provoke making every raid boss crippled like tcc

[unkempt hamlet]

I can't even take it for one more second. Why must Paladin be this bad. I try use it in raids, Fallen and Bmonk are better. I try use it for lrs, Fallen and Bmonk are more effective. I try use it for Dungeons, Fallen and Bmonk outclass it. Why must Paladin suffer this badly.

I try find a single use outside of wars for Paladin, theres nothing. Ninety percent of all the abilities are absolutely useless. Its hopeless, theres nothing I can ever do. Paladin has no use, I try find one but theres just nothing. Everything Paladin ever can do and will do will be outclassed by healers.

Shield bash is useless. Mantles do nothing. Rejuvenating skin has such a small effect. Sacred Surge goes away in 1s. Second chance is horrible. Martyr has and will never serve any purpose in this game. Cleansing Breeze is useless. The only thing thats good is Radiance but Bmonks always take it. The one reason to play Paladin is provoke but thats your only reason to exist

Why must Paladin suffer this much. It has done nothing wrong. All it has done is existed. While all the other Archetypes are being used and played with, Paladin is left there to die and rot. Its advertised as a support Archetype but even Fallen has more support. Its advertised as a Tank archetype but Lightbenders are more tanky.

There is nothing, but the endless void of despair for Paladin to endlessly rot in. The only thing that it receives is the occasional buff to a ability thats already useless

[jade lance]

having a tank made the games i played much more consistant, they were slower but nobody died, with 4 dps you have the risk of people dying still and again, you need to be building walkspeed if you dont have a tank which heavily guts your dps

[next thorn]

Just dont skill issue, easy d(^^

[unkempt hamlet]

"heavily"

[cunning shell]

lol

so called epoch players hearing they need to gut their DPS for their build to work in tna (archer gets free speed and 75% frenzy ws)

or how about the 2 nodes that give 20% ws each in the other useful trees

[jade lance]

4 dps is and should be optimal for fast clears but the whole point of tank rn is to give regularity

[cunning shell]

you're playing a tank role to be at best as useful to the team as 4 DPS

[jade lance]

wait until blud finds out epoch isnt evne close to being the best for damage

[cunning shell]

yea it isnt

but i rather 4 epochs than 1 guardian + 3 spellshades

[wet scaffold]

i don't think ive seen a spellshade in like 10 runs

[jade lance]

the main thing i was referencing was bpact tcrack we had like 2 and they swapped off deli + ws ring cause they didnt need to kite anymore and were hitting like 5mil more

[cunning shell]

well hes talking about optimal DPS

spellshade is probably the highest DPS without bug abusing

[unkempt hamlet]

fallen

[jade lance]

i think hadal summoner might be lowk with like full crafted full glass

but greg is kinda an outlier cause watched makes burst much more effective than sustained so long as youi have enough of it

[cunning shell]

like even then you understand what you're referencing to doesnt even apply to most players raiding?

[jade lance]

totally but most players raiding also arent playing mechanically perfectly

[cunning shell]

you dont play mechanically perfectly with 4 dps

[jade lance]

i think you lost the plot

[unkempt hamlet]

wynncraft elitist lost in the sauce rn

[jade lance]

i said tank makes clears easier and more consistant and rewards team comp coordination

[cunning shell]

but it doesn't make it easier than having someone kill the boss faster

[jade lance]

other guy said nuh uh just be good and run 4 dps

i said yeah thats gonna be better if u play perfect but not everyone can

then u started doing whatever youre doing

[cunning shell]

you're under the assumption you need to play perfectly as 4 dps which is just not true

[jade lance]

if youre playing a good dps you will get 1 shot

[unkempt hamlet]

boss dies in 1 min you dont need to worry about mechs pretty much :P

[cunning shell]

ok please link me a good dps build

[sharp condor]

The way tank ends up supporting is rather trivializing though

[unkempt hamlet]

private, crafted

[cunning shell]

that also apparently gets one shot

LOL ok man 💀

[unkempt hamlet]

wynncraft #1 gatekeeping community

[jade lance]

fallen tcrack epoch fatal etw etc i can send if you need me to but you get the picture surely

i play all of these and seedlets or charge will kill you if you make a mistake

[wet scaffold]

i mean i guess anything below 15k ehp is a one shot in a guild raid

makes sense

[cunning shell]

its crazy to justify the existence of provoke you need to go as far as crafteds hyper glass

[jade lance]

that is what people use for fast runs yeah...

[placid bough]

The entire Paladin Archetype being categorized based on 1 singular node is kinda crazy tbh

[cunning shell]

surely a class shouldnt be locked into 1 use case

[unkempt hamlet]

I mean it's the only node that has a USE lmao

[jade lance]

would be nice if it could also have support specs but for now tanking is cool

[placid bough]

It just shows how horrible Paladin truly is

[unkempt hamlet]

REAL

[sharp condor]

I mean hard aggro control should just not exist or be crazy limited

[karmic gorge]

aye
it doesn’t have to be provoke
redirect (ex: guardian as a node) or gimmicks that actually do stuff (new sacred surge, mantle pass, leadership, second chance reviving others) would be more interesting and not break bosses entirely

[cunning shell]

remove provoke and give paladin dmg or ways to support doing more dmg

100% uptime CC is dumb

[unkempt hamlet]

aggro control is like a defining feature of a tank tho

[karmic gorge]

I am not saying these all need to be added it’s just atm paladin doesn’t have its interesting (potential) abilities added yet

[next thorn]

I mean pala has radiance but b monk can take that easy

[wet scaffold]

yeah but like, they're not really good enough to justify it

[jade lance]

tanks taking aggro is good, bosses being shut off because theyre focused on something else is bad, adding dtuff like orphion charge watched skulls and seedlets to keep the other 3 players more pressured is good

[wet scaffold]

revival actually might not be a bad idea on second thought

[karmic gorge]

provoke doesn’t need to exist, paladin could be a buff support/tank with redirects and it would still be good is what I’m saying

as in its original concept

[cunning shell]

bro please just give the class self-sufficiency

it does not make sense to make 1 archetype out of 12 the only class that cant exist without others

[wet scaffold]

actually the real fix is to remove riftwalker and allow paladin to apply 30 winded

[unkempt hamlet]

without aggro control you aren't really a tank, just like a budget lb

[jade lance]

why do you want everythinb to be self sufficient when all endgame content outside lrs is team based....

[cunning shell]

because frankly it sucks having to play teambased content?

[wet scaffold]

but isn't that the point of a raid

[cunning shell]

yea pretty much

[unkempt hamlet]

#1312523253830385735 message

[karmic gorge]

I guess what I’m saying is I agree with FrozenEarth
provoke shouldn’t last nearly as long as it does (when it works)

[unkempt hamlet]

bro is guilty

[cunning shell]

not really party finder is a legit awful experience pretty much because of team play being required

[karmic gorge]

if it had its team support abilities then it won’t need to have provoke carry it (which, hybrids can take, another thing)

[cunning shell]

10% to play 3/4 because someone decided to show up full tank

[karmic gorge]

so I guess that’s just a for now and wait for later kind of thing
it’s probably going to be changed eventually

[unkempt hamlet]

My opinion is that provoke simply needs to something that's more active, here was my suggestion on how to fix it #1312523253830385735 message

[jade lance]

im so confised so now provoke is useless?

arent people saying its like the literal devil

[unkempt hamlet]

in my suggestion, if too much damage was done to the boss provoke would break, meaning if you do too much burst aggro gets broken and everyones in trouble again until the pala can cast it again

[cunning shell]

no wtf

[wet scaffold]

people being rude and mean and dismissive to new players who want to learn
new players can't get into the endgame or have resources to learn because every guide is gatekept or outdated
wynncraft's gatekeeping score goes up
profit

[karmic gorge]

I understand that would gate provoke to player skill but it doesn’t change how it essentially can “break boss ai” from it being held in place for long periods of time

[deft pike]

because that’s the dev’s like whole design philosophy. not all players are endgame nor is all content made to be team content. every archetype should be able to complete all content (which they can right now)

[sharp condor]

That sounds pretty nice, damage done breaking a provoke

[karmic gorge]

that’s definitely a good idea

[unkempt hamlet]

PUT ME ON CT

[karmic gorge]

lol

[unkempt hamlet]

I will fix paladin 🙏

[jade lance]

2/3 warrior archetypes suck pre ebdgame youre really not proving anything with that

[cunning shell]

my point is its too hit/miss

[karmic gorge]

it’s kind of how provoke used to work before it broke
high enough dps just broke it for some reason and whoever was next to the boss disintegrated

[unkempt hamlet]

1/3..... bmonk and fallen are good for lr and or raids

[jade lance]

dude thats literally why it didnt work cause aggro is based off hits done so people doing their job broke aggro this is silly

[cunning shell]

i mean yea class scaling with level is a whole another can of worms

[karmic gorge]

I mean
did you submit an application and had it go through?

[unkempt hamlet]

no

they aren't taking me

[jade lance]

fallen is the only thing to use when leveling lol lrs and raids are endgame

[lethal delta]

Can't understand why we have 24 dislikes.
Did you really enjoy hitting training dummies?

[cunning shell]

i think i rather have this temp solution while they rework it in the background

[sharp condor]

Better than what we have now lol

[placid bough]

Its mostly Paladin mains who want a purpose to exist

[unkempt hamlet]

I think you're misunderstanding my suggestion. Stacks of this "provoke" would decay based on a % damage done or smthn to the boss, as long as it has stacks provoke would work. People complain that having 100% uptime is the problem, my suggestion is that if too much damage is done, then the provoke breaks

[lethal delta]

Then maybe we whould place Provoke to the end of Paladin's Tree????

[sharp condor]

Or just people who think that without this, paladin will be useless

[unkempt hamlet]

A good paladin would be able to keep 100% uptime given people don't burst the boss down in 10 seconds.

