Mythics dont feel like mythics anymore

[azure linden]

I can already say that, this feedback will be really controversial.

This thought came in my mind while i was playing PZ/Mortar and i was like, wow these items feels more mythics then some mythics themselves. Here i realised that, now some fableds, not only PZ/Mortar, now really feel like more mythics then some mythics themselves. So from here i was like, what makes an item feel like it's a mythic? And from this, i had an idea of a feedback on the current mythics to make them feel like mythics again and, because i dont like to complain without giving some ideas to improve the current situation here some ideas:

Give some really nice unique major ids

Lets look at annie's mythics, i feel like that nobody can say that they are not mythics; all them have something that is unique (lets not consider hana). Or look at mortar, or vendetta, or animosity, they all feel like more mythics then certain mythics.

Buff ids of certain stats

Look at PZ, am i the only one that feels like it's the better grand brother then fantasia? Or that stinger is the HMelee epoch that believed hard enough? Look at warp, idol or even strati; they feel like mythics due to their ids. And here that hana makes his appearance; the gambling mythic were, with a bad roll it's rare level, but with really good rolls in theory it should be mythic level.

Nerf even more base dps

This is really controversial i know, but we are buffing ids and major ids, so to make all this balanced something must get nerfed, and imo base dps should be the one to get nerfed. If done correctly, this should also allow a more diversity in builds where people are even gonna use fabled or legendaries.

So, a little resume, in the current situations mythics feels like less mythics then what they used to be. In the past the fact that not many people had them was good enough, but now this is not enough. Mythics are common, and they need something that is different to make them feel mythics again.

[shrewd notch]

First give divzer major ids:
Thunderbolt
Every arrow hit increase thunder dmg 0.1% per arrow

[ripe hornet]

😬

[ripe hornet]

this is a cool idea on paper but i really dont see it working out the way you put it

[azure linden]

How would you make it work then?

[valid glade]

added reaction

[hot spire]

Gaia buff

[ripe hornet]

dunno, i didnt think of this idea, i just dont necessarily agree with how you put it

[sturdy ermine]

i’m not in any way opposed to the notion of “mythics should all have unique feeling playstyles” and i feel like tragically these days there might be a couple that don’t feel unique

[atomic pewter]

Immaculate response

[azure linden]

If you dont agree on my idea about how to fix mythics but agree that mythics are flawed, give some idea on how to Improve

I honestly see no way to make mythics more unique then this, but Maybe someone that disagree can show me the way

[ripe hornet]

art can be critiqued by those who aren’t as proficient as the artist

just because i disagree with you doesn’t mean we have to have a lengthy discussion on why that is and what i’d do instead. i dont have much to say about this topic other than i think it’s a neat idea and could definitely be useful for a fair few mythics, but just isn’t the direction i’d want mythics to be taken in

uniqueness is saved moreso for fabled items, which have niche yet effective uses in the right builds.

[vernal jetty]

i also got something very controversial to say, hero major id is not that useful compared to how it was pre 2.0. pre 2.0 the gimmick was to stay below 50% hp and do dmg. since they keep nerfing the major id people swapped to bashscream or upperscream without using the major id at all. and they cant buff the major id too much because it would be too good with fallen

[azure linden]

Inviting people to have a critical mind is that hard? :P

[ripe hornet]

insult me all you want i just dont feel like arguing over your point.

[azure linden]

I'm just inviting people to talk, if you have nothing to say it's fine

If you find that inviting people to talk is insulting... Ugh-

[azure linden]

That is honestly fair ngl, rn hero major id i dont think it's ever used as intended
Hero could be a nice fallen mythic

[vernal jetty]

yeah, it used to +50% when below 50% hp, now its only 15%, basically killed the major id

[azure linden]

Also giving a buff to hero would also encourage team playing, that rn wynncraft is lacking imo

[vernal jetty]

yeah

[sturdy ermine]

aren't like half the warrior mythics fallen mythics atp though

[vernal jetty]

well discombobulate is bugged so

[azure linden]

There are so many mythics that i kinda wanna see an huge overall, we could honestly make a list
Something that some people maybe could not like, why does warp have that much ws but strati, the speed bow, and archer should be the fastest class, has only 99% ws?

[azure linden]

Lets not consider this :P

[vernal jetty]

lol

[vernal jetty]

maybe they could add a new identification "x spell damage" or something. they could add 10-30% uppercut damage to convergence to make it usable

[azure linden]

Guardian - Paladin
Hero - Fallen
Apoc - battlemonk(ey)
thrunda - Fallen
Bloodbath - Fallen
Convergence - Battlemonk
Collapse - Battlemonk
Alka - Fallen

Or maybe apoc is fallen?

[sturdy ermine]

who uses guardian for paladin
you get no damage with that

[vernal jetty]

hero was battlemonk and probably will be battlemonk after they fix discombobulate

[vernal jetty]

well no one (that ive seen) uses guardian for damage

[azure linden]

I'm honestly talking about "how the mythic should be used at"

[sturdy ermine]

OH right tank item

[azure linden]

Tbf paladin could become good if selvut's suggestions gets implemented

[vernal jetty]

thrunda also works as battlemonk without discomb if u want a tanky one

ye

[azure linden]

Apart from paladin, warrior has great coverage

[vernal jetty]

tho most of the abilities work pretty much same without too much change

mage for example completely changes meteor in lightbender, archer completely changes arrowshield in boltstinger. for warrior only big change i can think or is uppercut in battlemonk but even then it works pretty much the same

maybe thats a good thing idk

[last flare]

i feel like if anything there needs to be Less major ids

that kinda hurt to say, but right now the list of major ids is MUCH longer than the list of ids

and there aren't any new gimmick items without major ids

King of Hearts would be shot down if the idea were to be had today

same with roulette

[austere thistle]

Shiny fableds would resolve

[dapper viper]

This is unsolvable rn

Wait until fruma when the current poorly designed (pre-1.20) mythics get power crept and actually well made mythics take their place

[azure linden]

If you take a rock, and slap a piece of paper with a number, now the rock is special?
That's my prospective on shiny

[azure linden]

I feel like CT added way too many items that feel more mythics them mythics themselves yeha
They at least have a personality

Like, imagine instead of adding warden you would slap his major id on fatal
Or like slap animosity's major id on cata
Or vendetta's major id on epoch
Now you can see them have a personality and feel like mythics (ofc with proper nerf, we all dont want busted mythics and i want a more diverse build situation)

[azure linden]

I think it's still possible to give a personality to mythics, make them feel mythic, even at this point

[unreal glacier]

me !! i get 60k dps on a good day with it

[hazy bronze]

apoc is 100% fallen gaming

[worldly flint]

myth ics....

