Pre-emptive request to make the new Melee Range % ID affect Shaman's beam travel speed

[primal yew]

I saw earlier that Assassin, Mage and Warrior get straight up range increases on their melee, whereas Archer is treated differently, as Archer's melee isn't instant and is instead a projectile that travels a certain distance before hitting the ground. Instead, Archer gets projectile speed.

Now, for some reason, Shaman didn't get this, even though it also has a travelling projectile as a melee. Instead, Shaman's melee receives a longer projectile lifespan. This makes the Melee Range % ID a lot worse on Shaman than other classes, thus I want to pre-emptively ask devs to have the ID affect shaman's beam travel speed instead of the projectile lifespan, so that the ID becomes a lot more useful. Increasing the projectile speed would also increase the range (traveling further in the same amount of time), similar to what Archer already gets.

[hasty lichen]

the reason shaman didn't get this unlike archer is that it's impossible to make archer's melee have higher range without buffing velocity

so technically its all as it should be rn but i agree that'd be a cool functionality for shaman melee cuz rn its just.. useless lol

[open kindle]

i think its alot more suited for the class

[light spade]

to me it just seems like its the same issue that the ophanim aspect had

[slender iron]

shamans range is already so far you dont need the id, so it shouldnt be appearing for reliks anyway

[light spade]

ended up being a nerf cuz of how like slow it was. i feel like if projectile speed came in tandem with the increased lifetime (with the range being no further than what it is now with the current projectile lifetime) itd feel a lot better and wouldnt be insanely broken imo

[hasty lichen]

what if decrease the beam spread

[light spade]

like, range stays the same, but it gets to that further point a lil faster

[gilded lance]

Flash freeze

[slender iron]

decrease beam spread so much that now its just a mage with a projectile instead of instant dmg

[light spade]

non hitscan mage baybeee

[urban elm]

in theory you could make the projectile have lower gravity

[topaz hamlet]

nobody acknowledged this for some reason so i just want to say, this would actually be a really good use for it since decreasing the bloom would definitely increase effective range like how a longer barrel tightens the grouping on a shotguns spread for the same reason

[open kindle]

a bit sceptical on it since its only really useful for acolyte attack

summoners spread is already quite tight

[hasty lichen]

well decreasing the beam spread is a bit wack for 2 reasons

1. it might and it WILL cause issues later on when more items with the stat are added even if its balanced atm
2. its just counterintuitive and makes 0 sense

[topaz hamlet]

it can increase speed for summoner and grouping for aco if thats necessary

[rotund idol]

no, because shaman's beams dont have to "come back" like orbs

ophanim orbs getting more range meant they took longer to come back which ended up being a dps loss

which is why they inc'd speed

[topaz hamlet]

this is already going to be an insanely niche stat like knockback and crit damage im really not worried, not to mention the absolute worst case scenario is that shaman does full hand damage at like 20 blocks while building multiple items to accomplish it which really is not a major balance concern givne the nicheness of melee shaman already and the fact that items with the stat can just be made with this in mind

[open kindle]

for me the increased shaman range is just pointless because its both not significant for damage
too slow of a projectile to have any use of longer range
and thirdly shamans attack spread is too large for it to even be useful to try to hit someone far away with main attacks
(im for the change that this ID changes shamans projectile speed)

[hasty lichen]

yea it'd be okay with the current arrangement of items with melee range but the fact that it benefits shaman much more than it does other classes will lead to either

1. its balanced around shaman and sucks for everything else
2. its balanced around everything else and shaman does 3 horbillion damage from 2 miles away

if a thing available to all classes has drastically different effect on different classes, sooner or later it will cause issues

[topaz hamlet]

1. attack range having to be coded for shaman seperately means it can be tuned to be weaker on shaman with no issue ex: 50% attack range increases mage basic attack range by 50% but only tightens shaman by 35% and diminishing returns can be implemented like with loot bonus on chests if necessary

2. max glass cannon melee shaman only competes with epoch in damage right now, even if it had high range it would not be a major balance concern, this is also assuming that this is a full damage build with max attack range given for free, building for attack range would likely reduce your dps

