Paladin's Problems

[dense glen]

I just thought I'd address all of Paladin's current problems and issues it faces, and put it in 1 thread. Let me know if I've missed anything

1 : Mantles

Mantles, do not benefit Paladin in any way and do not work well with other abilities.

The main problem is that they're often wasted on tiny hits that the Paladin could easily take without any issue. With so many bosses summoning minions and all these other spells that deal a lot of hits in a short time, you can barely even keep your mantles up for over 10s.

Another issue is that if you do want to get the most use out of mantles and have a 100% uptime, you'd want to get hit every 4s. However this does not work well with any of Paladin's other abilities. Manachism wants you to get hit as often as possible, Rejuvenating Skin heals more the more damage you take, Sparkling Hope wants you to take damage so you can heal to deal more dps.

Not to mention, Mantles work better on Fallen and Bmonk, compared to the Archetype its meant for

2 : Lack of active abilities

90% of Paladin's abilities are passive. This makes Paladin, possibly the most boring Archetype in the game to play.

Uppercut, War scream, Bash or Charge do not get changed in any way at all. This combined with the base forms of the spells being pretty horrible makes Paladin just incredibly lacklustre in every single way. The most notable ability Paladin has, is mantles which just fails to help Paladin in any way

3 : Everything being Thunder

Why does Paladin, the Archetype with the Fire Mastery have 1 Fire conversion in all of it's abilities?

The only Fire attack Paladin has, is Flaming Uppercut which is unlocked right after Fire Mastery. Fire is the defensive element in Wynn, so its always confused me why Paladin has so many Thunder conversions in all of it's attacks.

This just further makes Paladin, even worse. Giving it even less dps since all of it's attacks are a element that it doesn't work well with.

4 : Second Chance and Martyr

These 2 abilities, may be the worst possible ones for Paladin.

Paladin, already barely dies if you're using a remotely tanky build. Combine that with the fact that these 2 abilities only activate on death, just makes it so you'll only use it once a month.

And Martyr is even more stupid. It only activates when you die however, you're often the most tanky person in your team which means by the time it activates. All your allies are most likely already dead.

5 : Lack of Supportive abilities

Paladin is advertised as a "Support" archetype. Meanwhile it only has 1 supportive ability. That being Radiance.

Now to make this even worse. Most Bmonk players take Radiance, making one of the only reason to play Paladin, completely useless.

Oh and not to mention, Fallen has 2 supportive abilities ( Kind of )
Ragnarokkr and Armour Breaker

6 : Tanks not even being needed in Wynn

Pure Tanks are not needed in a single bit of content in Wynn
( Apart from wars but, who does wars )

If you even make your build remotely tanky, or have over 20k - 30k ehp, you'll be able to comfortably do any bit of content in the game, while still dealing a good amount of dps. Paladin, just goes over the top and sacrifices all of it's dps. And in return you're able to take more hits, which don't even matter since you won't even be able to do anything.

7 : Paladin's useless abilities

Paladin has so many useless abilities in it's tree. Look at Shield Strike for example. Its an effective 5k extra damage, every 20s. For 2 ap. Or look at Cleansing Breeze. The only time its useful is when you accidentally fall in lava in the molten heights.

8 : Sacred Surge

This is Paladin's main source of dps, and yet it fails at its only purpose. Sacred Surge just takes a decently long time to generate enough holy power for 1 or 2 spells, just for it to go away in 2 seconds. Combine that with the Thunder conversions and bosses that attack slowly, equals even more horrible dps.

9 : Aspects

Paladin's Aspects are well, not good and don't help at all.

The one good aspect that Paladin has is the Fabled Radiance one. Everything else either just does not do anything, or is just useless. Just take a look at the mythic aspect. It's better for Fallen or Bmonk compared to Paladin

( Theres a thread talking about the mythic aspect if you'd like more info on that )

10 : Healers

This is one of the main issues that Paladins face. The existence of healers ( Lightbenders )

Healers are just Paladins, but they're able to do decent dps and support others. I don't exactly know how to fix this issue but, its one of the main reasons why basically no one mains Paladin. Just the existance of healers makes Paladin useless. If there was something Paladin did thats notable, which healers can't do. Then it'd probably be a lot better

