Quad Bash should be a Paladin ability, not Fallen

[tame otter]

Fallen's whole identity is stronger Uppercuts, and even armor breaking uppers. Paladin's entire identity is Bash proccing Radiance, stronger bash, and cheaper bash.

If you made Flaming Uppercut a Fallen ability and Quad Bash paladin one (literally just swapping) I think it would fit the ability tree better, and Paladin would feel more consistent 👍

[golden vector]

You burnt the cheesecake but ended up making a basque anyways

[sour acorn]

"whole identity is stronger Uppercuts, and even armor breaking uppers" Yeah, because Massive Bash doesnt exist on Fallen's Tree, right?

Moving an ability from one side to another just wont change the fact that Paladin is underwhelming as it is, You will only nerf Fallen that way. What should be done is proper rework of the entire archetype..

Not to mention that Flaming Upper is mid at best as an ability.

Especially that its fire type, and fire mastery is on paladin's archetype aswell

[blazing pollen]

there is a good chance that stronger bash and ragnarokkr will be swapped in the future

[sour kiln]

Ehh fallen doesn't only focus uppers tho it's primarily upper dps with bash being a subdps
Also flaming upper is useless aside from building ssurge which is a paladin thing

[tame otter]

Yeah and boiling blood. Meanwhile Paladin has sacred surge that profs on Uppercut too. They are not mutually exclusive. But there's a LOT of bash nodes on paladin it just makes more sense for it to have the most important one for making it viable

[sour acorn]

Boiling blood as it is is an utility.

No one ever build damage on it, it applies slowness, since its scaling is so low and its fire type.

For all it is, its only taken because its necessary for Unc. Corruption.

Swapping it with Ragnarok or something else would be ablessing, but then you will get an ability that no one takes

[tame otter]

Yeah that's true, but Armor Breaker is way way way more integral to Fallen than Massive Bash imo. Massive bash just makes it so that you can have consistent bash DPS in the background while you nuke the enemy with upper and scream

[tame otter]

the Flying Kick in question

[sour kiln]

... scream? if anything scream is a monk and pala ability, anything but fallen lol

[cursive adder]

Permission number #4 **.sm utility disable ** is preventing this action.

[sour kiln]

upper is your dps bash is your subdps scream is your utility for going in and out of corrupt

[blazing pollen]

both fallen and paladin have bash skills

both fallen and paladin have uppercut skills

[tame otter]

Imo, in order it's
Upper - Scream - Bash (in terms of what ability is iconic to each archetype)

[blazing pollen]

both fallen and paladin have war scream skills

[sour acorn]

I like Flying Kick in surf builds, it basicly allows you to bump into enemy and never fall on the ground in Lootruns

Back to the topic, Taking Fallen's abilities and just swapping them for weak ones from Paladin's Tree will only ner Fallen, because Paladin will still be underwhelming.. Whats the point of it?

[blazing pollen]

paladin = fallen? 🤯

[sour kiln]

yea cuz no archetype should go like "this uses this spell. no other. only this. no other archetype uses this spell."

[sour acorn]

I would love to see the source of that information, since it sounds like actually weird idea.

Paladin already has Radiance

Now it also should get Ragna?

[sour kiln]

idk why you wasted your time making this post tbh we have a confirmed paladin rework which completely invalidates all arguments you proposed and i doubt any changes will happen before it

[tame otter]

Paladin gets SOME dps at present if you take Quad Bash + Thunderclap, but Quad Bash ends up spreading your points too thin because now you have to split off between Fallen + Battlemonk + Paladin to even make Paladin function as it was probably envisioned.

If quad bash, an important source of DPS for paladin, was more easily accessible, paladin wouldn't be fixed but I do believe it would be better

[tame otter]

Like completely reworked from the ground up?

[sour kiln]

probably not completely but largely

[tame otter]

Damn I hope so

[sour acorn]

Maybe we will live to see the day when paladin actually acts like paladin.

[tame otter]

I love tank archetype I wish it felt viable to play

[sour acorn]

It could be the best / most versitile Tank + Buffer archetype but so far we got a weird Tank combined with Take damage -> deal damage, which is useless since you prefer Fallen if you aim for damage

Like Imagine if sacred surge could be your buffing ability. Casting specific spell with Shift held would instead cast aoe buff of specific type, wouldnt that be a sight?

