Boltslinger/Overall archer tree

[modern spire]

he was joking that every arrow from that ability triggers recycling no matter what so you just get a shit ton of mana guaranteed

[feral gyro]

imagine boltslinger with focus

[red crow]

phantom ray blocking half the boltslinger stuff is so sad

[feral gyro]

it's also a direct requirement for focus

it is not explicitly said to be a requirement but it is a requirement which is quite disgusting imo
it'd be fun if arrow storm could be more like a shotgun with tight-spread and you are rewarded for landing hits and not taking risky shots

anyways I think it sucks that many of the upgrades in boltslinger are just for directly increasing single target damage output
I have a feeling storm flight was not intended at first and was only a technique created by players

also isn't it a problem to just spawn so many arrows and cloud the vision

[stable agate]

Shotgun with tight spread you say? looks at sad Nighthawk in the corner

[feral gyro]

why gate abilities behind major id's

[stable agate]

Also I don’t think it was I showed a CT friend Bolt flying when 2.0 first released and they were like “What the hell”

[stable agate]

Oh yea for sure I just thought it was funny that Nighthawk turned into precision shotgun because Sharpshooter took it’s original gimmic

[feral gyro]

I have a feeling it isn't intended when acrobat is a thing

it actually has substantial abilities that lets you maintain "flightt"

[red crow]

yeah exactly, imagine if u could just grab focus and go nighthawk

[modern spire]

It wasn’t intended, but it seems like something they want to keep because it’s not game-breaking, requires skill, and is overall a cool concept

[stable agate]

But outside of removing recoil Bolt flying will always be a thing and it adds a cool layer to Archer mobility so it’s neat

[red crow]

like i dont want phantom ray, why is it forced

[feral gyro]

the worst thing about it is how decimator makes it look worse

[modern spire]

Reminds me of how Whirlwind strike started as a yellow ability and then became red, seemingly signifying an acceptance for uppercut surfing

[feral gyro]

I believe the green looks better than red

[red crow]

i want everything to look purple

[stable agate]

Nighthawk + Focus would def be fun and since Nighthawk has recoil and does similar damage to unboosted Phantom Ray I don’t think it would be too stupidly broken, plus I miss Nighthawk letting you decimate mob HP

[worn trellis]

probably just trying to lock the boltslingers from getting hands on focus
given that arrow storm's damage is based around it being an isolated ability, and phantom ray's intending to scale up

[feral gyro]

not a bad idea
I just think the red is not very vibrant and lively

[stable agate]

But this will never happen, it’s a neat idea though

[red crow]

strictly a tna issue, no bolt would be able to maintain focus during any other content

[stable agate]

I much prefer Nighthawk Arrow Storm to Phantom Ray as Arrow Storm gives me better visual and audio feedback

[red crow]

BUT you would be able to go panoptes focus

[stable agate]

And also you would have to spend a bunch of points for focus

[worn trellis]

a tna issue is an issue
and if it means people turning the hardest boss to smoking ashes then it's something to have considered

[red crow]

its being reworked, so..

[stable agate]

People already do that, either way Bolt Focus never happening goes against bolt’s whole concept

[tribal sluice]

wanting to allow significant crosspathing between bolt and sharpshooter is really funny

it’s fine if two archetypes are nearly completely locked out of each other if they fundamentally have conflicting playstyles and abilities which bolt and sharp do

[feral gyro]

grape bomb and bouncing bomb jumpscare

[worn trellis]

it just doesn't feel like any of the archetypes have cool synergy with each other
Way back I had put together a tree with frag bombs on sharpshooter because I thought the frag bomb ability was pretty cool
But focus! I guess focus is only a suggestable thing to have!

[stable agate]

Old Archer tree jumpscare but they aren’t wrong, plus Bolt Storm is already balanced around a lack of things like Focus

[red crow]

angels tho

[tribal sluice]

back when I made my first revision of the archer tree I made it so you could take guardian angels on sharpshooter with some investment but would lock you out of some of the latter half of the sharpshooter tree but beyond that I don’t think the two should have any further crosspathing

[red crow]

i really dont see a point of maintaining a theme over allowing a higher diversity of builds, its like prioritizing lore over gameplay

[stable agate]

I think the -spell upgrades should be accessible to both and like call of the hound also be easily accessible but other than that and Guardian Angels yea

[tribal sluice]

it’s less of a theme more of the mechanics don’t work together lol

[stable agate]

Focus outside of bosses would never work and on bosses Sharp would be pointless because Bolt fires one arrow storm and is suddenly doing like 1.5 times the damage of Sharp easily

Like I was thinking purely hypothetically for Nighthawk arrow storm, actual Bolt should never be given the Crack Cocaine that is Focus

[red crow]

u are thinking full bolt instead of hybrid, which is what u would build if u want focus

[tribal sluice]

yeah you can obviously make some stuff like shocking bomb and hound and angels work together but I’m mostly referring to stuff like focus

and phantom ray

[stable agate]

Shocking bomb being way on the other side of the tree away from Bolt is weird but maybe it would make Bolt too broken? (Probably not lmao)

[worn trellis]

add deranged synergy that lets you take phantom ray on boltslinger
all of your arrows are now piercing lasers, and stop you from seeing entirely from the particles

[tribal sluice]

also I’m gonna be honest I cringe a bit whenever I see someone defend recoil I hate it with such reverence

genuinely ruined archer for me

[stable agate]

Sounds like launch Trickster levels of meta server crashing power

[red crow]

yeah just add the extra stream upgrades to phantom ray, like why is stuff being blocked

[modern spire]

Recoil sucks so much except when you actually have reason to exploit it (walk speed substitute for greg and flying bolt)

I’d prefer if recoil only existed while airborne

[red crow]

literally what elusive should be

[stable agate]

It absolutely neuters any real combat because managing recoil, bomb self damage, on top of worrying about health. Bolt being about staying close but you being forced across the room from one bomb arrow hitting you is real annoying

[tribal sluice]

allowing the arrow storm upgrades to work with phantom ray would not make sense

the entire point is that it’s inconsistent high damage unless you’re directly close to your target and phantom ray mitigates all of that

[worn trellis]

recoil is bad because it's barely even recoil
it solely serves to make gameplay harder
if I walk backwards while recoil pushes me backwards that should make me even faster but it doesn't! it slows you down!

[tribal sluice]

it would be a balancing nightmare

[stable agate]

But flying Archer is fun, only reason I have even a passing “like” recoil. Bomb Self Damage can die in a ditch

[red crow]

huh? u realize phantom ray deals less dmg than arrow storm

[modern spire]

It’s so annoying how much it murders grounded walk speed in every direction

[tribal sluice]

it also has higher effective range and access to focus

[stable agate]

When fully amped up by Sharp’s boosts it can do more

[red crow]

sharps boosts would require additional streams to not miss

[stable agate]

At base it’s not great but when you’re playing the archetype right it can hurt real bad

[zealous kelp]

You do know that if you miss 1 phantom ray shot your fine

How would missing a stream be any different

[red crow]

no? you lose decimator

[tribal sluice]

i would turn my attention to improving bolt and trapper synergy and possibly even sharpshooter and trapper synergy instead of trying to make boltslinger and sharpshooter work, it’s just not gonna happen

[red crow]

coz double shots punish missing any of the shotss

[stable agate]

My issue with Phantom ray is how dark it is when upgraded, making seeing where it’s hitting hard when in combat, I would like an Arrow in the ray to show where I’m hitting

Also it’s archer, where tf are the arrows in Sharp

[worn trellis]

suddenly, phantom ray has spread
doom

[red crow]

shaman attack

[tribal sluice]

it’s like trying to make arcanist and lightbender work

[worn trellis]

full auto shaman

[red crow]

mmm pandemonium

[modern spire]

Sorry all you get is green lines

[stable agate]

Or red lines with the upgrade, making it real hard to see what’s happening when a million other particles are on screen

[zealous kelp]

I thought you were talking about focus for a second but the basic of it is that even if you miss 1 "ray" you still maintain focus.
maybe this is just a hardcoded interraction with phantom ray, but I'd assume its just how it works with arrow storm.

[stable agate]

Lmao what

[zealous kelp]

Hey I could be proven wrong, maybe.

[worn trellis]

I mean, what
replace all of the health requirements with mana transfer requirements
Already did that with Sunshower

[tribal sluice]

i should go back and look over casjuice’s rework I remember him having some really good bolt and sharp ideas but I don’t think I liked what he did with trapper

[modern spire]

Homing shots and Twain’s arc are what I meant by green lines but eh I guess base phantom ray is close enough to count it
There’s also the yellow line that is shocking bomb

[stable agate]

I think Trapper’s concept is just fundamentally flawed in a fast paced game like Wynn

[worn trellis]

think there was a change that made twain's spell damage by default
thought that was very cool

[tribal sluice]

i think you can make trapper work

[worn trellis]

twain's is cool :)

[stable agate]

Twains not being spell damage and then being forced on any Sharp build is the bane of my existence

[modern spire]

Phantom ray has special interactions with focus because it’s the only ability that goes through blocks so it can’t miss like normal

[red crow]

i use the emerald attack effect too

[stable agate]

Also Crep Ray sucks and has gotten me killed, partly skill issue partly because Crep sucks

I wanna arrow storm in the air without being locked in low damage turret mode Salted

[modern spire]

You can swap off of your bow to get out of crap ray
You still lose focus but you get the escape reset

[tribal sluice]

trapper focusing on beasts so much instead of the actual traps just makes me cringe a bit

[stable agate]

Still really annoying that has to be a thing to begin with

[zealous kelp]

As a random tidbit: Many people complain about summoner not having many summons, but why does the so called "trapper" have a grand spanking 2 traps

[stable agate]

Someone played too much Beastmaster in WoW

Beastmaster has more traps than Trapper lmao and it’s whole gimmick is beast taming and commanding

[zealous kelp]

And it doesn't expand at all on one of them bar
Whoop de doo, it can now summon snakes

[worn trellis]

forget the traps and everything else
reworking it into The Soldier
the rocketeer is the real 3rd archer archetype

[tribal sluice]

never played wow so I’m not aware of what’s there but I’m not surprised if salted just took the core ideas from a class there and made it into an archetype even if shoddily

[stable agate]

Yea Trapper specifically reminds me of WoW but it’s influences are all over the game’s class design, especially Archer

Not a bad thing at all, but when it’s done poorly it sucks

[tribal sluice]

i think trapper design will forever suffer in the future so long as beasts take a primary handle and space in the ability tree that could go somewhere else

[stable agate]

I would say either fully change it to Beastmaster or take away the beasts outside of the dog (because hunting dog) and make it a trapper

Also make the dog actually contribute to the trapper gimmick, like it pushes enemies into traps or something

[tribal sluice]

when I made my archer ability tree rework (before the archetype actually got a soft rework) I made it so you could choose between hound or a couple other different beasts with varying effects

[worn trellis]

I think it already does that!

