TOA Update

[obtuse mantle]

Tower of ascension is falling behind with rooms requiring you to still pick up the tokens and manually put it in. I think the same for qira still would be nice to update it to how our dungeons are. Additionally the mobs you fight are also still using old models/AI feeling very pre 2.1.

[calm bison]

busy but seen, noting for when im on break

[outer crag]

not sure it will work

apparently it is too hard to extend range on chests for mob kill detection

which would need to happen if TOA is “upgraded”

with the dev team’s current capabilities

tokens are better

#1307809914936234024

GOOD SUGGESTION + POOPOO +IMPLEMENTATION ABIKITIES —-> POOOPOO CHANCE

POOPOO PLEASE MAKE THEM BOTH BETTER THO

[outer crag]

you won’t be able to log out or ./class D:

[obtuse mantle]

Range on chests? Can't it just be to count the mob kill even if it doesn't do the soul gaterhing stuff into a certain location

But I'm familiar with plug in coding to a decent extent so maybe I'm missing some info but I don't see what creates the difficulty

[obtuse mantle]

Yeah I'm not really expecting this to happen anytime soon it's not like you guys are a massive team that can dedicate to this all the time so it's no worries. I just put it to put it since it it's a feedback I suppose

[calm bison]

No, I meant that as in, I'm at work rn and was browsing

I'm on break now so I can talk about it

ToA absolutely does deserve updating. For one, a lot of the mobs are designed poorly for the space you fight them in. For another, reducing the token count from 10 to 5 when the whole point was swarm fights was a mistake that just makes it and Hive feel more homogenous. Further, the theming of the floors is also outdated and fairly random, and last, the reward is Lv 75 even though the mobs and their actual power goes up to 110 and beyond with the bosses, and you get nothing til completion, which just feels bad.

Hive's in a somewhat better position but could absolutely use polish on the enemy front.

Just keep in mind that between ToA and Hive there are 128 different mobs to update, and even just making one cool unique moveset mob takes time.

[obtuse mantle]

Well I'm glad to hear its been in thought. And that would be great if all those things could be addressed making it more appealing and fresh. My main concern was the whole token stuff since it was just a bit frustrating per say. But yeah 128 mobs is a lot. If anything it could be tackled in stages like revamping the bosses only and so on. Iteratively. I suppose the design is a bit random and I'm curious as to how you guys would change it up. That's more of a lower priority thing I'd think tho

[errant pollen]

Me when decade old content :(

ay the very least could we delete all shot gun mobs or at least reduce the spawnrate of them

[obtuse mantle]

Also thoughts on this just putting it out there but I feel like redesigning TOA in a systematic sense where instead of it being a quest as a whole, it could be more like mini dungeons (almost forgery style) or in any sense where each level completion grants a reward and marks as compelte in the quest book so instead of being low level and having it unfinished in your quest book effectively until you let's say level 80. You can actually compelte each tier for your respective floor.

[errant pollen]

bandaid patch is better than no band aid patch (shouldn't take too long no? also why would u give the mobs stats above the lvl 75 baseline when it's meant to be done at lvl 75)

[errant pollen]

add lusco scrolls fr

[obtuse mantle]

True. It's definitely out dated and needs to be caught up. Again I think the idea of treating each floor as it's own completion and maybe taking it away from a quest adds a new incentive and rewarding feel. I hated seeing all quests compelte except TOA on my 60 assassin. And I know there's no worth in me even doing TOA until I'm at the level of beating it since I literally get nothitng for it

[calm bison]

cause it was meant to be finished at 75 before gavel existed

but yeah ToA needs to be properly leveled instead of handing you your reward 25 levels late

[obtuse mantle]

Maybe thatll be the 2.1.5 update 😂

I mean soon enough things will catch up. Still gotta worry about wiki being out dated now for things like raids and such

[calm bison]

make sure you're using the right one, wiki gg rather than fandom

[obtuse mantle]

Oh I see I was using outdated. Thanks!

[dusky night]

I think a good stop-gap measure for the moment would be just to eliminate the tokens and grant access based on kills like in the current reworked dungeons. Not a perfect solution, but a little something to at least help the players have a bit more of an enjoyable experience no?

Unless that functionality only exists if you rework the mob itself :doom:

[calm bison]

it does, in fact.

[dusky night]

Ah fuck, nevermind then. I thought it would be something simple to implement as a temporary measure but having to rework that many mobs is definitely not worth it

[calm bison]

yeah, best to be saved for when we actually redo em

[obtuse mantle]

Yeah tbats what I had mentioned

That's acceptable it's in need of one anyway. Wouldn't it make sense to make TOA scale to end game with a rework. Since that's how it was intended pre gavel?