[hasty lichen]

ngl just look back at what you're saying lol
you're suggesting a stat that would work the same for every class except 1 where it has an entirely different effect on top of its end value being different from the original one because wynncraft needs more complicated unexplained things i guess

[light spade]

i still think increasing the speed alongside the lifetime would be best, just enough so that the projectiles time to reach its max range both with no range addons and with range addons stays effectively the same

[topaz hamlet]

1. yeah cause wynn has never had interactions unique to classes before (water damage healing scaling) (warrior reflection scaling) (warrior and assassin having buffs for agi in their kit)

2. saying something is complex is not an argument against it at all

[open kindle]

water damage healing scaling is tied to ability tree nodes
warrior reflection scaling is a ability tree node
idk about the last two

[hasty lichen]

theres a very little chance, yk im not an expert, but there might just be an ability for that interaction in every example you gave explaining the conversion and the exact scaling of it which is also (believe it or not 🤯) entirely optional cuz its an atree node

[topaz hamlet]

theyre all tied to tree nodes but so is shaman 5 hand lol

[open kindle]

shaman 5 hand is a white ability

[topaz hamlet]

almost like everything class related is also tree node related because the classes are based off the tree

[open kindle]

at the start of the tree

[topaz hamlet]

no way youre using color as an argument

[hasty lichen]

and even if im very generoud and i assume the examples you gave are actually a valid comparison (which they're obviously not), it's been said before that ct wants to eventually remove stat conversion nodes

[open kindle]

nodes are coloured based on significance

[topaz hamlet]

yeah so youre using the color of the node to discern significance instead of its actual effect on gameplay....

[open kindle]

they even added blue for this friday

[hasty lichen]

correct me if i dont know english but last time i checked hand of the shaman just adds 5 beams and... thats it? no stats involved btw

[rotund idol]

they should just increase the radius of the shaman beam hitbox

[hasty lichen]

its just a super stupid argument which by the way isnt even the topic of the thread
you're not winning this one buddy just give up

[topaz hamlet]

you could literally add a line to it if you wanted saying it scales off attack range different lol

[open kindle]

you mean the devs and ct of the game?

[rotund idol]

that way its easier to hit all your beams at longer distances (whether with hand of the shaman or distant grasp)

[open kindle]

also a valid option

[topaz hamlet]

true or false: shooting a tight spread of projctiles from far away is a significant change in gameplay from getting literally right next to something for full damage

[open kindle]

true or false: shaman melee builds are a significant portion of shaman builds

[topaz hamlet]

complete non factor when the crux of the conversation is the discussion of how a melee stat should effect melees

[open kindle]

no not really

you are arguing that hand of shaman is a significant ability

and deserves to have special interaction with ID's

[topaz hamlet]

yeah in the purview of melee shaman which melee you take significantly changes your playstyle and what your build values

which is what were focusing on because this thread is about the usefulness of melee range

[open kindle]

also doesnt change that the ability is a non optional one that is also not seen as important by the devs

make the shaman beam faster or do all this complicated shit that divides one of the melee types to tighter spread and the other to faster beam speed

yea i wonder what seems more reasonable..

all for an ID

[topaz hamlet]

the devs dont magically decide what is gameplay definining or not lol, regardless of intention the two shaman hands play super different, thats like believing cata is a low damage dagger because CT said so, ignoring the fact it has the highest base in the game

[open kindle]

brick wall conversation, imma go

[light spade]

with how little IDs are explained at all in game i think adding an entirely new interaction for an ID for one class tht doesnt match the name of the ID would be a bit much

[primal yew]

Erm, this is what they’re adding currently lol

The suggestion is to have it for 2 classes instead of only archer

[light spade]

this would be a lot more reasonable imo its just qol so that range addons feel much better on shaman and dont feel like ur beams take way too long to reach their max range

[somber cargo]

Hand of shaman does actually have a use for acolyte, which is twisted tether application of multiple enemies and the fact that shaman does piercing, which Allows for more aoe application, and can be used for void holes berry room (I think I can be wrong). With this I still agree that hand of shaman benefits most off of melee shaman like tierstack, it mainly just gives qol effects outside of it when not being the main focus.

