Clone Echo's Overpowered Damage Forces Unnecessary Balance Changes

[light frigate]

Reducing the mana of Weightless by over 70%, making clones break too quickly, or preventing bosses from being properly targeted disrupts the original playstyle of the archetype. I think it would be better to change the damage of a single clone to 10% of the player's damage and instead strengthen the durability of the clones as well as other abilities.

[upbeat fjord]

Left side: no clones.
Right side: clones.
This is fine.

Here's a link if you'd like to see for yourself:
https://hppeng-wynn.github.io/builder?v=8#9_2SG2SH2SI2SJ2SK2SL2SM2SN0u-001Q1100001g000000z0z0+0+0+0+0-1T--EJN3Xp20

[quiet pilot]

i think bro is 1 year delayed

[quiet pilot]

btw click activate clones button

[upbeat fjord]

Unnecessary. All it does is increase the ehp because it's seeing the defense boost. The 'number of clones' slider is all you need to see the damage.

[quiet pilot]

wynnbuilder change no way

[prisma blaze]

not true activate clones also accounts for the clone damage debuffs....

is this guy fr

[upbeat fjord]

Please see the above post and check for yourself

[prisma blaze]

did wynnbuilder update now o.o

it never used to do that

[light frigate]

?

I think dealing 220% damage almost all the time is too strong.

[meager igloo]

yknow i agree with this partly — trix will never get sustain or base spell conversions since clones suck up most of the damage, but i also don’t think the devs want to makes clones not impactful

[quick rain]

a

[vital plover]

Trickster actually has lower dps than acro yk

It does NOT need a nerf

[junior token]

I needs a buff

Or some in built archetype mana sustain

Maybe the equivalent of mana traps but when clones die

[vital plover]

I mean my cata build sustains using weightless

And gets 250k dps

But build in sustain would be better

[junior token]

250k isn’t that much, trickster is supposed to do more damage then Lightbender or acro that’s the point of the archetype

[mossy swallow]

the point of the archetype is, believe it or not, tanking which was said by ct many times before

[junior token]

And it provides no utility outside of lure

[mossy swallow]

yes, i also think its dumb as fuck, no, i did not create it

[junior token]

💀 delete echo and reduce clone cd

Then maybe

[vital plover]

That would get the assasin people REALLY upset

[junior token]

Well give it an identity please

[vital plover]

And as tank it sucks too

[junior token]

That’s what trickster needs it is forced to be supported by theother two archetypes

[vital plover]

Well tkw gets high dmg using it but that is tkw

[mossy swallow]

because when you think of "assassin" the first thing that comes to your mind should be tanki- what? you say damage? no, no, clearly you're wrong and i'm right because i have a cyan name

[vital plover]

there is a reason it is used in wars lol

[junior token]

It needs a proper identity

[vital plover]

Or well was

[junior token]

I mean #1 war dps is still trickster, but it’s less dominant then it was before

[vital plover]

After full consus mayne

But tcrack does a lot too

[mossy swallow]

you only know 1 competent person if you think its only tkw and that still doesn't change the fact that trickster as a design sucks ass

[vital plover]

Or divzer which is just archer being too good

[vital plover]

Tkw is the only one that shows it me

What if we give trickster mana instead of diversion (overhealth)

[somber dragon]

what’s a diversion

[mossy swallow]

that one ability nobody ever uses

[green bane]

I do want to just nitpick one thing here- Where'd the "clones break faster" bit come from? While I'm not particularly versed in trickster stuff, I remember the conversations about clones that were had in-team, cause initially it was a chance to lose a clone per hit taken, which we changed to "clones take 2 hits then disappear" to make things less RNG-based. Echo had about nothing to do with it?

[drowsy lily]

echo aint op at all bruh

trickster is like 2nd worst designed and playable archetype

[mossy swallow]

I mean hey rift is the 1st worst designed but it's at least playable
May or may not be the not intended way but still

[upbeat fjord]

I think he's talking more about Bamboozle changing the playstyle due to Echo? If your clones are copying your spells, then your Bamboozle sacs 1 clone, then the 2nd clone sacs the 3rd clone? I'm not 100% sure because I don't play Trickster, but that seems to be the idea?