[calm bison]

The final reward is 75 and that's about where Wynn content ends and you move over to Gavel. Additionally, Hive starts at Lv 80

so atm they're stepping on each other's toes a bit

[obtuse mantle]

Yeah i suppose. In a way it would be cool to have something like a tower ascension where you start from like lvl 30 to lvl 100 since it reminds me of like some shows / mods I've played that act in that way. But it also makes sense not to do that unless there's a way to differentiate between qira in a strong way

[calm bison]

one thing I posed to CT that wasnt liked as an idea- To help differentiate it from Qira rewards I wanted you to have a choice between either a piece of gear or a large sum of money per floor cleared(in case the item doesnt fit your build), but I got near universally told that the money would be a noob trap even if they got to see the item stats beforehand

to be clear they were cool with singular item rewards, but not the choice between item or cash

[obtuse mantle]

Well it's not lile TOA is one per class. If you do find it's a mistake you can always make a new class

[calm bison]

the exception wouldve been floor 7, once you clear the quest fully youd get champion armor and money both

[radiant jay]

yeah its obviously an noob trap since qira voucher can only be obtained once per class

[calm bison]

...im talking about toa

I was never suggesting you could sell your hive vouchers

you just misread something somewhere

[errant pollen]

the real noob trap is blackmsithing qira items fr

[obtuse mantle]

What would be unqiue is if you got a gear of some sort that you get from a level. And you sacrifice that gear for the next level in exchange for an upgraded stat version of that. Not it being completely different. More lile how set bonuses rack on. What kind of gear idk? Maybe it's champion set weakened and each floor completed makes it stronger. Or smth else idk but that's a unqiue aspect ig? Dunno just spit balling

[calm bison]

Trouble there is that it'd have to be usable by everyone regardless of the stats, and at that point you are still foregoing a reward from the floor, xp aside(since I want you to get xp for every toa floor or hive division cleared)

[obtuse mantle]

Morph 2.0 I guess it would be in a way. Except you have the full set at all times just scaling based on floors completed. Not saying it's a great idea just an idea 😂

[outer crag]

Untrapify by letting people buy back (maybe for a higher price)

[calm bison]

...buy back how? It'd be a dialogue choice

[outer crag]

the first time sure

but put a shop in there too

[calm bison]

I expressly wpuld not want a shop to differentiate it from Hive- plus being able to purchase it for money kinda ruins it

cause then you dont have to do the quest to get the item

and if it was more expensive than the money reward, wouldnt it still be a trap

[outer crag]

shop locked behidn quest

[outer crag]

untradeable

and make the buyback not too extreme of a markeup

[calm bison]

you can buy untradable items out of a shop...

[outer crag]

i dont get it what am i missing

[calm bison]

making them untradable solves nothing...

[radiant jay]

tier X catalyst

[outer crag]

solves this

[calm bison]

in what way?

[outer crag]

that u can always change ur mind

[calm bison]

at a cost? which is more than the money you get?

[outer crag]

ok make it not more than the money you get then

[calm bison]

????????

[outer crag]

???????
(toxic af questionmarks wtf)

[calm bison]

Plus that defeats the purpose of it being a choice...

[outer crag]

mm ig

[calm bison]

And if we locked the shop behind quest completion wouldnt it be pointless to have? Cause then yeah you could buy these lv 40-70 things but at such a point you're past when they would be useful

[dusky night]

Question, does the EXP you can from TOA scale with level? No right?

[outer crag]

why past when it is useful?

[dusky night]

As in most noobs would just go with the cash?

[outer crag]

i mean it would be smth like: 1) you finish the quest and get the item (no choice) and npc points towards an exchange merchant 2) you can sell or keep 3) if you accidentally sold you can buy back

[calm bison]

Cause you'd get the rewards as you go, therefore they would be scaled close tp your level- and the quest is to be finished at lv 75 or so. most of them would be way lower level than that

and be in all likelihood, obsolete

[outer crag]

different parts of the shop can be unlocked at different levels (so you can use the lvl 40 gear at lvl 40 and lvl 50 gear at lvl 50)

[calm bison]

We can't do that with merchants

[outer crag]

D: even with multiole merchants?

