back in like 2020-21 he was cool back then idk if that changed at all

[lone tinsel]

people are just so alien to the general concept of having differing opinions that they think someone suggesting something that doesnt match their opinion is ragebait

[crude furnace]

Real...

[viscid burrow]

He was cool bsck then but nip nop now is WAY different

[trail whale]

how so i need u to derail the thread and turn it into nipnop lore drop sesh

preferably multiple paragraphs

[lone tinsel]

2.0 changed bro

[viscid burrow]

Im on phome ya gotta wait lol

[exotic lily]

Ye it happens a lot but this time nobody with a functioning body can reasonably tell me it's actually serious
Like ok the toxic disagreement part is present in wynn community but this time it's a rare case it's kinda warranted

[exotic lily]

Simped ava too hard

[viscid burrow]

It did

[trail whale]

at least be willing to hear him out when he gets back from lunch he said he was gonna read the real criticism surely something positive comes of that 🙏

[timid mulch]

no more nip nop discussions

[mental tendon]

birdc

[trail whale]

ok but like this is kinda real it started becoming a bit much about when i stopped interacting with the community

[exotic lily]

Ik nothing positive will come of that because foxxo lol
May or may not read if I feel bored

[atomic yoke]

Not when foxxochan has admitted to repeatedly making threads just as bait

[trail whale]

thats why were all here isnt it lmfao

[lone tinsel]

i could maybe understand that some other time but is making the high risk high reward class not able to take a defence ability THAT unheard of (for the record i dont agree with just straight up doing this but i do think fallen is a little too strong rn)

[mental tendon]

the arguments for the og thread were alr said like at the start of the thread

[trail whale]

yeah thats the problem is its based on theory not experience, he just saw "low hp class"' and "ehp boost" and thought holy crackers! this must be op!

[mental tendon]

fallen is fine rn 😭
if u play safe the mantles will help but if u play risky at like 10%hp then it'll only help against like stray chip dmg that wouldn't have killed anyways the risk v reward is finr

[fading grove]

I can rephrase what my stance is
mantles is a flawed node in its specifics itself, I can agree with that (doesn’t benefit paladin as much as, you get it, the ideas have been laid out over and over)

right now I feel there’s more than enough of a choice when it comes to taking mantles or not (6 points with 4 of them not being your choice)

so I would say this is more a mantle thing than a fallen thing, which also may change soon

[exotic lily]

The idea sounds awesome on paper but in practice not only does fallen never take mantles aside from melee, but also can't we both agree this post is packed with statements that scream "I have never played this archetype I have no fucking clue about anything in it" but also clear jealousy in the "is too good" part because a certain someone has no fucking clue how to play the archetype xd

[manic minnow]

foxxochan posting

[lone tinsel]

yeah idk what that situation was but iirc it was him trying to see if people just hated him or his opinions and made the same post as someone else and i believe he got more disliked than the other guy

regardless, if he did bait then yeah thats not good but a bunch of people are just saying each and every one of his takes is bait

[white surge]

Foxxo, I think you should read the nodes and see what they offer.

[uneven notch]

cry is free

[signal stone]

tbf there have been times i've seen it. Not recently but was a time it was slightly popular (i think early 2.0 which god that's ages ago) I get the logic though on the ability blocking..
Like rete said it's the glass cannon having access to tanking abilities is weird. But at the same time, outside of probably hyper specific builds it's just never seemed worth it.

[white surge]

We can deal a heck of a lot more damage before we reach that amount of hp because of... this fellow right here.

[trail whale]

besides melee what is using this? upperscream is too far away and burst fallen loses dps to weave a melee

[leaden grove]

also 2s cooldown

[white surge]

You deal more though

[trail whale]

one isnt close enough to consistsntly proc it, the other wants to be out of fallen too quickly for small buildups like 4 to matter

[white surge]

If you're fast enough you can a lot more damage anyway

[trail whale]

wdym

[white surge]

You get to 100 corrupted much faster

It's also a very nice way to charge up corrupted if you're waiting for things to spawn.

[leaden grove]

2s cooldown

getting to 100 corrupted would need 50 seconds

[white surge]

?

[ornate bloom]

thrrr is a major ID that makes it charge faster but I think it is trash for damage :Dd

[leaden grove]

getting 4 corrupted from a hit have 2 seconds cooldown

[white surge]

I know

[leaden grove]

which means getting to 100 takes 50 seconds

thats just too long

[white surge]

You are putting melee hits in between your upper bash cycles

[leaden grove]

oh yeah true

[lone tinsel]

with just that yeah but obviously you use it alongside other ways to get corrupted

[surreal portal]

this is certainly a thread!

"glass cannon with damage avoidance/nullification is bad"

https://tenor.com/view/riddler-paul-dano-new-rockstars-thumbnail-does-he-know-he-doesnt-know-gif-27552850

me when the playstyle that exists in god knows how many rpgs is suddenly bad because... 🤔

how are you going to try to argue that a 70% DR on 3 hits every 25 (twenty five) seconds is somehow enough to nullify the risk that comes from playing at <50% hp whenever you are actively in combat

[crude sleet]

glass cannon nullification would go hard

[trail whale]

you would have to have never played it......

