Boltslinger/Overall archer tree

[empty owl]

The placement of windstorm in the boltslinger tree is problematic since it forces boltslinger trees to avoid it completely and spec a significant amount of points into trapper. On top of that, windstorm is required to access stormy feet so you can pretty much think of stormy feet as not existing. All of this is due to the fact that windstorm significantly reduces the damage of arrow storm. Either make windstorm actually increase the damage or make it an optional branch in the tree rather than being the only way to progress downward?

Windstorm aside, I've noticed boltslinger has taken quite a few nerfs over the past year and is pretty much worse than sharpshooter for everything but divzer. Frenzy walkspeed was nerfed from 160% to 120% down to 70% which not only reduces the mobility of archer, but forces archer to take walkspeed items over higher dmg items, eg. divzer being forced to run the one singular build involving delirium.

Another nerf bolt has taken which is more slept on is making cheaper arrow bomb II inaccessible to boltslinger which makes the mana sustain a lot worse forcing even more damage to be substituted for mana sustain.

Oh yeah and they REMOVED precise strikes from the game (why does nobody talk about this?) as well as moved sharpshooter from the middle of the tree to the left so you can't get homing shots as boltslinger anymore.

I feel like all of these nerfs as well as lootrunning being added make archer the "worst class in the game"

[hollow steppe]

sad because archer used to be so good

[red crow]

It is still funny to me that the decision to swap trapper and sharp, which apparently had a lot of support behind it, ended with trapper not getting anything from ajacent trees, bolt losing homing shots (inherently a bolt ability), and sharp losing leap access

[tribal sluice]

the entire purpose behind wanting trapper and sharpshooter to switch was to increase the crosspathing capability of boltslinger and trapper and yet they did nothing to actually improve upon it besides just swapping places

[red crow]

Sharp camt even get the cute dog like before (snek is cool too tho)

[empty owl]

i was on hiatus when this happened but i would have definitely opposed this

[red crow]

I was just learning the ropes at that point, not interacting with the community all that much

[tribal sluice]

Oh yeah and they REMOVED precise strikes from the game (why does nobody talk about this?)

this is a good thing

[red crow]

Would be cool if trapper made use of shrapnel bomb + recycling, maybe leap too, and bolt had summons maybe

Else whats the point

[red crow]

Yeah boring node tbh, tho i miss the damage

[tribal sluice]

precise strikes/shots were stupid because it was a 1 cost node that outright made one skill point superior to the other

[empty owl]

true but they removed damage

[tribal sluice]

this is also a good thing

[empty owl]

i mean archer is not even the best at what its supposed to do anymore (tna)

like .. the optimal tna party is 3 catas and an idol

[tribal sluice]

just because it isnt absolute meta doesnt mean that it wasnt also a benefactor of overall power creep in 2.0

[empty owl]

yeah it got stronger but it was taken down a good deal later down the line while everything else stayed up

[tribal sluice]

ideally everything is going to be scaled down

[empty owl]

a lot of archer's power loss comes from a super inconvenient tree tbf

[brave scarab]

um uhh too op (not for warrior though)

[empty owl]

lol true

[tribal sluice]

does warrior still have precise strikes

[brave scarab]

yes

[empty owl]

yeah

[tribal sluice]

thats fucking golden lol

[empty owl]

and a bunch of other sutff that increases dmg :)

armour breaker, corrupted, ragnarokkr, discombobulate

[tribal sluice]

saying other archetypes are even more broken will never be good reasoning for keeping something else broken

warrior's day of reckoning will come. maybe. one day. idk actually lol

[brave scarab]

admittedly, precise strikes/shots is a really boring node
maybe if it was at east a tradeoff it oculd be more interesting (like maybe -ws, -hp, whatever)

[empty owl]

well, it would be cool if archer got buff or other stuff got weaker

[tribal sluice]

nodes that make one sp outright better than the other just shouldnt exist

[empty owl]

doesn't really have a place in this game aside from being 2nd best dps source in tna

[tribal sluice]

balancing around hyper specific metas is never the play

[empty owl]

well, archer is useless in tcc and lootrunning

[tribal sluice]

definitely not

[topaz haven]

You can get homing shot with bolt

And archer is great in tcc

[empty owl]

https://tenor.com/view/no-gif-18120019

[topaz haven]

https://wynnbuilder.github.io/builder?v=6#8_0VI0KF0XY0Qz0rr0U90O30V10uz1j1a-Y-Y161g1000361000361000361000361001Z61B1B030309090iz-cycBK-6

You can and I get better dps than full sharp

The only things I would agree on is that windstorm suck yes

[brave scarab]

nah your wrong

[topaz haven]

And for lr , most people slept on trapper , its goated when played right

I myself play a trapper tierstx epoch build in tna

[empty owl]

This tree only lets you get 5 focus..

[topaz haven]

2focus is less damage overall than 4ga

Also better frenzy uptime

[red crow]

Homing shots user convincing themselves that more than 4 focus is possible to maintain

[topaz haven]

You obly get focus on big target anyway like greg or collosus

Also ga give focus so you actually get to see max focus often

Even on semi big target

To sum up I thinks archer tree is perfectly fine (except for windstorm which really need a buff/rework) all 3 archetypes are good and viable and hybrid can coexist
Even tho some archetype work more or less in certain content like sharp is best for raid , bolt is great for the speed and hybrid and trapper is the goat for archer lr which I find to be the perfect balance. Players can choose freely what to use for their favorite playstyle

[earnest elbow]

trust me we do NOT plan on keeping it, but fallen has like. nothing

what it does have is generally impactful, but its total is very small

we just literally have nothing to move into its place or replace it with that won't end with fallen's tree being even more of an itty bitty straight shot than it already is

we have plans, obviously, but dev time is required.

out of curiosity, how much does windstorm actually reduce arrow storm by...?