[tribal sluice]

it does indeed do that

[stable agate]

It does?

[tribal sluice]

that’s like its main shtick

[stable agate]

That dog needs to be replaced my boy is terrible at it

[worn trellis]

it relies on knockback to work so,,,.,

[tribal sluice]

womp

[stable agate]

Damn I just completely skipped over a whole sentence for a year

[stable agate]

Yea that explains it

I love CC immunity in games!

[tribal sluice]

me putting a trap on the other side of the arena and watching my dog push greg across towards it

[worn trellis]

stone grating sfx

[stable agate]

Dog a quarter of Greg’s size pushes scary Skeleton giant across football field! More at 11

Maybe Trapper’s traps actually trap enemies and dog attacks the trapped enemies like Venari from Warframe

[tribal sluice]

i made a lot of criticisms with cci back in 1.20 but honestly with the way a lot of abilities now have cooldowns on their cc effects I kinda don’t think it matters too much anymore

and at this point I think it’s a bit of a necessary evil even if it could probably still be improved

knockback is very dangerous if left unchecked

[modern spire]

cci generally exists to stop stupidity like launching greg to the stratosphere and perma freezing bosses with arctic snake

[worn trellis]

pre 2.0 Adrenophage getting put in timeout because a shaman cast aura once

[stable agate]

CC in general is always a balancing act, too strong and you forget enemies exist, too weak and an entire archetype is useless

[modern spire]

Or without cci blazing powder could permanently blind a boss and make them unable to fight back at all really

[tribal sluice]

i think it’s generally pretty fine now

unfortunate that some abilities become entirely useless like hound but traps as a whole still function so it’s not really the end of the world

[feral gyro]

rocket jump moment

[feral gyro]

I would make trapper a controllable playstyle instead of a braindead autopilot spell spam archetype

[feral gyro]

cast ophanim 5 times and trigger memory recollection

[feral gyro]

all we need is
https://discord.com/channels/143852930036924417/1225432864632475688

[feral gyro]

and you need to invest into raw melee so much just to make it work and sacrifice everything else to turn sharpshooter into solely sniper gameplay

[feral gyro]

ah yes force yourself to not gain focus while it is all going down the drain and risk dropping into a crowd and you could still die to anti camp in lootrun while using crep ray

[feral gyro]

trapper has the most number of 3D models or summons out of all archetypes it seems
gangels/shields, dog, traps, crows, snakes
I would count Twain's Arc as a summon

yea dog turning ino a pure single target dps tool just because the target has CCI
makes the design very shallow

[onyx olive]

major id that alternates between phantom ray and arrow storm

[feral gyro]

too much

[timid blaze]

nah

[timid blaze]

YES

[timid blaze]

ok thats a skill issue ur way too close if arrow bomb is hitting u - and bomb recoil is helping you with that cope

[timid blaze]

SOMEONE TAKE THIS GUY'S FINGERS AWAY!!!!!!!
im sick of him complaining about trapper for the wrong reasons!!!!

pick another class to lootrun 🙏

[feral gyro]

nah

[timid blaze]

nah, i'd cope

i ceased my trapper lootruns today because archer is sooo sloppy
the main reason is simply its too slow compared to the other classes - grappling hook isnt the spiderman playstyle i'd hoped for

[supple timber]

least you have easier pathing to +2 angels xD

[red crow]

But what about... hmelee...? 🥺

[feral gyro]

twain's arc hmelee gameplay when overclocked bots in corkus

[timid blaze]

im saving myself 3 liquid emeralds bc @obtuse dragon has my e6e6e6 epoch which also happens to be my best spell cost rolled epoch bc i wanna try flying epoch toooooo

[timid blaze]

https://tenor.com/view/overcooked-chef-overcooked-chef-overcooked-melon-overcooked-whistle-gif-22607790

[feral gyro]

ok

[red crow]

There was like a 90% spell max spellcosts epoch on market for 4 stx for a while

[timid blaze]

im a heavy hybrid boyo

[red crow]

Thats half way towards perfection

[agile umbra]

The bear reference

[knotty canyon]

this thread has over gone so much yappage

jesus christ

some of the worst takes i’ve ever seen in here

[tribal sluice]

were any of them mine

[empty owl]

were any of them mine

[stable agate]

You saying that doesn’t mean much lmao

You’re the best Yapper I’ve ever seen

More yapping than the adults from Peanuts

[timid blaze]

i thought he said overcooked lol

[drowsy ivy]

id agree with the archer is awesome one but i dont want you to go on another trapper rant

[feral gyro]

why the fucking is grape bomb or bouncing bomb accessible to sharpshooter?

[drowsy ivy]

💀

[feral gyro]

all of archer is literally about avoiding one inconvenience (of one archetype) and putting yourself in a different hell hole (dealing with the bullshits of another archetype)

now that I think about it
arcanist felt more engaging to play when I tried it

let's just play mage and forget archer

[somber fossil]

you should do that

[feral gyro]

I am pretty sure no other classes can stab their own foot as much as archer with focus and bouncing bomb/grape bomb does

im gonna take my time to think about boltsliinger for now...

Can we all agree that abilities like leap, better leap and homing shots should just be spells in the middle of the tree, not belonging to any specific archetypes?

wth many of boltslinger's early abilities are all very focused in dealing single target dps

guys im gonna use morph and gale's force and try to lootrun as a boltslinger

i'll be testing different options for crowd control

I think I am going to dump all the remaining sp's into agility

https://hppeng-wynn.github.io/builder?v=6#8_0cD0cB0cA0c80c70cF0c40c90IS111811111E1g00001007lU0z0z0+0+0+0+0--3-d7Bt3
WynnBuilder build:

Morph-Stardust
Morph-Steel
Morph-Iron
Morph-Gold
Morph-Emerald
Morph-Topaz
Morph-Amethyst
Morph-Ruby
Gale's Force [a6a6a6]

oh yea it doesn't work against enemies that walk too fast it seems
I've been hit by those overclocked bots in corkus despite having shields

😨
there is net gain in mana by using arrow rain and recycling

😨

I have a feeling stormy feet is not necessary so I'll just use cheaper escape for mana printing

[languid scarab]

just dont take it

[feral gyro]

of course that's one thing to do for the player
what about the devs? shouldn't they do something

Okay I have finally realized that boltslinger's endgame solution for crowd control is escape bomb esacpe bomb

It's also worth mentioning that the piercing on phantom ray does not equate to superior crowd control or AOE damage

flying around and causing lag seems to be the superior option

I think I should do TNA with morph gale's force

I think recycling should actually sit at the top of boltslinger tree

you'd think archer's meant to be the precision high damage class but arrow storm by default already has a spread

early access to not only arrow rain and escape artist but also recycling would be funny

and I've realized I have mistaken arrow rain for escape artist earlier

[feral gyro]

actual net gain would be 8 if mana cost is

you still deal damage, gain mana and prevent spell costs from rising if you let your shields explode into arrows and use escape

sounds like one hell of a deal

[feral gyro]

wait a minute I'd get no okr in morph

[feral gyro]

it's about time I suffer

it's time to stash away my inferior gma build
I embrace morph gale's force

[stable agate]

I think Archer drove this dude insane

LRing with Archer almost drove me insane so I understand

[feral gyro]

it was hsb

I have always been insane

[feral gyro]

archer has always been shitty to play for me
I vividly remember the struggles I had when I tried the quest boss fights that reward gears and when I tried NOL raid

[stable agate]

I have Stockholm syndrome with Archer, I love Archer classes in games, I loved 1.20 Archer, then 2.0 came out and it was fun but nowadays I just find it harder and harder to enjoy what was once my favorite class

[feral gyro]

the one where you fight Bob and TOA

[hollow steppe]

is this not true?

archer is the best casual class in the game in my opinion

[feral gyro]

definitely not totally awesome

[feral gyro]

that would be mage lol

[hollow steppe]

yeha mage if you like doing subzero dmg without cycling manastorm

[feral gyro]

mage feels perfectly fine in my playthrough

I think that's just a matter of lategame performance and being hindered by design flaws

[hollow steppe]

archer has decent damage, decent sustain options (+ giga range), and has feel good tree paths for all content in the game (aoe farming, single target, or a mix)

[feral gyro]

which can be said about trapper as a whole

[hollow steppe]

Archer is the most balanced class in my opinion

[feral gyro]

maybe riftwalker has it worse

[hollow steppe]

it doesn’t hinge on any individual abilities to the degree that mage does, nor does it rely on any disgusting stack buffs/unintended interactions like trickobat or ragna + ab

archer is indeed absolutely fucking awesome

[feral gyro]

sharpshooter is the best archetype out of the trio
the only incoherent pieces within are crep ray and twain's arc imo

twain's arc has incredible potential but does not really work with spells

and it becomes the core gameplay entirely

[hollow steppe]

the problem is that it’s so average (see: balanced) that there’s not much reason to play it if you have more than like 100 hours in the game because you can specialize and do more with literally anything else

[feral gyro]

crep ray literally sets you back in terms of progress, stripping you off the ability to use twain's arc, doesn't even have crowd control unlike normal phantom ray and actually places you in danger in many situations.