11 : Provoke

Provoke would be a pretty useful node, if it weren't for the fact that it never works. Some goes for Strobelight ( Taunt M'id ). It may just be certain mobs it bugs out for but, its still extremely unreliable and difficult to get much use out of

And it doesn't help when Taunt is just a 5x better Provoke in all situations

12 : Aoe Attacks

With so many bosses have attacks that target multiple people at once, its even more difficult to get use out of Paladin. Just look at Orphion's Sun attack or Tcc sword swipe. Sure you're able to tank them but it doesn't matter since you can't even do your job as the tank since those attacks will hit everyone no matter what

[dreamy geode]

4. paladins are used in wars because of this, except martyr doesnt want to be properly used, ever

6. wars are in fact, more popular now (at least in my sphere), so people do wars... but even there, tanks are only used for high difficulty wars

[cedar hound]

a good red node for paladin would be doing +1% spell and melee damage per 10 hp

or 100 idk

[dreamy geode]

otherwise, great feedback post

[cedar hound]

good post btw

[dense glen]

They are good in wars, however Wars are just so different compared to every single other bit of content in the game. Just because 1 certain ability is good in wars, doesn't exactly translate to it being very good. If there were more things like Wars in wynn, it'd probably be much more useful

[dreamy geode]

you would have ．．．300% spell damage with that

[dense glen]

Though I do understand that for wars in particular, it is pretty useful. That can't exactly be overlooked

[dreamy geode]

martyr is useless, pls rework

[dense glen]

Yes

Its extremely useless. I guarantee not a single person in the history of Wynn has had a certain moment where Martyr was useful

[dreamy geode]

also the fact that all damage redirect is locked behind guardian, cant there be more items with guardian mid? like, for progression

[wanton mulch]

wars r barely even done anymore with graids being introduced

like dude's hq has been up for 33 days or smth stupid 💀

[unique cove]

cold take martyr should be switched with brink of madness because martyr is more thematically fitting and more useful on full fallen than it is on paladin

[dense glen]

Oh and I forgot to add the fact that there's so many Aoe attacks that often just wipe out your allies

[dreamy geode]

ooor rework martyr

[dense glen]

And I forgot about provoke being broken. I'll add those two in now

[unique cove]

dev time 🤓

[wanton mulch]

if guardian didn't have guardian mid it would have been on the atree :3

[unique cove]

I'm being serious though - reworking paladin would take time so for the time being change two lines of code and switch the locations of brink and martyr

[wanton mulch]

some ideas like leadership have been suggested internally (in #1265241987771006976 ) but Dev time smth amth

[dreamy geode]

but that, doesnt fix anything

[dense glen]

Alright added in the Provoke part

[wanton mulch]

brink makes no sense on Paladin

[dreamy geode]

also provoke works now (except on bosses, should change that), but taunt being better provoke as always

[dense glen]

And Aoe attack part done

[dense glen]

It does?

[dreamy geode]

i made a paladin rework post in the forums, fixes half the points here

[dreamy geode]

yeah, i ran pure paladin in nol, works on every mob there

[dense glen]

I did a Paladin rework concept in the Public ct ability thread awhile ago, it mostly fixed all the problems

[halcyon oxide]

It's not a popular opinion but healers shouldn't be able to self heal

But they should have high health regen

[dense glen]

Oh thats pretty nice then

[halcyon oxide]

That would mostly fix paladins issues

[dense glen]

That'd honesty be pretty nice. Would balance things out but still wouldn't fix as much as you're thinking

[dreamy geode]

also for some reason taunt or provoke makes tna ignore me

[dense glen]

Paladin still just does not do well as a Archetype. With or without healers

[dense glen]

Provoke and Taunt never seem to work on greg for some reason

I keep spamming it on Greg but, he just always choses to go after that Archer thats 50 blocks away

Even though I'm like 1 block away from it

[hollow wedge]

Agree with everything but Summoner is definitely more boring. all it does is summom puppets automatically. you cant control them or move them or make them react to anything, they just spawn, stand still, theyre just little dps boosters. effigies also just do their own thing after being summoned. you cant do anything else as summoner. just cast more totems.

