#Nuclear Emesis Feedback

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

half thicket
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I've been using nuclear emesis for almost two weeks now on grandmother trapper and I believe I am able to give a proper analysis as well as feedback on the helmet.

First, stats, while I did not see the point of its recent nerf, I believe its identifications fit very well and fit into its typical playstyle. I do see a discrepancy on it not having a fire damage stat, but that could very well be for balancing purposes.

Next, its major id, napalm. This major id's concept is great, the way the arrow is launched differently makes all the traps and bombs be more condense, actually feeling like you are actually spraying hellfire with napalm. I also like how it utilizes fire creep, but while its damage is increased, the main source of damage is arrow bomb by far, which isn't surprising. Arrow bomb also has increased damage with the major id, and while its noticeable, its mainly the grape bombs and other projectiles that are more condensed from the major id that make it more powerful, so id be nice that grape bomb and maybe even traps get a slight dmg increase, but that could alter its balance drastically with aspects. This leads me to the part of the napalm I can confidently disagree with though, self-damage, which I believe deserves its own section.

Napalm due to its benefits, has downsides like reduced range of arrow bomb and you being required to take fire creep to get the major id's effects, but that might be an advantage to its biggest downside, recoil. Napalms self-damage from arrow bomb is to put it lightly, incredibly penalizing. The self damage caused by napalm can reach over 10000 damage(ehp makes this less) with strong enough gear and weapons, with abilities like rocket jump being overridden due to its code. Napalm also ignores elemental defenses unlike normal recoil, which makes the damage always an issue if using high damage bows. While when taking into account ehp with grandmother, you can expect to take 4000 damage if you take the blunt of the hit. This is already detrimental, but it gets even more so when taking into account bouncing bomb, which can make you lose over half of your health on average without aspects. while you can avoid it, boucing bomb can be random when dealing with slabs and other environmental factors with enemies being suspect to this as well. If anything should be changed about the major id it is the self-damage, with the amount of damage done needing significant reductions.

While the major id is strong, it has many downsides already, and the self damage alone is more than enough when you are required to use two ability points just to access the ability. I love nuclear emesis, but even I know it needs some changes to really make its mark, even if popular already.

Hope this made sense, thanks for reading!

twilit wasp
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i thought it is wisedrag

half thicket
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ill take that as a compliment!

half thicket
balmy sierra
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i was pretty dissapointed when i found out that napalm overrides rocket jump

normal kite
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I love napalm

half thicket
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Same! Its just annoying though with the self damage being so punishing

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I really hope there is a decrease to the recoil damage though, cause the amount it was increased by is quite drastic.

normal kite
half thicket
normal kite
half thicket
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Ah I thought fallout was better for that

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I need to test that next

normal kite
half thicket
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It must be over 5 times it’s recoil

normal kite
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Yeah

warm shuttle
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I do agree, napalm self damage should not take priority over the rocket jump damage mitigation or even the laby damage mitigation

zenith sage
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I've never noticed a huge amount of self damage from napalm, particularly to the point of dealing half my ehp
then again, my build has almost 60k ehp, so that may play a part.

half thicket
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Yeah the damage can vary depending on builds, on the standard grandmother trapper build(which has around 30k ehp) you can take over half of your health and even more with the bouncing bomb aspect. Its main playstyle utilizes high damage up-close aoe, which can be extremely dangerous whenever using high damage builds it seems to synergize with

half thicket
knotty quartz
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but isn’t the self damage kind of nice to have for rage abuse :?

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at least i assume you’d intentionally proc it a bit on gma

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also the item was nerfed a little cuz 16sp 5khp w/ offensive ids/strong mid was just a bit too all around good

half thicket
# knotty quartz i can take a look at how the self damage on it is coded actually

That’d be really nice actually! For rage abuse it can be useful for needing rage asap, but there are other ways that seem to be as good and more reliable than self damage from arrow bomb, such as escape fall damage, since arrow bomb, especially with the behavior of bouncing bomb you can sometimes take 1/4 of what you expect then get hit for the full amount the next time.