[hollow steppe]

i don’t see this as an issue in all honesty

[feral gyro]

it's more about gameplay variety

[hollow steppe]

archer tree does need some tweaking but as a class and in terms of its place in game content it’s very balanced rn

[feral gyro]

crep ray literally craps over everything else which is a bigger mess

[plush kettle]

I like everything in the sharpshooter except crep ray bc it kinda just sucks

[feral gyro]

maybe that says something about the state of the game and sets up expectations for the future

[feral gyro]

it's not just kinda it's utterly underwhelming even if it weren't for the janky hit reg

[hollow steppe]

what it’s saying is that the ability team can make a balanced class if they put their mind to it

[feral gyro]

using crep ray reduces all your focus and phantom ray spell for a burst of SINGLE TARGET DPS

[plush kettle]

It is useful sometimes when u think it’s too risky to do normal spells but u still want to get some dmg done but that’s just so niche

[hollow steppe]

i agree crep sucks though but then again most final reds do so 🤷 nothing new

[feral gyro]

it's just that there are weird oversights and it doesn't seem like devs respond much to some feedback here

you can see a dev or two getting into heated arguments in this thread but not others

[feral gyro]

it only conceptuallly works at the moment not in practice if you ask me

[plush kettle]

Conceptually it’s a great idea: u charge up all ur focus to have a cool flying attack that’s like ur ult

In practice u just avoid using it in 99% of gameplay bc it loses dmg

[feral gyro]

mine field combined with grape bomb is actually awesome
but no traps every work against Astralus :(

[feral gyro]

the visuals are actually neat

[hollow steppe]

i agree that some things can be changed but my general argument is that archer is in a solid spot rn, and the only reason it feels weak is because some other classes feel so absolutely fucking busted by comparison

[feral gyro]

it doesn't help that some lootrun challenges feel like devilish stat checks and punish you for not laying billions of traps on the floor or playing a different class entirely

[hollow steppe]

i think the last thing Wynn needs would be for archer to get buffed to like assassin/warrior

[plush kettle]

That’s fair but I mean no amount of balancing will make escape on par for lootrun movement with like acrobat or charge or tp

[hollow steppe]

of course, but I don’t think that’s a balancing issue that’s a niche issue

[feral gyro]

I think what we need is solid mechanics not insane damage scaling
I think we know it well at this point

[plush kettle]

But I feel like that’s also a lot to do with what the game favors rn so I also wanna see what the devs cook up with fruma

[hollow steppe]

yeah it’s the same with shaman

[plush kettle]

Yep

[hollow steppe]

on paper shaman is absolutely piss fucking busted lmfao like hadal gets 300-400k which doesn’t sound impressive until you realize this is against a fucking area the size of manhattan

it’s a content issue not a balance issue

[feral gyro]

yea it's all about mechanics not damage scaling

[hollow steppe]

you’d be surprised how many people start and stop a discussion on archer with “increase damage”

[plush kettle]

The dmg on archer is not bad, it’s just the way archer plays isn’t favored in the endgame rn

There’s so many things that do good dmg on archer and they’re more fun than tricko or idol imo

[hollow steppe]

it also just doesn’t really have a core identity in my opinion

[feral gyro]

literally this thread

[hollow steppe]

like if you think about it, what is archers identity?

[feral gyro]

I don't fucking understand why there's a guy who aggressively fights for 10% dps increase when he took billions of additive damage multipliers

it seems like he doesn't understand taking a hit is what allows advancements

[plush kettle]

Right click shootstick tossflinger, thing die

[feral gyro]

it's like taking a hit in defense for the sake of dps
he can't fathom the idea that windstorm could be a requirement for hurricane

and somehow uses design oversight as an argument to support his 10% dps increase

please I just want more fucking crowd control options stop taking the dev's fucking attention

[hollow steppe]

shaman is an aoe goat, assassin is a high risk high reward (well in theory lol) glass cannon, warrior rewards and incentivizes combos and mobile play/tanking, and mage can be seen as either a high skill cap class which rewards you for being mechanically skilled or a hybrid healer carry who can be immortal but also do decent damage

and then archer is just like.. ok I do damage from >8 blocks away 😄

[feral gyro]

archer: but I can't control the placement of all my traps

[plush kettle]

I hope they increase phantom rays range man

[feral gyro]

the fucking momentum of a bouncing bomb is multiplied!

[plush kettle]

Hopefully not with a major id on some water in a bottle

[feral gyro]

I shoot at the floor and the bomb flies into the moon

[hollow steppe]

archer just lacks that X factor which makes it feel special or unique

[feral gyro]

I am not even using shocking bomb

please just make arrow bombs lose momentum

[plush kettle]

Nooo i need my bouncing grape rocket jumps in confined spaces

[feral gyro]

I don't think it really compells such a change or buff

[feral gyro]

and fucking lose moer control!1!!1

[hollow steppe]

i agree but they said they won’t

[plush kettle]

Aw man

[feral gyro]

please just give a switch to the player to control when rocket jumps happen

[hollow steppe]

so whatever

[feral gyro]

imagine having rocket jump and trying to shoot an objective point blank

imagine all the platforms in the sky island lootrun

sky islands is anti trapper in countless ways
i still believe mage has is better in general

I don't care if meteor supposedly cannot hit birds

[hollow steppe]

i think the main inkling of an identity I get with archer is that it’s a rapid relocation class which benefits most from keeping its distance

[feral gyro]

corkus cave infested with bots that run faster than Usain Bolt:

[hollow steppe]

and then here comes phantom ray 10 block range and boltslinger arrow storm to completely fucking ruin that

[feral gyro]

the stat check entrance of that one corkus cave with gates and alternate paths:

please fucking nerf spawn rates

[hollow steppe]

trapper genuinely feels like the most archer archetype to me

you set your shit up, and relocate/abuse mobility to lock down an area or bait mobs into a meat grinder

the other archetypes are just various adaptations of the other classes but with arrows instead of like meteors

[feral gyro]

and it's the archetype where control comes and goes depending on your target

my feeling when my arrow bomb spell did not place a single trap in this confined corkus cave and bots that run too fast are about to kill me

please don't just let traps be mere landmines 😭

despite being the most archer in nature it's also the least consistent and least archer like in nature with its number of pets and how often mechanics can fail (especailly against Astralus and all CCI enemies)

[hollow steppe]

what if grappling was the default movement spell and windy feet also gave a little bit of jump height

[feral gyro]

the archetype that demands control yet fails to grant the ability to take control

[feral gyro]

what if it was an option and not an obligation to use grapple hook?

why must it REPLACE escape

[hollow steppe]

maybe holding shift makes it grapple? idk

[feral gyro]

yes

we need that kind of alternate function for different abilities like rocket jump

please read my thjread if you haven't already
https://discord.com/channels/143852930036924417/1225432864632475688

there are other threads that are NOT mine but I have talked about the idea of implementing changes to grapple hook to make it viable

https://discord.com/channels/143852930036924417/1225679243435048981

[feral gyro]

I've just realized it's an option to not use triple shots so I have another ap that I can use now

I have a feeling I should not grab elusive

why is grapple incompatible with escape artist btw?

[feral gyro]

I think I am gonna use this tree instead

maximizing the frequency of triggering arrow rain and minimizing the cost to trigger all that mana printing

[stable agate]

You can go fast, like really fast, like sonic fast without building for walk speed and also Boltslinger flying is fun until you get into combat then Arrow Storm recoil becomes annoying

But that’s kinda boring compared to Warrior entering Berserker rage, Assassin never touching the ground, and Mage summoning hellfire from the heavens

[feral gyro]

recoil is only good when you fulfil millions of conditions and suffer pain just to fly and act like acrobat and perform worse than an acrobat

recoil is a joke
and storm flight is a toy for people optimizing for single target dps in TNA runs

[feral gyro]

it'd be awesome if recoil actually acted more like rocket jump

but I hope that's an option and not an obligation or else you'd be flying uncontrollably

the fact that it takes an endgame node just to fucking not get pushed around by your own attacks is ridiculous

[modern spire]

it's not even much of a help to damage; If it does anything for you, it's survivability due to the nature of being airborne
other than that it's just a fun gimmick which feels awesome to learn and utilize

[feral gyro]

it's only a gimmick and it gets tiring quickly imo

[modern spire]

I personally enjoy it a lot because it's extremely unique in feel and isn't something you get that good at quickly

[feral gyro]

my hands

fatigued

I have another idea
What if fierce stomp would let you bounce right back up into the air and you may then make other maneuvers or make a quick escape.

I have a feeling it would be very dependent on the ping tho
It's going to hurt especially when archer is a rather fragile class to play

I think the descension should give the player some form of protection
Perhaps, damage resistance would be great.

[drowsy ivy]

So basically frog dance but only one bounce?