[open kindle]

its qol yes but i dont think its significant enough to have special ID interaction

[light spade]

well i mean its fair for archer lol, id assume anyone who uses that ID on archer would understand that the range ID isnt going to impact their range at all. with shaman, a class that does have limited range, ppl are gonna expect it to increase its range lol

[somber cargo]

This is with me playing both tstack ashock and pain cycle absolution for experience.

[somber cargo]

Oh yeah I agree I just wanted to add some reasoning

[primal yew]

But it does impact their range. It increases projectile speed, which effectively increases the range. As would shaman beams if it was added

[topaz hamlet]

this is ignoring the fact that shaman is a fundementally different class from the rest, attack range in and of itself does not help it gain range because it also has to content with spread, if you ignore spread and only give range hand basically gets nothing and the tight grouping will only do 1/3rd damage at the distance where range starts to be useful.

shaman melee is more mechanically complex and therefore requires more thought and complexity to account for by nature.

[primal yew]

Just increase projectile speed lol it’s not that complicated. The faster a projectile travels, the further it reaches in a set amount of time

[topaz hamlet]

yeah but thats not going to fix the problem that the beams will still just miss at this new extended range lol

the stat will just be cosmetic if the spread isnt accounted for

[primal yew]

Well you can’t have everything lol

[topaz hamlet]

this isnt wanting everything, this is wanting it to be functional on the class

[primal yew]

Wdym it would def be noticeable to have increased proj speed

[somber cargo]

Personally I’d rather make it an aspect (maybe even extra beam but that’s wishful thinking and probably a balancing nightmare) instead as it wouldn’t cause a coding debacle and give different playstyles the option of playing how they want

[primal yew]

Decreasing beam angle is too far removed from melee range if you ask me

[urban elm]

there's already an at node which reduces beam spread a fair bit

[topaz hamlet]

you will only hit the middle most beam meaning at any range where attack range is doing its job, you deal either 33% or 20% of your maximum damage, meaning you may as well not melee anyways and just close the distance

[somber cargo]

Distant grasp

[primal yew]

…yeah that is shaman’s design

[light spade]

this is what im sayingggg omg

[topaz hamlet]

yeah exactly, so if you want attack range to do something on shaman make it decrease spread so its effective range actually goes up

[light spade]

i think thts far too much for an ID

[primal yew]

Increasing projectile speed does enough

[light spade]

i think its fine for the class with the shotgun melee to have spread as a weakness at range

[topaz hamlet]

if youre fine with attack range being a dead stat on shaman then sure

[primal yew]

I know where you’re coming from but there’s just no way they’re gonna give shaman’s melee both speed and accuracy with one id

[topaz hamlet]

doesnt need speed

[primal yew]

Def does

[open kindle]

reminder that the name of the Id is melee range%..

even the speed is a stretch but is fair

[somber cargo]

Well that’s just distant grasp without the 2 extra beams of dmg

[primal yew]

It’s not, archer has it so shaman can have it as well

[topaz hamlet]

reminder that the way you give shotguns more range is by increasing the choke not putting more power behind it

[somber cargo]

Like it’s meant to be a trade off

[open kindle]

true its less of a stretch

[topaz hamlet]

archer also has a way of mitigating the spread on splitshot lmao

[open kindle]

yuh for melee shaman ur supposed to play it risky and get closer to deal ur max dps

[primal yew]

We’re just gonna have to live with the fact that shaman and archer benefit less from melee range % because they’re not instant hitscan attacks

[light spade]

i feel like range would help shamans other melee enough to where itd be fine

[primal yew]

I just want shaman’s melee not to be completely useless with this id

[open kindle]

same thing happens on archer usually with how triple or quad shot gets played so they have to get much closer than what a singular arrow would be