[topaz haven]

Like for divz its a net -80k I thinks

Its huge for a node that should UPGRADE you

Its like that fabled helm for storm , just a debuff

[faint bronze]

bolt losing homing shots 😭 one of the coolest abilities

[topaz haven]

You can get homing shot with bolt..

[faint bronze]

thats literally a point in the original post

"as well as moved sharpshooter from the middle of the tree to the left so you can't get homing shots as boltslinger anymore. "
"bolt losing homing shots (inherently a bolt ability)"

[topaz haven]

But its a lie

[faint bronze]

i mean of course you can get almost anything with bolt (and a bunch of the other)

[topaz haven]

Check above ive send a tree that does for example

[faint bronze]

but like i wouldnt call lightbender riftwalker

also i hate to break it to you but i didnt see a boltslinger tree above in the thread

[topaz haven]

?

[earnest elbow]

Arrow Storm starts out shooting 1 stream of 8 arrows...40% x8...320%
Nimble String adds 6 arrows per stream and cuts damage by 10%, so...30% x14...420%
Windstorm adds 1 stream and 2 arrows per stream and cuts damage by 10%. That's 16 arrows per stream, and 2 streams...so 20% x32...640%
Arrow Hurricane adds 2 streams and cuts damage by 5%. That's 16 arrows per stream, and 4 streams...so 15% x64...960%

[faint bronze]

that is not boltslinger lmao

[earnest elbow]

Is my math wrong?

[faint bronze]

if anything its like bolttrapper

doesnt even reach to the bottom about page and i half iirc

[topaz haven]

Bolt is the lowest by your definition so its bolt tree , youve played yourself there

[faint bronze]

huh?

[empty owl]

Could windstorm be seeing a buff? Or can they just move it out of the way..

[faint bronze]

i genuinely dont know what you are saying

[earnest elbow]

I guess it must be possible to get Arrow Hurricane without Windstorm, so let's see that.

Arrow Storm starts out shooting 1 stream of 8 arrows...40% x8...320%
Nimble String adds 6 arrows per stream and cuts damage by 10%, so...30% x14...420%
Arrow Hurricane adds 2 streams and cuts damage by 5%. That's 14 arrows per stream, and 3 streams, so...25% x 42...1050%

ALL THIS FUSS OVER 90% DAMAGE?

[empty owl]

Yea

Why would anyone actively take an ability that cuts your damage

And gives zero benefit in return

[faint bronze]

there are a lot of just bad things in the tree that are required so it fits the logic

[earnest elbow]

You all are insane. You do not need to optimize that hard! You're right that it's technically a slight nerf overall, but you lose out on strong boltslinger flight, you lose access to most of Boltslinger's tree by routing around to desperately avoid even the smallest possible downgrade...that 90% is an absolute drop in the bucket!

[faint bronze]

like sentient snake (please remove !!)

[empty owl]

It also makes arrow storm take longer to cast

[earnest elbow]

it's approximately 9% more damage on your storms(comparative) to avoid Windstorm. Like...I'll give you that we probably should do something about that, but moving it out of the way is absolutely not gonna happen, and I can guarantee to math it out that it wouldn't be a nerf the only options would be to either lock Arrow Hurricane behind it(making Windstorm a requirement) or nerf Arrow Hurricane further(which would hit Arrow Storm even harder).

[earnest elbow]

Oh no! Two extra ticks!!!

A whole 0.1 seconds extra! OH WOE IS YOU!!

[empty owl]

Doesn't sound big,

[earnest elbow]

Arrows are shot by the tick in arrow storm after Nimble String is gotten. We literally cannot make it any faster.

It ONLY matters with macroing.

I'm making that statement right now, no one who isn't macroing cares.

[faint bronze]

i used to use something like https://wynnbuilder.github.io/builder?v=6#8_2SG2SH2SI2SJ2SK2SL2SM2SN0QP001G0F0F001g000000z0z0+0+0+0+0--tn-vaT40 but with homing shots and extra shields and uhm
yeah not very realistic

[earnest elbow]

It is such a MINISCULE loss of time.

[faint bronze]

since whenever they swapped sharp and trapper

[earnest elbow]

It doesn't sound big because it ISN'T big.

The spell taking 0.7 seconds without windstorm and 0.8 seconds with is NEVER going to be a notable factor in standard play.

The only time it ever would come into actual play is macroing for maximum DPS.

[earnest elbow]

.

[empty owl]

It is an overall damage nerf so idk what you expect

You want people to just take the 2 skill point direct nerf?

[earnest elbow]

Well since you apparently lose out on other super valuable abilities you mentioned earlier by not taking it and are forced to route around and take other irrelevant things that you don't want...I'd say yeah, taking Windstorm is probably the better option here!!

[faint bronze]

im pretty sure sentient snake is required to play arcanist so like yeah probably

wynn works in many ways, a lot of them illogical

[earnest elbow]

90% damage and an extra .1 seconds is not going to kill you. It is not going to destroy your records. It is not killing the game. I'll give you that something should be done but the only thing I'm feeling is that Arrow Hurricane should need Windstorm as a requirement. It's a logical progression of upgrades, I can't say I'm feeling particularly as if Arrow Storm of all spells deserves a buff.