[feral gyro]

why not?

cuz fierce stomp is a pathetic ability without crowd control but with mere damage
and it's not much damage to begin with

that is only remedied with the combination of geyser stomp

[drowsy ivy]

Seems like it could be kinda annoying but I don't rlly mind

[feral gyro]

dropping into a crowd directly just for some aoe damage is not worth the risks
I also believe those two abilities should be higher in the tree and not be gated behind arrow hurricane

[supple timber]

lol

[supple timber]

there is litterally no benefit to doing it when your gonna be forced to escape out of it again anyway

and if you just want to use it for the ability to get back on the ground fast then litterally default skill + shift xD

and its not like arrow storm is gonna do much in that situation

which is kinda your only pseudo melee ability

[feral gyro]

are you not conscious

[supple timber]

yes

[feral gyro]

I don't know why you are talking about that when what I'm saying is that the crowd control and AOE damage abilities should be more accessible

[supple timber]

nah im just agreeing with you its bad

[feral gyro]

you would have greater degree of mobility if you get shot back up into the air after the stomp
and you can escape into any direction you want while you are airborne

[supple timber]

hot take but i want even more recoil from all of my skills as boltslinger xD

like not enough to make them full fledged movement skills but enough to dance around the arena

[feral gyro]

you want movement and dancing
what about being able to set up tripwire as you run
it would serve both crowd control and aoe

[supple timber]

ok

i mean i mentioned that in trapper thread xD

[stable agate]

What does tripwire have to do with Bolt dancing

Honestly Bolt dancing sounds like the name of a cool tech too bad it’s actually just the natural state of a bolt player after getting hit by anything with knockback

[supple timber]

LOL

[feral gyro]

we don't need that

[stable agate]

Testing housing dummy dps is a pain on Bolt because my bomb will just send me hopping backwards before I can do any meaningful damage testing to the dummy

[feral gyro]

it'd be cool if grapple could work like that tho
could replace tangled traps

[supple timber]

but ye you got the long range sharpshooter ... you got the medium range tactical trapper ... and you got the short range boltslinger that needs to stick close to get its full dmg out

[feral gyro]

how else can we introduce movement-related abilities to boltslinger?

[supple timber]

so dancing around opponents with high recoil skills woul be sooo fun

[feral gyro]

elusive?

[stable agate]

But it’s hard to stick close when your main dps abilities actively fight you

[feral gyro]

you won't be dancing if you have high recoil

you'd probably be forced against a wall

[supple timber]

LOL

[stable agate]

I want a damage test that’s semi-realistic and also Elusive is a bandaid fix node I hate it and it’s too far down in the tree

[feral gyro]

it's literally in the game in the form of rocket jump

[feral gyro]

yea many QoL abilities for playing archer are just so inaccessible for some reasons

[supple timber]

thats why i wamted them to swap rocket jump and elusive tho

[feral gyro]

grape bomb, geyser stomp should be higher up in the tree

[stable agate]

Doing LR on Bolt was fun because not only are you getting knockback and pullspelled by a bunch of mobs, but you also have recoil which leads to you doing jack shit

[feral gyro]

I really hate how cheap a maxed out boltslinger arrow storm looks

[feral gyro]

it's also funny when the crowd control is completely shit

[stable agate]

It took forever for me to deplete 2.7mil HP stationary target because everything in the game including my own abilities were fighting against me

[feral gyro]

that would sacrifice one of the fucking abilities' accessibility

[stable agate]

At least recoil is good in Greg fight

[supple timber]

its like you dont want to be bumped around as a sharpshooter but yet they have the easiest access to it

[feral gyro]

🫂

I remember my painful experiences in sky islands vividly

[supple timber]

make it so by default it moves but pressing shift shrinks movement by alot

so you can have both owo

[stable agate]

Shift does already do that kind of but it’s immediately negated by anything hitting you

[supple timber]

ah ye ic

[stable agate]

And also you generally wanna not stay in one place as Archer, especially in an LR when mobs are swarming you

[supple timber]

this is depressing

[feral gyro]

I think grapple is very useful for traversing certain landscapes
but it sucks so much for combat

[supple timber]

well in my scenario you dont hold shift and you move ... you hold shift and the movement is signifigantly reduced

[feral gyro]

I think the design of grapple and rocket jump is very intrusive in combat

[supple timber]

lol but wynn has problems aparently

[feral gyro]

they can very well hinder combat

[feral gyro]

won't save you if you dare to use rocket jump

[supple timber]

just remove the attatching to enemies portion of grapple

[stable agate]

Grapple can pull enemies towards you which could synergize well with Bolt’s low range if it weren’t for the fact Grapples range boost node was way too far in the trapper tree

And the fact that Escape is often very useful for not dying

[feral gyro]

having to avoid the ability entirely just to circumvent the problem is goofy
there should be controls

[supple timber]

they have room to add controls

[feral gyro]

we don't need such a "synergy"
grapple is meant for trapper but can be replaced by implosion
which means redundancy

[supple timber]

just remove the grapple hooks second passive xD and put it there

[feral gyro]

botslinger is moer about your own movement instead of bring other things to you

[supple timber]

honestly tho default grapple of dragging yourself does fit bolt well

[feral gyro]

in fact implosion is simply better than grapple for trapper in combat

[stable agate]

Like I said “could synergize”

[feral gyro]

nah I disagree we're in the wrong game

could make it into a separate upgrade tho

[stable agate]

As it is now it already could synergize with Bolt’s low range but you have better options, not saying it should be a feature, saying it is one but not really

[feral gyro]

"Ensnaring Strands"
"Ensnare and pull enemies with grapple hook.
Ensnared enemies take additional damage for 2 seconds."

[supple timber]

nah

the only problem right now is it attatching to enemies

otherwise it would be great

[stable agate]

And the range node being deep in Trapper tree

Meaning Grapple lovers need to also love Trapper

[supple timber]

true but like id sacrifice 8 blocks for better grapple mechanic lel

[feral gyro]

@stable agate is this good?

[stable agate]

Eh, don’t see it being used ever really outside of gimic builds

[feral gyro]

do you think grappling hook should phase through enemies and affect multiple targets?

[feral gyro]

I like the idea of maintaining a debuff or vulnerability of an enemy with a spell that would have been underused

and damage bonus is a very nice thing if you have a massive burst damage trap setup

it would also be useful against CCI targets

[supple timber]

ensnaring strand fastens you to the ground and makes you unable to move until you jump xD

[feral gyro]

offering a variety of functions is something that I believe most abilities should do

[supple timber]

lol

[feral gyro]

it's notable that countless enemies in this game have CCI
this is what trapper actually needs to get good

[supple timber]

to be fair CCI targets you just make them run into them instead of dragging them there xD

[hollow steppe]

its like the whole shitpost about the flash/speed type superheroes all over again

"i control the seas"
"i can shoot lasers out of my fucking eyes"
"im fast"

[supple timber]

fast is scary

fast should be a villain trait owo

[feral gyro]

overclocked bots in Corkus when you have too many curses:

[supple timber]

lol

[feral gyro]

golems at the entrance of that one Corkus cave with many paths and gates

and those weird security guards man

those enemies are nightmares

[supple timber]

"i control the seas" you talk to fish lel

and ye lol

[feral gyro]

"I can shoot lasers out of my fucking eyes."

Gets hindered by pathetic hit reg.
literlaly crep ray

[stable agate]

Except double that because it’s Green Arrow and The Flash so it’s

“I can shoot a bow good” and
“I’m pretty fast” in one

[supple timber]

lol

[hollow steppe]

🔥

[supple timber]

to be fair the green arrow was a tactician and the flash was a manchild

lol

[feral gyro]

Astralus on his way to float directly above traps and assert dominance over peasants playing trapper for Sky Islands Lootrun.

[stable agate]

It also heavily oversimplifying it because the Flash is legit one of the strongest heroes in DC, Speeforce is op as hell

[supple timber]

hes probably the strongest out of any superhero ever because zoom zoom

[stable agate]

A better comparison is like MCU Quicksilver + Hawkeye who are both just meh in their archetype compared to their DC counterparts

[supple timber]

but like if he was really that strong there would never be a story to tell xD

lol

arrow bomb becomes a harpoon bolt ... when it peirces an enemy its arc changes drastically and plants itself into the ground like 2-3 blocks away with a rope fastened to the enemy limiting its movement

xD

[feral gyro]

wow

alr time for me to actually give this bad boy of a build a test drive in Sky Islands lootrun
https://hppeng-wynn.github.io/builder?v=6#8_0cD0cB0cA0c80c70cF0c40c90IS111811111s1g00001007lU0z0z0+0+0+0+0--3VFVy0lI0
WynnBuilder build:

Morph-Stardust
Morph-Steel
Morph-Iron
Morph-Gold
Morph-Emerald
Morph-Topaz
Morph-Amethyst
Morph-Ruby
Gale's Force [a6a6a6]

[supple timber]

morph owo

oh ye btw

will shrapnel work with traps?

[feral gyro]

I'm not a fan of how it's practically impossible to get a bolt stomp build better than this

so many inconveniences

[supple timber]

you would just need to grap 2 other boltslinger points to use it if it did xD

[feral gyro]

I know it works with bouncing bomb

[supple timber]

actually hmmm

ye it would work but probably wouldnt trigger from the traps ... it would trigger from the bombs that placed the traps

[feral gyro]

you would need focus just to get slightly better stomp damage

and you get pathetic aoe as a result

using grapple allows stomp to be spammed more at the cost of not having escape artist

it's weird how the two abilities are incompatible

[supple timber]

lol

[feral gyro]

holy fucking shit morph gale's force boltslinger is so much better than my old build omg

I've been sleeping
I've been unconscious

[supple timber]

i was kinda hoping that if you took shrapnel then when the trap triggers it would trigger the shrapnel from the trap

but i rememebered arrow bomb is still arrow bomb

its just placing those traps as it lands

so it wouldnt even be able to effect the trap portion

sadge

[feral gyro]

being able to zoom around with good ws and sustainable movement spell usage is awesome

consistent damage output
this is fantastic
(my old build really fucking sucks)

oops

and I lost my fucking spell damage bonus from killstreaks

wtf happened to my damage output

WHERE IS BLUE

[feral gyro]

shrapnel bomb creates 30 "arrows"
with bouncing bomb it would be 60?
but uhh

[earnest elbow]

okay I was reading through the other messages in here and someone said they think boltslinger flying is unintentional

I am here to say that the internal name for Arrow Hurricane is "Helicopter"

Boltslinger recoil-flight is abso-fuckin-lutely intentional

[feral gyro]

sadly it's actually a really annoying gimmick to learn compared to acrobat gameplay

I think it's very fatiguing to practice storm flight

[earnest elbow]

my thought is this on recoil-
remove it from every other arrow storm upgrade and only have it place on arrow hurricane, where you can then move onto Elusive which is right there to mitigate it if you want

that way, people who wanna do arrow storm flight can just. not take Elusive

[feral gyro]

yes that should be the case

what do you think about putting all the AoE damage abilities like fierce stomp higher up in the tree?

especially geyser stomp

it'd also be cool if it has a similar effect to what is achieved by wind prison

but it's just now a very weak AoE ability with a weird gimmick that elevates enemies a bit

I wouldn't mind escape being more expensive to use if it actually becomes more involved in the boltslinger combat loop

do you have thoughts on the current placement of grape bomb in the ability tree?