[placid agate]

ive seen it used in raids on fallen

btw

[dapper viper]

also please dont ruin epoch with vendetta, dear god

epoch with methodical tho 🫢

(please)

[hazy flume]

it’s funny you mention cata and dissolution as if cata is ever used for shadestepper, also -5000 health

anyway i don’t think there’s anything particularly wrong with how mythics are designed right now, even more general mythics are fine by me

[dapper viper]

there is a problem but it just cant be fixed rn

[hazy flume]

and the problem is…?

[dapper viper]

mythics are the go to for everything and not niche like they were meant to be

[azure linden]

Mythics dont feel "mythic", they lost in value, but not le wise
And also build diversity

[hazy flume]

why would you want to use a fabled build which by design will do less because lower base

[dapper viper]

ask the IMs

[hazy flume]

also i call bullshit on “meant to be niche”, freedom was released in 2015 lol

[azure linden]

Some fabled do more damage then actual builds

mythic*

[azure linden]

Build diversity
Having only 1 and only 1 build that is viable is boring

[hazy flume]

off the top of my head a16 totem smash is best totem smash and animosity is best hmelee dagger

[hazy flume]

this is the problem, it’s not “1 and only 1 build that is viable”

[dapper viper]

items were designed much worse back then because of limitations, that mistake can be hopefully corrected in fruma

[azure linden]

PZ is insane damage
Warden is best arcanist damage (dmg scaling)

[dapper viper]

a ghost from the past

[hazy flume]

so why say “anymore” in that situation

also you say that but all the annie mythics are unique and cool in their niche

[azure linden]

And that's what i would love to see all the mythics!

I love annie mythics; so well designed and fun to use

I think i said this on my main message

[hazy flume]

actually never mind trance is lame as fuck

which mythics would you say lack identity

[austere thistle]

Item rarity is a colored piece of paper

[hazy flume]

and maybe this is a hot take but not every mythic needs to be as polarizing as divzer or warp or guardian or hell even like fuckin grimtrap

reason being these polarizing mythics exacerbate terrible AT balance

[azure linden]

Trance rights lol
Trance used to be so good in beta

They did not like the idea of a weapon used for support

[hazy flume]

trance is stupid right now

[azure linden]

Yes, and thats why mythics lost their Flavour of mythics
When all they are is a color and nothing else

[dapper viper]

because they're well made

compare bloodbath to cataclysm and you can see how bad pre 1.20 item design was

compare epoch to something like spring

[azure linden]

If they kept the idea of a support wand, you cant imagine how much unique trance would now have been

[dapper viper]

(well spring for some flavor buffs so i guess its a support bow)

[dapper viper]

you tell me

[hazy flume]

you keep saying mythics lost their flavor and also keep saying that the 1.20 mythics were shit, so which is it

are the old mythics bad or are the new mythics bad

[dapper viper]

old

[azure linden]

Uh?

[dapper viper]

when did i saw the new mythics are bad

the new mythics are very strong (trance more than the rest) but i never questioned their design

[hazy flume]

“lost their flavor” implies this is a new development

[azure linden]

Wait did foxxo Just friendly shot me?

[dapper viper]

when did i say that???

[hazy flume]

Not every message sent in this channel is directed at you Foxxo

[dapper viper]

ah i see

you should've used discord replies

[azure linden]

You are confusing my statement with foxxo one
I think that, old mythics were percepted as mythics because of their rarity, and sometimes because how broken they were
But mostly rarity

But now that mythics are common af and they all got a nerf, they lost all their charm

So i tried to give a feedback about how to give this "mythic charm" back

[hazy flume]

listen i don’t agree with further base dps nerf — legendaries should be all-around items and fableds should be weird and wacky, but i think it’s fine having “boring” mythics like… cataclysm?? (-5000 hp isn’t a big deal i guess) as long as it has its own niche. if that niche happens to be an all-around mythic like Freedom or like. Hero nowadays then that’s fine for me

i don’t think bandaid patching some mythics to have major IDs would help, and not every mythic needs to be Annie mythic levels of “only usable in one specific archetype in one specific way”

like i said it exacerbates AT imbalance. if Cataclysm gets the dissolution MID for example and Shade is the strongest tree, why would you use anything else?

[azure linden]

The base dps nerf has reason, and you can see what it is
If something is Fair, and you buff a certain stats, to keep it Fair you have to nerf something else

[hazy flume]

Trance is powerful right now because Riftbender is powerful. When Riftbender gets nerfed, trance goes down with the ship until riftwalker becomes useful

[azure linden]

Also, for unique its not only about for 1 specific archetype
Look at warp, what makes it unique? Ws and teleport costs
Look at fantasia, what should make it unique? Spell costs

[hazy flume]

Okay, makes sense, but Fanta isn’t held back by its stats, it’s held back by Shaman’s AT

[azure linden]

Not really
PZ is not held back by anything

And has the same buff Fanta has, Just Better

[hazy flume]

Fanta is a nutty item that would be busted on any other class but Shaman’s mana printing makes it largely unnecessary imo

[azure linden]

You bring here a Fair Point
For all this to work, there should be a balance on AT

[hazy flume]

AT balance should come first before making mythics funhouse versions of themselves

[azure linden]

To make balanced mythics with balanced AT, yeha most likely
You dont want to balance an AT based on some mythics, you want a balanced AT and then balance the mythics based on it

[azure linden]

I think that, Fanta is held back by the skill points

[hazy flume]

To a certain extent mythics will only be as viable as their niche is and that’s okay, but right now AT work is so slow that it’s hard to believe that it’ll be balanced by the end of it all

[azure linden]

I'm honestly confused why the AT work is so slow, but tbf we cannot argue against it because who work on the AT is not a paid worker

Much love to all the CT and Mods that work for free

[hazy flume]

i think some mythics could stand to be more unique, you’re right in that regard

but even if some mythics lack identity, high SP reqs force build ingenuity at least a little

[azure linden]

High SP does not create an identity, but it forces the kind of builds yeha, for good reasons tho

[hazy flume]

that’s what i meant yes

[neat loom]

imo the main reason to consider major ids on older mythics is because the anni mythics and loads of WE fableds have proven how unique you can make aTree nodes post 2.1

there's just so much more they can be doing with major ids in making mythics synergize with specific abilities more

[wild comet]

I remember ct saying most mythics would have mid but then ct let us all down. Lets hear it for the better times of wynncraft.