[deft pike]

the thing is that it will be useless without it lol

[jade lance]

this is literally what selvut was talking about where people want something then xhange their mind the millisecond its done 💀

[woeful coyote]

this has been the most divisive thread i have seen which im not sure to say if its a good or bad thing lol

[jade lance]

"fix provoke" "nvm please bug it again"

[cunning shell]

💀 mfw community has differing opinions

[sharp condor]

"people"

[placid bough]

People would still complain

[deft pike]

fixing provoke = good
160% uptime, too easy to get for bmonk = problematic

you can believe both of these things

[unkempt hamlet]

Paladin ability that works
less than a day later thread opens demanding nerf
One must imagine paladin mains happy

[woeful coyote]

well the like to dislike ratio its either all the way to one of them

[jade lance]

he literally said he wanted it to go back to being broken there is not thid level of nuance to that sorry

halving the uptime is fine

[cunning shell]

i rather have this for 1-2 years while they figure out how to fix paladin yea, dont change it right now

[manic current]

does the same apply to luring or just provoke

[woeful coyote]

i am a paladin main so i am biased to agree since it gives paladin a shred of releveancy right now

[karmic gorge]

aye, they can change provoke afterwards

[deft pike]

luring is coded completely differently iirc

[manic current]

gotcha

[woeful coyote]

provoke does need fixing but i trust the paladin cooking will be successful and it will have its idenitity reborn (hopefully not just full team buff applier support since we have like other archetypes for that)
its not exactly "fun" per say to tank damage as a sponge but more just the philosophy of being that kind of "support" (keeping teammates safer, basically what guardian is) if that makes sense at all

those are my 2 cents i go back to talking to the new npc they are quite neat

[viscid flame]

Then hunted Mode will turn into Paladin Mode (more than currently)

[next thorn]

Youd need a non pfinder party to properly prepare for a tank

[unkempt hamlet]

but it makes pfinder easier, considering the tank can compensate for their teams ability to not dodge attacks

[deft pike]

no because people will still bring glass or dps whether or not they know a tank is there

makes it more consistent, even more so than like an abso aco for example

[woeful coyote]

elaberate a bit i also play hunted a lot lmao

[cunning shell]

right now hunted is just bpact + second chance

[unkempt hamlet]

paladin is really good in pvp

[cunning shell]

u can escape pmuch anyone

[woeful coyote]

for proffers yeah
hunter pvp is diff even if its at the end of the day who doesnt have agi proc loses

[woeful coyote]

not anyone but it makes you live in a stupid way :(

[viscid flame]

Considering how shit pfinder is, you'll eventually be there alone bc your teammates died to
Watched
Swing attack
Sun or crystals or light attacks
Idk for notg but they will die

[woeful coyote]

:)

[next thorn]

and then die to time out lmao

[woeful coyote]

i wonder who helped with that

[unkempt hamlet]

hyper tanks can kill bosses on their own, except maybe NoL with crystals, but it takes soooo long. Pala often times is assurance more than anything

[viscid flame]

They can't kill shit

[next thorn]

Ive seen an abso get outhealed by tcc

[viscid flame]

If you mean truly hyertank

[next thorn]

Idk how thats even possible

[cunning shell]

i experienced it today

you can do 23mill/43 of tcc's boss health but can have a useless abso in ur team that drags it out to 15 mins

[unkempt hamlet]

ehhh I was running a "hypertank" apoc build a while ago that could full tank pretty much anything and could kill notg or nol solo (given nol has no crystals left)

[viscid flame]

Idk I'm just tired of finding so many paladins in hunted

Much rather fight a shaman spamming blood connection forever

[woeful coyote]

like proffer paladins or hunters using pmonk
big difference between both

[unkempt hamlet]

also saw a guardian kill greg solo from like 20mil or so

just takes FOREVER

[woeful coyote]

warriors just too strong for most hunted situations so it gets boring yeah
thats why i have other classes like hunter laby or anti air mage for acros

[viscid flame]

pmonk mostly

I don't really bother with proffers

[woeful coyote]

yeah its funny how meta used to be fmonk one shotting before ppl finally realized pmonk is just better (totally not because of me wink wink )

[unkempt hamlet]

I need a players killed apoc NOW

[viscid flame]

It was so good backstabbing players mining in the void

[woeful coyote]

i love violence

[woeful coyote]

cooking

[viscid flame]

every time I see someone in hunted mode

[unkempt hamlet]

part of me wishes wynn had a dedicated HC server that has perma-hunted

[viscid flame]

It's like flirting but more intense

[woeful coyote]

ahahaha

[woeful coyote]

i wouldnt mind but thats also just nether pvp and there was a reason itw as removed

[unkempt hamlet]

fair :(

[jade lance]

im actually curious why it was removed i never knew, thought it just got too small that it wasnt worth running the servers anymore

[woeful coyote]

sorta of no one just used it so itwas removed

[sage fossil]

there would be like 3 endgame players

if it wasn’t hc but u could play hc on it itd probably be at least semi active i bet

[short mirage]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/827034683422277642/1305233888079253564/caption.gif?ex=674ca748&is=674b55c8&hm=2c0a7ba07151416b639e9c64cc63c877c7509692c73e82202a513f0a1111d266& but greg

[unkempt hamlet]

I just like the idea of it being similar to HC WoW

or runescape

[vital laurel]

guardian enjoyers are gonna lose their job again

[kindred lily]

Me when pfinder

Okay holy shit this thread is so big I cant read it all. Anyway heres my take

The issue with tanking in wynn is it essentially wants to ignore the bosses mechanics and demands (which it tries to make you follow by the punishment of damage), for your own interactions of keeping your health up and builds. So I'd suggest a tanking mechanic that instead makes you interact with the boss's mechanics differently to tank.

A random idea I had, idk if its good, is some sort of directional shield.
A directional shield forces the player to still respond accordingly to each of the bosses moves, and so the bosses mechanics still matter despite the tank not needing to do what everyone else does. Main issue is likely walls, since then the boss will struggle to get behind you. Perhaps have the shield be a block or two in front of you so you'll need to resposition? Not sure, but that's sorta the core idea. Allow for a different way of responding to bosses attacks.

[unkempt hamlet]

Charge attacks + AoE + ratio

[kindred lily]

Whats wrong with charge attacks

And aoe could just have the direction you need to block in be the center of the aoe/the source of it

again it's more just a concept to portray the idea, idk how well it would function

[unkempt hamlet]

Of course it's a good idea but would probably be a nightmare to implement and even then I don't see it being all that good

Although a shield that deletes projectiles could be really strong

[wooden osprey]

What bullshit did I just read. I've never heard the statement that "Paladin makes bosses boring" or something like this. And, "Well designed bosses"!? Are we really playing the same game? All bosses without exception are frankly boring, no matter if the hypertank paladin taking aggro or some epoch user with a brick on the "S" button kiting the boss along the edge of the arena.

[unkempt hamlet]

This guy is so real

[distant summit]

fun is subjective and im sorry that you cant find joy in the bosses in this game, but i cant help but disagree so much that bosses are just “hold S and never get hit” like you described

[unkempt hamlet]

I mean when the boss is in it's neutral phase (not doing a mechanic like black hole or watched) it pretty much is

[distant summit]

i still heavily disagree. a lot of attacks are way more nuanced than that, at least with how i play

[unkempt hamlet]

TCC is pretty unique though, cool fight

[distant summit]

yes, it is optimal to go away from the boss instead of towards it in order to kite, but that doesn’t make holding S the only way to not take damage

nor does it negate taking damage at all

[unkempt hamlet]

Its effective enough that it's what most people do

[distant summit]

i mean yeah, but it’s way more dynamic than just holding one button

[unkempt hamlet]

Sprinkle a little a and d in there

[hexed drift]

ah yes, playing a braindead class and playing it against a raid boss deems the boss boring and easy because of the playstyle you play

[unkempt hamlet]

🤷

[distant summit]

ok ill be fr. how can you say what kiting even is when all you do is face tank the boss

[unkempt hamlet]

I watch people do it. Just because it's not the way I play the game doesn't mean I can't understand it

[unkempt sonnet]

if bosses were rlly that boring i would just not be playing wynn lol (why i dont play tcc)

thats all i have to say

[distant summit]

if you say so, i just dont think the way you’re describing kiting does it justice at all

[hexed drift]

if you’re gonna claim that bosses are boring yet follow up mentioning one of the most braindead playstyles after that in the entire game, then don’t speak

[unkempt hamlet]

So much elitism he's glowing

#1312523253830385735 message

[hexed drift]

it’s not elitism if you’re saying a boss is boring just because you’re playing a boring playstyle with little to no interaction

[keen obsidian]

damn i didnt realize there were so many paladin mains in wynnmain looks like a lot of people can't beat bosses without a side of cheese

[unkempt hamlet]

https://tenor.com/view/rage-bait-or-fact-call-it-jjba-gif-4356782155168095918

[wooden osprey]

"braindead class" it's "all except of ass-ass-in"? Wake up boy, all classes is braindead

[distant summit]

❓

[hexed frost]

??

[hexed drift]

🤣

[distant summit]

that is not only incredibly wrong but also just, what?

[hexed frost]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1025425782836834384/1309375364551671840/togif.gif

[wooden osprey]

You're really gonna say that wynncraft have a difficult classes?

[distant summit]

absolutely

[hexed frost]

yeah fallen

[hexed drift]

you’re not worth arguing with if you barely know how every archetype is played

[distant summit]

fallen, summoner given the latest patch, acrobat, arcanist, acolyte (on some builds, some can be easier) all have super in-depth gameplay

[hexed frost]

shade!!

[distant summit]

shade too yep

[wooden osprey]

I talk about classes overoll, not about archetypes, sorry for misunderstanding.

[unkempt hamlet]

? OK now I'm lost

[wooden osprey]

I mean, why should you play fallen if you can just take bmonk and enjoy the game?

[distant summit]

because i enjoy fallen?