[calm bison]

thats the prevailing thought in the ct yeah

[dusky night]

I would too. Better than getting items I might not even use anyway

[calm bison]

I tried to do that with the hive merchants and was only able to lock the master merchants behind the end of the quest

[outer crag]

sum1 told me it was scaled imma be so mad if it is not

[dusky night]

Why not just have TOA levels give you experience and money for every floor? It's universally good to get money and experience, and avoids the shop shenanigans while giving you a proper reward for every division cleared

[calm bison]

ALL quest experience scales down to your level to some extent. idk how it detects this but if you would get "too much" xp from a quest in a lump sum, the amount you get us reduced significantly

[dusky night]

Wait why would it scale DOWN? Wouldn't it scale upwards to make it more meaningful at the level you complete it at???

[calm bison]

this is how it's worked for ages and it's why people say to be sure and finish toa around lv 70 and hive around lv 100

but anyway I said earlier I wanted Hive and ToA to give XP per floor cleared

[dusky night]

You're telling me that at level 20 I should actively avoid doing level 20 quests if I wantnto reap the full experience reward for that quest

[calm bison]

...no

that is what you are assuming

[errant pollen]

if it would give too much xp then it gets scaled down

[calm bison]

but it is not what I am saying

[dusky night]

You're the one who said ALL quests scale downwards when you complete them at their intended level

[errant pollen]

it only rly applies to hive qira and doing a level 100 prof quest at combat lvl 1

[calm bison]

scales down "to your level", if it would give "too much"

idk the exact cutoff but "too much" would be like, at least two levels gained at once from a single quest or more, something like that. it only really applies to ToA and Hive

cause no other quest gives that much xp at such a low level to cause that

[dusky night]

I'm not assuming anything I'm interpreting your words as "a given quest has a certain amount of XP, but you deduct a certain amount of it if the game thinks you're too low level."

What you're saying right now about the game detecting how much XP is "too much" based on your level means effectively the same end result of you should actively try to do quests when you're over leveled for them so that you can get the full, unreduced XP from them

Like sure, with TOA and Qira there's a butt ton more so the reduced XP is way more noticeable

[calm bison]

That is assuming that the xp you get from quests isn't already balanced around the level you do them at

which...it is.

Again. I am telling you, straight up

[dusky night]

Then why would all quests bother with this system if only 2 of them are actually affected by it?

[calm bison]

This only currently applies to ToA and Hive, since their xp is formulated for the expected finish level of 75 or 100 respectively, but you can finish these quests earlier than that.

[calm bison]

Because it was easier to make a blanket restriction to quest XP since it's such a vanishingly rare occurrence that it only happens in two quests!

[dusky night]

And there's no way to make this system apply to only just those quests, or it would be a waste of time to do so, and as a result all quests are affected by this system on paper but aren't affected by it in practice?

[calm bison]

Like I said, you are just making assumptions here! No quest EXCEPT for ToA and Hive give enough XP at their unlocked levels to run into this

[calm bison]

The latter.

[dusky night]

When you say "all quests are affected by this XP reducing system" I hope you know it's not an assumption for me to jump to the logical conclusion of "oh then you should have the identical mindset for all other quests and finish them multiple levels later like you do with TOA and Qira"

[calm bison]

No, that's just you catastrophizing because the level you're meant to finish them is the level their xp is formulated for, rather than the level you start them.

You start Grave Digger at Lv 20- what level do you think you would finish Grave Digger at after starting it

ToA and Hive are outliers.

This system only really applies in practice to outliers, because the amount of XP given by quests is formulated under the assumption you are finishing them at the level you started at- except for those two.

[dusky night]

You could have just said from the very beginning "but only these two specific quests are affected by it" instead of being intentionally vague and slightly condescending by saying stuff like "no you're just assuming" instead of giving a straight answer :I

[calm bison]

They are the only quests where you can possibly get stiffed on XP

[dusky night]

And that's fine, but when you first present the information as:

• Do these quests scale?
• Yes every quest scales downwards if the game thinks it would give you too much XP
• Wait so we should try to be over leveled for every quest in that case right? To receive 100% of the XP?
• No you're just assuming

Like you can see why this is not a healthy response when I made a very logical conclusion right?

[calm bison]

when I'm on mobile and can only type so fast and you were flipping out like that I had to say SOMEthing

and also there is the fact I directly did say "no" first-thing but you kept trying to poke holes in my explanation even though I have zero reason to lie to you

do you think if quests regularly stiffed people out of their max xp reward people wouldnt have complained about it super hard by now?

it's well known about toa and hive since theyre so radically different from other quests

[dusky night]

I mean, my bad I'm a fast typer, but yeah wouldn't you be upset if you found out multiple years after playing your favorite Minecraft server that you were actively being punished for doing quests and content as the developers intended?