[neat loom]

a lot of mythics just serve as a stat stick many of which are just build diffs, many major ids now pale in comparison to what 2.1 has proven major ids can be now

sure elements and stats will make a build play differently from another, but at the end, whether you play say weathered or nirvana, acrobat stays acrobat. hana unfortunately did not really do much for this other than to allow rainbow builds on acro comfortably at what used to be quite high dps pre-bugfix+acro nerf

major ids now have proven to be able to build onto playstyles quite well, and i do not think fableds should be limited to this when mythics should be the step up

ofcourse we don't need mortar to have a direct mythic upgrade either, for example, but there's so many more unique things that can be done now. Weathered having a currently pmuch invisible major id can easily be turned into a shadestepper related major id to fit into the original theming.

[celest panther]

i think its fun to have fableds be viable, but with how common mythics are nowadays i dont see an issue with having mythics be more powerful nd unique than they are now. i used to think every mythic should have a major id, but when items like bloodbath and warp exist, i think its pretty easy to give a unique identity to mythics outside of just major id’s.
i think mythics are at their most fun when they arent super forced into a certain niche. i like mythics when theyre gimmicky and fulfill a certain purpose, but i dont think any single weapon should be forced into a single playstyle.
currently theres quite a few mythics that feel either boring and lacking identity (freedom) or too forced into a single playstyle (divzer). i think ironing out these edge cases should be enough, as i think the anni mythics have shown tht mythic designs can be super fun and unique in the future

[hazy flume]

are the annie mythics not forcing a single playstyle what

hana is shit on shade/trix, reso(lol), bbath(lol), laby(lol) and trance which theoretically is supposed to be hybrid riftwalker but no one runs it like that

[celest panther]

ig when i say forcing a single playstyle im more talking abt build diversity than i am abt tree diversity, anni mythics do all (for the most part) force a single tree to be used, but u can kinda build them however u see fit

[hazy flume]

eh i disagree on that, you can build any mythic however u see fit but people aren't really that keen on playing suboptimal builds

[tropic python]

Mythics and Annie mythics are two sides of the same coin. Mythics, while definitely specific in their uses do not and should not feel restricted to certain play-styles or archetypes.

Annie mythics open up different ways to play specific archetypes, similar concepts but noticeably different execution. Some Annie mythics are less specific than others like bloodbath to how resonance making aco burst support and damage compared to aco’s typically consistent blood sorrows.

Bloodbath stands out because of its elemental typing and how rage greatly benefits from low hp, and due to how bloodpact and low spell costs work together, combine with great synergy; however, mythics like thrundacrack are known replacements because they not only are more accessible but also are known to function greater in certain scenarios.

Thrundacrack’s damage works well with many of the archetypes and their apparent abilities like surge and bloodpact. I believe mythics having a greater overall purpose for the class than becoming “the best” of an archetype leads to generally better diversity.

This is not meant as an in-depth criticism to how Annie mythics are handled, but those are specific use scenarios that not always will be effective like how resonance requires team play to utilize all of its capabilities.

[tidal compass]

They need to make mythics rarer please god please

I loved the economy pre lr update

Actually felt like you were working towards something rather then getting like 3 mythics per day

[tropic python]

Imo the reason why they were so rare pre lr update was because it needed third party sources like the lootrun discord to actually get anything of value and that if you didn’t have a mythic like warp your chances for getting profit outside of raids was slim. Like once chests became client side, an objectively good change, the economy was gonna get hit hard anyway, of course the end reward chest is a big factor but still.

[celest panther]

if mythics were to become rarer there would have to be a huge balance pass over fabled nd legendary weapons. u cant have mythics be both rare and incredibly powerful to the point of being necessary, nor can u have them overpowered and common. i think right now, mythics r pretty reasonable in power, as they should be for how accessible they are (tho im never opposed to mythics letting u feel OP especially in the case of an mmo). if mythics get rarer again then there need to be reasonable alternatives so endgame content isnt locked behind a price gate

[naive ibex]

@zinc thistle we were just talking about this lol

Idk man I feel like mythics used to be cooler, the first thing that comes to mind as a weathered main was back when it had dexterity which I dont think did a lot but it was a nice little thing to have it stand out a bit

I think major ids or not mythics need a little more personality. Because every fabled has a major id a lot of them feel more unique and cool than mythics

[zinc thistle]

this game punishes being suboptimal way too much, go trry to have fun in li with a suboptimal build that either doesnt do ennough damage or doesnt have enough ehp

if it were balanced around the lower end of builds we wouldnt be having this conversation but with solo oriented bosses having hp in the multi millions a build that is "suboptimal" starts to encroach on straight up unfun or unnecessarily difficult depending on how scorned it is by the system

[austere thistle]

Pulling towards something

[naive ibex]

Agree, good builds should be rewarded they shouldnt be the baseline, I have a similar take on legendaries vs mythics

[hot spire]

Fuck off

I enjoy getting more mythics to gamble into good rolled mythics rather than getting 0 mythics and getting the shit rolled ones too

[tidal compass]

Wow

That is emotionally distressing

[coarse pebble]

Personally i agree with this, it was nice having mythics feel mythical. When i finally got my first it was a huge achievement, now i'm throwing them on the ever growing pile

And shinies definitely do not fill the niche that no longer exists

[hazy flume]

this is overexaggerated

[zinc thistle]

loud incorrect buzzerr

[hazy flume]

it's overtuned for the classic "i slapped any armor that i found on" and i agree that legendary island in particular is badly designed but the game is entirely possible with legendary builds, assuming that mythics are the baseline for damage is kinda hilarious ngl

reiterating that i don't like legendary island and think it's legitimately tortuous content no matter how powerful your build is... you could always do it in a group

but i've come around to the original conceit of the post since i realized that all the mythic bows sans laby divzer and epoch play the exact same

[zinc thistle]

divzer and epoch arre extremely similar as someone who uses/used both alot

[hazy flume]

by definition since one is melee and the other is spell they are different, glass doesn't all play the same but i do kinda agree

[zinc thistle]

"by definition" yeah cause the dictionairy has super explicit interpreretations of what makes 2 mythic bows in the titular game wynncraft similar enough to constituite "the same"

[hazy flume]

don't know why you're snippy with me, i agreed with you

[zinc thistle]

im joking lol

[hazy flume]

the point i'm getting at is more that ignis spring az and grandma are 💤

[zinc thistle]

but legit divzer is just epoch but you spell cycle instead of holding right click

[hazy flume]

oh and freedom

[zinc thistle]

freedom is by far the most egregious it doesnt even have like armor powder passives to play around