[light spade]

i do think speed + range would be nice qol for shaman main attack with this major id

[topaz hamlet]

i think tbh we should just go with your idea and let people realize that speed does nothing when your shots miss

then have the convo again with actual experience

[light spade]

(using example numbers) like if with no range addons it takes 1 second for shaman projectile to reach max range, with range addon, u increase the speed enough to also have it reach max range in 1 second nd keep it effectively the same

[primal yew]

Let’s hope it gets changed at all xd

[topaz hamlet]

im beating a dead horse atp but if you just increase the range shamans arent going to play differently at all, your optimal range is still gonna be the exact range where all 3/5 intersect with the boss which is 0-5 blocks for hand and 10-15 on reach, players will literally be forced to ignore this stat to still get their most damage and it will just be flavor like so many others

[somber cargo]

I mean with raids the spread of hand of shaman isn’t really a negative like Tcc is huge, tna can be strafed, notg is notorious for being weak to shaman and it’s spread can be beneficial at times, and NOL actually is the main one the can give it trouble but even then the summons are still injured

[light spade]

i get what ur saying i know that range isnt gonna do much for shotgun melee without a spread decrease i just think it would srsly be too much for one ID and spread should be on an aspect or sumn

[open kindle]

legendary aspect tier potential :]

[topaz hamlet]

that would be nice tbh

[open kindle]

other classes have range thingies in their legendary aspects

[primal yew]

Truth

[light spade]

its one ID i think its fine if it isnt as strong on one of shamans melees, esp one that requires u to be super close to begin with. i think itll be a nice ID to have for the non-shotgun melee, and will simply just be something u dont build on the shotgun one

[topaz hamlet]

that would be fine yeah but again this poses the issue of attack range just being cosmetic on shaman which i guess the conesensus is people are fine with

[open kindle]

attack range% + this sounds kinda good tho no?

[topaz hamlet]

far reach is already so fast you cant really miss with it as far as im concerned feels borderline hitscan

[open kindle]

less spread more speed more range

[topaz hamlet]

yeah would be good

[open kindle]

so it wouldnt be a useless stat

[topaz hamlet]

all were really saying here is that it should cost an aspect slot instead of being free but yeah it wouldnt be if u used range + the aspect, definitely wouldnt be a stat i intentionally built for ever though

[light spade]

yeah but the ID is for range lol, im jus tryin to say the ID isnt gonna be useless on shaman cuz it can still be used on distant grasp, and just be nice to have but not too useful on the shotgun one

i feel like all it needs is a lil qol, atk range being useful on shaman shotgun melee isnt going to make or break it, its already so popular lol

[topaz hamlet]

define useless here cause speed itself on shaman melee is a QOL thing at best and isnt something anyone looking to optimize their build will consider at all, at most it will weasel its way into a couple builds. by being on items people want for other reasons

attack range will actually be strong on warrior assassin and mage though so i cant see items that have it being overly strong (i hope to be corrected) and it will likely just be dead for the class

[light spade]

idk im talkin abt the range part of the ID, projectile speed is another thing and is a qol tht should be on the ID itself and not the focus of the ID. i say its not useless cuz imo it always feels nice to have increased atk range, will especially be nice since shaman is so good in anni

[topaz hamlet]

oh well for range i think it is literally worthless you already barely can hit stuff at default max shaman range cause of the spread, the speed would be QoL this would barely be an afterthought

tighter grouping would probably only make 5 hands effective range 5-7 blocks (goated) and reachs like 20-30 (really good) regardless of whether its an aspect or an id youre really only getting use out of shaman melee in its vanilla range regardless

[light spade]

im mainly talkin abt distant grasp when i say itll be nice, i understand that its not gonna be too great on shotgun melee, but i feel like having a range ID also reduce spread would make an already good shaman option just way better for free

[topaz hamlet]

for free is a really loaded term here though, an attack range armor piece makes 5 hand better for the same cost that twilight gives +2 tiers, or aquarius gives almost 60 mr, the instances where the stat appears come down to individual item balance, its not really something intrinsic to the stat