[worn trellis]

Remind me later today to do some damage tests with arrow storm

[modern spire]

I'm generally the type of person to prefer the tree cohesion of taking windstorm, so this isn't meant to be an argument for skipping it, but I will note that the spell multiplier for each arrow includes -1% air damage if you skip windstorm, so it should actually be 26% * 42

[earnest elbow]

...well, I take that back. Arrow Storm either deserves the recoil removed til you take Arrow Hurricane so you can take or leave the flight if you want, or it should get a spread that doesn't have a liking towards throwing your arrows into the ground.

[rustic ridge]

they removed precise shots
precise strikes is still very much in

[empty owl]

Applied on divz build, windstorm takes away 14.7% of the dmg :/

[faint bronze]

what was precise shots again

[empty owl]

Crit dmg

[modern spire]

30% more damage on dex crits

[faint bronze]

id like to point out that all the guardian angel buffing abilities are like
inaccessible to the class with them

[earnest elbow]

Arrow Storm:
40% 30n 10t
Nimble String: subtract 5n and 5t
30% 25n 5t
Windstorm: subtract 9n, 3t, add 2a
20% 16n 2t 2a
Arrow Hurricane: subtract 3n, 1t, 1a
15% 13n 1a 1t

I don't get what you mean.

[faint bronze]

cheaper arrow shield and better arrow shield you can sorta get but like more shields

[earnest elbow]

...oh, now I see it.

[empty owl]

More shields is also now inaccessible to bolt

[earnest elbow]

Even still.

An extra 42% or not, Arrow Storm is 100% not the issue here. Other things about the tree- cross-compatibility or synergy or whatever- yeah, those could probably get touched up to be better. But Windstorm being where it is, is not the culprit here. That's you being so obsessed with milking every last digit of damage you can out of everything that you're failing to realize the other utility you're missing out on by avoiding what could ostensibly be called a downgrade. You want to eat your cake and have it too.

[empty owl]

I really hope you're not in charge of balancing the ability trees..

[earnest elbow]

I'm right though. You yourself are complaining about missing out on things like Stormy Feet and being "forced" to cut through Trapper to dodge such a tiny, tiny downgrade. You're specifically complaining about losing utility for the sake of extra damage. Like I said- the rest of your points, about cross-compatibility? Things like Frenzy? You kinda have something there, but Windstorm is not a lynchpin in this. It is not an ultimate evil.

[empty owl]

I would not call -~10% damage on the best ability a tiny tiny downgrade

[kind sonnet]

speaking of arrow storm, hawkeye buff when

[earnest elbow]

There being a roundabout, inconvenient way to circle around the tree, skipping key upgrades, and eventually sliding in to a further upgrade than intended to get a slight damage boost doesn't make Windstorm a conceptual downgrade. Honestly, that smacks to me of an unintended effect. Boltslinger's old tree...I'm not sure if you were able to do this with it there due to it being positioned next to the fundamentally opposed Sharpshooter and the layout being different, but I feel like it wasn't possible then. As I've always preferred Sharpshooter and Trapper due to loathing arrow storm recoil with all my damn being, I never checked much, but it's a safe assumption that Arrow hurricane didn't need to have Windstorm as a requirement because of its previous positioning and the refactored tree has had some unintended consequences.

[empty owl]

elusive is a thing you know

[earnest elbow]

And the rest of what I said that actually has to do with your arguments?

[tribal sluice]

lol

[empty owl]

ive got no clue what youre talking about in the rest

[earnest elbow]

I can't really simplify that much further

[empty owl]

I believe your downplaying of windstorm's damage nerf is pretty damn colossal though

i've got some wynnbuilder examples if you dont mind

https://wynnbuilder.github.io/builder/#8_0uB0DP0Je0Lg0TQCR-19C9C9iA2A2A29m910ONCR-19C9C9iA2A2A29n910QS1B2O0e+Psy1g10006C10006C10006C10006C10036C1717050505050el-hsoNk20

[earnest elbow]

ETW TNA builds aren't particularly persuasive, especially since one of our current goals with the AT is to prevent such explosive damage from occurring anyway. We've been trying to curb damage this entire time. If making it so you can't skip Windstorm fixes the pathing issues by cutting that particular knot while having a slight nerf to Arrow Storm, and one brought on by fixing what appears to be an unintended side-effect of having refactored the tree and its positioning...that's kind of a win-win-win right there, isn't it?

(Written before link was posted.)

[empty owl]

i get that , just example on the impact of windstorm

[earnest elbow]

but I was right. It was ETW

[empty owl]

this is before and after windstorm

[earnest elbow]

Such a shame. Truly a Shakespearean tragedy, a sorrow of unfathomable proportions.

This is only proving what I said. That kind of nerf sure has some kind of impact, but I can guarantee you it isn't one that will be felt by more casual players

[empty owl]

now THIS is after removing both the crafted ring and necklace which provide 9% spell dmg 24% thunder damage

[worn trellis]

On the small note selvut brought up about half of the arrows from arrow storm shooting into the ground...
They really don't..?
One or two may hit 4 blocks away from you, which while isn't a lot, is going to make no difference, because you're close enough that they would all hit regardless, or you're far enough that you'd lose much more damage from the other stray shots going up and around

[empty owl]

the damage with windstorm is literally less than the damage after removing 2 accessories

can you really call that insignificant

[earnest elbow]

This is a result of supreme optimization that kinda forsakes a lot for the purposes of killing greg quicker.

I can call that unintended behavior. Lemme ask you something real quick.

Why would Arrow Hurricane remove air damage, if we didn't expect you to have air damage to remove to begin with?

And following that, where does Arrow Storm gain air damage from?

