#Lutho LR isn’t balanced very well especially for archer

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

errant forge
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Bru

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The auto censor that deletes posts is annoying

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Fine even shorter tldr. Some camps have way to high dmg, way too high health, spawn way to many dude, camps are way too small for archer, spawn positions of most camps specifically screw over archer way more as no matter where you stand you’ll have something spawn behind you and mess ur day up

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Video link to footage of what I’m talking about and my opinion live reaction

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  • side notes slime blocks/ other blocks that mess up your movement should not be spammed around caves. It’s already so frustrating kiting around small areas, getting block glitched while doing so makes it 1000x more awful
gusty saffron
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Archer is just not good at LRing in general, not Lutho specific, I'd say Archer has it worse in Sky even

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Also Arrow Shield for the "spawn behind you" part. You can get it on Bolt pretty easily, and every other archetype will just have it by default. Doesn't solve the other issues Archer has in LRs but yea

errant forge
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I’m still experimenting with other camps still just wanted to get the word out there more. (Imo every single archtype should be viable for lring not hyper specific meta builds)

gusty saffron
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It's a known issue with Archer

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It's a semi-common thing for someone to question your sanity if you LR on Archer

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LR's design just doesn't jive well with Archer's design outside of Trapper kind of but even then it still has issues

errant forge
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I feel similar about summoner for shaman. I wish the game wasn’t just be warrior or get fucked

long solar
gusty saffron
errant forge
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(Btw footage shows me being trapper)

gusty saffron
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Apparently Shaman is awesome in 2.1, and Mage has always been good for LRs

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And I've seen Trickrobat Assassin LRing as well and they don't seem to hate themselves as much as Archer Lootrunners

long solar
errant forge
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I’ve recorded other classes and archetypes on my YouTube imo archer has no viable archtype. Shaman has 1 maybe 2 viable builds, warrior is meta, I hold assassin and mage in the same page pretty good not as good as warrior

long solar
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tricko lrs definitely hate themselves more than archer lrs

gusty saffron
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I just assumed it was Trickro because I've heard bad stuff about pure Acro

long solar
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they are very much not the same, i guarantee it was acro

gusty saffron
errant forge
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Anyways back to my opinion main problem. Lr camps are just way to fucking small (if you watch the video you’ll understand what I’m talking about)

errant forge
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There is a core issue with LR if an entire class practically can’t do it (imo)

errant forge
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(I forgot to say this) another huge problem I have with LR currently is the way they “fixed” lr cheese is just adding a ton of “forced dmg” in my opinion that is an awful way to design lrs, it already felt like a stats race but this fully cements lring to the stat race mentality so of course the class with best base stats (warrior 120% defense + all the other crazy shit they get) or course warrior will be the only thing “meta” it’s just super lame in my opinion

errant forge
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Ya after trying to do 2 more lutho lrs on different classes it really sucks how warrior is the only viable. Lutho use to be my favorite camp but it’s just so fucked up with its extremely small camps and over bad design (imo)

gusty saffron
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Lutho scales too high too quickly, most people don’t run Lutho because of that, whether you’re a Warrior, or any other class

errant forge
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Ya my mage that I could pretty effortlessly 100/100 was getting FUCKED by challange 70. I wish the people who dealt with LRing would actually respond to these kind of threads. It feels like lutho has been fucked for months now

errant forge
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(I’ve been a bit excessive in my language but idk it’s frustrating to have lring in the state it’s in imo)

tepid moss
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Every class shouldn’t be good at everything…

novel garnet
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Indeed. There should be benefits and drawbacks to each class. Lootrunning happens to be archer's point of weakness.

errant forge
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That doesn’t mean entirely classes and archetypes should be unviable

errant forge
novel garnet
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It's not that archer can't lootrun. Comparatively, it's just the worst class for lootrunning.

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Simulateously, I would argue that it is the best class for raiding. These benefits and drawbacks keep the game balanced.

tepid moss
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You are, its just harder as you mentioned, and when you got your 1st class you can just powerlevel a warrior in a day

errant forge
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Please actually watch the footage because I disagree archer is literally unplayable for lrs

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Archer being good at one thing (raids) doesn’t justify it being dog water in other content

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(It’s only bad because they force you to fight within a 8 block radius on some camps like come on stop defending this garbage design with “well archer should be bad” to me it sounds extremely stupid)

idle raptor
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@errant forge Thank you for sharing your feedback.

I understand your frustration, but let's take a moment to recognize your use of hyperbole. Describing Archer LR as "literally unplayable" is an exaggeration, considering you have uploaded videos of lootrunning as an Archer, as have many others. A more accurate term might be "suboptimal," which is a known issue with the concept of lootrunning.