knotty quartz
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yea fair

half thicket
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It feels like you are always taking a gamble whenever using napalm, and even though you can mitigate the risk to an extent, there is always a possibility of danger whenever factors beyond your control are amoung them (maze room in Tcc for example)

knotty quartz
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im ngl i feel like that just comes with using the item in close combat

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i think taking the whole explode urself risk outta the mid gives a bit too much qol to trapper which is already insane rn

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but it still self damaging thru rjump and ele defs i don’t like that much so ill see

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i’ll probably test some stuff later

half thicket
# knotty quartz im ngl i feel like that just comes with using the item in close combat

I that is true, but the nature of the napalm makes this always a problem. Like you can stand back; however, when you need to be closer, losing thousands of hp(depending on build) seems harsh when it already has downsides like requiring 2 skill points to be activated and losing around 10 times its range. Should you not be punished for it, I don’t believe so, but as it is now people are starting to avoid fire creep just to not deal with the large self damage. It’s a touchy subject I suppose, but for the builds that are focused more on dps it seems more extreme than it should. Thank you for taking the time to look into it though!

knotty quartz
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okay yeah i see the issues

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i’ll. do something. lol

half thicket
half thicket
knotty quartz
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okay i’ve made a few changes, they’ll be in changelog whenever it’s implemented ingame

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rocket jump should successfully null (nearly) self damage but it’ll still be there if you don’t have it, was an issue of how it was being calculated

half thicket
knotty quartz
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:D

warm shuttle
knotty quartz
warm shuttle
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i assumed "bomb effects are weakened" on the major id is what this was

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as there are no other number changes to the actual bomb, only for traps

knotty quartz
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lmfao that’s so odd

knotty quartz
warm shuttle
knotty quartz
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well. unless something changes between now and then

pastel relic
# knotty quartz the major id actually doesn’t seem to negate self damage lol

You are in fact correct, labys major id does nothing about self damage, most laby builds just have a shit ton of earth and fire def (usually from crabs/mantlewalkers lol) and bomb self damage doesn’t overpower it. You can see this rly easily if you powder laby with like w6 or a6 and suddenly it damages you again

warm shuttle
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Yea that might actually be the case

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then what is the "bomb effects are weakened" in the laby referring to? The only weakening done here is to traps

balmy sierra
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Bomb damage is weakened tho

half thicket
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I see that the change was put in, it feels so much better now!

somber dagger
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Why do I do 0 damage to myself after the nuke update kek

half thicket
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There was a miscalculation in how the self damage was done so it didn’t take into account ele defenses

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Or rocket jump

somber dagger
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but, now it doesnt even tickle

half thicket
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Wait let me do some testing

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I just learned it got in

somber dagger
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Not elusive

half thicket
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Interesting, how much does it do without fire creep?

somber dagger
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Lemme reset tree and test

wheat pumice
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im taking like 40 damage with gma per bomb

somber dagger
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I can't tell if this is a bug or a feature

half thicket
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I take little to no damage from my earth defense, but it does do damage on other elemental bows

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It’s most likely the ele defenses

wheat pumice
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ye

somber dagger
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huh, didn't think ele defences would nullify damages entirely to the point of no screen shake or damage

half thicket
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With Divzer I take like 2 thousand dmg

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If using gma gear

wheat pumice
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i take like 400 with my water powdered lq bow

somber dagger
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Probably just laby being laby then

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Before the nuclear emesis change I took about 3k damage

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but since i didnt apply scorched earth i guess the ID doesnt work at all

half thicket
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I mean with bouncing bomb aspects gma would lose over half of hp at points skull it depends on how much ehp one has also

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Wait no it requires scorched earth now

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This is with the changes, no rocket jump, ig elemental defenses are still not affected by napalm

zenith sage
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...?
why does it specify unlocking it?

image.png
half thicket
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First things I’ve noticed:

3 ability points needed now (actually 6 minimum to actually reach scorched earth and get rocket jump)

Fire creep compared to before is significantly bigger in scope, with it seeming to be 3-5 times its original size making its aoe much more formidable, however I can assume this may cause performance issues

Without rocket jump the self damage is excessive on certain builds due to it being unaffected by ele defenses.