[hexed frost]

I would argue every shaman playsytle takes skill except mortar

[unkempt sonnet]

i rlly dont understand the notion of “this game is already super boring so this really powerful interaction that makes the game even more boring is justifiable”

[hexed frost]

maybe abso

[distant summit]

true

[unkempt hamlet]

Wait chat can we go back to this

[wooden osprey]

Abso is braindead, sorry but i can confirm this

[hexed frost]

yeah fair

[keen obsidian]

its fun is crazy

[unkempt hamlet]

"Because what you find fun conflicts with what I find fun you can't have fun"

[wraith cobalt]

potato

[unkempt hamlet]

My fun over EVERYTHING ELSE

[unkempt sonnet]

even then its making the game significantly less fun for 3 other ppl, not saying that its the only thing that does this btw

[distant summit]

how does that correlate to pressing S being the solution to any boss in the game

or is that the fun is subjective part

[unkempt hamlet]

Fun is subjective part

Again going back to this #1312523253830385735 message

[hexed frost]

idk personally I have considerably less fun when there's a paladin on my team vs when there isnt

[distant summit]

^

[unkempt sonnet]

like i dont have a problem with u having fun as a tank but its not just you thats affected

[distant summit]

^

[unkempt hamlet]

Ok, should we just kill all paladins, just delete it because you don't like it

[distant summit]

literally not the point

[hexed drift]

how do you keep going over the points we make

[unkempt hamlet]

Pretty much what's being said

[hexed frost]

im not saying that im saying that they should design the class to not take away the fun of othets

[distant summit]

the point is that people find the class unfun to play with, so it can be changed to not only be intuitive for people playing the class, but also for people playing with it on the team

[hexed drift]

it’s actually kinda funny

[keen obsidian]

average straw man argument technique

[unkempt sonnet]

no, but provoke being as it is is just not a great way to make paladin usable because it completely wipes the gameplay for party members

[wooden osprey]

So... Do you like catching a boss who in turn catching a player with the pressed "S" button?

[unkempt sonnet]

if paladin were made good in other ways that would be great

[unkempt hamlet]

The thread is about provoke

[hexed drift]

downfall of any community starts with these guys

[hexed frost]

I think that's enough #1019649786799996980 for today goodbye

[unkempt sonnet]

bye have a good day

[distant summit]

why do you keep dumbing down kiting to this ☹️

[keen obsidian]

kiting and dodging is holding the s key because spells dont exist bro he’s playing paladin and standing still

[unkempt hamlet]

What would you suggest then

[wooden osprey]

All we've come to is that fun is an objective thing. You don't like it when the boss stands because of provoke, I don't like running after the boss, what's next?

[distant summit]

not my decision to make, i dont make anything in this game

[unkempt hamlet]

Because you ask a lot yet provide so little

[distant summit]

Because I DONT MAKE ANYTHING IN THE GAME

i dont provide anything because its not my job to!

[hexed drift]

i just wanted to make provoke not be 100% uptime and not make bosses stationary and non-interactive but community feedback dwellers always make posts like these really hard to make points across

[distant summit]

if i was a CT member who focussed on ability trees i’d be giving ideas left right and centre, but i am not

[keen obsidian]

go on…

[unkempt hamlet]

Did my message just get deleted

[distant summit]

filtered

[unkempt hamlet]

Bro 😭

[unkempt sonnet]

the point of this thread is just feedback that provoke isnt healthy its not to suggest other ways to improve paladin D:

[hexed drift]

he’s pulling out the slurs

[unkempt hamlet]

???

[wooden osprey]

and provoke is get useless again, "btw lure still in the game"

[unkempt hamlet]

The narrative is crazy, I said the word "b!tch" and it got filtered

[hexed drift]

lure ≠ provoke
they are coded differently

[keen obsidian]

making provoke useless is a better solution than keeping it like this

[unkempt hamlet]

Ok that's fucking crazy to me

[cunning shell]

nah no way

[hexed frost]

THE CLASS LURE IS ON IS SUPPOSED TO GO INTO VANISH WDYM

[wraith cobalt]

me when people are arguing about provoke but im just a chill guy

[cunning shell]

keep provoke as is until paladin rework drops

[distant summit]

paladin needs a really big rework before provoke can be allowed to be worse than it is now

[unkempt hamlet]

🏅

[cunning shell]

paladin is really fking ass

[wooden osprey]

^

[hexed frost]

🐐

[unkempt hamlet]

^

[distant summit]

the only thing i’d change about provoke is maybe its uptime, and definitely its spot on the tree to be lower down so that these stupid flying builds cant get it anymore

[cunning shell]

ur basically playing on paladin with the weapon choices u do

[unkempt sonnet]

what if i provoke you 🤯

[hexed frost]

as in keep it bad or keep it good?

[unkempt hamlet]

I think that's probably what's gonna happen considering there are more down votes on this post than up votes

[cunning shell]

if provoke is the only thing useful, IMO it should be kept until another solution is available

[distant summit]

im ngl upvotes and downvotes do very little to impact the outcome of posts

[unkempt hamlet]

Agreed

[cunning shell]

i agree in its current state its problematic/braindead

[unkempt hamlet]

Also agreed

[cunning shell]

but I also don't like making an archetype useless for 9 months while CT figure something out

[distant summit]

acrobat

[unkempt hamlet]

For as long as it's been out wdym 💀

[hexed drift]

some ct/a dev already disagree with provoke being 100% uptime, likes and dislikes do not matter

[cunning shell]

whatever bro CT are slow and getting dev time is even slower

[frank relic]

gg

[distant summit]

it’s literally as fast as it’s even been dawg

updates have never released so quickly

[cunning shell]

bmonk being bugged for month LOL

[hexed frost]

kinda agree but then again the alternative is letting every boss keep being ultra shreddable

[hexed drift]

how is bmonk bugged

[distant summit]

that doesnt mean updates dont exist

[cunning shell]

brother ur talking like it isnt already

[unkempt hamlet]

Discombob was bugged for a while after it was "reworked"

[hexed frost]

fair

[unkempt sonnet]

it will last as long as trapstack did

[hexed drift]

you can’t just rush something like that if they don’t know the solution to it yet

[keen obsidian]

criticising peoples volunteer jobs when you have not experienced the work or seen that they are busy: (dev is paid but also part time)

[hexed drift]

they have multiple different things to worry about in this server

[cunning shell]

yea pretty much whats the issue with that

bmonk change was entirely self inflicted but thread is derailing

[woeful spire]

provoke def needs to get its uptime nuked a bit esp since 'flying' trees only really req idol (any other spear with -2nd gear works fine too and flying kick, so they will probably be able to pick it up p easily no?
sure you wont be able to get armour breaker but thats not a huge compromise for having 160% uptime provoke
https://hppeng-wynn.github.io/builder?v=10#9_2SG2SH2SI2SJ2SK2SL2SM2SN0Qf00002I00001g000000z0z0+0+0+0+0-1Tj7sN-XzC5

obv would prefer paladin jut got its rework but temporarily doing both of those options is prob fine imo

[distant summit]

i didnt expect to see a box in the ability tree lol, but yeah i agree

[woeful spire]

box jumpscare

its def a scuffed tree i jsut made it quickly

[hexed drift]

don’t take second chance as pala because it’s useless

[woeful spire]

idk why i took stronger bash acutally(wtever man)

[woeful spire]

provoke is probably ugnna be under second chance if it was to be temporarily moved

[unkempt hamlet]

I think if it swapped places with mythril skin and made to have like 5 pala reqs it would be fine

[woeful spire]

idt both of the 5% base def nodes should be so close to each other and accessible to all archetypes

[unkempt hamlet]

Again I'm just gonna shill my own suggestion because I believe it's the best proposed solution for all parties involved right now #1312523253830385735 message

[woeful spire]

i was thinking of it replacing cheaper upper 2

[unkempt hamlet]

That works too, I like that

[distant summit]

there's also space for it to be connected to just Rejuvinating Skin

[unkempt hamlet]

Also true

[hexed drift]

even then, it doesn’t really fix how provoke is 100% uptime

[woeful spire]

after thinking abt it this would prob be a better idea for the actual pala rework where ssurge is more of a resource u have to manage(assuming im rememebrign the leasdership rework corrctly)

[distant summit]

that can be something that can be fixed at a later point tbh

[woeful spire]

yeah both changes should happen as a temp patch bfore pala rework

[unkempt hamlet]

Sorry my suggestion doesn't really do my idea justice. In this case if the boss is bursted down too fast the aggro will break and uptime won't be 100%

[hexed drift]

i see more hypertanks than flying provoke users rn

[distant summit]

develop paladin to be more of an actual class rather than trying to be damage and tanking at the same time

[woeful spire]

see thats just
needlessly complex lol

[hexed drift]

i was referring to the different places of provoke suggestions

[unkempt hamlet]

True

[hexed drift]

like yeah it’s a good idea, but i haven’t come across a flying provoker yet, i’ve came across like 5 hypertanks today alone

[woeful spire]

i would just remove the cd and make it cost more ss if used a lot repeatedly

[unkempt hamlet]

I think it wouldn't be that complex

[woeful spire]

back to 2.0 release wall strats fr

[unkempt hamlet]

Much less so than some other suggestions lol

[hexed drift]

wallers…

what a time of being back and forth with wallers

[woeful spire]

i think jut having it cost ss is fine, making the boss randomly break aggro will just be weird
like u could have the dmg required to break aggro as a status effect but that would jut look jank

[earnest bridge]

paladin fans are used to doing nothing and contributing nothing and now they are able to do nothing and contribute something. they are experiencing great euphoria

[unkempt hamlet]

Wouldn't be random, you can see stacks of the debuff above the bosses head

[woeful spire]

like u see 3m dmg as a status effect when people do that dmg in like 3 seconds

[lethal delta]

HI ATML 😍

[distant summit]

tbh

[earnest bridge]

goat

[woeful spire]

me when the cata trickobat begs me to wall and then instantly dies

[unkempt hamlet]

Yea in which case the aggro wouldn't be 100% uptime

[lethal delta]

BRO THIS CANNOT BE REAL

[unkempt hamlet]

?

[hexed drift]

arguments in 2.1 are equivalent to 2.0 walling and if 7 jh was better than 4

[woeful spire]

this si so real

[hexed drift]

(6 was actually better)

[distant summit]

lol

[hexed drift]

people make claims and i put in the time and effort to debunk and find out what the actual efficient jh was

[unkempt hamlet]

Real

[hexed frost]

real....

[unkempt hamlet]

Paladin sisyphus

https://tenor.com/view/sisyphus-christmas-gif-6411344967599693273

[woeful spire]

the aggro would not last very long in most competent partys bc of big dps and just act the same as having low cd unless you dont do dmg to the boss intentionally/have teamates with negative dps

the ' dmg taken till provoke is broken status effect' would mean different amounts of time in different parties as well so it would result in aggro feeling liek it would randomlly break in pfinder
anyways imma go do somethin produciv instead of being in this thread now (i am not locked in)

[unkempt hamlet]

I think the breaking of the aggro would simply need a tweak of numbers (X% of hp per stack decay). I also disagree that it would "randomly" break as the debuff would be visible above the head of the boss as is the case with winded, discombob, etc.... it's enough clarity that a team who knows what it is would be able to recognize when aggro is going to break

And plan accordingly

With such an ability, a great team would be able to plan with their paladin to aggro at the proper time to allow a good moment to burst before aggro drops.
In a good team the paladin can keep aggro for a while before it dropping and them needing to reapply, minimizing risk for their team while still needing them to be on their toes after aggro drops.
In a bad team it allows the paladin to keep constant aggro and keep their team alive.