Lootrunning challenges are designed with specific constraints in mind, such as limited space in some challenges. For instance, the Exiled Garden challenge features a small area where relatively few mobs spawn, but these mobs have higher stats to balance. Conversely, the Entombed Elementals challenge in MH provides a larger area, allowing for more mobs with lower stats.

Archer, by design, struggles with close-quarter combat. This is an inherent aspect of having a class system with distinct skill sets, where some classes excel in certain activities while others do not. Although this can limit variety, it also highlights the unique strengths and weaknesses of each class. For example, while Archer may not be optimal for some lootrun challenges, it can excel in other situations, such as raids, as someone else has mentioned above.

Additionally, I would like to mention that lootrun anti-camp measures have been updated in 2.1. These measures now only activate when players are actively camping in areas that mobs cannot reach, rather than just being too high up. This change will benefit Archers in some ways, such as with Crepuscular Ray, which will no longer trigger anti-camp.

In summary, while Archer may not be the best choice for some loot run challenges, particularly those with smaller arenas, this is a trade-off inherent to the Wynn class system. Each class has its strengths and weaknesses, and while some activities may favor certain classes, others will shine in different scenarios.

Thank you for your continued engagement and feedback.

Best regards,
Tealy

errant forge
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I truely think the first clip shows that camp is not possible for archer

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I’ve failed 4 runs at the camp trying to test things for archer

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It’s just too small. Why force players to be stuck in such small arena in lr camps it just makes trash Qol when lring

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Then you’ll have other camps that are like 50+ block in radius where you can stand afk on the other side and the range guys will ignore you

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Truly id love to see any footage/ evidence of recent archer game play where they got 100/100 at lutho

idle raptor
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Could I ask what build you were using? You seem to be struggling more with damage output than avoiding the mobs, you're circlestrafing the destroy objective for like 3 minutes straight.

errant forge
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2 sec

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Focused around briar embrace (in trying my hardest to make non mythic builds so newer players can feel comfortable lring my goal is to have a build for every archetype but it’s hard dude)

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But I’m cooking up over 100% air and 100% earth just for this bow to be so crappy omg

idle raptor
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a noble cause, but maybe this one could go back in the oven for a bit? At least in SE, it definitely helps to be able to burst things down a little quicker

errant forge
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  • I had not only orphian grace. I had a huge crit boon and 600% dmg boon
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Like come on at challanges 15. It’s crazy that’s not enough

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On my warrior build I don’t even need a single boon till maybe 20ish

idle raptor
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regardless though I do appreciate your feedback and I do agree on some level, it'd be nice for classes like archer to have a bit more viability in lootruns. I'm currently working on the COTL lootrun for 2.1, if you have beta access I'd like your feedback on that, maybe I could expand arena sizes a bit?

errant forge
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Fuck I’m gonna have to lr on beta again….

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I’ll try to get to it tomorrow. I appreciate you listening to my opinions

idle raptor
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Of course, thank you for giving your feedback like

pearl sigil
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SE camp is tough, and using briars embrace (suboptimal coz only single target dmg) will do that for you

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Im sure u could lr rodo and corkus on that tho

errant forge
idle raptor
errant forge
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❤️

meager mango
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I have lots of options

errant forge
# idle raptor regardless though I do appreciate your feedback and I do agree on some level, it...

Sorry but I won’t be lring on hero beta. I think it’s extremely stupid you have to unlock the caves before being able to lr. It’s a waste of an hour just to go to Sam’s exact caves 10 minutes later. Having to do the same exact caves 5 times to unlock it on all my 105 classes is so annoying to me and often makes it so I only want to lr on one class (not to mention I go waste my time unlocking it on hero beta only for t ur update to be released and I have to do the same bullshit all over again)

idle raptor
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Okay no worries 👍

errant forge
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Also (imo) I hate how awful scaling is on lrs. If you don’t have a high base dmg weapon it’s just impossible to 100/100 anything. Wasted a whole nother hour on brior embrace in corkus and literally even with equalibrium you just get out scaled infinity faster because brior embrace isn’t a “slow attack” weapon with high base dmg. I fundamentally think how you guys handle scaling just kinda sucks

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The whole “stat race” of boons and curses sucks and I’ll continue to repeat I think it’s just a bad system

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There is so much “forced dmg” it just doesn’t feel fun

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There is practically zero room to “out play” or maneuver in any camps unless you are a class that can fly. Then it’s just boring let me sit just far enough above these mobs to hit them but not to trigger the anti cheese

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I think camps just being “small” makes for awful gameplay

idle raptor
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Its not for everyone, Id like to work on some more repeatable content that players can do for loot one day👀 we will see what the future holds

pearl sigil
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spell dmg is tied to weapon's dps not main attack

errant forge
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I was one of the people begging for no mission cap

errant forge
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Actually I take that back. Hero and brior embrace have the same “dps” why is brior so trash at scaling with dmg boons?