[hazy flume]

daggers are also pretty bad since besides cata (ETW machine) and nirvana (sustain stick) none of the daggers are interesting design wise right now

[zinc thistle]

weatherred is cool

[hazy flume]

you can do some niche stuff with spellsteal obli i suppose, but weathered is an air stat stick, hana is "what if pure was acrobat", grimtrap is soul bonded with trickpockets and that's boring, archangel is 💤 and nulli is 💤

[zinc thistle]

obli kinda but obli also had such a better personality pre mana rework when u had to cancel the -mana proc

[hazy flume]

weathered is too old and roving is such an old MID i think it's legit not that interesting or useful

cata at least makes your EHP nothing so that's somewhat interesting, and nirvana allows you to not build 50 mr on acrobat

[zinc thistle]

weath at leastt feels like an air mythic having some cool mobility stuff but ur rightt alot of that comes ffrom other items

cata and nirv have a good identity i agree

[hazy flume]

i don't think air mythics are really the ones with the least identity, off the top of my head all of the air mythics are interesting movement-wise except for weathered

i do think it is hard to properly balance assassin mythics though since the AT is so fucked

[zinc thistle]

the class just sucks and we wont have a good idea of how the weapons arre until it doesnt (probably never)

[hazy flume]

acro is undertuned w damage bc 50 mr required at the jump, shade is better now to where it legit may be the best assassin archetype, and trix

[zinc thistle]

kinda criminal etw cata does less dps than epoch drone #4 3 trillion kilometters in the backline holding right click

[hazy flume]

well, trix is complete garbage so :)

[hazy flume]

etw cata where you have to shove the dagger down greg's throat vs. the backpedaling epoch with enough ws to outpace

btw etw cata is like 6k ehp

[zinc thistle]

yeah not just that but the level fo execution is just nowhere near the same

[remote burrow]

well
it wasn't the purpose of the weapon
particularly when the support was So Very Strong
I think Trance is a really cool item, even if the major is somewhat stale

[hazy flume]

i'll say that legendary builds aren't like significantly behind to be honest, NoL is where I see a lot of the fresh 105s with legendary sets and they don't do too awful other than the fact that they have a skill issue

esp in raids which i think are much more fairly tuned and skill-based, builds aren't as big of a thing compared to w/ legendary island which just feels like "can you tank enough to live its bullshit spell chains?"

[sturdy ermine]

ok sorry im not gonna make some broad overarching point i just have one little thing that annoys me
archetypes “requiring 50 mr” should completely be the norm, and it’s so incredibly silly how much mana printing AT has
arcanist should be niche for not needing to build mana, not just “another mana printing archetype”

[zinc thistle]

true but items would have to be altered to reflect this reality, rn mana is quite scarce on alot of archetypes along with SP

[hazy flume]

i suppose that's true but like compared to other archetypes acro has less so therefore compared to other archetypes acro will lack in damage

[sturdy ermine]

yeye totally agree

[hazy flume]

i do think bullshit rejuv wave

https://tenor.com/view/you-gotta-go-ella-payne-house-of-payne-leave-go-away-gif-21924286

[sturdy ermine]

that’s just a problem w the other archetypes, not w acro
continue discussion as twas going previously that’s just my lil interjection

[hazy flume]

realistically though i have no clue what the fuck i would make the other assassin mythic daggers do. they have niches but they're just not good niches lmao

some of the niches aren't good because they're lame (weathered air stat stick) some of the niches aren't good because you shouldn't say an item is bad, but rather that it's defensive (nulli) and some of the niches aren't good because they're mega outdated (old obli vs. new obli, and inferno being hmelee and completely stomped out by animosity in terms of raw damage)

and i completely forgot that grimtrap existed because of course i did but you get the point

[zinc thistle]

grimtrap is the best example of your point ironically, its design is so ancient people dont evne know it was originally meta as a thorns poison nether pvp weapon

[hazy flume]

now it's cherry bombs fodder

[zinc thistle]

i havent seen a build for that in 2 yearrrs is it any good rn? comparred to other classes and archetypes not just its own bubble

[naive ibex]

acro's problem is that I think it needs way more than 50 even with weightless, 50 shoudl be a good baseline

acro is suuuuuuuuuuper mana hungry

[hazy flume]

uhh i honestly have no clue, i've seen two variants running around one with bete noire and the other with phantasmagoria and i think they average around 200k dps though that might be fake TCC dps

[zinc thistle]

200k for full glass is really sorry damn especially when u cant land all the bombs on most enemies

[hazy flume]

bete noire avgs higher and sometimes top damages at TCC but i really can't tell

it could be higher could be lower but i barely see anyone running it and you can't land all the bombs like you said

it does more than full glass acro on TCC for sure

but that's not that impressive lol

[naive ibex]

saying something is stronger than acro is like saying I'm stronger than a newborn

[zinc thistle]

i might try it tbh just cause grimtrap is a cool looking item and @naive ibex ffucking hates running raids with full glass builds

[atomic pewter]

Legendaries are viable, just watch selvut do LI

[spare crescent]

(archer speed is multiplicative)

[zinc thistle]

warp also has a whole other movement oriented ID on it thats unrelated though, strati could totally get a huge WS bump

or like an MID that lets it escape multiple times on air with diminishing effectiveness or smth

[spare crescent]

big disagree there, especially since Warp has so many extreme downsides to it at the same time that you must build around, or else you just get crunched. meanwhile Strati has some notable but not overpowering -hp as a downside and that's it. one's specialized, the other is more general

not saying this means Strati should never get anything though

[zinc thistle]

yeah i agree it has bigger downsides but mythics are supposed to be the most playstyle averting weapons in the game and should be able to greatly shake up how you play, warp offers this amazingly with the unique downsides and insanely fun infinite tp flying but strati is literally just gales force with a bit extra ws, warp succeeds where strati fails which is in being a weapon worth being called a mythic

[spare crescent]

Honestly, I think mythics becoming as common as they have was both inevitable and contributed to the problem at large, and while we can't really close Pandora's Box at this point we should endeavor to make mythics a lot rarer and more niche so not getting one isn't so much of a loss

[spare crescent]

funny how strati was made before gale's force, huh?

[zinc thistle]

i dont see how the chronology matters at all but yeah thats a p cool fact

[worldly flint]

i agree. ill be halfing mythic drop rate for next patch 👍

[spare crescent]

drop rate to 20% take it or leave it

But yeah, Mythics were originally made only by Salted as super rare jackpots added scarcely, not meant for players to get at first, but that never really stayed as player count grew larger and people grinded for them. Since the game wasn't designed around mythics being common and in circulation, general designs were more permissible but that's changed over the years. Obviously the item team has tried to rein it all in to some extent but there's only so much that can be done since, as high level endgame jackpots, people are really attached to their mythics. Making radical changes to try and make them more niche is going to not just get us crucified, but dismembered- and cause a ton of people to quit, too. So this really is a rock and a hard place we're stuck between.