[tribal sluice]

it being etw doesn’t take away the fact that it being a decrease in damage at all makes for a terribly designed ability

[empty owl]

when the damage dropoff is this great, optimisation isn't the primary concern

[kind sonnet]

• make windstorm required for hurricane
• buff the hawkeye major ID

it's that shrimple

nighthawk turned into a meme

[tribal sluice]

you can adjust the boltslinger tree overall so as to where we don’t have absurd damage creep but also to where players want to avoid windstorm

[empty owl]

not taking windstorm isn't for optimistation sake, it takes so much even your casual player who doesnt tryhard 10 cps or macro can feel it

[kind sonnet]

tbf -10% is quite noticeable

[empty owl]

when tested it was more like 14%

[kind sonnet]

i wouldn't care if it was like -3% but -10% is a concern

[earnest elbow]

Can guarantee not. That "massive" reduction isn't gonna be felt that hard by most people, cause ETW divzer isn't exactly the norm. This only is happening because you're able to skip Windstorm in a roundabout, unintended way.

[kind sonnet]

patch the skip then

[earnest elbow]

You are very much meant to take one after the other in terms of arrow storm upgrades, and the fact you can grab Hurricane without Windstorm is not intended, so it leads to unintended effects.

[tribal sluice]

I’m really confused are you arguing it should stay a downgrade or not

[earnest elbow]

I've said that I think that's what we should do multiple times already.

[empty owl]

if the skip is unintended please make windstorm NOT reduce the overall damage of arrow storm

if that change is implented i genuinely cannot imagine anyone going boltslinger over sharpshooter

[earnest elbow]

The only reason Windstorm reduces the overall damage of Arrow Storm is because you were never meant to be able to skip it, and doing so futzes with its progression. We aren't going to buff Arrow Hurricane or Windstorm to reflect an unintended behavior. Does Boltslinger probably deserve a bit more love? Yeah, it probably does. But this is not it. That precious precious 136% on top of an already absurd 960% isn't going to kill you to miss out on.

Especially since you were never meant to have it in the first place.

[empty owl]

sharp is already heavily favoured over bolt

in fact the only reason im referencing divzer so much is because its practically the only bow that uses bolt

[kind sonnet]

freedom?

[topaz haven]

Epoch who use all 3
Freedom who use all 3

[kind sonnet]

wait ppl play spellpoch?

[earnest elbow]

Have you noticed that the only thing I have argued against here is the points against windstorm? Not anything else? Did you notice I conceded about cross-compatibility and other details? Did you see that I said Boltslinger deserves some more attention?

[topaz haven]

Spell and hybrid are good for epoch yea

[empty owl]

i imagine if arrow hurricane were locked behind windstorm, that would be the final nail in bolt's coffin and sharp would be the sole tree used for archer

[earnest elbow]

I am saying Arrow Storm is not the problem here. Haven't said anything else about Boltslinger tree isn't in need of touch-ups.

[empty owl]

arrow storm is the primary focus of the bolt tree as a whole..

[earnest elbow]

And even then, did I not say earlier that I think Arrow Storm deserves either better accuracy or a removal of recoil til Arrow Hurricane???

[empty owl]

im fine with the recoil, elusive handles that fine

[worn trellis]

storm accuracy is not an issue! Guys!

[earnest elbow]

If that extra chunk of damage is the only reason anyone ever uses boltslinger(afaik our statistics on who plays what say otherwise), then there's way bigger problems at play with the class than just that.

[empty owl]

im also fine with storm accuracy since bolt is intended to be played riskier and closer to the enemy

[tribal sluice]

if the intention is for windstorm to be a mandatory part of the tree and it to help balance out arrow storm’s multiplier then you can still reduce the overall total multiplier of arrow storm with all upgrades whilst stay making windstorm not reduce damage or else the progression feels really terrible

[earnest elbow]

Windstorm doesn't reduce damage if you take the intended path on the tree.

[tribal sluice]

womp

[earnest elbow]

Arrow Storm starts out shooting 1 stream of 8 arrows...40% x8...320%
Nimble String adds 6 arrows per stream and cuts damage by 10%, so...30% x14...420%
Windstorm adds 1 stream and 2 arrows per stream and cuts damage by 10%. That's 16 arrows per stream, and 2 streams...so 20% x32...640%
Arrow Hurricane adds 2 streams and cuts damage by 5%. That's 16 arrows per stream, and 4 streams...so 15% x64...960%

[tribal sluice]

idek what intended path is so

[empty owl]

what is this "intended path"

[tribal sluice]

ya

[empty owl]

because if you go straight down boltslinger it will indeed reduce your damage

[earnest elbow]

The "intended path" is Literally Just Taking Windstorm

The only reason it "reduces" your damage is becaues you can skip it to access Arrow Hurricane in a way you weren't meant to. We have been over this.

[empty owl]

if you take windstorm alone and not hurricane it won't decrease your damage but then what the hell are you doing with the rest of your points

[earnest elbow]

I have already explained this to you earlier and I'm not gonna explain it again

You can see the progression written right there. Neither of them nerf your damage- it's only being able to take Arrow Hurricane early and thereby breaking the intended progression that is causing you to view Windstorm as a damage downgrade. If the tree hadn't been changed to allow you to do that in some way this would never even have come up.

I'm repeating myself.

[empty owl]

i understand but it is a downgrade when paired with hurricane

[earnest elbow]

Did you read a single word of what I said.

[kind sonnet]

doesn't look like it

[earnest elbow]

Are you comprehending the things I am saying to you? Are you thinking critically? I can't make this simpler. You're not stupid, I know you aren't.

[empty owl]

both of them increase your damage by themselves

[earnest elbow]

And stop.

[empty owl]

but they are both part of the same progression line.