[dreamy geode]

in terms of easiest to hardest to change rn, changing paladin to use fire abilities would be nice

[dense glen]

At least you're able to do things

[dreamy geode]

bullwhip makes summons attack the target you want

[dense glen]

Paladin gameplay is use Bash and War scream every 16s

And just stand there

[hollow wedge]

doesnt paladin ignore bash's existence

[dense glen]

Radiance activates with Bash

[hollow wedge]

o

[dense glen]

Try playing Paladin for a day, you'll see how bad it is

[hollow wedge]

I've played paladin a lot

I found summoner to be worse

[dense glen]

You've experienced Hell like us I see

[hollow wedge]

indeed

[dense glen]

Fair enough, different people have different ideas on whats fun or not

[dreamy geode]

if only i couls share my second chance with my teammates

[hollow wedge]

although I've never really done stuff with a group, like raids or lootruns

[dense glen]

That'd honestly be a really good fix. If only it actually functioned like that

I wish Selvut's concept actually made it ingame ._.

[hollow wedge]

what if after defending a teammate from like 300% of their max hp worth of damage (total) and they are now at 25% hp or less, you could cast war scream and get them to full hp + reset cooldowns and give them temporary resistence

not those exact numbers but y'know

[dreamy geode]

how would you defend your teammates for that?

[dense glen]

That'd be interesting, but I don't know if thats possible to code

And would it only work if you had a Guardian?

[dreamy geode]

i can say, damage redistribution should be a node

[dense glen]

Yeah, making it exclusive to Guardian ( And raid buffs ) is a bit well

[hollow wedge]

giving them resistance buffs or provoking an enemy right before they attack the teammate. stuff like that

[dreamy geode]

like, alongside rejuvenating skin

[dense glen]

Not very good ._.

[dreamy geode]

i can smell the dev timw from here

[hollow wedge]

🗿

[dreamy geode]

how would you even code that... if dmg redistribution was a node maybe it could work

[hollow wedge]

yeah, it could go with an ability that sucks 30% of teammate hp loss to yourself

[dense glen]

I just think Second Chance working on allies would be better and more simple

[hollow wedge]

lifesteal, but deathsteal

[dreamy geode]

but the only other cooldown that matters (apart from second chance) is coursing restraints

i should link my paladin rework here: https://forums.wynncraft.com/threads/the-short-sweet-paladin-rework.318901

[dense glen]

[raw void]

would like to note that second chance already makes you invincible for two seconds (?)

[dense glen]

Ah ok

Its that little part where you go blind and the second chance text pops up on your screen right?

I just never activate it so I don't remember what it's like ._.

[raw void]

believe so
martyr, +1 second, the invincibility overlaps
I thought it would be nice on a build that goes full and then like tends to die
but it’s hard to take much else after going full

said this a lot but I don’t think sacred being reliant on other abilities to do 3-4x more damage is great

[dense glen]

Yeah, if it worked well on its own it'd be nice but. Since its so reliant on the other Archetype's abilities its just hard build around

You have to get Fireworks + Commet ( Uppercuts ) or Boiling blood ( Bash ) for every Paladin build if you want to still do something

[raw void]

boiling blood doesn’t work with surge anymore

[dense glen]

Still doesn't help that the base spells absolutely suck

[dense glen]

I know, its just a little bit of extra dps though

You're taking Ragnarokkr most of the time and often have 2 - 4 ap left over in most full Paladin trees

[raw void]

also it eats a surge charge if a spell is in progress
which isn’t intended like the hitting a group of enemies thing pre 2.1

[dense glen]

It does?

[native shale]

this ties in with the issue that archetype balancing is doodoo rn (trickster is kinda similar bc it's a garbage tank archetype, but also all of assassin is bad so it's more notmal)

[raw void]

say you bash and the first hit lands, and then you have 25% now from other abilities
the second hit will activate surge and spend it

[dense glen]

Trickster still at least can do its job ( kind of )

[native shale]

tricksters abilities contradict itself

[dense glen]

I thought they fixed bash consuming multiple ss charges

[native shale]

you get hit for cdr, and slay a clone for a big hit, but losing clones reduces total damage

[raw void]

surge had more stuff planned for it so this is pretty temporary, hopefully
though I still don’t like that very much

[raw void]

they did, it just spends surge if the spell in progress doesn’t have it and you happen to gain enough for surge in the time before it finished

[dense glen]

Yeah, it was supposed to be a bandaid to help Paladin until Xavier gets more time

[dense glen]

Ah ok

[raw void]

not sure if flaming uppercut not starting until all hits of uppercut finish is fixed yet
the aspect makes it work okay?