This also solves the problem that provoke/paladin is "braindead" requiring proper coordination to get right. It would also also solve the problem of bmonks picking it up, as it would be locked behind SS

I assume it would also solve the problem that provoke is not fun to play with as any other classes, because instead of trivializing the boss, it simply allows for a larger and safer opening than usual (of course given that you are dealing enough damage)

Thoughts @distant summit @hexed drift ?

[hexed drift]

i’m like half asleep

[unkempt hamlet]

Go to bed silly

[hexed drift]

too much work

[unkempt hamlet]

Read it in the morning (assuming this thread doesn't get flooded with more messages overnight)

[hexed drift]

is the tldr just provoke having a window of no provoke making the pala work their way getting the provoke back while also having the team not stand still and dps

[unkempt hamlet]

Tldr provoke becomes a "debuff" which paladin stacks after WS which is built with sacred surge and decays based on a _% of damage being done

[hexed drift]

ws like walk speed?

[unkempt hamlet]

War scream, sorry

It can be given a cooldown too, which can also be tweaked in such a way that it can't just be spammed if people charge SS too quickly

[hexed drift]

i’m still kinda confused on the whole decaying and damage dealt part

[placid bough]

If provoke does get nerfed, is it too much to ask for a small buff to another ability or if possible, another ability to make up for it?

[hexed drift]

pala should have some synergy with reflection and thorns for damage

[placid bough]

Are reflection and thorns even good at all

[cunning shell]

as cool and unique as that sounds

so many new items would need to be made no?

[unkempt hamlet]

Something like "for X times sacred surge is used, or for X amount of damage done with sacred surge, create 5 stacks of 'provoke' Provoke stacks decay at a rate of 1 stack of provoke for every 0.5% health the enemy loses. (Since max charge of SS rn is 4x5=20x0.5=10% hp drop would mean no more held aggro)

Of course, the numbers can be tweaked

[hexed drift]

so having provoke during an hp threshold is what you’re saying

[unkempt hamlet]

Yes

And that's only if the paladin reaches max stacks

[hexed drift]

if it has a buildup then yeah sure, it’s a good start away from having provoke be perma uptime

[unkempt hamlet]

Often times I'd agrue they won't (have max stacks), and that's why said in a great team they would have to coordinate with the paladin to time the provoke at the proper time for optimal bursting

Also would depend on the individual paladins skill as well

[hexed drift]

it’s a cool idea for provoke to have a buildup, wait for it to max, then dps bosses until provoke runs out through hp threshold

[unkempt sonnet]

yeah paladin being able to manipulate dps phases would be super cool

[tawny kraken]

for 1 patch yea

2 weeks

[unkempt hamlet]

Yea was just explaining, wasn't really that long

[hexed drift]

some guy said a month

[unkempt hamlet]

That's why I said "a while" and not "forever" or "a long time"

[tawny kraken]

lol

[unkempt hamlet]

I am cooking please just believe in the dream

[hexed drift]

i’d like to see provoke have some buildup and downfall during bosses, cool system, but idk if it’ll get implemented so we’ll see if it changes in the coming changes

[cunning shell]

yea the bug wasnt the only factor IIRC bmonk was just dogshit for 1 month

its only recently with the stack limit increase its back to how it used to be

[unkempt hamlet]

This is so real 😭

[tawny kraken]

2 weeks

[cunning shell]

bug was just 2 weeks

[tawny kraken]

mm no all the bmonk stuff was also 2 weeks

[cunning shell]

how long it was left weak was 1 month

[tawny kraken]

we didnt do any bmonk stuff in friday's patch\

[unkempt hamlet]

@tawny kraken 👀 you can claim it was all you

[tawny kraken]

funky

[unkempt hamlet]

👀

[cunning shell]

your right i just checked

it was 10/25 -> 11/9

[lavish fable]

I know nothing about you, but your username absolutely SCREAMS Chad energy so I have decided I like you very much now

[unkempt hamlet]

Its an honor

[lavish fable]

I was using Guardian surf scream before the raid changes and pulling aggro because I also love paladin and thought "provoke + don't get hit = amazing support" and I've never been a liability in any raid ever since

[unkempt hamlet]

I'm too broke to afford a decent guardian, else I'd probably be doing something similar

I enjoy tank roles and I enjoy wynncraft, it's a shame that in it's current state it's not viable. That is why I am so adamant and think so hard about what can be done to make paladin great

[jade basin]

Then we simply use delirious gas for the exact same effect with 100% uptime

[unkempt hamlet]

#1312523253830385735 message thoughts?

I elaborate here #1312523253830385735 message

And this is my reasoning #1312523253830385735 message

[jade basin]

I fully support paladin becoming more active but that'd simply drive up delirious gas usage

It doesn't help that tank trickster gets higher dps than tank paladin anyway

[trim sky]

Not like that's a problem is it trickster sees no playtime

[unkempt hamlet]

Damn

[jade basin]

Assassin players tend to prefer offensive builds but tank trickster is pretty good

I've been using tank trickster a lot in 2.0 and it felt like what paladin should've felt like

[trim sky]

I think dgas is just less effective because it requires more setup than provoke by a little

[jade basin]

A functioning archetype with synergy between its nodes and good dps when having to solo

[unkempt hamlet]

Thoughts on my idea? How hard would it be to implement?

[trim sky]

If what you're saying is true then everyone would just use trickster instead of Pala to agro TNA, but they dont

[jade basin]

Thanks to sticky bomb it requires throwing a bomb at yourself once per 20s

That's all it needs for 100% uptime

[trim sky]

Sticky can stick to yourself?

[north root]

Well, maybe the issue is that provoke is too accessible for non-paladin builds?

[jade basin]

Yes, it applies the lure effect to you but doesn't apply the damage buff

For the damage you have to actually stand in the bomb

[unkempt hamlet]

Message link-ception #1312523253830385735 message

[urban kiln]

Is lure a 1:1 copy of provoke ? ? ? I was p sure they were diff mechanically

[north root]

They have the same premise

[urban kiln]

That doesn't mean they function the same ingame

[jade basin]

Provoke works on mobs (if a mob has provoke it will target you), lure works on the player (if a player has lure all mobs will target it)
Same outcome

[trim sky]

Well idk if lex already said but we are considering making provoke take surge to use and move it to be a proper paladin ability

[north root]

Same could be achieved by making provoke last shorter but making it have no cooldown so to keep mobs in one place you have to spam it

[jade basin]

Awesome idea
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/773563464743911454/1271598855246450749/Screenshot_20240810-003904.png?ex=674ce5b8&is=674b9438&hm=1ea3674de7152df2da2abac14833f4471a2c34598289385c0caa6d000f8a1d84&

[unkempt hamlet]

I don't think this fixes the underlying issue and many other gripes people have discussed in this thread

[jade basin]

Complexity is needed to make a tank fun imo

[wooden osprey]

Adding resource management that you can't control is a pretty bad idea.

Only if you remove the synergy with bash or uppercut

[jade basin]

It's not an issue when only spending ssurge on shift spells (or only spending it on non-shifted spells)

[unkempt hamlet]

Its not that hard to control, build chargescream and the bashspam to apply

[trim sky]

I mean sacred surge is already a stupid ability implementation wise because it is over complicated

Complexity is fine if it makes sense but surge is far too overcomplicated

[wooden osprey]

If it will be using through shift-casting then okay

[jade basin]

You mean code-wise or wynncraft-target-group-wise?

[trim sky]

Well the design is bad so the code can't be anything but a mess

[unkempt hamlet]

Oh no. .......

[trim sky]

It's a silly design to have something that charges in a multitude of different ways that has zero pattern or generic representation

[jade basin]

If it only charged through rejuvenating skin and spell casts not much would change

[unkempt hamlet]

Still probably a nightmare I'd imagine

[trim sky]

But anyway, that's beside the point. Paladin does have a lot of work it needs in general and unfortunately it isn't worth making too many huge changes until the rework because it could be a waste of time if we undo it all in a month or two

[jade basin]

Get hit -> add.. 2%? sacred surge
Cast spell -> add.. 3%? sacred surge
Should be quite clean

[unkempt hamlet]

Paladin rework coming??? 🙏

[jade basin]

The current system of sacred surge charging is very cool though

[unkempt hamlet]

At the same time it could be tweaked so that SS spends 10 or 15 per bash/upper 🙏

[jade basin]

I really am hoping it'll get a rework. Warrior was the first class to release in 2.0 beta and it's quite obvious that paladin was the first archetype they made, when they didn't know what they could do yet, didn't know which power level they were aiming for and didn't think about synergies yet

[wooden osprey]

Current system of sacred surge is kinda... okay, but useless, since it deals a 0 dmg and doesn't give any utilities

[jade basin]

Now with much more archetype design knowledge paladin really could get a full rework

[jade basin]

Yes, a buff/debuff system would be much better since then your spells still have value when you're in a group

[trim sky]

Well ofc it will get a rework

[jade basin]

:D awesome thanks

[trim sky]

It's in our plans, it's just gonna take a while to plan it all out and implement it

[unkempt hamlet]

🙏

[trim sky]

But you can have faith because look at what we've done to ritualiat and summoner over the last month or two

[wooden osprey]

Sorry for going off topic. What about the bmonk? I mean it's design now literally looks like "Spin attack"-"Charge"-"Spin attack"-"Spin attack"

[jade basin]

👍

[unkempt hamlet]

👍

[jade basin]

Shaman changes were awesome

[unkempt hamlet]

Create a new thread

[trim sky]

We are unhappy with discombob as a final red node for monk

[lethal delta]

О! Рад что ты спросил!

https://discord.com/channels/143852930036924417/1308283804305068103

Terminated, you have to see this.