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(I wanted to double check to see if I was wrong)

pearl sigil
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hard for me to say without playing. i can point out that in the video you sent you underutilized traps and bouncing bomb, leading you to only be dealing single target damage with exception of bryophyte rooots

errant forge
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Dude traps are impossible to set up when you have no room

pearl sigil
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bouncing a bomb off the floor into your enemy is like 750% dmg in aoe

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without grape

errant forge
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Watch the footage again I bomb arrow like you say as much as I can

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Imo that camp just sucks. Trapper who is “good” as going aoe dmg can’t clear the waves of mobs fast enough to target the single target thing is crazy to me. They spawn way to many dude and the heath is way to high

pearl sigil
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i have rewatched some of the footage and i stand by my point. you dont even have full crows out

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camp does suck, but there are improvements on your end to be made as well

errant forge
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If there was actually space to set up I would have crows but again there is absolutely no space in the camp and once you get “swarmed” there’s no time to “take a break” or anything. You see im pushed to the absolute limit on my mana and dmg just to try to get space to drink a health pot

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Then I get on my warrior hero build and I don’t need a single boon till challange 20 and still MELT these camps in less than 7 seconds

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I just don’t think it’s balanced well

wild dagger
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yo @errant forge I looked at your footage and Imma say a couple things

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archer is just ass for every lootrun and trapper is the only slightly viable archetype it has and your not using it

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archer has insufficient aoe and hp for lrs so that's your first

pearl sigil
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uhm actually hmelee archer is very good for lr 🤓

wild dagger
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your build as well lacks mana regen which is part of the reason you do no damage, as you can't attack quickly at all, and even with that you're not attacking fast enough mainly I see since you;re trying to not die, but that's just a weakness of archer and your build

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your build is also outadted supposed to be used for full rage so it actually does damage, so it is certainly not viable for lring

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honestly just use another class, and if you really want to use archer use rainbow trapper and don't complain if it sucks

errant forge
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Build was changed off of earth powders since melee doesn’t scale with boons well changed to air

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If you look at my YouTube channel I lr on multiple classes. I want to push the boundaries for the lr meta but there are problems with how lring is fundamentally designed that keep classes/archtyped from being even close to usable

wild dagger
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if you're trying to do significant melee damage in a lootrun you've already lost

wild dagger
thorn flower
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i'm gonna be real i think the issue here is just a build issue, and skill issue (no offense)

wild dagger
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not every archetype or even class can be good at lootrunning

errant forge
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Closier link me a 100/100 archer lutho lr and I’ll agree ☺️

thorn flower
wild dagger
thorn flower
errant forge
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I dislike the idea of an entire class just not being able to lr just because the camps are designed in ways that makes aoe classes on top

wild dagger
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  • lutho is the hardest lootrun with the strongest enemies with the lowest amount of space archer just isn't going to work
wild dagger
pearl sigil
errant forge
wild dagger
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you just have to accept ur build is bad, ur not playing optimally, archer is the worst lr class, and you're playing the hardest lr, which also disadvantages archer

wild dagger
errant forge
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I’ll link it again but if 200% earth dmg and 150% air isn’t good enough for brior embrace then they bow needs to be looked at

wild dagger
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with this amount of a disadvantage idk why ur not using an archer mythic asw they're not exactly expensive are they

jade rivet
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Bro what the fuck is that build

errant forge
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I wanted to “try” to make a non mythic build (failed cause the boots) then I just wanted to make it focused around the MID and it’s summons

thorn flower
errant forge
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Closier please try to be nicer

jade rivet
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What is this post? its like trying to make archer a tank in wars and saying "I hate the fact that archer can't be used in war"

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Make a better build and run it back, if you're struggling, run the easier camps

errant forge
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Watch the footage you’ll understand the issues I’m talking about in this thread

jade rivet
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Brother, if you're somehow managing to do less damage than my guard lootrun build, there's something wrong

errant forge
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Ya, that’s kinda the point

jade rivet
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Make a better build

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Use a mythic

errant forge
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That’s kinda a whole problem I’m trying to talk about

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Mythics shouldn’t be the only viable way to lr

jade rivet
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What? Trying to do the hardest lr in the game without good gear? Whats the point?

errant forge
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The point is I’m making an entire build around and “end game” fable that specifically focuses on the MID jt gives and even with over 350% elemental bonuses it’s still dog water

thorn flower
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you're just ass bro i don't know how to be nicer about this

jade rivet
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Heres my tip: Run easier LR camp, make some money and buy mythics

errant forge
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Kurt I have a hero I have other builds. I just think it’s super lame how hard lutho is