[earnest elbow]

Say nothng more, because we have already established more than once that you were not meant to get Arrow Hurricane without Windstorm.

So saying that is stronger than taking Windstorm is not relevant here. It was not meant to happen. That it can appears to be an accident and not intended behavior.

[kind sonnet]

a question for IMs: do the admins fund your therapy sessions after interacting with #1019649786799996980?

[earnest elbow]

Let me repeat myself again-

Windstorm adds air damage. Arrow Hurricane removes air damage.

Why would Arrow Hurricane do this if we didn't expect you to have Windstorm before you took Arrow Hurricane?

Answer me that, before you say anything else.

[empty owl]

why on earth would the tree work in the manner that it:
first : buffs your damage
then: further down the line nerfs your damage for taking the original damage buff

[empty owl]

this is like if warrior tree had:

[earnest elbow]

I'm done. You're not listening to what I'm saying. You have to be deliberately ignoring me at this point, so there's no point in me continuing to talk.

[empty owl]

buff uppercut damage!!
then further down the line, Nerf uppercut damage if you took the first buff!!

like what in the broken intended progression

[worn trellis]

point that has been made, discussed, and answered so many numerous times

[agile umbra]

god this reminds me constructive feedback is chaotic

[tribal sluice]

i get what selvut is saying but honestly it’s just kinda further proving how terrible the progression of upgrades is

[tribal sluice]

it can still be designed to be an up close attacker but even then the accuracy can still be too terrible

[empty owl]

theres 2 buffs but when used in tandem becomes weaker than just 1 buff. and it is intended by the game that you use them together. how does this make sense

[tribal sluice]

and I think the accuracy even for what it’s meant to be sucks ass

god how the fuck has recoil survived over one and half years at this point

genuinely the most terrible mechanic ever added to wynncraft

[empty owl]

recoil becomes managable with elusive imo

[tribal sluice]

i will not make compromises for a terrible mechanic

[worn trellis]

duat is a lobbier

[empty owl]

recoil has its benefits like being able to fly

[tribal sluice]

i don’t give a fuck about flying if anything I think it’s silly that it exists as well

make it an optional node if the weirdos so desperately want to keep flying

but I’d probably not even add that

[earnest elbow]

...let me get everything out at once, and then I am going to go.

[empty owl]

is he still trying to push that 2 buffs = a nerf is the way to go..

[brave gorge]

waiting for warrior nerfs (im tired of seeing kera conduit ringlet capricorn hero with rainbow powders brainless standing in the most dangerous possible position in every single tna/tcc run and still making it out alive with every enemy dead)

[agile umbra]

me when seeing epok is standing where cata do:

[brave gorge]

warrior can macro the whole thing...

that difference alone makes me

cata needed to move somewhat and learn some basic mana management (still op af though)

[agile umbra]

me when autojump script (totally legal)

[brave gorge]

at least shotgun mobs had a chance to blow you up, warrior though

[earnest elbow]

I agree that boltslinger needs adjustments. Cross-compatibility is a problem that all the archer trees have, and some of the nerfs it's received are probably not that great overall. Maybe its power needs to be shifted around some.

But being able to take Arrow Hurricane before an ability that was intended as a prerequisite, and saying that its damage should be balanced around that unintended behavior as if it were intended and then complaining about how unintuitive and annoying it is to do that in the first place...have you not considered that the reason it's so unintuitive and annoying is because it was never intended to begin with? That this was unintended behavior? Something that slipped through the cracks?

Arrow Storm's buffs all add more arrows and reduce damage to compensate so it doesn't go absolutely insane. When you get to a certain point though, you can't reduce damage as much, otherwise you just demolish everything. If Arrow Hurricane removed 10% damage like Nimble String and Windstorm, then it would break even on its damage- as such, its damage reduction had to be lower. You can understand this, I'm certain.

Because of this, it also follows that if Arrow Hurricane's damage reduction is smaller, it's because you were intended to have a set of damages that was also smaller.

100% x1 hit is a starting point.
60% x2 hits is buff.
20% x3 hits is a nerf.

Arrow Storm takes that concept and extrapolates it to larger amounts of hits and smaller numbers.

40% x8 hits is a starting point.
30% x14 hits is a buff.
20% x32 hits is a buff.
10% x 64 hits breaks even, and is a nerf due to accuracy and hit requirements.

So, in order to have Arrow Hurricane work, its damage reduction via the planned progression had to be smaller than the others.

40% x8 hits is a starting point.
30% x14 hits is a buff.
20% x32 hits is a buff.
15% x 64 hits is a buff.

See how the math works? Because that is just how math works. The smaller the damage per shot, the more shots you have to shoot in order to make up for it. If we were to take this even further with some mythical fifth arrow storm upgrade that cuts damage by another 5%, we would need to add least 1.5x the amount of arrows in order for it to be a buff- as 15% x64 = 10% x96, just like 20% x32 = 10% x64.

As such, you're meant to take one before you take the other. The layout of the boltslinger tree before made this a requirement, and it's a sensible one. You're trying to say this doesn't make sense, because now you can take a super roundabout way to avoid one of these effects and mess with the progression in ways that weren't meant to happen, and that's downright mad.

I've said my piece and I'm done with this topic. I'm not coming back to it. I'll reiterate- I agree that boltslinger needs adjustments. Cross-compatibility is a problem that all the archer trees have, and some of the nerfs it's received are probably not that great overall. Maybe its power needs to be shifted around some.

But you saying Arrow Storm's progression doesn't make sense is the statement that really doesn't make sense here, and continuing to argue for it is just...why?

[agile umbra]

Me: Im trying to charge up my corruption! What should I do?