Current opinion as of today:
While scorched earth fits a lot with the major id, i feel like it shouldn’t be forced due to its inconvenient placement on the tree, making the reward much being much more strenuous to obtain. A route that could be interesting is making scorched earth be passively
Given instead of as a prerequisite, similarly to other major ids like bloodborne or tremocaller( I can’t recall which)

I’m going to try it in a couple of raids to see how it feels

somber dagger
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It's not ideal for laby anymore I don't think, scorched earth is too far out the way

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Personally, I don't like this change

half thicket
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I agree, the scorched earth makes getting the major id deterring

zenith sage
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wouldn't mind having scorched earth and rocket jump swap places
of course, besides the major ID change, rocket jump works much better for sharpshooter, when you have a single, predictable bomb
and scorched earth plays more into the area control that trapper has than sharpshooter

wheat pumice
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as for the change, it's great

half thicket
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It screws over playstyles though :P needing 6 ability points just to function is overboard

half thicket
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The investment does not out weigh the reward, you lose almost all summons from it, to get napalm to function and use recycling on trapper you’d only have one ability point to spare, skipping refined gun and windy feet and instead taking a taking air or thunder mastery with double shots, with that last ability point going to rocket Jump 9 times out out of time due to it being the only way of reducing the bomb recoil that can one shot you with enough aspects(depending on build but it can be done with 30k ehp gma). If you would like more ability points you can skip hound and just do grappling hook, which can cause problems in multiple ways, even if rocket jump can be used. Overall this makes builds that use napalm do less damage than before while restricting how you can use it, especially on the archetype that seems built for it (trapper even if scorched earth is sharpshooter)

humble storm
wheat pumice
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idk i use this so the change only buffed my ass

knotty quartz
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i’ll read the feedback from recent change in a bit. it wasn’t actually supposed to go ingame yet btw, i was very much still testing different stuff

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but uhhh yeah we’ll see lol

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needing mamba for builds that don’t use it would be too much/make it not worth using i agree

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but also just not using refined i think is fine?

spiral forge
knotty quartz
spiral forge
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It doesn't really affect any casting, it's just reduces visibility of the mobs lol

knotty quartz
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i see lmfao

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i did test it solely in f5 i think

spiral forge
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Should switch to that, too used to playing in first person

knotty quartz
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though it seems like it’s still possible to get everything including rjump assuming you forego windy (and don’t take cheaper bomb 2)

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i… am not sure that i dislike it if im being real

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my question is more does having to build slightly more sustain or whatever else to counteract the pretty objective nerf make the helmet not worth using compared to other options

knotty quartz
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hmmm

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ok yeah i’ll mess w stuff a bit more lol

knotty quartz
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i think what i want to do is make it so scorched earth is needed to unlock the crazy fire creep & keep it at the same super big radius & make the arrow bomb stuff only require fire creep

zenith sage
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do remind me one more time what Crazy Fire Creep is in the context of napalm

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I continuously forget the exact stats

half thicket
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With increased damage

knotty quartz
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you can have like 2-3 of these at once w increased dmg

zenith sage
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well
I understand the concept
but I keep forgetting the exact numbers

half thicket
zenith sage
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what was it, +40% damage +3 range?

knotty quartz
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ermmm i never told anyone the numbers exactly so :3 gl

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it was . changed in my testing

zenith sage
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anyway back to playing with the absurdities of the archer tree
today: shocking bomb trapper

knotty quartz
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moment

half thicket
zenith sage
half thicket
knotty quartz
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should be fine

balmy sierra
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30 cost is fine on a blank build

humble storm
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which is fine for boss but you become more useless in rooms the less sustain you have on normal enemies

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anyways ill try both trees out tmr on tcc ig assuming aspects arent complete dogshit

balmy sierra
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Ive ran etf and not ran into issues even with such a high base cost 😅

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(I literally never take last bomb cost upgrade)

humble storm
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i mean i can prob make do without given how my mana looks rn

balmy sierra
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Also did i read they buffed the size of fire creep?

humble storm
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but my emesis is -1 bomb cost 😦

humble storm
balmy sierra
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Right so it wasnt buffed, it was already large so i would be suprised

humble storm
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anyways if they destroy emesis further laby can always make do without

balmy sierra
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Its sometimes quite nice not having such slow bombs

humble storm
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and recoil dmg