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I think it’s mostly “hard” cause of the way camps are designed to be super small and awful

jade rivet
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Like listen, if you play the game and do quests, you can get enough LE to buy your first mythic. Just do that? Lutho isn't even as hard it was before

wild dagger
thorn flower
errant forge
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Do I have to link my 10 other videos where I 100/100 lutho on my hero Jesus fuck

jade rivet
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bro i can do it with rots

wild dagger
errant forge
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I’m talking about the perspective from archer from someone who doesn’t want to have to use mythics. Lutho is almost unplayable to lr. I think that is an issue

jade rivet
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That is just not true

wild dagger
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you're just wrong buddy

thorn flower
errant forge
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Kk show me where I’m wrong I’d love to see any footage of archers 100/100 lutho

jade rivet
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Brother, theres no one going to record footage of 100/100 archer

wild dagger
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yeah because no one uses it because its bad

jade rivet
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Run rainbow build with decent mana regen

errant forge
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Y’all are impossible please re read your statements/ arguments and genuinely put thought to this more than “bad build bad opinions”

wild dagger
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so ur point is invalid

thorn flower
errant forge
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If you can’t find any archer gameplay at all, maybe there is a reason to that, that maybe should be addressed

errant forge
jade rivet
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you are delusional

pearl sigil
errant forge
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Even watching pun video half the camps he has to cheese in some way (no offense) and he only gets to challange 40 (prob by choice long runs on archer seems like hell)

pearl sigil
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im not sure what you are trying to achieve here, if you want to lootrun with archer i feel like you have been given sufficient info on how

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go into blues builds for a briars build for lr

errant forge
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(I want the idea lring should be viable for every single archtype) (I wanted how small some camps are to be addressed) (I wanted to not deal with brain dead monkeys says just lr on warrior)

pearl sigil
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i would record a lr video for u but i dont like playing spell

errant forge
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But you have to since melee just gets scaled out cause of the flawed boon system

pearl sigil
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that said, while trying to get heavy melee footage i had to skip 4 runs coz i kept getting equillibrium and going 100 ch

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and i wanted footage of a mediocre run and dealing with meh rng

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melee scales fine, %ele is the same as %main

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equi runs do dissolve into me spamming bomb arrow shield

errant forge
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I have a whole hour of footage of brior embrace being shit scaling even though I have equalibrium. (Imo that why I feel strongly about this literally any build should be able to lr with equilibrium + orphion grace)

pearl sigil
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you are neglecting many factors which all have been mentioned

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spell builds need to be able to spam their best spell in most cases

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for trapper thats bomb, which you cast once in a blue moon

errant forge
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I am not understanding how the build is “shit” I’m doing the best I can with this trash bow and MID. Again how it’s almost 200% earth bonus trash

errant forge
pearl sigil
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that happens sometimes when there is no cleansing ritual/inner peace to give you a slight edge over curses

errant forge
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Let me clip the footage so I’m not talking out of my ass

pearl sigil
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for the first 30ish curses equi is outscaled by mobs in most cases

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and then starts to creep up

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tree is a bit funny, blue really likes focus on trapper

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feel free to change

errant forge
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Tree doesn’t have guardian angles. Tree has bouncing bomb and focus. Imo ( this is dumb) build has 40% earth dmg conpaired to mine that is 180% and has no reflection so range mobs just screw you (I don’t understand how this build is “better” expect you get baited by focus dmg numbers that won’t be practical while lring. (I mean this in the nicest way possible I don’t understand how this build is “better” than the one I got from a “private builder”)

pearl sigil
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this build has 2x sustain

errant forge
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(We want guardian angles cause of the MID)

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The difference in sustaine is a single defense boon

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? (Even with my build there are open skill points you can put in def if you want)

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Build has 78 free skill points to be moved around

pearl sigil
errant forge
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I find putting more into intelligent makes dmg much higher

pearl sigil
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angels are kinda ass, i dont think they are even affected by MID

errant forge
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(I was wondering about that but Wynn doesn’t like to give details about things so it’s hard to test)

pearl sigil
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oh yeah, get cheaper arrow bomb 2 as well

errant forge
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(The angels are ass I agree but it’s the “theme” of the build)

tepid moss
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This kinda devolved into an archer lootrun thread, and while i said what i had to on this, the main topic is lutho lootruns difficulty, and i do have to agree they’re way harder than sky molten or corkus in pure damage taken and ennemy health, especially in 2.1, the easiest fix isbreducing dmg gain and hp gain to the same as other camps.

Reworkign every challenge stats isnt the way for now (devtime)

pearl sigil
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Lootruns are rigged to have the best lootpool be rodo, so its ok like

gusty saffron
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It’s either Rodo or Lutho 5 weeks in a row no inbetween

novel garnet
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I don't believe this difference is statistically significant and we're likely inserting a trend where none exist.

green aurora
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agree archer is shit so just switch off and begin to love yourself again

gusty saffron