Shotgun Mobs:

[agile umbra]

what

[empty owl]

hey man ive been listening to you the whole time.

have you been listening to me?

[brave gorge]

given how you can charge corruption at a double rate, its very easy to achieve full corrupt

[agile umbra]

brother just say you dont want more storm damage -> nerf arrow hurricane

[empty owl]

windstorm and arrow hurricane are a pair they're supposed to go together, it makes sense, bolt progression points towards it

however. you've just been spitting your points about how it should be while ignoring the actual application

when put together, windstorm and arrow hurricane result in less damage than just arrow hurricane alone

how is it ok for 2 arrow storm buffs which are INTENDED to be paired with one another to output less damage than just one of the buffs alone?

[agile umbra]

cspamming at dernapen is one of the funniest thing to do in tna

[earnest elbow]

Yep, you aren't reading a damn thing I'm saying.

[brave gorge]

that one basically beggign to god dernapian doesnt kill you before you kill it

[earnest elbow]

I literally have already explained this so many times. You just pretend you do not see it.

[agile umbra]

on gobb

[modern spire]

Because you are never meant to have the one that causes the first one to be a "downgrade" with said downgrade
If arrow hurricane requires windstorm, it wouldn't matter if it's technically better to not have it, because that can't happen anymore

[empty owl]

i have definitely read it. besides you cant really give your 2 cents about how it should be without taking any feedback

[earnest elbow]

Because of the math which I spelled out for you that you are IGNORING.

[empty owl]

windstorm increases your dmg, progressing down, arrow hurricane increases your dmg further. this seems fine until you realise hurricane alone outdmgs both of them combined??

[earnest elbow]

If you looked at the MATH which I EXPLAINED ALREADY you would understand why this happens!!

[brave gorge]

i mean why people treat the difference is when you are using a meta weapon for boltslinger in tna (divzer) and it forces air conversion much means you incur air defence, rather if you go for the meta bolt tree you wouldn't get air conversion in the first place, which for greg is absolutely horrible

[modern spire]

How is this a problem if you have to have both
They all become objective upgrades to take if you have to take all of them in order

[empty owl]

thats true!

but can you listen selvut? or can you only give your 2 cents and block your ears

[tribal sluice]

i wish arrow storm didn’t just spray everywhere and had a uniform spread like before 2.0

[agile umbra]

you still lose damage if you use strati as well which is crazy as well

[empty owl]

hurricane alone does more damage than hurricane with windstorm.

[earnest elbow]

Should I just repost every damn message I've sent here? I have addressed the hows and whys of it already. It happens because that is how math works.

[empty owl]

well say you have it your way and they lock hurricane behind windstorm.

[earnest elbow]

Y'know, as it was to begin with.

[empty owl]

the intended tree path

what happens to boltslinger then?

[modern spire]

People who enjoy it continue to play it

Unless all they care about is meta damage

[earnest elbow]

It loses a tiny bit of damage, regains access to all that utility it's losing out on by pathing around Windstorm, and not much else.

I ONCE AGAIN ASK IF YOU HAVE PAID ATTENTION TO MY SAYING BOLTSLINGER DESERVES ATTENTION ASIDE FROM THIS.

[tribal sluice]

i don’t really like recycling

ideally you’d be landing as many arrows from arrow storm as you can

[earnest elbow]

If you hadn't been blatantly ignoring what I was saying, this conversation would have ended like an hour or more ago.

[empty owl]

?

[tribal sluice]

so missed arrows will come from escape artist and arrow rain and inherently you’re still spending mana to try to gain more mana

[empty owl]

ive been listening and i understand your point of view

[earnest elbow]

I have said that you have points regarding the rest of Boltslinger's shortcomings. Literally the only thing I'm arguing against is your nonsense point that skipping an intended part of the tree lets you get more damage by a technicality, due to how multipliers and math have to fucking work for the universe to exist.

[empty owl]

that's a pretty fatal flaw if you ask me

[earnest elbow]

Stop talking.

[empty owl]

🙁

[earnest elbow]

40x10=400.
20x20=400.
10x40=400.
5x80=400.
2x200=400.

This all makes sense, right? That math makes sense? Please fucking tell me it makes sense??

Just bear with me on this example. Don't bring ANYTHING ELSE up.

[empty owl]

i really would like to know how someone with such a large ego got into wynncraft content team.

do you communicate with your peers by berating them and repeating yourself several times

[earnest elbow]

Answer the question I am begging you

[empty owl]

ofc the basic maths you have provided makes sense

[earnest elbow]

YES, OKAY. WE ARE ON THE SAME TRACK NOW

Arrow Storm fundamentally as an ability is about shooting more arrows. To keep its damage in check, the more arrows it shoots, the less damage each arrow deals! This makes sense, right?

[empty owl]

yes

[earnest elbow]

And as you can see, the less damage each shot deals, the more shots have to be fired to make up for that deficit, because 5 is a smaller fraction of 40 than 20 is! Right?

[empty owl]

yes!

[brave gorge]

another unfortunate thing is that you will incur more elemental defences if you go for windstorm hurricane, but thats just a boltslinger general weakness

[earnest elbow]

So! The later upgrades to Arrow Storm cannot have a linear damage reduction and addition of arrows shot, because each one is supposed to be stronger than the previous one!

Since 5 is a smaller fraction of 40 than 10 or 15 or 20, it has to shoot even more arrows per upgrade to make up for this!

The damage from the previous upgrade has to be taken into account when thinking of how many arrows the next upgrade adds, and how much of a reduction is incurred!

[empty owl]

thats true

[earnest elbow]

So!!