[tame otter]

I will say Paladin has deceptively higher DPS than you'd think against 2/4 of the raid bosses, since Sparkling Hope procs almost constantly and reju skin gives infinite smite on multi hits

[sour acorn]

There is no ability "Sparkling Skin", maybe you meant "Mythril Skin" or "Sparkling Hope" ?

[tame otter]

What would the buff even be? Like Radiance but on-command?

[tame otter]

Sparkling Hope***

[pallid comet]

It should be a Neutral Node not relying on archetypes, just as Double Bash.

[tame otter]

Fair. All the archetypes benefit from it

[pallid comet]

[sour acorn]

Simple table:
Spend 25% to activate:
Shift+Upper -> +25% WS in AOE
Shift+Warscream -> +20% Res (stacked with WS)
Shift+Bash -> +15% Dmg

It could work like that I suppose, but then sacred's gain should be scaled down so you wont be constantly casting buffs.

[blazing pollen]

renamed, but yes
just because it fits that archetype more as it being more "supportive"

[sour acorn]

Basicly placing Second Radiance in the same archetype, with longer but weaker effect - pointless.

[blazing pollen]

they stack really well

and they are 2 different effects

[tame otter]

Tbh yeah Ragna seems like a Paladin ability. Fallen buffs themselves not the whole team

[blazing pollen]

ragn is just damage buff and radiance buffs everything

[sour acorn]

It could simply become caster-exclusive then.

[blazing pollen]

like melee fallen is strong...

[tame otter]

Then you'd have duplicate Ragnarokkr nodes. Pointless

[blazing pollen]

only because alka exists it's usable

[sour acorn]

I meant changing current ragna ..

Not making a duplicate.

[tame otter]

Then everyone complains about nerf to team dynamic and whatnot

[sour acorn]

Yeah, because literally getting rid of Fallen's ability wont cause complains, right?

[tame otter]

Moving it to a more thematically consistent location I'm assuming is their plan

Making paladin more viable and more appreciated

I'm only speculating here in that part

[sour acorn]

So far I still want to know where does that information come from, that Ragna will be moved ✨

And about the post, since the archetype will be reworked in whole, I suppose the post is irrelevant I guess..

[tame otter]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

If someone could close the thread then since rework invalidates the conversation that would be appreciated

[sour acorn]

I hope the Paladin's tree will become focused on Buffing/Support and such (Maybe something that can improve others' survivability without relying on Guardian Major ID), but without trying to nerf other archetypes.

[finite dust]

us yapping in #984944802799972362 and a ct or 2 somewhat agreeing, still not the AT team but the idea got supposedly presented (am not sure if it went through or just went, nah)

then also went into early times of #1265241987771006976 BEFORE it got renamed like that

now looking up message history in threads are just not for the human to do so uh...finding that would be a pain

[stone shuttle]

bad arguements but yea i agree

[gaunt fable]

paladin rework coming soon™️ so what is this for

[supple roost]

honestly, is this satire?

[wooden rune]

Fallen’s whole identity is stronger Uppercuts
What
Are all the Bash-related upgrades on the Fallen path just invisible to you

Maybe I’m hallucinating and Fallen doesn’t actually have that many Bash abilities

[tame otter]

Fallen has nice bash upgrades for damage, but they're like, passive DPS.
Bigger AOE and "Slow Enemy" nodes are pretty much all it gets. And ofc Corruption meter just makes every attack stronger so that doesn't really count. But it doesn't make Bash a signature for Fallen imo, it just makes it more usable/consistent as a utility/passive DPS because bigger hitbox. You do bash once, let it run, and then do uppercut or most of the time scream 3x for DPS

[wooden rune]

Does Fallen have any uppercut nodes?

[tame otter]

Paladin has Radiance, which is pretty integral to its identity, and Smite gets 4x activation on quad bash, which is a HUGE deal for Paladin, on top of Paladin getting Stronger Bash + Cheaper bash

[tame otter]

Fireworks + Comet + Armor Breaker make Uppercut a pretty devastating attack

Oh and "Stronger Uppercut"

The one that makes it like +10 mana to cast or something

[wooden rune]

I thought Fireworks and Comet were like neutral nodes
They’re near the top right

[tame otter]

Yeah, and no they aren't. They're fallen nodes, you can check

From an ability tree point of view, I don't think it's unfair to say that Fallen's identity revolves more around Uppercut being iconic, and Paladin revolves around Bash being more iconic @wooden rune

[wooden rune]