[earnest elbow]

salted had this weird obsession with giving knockbacking abilities way more upwards kb than horizontal kb and it makes them useless

[feral gyro]

😨

if only rocket jump grants more upward momentum :(

[supple timber]

KB fun

[tribal sluice]

there is no logical reasoning in putting recoil on only one arrow storm upgrade (the most important one, even) just to force the player to have to make a compromise by taking elusive immediately after

the only reasonable solution would be to change elusive or some other node to be a recoil node and not force it at all

but knowing salted and Xavier’s methods of designing they’d probably never do this and we’ll be forced to cope for eternity

[earnest elbow]

it's...an option. the recoil is built in as a Thing About Arrow Storm so this is basically my thoughts on a compromise. Keeps the recoil but basically only forces you to go through...maybe six or seven levels while definitely dealing with it until you can switch it off as you wish

and for those who want to fly with it still, they can fly with it still. it's not like I can force that to happen anyways, it's just my thoughts on the matter

[tribal sluice]

im not going to make compromises with salted's bad design decisions

elusive very much isnt an end all be all no more recoil node either, i wish it were but it isnt

"dont get hit" sorry but theres plenty of content that isnt tna where you can very reasonably take stray amounts of damage and i do not ever want to deal with recoil

[earnest elbow]

well, I'm not you, and I have to

so

it's not like I can force that to happen anyways, it's just my thoughts on the matter

[feral gyro]

why not take away recoil entirely and make recoil into its own ability

it's not viable to make use of recoil until you are very far into the game anyways

[earnest elbow]

cause salted insists that recoil should be on arrow storm. like I said, only having it activate on arrow hurricane isthe compromise

also new discord text kerning is really bad

[feral gyro]

is it possible to make arrow storm give more momentum?

[tribal sluice]

it would hardly be a compromise at all, as if you are playing boltslinger youd have to be taking arrow hurricane

so tired of one singular developer who doesnt even play forcing his bad visions onto gameplay

[feral gyro]

if it can act like having rocket jump and shooting a target with arrow bomb pointblank
I'd be happy to have the recoil

[feral gyro]

we don't know if he knows the execution

[tribal sluice]

yeah thats exactly the point he doesnt know anything lol

[earnest elbow]

early on I don't think that's a good idea, since you have to deal with it while you're just learning. I think introducing recoil as a thing later is the best option considering he's very adamant that the main two issues with arrow storm, being the recoil and the insanely wide spread, should remain

[hollow steppe]

can you make elusive only lose its effect after like % of hp is lost or smt

[feral gyro]

that's so much more forgiving
we could use that

[earnest elbow]

arguments could be made that having it from an early point helps you learn it but equally having such awkward mechanics introduced so immediately isn't great either

[earnest elbow]

your hangman puzzle is seven letters
___ ____

[hollow steppe]

i dont think recoil is inherently a bad feature, and flying bolt is like i said before the most Wynncore thing i can possibly imagine

[hollow steppe]

fuk youu? first guses

[feral gyro]

lmfao

[tribal sluice]

recoil is an inherently bad feature

[earnest elbow]

sure livin up to that clown decal

[feral gyro]

the typos

[tribal sluice]

this is actually so rich

[hollow steppe]

thanks i strive to abide by a strict code of conduct

[hollow steppe]

aeiou which vowel goes where

[tribal sluice]

the joke is dev time

[hollow steppe]

gg .

[earnest elbow]

that's six guesses
_E_ _I_E

[feral gyro]

is it an option to increase the amount of recoil to let it act as a backward dash and turn all the recoil into a separate node that is easily accessible

[earnest elbow]

aaaand you went ahead with it

[feral gyro]

oh great

[tribal sluice]

we've just gone over how salted refuses to make it optional

[earnest elbow]

likely not. it's a thought but I don't think it'd be accepted

[feral gyro]

let's pray

[earnest elbow]

and also my thing about shoving recoil only onto arrow hurricane is a thought too

[feral gyro]

stay hopeful

[hollow steppe]

this just in, fruma has been canceled due to an unforeseen tragedy that befell the wynncraft team. when pressed for comment, salted had only one comment: "dev time, sorry but no can do"

[tribal sluice]

i dont want to see it be put onto arrow hurricane because at the end of the day it wouldnt solve anything and it would be used as reasoning as to why recoil is now fine by the community and salted

"oh but it did get changed!" shut up

[earnest elbow]

if the (seemingly) only available compromise isn't enough then idk what to tell you. I'd prefer the recoil to be gone too

[tribal sluice]

yeah i know its not up to you

it just frustrates me to no end because archer was always one of my favorite classes to play and its insufferable for me now

sharpshooter is ok i guess

and trapper is an absolute mess

[feral gyro]

all I want is practicality for arrow storm's recoil

[tribal sluice]

i dont really know what youre getting at it honestly

[feral gyro]

So, I wonder if it would cost too much dev time to make arrow bomb to lose momentum after a bounce.

[feral gyro]

it's kind of possible to just hold right click and spam left click at varying frequencies to achieve storm flight

actually trying to time precise spell casts and maintain flight puts great strain on the hands

[drowsy ivy]

your hud terrifies me

[feral gyro]

and this is still less practical than playing acrobat for mobility and dps at the same time

[drowsy ivy]

acro's whole purpose is to fly so yeah no fucking shot its more viable than flying bolt

[feral gyro]

I have noticed that arrow storm can grant way more recoil or backwards momentum if you jump

but it's still very weak and impractical to be taken advantage of in combat

[agile umbra]

that aint how you fly properly

[somber fossil]

yeah that would require dev time

[supple timber]

what you mean

[supple timber]

the fact that you have to pass through bouncy arrow to even get that recoil killed it for me

the only path who doesnt doesnt even wanna use arrow bomb

[median crow]

i dont think its a mess but i do love how the methods its supposedly doing damage are like,,, inconsistant. like why do huge waves actually make it so barely any bombs plant traps and it fucks ur sustain AND dps

still love trapper tho u just need huge fkin sustain to spam enough bombs that they miss and you get some traps out of it

[tribal sluice]

it is a mess

[supple timber]

shrapnel from trap triggers owo

[plush kettle]

So true, sticky traps when

Just put a trap on the mob if bomb hits it

[median crow]

Id rather the bomb just appear on the ground

Easier to code ig

[feral gyro]

yea but it's sustainable and doesn't hurt to try

unlike the actual method people use 👎

[feral gyro]

I think morph with gale's force is surprisingly sustainable for spamming shots in caves by holding right click and spamming left click

[feral gyro]

https://discord.com/channels/143852930036924417/1225432864632475688

read my thousand word document

[feral gyro]

and then deal with the inconsistencies of trap placement
:(

[feral gyro]

oh yea it hurts to use it against a target like this...

for an archetype(boltslinger) that grants incredible amount of "mobility" (walkspeed) it absolutely sucks at climbing to the top of the hill

and you'd be knocked out of it by random mobs
this can screw up a sharpshooter player a lot

idk who could have dreamt up of such a lootrun challenge

[feral gyro]

it's also astounding that it's been decided to give this arena a very limiting boundary and get players stuck in awkward positions
I nearly died from the accumulated fall damage at one point
it's absolutely not easy to break away from such a lock
all problems are only remedied by NOT PLAYING ARCHER UNTIL SOMETHING IS DONE ABOUT A COMBINATION OF ARCHER'S ISSUES and lootrun's issues

I am beginning to realize that archer's tree is a mess
I think the only way that allows a level of consistent single target damage and a level of crowd control capability
would be to have an awkward sharpshooter trapper hybrid where you sacrifice single target damage potential in favor of superior crowd control by using traps, vice versa.

[open skiff]

so theres like 3 days of conversation im not reading, has anyone suggested just making pre and post windstorm have both their multipliers add up to the same number yet

[stable agate]

I think someone suggested something similar but got into an argument with Selvut over it

[open skiff]

I don't get wynn devs

[feral gyro]

Let's get a list of abilities that affect enemy movement
Power Shots
Bryophyte Roots
Basaltic Trap +Implosion (+Grappling Hook)
Murder Flock (I don't even know how it would "distract" enemies.)
Snow Storm (pathetic effectiveness)
Arrow Shield (does not prevent enemies that run too fast from landing hits on you and only conditionally block Gobb's attacks in my experience. I think it depends on whether you are walking away from Gobb's attacks or not.)
Geyser Stomp

[open skiff]

Does arrow shield actually shield you from anything yet

oh no

[earnest elbow]

no they kept saying windstorm needed to NOT EXIST and was a fundamentally terrible idea to include whatsoever, all because there's a way to get around it that was unintentionally created when trapper was moved into the middle, and doing it that way, despite skipping a ton of useful boltslinger abilities, gives arrow storm a little more damage

therefore there is no reason to ever take windstorm, it is unequivocally a nerf nevermind trying to play boltslinger between nimble string and arrow hurricane in the first place, and we should just remove it so people can get the higher damage without having to make that super inconvenient detour through trapper

regardless of the fact that this wasn't actually possible before and when you factor in windstorm's mechanics it makes sense as to why arrow hurricane's damage penalty is lower than windstorm's

that's what I was arguing over

[stable agate]

You skip stormy feet by skipping windstorm

That's all that's lost, and anything at the bottom of the tree that may be lost due to lack of points is already worthless outside of maybe elusive

[earnest elbow]

then why the shit were they complaining about missing out on so much by taking the detour

[feral gyro]

Power Shots only works with melee and you can only maximize its effects by playing something like a tierstack melee build and not comprimise your damage too much

Bryophyte Roots is accessible which is cool and can spread out a lot if you land hits on lots of enemies in different places

Grappling hook's ability to pull enemies is redundant as implosion is just more rewarding to use and better in a fast-paced game.