[wise finch]

Great post! I would add that radiance is too easily acessivle to bmonk as well

[dense glen]

[hollow wedge]

why is the image of rank shaman there and not a paladin

[carmine chasm]

well they do have plans on reworking paladin here #1265241987771006976 message

but it been quite a while now with no change

other than that i agree with the post, but dont revmoe second chance, its a grea ability for new players and hic players

[sweet hinge]

Did you read the disclaimer in the pins?

[carmine chasm]

That's why I said 'plans'

[sweet hinge]

Well, you also said it's been a while with no change, when it's clearly also stated that change was never going to come quick.

Like...of course it's been a while with no change, you were warned that it would be that way.

[carmine chasm]

Well i meant any change, should've clarified my bad

As far as I've noticed, there are no big changes to paladin since it was released 2 years ago

[sweet hinge]

sacred surge getting added is about it

[carmine chasm]

i thought it was there since the start lol, having sacred surge in paladin is definitely better than not having it tho

[wanton mulch]

burning heart :(

[dense glen]

It shall be missed

[lunar drum]

burning heart getting removed nerfed my dreadnought paladin guard build from 75k dps to 35k dps

sacred surge scaling off of mostly thunder has ruined a whole lot

[lunar drum]

that build was peak guard for me, 125k ehp, has strobelight, very mobile, uses infernal impulse to support and self sustain, 75-100k single target dps, enough mpr to sustain 3 spells per second

[wanton mulch]

me too buh 😢 combat guardian was so real

I had like reasonable bash surf dps at that time

[lunar drum]

funniest thing is lightbenders can still get more value than this

[wise finch]

and the removal of my beloved burning heart...

[wise finch]

WE SHALL NEVER FORGET BURNING HEART 😭

[solemn harness]

listen all im saying is that half of these useless things youve listed are really good in an extremely niche circumstance that three to five players will experience probably ever

actually even more than half its like 2/3 of the points

i love hunted mode

[carmine chasm]

second chance and mantle is pretty good yeah

i feel like mantle should be optional instead tho ngl, maybe paladin players have to choose between mantle and another new red ability, since mantle kinda ruins the point of other passive abilities

[solemn harness]

honestly idk at this point lol

[wise finch]

mantle si great for non paladins

[carmine chasm]

yeah thats basically the only use lol

[wise finch]

which is really weird

[carmine chasm]

well theres a lot of passive abilities in paladin that relies on taking damage

[wise finch]

yeah, its contradictory

[carmine chasm]

exactly

[dreamy geode]

Paladin is too passive, and they mostly rely on gear rather than skill. The only skill expression you have as paladin is using rally, using cleansing breeze, getting aggro of mobs and charging powders (compared to the other's archetypes that have more aspects). Paladin is like riftwalker, a first red node everyone wants, a third red node that nobody wants, and its borderline useless, even the air mastery is part of bmonk (center archetype) instead of paladin, (all other center archetypes only have 1 mastery), so pure paladin is only used for wars (hi)

[wise finch]

even cleansing breeze is meh, it doesn't clear Greg -healing eff for example

[sweet hinge]

that's not a status effect that's an ID being added

if it cleared added IDs it'd clear raid buffs and radiance

and I don't think anyone wants that

[wise finch]

isn't it the same thing? If a enemy gives me slowness/weakness are IDs no?

[sweet hinge]

nope

[wise finch]

cleasing breath remove those

[sweet hinge]

they are distinct and discrete effects. slowness and weakness are not adding IDs

slowness isn't adding negative walk speed, weakness isn't adding negative damage

[wise finch]

maybe change the wording them, negative effects is too broad

@sweet hinge

[sweet hinge]

@wise finch

[hollow wedge]

@wise finch @sweet hinge

[wise finch]

yes?

[timber axle]

Very balanced

[cedar hound]

i said good not balanced

[dense glen]

Which points exactly?

[pseudo timber]

Paladin is soooo bad, that Warrior is esentially only 2/3rds of other classes.