[jade basin]

I fully agree
It's a balancing nightmare, overpowered when getting it at lvl 60-something, useless in lootruns after a few boons

[idle vessel]

Imagine they turn your shield block concept into a quick time event thing

Minecraft story mode ahh gameplay

[next thorn]

guardian when all teammates skill issue

[woeful coyote]

true!

big skill issue on there part if they die w/ you there LOL

[stark oracle]

or the guard sucks

[signal egret]

Yea this guardian is super bad I think

[runic flame]

yeah i agree this guardian sucks

a real guardian player would just afk

[hasty musk]

a real guardian player would tank all teammates watched once so they can take 2 more watched hits fr

[woeful coyote]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/770094079102681198/1251653593530896384/attachment-14.gif

[harsh flax]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/262010576295821312/1299503970758164530/paladindps.gif

[unkempt hamlet]

Real

[harsh flax]

people so called paladin main are not real, people so called tanks are real

[unkempt hamlet]

The 31 downvotes on this thread in question:

[harsh flax]

ok i play paladin and i think provoke 160% uptime is unhealthy for the game, i dont main paladin cuz it is not good for doing shit outside of warring and tanking in general compare to other warrior archetypes

it is so funny how people think this brainless feature should be kept

[unkempt hamlet]

Check it lil bro #1312523253830385735 message

[harsh flax]

brah just bring back old 2.0 cd

[stark oracle]

brah just make greg not have 150 ws

[unkempt hamlet]

https://tenor.com/view/troll-gif-26178840

[leaden marsh]

that shows how speedster crashes a paladin player

[woeful spire]

this is so real breastie 😇

[placid briar]

I think there's another issue that currently Provoke and Mantles have the same activation spell (War scream), meaning that it's really easy to accidentally waste provoke when trying to reup mantle or giving resistance to allies. Currently that's not too big of an issue because provoke has a relatively short cooldown but it could become one if provoke's cooldown is increased to the point where missing it has consequences.
One way this could be solved is by tying the cooldown to the enemy where each enemy has its own individual provoke cooldown, similar to how Satsujin or CCI works, or tying it to Shift-warscream to seperate the cast from Mantle

[woeful spire]

just make provoke cd aggro time and cd shorter fr

[winged iron]

Oh my god I am a goddamn idiot

[woeful spire]

hi a goddamn idiot!!
im mysterynotch!!

[winged iron]

Enochian Screech has a 45s Provoke duration BECAUSE IT HAS THE SAME TRIGGER AS WINGED

WHY DID I MOVE IT TO 12s
I’m changing it back to 45 lmao

Okay that’s enough fanmade stuff have fun with your Provoke argument

Or whatever it was you were all doing

[karmic gorge]

hit it on the head, nuance aside

[woeful spire]

yeah paladin mains realziing if provoke stays with 160% uptime its kit will have nothing else 🤯 🤯

[north root]

Ok but what with trickster

[woeful spire]

trickstrer should get a rework tbh :3
lure is only ok bc vanish deaggros and hoodwink is sillly
u had to have like 4+ jh and hop timing to use it well on greg in 2.0 and it might have changed a bit since then too

[hexed drift]

lure is more of a debuff since assassin ain’t built to compliment aggro control

[unkempt hamlet]

realizing? brotha it's been known

[north root]

Not like paladin is still played despite that
It's just battle monk with provoke
And that makes it problematic because it allows bmonk to safely hold aggro while being in the air

[north root]

How so?

Technically trickster has blinding powder, more access to damage reduction

You can get kbr from friendly mage

[hexed drift]

vanish deaggros
hoodwink removes lure
assassin has no reliable anti kb
lure can be cleansed by literally any ability that can remove debuffs

[hexed drift]

ok? that’s a mage not an assassin

[north root]

Lure can be constantly refreshed when you are in smoke, cleansing is not a problem

[hexed drift]

you still have other problems i have mentioned before

[north root]

That applies to hoodwink too

Anti-kb is not a problem if you know what you are doing

[hexed drift]

that’s not a valid argument

[north root]

Do you remember what trickster could do with aggro

In 2.0

[woeful spire]

trickobat was only good at taking aggro in tna in 2.0 cuz of bad anti air attacks + big burst dps to get greg to next pahse

[hexed drift]

you know trickster had aggro problems in 2.0 too, right?

provoke had a bigger impact than lure

[woeful spire]

full paladin is barely played + i agree provoke should be moved lower but also that 160% uptime of provoke is really dumb and should be reducd to somelike like 60% (or 40% without aspects and 60% with)

[north root]

When it was 60% (hell, even 80%) nobody used it even when it wasn't bugged

[hexed drift]

a lot of people used it in the raid meta before

[woeful spire]

????
cspam idol???

[north root]

Greg died before it ran out

The moment he deaggroed team was wiped

And still, lure

[woeful spire]

no???
you would recast wscream and hope he still had aggro on u
or just have two idols

[hexed drift]

do you not understand how lure interacts with vanish

especially in 2.0

[north root]

Why would you even vanish if not just to cast clones

Vanish then smoke

[hexed drift]

because it’s part of spell cycles?

[north root]

What

[hexed drift]

do i have to repeat myself?

[north root]

Why would you need to cast vanish with clones
And not like multihit or another smoke

[hexed drift]

let me spell it out for you again but make it more clear

s p e l l c y c l e s exist
dash is in spell cycles which also proc vanish which also makes you not a valid target to be aggroed on

[north root]

Ok
Have you seen paladins when it had no full uptime, without strobelight

Full paladins

[hexed drift]

yes actually
that was when wallers decided to show up in the meta of 2.0

[woeful spire]

me!

[hexed drift]

like provoke was pretty useful for setting up the team back then and it also had its risks to it if the teamplay was poor

look at it now

i kinda expect one of the hardest content in the game to actually pose some sort of challenge, not easily be cheesed by a single ability in the entire game

pala becoming lightbender levels of cheese minus the damage

[unkempt hamlet]

This guy is so real

Total mage death ✊😔

[urban kiln]

no cus b4 I could just /pa kick them I wasn't forced to raid with them

[maiden cloak]

who r u tryna trick here we know you're the one who got /pa kicked

you contribute less than a paladin

[urban kiln]

BRO I ACTUALLY PLAYED BACK THEN

[north root]

Exactly

[runic flame]

RAID WITH 3 GUARDS PF

[north root]

peak paladin troll

[distant summit]

fun gameplay btw

[lethal delta]

That Lightbender from left...

[north root]

corner can be done by trickster...

and no idc about vanish

[lethal delta]

I would poop faster than he would kill him...

[north root]

just don't cast it

[runic flame]

trickster cant tank nearlyaswell though

[north root]

you just need one lightbender

[runic flame]

pala doesnt need one

[north root]

you dropped to half hp here

[runic flame]

no mantles up

[north root]

mantles are stinky poo for tanking like that

[runic flame]

and like rejuv skin exists

same with counter

[north root]

counter doesn't give you much ehp though :/

[runic flame]

prevents mantles from procing

[north root]

ok fair enough

[distant summit]

even if you can tank this well on trickster, this is blatantly unhealthy for the state of the game lol

the video that is

[north root]

ok how do you get rid of trickster lure

[distant summit]

i am not a ct

[north root]

it is only fair

[distant summit]

what is

[north root]

either both stay or both go

[distant summit]

no? these classes need work put on them and these abilities can be worked on to be more intuitive

and fun to play with, both for the individual player and the team

[north root]

ok but what does stop trickster from doing exactly that with lightbender support

chances you find one on pfinder are very high

[distant summit]

less uptime with clones prob

[north root]

clone uptime won't matter if you get healed

[distant summit]

in that case, nothing. whats the point?

[north root]

and actually trickster has better uptime on clones than warrior on mantles

[distant summit]

doesnt the DR work differently?

[runic flame]

radi support

[north root]

so why potential perma aggro with lure can stay but perma aggro with provoke cannot?

[runic flame]

also free up 1 space for a dps class

also @distant summit one more glue moment

[distant summit]

both are a problem but provoke is worse because of how accessible it is for all trees

[north root]

accessability issue will be resolved

[distant summit]

yeah

[north root]

we agree on that, that it's a problem

but I'm talking about perma aggro

[distant summit]

i think it needs change because of how insanely boring it is to play with

[runic flame]

both are perma aggro and wynn isnt exactly balanced for that

[distant summit]

^

[north root]

okay

good

[maiden cloak]

Glue sniffa 😋

[distant summit]

so insanely stupid lol

[jade lance]

being 100% transparent roar is by far the most damaging attack orphion has and is the only thing that hurts hypertank a considerable ammount, it ends before it kills you though and isnce u have like a million hpr he will never be able to kill you which does need to be changed probably

[runic flame]

its like making every boss into greg in 2.0 where they do nothing except for a few flashy attacks and pala was so much more tanky back then because mythic armor tomes

Wynn tried to counter this by adding so many more true damage attacks and anti tank mechanics in general that pala doesnt work well (purple circle true dmg, provoke nerfed, skulls, knockback ignoring).

now in 2.1, they scaled back a lot of these true dmg attacks, removed a lot of anti-tank mechanics, buffed provoke to be more cracked. well you can guess what happened

[distant summit]

^

[north root]

that was without mantles and base paladin is like barely tankier than base trickster

[jade lance]

trickster doesnt have a weapon that gives you 8k hp lol

[north root]

that was easily survivable by trickster too

[north root]

this attack was survivable with inferno though

[distant summit]

sreggad 😱

[north root]

• distraction

[maiden cloak]

Big arm

[jade lance]

ig theres clones actually yeah

depends though cause those dont help with td at all

[runic flame]

noot's arm when he plays 100000000 mr weathered shade

[north root]

considering trickster has better access to clones than pala to mantles... I guess so

(hoodwink exists)

[maiden cloak]

Trickster has nothing useful for the team tho at least u got ragna and radiance on paladin

[runic flame]

paladin is more braindead in relative to trickster so thats what people gravitate towards to

[north root]

distraction and diversion (lol)

and way more damage

[maiden cloak]

Both are extremely useful when the only person the boss is hitting is you

[distant summit]

if youre on a tank build youre not doing damage

[maiden cloak]

Also that
Either you do so little dps that it can be ignored or you can't tank everything

[runic flame]

bro reallyforgot nulli huh

[distant summit]

you cant blame me

[runic flame]

fair that weapon was p forgettable

[north root]

oh yeah nulli exists

isn't 50% of damage dealt by mobs neutral still though

[runic flame]

more self damage or more support (radi with tclap)

[jade lance]

its like 75%+ but nulli also gives alot of def

[runic flame]

bonus points if you use veritas for dhonour

[north root]

it used to be 75%-80% neutral supposedly lol

[jade lance]

i just use emberplate

not like youre actually missing the hp from leo xd

[runic flame]

dont use leo

hetusol

[jade lance]

xd

[woeful spire]

wtf i didnt knoww there was this many messages looping around the same point

[woeful coyote]

Paladin speak

[unkempt hamlet]

Yea I've kinda stopped caring about this thread the people who don't like provoke just keep mentioning the same like 3 points

Its probably not gonna get changed until pala rework so it's like ehhh for me I don't really care

[tawny kraken]

i've responded to the thread with my points already

[woeful spire]

like 1k messages earlier lol
i beleive it wil get nuked eventually so wtever
i cant even play rn cuz my mouse keeps ddouble clicking/not clicking

[unkempt hamlet]

My mouse would tank it tbh

[jade lance]

Nah, I'd tank it.