Oh
I was always under the impression that Bash was Fallen’s thing

Strange but I guess it makes sense

[tame otter]

It currently does kinda feel that way from a damage perspective yeah, which kinda conflicts with each others identities imo. That's why I suggested the change

[dusk helm]

if you base entire archetypes around a single ability, you are wrong

paladin uses spells to support and fallen for damage

it's like saying remove corrupted from war scream because it already gives paladin shields

[tame otter]

Obviously every archetype uses all their spells, but thematically each one is iconic to something

Rift Walker teleport/ice snake
Lightbender heal
Arcanist meteor

They all use their spells, but you mentally associate a symbol with each

[finite dust]

you mean rift meteor lightbender meteor arcanist meteor

as for fallen it legit has the same amount of bash nodes as uppers so like please

[wooden rune]

^

But yeah I always thought that Bash was thematic to Fallen and Warscream thematic to Paladin

Mostly because Warscream is like the “buffing” spell and all that

And that it’s the central one for Mantle

Also happened when I was trying to change Corrupted’s trigger to something else for my fanmade Paladin rework

Ended up settling for Shift + Bash

[tame otter]

For damage sources I mean, but also yeah you make a good point in Warscream + Mantle

Fallen's nodes for upper are more impactful than it's Bash nodes, Paladin gets quadruple Smite with quad bash, and Battlemonk gets immediate maximum Discombobulate with war scream

[tame otter]

I do think Shift+Bash would be a good manual trigger for Paladin

Shift triggers are generally disliked because mobility is important in difficult fights, but Paladin does not need mobility nearly as much

[wooden rune]

Yeah but bash for shields doesn’t really make sense though

[tame otter]

That's valid

[heavy frost]

babe we have foxxo at home

[granite acorn]

what the fuck

[thorn ferry]

nah. peoples main complaint about foxxo is that he doesn’t engage in respectful discourse and refuses to see logical points. thief continues to be courteous and respectful despite a majority of his threads being unpopular. you can’t just take anyone you disagree with and call them “budget foxxo”, because that’s not why people don’t like foxxo

[blazing pollen]

https://tenor.com/view/warframe-arthur-arthur-nightingale-warframe-1999-1999-gif-4632106320046100632

being downvoted to hell doesn't mean being like foxxo

and he CAN argue his point of view by more than yap

[tame otter]

@blazing pollen @thorn ferry @heavy frost

Am I missing some context here? I thought everyone memed on Foxxo because of his lightbender hate post and how over exaggerative he was about "lightbenders are killing the game". Like yeah, almost everyone agrees lightbender could use a small DPS nerf, but in his post it felt like he wanted it to be as good of an archetype as Paladin is right now. Genuine question, was it just from that post, or is there something else I'm missing?

[thorn ferry]

as the local foxxo defender i’ll take this one

it’s not that people don’t like him because of one post he made. it’s a general attitude across posts and in discourse. he struggles to stay on track in many conversations, to the point where he will derail completely unrelated conversations to be talking about lightbender or hero. people also don’t like his argument style, saying that he’s frequently disrespectful to the people against whom he’s arguing.
he has good takes a lot of the time but argues them in an annoying way, apparently
and also it’s like the norm to bully him now which yay i love normalizing bullying !

[blazing pollen]

Eh, lb is fine rn
Lightbender hate but also he has some really bad takes to the point of people calling it rage bait
Like his grounded acrobat thing 💀

[heavy frost]

i only dislike him because of his terrible takes

[tame otter]

Grounded Acrobat...? Please tell me you're joking

[blazing pollen]

This post is locked now

But yes, that happened

[tame otter]

I don't like the general vibe of bullying people, but ty it's good to at least know the context behind "we have Foxxo at home" and similar memes

[blazing pollen]

I wish I was joking

[sour kiln]

I'm down for meming on foxxo when it's funny

Yeah, admittedly, it doesn't bother me that much if that hurts him, but idt that many people really go out of their way to hate foxxo specifically

At times he says smth good and I won't disagree with it just bcz it's foxxo but I also won't hesitate to make fun of him elsewhere in fitting context

And I feel that most of the ppl share the same attitude

There is maybe a handful of people who actually hate him but that's just wasting your nerves on nothing

[tame otter]

There's no way people hate in a Minecraft game

[thorn ferry]

alas, when people have naught but vitriol to subside on, they release it at the first convenient target

yeah a couplea people hate him