[worldly flint]

im all for dismembering a few IMs if it makes the game better

[zinc thistle]

they dont have to be sweeping changes but i dont think anyone could have any objections to changes like the addition of slow/weaken to spring? you can definitely give them more identity without causing serious issues

[spare crescent]

hence the latter bit- a lot of people will quit if we make big changes to mythics that have too-applicably-general designs to bring them around to just specific niches like Annie mythics

[spare crescent]

You clearly weren't paying much attention during that time, I'm just gonna leave it at that. It wasn't even a change that forced people to play significantly different but we still got gaunched and gibbeted

cause there's another part of mythics that people are hyper protective of

market value.

Since those were new IDs and therefore got rolled randomly, there were endless complaints about how the IDs were rolled badly and how it killed their value and how could we have possibly hurt the players like that by turning this perfect 97% spring into a 52% trash heap because they got bad rolls on the slow and weaken

Their nature as rare status symbols means people collect them to sell and to consolidate value as well as to use, so changing how they function by adding or shifting IDs is met with equal if not more scrutiny from parts of the community than their actual effectiveness when used as itemd.

[zinc thistle]

youre right i wasnt playing at that time so a little more info than "no" might be helpful in vindicating your argument, a purely positive change like that cannot hurt

people are going to complain for the smallest possible things and somehow this hasnt stopped you from repeatedly nerfing strong crafteds and items, i dont see how positive ids on mythics is now a line you wont cross it seems insanely dissonant

[worldly flint]

insane

[spare crescent]

I think I already answered your questions

People were angry not just because things happened to Spring that weren't Exactly What They Wanted, but also because it punched peoples' money sources. Mythics are on a different level due to their tier and seniority in the item pool, so making huge changes to them is a big risk since it can severely alienate veteran players who are something of a backbone in the community overall. I still think we should, despite the risk, but I can't deny that risk is there.

Like...Salted himself clutched our wrists when we were discussing a base stat nerf to Mythics and suggested we hold off for a different update to "wrap the pill in cheese" so to speak, because he recognized that risk too.

[zinc thistle]

i think that what you said here would have been my opinion on it for the past 6ish years however if you look at mythics nowadays a well rolled legendary or fabled sells for more than a good deal of the roster now, I was one of those people who came back and saw my 80% overall spring dropped to 40% because i got bad luck on the new rolls but it didnt matter cause just by virtue of the market spring was already dropped to basically nothing

post LR update is a completely different ecosystem where the lack of scarcity on mythics has already lead to them having a much different ethos in both the player aspect and CT, alka, oblivion, most of the shaman mythics, and a bunch more all sell for under a stack with decent rolls, whereas a well rolled aphotic or trift or kerat will go for over a stack, using your metric are those items now more dangerous to touch?

furthermore if youre only interested in the market volotility leading players to quit are you only going to give expensive mythics this treatment? are cheaper ones fair game to be changed because tbh most of the cheap ones are also the ones with the least identity right now so perhaps that works out well.

[wild comet]

i agree with a lot of the post except the last part

looking at mythics such as lament the base dps is already so low that players rely on a good water% roll just to bring the item back up to lightbender dps standards. im sure thats an outlier and you mean most other mythics but still i cant let you say things like that without bringing up lament.

i still offer my upvote to the post looking past this end point you have made.

the other mythics that suffer from this are hadal, fatal(you want good spell% roll) and im sure there's more
i know there are certain ways to fix this like narrowing certain rolls on items range(min, max) narrowed but sometimes IM's are gonna be IM's and make wide rolls for the hell of it.

[sturdy ermine]

THESE ARE JUST MY PERSONAL OPINIONS AND DO NOT REFLECT THE CT OR ITEM TEAM AT LARGE.

i don't love the precedent set by allowing player opinion to influence item design. it's what led to a lot of the balancing in HSB these days, and is generally a bad idea. "the economy" really should be the last of our concerns when it comes to item balancing, because what matters is the balance of the items and not how much people are buying them for. i agree that they should be rarer, but also that they should be weaker, and also that they should be more unique.

frankly, the fact that mythics are normalized is kinda silly. they're supposed to be hyper-rare items, and don't make sense as a "yeah, everybody can afford an [apoc]" sort of thing

[wild comet]

i think we both know who is to blame for this tho i think it was @worldly flint doing.

[sturdy ermine]

blame
since when are we blaming people let's not do that

[wild comet]

ok sorry ct dude

[sturdy ermine]

nah js like
ok wait that came off as harsh and like talking down i did not mean that im not tryna be mean :sob
js like
picking out individual ct members for things is kinda ehhh

esp when usually its a bunch of people workin in tandem and things get vetted by a lot of people and whatnot

[worldly flint]

whatd i do

[remote burrow]

debt collection

[remote burrow]

though I haven't been active on The Block in a good bit
no idea what the balancing there is looking like right now

[wild comet]

do i really have to say it?

you made lootruns the way they are

[austere thistle]

lootruns are awesome

[hazy flume]

what would you say are the standout "unique" mythics for each weapon type? don't include annie mythics because :)

[sturdy ermine]

grim for asn
immo for shaman
idol for warrior
oly for shaman
ignis for archer
quetz for mage
this is me at 1030pm just saying things off the top of my head and i probably would not agree with this in the morning

[hazy flume]

grimtrap 😭

legit i do not think assassin has enough remarkable nodes on its tree for niche unique items to exist, to a certain extent every single dagger is a stat stick with different reqs

[zinc thistle]

grim immo and quetz sound like they play different on paper but in practice are literally the most barebones thing ever, grim is just a stat stick to be used with trickpockets, immo is just shaman wwith mediocre damage good ehp and no sustain, and quetz is just a solid arcanist weapon that plays identical to monster or fatal

ignis does work differently but doesnt play any different youre just passively doing stuff

idol is cool as a utility but in combat works the same as every other spell warrior mythic

olympic is a good one true

[hazy flume]

with the way assassin AT works, straight up there's nothing a MID could do that isn't overly niche or redundant

that's what it feels like, at least

like a violent vortex MID seems... unneeded

[worldly flint]

🤨 i didnt design or come up with new lootruns i just made the challenges for some of the camps

[zinc thistle]

shouldve just made them impossible so noone can complete it and mythics stay rarre 🤯

[remote burrow]

wait.
immolation. olympic.
mard you. you said shaman twice.