[unkempt hamlet]

Real

[hexed drift]

yet those points still show how unhealthy provoke is in endgame teamplay

idt anyone even came up with a valid solution that results in keeping what provoke is rn

[unkempt hamlet]

Filtered gg

[unkempt hamlet]

Errrmmmm, my solution?

[hexed drift]

ok well that’s like the only proposition i’ve seen in this entire thread

apart from ct, which is genuinely concerning

[woeful spire]

cmon 3 sec aggro time and 5 second cd reducable to 4 with aspects it wowuld be so funny
idk lol

[hexed drift]

also your solution doesn’t really keep the 160% uptime provoke has rn, i’d say your suggestion is different

[unkempt hamlet]

I made it nuanced

And a bit more complex, with varying degrees of uptime based on a few different factors

I think generally it would solve most issues people have with provoke, without killing it

[hexed drift]

yeah but i’m saying i haven’t seen any valid propositions that WANTED current provoke to be unchanged

[unkempt hamlet]

I don't think anyone doesn't want it changed, it's definitely a problem but finding a solution is hard

[jade lance]

nobody wants it unchanged 160% is stupid, most people here just want to be able tonplay out a tank fantasy without it being gutted cause clearfarmers dont like the playstyle

[unkempt hamlet]

There's no quick answer that addresses all the issues and satisfies every party involved

Making it have a CD and dropping it down the AT I feel is a band-aid solution

[hexed drift]

why does it look like most people in this thread want to go out of a “tank fantasy” when all we wanted was a provoke uptime change

[woeful spire]

yeah we jus thave to wwait for paladin rework and actual active paladin skills for it to not be a band aid solutiojn

[hexed drift]

i’ve said it clearly at the very beginning of this post that that’s what i wanted

[woeful spire]

also i think every 'clear farmer' loves the playstyle cuz it trivializes raids 🤯
paladin can have its spotlight when it gets an actual rework with more than one active ability

[jade lance]

because unless it drops to below 50% the bosses standing still will still be the case 💀

[woeful spire]

if its below 50% u need to have two tanks to time their aggro to consistnetly pull boss so id say its an ok tradeoff(and then aspects could boost uptime as well wow!)

[unkempt hamlet]

And at the same time you nerf it below 50% and it might as well just be useless

2 tanks is not worth the investment in raids, it never will be

[woeful spire]

yeah and thats the tradeoff you make for makingt he boss stay in place

[wraith cobalt]

i have new thoughts to contribute!!!!

[unkempt hamlet]

Dont let this guy cook

[jade lance]

youre aware the only thing aggroing the boss changes is the melee attacks and being a bit easier to hit right?

[woeful spire]

or you just thug it out with one tank and use your provoke better

[wraith cobalt]

i believe provoke is too over powered. thank you gys

[woeful spire]

good job euoauuaea!

[jade lance]

players still died when we ran tna yesterday on graid and we had a very competant party

its not like it foolproofs it at all its just a different eay to play

[unkempt hamlet]

This is also kinda real tbh

[hexed drift]

if you die in graid i wouldn’t call it competent

[unkempt hamlet]

Greg and notg are where it shines the most and I think people are hyperbolic when they say provoke "trivializes" them

Filtered gg

[woeful spire]

its a lot easier to hit which results in enough dps to trigger watched cycles with competent builds

[jade lance]

unless youre skill issuing so hard the boss running ar you and basic attaxking you is a major survivability concern this should not be a big deal

[jade lance]

sacrificing 25% potential dps to have the boss not move is in no way an unfair tradeoff

[unkempt hamlet]

Potentially more assuming arcanist with 30 winded teammate

Or tcrack fallen

[woeful spire]

then u can just run one provoker and use provoke better to kite the boss (slightly more skill expression too!)

[jade lance]

provoke being based off kiting and not tanking is whats making it so unhealthy rn, if anythijng it shoild make you less mobile to prevent idol/hero infinite kiting

they give up basically nothinh for that

[harsh flax]

because majority of the people understand nothing

[jade lance]

somehow a more braindead statement than "im right your wrong" has been found congrats

[harsh flax]

sir….

[jade lance]

tell me in earnest youire dying to raid bosses walking at you like vanilla mobs right now i need a laugh

[harsh flax]

I don’t understand what are you conveying here

[hexed drift]

was that english

[jade lance]

do we not speak english here anymorE?

my bad g

[unkempt hamlet]

The year is 20XX, and I am the last paladin player alive. When I queue pfinder, I no longer find morph, rainbow, or see people running legendary weapons. In this barren wasteland, all I see are epoch, fatal, tcrack (full crafted). All stages clear in less than a minute, bosses die in 30 seconds. I have maxed every aspect in the game by no contribution of my own. My teammates move so fast the boss is a snail in comparison. The world around me speeds up to a blur. No one takes damage, no one dies. I don't even remember the last time my guardian major ID was used. As these players whip by me, annihilating everything in their path, I can't help but think I'm playing a racing game, not an mmorpg

[hexed drift]

you just didn’t say a clear sentence

[jade lance]

dis-moi que tu meurs d'envie de voir des boss de raid marcher vers toi et te frapper

is that better?

we can try spanish next

[hexed drift]

i despise insufferable people in wynnmain it’s so annoying

[harsh flax]

do chinese so i can understand

[maiden cloak]

If anything the so-called clearfarmers would want efficiency which provoke just so happens to provide a fuck ton of
It's the matter of making the game more fun, not more effective

[jade lance]

he says this completely oblivious to the fact he is the insufferable one

[hexed drift]

not when you act like this 🤣

[jade lance]

the game is more fun when you can play around teammates for many people, everyone ive asked outside this thread has enjoyed playing around a teamcomp more than just 4 dps which is anecdotal im aware but theres no indication that outside a few people here its causing dissatisfaction, if you really dislike it you can just choose not to run with it, its not like its a common thing in pfinder either

[lavish fable]

I think paladin should keep permanent provoke, but it shouldn't be so easy to access. We end up getting battle Monk with provoke as a pseudo-paladin that functions better than the entire paladin archetype

[jade lance]

100% idol chargespam is yet again braindead for the billionth time since release (insane crossover from other thread)

[unkempt hamlet]

Have you read my suggesion

[lavish fable]

No sorry I'm not scrolling all the way up on discord mobile

Can you reply to it and mention me

[hexed drift]

idol cspam provoke and hypertank provoke is no different from each other when the hypertank has a shit ton of survivability

[maiden cloak]

I mean I still haven't voted on this thread as you can see so I take no side because yeah, I can just dodge lucy not play with provoke users
For the health of the game, however it's... not very nice
Teamwork is appreciated, but this is anything but the kind of teamwork we should have

[unkempt hamlet]

#1312523253830385735 message

[hexed drift]

queues into hypertank in pf:
wait a minute? we’re using a system that forces you to play with players that have a chance to use hypertank provoke!

[maiden cloak]

Ya that's why you wait for lucy to log off I jus don't rly raid if I have to pf anyway tbh

[jade lance]

idol cspam is still doing good damage and also does not need to interact with the boss literally at all (at least on hypertank the skulls and orphion yell can kill you) it is intrinsically way more problematic and the Ct have already acknowledged this, it is an insanely dishonest comparison to make

[lavish fable]

What, so you need to continuously attack the same target in order to provoke that singular target? I see a lot of numbers on your suggestion but it's incredibly vague too.
How do the stacks work
Why do you need stacks
How does health decay factor into provoke

[jade lance]

of all the ways pfinder players will troll your runs is provoke tank even breaching the top 10 of most annoying to you be real rn

[hexed drift]

did we ignore the nol video lucy posted here?

[maiden cloak]

Given that half of the top10 is likely some laggy bullshit which you can fix with an ignore add, probably yeah

[unkempt hamlet]

Read bro 😭 please you're the first person who can't understand it

[maiden cloak]

Like I ignore add every trapper I come across in pf, their fault for playing a selfish archetype disabling my view xd
So if you ever find that I ignored you for no reason.. that may be why....

[jade lance]

you can get a mod that allows you to disable specific particles iirc

based response to trapper players tho tbh

[maiden cloak]

I'd love to have a way to disable viewing other players without having to ignore add but that's proly too much to ask for

[harsh flax]

sodium extra

[jade lance]

thank you

[maiden cloak]

Well firstly you have to disable like 20 diff things to get rid of the stupid ass trappers and Secondly it disables all particles so for flame it'd be 3rd watched beam for example

[unkempt hamlet]

/ignore should just make it so you can't queue into pfinder with that player, then all the elitists can /ignore everyone that disrupts their oh so precious skill expressive game 👍

[jade lance]

thats true? do you fr dodge based off the visual indicator though? unrelated question but i find that once you see the flames unless you had a spell almost queued your 50/50 for getting hit by the penumbral explosion

[maiden cloak]

It's not unplayable but ignoring a player is just easier.. if they ever find that i ignored them uhhhm.... womp womp? If som1 cares enough to reach out I'll remove ofc

[woeful spire]

being forced to dodge playrs instead of attacks to have fun 🤯

[maiden cloak]

I dodge based on sounds mainly but any extra indicators can save you if you were focused on smth else as watched started like skulls or whatnot

[jade lance]

trappers and ice snake aspect mage players on their way to EMP your PC mid boss

[woeful spire]

me when 600 fps to 60 fps 😰

[maiden cloak]

Add black hole cbomb users

[hexed drift]

of all the hypertanks i’ve queued in pf:
none of them have died from any of gregs attacks and maintained provoke permanently
ig this isn’t a problem!