**Murder Flock **has absolutely horrendous targeting and cannot hit airborne enemies.

Snow Storm is not only incredibly inaccessible but also affects enemies to a far smaller degree compared to an active ability like Bryophyte roots which can span across an entire arena.

Arrow Shield can be replaced by Guardian Angels (which doesn't actually serve as guardians but single target aimbots)

Geyser Stomp is just useless

[earnest elbow]

okay I can no longer take you seriously because you're saying Implosion is a good ability

[feral gyro]

Conclusion: the only real crowd control ability that can always be made use of is pretty much just Bryophyte Roots

[stable agate]

Idk lmao

[earnest elbow]

not really, but seriously. Implosion is consistently horrible

[stable agate]

Also implosion feels terrible I hate using it

[feral gyro]

it locks those shotgun bosses in that one rodo cave very effectively

it's really useful there for trapper gameplay
in that cave that requires dragon food

[earnest elbow]

and everywhere else, where you're trying to NOT get enemies falling into your face?

[feral gyro]

I can bring a terrible gma hybrid build meant for sharpshooter with no mana sustain and completely crush those enemies

[feral gyro]

just aim at the ground and place trap before anything...

you can place billions of traps when you are already playing trapper...

[stable agate]

Or you're trying to hit the enemies but they keep flying around because implosion is weird

[feral gyro]

besides... it's an optional ability

[earnest elbow]

if any ability doesn't deserve to exist it's implosion

[feral gyro]

and it's actually more useful than grappling hook pulling enemies towards you

[feral gyro]

if anything grappling hook should be reworked

[stable agate]

The issue is it's the main thing that pulls enemies into traps but it feels aweful lmao

[earnest elbow]

especially because it's in your best interests as a trapper to hit enemies with the blast, so implosion increasing heart shatter's damage which requires direct hit is

[open skiff]

are there any changes upcoming for implosion?

[feral gyro]

implosion is fine
it scales way too much when you have lots of traps placed
and all targets don't have CCI

[stable agate]

People actually like Grapple

[earnest elbow]

messy at best

[feral gyro]

try fucking grappling out of danger when your grapple gets blocked by enemies

[earnest elbow]

grapple is somewhat cleaner than implosion even if it still runs the risk of yanking the enemy onto your face

[feral gyro]

who the fuck ever uses it for offense?

[feral gyro]

trapper is trapper for a reason
you're meant to place traps beforehand is that not correct?

[stable agate]

People still like it for front facing mobility, I knew a few grapple simps

[feral gyro]

keeping a distance also prevents such tragedy of accidentalling pulling enemies against you

I'd like to mention that maybe the first arrow storm cost reduction upgrade should not be gated behind implosion for sharpshooter (who likely won't use traps)

[stable agate]

Implosion also runs the risk of pulling enemies onto your traps and detonating them before the traps get any meaningful Patient Hunter boost

[earnest elbow]

the hound has a similar problem

[feral gyro]

that's never going to matter in a situation like lootrun wave challenges

[earnest elbow]

but Implosion affects a much more central part of your kit

[feral gyro]

this kind of also adds to the problem of trapper being a archetype that either plays itself or does nothing

this is why I advocate for https://discord.com/channels/143852930036924417/1225432864632475688

it all comes full circle

[tribal sluice]

i hate implosion so much

infuriating ability to use

[feral gyro]

I like it
I think Basaltic Traps not working entirely is the biggest design flaw ever

[earnest elbow]

yeah if there's any ability on archer's tree that deserves to be removed and replaced with something else it's implosion

not windstorm

[feral gyro]

what about geyser stomp?

[stable agate]

It's funny and has cool particles

[earnest elbow]

geyser stomp just needs to not knock enemies upwards in the perfect trajectory to interrupt your escapes

[feral gyro]

I do agree that windstorm gets to stay
but I don't think arrow storm should be so much of a core component of combat for boltslinger

[earnest elbow]

and instead knock them BACK

[feral gyro]

escape spell should get to shine
what about guardian angels?

[tribal sluice]

geyster stomp is basically filler and exists so that escape's old effects from pre 2.0 are still there but its not really that taxing to have on the tree

[earnest elbow]

guardian angels are fine

[feral gyro]

I think they should just be suspended after they are elevated

I also think that geyser stomp or fierce stomp should also let you bounce back into the air to prevent staying with a crowd of enemies

[stable agate]

Lacking on the damage a bit I would say but the issue with buffing them too much is that you may accidentally make AFK Archer

[earnest elbow]

yeah

[feral gyro]

it's goofy that an ability that supposedly combines movement and damage output is so infuriatingly weak

[feral gyro]

which is why we should not have aimbot single target dps spell

[tribal sluice]

gangels are aight

[feral gyro]

how about actual GUARDIANS
I wouldn't care if it summons 3 guardians from fucking destiny 2 to offers 3 buffs

[tribal sluice]

damage looks low due to 2.0 damage inflation but if you dont consider that then theyre alright

[feral gyro]

might as well steal the mask gimmick from shaman

[tribal sluice]

basically just exist so boltslinger can function

[feral gyro]

it's also weird that movement doesn't directly benefit your damage output

[tribal sluice]

would be silly to have arrow shield on the archetype that is designed to be literally in the fact of enemies (I HATE RECOIL

[stable agate]

It does kind of lmao

[feral gyro]

it's the other way around only
you gain movement from your damage output

[feral gyro]

as if that is ever going to matter when you get incredible amounts of ws from just using escape+morph+gale's force

[stable agate]

Traveler ability

[feral gyro]

doesn't that only scale with gear ID's

[stable agate]

Free 100 raw spell is free 100 raw spell

[feral gyro]

and boltslinger's crowd control is absolutely pathetic

it's not just about AOE damage
archer's crowd control is fucked

[wild briar]

idt bolt is meant to be the croud control class?

[stable agate]

I don't think every class needs CC

Like give Bolt some kind of knockback on Escape for survivability but that's it

[tribal sluice]

boltslinger is pretty much designed to be explicitly single target with weak aoe

[feral gyro]

I don't think that's ever gonna excuse having no options to play more effectively

[tribal sluice]

it has arrow rain and escape artist but lol those got neutered

[feral gyro]

most you can try is to launch yourself into a crowd with escape spell, deal no damage and risk dying

or take bouncing bomb to "double arrow bomb damage"

[stable agate]

It is, lmao. CC is Crowd Control, which is generally different from AOE damage. Crowd Control is stuff like crowd stuns and knockbacks, bolt doesn't need that stuff

[feral gyro]

and bolt doesn't have both crowd control or aoe damage

[stable agate]

Bolt could use more AOE specifically for LRs but that's kind of Archer's LR issue in general, but it doesn't need CC\

[tribal sluice]

im not sure why they made all seeing panoptes a purple node

[stable agate]

Or why they made it garbage

[tribal sluice]

sure it wasnt really red tier power but it didnt even get replaced with anything lol

[feral gyro]

I think LR's biggest issue is unironically enemies spawning and being able to instantly use shotguns

[feral gyro]

I don't even know why there are so many abilities to reinforce a high single target dps gameplay

I hate it so much
you can't find balance in the archetypes

[stable agate]

They nerfed it while it was already meh in the same patch they moved Grape Bomb and nerfed Fire Creep, I don't think they ever buffed it

[tribal sluice]

what i suggested for panoptes in my old rework was to make it so you do 10% more damage against whatever mob your gangels were targeting which i thought was a cool idea

[stable agate]

That's a pretty neat idea

[open skiff]

keep up the good work lets get to 2000 messages

[stable agate]

Not a direct Gangels damage increase but still overall beneficial

[tribal sluice]

so true

[feral gyro]

that's pretty cool
it rewards sticking around your enemies and making more effective hit and run attacks

[feral gyro]

I can solo it! The power of unemployment!!!!!! This is a very good joke :)

[tribal sluice]

i mean at this point everyone knows that constructive feedback threads on the ability tree are more just for venting than actually expecting feedback to get through lol

[feral gyro]

blue getting another headache upon seeing more of my archer rants

[stable agate]

That's just #1019649786799996980 in general

[hollow steppe]

just cross path with mines?

[stable agate]

That does work yea, not amazingly but it's better AOE than before

[feral gyro]

something's wrong if that's directly better than fierce stomp+geyser stomp

[stable agate]

Not like you need any of the bottom nodes anyways so might as well

[feral gyro]

it doesn't help that mines can also be very janky

[tribal sluice]

i dont think anyone is expecting escape damage to be bolt's substitute for aoe lol

[stable agate]

No not really, I don't think those were ever meant for AOE damage, they have damage, but even in 1.20 Escape stomp was never a damage ability even if it did damage

[feral gyro]

then there would be absolutely fucking nothing from boltslinger for AOE damage

[tribal sluice]

i mean thats kinda the point

[stable agate]

Shooting your enemies with arrows tends to be a single target activity

[wild briar]

bolts entire point is single target dps spam right?

[feral gyro]

lmfao
I think making millions of arrow storm upgrades to incentivize close quarter combat is just not the right way to do it

[tribal sluice]

bolt's identity is mobility and single target

[wild briar]

theres little reason to give it good aoe

[tribal sluice]

and thats fine i think

[feral gyro]

I think it should be the embodiment of hit-and-run attacks not necessarily single target dps and mobility

[tribal sluice]

although sharpshooter doesnt really have that aoe weakness and still maintains single target so

mobility diff!