[sturdy ermine]

no i dint

[remote burrow]

500 bees

[sturdy ermine]

deepfake imagery

[remote burrow]

5 THOUSAND bees

this slander shall not be tolerated

[vernal jetty]

what make quetz and grim stand out? serious question, never used those 2 weapons before

[naive ibex]

yeah I mean grim having synergy with trickpockets is the only thing it has going for it, but that's because trickpockets is cool not because grimtrap is cool

[hazy flume]

because cbombs is the only cool assassin MID

[hot spire]

9 mins for dr legendary

[atomic pewter]

It is what it is, play off meta suffer off meta

[naive ibex]

it's alright, I think it could just be in the ability tree tbh

[hazy flume]

it's the only cool one because it's the only one that fundamentally changes how it's played

like are we really serious with these ones

juggle being a -18% multihit damage MID is kinda hilarious

[naive ibex]

that's real, assassin's major ids suck. there's also the one that buffs harvester and reduces your max marks by 1

it's hard for me not to think the CT just hates assassin for whatever reason, I think I remember someone being mad at assassin players for being toxic when 2.0 first dropped, but like the class was horrible and it still is, it went from being arguably the best class in the game to the worst by far

[spare crescent]

We can't change rolls. Positive are 30-130%, negative are 70-130%. If we could change those ranges individually per item we'd have done so ages ago.

[hazy flume]

acro would need a major rework for major ids to be worthwhile since i vehemently hate flow state and parry's design

or not major but like. pretty big not just a numbers buff to flow state and parry

[naive ibex]

parry needs to be scrapped entirely and should just be like maybe a mana buff that's part of flowstate, flowstate just needs to build up and be sustained imo

[wild comet]

sorry selvut but i think you missed the point

[naive ibex]

I also think assassin is maybe in a bit of an awkward spot damage wise since % spell is better for higher base dps weapons and raw spell is better based on spell multipliers, assassin is kinda mid in both regards and I think having higher base dps weapons would make more sense

[spare crescent]

Not certain what I missed here.

If that's not what you meant when you said that, then could you explain?

[wheat token]

like how lament heff was nerf?
which change the upper or lower bound of stats?

[hazy flume]

neither, it's the "base" heff which changes. as selvut just said the ranges are automatically generated based on the base value

[wheat token]

today I learned:

[spare crescent]

Yep. If you have an ID of 200, then you can have a roll of 60, 62, 64, 66, 68, 70, 72, 74, 76, 78, 80, 82, 84, 86, 88, 90, 92, 94, 96, 98, 100, ... 250, 252, 254, 256, 258, or 260.

So let's say you got a roll of 150 on it

If we later cut that ID's base from 200 to 100, your ID would become 75.

[wheat token]

yeah i didn't really know about this

[spare crescent]

And, that has nothing to do with "narrowing" roll ranges like was said...

Still waiting on the explanation of what was meant there, since I apparently got it wrong.

[high sable]

i totally agree. i feel like for many endgame wynn players, legendary/below weapons are kinda an afterthought which feels like wasted potential

[hazy flume]

i'm cautious around making mythic items more niche because we see niche mythics that are particularly weak routinely get overlooked and priced super low (below a16 w good rolls low). the mythics were never really that well designed to begin with (and that the AT certainly isn't helping, what with for example lighbender being able to run any fucking stat stick and make it work with absolutely no sweat) but making them more common definitely exposed the issue

the reliks are the only ones that truly feel unique with every single mythic, even toxo which is unique in that it's completely ass

[neat loom]

li isn't a really good measurement right now because it's just numbers jank until the mobs get their 2.1 rework

which should realistically make this more reasonably balanced

though it's true right now, doing li solo even with some mythic builds is a pain in the ass and building crabs slop to remedy that is kind of a pain

[hazy flume]

at the same time a lot of legendaries are just complete garbage too, let's not pretend that a lot of the designs for legendaries are that strong in general

do we really need TWO daggers with 10k poison

listen i'm not saying this is unusable garbage but it's uh. unusable and garbage

[neat loom]

i definitely agree with a part of this: HSB catering so much to their loyal slaves that balancing is thrown into the gutter to prevent backlash as if theyre shareholders has turned that game into a mess to balance. Wynn's CT fighting through this backlash is something i respect y'all for regardless of my opinions on some changes.

However i do think overall input on items should be fine? I don't think huge changes to items are really constructive criticism and more so people wanting their item to be good. There's plenty of random mythics that could be getting the infinity treatment through an actual argument rather than unga bunga i want item to be good.

Mythics being as common as they are now shouldn't be changed anymore, as it will honestly just cause another imbalance in the economy where people who bought at cheaper will end up with more while the newer players end up with less, and just make it more demotivating for a newer player to go for those "good, cool items."

If the concept of a "super rare jackpot item" as selvut put it is to be persisted there should really be a reconsideration for a new rarity to drop items like that into, and then have them be designed more like some of HSB's shen items are designed: Just some fun item to collect, not meta defining stats. Atleast the idea of a "mythic" weapon can stay as they are without having some hyper rare mythics in a pool of existing ones.

[azure linden]

By reading something that selvut said, i feel like i underestimated how people would have reacted to changes into mythics; even during the spring changelog, that was a straight up buff, a ton of people complained because of their attachment value to the mythic, even if it was a straight positive for the mythic itself.

So the question is, having a complete rework on most mythics (because, after all that's what the feedback is for) that in the end should be a net negative for the mythics themselves, how hard is it gonna get taken from veterans people?