[crude furnace]

From what I'm seeing people mostly said that damage in the endgame is too much for mantles to save you, and that by getting mantles you forgo stuff like axe kick and become more like fallen sustain and not burst fallen

[trail whale]

yeah mantle is only even usable on sustain fallen which omits alot of damage, it doesnt always save u, has bad uptime, and even on sustain fallen it does substantially liess

[obsidian orbit]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1036586382233194496/1301653969826873474/foxxo.gif

[ripe night]

The argument to be made here is to make versatility more viable with the other classes, not to make the ones that already are more restrictive

[ripe night]

Me when fallen tree has a self healing ability to nullify damage

Foxxo I'm sorry but this was a really bad take

[ripe night]

Mantle is also for a few hits with 25 second cool down. That's nowhere near enough to save you if you're getting destroyed. It's not as absurdly strong as you make it out to be

[foggy lion]

Tell foxxo i almost changed my idea on him before this thread

[signal stone]

i always saw mantle's biggest weakness being chip damage just destroys it.
Like that shield does not mean much if the weakest attacks make it easy as hell for stronger attacks to just hit.

[ripe night]

That too.

[haughty kernel]

Dont be, it's foxxo's post. It can either be good point or batshit insane.

[sage solstice]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/967200201989312644/1288820688437641246/attachment-1.gif?ex=6770860d&is=676f348d&hm=ff89961132a4070b59fe18068d62d3cd984205816075c3c1a5309c84154d12cf&

[obsidian orbit]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1036586382233194496/1301653969826873474/foxxo.gif

can u unblock me so I can likent this thread

[viscid burrow]

Ahhahahsha I love this gif

[haughty kernel]

The question is when will he learn

Or rather when will he stop rage bait

[foggy bluff]

Peak entertaining

[astral snow]

https://tenor.com/view/warframe-arthur-arthur-nightingale-warframe-1999-1999-gif-4632106320046100632

How about just rebalancing mantle in a way that is just less beneficial to glass cannon builds and more beneficial to paladin?

Sure, you block it and then what, mantle is still useless for paladin

[astral snow]

It has super long cooldown and you spend ability points that you could potentially spend on... more damage
And it's not 100% damage reduction and therefore hit strong enough (which is likely, especially at low hp) can kill you trough mantle

[sage solstice]

hire this man

[mild patrol]

inb4 ☝🏻🤓 erm suggestion go to forums

[astral snow]

I was denied

sadly

[sage solstice]

😭😭😭😭😭 they just wanna see paladins be kept down

[haughty kernel]

I mean... provoke with 5s cd happened

[astral snow]

which was abused by battle monk

[granite crag]

As someone who has been trying to make Fallen-Paladin synergy work to the point where I literally swapped Fallen and Battle Monk’s positions on the tree, this befuddles me

I’m kidding my version of Paladin is different

The shields kinda help tho

I mean you give good and reasonable points but judging from how unpopular this thread is I feel like I don’t know Fallen well enough to make a valid statement

[grizzled frigate]

I have played fallen both as meele and burst spell for a long time now, and let me share my opinion:

For spells, mostly fallen loses too much of potential if he decides to go for mantles, which wont pay off too much since your hp will constantly jump high-low (deal damage, heal, repeat). So yeah, you either wont take enough damage to justify the mantle (high hp) or take damage when you are about to leave corrupt on low hp, which can be helped with simply taking Brink of Madness (well, depends on the build) which is decently accessible if you just go for full fallen instead. TLDR: Fallen Burst doesnt care about Mantles

For meele (here, crafted Tierstack Alkatraz) the build requires you to stay on very low hp most of the time if you want to max out your damage (im talking about literally near-death amount of hp). Since you are prone to getting slapped, I personally find it necessary to keep mantles as
my primary "health" - really, they were so important that I had flashbacks from games that had hearts instead of health bar haha. When near-death, you want all the reductions possible, just so you wont get randomly sweeped even by weak monsters. TLDR: Fallen Tstack is unplayable without Mantles

Remember: Its just my humble opinion after hundreds of hours on fallen, playing both ways and enjoying Suffering as Meele the playstyle, so you are free to disagree with it.

[astral snow]

basically yeah

for spell fallen you actually need to sacrifice something to get the mantles

which usually might be better than mantles themselves

[haughty kernel]

No we dont talk about idol cspam

[gaunt anchor]

Mantles can surely be useful some spell burst fallens or maybe higher sustain variants like cumedge hero

But it’s not really broken and doesn’t break fallen’s identity

[crude furnace]

How are words like that even allowed

[lone tinsel]

m*ntle

[trail whale]

?

[lone tinsel]

i assume he was referring to cumedge

[crude furnace]

Fallen (derogatory)