[drowsy lily]

rift has a good first red node and other stuff, trickster abilities aint that good for assassin and literally contradict itself (you need clones to be alive to do more damage, but your abilities either kill clones and reward you for killing them lol)

[mossy swallow]

Rift has 3 good nodes, windsweeper, breathless and gust, all of which are rly only there to make meteor do more dmg with winded

[drowsy lily]

3 is more than 0!!!

[upbeat fjord]

This feedback isn't about riftwalker

[drowsy lily]

its a really dumb post echo damage is not op trickster sucks lol

[formal osprey]

pointless thread

calling it overpowered but never really used it in game

trickster just a lost cause womp womp

[frigid frigate]

Yeah no buff assassin is right, i do play trickster and it's fucking dogsgit even during quest, i've played a lot of archetype up to level 70 (i'm very indecisive) and fucking hell even with t2 trickster and other high level hp it's just bad, clone die too fast(any shotgun,multihit,fast ranged mob or too much of them and get fucked,forbidden art adding that much cd to your clone is ridiculous) the damage penalty you get is insane,(should just affect your clone imo, not you) Trickster severely need adjustment, the concept of clones and them mirroring your spell is neat in theory, but in practice it's really bad considering how the game is designed

[light frigate]

If clones didn’t disappear quickly, it would become the strongest archetype with high DPS and high EHP, lacking any real drawbacks. That’s why I believe clones were made to break easily. However, I think this design choice has caused it to deviate from what a true Tank class should be.

If the content team has already abandoned the idea of making Trickster a tank class, then please disregard this opinion.

[junior token]

No?

[formal osprey]

betting money this guy hasn’t played trickster at all

[frigid frigate]

For sure lmao

[upbeat fjord]

Trickster was never intended to be a tank class. The 60% damage reduction for having clones is there to create a sense of 'cost' when sacrificing a clone to deal damage with Bamboozle. You lose defenses, but you gain damage. It's a tradeoff you're constantly making.

[junior token]

lol fair I was writing a follow up but my adhd ass never finished it

[light frigate]

I didn't say anything about Bamboozle.

I also think it's ridiculous to consider the current Trickster a tank, but the content team really did say, 'Trickster is a tank.'

[frigid frigate]

On paper the clone are a good damage reduction but in reality they die way too fast in raids or as i said earlier to anything that shoot too fast/multihit/shotgun mob, even on the website it's not advertised as a tank (and the CC,Tricks is not very clear either) I'd argue that trickster doesn't have a clear role , it has okay supporting ability supporting ability i guess ? with luring that work mostly on normal mobs and diversion that can be nice in raids or any grouped activity (even then 10% is not great) CT should rework trickster while keeping the clone and giving it a more clear role on what it's supposed to do , CC is not even right considering a lot of mobs are immune to slowness and the "blinding" is litteraly useless, i genuinely don't understand how you think clone with echo is overpowered since you'll almost never hit all your spin attack and even then the damage reduction fucks you up tldr: trickster is not viable for anything other than quest(maybe WE) due to how the game is designed

[green bane]

...uh.

...we specifically made clones take multiple hits to disappear so they would have extra longevity due to their lower defensive effect and their attacking potential. That was the whole point of my message- it was RNG before and we just made it consistent...

[drowsy lily]

the website is wild

spell shade be doing 0 damage bars lol

[next heart]

i would like to ask if the design choice of 3x clones dealing more than 4 and 5 clones was intentional (with stronger clones)

for reference,

3x clones deal 2.2x
4x clones deal 2x
5x clones deal 2.1x

[green bane]

Xavier mathed that one out- the decision to make clones less RNG was done back when it was a flat reduction based on the ability as a whole rather than variable per amount of clones out.

You'd have to ask him

[dull scaffold]

I mean look at tricksters amazing range

[meager igloo]

range probably denotes aoe in this case but that's still hilarious bc acro is the only one with a ranged attack