Making them rarer is a nice idea to begin with imo, please dont make annie's mythics rarer because they are alr rare enough, but normal mythics from lr camps (maybe from 2500pulls avg to 3500-4000pulls), this is not gonna change the root of the problem but it's def gonna help. And then maybe starting to sloooowly rework mythics one by one without ever doing a nerf at the same with of a buff. Mh the situation is really tricky yeha

[hot spire]

Just fix that chrono abuse and no need to get to 4k pulls avg for mythic

Considering i dont chrono abuse its hard to get to 2500 pulls without insane time investment like sac stacking multiple runs that could be griefed by bad beacon rng

[hazy flume]

i think there's a difference between how rare mythics actually are vs. how they're perceived -- i still haven't sold any of my mythics that i've collected because i'm attached to them and they're still rare because i don't chrono abuse and thus it takes longer to get them. a complete rework on most mythics could really only go catastrophically bad with mythics falling into a bad niche (e.g. grimtrap). i also don't feel like every mythic has to be so restrictive or have some insane drawback to its power a la warp or divzer or epoch (because you will have 10k ehp on epoch) because i don't think many people would play a heavily defensive or heavily supportive weapon unless there was organized content that encouraged this, which there really isn't right now

plus with a complete rework on most mythics comes the shitty rolls as a result since they're rolled without an amp and are very likely to roll like complete shit, especially when certain items need high rolls to function to combat their drawbacks slightly (cataclysm's hp roll, warp's hpr/mr/ws rolls, fatal spell dmg%, you get the gist) you just basically slaughter a ton of items and replace them with item bomb mythics rolled to [3] -- sure the design might be better but a mid/bad roll niche mythic is (usually) not usable

if fatal 2 came out today and everyone's fatals were rolled -- not just in a way that made them less pretty but made them unusable because the stats relevant to the niche need to roll good (duh) -- i can't imagine that many people would feel positively about the change

and especially if the reasoning is "to make room for legendary builds to be viable"? i would be fuckin pissed and i don't even play with these super general stat stick-y mythics

the concern is valid but blanket reworking already good mythics because they're not unique enough rubs me the wrong way for some reason and i don't know why

[hot spire]

Overusage of mythics rotted vets minds

Just make a gambit kn raids making you unable to use mythics

[hazy flume]

as opposed to the alternate, wherein you get a mythic and decide not to use it because "idk man brass brand speaks to me you know?"

[neat loom]

anything that changes ids completely will be absolutely despised, items being nerfed will not be liked either. Combination of the two and as selvut said, you'll be met with public executions.

[azure linden]

The situation is really tricky and requires a ton of time yeha

To think about what's the best plans to actions considering the consequences

[unique steppe]

grim HAD a weird use. or at least i did, for rage acrobat. this was pre 2.1 tho, and now grim just... sucks cuz rage is mostly useless

[somber kettle]

i do remember some guy executing 300k dps on orphion with a grimtrap a few weeks back

one of the medias (then again the had a 90% gtrap)

[hazy flume]

a toothpick (buff) changes everything

is that even single target tho bc NoL has 50,000 random minions everywhere

so many random minions i don't even know what some of them do

[somber kettle]

yeah he was soloing orphion and the boss health was being shredded

actually prolly not 300k dps more like quick burst

[stable pebble]

I would say from an item balancing perspective if the table were to be completely cleared from the ground up (not possible because it directly punishes those who spend a lot of time and money to collect good items) I would have recommended making mythics as rare and unobtainable as they were up until 1.18 but each of them were made (with mID and stats) to be gimmick weapons like we got for Fableds.
Therefore, the "rare because its powerful powerful because it's rare" feedback loop would be mediated slightly by "but the niche each one fills is so narrow and the playstyle so obtuse that unless you're devoted to the item a legendary or fabled weapon is a better all-rounder choice."
As it currently stands where mythics are practiaclly legacy and designed to be more of the best for that element, making them more and more accessible was the best option.
The other problem I'm guessing about "mythics don't feel mythic" is also the knowledge we're getting a rather generous level cap increase (120-125(?)) so what used to be the strongest weapons for the highest level is going to feel like a "Level 83 Mythic" does now.

[hazy flume]

it's gonna be tough and calling my shot the AT balance is gonna be wack

[stable pebble]

They're gonna pull a TBC and add 6 abilities to the bottom of the tree to balance out the 5 additional AP, totally.

[hazy flume]

3 abilities for acrobat all of which do nothing, shadestepper gets more AOE and now is more feast and famine with mana sustain

[somber kettle]

they gonna 3 red nodes for each class trust

[hazy flume]

idrk how i feel about mythics being "but the niche each ones fills is so narrow and the playstyle so obtuse..." -- which mythics function like this now?

just so i can get a scope on what you consider a well-designed mythic item

[somber kettle]

ignis is very well designed(i really want one)

the fun tank archer playstyle

[hazy flume]

don't say items are bad say they're defensive

also it's such a passive item how is that supposed to be a new playstyle

oh i get it trapper nuclear emesis with ignis to self damage to heal teammates 🔥

being real i don't think making mythics to only work with one archetype is sustainable esp. with fruma mythics on the horizon

wynn doesn't reward being tanky anyway, it's just "all-rounder" but worse for the most part

why run with 80k ehp when you could run with half that and get like way more damage and still never die because 40k is excessive

[stable pebble]

Percentage Damage True Damage...

[stable pebble]

None, really. The absolute closest I can think of is Warp. It wasn't always used as a mainhand weapon (it was once considered a mythic-tier offhand), and its downsides used to be too much to even consider for regular play. Most of the oldest Warp videos use it for walkspeed builds because its stats prevented it from leaving that role. You could use other items to make it survivable (Boreal) but it ate the damage severely.
Hadal is a good second because it just feels heavy with its super slow attack speed and increased cost on your active damage spells. Each strike has more force behind it and its sidestep from the power-rarity feedback loop is your forced slowness.
Pure would be my third option because entropy was really good. It tripled your cycling and you had to build more mana to use it fully (I think it was like 21/5?).

The best weapons that fell into this narrow niche were Lunar Spine, Blossom Haze, and Rhythm of the Seasons because they changed how you played much more than other weapons.
BHaze let you use smoke bomb as the main damage tool (even if Grimpockets outshone it for Grim's mythic power) instead of an accessory to your rotation.
RotS would let you play healer warrior. We went from 1 healer class to 3 with just one update. While the damage wasn't great it was still good (I used YY's church poison build and it held up in lootruns too). In team content you prioritised charging towards teammates instead of enemies.

Lunar Spine, however, was the perfect compliment to the old spell system. Its massive negative mana regen and life steal and high mana steal meant you had a completely new system of spellcasting: Burst Spell. Mana regen applied in total every fifth second, which meant it would empty your mana bar whenever it ticked over while you held the wand. First of all, it was a wand, which meant that its melee was instantaneous and long-range, meaning there was not the OOM damage risk associated with warrior or assassin melee on a spell class or the travel time inconsistency of archers and shamans. The wand itself was also a formidable melee weapon since mana steal was a chance activation rather than a fraction, so starting the cycle was not a guarantee. When your melee attack activated mana steal you had up to 4 seconds to spam as many spells as you could with your now-full mana bar before mana regen swept it all away and you had to start anew. By forcing you to switch between 2 phases of play (melee damage hoping for a lucky proc and burn down your mana as fast as you can before you lose the rest) it was clunky and hard to use, and as a L87 legendary its damage was outclassed by mythics or even endgame legendaries, but its perfect mesh with the spell system was what made it the most unique playstyle.
Recharge and Oblivion tried to do this too, but one was a low-level helmet (better damage elsewhere) and the other did not have enough of a regen penalty to matter (People either built regen anyway or just enough to cancel the penalty before going regular spellsteal).