Knowing that!! That all being true and sensible!!

That being just how math works!!!

[median crow]

Congratulations you reached a point and looked like an absolute clown on the way there

[earnest elbow]

You understand all the fundamental points but are somehow drawing a completely different conclusion!!!!

And I cannot! Understand! Why!

[empty owl]

well have you thought about how having 2 arrow amount increasing arrow damage decreasing buffs in the same progression line is problematic

[earnest elbow]

I can't say as I have, outside of this situation, where you're able to access an upgrade that is trying to account for a previous upgrade that you are inadvertently allowed to skip! If it were not skippable this problem would never have occurred!

[empty owl]

a system like this makes the superior buff (arrow hurricane) alone do more damage than both combined

[earnest elbow]

And PRAY TELL WHY THAT IS.

[empty owl]

above math ^

[median crow]

I think you've missed the point of all of this-the point of this was to say that because math exists and archers are clever, we worked out that certain nodes reduce overall damage-- so what can we do to make the system make more sense

[earnest elbow]

You have ALL the puzzle pieces you need! Put them together, and then ask yourself if maybe, JUST MAYBE, LIKE I HAVE BEEN SAYING THIS ENTIRE TIME, getting the later upgrade before the previous upgrade is REALLY INTENDED OR NOT.

[median crow]

Also you've gone completely insane, there's also that

[empty owl]

yeah you have

arguing with the heart more than the brain right now

[drowsy ivy]

Tbf the point they have made their point multiple times

[median crow]

I'm inclined for your health to tell you to stop but honestly I'm getting a lot from this too so please

[earnest elbow]

I have been arguing with the numbers and original intent from the start! The only "heart" you're seeing is me being absolutely fed up with you gracefully dancing around the point like you're some kind of olympic gold medalist at mental gymnastics!!

[empty owl]

youre explaining the math of why the 2 together should do less than just arrow hurricane but have you thought about whether or not that should be the case?

[drowsy ivy]

Yes it should be

[median crow]

Literally what are they dancing around

[tribal sluice]

@languid scarab

[earnest elbow]

I have explained why mathematically it HAS TO BE!

[drowsy ivy]

Because it doesn't matter if one is the prerequisite for the other

[empty owl]

im saying why have the 2 in the game in the same tree at all?

[median crow]

We are in agreement. Math works, the system exists because math is real, and their point is that we should make work better

[empty owl]

if one is going to make the other worse.

[median crow]

Fr

[earnest elbow]

I have explained why this has occurred in the most basic of terms possible! I have explained the flaw that has allowed this to occur and said point blank the simplest solution, but you're so obsessed over this extra not even 150% damage that you're ignoring all logic and reason to try and maintain keeping!!

[empty owl]

imagine if windstorm was literally just deleted from the game

[median crow]

Hurray 8 more ability points

[empty owl]

genuinely a detriment to the archer tree in every way

[empty owl]

and relieves selvut of this ultra headache they seem to be having

[agile umbra]

bad for early game

idk that is what game development tells me about

[median crow]

I mean how many other archetypes have nodes that only work in early

[agile umbra]

backstab, arcane transfer, trapper, light bender

[empty owl]

selvut let me make up a situation for you

[earnest elbow]

Let me make up a situation for you.

[median crow]

Light bender as a whole... Mage is takin it

[earnest elbow]

The situation is me going to bed.

[agile umbra]

brother my memory loss kicked in 💀

[median crow]

He closes the laptop lid, makes tea and doesn't explode

[empty owl]

imagine if there was another quad bash further down warrior tree and taking the first quad bash lowered the damage of the 2nd quad bash

what would be the point of having the 2 quad bashes

[drowsy ivy]

they stack and you get 8 bashes?

[median crow]

And do less overall

[empty owl]

yeah but the damage output ends up being less than just having 1 quad bash

[agile umbra]

one clear exception is acrobat bc you need a clear mana sustain to fly ie weightless

[empty owl]

which is what im relating to arrow hurricane and windstorm

[drowsy ivy]

yeah but if the second one requires the first (which was the suggested change) this is literally not an issue

[empty owl]

this selvut goober talks mad crap for someone that doesn't even touch boltslinger btw

[median crow]

If you didn't change any numbers and made hurricane require windstorm you would have a lot of unhappy boltslingers

[agile umbra]

literally 2.0.2

[empty owl]

if this guy's vision was enacted bolt would be receiving an effective ~14% damage nerf to arrow storm without compensation while already being out favoured by sharpshooter.

[median crow]

Tbf though it might as well be a divz nerf cause who tf is going full bolt but divz

[agile umbra]

spring

[median crow]

What??

[empty owl]

nuh uh

[agile umbra]

trift bbal spring uses bolt tree

[brave gorge]

so this mostly affects those that dont have air% or dont build air (divzer), the damage differemce when elemental defences are incurred is much larger, using a typical divzer bolt build.

https://hppeng-wynn.github.io/builder?v=6#8_0uB0DP0Je0Lg0TQCR-19C9CA29iA2A29m910ONCR-19C9CA29iA2A29n910QS1B2O0e+Psy1g000010036C0z0z0+0+0+0+0-l-hsoNk20
WynnBuilder build:

Nychthemeron
Delirium
Chaos-Woven Greaves
Electro Mage's Boots
Draoi Fair
CR-19C9CA29iA2A29m91
Diamond Static Bracelet
CR-19C9CA29iA2A29n91
Divzer [t6t6t6]

against greg who has 150 ele def

with a standard bolt like this, ~169k storms. With elemental defences considered, you lose 6.3k dmg total

if you swap to the windstorm tree, dmg for arrow storm drops to ~146k, elemental defence incurred means you lose 19.2k dmg because of more arrows + now you also deal air damage that the enemy has ele def to

this can also work the other way around if the boss has elemental weakness,but in meta content (tna), boss has air defence in the first place