[hollow steppe]

i do that just fine with bolt trap

[feral gyro]

phantom ray takes damage potential to new heights

[feral gyro]

so boltslinger sucks I get it

[stable agate]

It's flawed but it doesn't suck, this is obvious if you remember Bolt was meta for a while

[wild briar]

archetype mixing is a core wynn mechanic

[feral gyro]

I think that's just the problem of uncontrollable powercreep

[stable agate]

Especially considering most bottom nodes suck

[feral gyro]

not really a class-based issue or anything like that

[tribal sluice]

bolt should have better crosspathing with trapper to help with its aoe yeah

[wild briar]

theres no way in hell youre specializing in 1 archetype

[feral gyro]

sharpshooter:

[tribal sluice]

but trapper crosspathing also just sucks so lol

[stable agate]

Exactly, Bolt's issues are powercreep induced, not because it sucks itself

[feral gyro]

it literally gets harmed for ever picking traps and gangels are inconvenient to use as sharp

[wild briar]

so what sharp can take double/triple and that counts

[feral gyro]

wth was that flash
did bro get filtered

[tribal sluice]

for your archer tree rework you will get: more animals. take it or leave it

[feral gyro]

and that's the most you can get aside from taking bryophyte roots...

[stable agate]

Give Trapper more summons than Summoner then do nothing else lol. At least Mamba does something sort of

[feral gyro]

yea we're actually gonna merge shaman and archer tonight cuz shaman's easier to use for ranged melee attacks

[hollow steppe]

Discord the only place where well articulated sentences still get misinterpreted.

You can say "I like bolttrapper for aoe + mobility" and somebody will say "So boltslinger sucks?"

No man. Dats a whole new sentence. Wtf is you talkin about.

[feral gyro]

why does it sound like you took offense

[tribal sluice]

what do u even take from trapper lol

[hollow steppe]

tried to edit this but im eating and on my phone

[tribal sluice]

ok but waffles > pancakes dont @ me

[stable agate]

You took "I do just fine with bolt+trap" and decided it was "Boltslinger sucks"

[feral gyro]

it's not like I misinterpreted anything
bolttrapper being good does not mean boltslinger is good

[stable agate]

You did though, they literally never said bolt sucks lmao

[feral gyro]

the two ideas can coexist and both be true

[feral gyro]

does that mean I cannot have my ideas just because the others don't think the same way?

[stable agate]

The idea that bolt trapper can be good and Boltslinger can also be good can also coexist

[tribal sluice]

who wants to eat some soggy flavorless pancakes when you could have some fresh crispy waffles 😍

[feral gyro]

wtf is this discussion devolving into

[hollow steppe]

nah you valid as fuck

[stable agate]

The crispiness balances out the syrup making things soggy

[feral gyro]

boys I think you are getting confused

[tribal sluice]

wdym ? clearly the title says pancake vs waffle discussion

[stable agate]

This is a waffle house boy take your pancakes elsewhere

[feral gyro]

we all agree that archer's is not in the best shape right?

[stable agate]

I do think pancakes pale in comparison to waffles yes

[feral gyro]

even this man agreed for once

[hollow steppe]

usually like all the way down to grapes and then I take gangels

[stable agate]

But also yea literally everyone in this conversation has in some degree agreed Archer has flawed class design

[tribal sluice]

idk doesnt really sound like you gain a whole lot from trapper but shrug

[hollow steppe]

the tree could use some work but archer as a whole is a gold standard for balance imo, if anything focus could use a slight nerf

[hollow steppe]

it’s more like boltTRAPPER tbh

[stable agate]

Focus taking a slight nerf and removing Crep Ray from the game would make Archer the best class ever

[hollow steppe]

i only take frenzy and gangels

[tribal sluice]

point still stands smirk cat

[feral gyro]

I think sharpshooter is the only gold standard

[feral gyro]

I would rework crep ray

wait a minute
what if crep ray were to be a giant laser beam instead that actually acts like a phantom ray on steroids and deal aoe damage?

I think we found the solution to crep ray problems

[stable agate]

Bolt needs it's recoil removed or have a way to reduce the recoil, that crap is so annoying and isn't even really a balancing mechanic but more like a harmful mechanic

[hollow steppe]

trapper could use some work but generally it’s fine for aoe and area lockdown

bolt needs some work too but the concept is fine

[feral gyro]

it'd also make sharpshooter look less boring imo

trapper is the most visually impressive archetype imo but it can get overwhelming

[feral gyro]

yea it excels in mob farming
that is undeniable

[tribal sluice]

shaman feels generally pretty well designed and balanced besides just being a bit boring and could probably use some more abilities

[feral gyro]

execution is always at fault never the concept

[wild briar]

crep ray like blood sorrow and timelocked is seen as bad because it takes away the resource that the class uses

[tribal sluice]

would say it’s probably the gold standard

[stable agate]

And crep also actively puts the user in danger lol

[feral gyro]

I think it's double down or nothing
either make it easy to take advantage of the recoil or have it not be involved to complicate things

[hollow steppe]

shaman/archer are both in a fine spot

[tribal sluice]

don’t really agree about archer

[feral gyro]

crep ray is worse than that
it actively hinders crowd control ability in reality

[stable agate]

I got killed by Greg because of Crep ray locking me and me not switching off of my weapon in time, put me off of Sharp entirely

[feral gyro]

phantom ray has unlimited piercing by default only limited by range

[tribal sluice]

crep ray really used to put you in danger of ranged mobs but they buffed the flight speed a while back and it felt pretty good to me

idk I haven’t really played a while since then so shrug

[feral gyro]

hit reg is left unchanged
isn't that right?

[wild briar]

wheres the cc in sharp

[feral gyro]

what about aoe damage

[wild briar]

is there even aoe in sharp

[feral gyro]

excuse me for I have misspoke

[tribal sluice]

well focus still buffs bomb damage too lol

[wild briar]

thats the snipe-thigns-from-far-away class

[tribal sluice]

just don’t miss your bombs!

[feral gyro]

phantom ray
you have piercing all along
but you lose it with crep ray

[wild briar]

thats barely aoe 💀

[tribal sluice]

i think bomb might even be most of sharp’s damage but I may be wrong

[stable agate]

That is not AOE lmao

[tribal sluice]

i mean it literally is but it’s not that great yeah

[feral gyro]

I don't know how else you can describe it

[hollow steppe]

always was

[feral gyro]

but you lose the piercing entirely if you use crep ray

[wild briar]

why would you need piercing?

[feral gyro]

dealing with crowds?

[tribal sluice]

hit more mob

[feral gyro]

wth are you meant to use crep ray for it it's not good for either single target or multiple

[stable agate]

Dying

[tribal sluice]

because ray has such a tight hitbox it’s unlikely you’re gonna be piercing a whole lot with it but it still technically is a form of aoe lol

[feral gyro]

true

[wild briar]

doesnt the 20 arrows a second deal with the mobs in the vicinity?

[tribal sluice]

this is sharp

[wild briar]

only thing i see wrong with crep is that it puts you in danger and drains focus

[tribal sluice]

oh you’re talking about crep

[feral gyro]

???

[stable agate]

And sometimes you just accidentally activate it and can't deactivate it in a timely manner

[feral gyro]

sounds like there should be more controls in this class...

activate phantom ray again to stop crep ray and preserve the rest of your focus!

put that into the game already we need qol changes

[tribal sluice]

shrug I think crep should be torn down and remade all over again but I don’t think that’ll happen just cause salted thinks it looks cool

[stable agate]

It does look pretty cool

[feral gyro]

yea I want a giant laser beam that hits lots of enemies

[tribal sluice]

it does look cool yeah

[feral gyro]

sharp is not visually impressive enough

[stable agate]

I think if it did better damage and you had mobility while using it then it would be a legit fun ability

[stable agate]

Doesn't need to be world ending damage, just needs to be worth expending your focus

[feral gyro]

summoning a giant crosshair and raining bullets from above is cool
but it doesn't look that good ingame

it doesn't help that the shots travel slowly :(

[feral gyro]

we need more control and damage potential from crep ray in general

[stable agate]

That's what I said yes

[feral gyro]

it could be in the form of simply upscaling the damage or turning it into a giant laser beam

and we need the abilities to cancel actions or prevent actions

I already have rants about how intrusive rocket jump can be

[feral gyro]

It's time for another cursed experiment
https://hppeng-wynn.github.io/builder?v=6#8_0cD0cB0cA0c80c70cF0c40c90IS111811111s1g00001007lU0z0z0+0+0+0+0-jFNVJLV7
WynnBuilder build:

Morph-Stardust
Morph-Steel
Morph-Iron
Morph-Gold
Morph-Emerald
Morph-Topaz
Morph-Amethyst
Morph-Ruby
Gale's Force [a6a6a6]

[feral gyro]

how would I deal single target DPS against destroy challenges?
storm shield shield lol
how would I get crowd control?
bomb

this is it

[feral gyro]

occassional crep rays if I can't sustain storm shield shield

[somber fossil]

why not storm bomb

[feral gyro]

just as I'm testing what could be the worse build ever

[feral gyro]

look at the tree and also the mana costs

[feral gyro]

and I lost it

😨

oh great my connection to wynn has been severed for minutes

oh great that took 7 minutes

[feral gyro]

Losing connection has not only costed me the vaqua v white beacon but also put me underground and inside the soil

beacon choice reroll is completely useless

I got the exact same combination of beacon choices with the two rerolls

I've only just realized that focus is only gained if you deal damage at range :)

I took vibrant red and didn't get 12 challenges wtf?

the youthful angels don't give focus at all no matter what

I have a feeling crep ray is actually meant for goofy builds like mine where both focus and grape bomb/bouncing bomb is taken

this challenge has devolved into phantom ray only gameplay

phantom ray has incredibly pathetic range when you account for that fact that you already have to keep your distance with your target to gain focus

I have noticed yet another issue

using grappling hook can block you out of crep ray usage if you don't have heights to climb to with grappling hook or simply cannot jump high

sharpshooter is like the most isolated archetype ever where every ability from a different archetype can break it entirely

now time for me to pray for a random mythic

[feral gyro]

I have finally come to my senses and realized that phantom ray sucks

[feral gyro]

and it definitely should get a range buff 😭

[stable agate]

Me when Sharpshooter, the LONG RANGED ARCHETYPE has less range with it’s Arrow Storm than Boltslinger with funny fabled helmet