[unique steppe]

I feel like mythics should each be unique. Offer some weird quirk or something odd that makes it different from everything else

Warp is a fun example of this

It works in multiple archetypes, but has its own weird quirks

Some can be built for a specific archetype, some should be more general

Each should offer something new tho. Nirv is another good example

Nirv offers sustain, allowing assassin to run with a lot less mana, even tho its a very mana hungry class

Like these quirks dont need to be big, just enough to set it apart

Cata is another. Weird etw item that nukes ur hp but has big damage

Mythics just need something to set them apart and make them useful. Like what does oblivion or grim offer? Nothing

[stable pebble]

Oblivion was Heavy Cata and still currently offers the second highest top-end damage of any weapon.

[hazy flume]

wynn content needs to be harder before reworking items like ignis or nulli and such, they're so boring because the amount of ehp that they give is completely unneccessary for any reasonable piece of content

[unique steppe]

Was. Now its just… useless cuz the sustain. It doesnt have a fun use case or something that changes gameplay/builds a ton

Its optimal use case was spellsteal tricko but now?

Like oblivion fits so well with spellsteal tricko… ig thats a trickster problem tho not the weapon

[hazy flume]

spellsteal shade lul

[hot spire]

Wynn did that in 2.1 and look where we are now

Ignis and nulli still dogshit since healing+dps is still superior than using a tanky mythic

[spare crescent]

Ignis is definitely one I think could go from the ground up. Altruism is a real neat major ID in concept but it turns out to be a dud in practice and archer despite having self-damage isnt really suited for taking advantage

[hazy flume]

hopefully changed guild raids incentivize not bringing selfish builds and playing selfishly with big rewards, or fruma raid just being more difficult and requiring more thought and nuance. again a lot of this is chalked up to the AT allowing mythic items like fatal to be used as stat sticks for lbender

I don't think anyone would that sad to see current design ignis go honestly, same with nulli

[hot spire]

I mean not only raids but shit like LI and qira

I tried ignis its even worst there since they are too tanky and ignis heal is too slow

[hot spire]

Will it be possible for defensive stats like ele defs be able to scale to dmg in the future

[spare crescent]

I also dislike how the name was changed from Altruism internally to Heart of the Pack externally, ignis has zero to do with wolves

eledefs are flat

[hot spire]

Like in other games where def stats scale with the dmg of their skills (ex: genshin)

[spare crescent]

I have asked to turn them into % resistances and drop the raw stats and it was rejected

[hot spire]

Sad

[spare crescent]

this was years ago

[hot spire]

Can you propose it back

[spare crescent]

Guarantee you I will get the exact same answer

[hot spire]

Sad

[hazy flume]

i don't know it's kinda hard to tell the effect of eledefs

[spare crescent]

I have been personally rebalancing(for mob stats NEO Ultra 2.0) mobs to typically deal 50% or more of their damage in their respective elements and heavily pushing other gms to do the same to make eledefs stronger

[sturdy ermine]

it would be really cool if ele defs were, like, a highly impactful thing

[hazy flume]

to me at least when i'm building i don't really think about them and i'd love for there to be reasons for me to think about them -- again when guild raids get harder i'd love to see "specific" tank builds and such for each raid where the EHP is not high by itself but it blocks a lot of elemental damage percent. though i don't think it's that great of an idea to make negative ele defs matter more than they do

[spare crescent]

I cant speak for everyone having followed this but it is something I have pushed for, and I also want to super buff eledef % values on items

I mean at lv 30 when items are giving like 15 eledefs at most what's 10% matter

[hazy flume]

obv with the reworked stats negative ele defs matter the exact same way they do now so :P

[spare crescent]

eleweakness is also flat

[hazy flume]

yeah ik, i actually think that's a pretty good compromise/buff to eledefs without making neg eledefs or specific builds feel like garbage in other circumstances

[spare crescent]

if you have -100 thunder defense and a guy deals 1 thunder damage you are taking 101 thunder damage. if the guy deals 10000 thunder damage, you are taking 10100 thunder damage. that is how it works rn

[hazy flume]

when i was playing wynn for the first time and like questing and stuff i thought elemental stuff was gonna be a lot more influential in dungeons, like that a build that focused in one element was gonna be garbage in one raid but weak in the next and i thought that was gonna be annoying

and then i played the game and i was like "huh this really does not matter"

[naive ibex]

that could be cool ig, if ele defs became impactful it could bring a new id like elemental defense penetration or something

[hazy flume]

idk about making eledefs matter more w enemies considering most playstyles are tied to a certain element

would just make rainbow even more generalist and boring lul

[stable pebble]

@hazy flume Is there a reasonable way to continue this conversation?

[hazy flume]

I suppose what you say is true but I don’t necessarily 100% agree with the concept of mythic items being as weird as Lunar Spine. Blossom Haze, sure, RotS, sure, but balance to me seems impossible. No one mainhands RotS any more because it’s unnecessary for new content. I don’t think Mythic design needs to get weirder and niches right now because all niches that aren’t full damage are basically unviable

[stable pebble]

Fair enough.
All this applies only if all current itemisation was reset completely.

[hazy flume]

That’s my main thought right now at least. NoL and NotG probably have the most “forced” damage out of all of the raids and as such balanced builds are usually better than glass but tanking in either is largely unnecessary

[stable pebble]

I agree that making mythics more accessible was the best choice for how the items were implemented over years of play.

[hazy flume]

Also, do you not consider Divzer to be hyperglass? Is that not an interesting niche to you?

[stable pebble]

Hyperglass? When Rage Abuse exists? When "Perfect Play" exists? It's a niche, sure, but not an exclusive one.
Maybe one of the biggest problems is trying to understand what OP meant by "Now THIS is a mythic!" Is it the damage? The playstyle? What separates PZ from Fantasia except its more extreme id distribution?

[hazy flume]

Rage is dead lol

And if anyone tries to tell you that rage is still alive they are on copium

[hazy flume]

that’s kind of my point though because there’s only so many “exclusive” niches

[stable pebble]

I agree. What separates burst spell from spellsteal is the loss of all mana due to casting spells versus mana regen clearing it for you, for example.

[hazy flume]

burst spell would need fucking nasty amounts of damage to compete