[maiden cloak]

Me when I dodge summoner totems to not get mana on fallen 🔥

[harsh flax]

that happened to me yesterday

[woeful spire]

shrimply have -2000000 mana regen and you will be chlling!

[harsh flax]

(the guy who used it crashed themselves)

[woeful spire]

i am sorry for your loss 😔

[maiden cloak]

Ye I met one lately too, banished to the shadow realm of ignore list

Low-key I might get up and make a feedback post about ignore

[woeful spire]

straigh up banished to the beyond

[woeful spire]

just make one abt ignore add and silly friend system too fr

[jade lance]

can die and will die are two different things, skulls are piss easy to dodge so any remotely competant tank will not die to them, again just adding more %true damage in lieu of regular would honestly fix alot of the issues

[maiden cloak]

Ehh ill leave friend system to someone else idc about jt enough

[harsh flax]

cant they just make black holes less entities needed or sum

[jade lance]

they could easily make it just a couple black and purple particles but then it wouldnt make your pc explode 🤯

[hexed drift]

you’re still not aware that adding true damage to attacks is more harm than good, great i think that’s enough for now

[jade lance]

me when i say something with no evidence and then act like im too good to have a conversation:

[hexed drift]

i have said why it’s bad long ago but your ego is too big, glossing over it 🤣

[jade lance]

not egoing u, theres like 2k messages in this thread if youve already debunked it it should be easy to just send again no?

[unkempt hamlet]

The hypocrisy is crazy no?

Not you cited

[hexed drift]

.

.

[woeful spire]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/637441911191371787/1096556522340892854/gif-reverse.gif

[unkempt hamlet]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1312523253830385735/1313238210146730076/image.png?ex=674f67e4&is=674e1664&hm=2c5e35da41408fabc38b58b396eae4e8c9a66e1ba35684a388468dd3bf7874f7&

[jade lance]

this is super tunable though, not to mention if trickster functioned as a tank properly it would be equally as bad as paladin by your definition so true damage hurting it would be good, in situations where its not full tank %max hp true damage will literally always do less damage so it is just a question of making the numbers such that x%max hp + xraw = % of hp bar that is reasonable on a squishy target, this is what most rpgs do

[deft pike]

this is just speculation but i heavily doubt the AT team actually want to make the trickster a tank class

but your point is valid

*archetype, whatever

[unkempt hamlet]

It will be used as such, regardless of someone's "vision"

[jade lance]

thats fair enough to be honest i think gas having lure might be a bit confused game design wise if thats not the case but youre right that most of the time trickster ehp is supplementary for squishy builds not for tanking

[deft pike]

full tank nulli trix sounds legit worse off for damage than pally with even less benefits for teammates ngl

and trix is def on the chopping block for reworks anyway

[jade lance]

make nulli great ag-

make nulli great

[deft pike]

my favorite bit is that on the class archetype flavor text, most classes have like “aoe damage”, “ramping damage” or whatever and trickster has “tricks”

[jade lance]

i never noticed that actually lmfao

[hexed drift]

people still use clones and other dmg reduction abilities outside of being fully spec’d into tanking for their builds, so with this system it would harm most of the builds that use EHP related abilities that make them survive for longer that aren’t meant for tanking, only for reducing casualties

[deft pike]

in an ideal world i think assassin would be a bit squishier as a whole (lower base res, possibly), then they could tune up acro mana gain/damage and make trix a pseudo tank that could set up clones to momentarily take aggro or do other effects, applying a shit ton of debuffs. perhaps the clones could even work like a substitute where it cuts your hp when you use it to avoid perma-drawing aggro

[sage fossil]

shhhh

[jade lance]

yeah thats fine but the thing is %max hp true damage inherently is not going to hurt more than raw damage, getting hit by skulls already nukes squishy classes even with arrowshield or warscream, shifting where the damage is coming from so that the numbers stay roughly the same for squishies but hurts way more for tanks is the way to go, not to mention non sp based damage reduction on wynn does not go high enough for this to be a valid issue, the most you can get is like 30% from arrow shield with max aspect and that is not going to be a game changer on skulls to the extent that it changes the ammount of hits you die to

example: 10k raw hp epoch player with ashield for 30% = 13k ehp, if skuills do 8k damage, the epoch player dies in 2 hits, if skulls do 25% max hp true damage + 4k damage, the epoch player still dies in 2 hits. if the epoch player does not have ashield up, they still die in 2 hits regardless, ergo DR is really not that big a deal in this game

i think clones may be an exception to this actually

[hexed drift]

clones are like 60%

[deft pike]

trickster’s bag of tricks must go exposed for the world to see

[hexed drift]

also dissolution is 60% for a class not even meant for tanking

distraction is 15% that’s easily accessible without being a tank

[jade lance]

disso is also in vanish where skulls will not hit you regardless 💀

[hexed drift]

skulls still target you in vanish

[jade lance]

speed 5 moment

[hexed drift]

pf moment when pf skulls hit you

[jade lance]

literally press movement key

[hexed drift]

you can’t predict how other peoples skulls will move

[jade lance]

you wont die to it unless 3/4 hit you with this example still

[hexed drift]

you literally have to go away from the skull area to not rely on random skull movement

[jade lance]

this is hardcore becoming a "TNA has a PVP griefing problem" complain moreso than a td is bad complaint

which i totally agree with btw

[hexed drift]

this is besides the point though, the disso dmg reduction is applied after getting out of vanish too, and with insoluble, it increases the duration to around 3s, 1s without the major id and with the aspect

then we have agi builds that completely rely on pure luck, which is an issue of its own

[jade lance]

if this is as seriouis an issue as youre making it out to be (which i really doubt tbh skulls should be avoided by everyone anyways) TD can be reduced to like 15% on them or it can just be added to a different attack

[jade lance]

fun fact true damage is actually infinitely more fair to agility users than raw damage lol, it is a garunteed ammount of predictable non egregious damage when hit instead of x% chance to just get bombed and explode

i lowk think agility's current model just sucks but thats for a diff thread ig

[hexed drift]

this is still too much for them to fix and having multiple abilities to feel weaker than they already are, instead of merely just making provoke not be perma

i’d rather have provoke be an ability that was like “hey team! i’m about to provoke the boss so dps the shit out of it before it runs out!” not “i’m gonna make the boss stand still and it barely do anything for the rest of the fight”

[jade lance]

this is the result of design debt as one CT put it, they overengineered the game around support not really working properly and now stuff needs to be done to fix it, its inevitable that the solution will be complex but that is the cost of starting to dig out of the hole theyve made

[jade lance]

yeah and id rather be able to tank the boss for my team and not be useless for 40% or more of the fight, adding skill expression for the tank is way better than removing agency from them

[kindred lily]

I mean, you either change the entire game or one class. You can certainly make a tanking class that doesn't just make enemies stand still or fully disabled right?

[kindred lily]

Choosing when to activate and use a limited resource is skill expression I'd say. Moreso than it being permanent.

[jade lance]

theres nothing that makes you want to time it though, if you could parry a bosses attack with something which resulted in a punishment window of x seconds of provoke cc that would be sick, but just reducing the uptime is only doing that

[kindred lily]

Doing what?

[jade lance]

only reducing the uptime is only reducing the uptime its not creating any deeper metagame

the only way to make reduced uptime nuanced is for bosses to be fundementally redesigned to have states where theyre more dangerous than normal so a good tank would aggro them during that time, but that goes into changing the game instead of the class which youve said youre against and i mostly agree with

[kindred lily]

Well i don't agree with the uptime thing. I'd rather it be changed to some sort of resource bar like commander so you can store it up and stuff. And paladin could be rewarded with it in diff ways. That's ideally at least

[kindred lily]

You are aware bosses have exactly that.. more dangerous "phases" (moves) you have to prioritize countering over others

For example when orph does big chain of dashes.

[jade lance]

fun fact orphions charge is untargetted and unprovokable

its a mini QTE like watched not a more dangerous state

[kindred lily]

That's a coding issue. It should be fixed for provoke to be effective. Still, other bosses still have that and are provokable

[wild orbit]

is it? i was able to keep orphion in a corner charging at me onr guard just fine

[jade lance]

imo skill check QTEs like watched and orphion charge are the only thing keeping being able to aggro a boss with any ammount of decent uptime remotely fair, there needs to be stuff like this or it does just become braindead

[kindred lily]

It has a higher likelihood to kill you than just orph running around, and the direction orph travels is very significant during the phase because of the beams left behind. Provoke would be very useful

[jade lance]

i tried like everything i could think of to make it aggro or stay still but if u have a clip showing otherwise maybe im wrong

[tawny kraken]

yeah it forcibly switches target

mainly because the attack is kind of really lame if it just slams into the same wall 5 times

[wild orbit]

ah oke maybe i jsut got lucky then

[jade lance]

wait explain?

[jade lance]

ct is saying youre right i must have missed something lol

[tawny kraken]

if its targeting the same player, you can get it to slam into the same wall by just standing there

it is unprovokable

youre right

because it force switches target even if it has a target lock like provokje

[kindred lily]

If its a resource bar you could still use provoke on even minor attacks. And switch it off as the attack is over.

[jade lance]

OH i get it ok yeah

[jade lance]

oh you mean like a toggle

thats sick actually yeah lets do that

makes it skillful and also insanely easy to tune

[jade lance]

i wish provoke worked on it just so i could see this happen it sounds hilarious

[wild orbit]

as long as the resource isnt ssurge it would be a pretty good change tbh

[jade lance]

id hope it just works like stamina where having it on reduces having it off increases slowly, maybe putting an upgrade really far down in the tree that lets it drain slower when youre being hit would be cool

[keen obsidian]

you were a nulli officianado back in the olden days

[distant summit]

yeah like 4 years ago

[timber onyx]

i think since provoke is broken can we give all the classes a from of provoke like dgas but for all classes and give it dr to compensate since other classes dont have paladin

@runic flame

[runic flame]

omg it's batterythekid

lvl 100 arsonist

[maiden cloak]

haha this noob

[keen obsidian]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1036586382233194496/1303569058330972191/battery.gif

its this noob…

[unkempt hamlet]

Is this like ancient wynncraft lore

[lavish fable]

trickster is assassin rift walker. You're meant to steal nodes from it, but the full tree is ass 💀

[lavish fable]

even better, Clones turn into literal dummies that stand in place and draw aggro, doing attacks

:D

[unkempt hamlet]

Wait that's just like paladin fr!