I come to the realization that you are supposed to be over leveled because a built in system restricts your XP gained if you do a quest at the suggested level, of course it's going to be upsetting

[dusky night]

I figured it was something that I was out of the loop on,

Or something people didn't care about since you can always mob grind any way

[calm bison]

and, I dont think it is a very logical response to assume that every quest gives you less xp than expected for the level. like, do you think we would really let that slide?

do you seriously think we would not have accounted for such a system?

that would be a catastrophic oversight if we hadnt and people would have been consistently and persistently raising hell about it

[dusky night]

Then you agree that me being upset at that perceived flaw would have been justified. And instead of correcting the misinterpretation you decided to be condescending...

[calm bison]

I. literally corrected you from the start.

dude, just stop

[dusky night]

"That is what you're assuming, but not what I'm saying" when I made a rational conclusion doesn't come across as compassionate. Just feels overly rude for no reason.

[dusky night]

But yeah, alright, it's off topic at this point

[calm bison]

A N Y W A Y.

I said earlier that I wanted to have Hive/ToA give xp per floor or division completed anyway

which practically makes that whole entire thing moot anyways as it means the xp would be parceled out in fractions

[dusky night]

Honestly this should be the case for both TOA and Qira. Like yeah, Qira also gives items per division, but they're not always usable. At least Exp would be universal

[calm bison]

yes, that is what I said

the struggle is just. bleh now I'm wondering if toa should give items at all or just money per floor

cause it gives champion set and we arent removing that for sure, but also money, while hive only gives items

so now I am wondering if they should be opposites- toa gives xp and money with an extra gear prize at the end while hive gives xp and gear with an extra money prize at the end

[dusky night]

That sounds fun but also limiting because if "these two are opposites" any future division-styled quests will be out of place no?

Unless this format of quest is never going to be done again. In that case, moot point

[calm bison]

I dont think we would want to have them in the future. there's only so many ways to differentiate them

[dusky night]

I think having a quest that was styled in a similar way to Legendary Island, of doing boss fight after boss fight would be a really fun way to do it tbh. Challenging, but not super time consuming or annoying, since each boss fight would have its own EXP reward.

But beyond that idea, yeah, idk how else to make "Fight 7 divisions, and each division has multiple waves of enemies" feel more unique other than just adding reskinned mobs..

Which in that case, yes, having these two particular quests mirror each other would be pretty cool!

[calm bison]

Uh. Hate to break it to you but that's called Legendary Island

[dusky night]

Yes.. that's why I specifically referenced it

[calm bison]

There'd be little point in it due to the fact LI is already there...

[dusky night]

Having that but as a quest would be pretty cool. Especially if all the bosses were themed in some way other than "Random recreations of bosses you've fought before"

[dusky night]

Let's say for example a quest where you need to defeat a King tribal enemy, but you're not strong enough (in the quest) so you decide to defeat their multiple chieftains and gain their loyalty through some Orc-like "might equals right" battle rite.

Each boss fight is a different chief with a different ability set, and the final goal is to make them ALL betray their king. Instead of the final fight being 1 vs 6 bosses, you turn the tables on their leader.

This is just a half-cocked idea I came up with on the spot, in the span of 5 minutes, and I'm sure CT as a whole could think of something far more with more time and more people, but you get the general idea I'm going for. I don't think it's a terrible idea to make a boss-rush styled quest that rewarded players for their mastery of combat in a timely manner while also giving a real sense of thematic satisfaction

[calm bison]

I'm not so sure, and either way it isn't supremely relevant to the topic at hand

[sudden vault]

i think it applied to that now removed halloween quest, right?

cuz that quest gave a weirdly high amount of xp at level

[calm bison]

don't think so, no

[sudden vault]

oh ic, surely it was close to it applying tho

it gave 10k xp at level 21 iirc

[tropic moat]

Uh

Just one thing
You can beat qiras hive multiple times to get the master vouchers

And then use them to get a multiple master hive items in 1 build

Kinda off topic but yes that’s smth

[woeful idol]

[raw nest]

does he know

[calm bison]

There's an NPC outside the Hive Shop who explains that it's impossible to wear two pieces of gear from the same Hive Division at once, and they come with a gigantic hidden "Set Bonus" that zeroes out your stats almost completely if you try.

[outer crag]

it is like a cheap bloodbath

[tropic moat]

Ahhh