[empty owl]

the funny fabled helmet is ass though

[stable agate]

Or less range than Bolt in general because the arrows don’t have a fixed range iirc

[stable agate]

Not really, it’s not terrible and is quite usable, and decently fun, Duat even uses it in some Freedom builds because it’s fun and does decent damage at long range while also being spammable

And having less recoil

[empty owl]

whats the conversation here even about anymore

[stable agate]

General Archer skill tree issues, though it’s mostly HellBreak’s fanatical Archer rants

[feral gyro]

I haven't actually tried that

I have made a billion builds
and I have only actually tried my own hybrid plague build

and then I swapped the argos chestplate for bete noire

and just starts using gma
and then I switched from playing sharpshooter to trapper

this is a bad joke

[quick charm]

what duh fuq

[feral gyro]

I think it'd be hard for me to die if I actually use that build but Idk

[quick charm]

mana sustain:

[feral gyro]

trapper is pretty much self sustaining if you just chain detonations
it's like arcanist

[quick charm]

oh right trapper
i have never played trapper

[feral gyro]

too bad trapper is the least consistent archetype ever
you're lucky if your bombs don't fly into walls and not place traps

good luck dealing any damage to Astralus tho

[hollow steppe]

why does (no rage) corrupted bashscream hero do more single target dps than raged max focus gma 😭

oops didnt eman to reply but

[feral gyro]

why does arcehr suck :(
dev time

[signal flint]

because gma gets to play 3 times as far away

[hollow steppe]

? no it doesnt lol

[hollow steppe]

phantom ray range is like 10-12 blocks

[signal flint]

thunderclap's range is 6 blocks radius

warrior plays 5-6 blocks away from greg, and gma plays 14-16

2.5-3x

[hollow steppe]

you dont play that far out unelss you want him to leap on you lol

[signal flint]

ok

two things

before u respond

@hollow steppe

1. you asked "why does bashscream hero do more single target dps" and the answer is because gma gets to play 3 times as far. doesn't mean it chooses to, but it hypothetically could.
2. im just fucking with u playing devil's advocate i dont actually thing that's balanced LMAO. an air weapon casting the best aoe spells in the game (besides shaman's maybe?) doing more single target dps than an EARTH weapon with negative hpr on a class and archetype whose kit was made for single target dps is silly

[hollow steppe]

ok let me rephrase: why does the generalist/aoe combo on a tankier class with more survivability get more single target dps than a single target specialist on a glassy dps

[signal flint]

because warrior rules and archer drools

archers go to jupiter to get more stupider, warriors go to mars to get candy bars

[feral gyro]

bro is spitting bars

[empty owl]

Sad to think about

[feral gyro]

nah you're fooled if you think archer can take advantage of ranged attacks
tiny enemies run fast as fuck in SI
the destroy objective SI is on top of a tiny platform and you keep getting pushed around
while you deal damage to objective you cannot deal with other enemies around
you also can't deal ranged damage beacause of how the objective sits on top of a small mountain platform

I am speaking with my sharpshooter experience in mind

[supple timber]

need range soo large that mobs dont even have time to spawn xD

make arrow storm into 1 big homing arrow that will attack enemies a bunch of times as sharpshooter and then if you go over to wind storm it will make a second large arrow

and then move phantom ray over to arrow bomb since arrow bomb is kinda iffy on sharpshooter

[obtuse dragon]

i like that except the problem is thatd probably be either very performance problematic server side OR have a super long cast time which hurts dps

[supple timber]

sad xD

[obtuse dragon]

especially because pray already has a long ass cast time meaning its cps capped and the only thing u can spam inbetween atm IS bombs

[median crow]

god i HATE that one as archer

they took arrow spread from sharps arrow storm to make phantom ray

and had all this math for spread leftover and gave it to crep instead

i love aquiring focus by not missing my abilities to expend it in a move that 50% of the shots miss because they move slow as ass and cant home on an enemy moving

[obtuse dragon]

i love building up 7 focus on sharpshooter to kill a phase of a boss only for the 2nd phase boss ai to lose aggro for a split second, wander in a completely random unpredictable direction for me to lose all my focus

[supple timber]

lol

[brave gorge]

you forgot to mention how braindead bashscream is

[signal flint]

TRUE

[brave gorge]

I can throw myself in front of a blue shift watcher as hero and come out alive

I throw myself at the tiny skull mobs in VM as gma and I die

Seems fair

At least trickrobat requires some form of knowledge and not playing like a dumbass

[hollow steppe]

bro can you stop being so hyperbolic lmao

stop comparing bashscream to brain dead patients, brain dead people have to breathe and shit which is still harder than bashscream 💔

[brave gorge]

Damn you are right

I was being too insensitive of others

[hollow steppe]

thank you for your consideration, i pray one day bashscream mains may regain their humanity

[stable agate]

And a braincell maybe

[brave gorge]

statistically unlikely

Scientists were initially baffled by this discovery, but upon further research have found out that the excessive amounts of bashing the floor and screaming has caused an acute form of "Epoch Brainrot". This disease was initially thought to only affect epoch users, but with this groundbreaking revelation, has revealed that the epoch brain rot disease has a distant relative that primarily affects warrior mains, especially those that use Hero.

Primary onset of symptoms takes around 3 days to set in. They include a severe lack of situational awareness, conjunctivitis and internal brain smoothing. Later stages can progress into the player developing a full spell cycle macro and ceasing to play the game as a whole.

[hollow steppe]

stand proud you can cook

[stable agate]

Tbf ceasing to play Wynn would probably improve their situation

Seems like it solves itself

[plush kettle]

as a bash scream user, this is my reaction

https://tenor.com/view/brain-gif-9793003

[empty owl]

2k messages

[stable agate]

16 likes, 2001 messages, Archers truly are more oppressed than Shamans 😔

[empty owl]

real

[red crow]

archers are the most sensitive

[stable agate]

YOU TAKE THAT BACK OR I WILL CRY

[tribal sluice]

assassins are for sure the most sensitive from my years in wynncraft

in the earlier half of 2.0 it was kinda not that great and you heard way more complaints about assassin than any other class

(and now look where the class is at lol)

[stable agate]

I’d say it fluctuates but Assassins are def the biggest and most recent example of class simps yelling into the void in the hopes Salted the Devourer of Wallets responds

[signal flint]

i don’t blame them

assassin was dookie for a long time

and they removed the most fun part about it. they gutted vanish. u go from assassin being one of the best classes to really ass in one update, and then half a year (or was it even more?) of almost no change to this fact

[tribal sluice]

"long time"

[signal flint]

are you trying to say 6 months off your favorite class isn’t a long time…?

skull emoji

[tribal sluice]

no im saying that i dont remember it being 6 months and that it was still usable in the time frame anyways

vanish was stupid anyways

[signal flint]

true

[timid blaze]

u complain about everything you use!!!!!!

ur right tho that challenge is a pain in the ass if u use grapple

[feral gyro]

grapple magically blocks escape artist and even crep ray if you have inadequate jumping power or no height to jump off of
it doesn't help that grapple makes it harder to escape from a crowd
everything about archer's mobility is very dependent on the terrain
storm flight is a gimmick not for practical gameplay
Archer has no mobility

[somber fossil]

archer has no mobility is certainly a take

[hollow steppe]

if you think archer has no mobility i wonder what you think of shaman

[feral gyro]

I think blood connection is the greatest mobility gimmick
but I will find fault in more things surely

[feral gyro]

mobility might be real if you somehow won't use grappling hook in Sky Islands

I'm sure jump height helps but how helpful is it?

[plush kettle]

at least shaman can use haul multiple times midair :/

i mean u can use grapple multiple times midair but even then its still worse cuz its so reliant on there being stuff above u

[feral gyro]

default escape when you are airborne and you have already casted it to be airborne to begin with:

archer's mobility is very reliant on terrain unless you love storm flight to no end

[plush kettle]

storm flight is also slow asf compared to pretty much any other movement

[feral gyro]

it's about as complicated as attempting to travel fast with spells as a shaman

[somber fossil]

me when sky islands is apparently the only area in the game

[feral gyro]

in fact it's worse
way worse

[somber fossil]

LOL

have you tried not using grapple 💀

[feral gyro]

I don't know man
anything that isn't trapper seems to be unplayable in every other lootrun camp

[somber fossil]

that is, simply put, a skill issue on your part

[feral gyro]

nah
damage stats let you speedrun interactions with enemies entirely

I remember when I had a crazy sharpshooter run where I just spam spells and not give a shit about focus
it fucking works

but that was technically handicapped gameplay

[feral gyro]

try playing archer without grapple for sky islands or corkus
it's insane

takes forever to travel

grapple's good in rodo too

but you lose the superior combat maneuver when you pick grapple

I hate ability replacements

[plush kettle]

honestly why not just make escape like pre 2.0 dash where u can use it multiple times midair but with a cooldown

its not like itl be that busted when stuff like tp charge and blood connection exist imo

[somber fossil]

yeah I have and I can tell you that’s it’s still pretty fast if you don’t suck lol

grapple is way slower than normal escape in corkus too since it’s mostly flat

[feral gyro]

I'll always appreciate the vertical travel offered by grapple

[somber fossil]

I won’t

[feral gyro]

may be it is easier to spam escape in corkus but having to make a compromise is idiotic

[open skiff]

🥳

[supple timber]

nuuu

[faint bronze]

fr man assassin flight when

only downside of shadestepper playstyle frfr

[feral gyro]

isn't dash by default pretty spammable

[faint bronze]

yeah decently so but like assassin flight was so fun both to figure out how to do and to use

[feral gyro]

that's what happens when movement is intended
storm flight is the devs' unwanted child

[plush kettle]

They said flying bolt is intentional no?

[modern spire]

Yep (I was wrong about this earlier)

[median crow]

imagine if it was intended to be good too

[feral gyro]

god knows if someone designing the abilities actually had the idea of being airborne by making use of the recoil