[deft pike]

that's what i meant, yes

[deft pike]

but it would preferablybe more complex and have caveats to stop it from permastunning, like having the decoys deploy on your current location when you cast dash

[jade lance]

this sounds insanely op if it isnt able to force assassin out of doing damage itself, very similar to cspam idol rn

[hexed drift]

i would imagine what he wants decoys to be is something like 2 hits then they’re gone, or like mimic a fraction of your ehp

[jade lance]

if you turn clones into dummies even if they die in one hit you can get 7 max iirc? having to go between those and hit each once or twice individually is an insane ammount of time with near 0 pressure for a non committed class to buy, since you can still spec into partial shade or acro for ok damage too, definitely seems very close to provoke cspam

[hexed drift]

well it could just be for the final red node, making hybrids not a thing for it

i have suggested a system for decoys like more than a year ago to be the new diversion

it’s a way to “divert” the attention of mobs away from you while sacrificing how many hits you as a player can take

and if you wanna count damage potential too

[urban kiln]

Provoke so op

[lethal delta]

Hello NiccBoy the ZAMN Souteneer!

[urban kiln]

@lethal delta sup

[halcyon grove]

What if we nerfed provoke so it's not 100% uptime and reworked strobelight

Master balancer

[urban kiln]

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[lethal delta]

I think i should make a feedback later about it...

AND GET 50/50 OF LIKES AND DISLIKES 😎

[maiden cloak]

@urban kiln shu UP

[idle vessel]

I think for now while paladin is awaiting its rework it’s fine for it to have provoke at 100 uptime probably switching it with an ability like shield strike would make it so monks or fallen can’t abuse

[harsh flax]

https://tenor.com/view/kendrick-lamar-kendrick-absolute-cinema-absolute-cinem-gif-8560162018170751866

[placid bough]

What if provoke

[clever egret]

then 💢

refresh needed

[unkempt hamlet]

What if provoke

[clever egret]

then 💢

refresh needed

[idle raptor]

What if provoke

[distant summit]

https://medal.tv/games/minecraft/clips/jdJC2OXyGBDVRqBna?invite=cr-MSw0U20sMjcxNzU1MjA4LA

dont get me wrong, im all for paladin being viable

but this shit is S O boring to play with! im mean seriously, im barely even moving this entire fight aside from watched!

this needs downtime of some sort. it's insane how much paladin just sucks the fun out of the game.

i just had this tna fight and i just couldnt help but post this here. tanking needs to be more interactive for people who aren't the ones sitting in front of the boss, or provoke needs to change a lot somehow. i feel like the latter is easier

just by provoke existing and the pala player having enough EHP it literally completely trivialized the boss. the paladin did like 780k by the end of the raid too.

https://medal.tv/games/minecraft/clips/jdJT5T9yXNxHaMLbY?invite=cr-MSxDTUIsMjcxNzU1MjA4LA

just look at this fight and tell me which looks more interactive/fun

i will admit that TNA has it the worst with being cheesed by provoke, but that doesn’t make it any better in my eyes

[jade lance]

bro just crashed out in wynn main

[distant summit]

?

me when i use a discussion post to create a discussion (apparently i am crashing out)

[hexed drift]

i don’t see any hint of crashing out, rather him showing what provoke spam looks like and explaining why it’s unhealthy

[keen obsidian]

we should nerf provoke

[idle vessel]

provoke having a 1-3 second downtime like before is fine (strobelight would have to be reworked) but then paladin would have to be compensated in another way because the paladin you had doing 700k in your party was probably their peak damage (paladin's damage is very reliant on getting hit) unfortunately nerfing the ability makes the architype horrible

and dont say some bs like paladin gives buffs like radiance bc LB gives 50% damage bonus has higher healing and can do at least 100k dps (some cases even 600k)

i mean i see how its cheesy cause it really makes the boss too free even from a biased source like me

[distant summit]

i agree! its gameplay needs to be massively shifted away from provoke and more into something that's actually fun to work around. in its current state, provoke is simply way too unfun to be the main highlight of paladin's kit

[idle vessel]

ive been saying this for a while but a simple numbers fix with how often ssurge procs would help with paladins damage and shift people from playing hyper guild war tank to a paladin with some ehp but can also contribute its own damage like how a monster lb annie build would

[distant summit]

i would love to see this so much. i loathe seeing paladins in pfinder rn, any change would make me so happy

[idle vessel]

thats another problem as of rn i heard they dont wanna make any changes because its not worth investing into making small balance changes to paladin rather than focusing on an overhaul (which would take a lot more time to develop)

[distant summit]

i do think paladin's kit is in desperate need of an overhaul (looking at you, Second Chance), but i also think youre right that a better sacred surge couldnt hurt pala players to have.

[distant summit]

like you said here, the fact that the player in question didnt even break 1m really shows how entirely reliant paladin is on provoke. without it the calss is literally useless. it's in an unfortunate state where people who want to use it are met with an extremely one-dimensional playstyle

frankly it'd make me happier if i just didnt see it in my TNA pf queues because of how much they leech off the fact that their class doesnt do anyhting but allow other people to kill the boss for them, but that's sort of besides the point

[idle vessel]

even with an optimized build that can do some damage to boss the paladin is not seeing anything past like 5-8m (unless everyone dies)

[distant summit]

you'd have to go somewhere into bmonk/fallen for even a modicum of damage to arise from that archetype

[idle vessel]

id kinda like to see a build up sacred surge instead of a spammed one like reaching 100% lets the player do one instance of damage that does like 5000% damage

[distant summit]

WIND PRISON VALUE 😱

[lethal delta]

Speaking of SSurge:
It's a poop concept for Paladin to deal a damage.

[distant summit]

i dunno, i think paladin should be able to deal damage.

[idle vessel]

we need a clip like the wind prison exhilirate clip but for paladin

[lethal delta]

It's a support archetype, why from all of the sudden he can deal some damage?

[idle vessel]

not as much as bmonk but definitely not as bad as full trickster

[idle vessel]

kinda a structure of the game where even as a defense/support there needs to be a source of damage output

kinda like how even lb as a healing/support can be a dps/support and have more value

[distant summit]

i think its focus should be shifted from being tank/support into being damage/support

in its current state it is WAY too boring to play with in party finder. you can be a support and still deal good damage, look at Shaman!

[lethal delta]

Just get Fallen or some DPS archetype dependent on your preferences/class.

[wild orbit]

Unfortunately if the support archetype cant fend for itself damagewise OR give better buffs than shaman and mage, the only thing it has left is tanking

[idle vessel]

the class system in wynn is more positionless if anything

[lethal delta]

With Paladin Rework it's more than possible, Leadership can grant the shields to allies to keep them alive.

[distant summit]

honestly im down for a supportive tanky paladin as long as provoke doesnt do this shit anymore lol

they can make paladin as strong as they want, i do not care, as long as i dont see provoke doing this to TNA anymore im all for it

[lethal delta]

Yeah, i think Provoke should be removed.

It's beyond imbalance.

[distant summit]

if a rework were to happen, then yeah lowkey

[idle vessel]

i think we can get rid of provoke and rename paladin to "guild war tower" then leave it be

[distant summit]

yeah that should be the only change made to paladin

label it as a rework and call it a day!

[hexed drift]

i think provoke should make mobs randomly lock on a player and target them

[idle vessel]

i also think provoke should make that player take more damage

[hexed drift]

120% speed bonus

[lethal delta]

Sounds like a great idea!

[placid bough]

Don't forget Martyr ._.

[distant summit]

true, i just tie that in with Second Chance anyways. incredibly useless nodes regardless

[placid bough]

Yup

Oh and don't forget Cleansing Breeze, Shield Strike and Mantles ( On Paladin )

[distant summit]

dont forget literally every node on paladin ever

except radiance. that one can stay.

[hexed drift]

tougher skin being more useful than second chance

[lethal delta]

Radiance is great.

[placid bough]

Apart from the fact that it's basically a bmonk node ._.

Increase the reqs on Radiance man, 3 is too low

[clever egret]

...crashed out?

[halcyon grove]

Auto 'crashout' smord

[halcyon grove]

(raged)

[clever egret]

keeping up with slang is hard work, hot damn

[hexed drift]

inappropriate use of it however

[jade lance]

was clearly insanely emotional and really didnt make any argument

[unkempt hamlet]

https://tenor.com/view/xafer-trollgentleman-trollface-troll-gif-10531994125107892258

paladin main provoked him

[jade lance]

"this is boring to play with add a cd"

links clips of games he probably just played that annoyed him

everytihng said there has been said a million times it was legit just venting

[unkempt hamlet]

new provoke buff: aggros all teammates in current party

[hexed drift]

2/10 ragebait
really shitty but i respect the effort

[twin egret]

u didnt even know shit about shadestepper when u team up with your alt (real) to argue with us smh

[distant summit]

you say this as if ive been there for every bit of this thread’s discussion and that i should know better. sure, i’ve been there for some of it but afaik, and i could be wrong as i havent been active here, nobody’s really shown any gameplay of exactly how trivializing paladin makes certain bosses like tna (or groot, kinda Orphion).

im sorry if these points were already made, and yes my points were made with a bit of emotion. you literally cannot be human if you have no emotions when doing anything, but calling it a “crashout” when im just trying to make my points is a bit wack

oh actually was that one Beanless Spineman video posted here…? i dont remember

if it is then im wrong, but still i just felt like sharing my perspective after experiencing whatever tf that fight was

[runic flame]

Groot: Wall meta, damage stack from Groot is not fast enough to deal any threatening damage
TNA: boss sits there and does nothing. Bonus points if you drag boss to the borders so he can't litter the arena with void holes
Orphion: boss will just spam melee for god knows how long in the most predictable pattern ever

[distant summit]

thank you for the insight pro paladin player (i still hate you)

[runic flame]

I recently seeked salvation from satan himself

[distant summit]

🙏

[runic flame]

I'm now back to fallen gaming

[distant summit]

maybe i will forgive you one day

[runic flame]

😔

[short mirage]

fallen guard

[runic flame]

@distant summit the devilish angels are tempting me again