[light spade]

thts fair, and in all honestly it probs wont matter too much at all since it does all depend on if the items with the range ID even work in tstack builds lol

[topaz hamlet]

it would be so funny if we did all this yapping and its like only for hmelee

[light spade]

no fr

all this yapping all for 0 viable atk range sunstar builds

[night sapphire]

range dont even matter, u need to be close anyways to hit all 5 beams

[wind lily]

yeah, that's the thing, projectile speed on shaman doesnt even help unless the spread is reduced, though making the ID somehow convert into reduced spread (and then making it not op) takes more effort than for other classes

[manic bane]

Many have failed to realise that shaman beam doesn't work the way you think at all

It doesn't have a timer, it has a range just like all other main attacks besides archer where it is impossible to define a range outside of homing arrows/Twain's arc

Melee range % I creases that range. Making it faster would do just that: make it faster it would NOT go further

I can see some argument for the bigger the range the tighter the spread but there's no reason to overcomplicate a very simple ID

The most I would ever suggest doing would be to add an ability that is essentially a conversion like some other abilities where the more main attack range % you have, the tighter the beams are

[topaz hamlet]

spoke to a friend abt this and we agreed on either this or an aspect as the best outcome, if you ever get around to it that would be really cool

[manic bane]

Distant grasp could even be the conversion if we didn't want to add more nodes

[topaz hamlet]

from my usage distant grasp loses so much damage over hand that shaman's main draw of abnormally high melee damage sort of goes away, youre better off with other classes atp i might be misunderstanding you though

[manic bane]

Well I think that's precisely the tradeoff that makes sense though

It's in the ability name tbh, you're choosing longer ranged capability in contention with more beams

Main range % being affected by it would make thematic sense

[topaz hamlet]

oh yeah definitely safety for damage is fair its just that its already got high enough range and tight enough spread someone building melee shaman wouldnt have a reason to be looking at attack range imo

especially since theyre gonna be taking a huge damage hit for it to begin with

[manic bane]

Possibly right, it's the kind of choice that might not be relevant when min maxing but could be very nice in more casual play

Who knows yet though! We post early changelogs for transparency and to get ready for changes, not really for pre emptive feedback! It's hard to prejudge everything before playing it

[topaz hamlet]

yeah thats totally fair thanks for popping in and giving your first impressions

actually one last thing, is it meant to be a major stat? or more like a flavor id, cause i guess depending on what the vision is for it that might determine what we should be expecting, you mentioned it being thought of in more of a casual light is why i ask

[manic bane]

I am no IM

[topaz hamlet]

valid lmao

[rotund idol]

or add an aspect that does this

[primal yew]

@manic bane i would like to add then that shaman could most easily abuse items with -range% since that will not affect them until its like -80%.

[night sapphire]

cap

[obsidian trellis]

Yep it's literally just the ophanim aspect all over again lmao

Like you're increasing the range but it functionally doesn't help cause it's not like you're ever attacking things at max range with shaman melee anyway

[serene summit]

different because u can have multiple beams shooting at the same time (I think?)

so u DO get the effect of the added range

it is like the manastoem node

u get same mana no matter the interval

[obsidian trellis]

Same because even if you get more range on paper, you don't get more range in practice because mobs move out of the way before your melee reaches them

I get what you're saying tho

[serene summit]

mm maybe on small mobs or agile mobs yeah

but like bosses ( tcc , tna ,annie , the eye , it would matter

tho tna range doesn’t matter lol

[obsidian trellis]

Which ends up being far more frequent than you'd think in practice. On anything that doesn't chase you

[serene summit]

yeah I see u can only queue up so much

[obsidian trellis]

(then again shaman hardly ever uses a melee build so idk how much this actually matters)

[serene summit]

before all ur attacks are dodged

[serene summit]

suntar hype just disappeared yeah and ppl barely use shock

[obsidian trellis]

In light of the Summoner changes, yeah. It might be a slight nerf in damage, but in functionality it's so much more fun