[median crow]

The more u know

[agile umbra]

ppl use 2 crafted rings

[brave gorge]

so going for windstorm further amplifies the strength/weakness of boltslinger (abusing elemental def), which in today meta is uh lol

[agile umbra]

i dont use dfair

[median crow]

Who is people

[empty owl]

me

wait i use 1 craft

[median crow]

Crafted L

[agile umbra]

#1 divzer bolt

[empty owl]

crafted ring is much more powerful than olive or photon

[agile umbra]

i use 2 rings dstatic bracelet and staccato

[median crow]

Imagine needing scrap. Get me my 8% damage ring

[brave gorge]

eh i prefer comfort, just a preference

[agile umbra]

thats fine

[median crow]

Also I do not like farming my own scrap and buying it is so bad since price rise

[brave gorge]

but general tldr is that forcing elemental conversion on an archetype that is heavily affected by ele defences in content where ele defs are everywhere is um

[agile umbra]

isnt rn 16 each

used to be 18 or smth

and ion care much bc every run i used crafteds is still profit

[median crow]

Yesterday or 2 days ago was 18

[brave gorge]

fluctuates a lot, sometimes can be as high as 30e each.

but if you are champion you dont care about scrap anyways

[median crow]

It's weird cause it's realistically 6 e per scrap to make

[median crow]

Huh

[agile umbra]

that is inflation worse than one in germany in 1920-24

[agile umbra]

pet p2w mechanic

[brave gorge]

totally fair mechanic

[empty owl]

free repair?

[brave gorge]

you can scrap unid boxes

[empty owl]

oh

[rustic ridge]

totally balanced
trust

[median crow]

Oh yeah they do jobs

[brave gorge]

the difference between hero and champ is huge

[median crow]

It also is in terms of money so

[rustic ridge]

(i mean its also double the price sooo)

[median crow]

Anyway just to circle back to the point

What do we all think needs to change about current tree

[agile umbra]

idc rn it is decent

couldve been better

[empty owl]

relocation or removal of windstorm?

dont see a point in 2 abilities that do the same thing but one of them does it better and having the 1st one nerfs the overall damage of the 2nd one

[median crow]

Imo I want requirement of windstorm for hurricane and a bit more neutral on hurricane

Bring it to around damage of current hurricane but without feeling like shit

[agile umbra]

i dont want windstorm + hurricane to lose damage

[empty owl]

another thing i mentioned in the og post is cheaper bomb 2 being moved away and inaccessible to bolt.

[agile umbra]

thats it

[brave gorge]

remove forced conversion of air 💪

[empty owl]

cheaper bomb 2 used to be accessible and the change of such makes cycling spells a lot less sustainable

[agile umbra]

but windstorm doesnt make sense! it should be storm then

[drowsy ivy]

elemental conversions are kinda wacky anyway

[median crow]

Yeah I think the dual node shouldn't be as big of a nerf, aside from element conversion

[brave gorge]

or make base arrow storm have air so you wont have this jargon

[median crow]

Please no..

[agile umbra]

tbf that is a good idea

[median crow]

Wait is current storm base thunder conversion

[brave gorge]

base arrow storm is just 30% neutral 10% thunder

[median crow]

In which case yes less thunder more air

[median crow]

I am not trying to inflate the value of my spring

Purely in the interest of the people

[empty owl]

windstorm takes away 9% neutral 3% thunder..

[agile umbra]

9 is fucking overkill

[empty owl]

definitely

hurricane for comparison

[median crow]

Btw how does it interact with nighthawk

Is the dmg scaling on the major id final and unchangable

Or is it affected by the dmg changes applied by hurri and windstorm

[agile umbra]

mID usually is final iirc

[median crow]

So hawk only cares about number of arrows and streams

Omg guys the edge case where hurri and wind is always better

[agile umbra]

“devs think it is too op or sum shit”

[modern spire]

What I understand Selvut to be saying is:

• make getting hurricane without windstorm impossible so that "being a downgrade" is irrelevant as the strongest possible combo becomes all 3 nodes
• compensate boltslinger in other ways besides arrow storm

[agile umbra]

the 2 one is kinda hard

[median crow]

I'd be happy if the changes actually meant something

But archer is kind of the most forgotten class so

[agile umbra]

shaman

[modern spire]

The compensation might not be damage though, as it could be general cohesion improvements which make it easier to do your theoretical damage

[median crow]

Our newest mythic was literally just a recycled one they already had

[modern spire]

Or mana, that'd be very appreciated

[median crow]

We have 2 archer specific major ids

[brave gorge]

all i see archer is just epoch epoch epoch epoch antball epoch epoch epoch epoch epoch epoch epoch epoch epoch epoch epoch epoch divzer epoch epoch epoch

[agile umbra]

where gma gone 😭

[tribal sluice]

recycling, take it or leave it.

[median crow]

I have not seen a gma in AGES

[modern spire]

Archer feels forgotten because everything has been stagnant; none of them are done being balanced

[median crow]

I only say this cause of major ids mainly like we did see something with epoch change and upcoming spring change

[brave gorge]

the few gma users out there fighting against the epochs 😔

[tribal sluice]

archer is definitely not the most forgotten class but at this point pretty much everything is forgotten

[agile umbra]

the only gma users are like those 2 people

one of them is neko

[brave gorge]

neko and puzzle

[median crow]

I'm the only spellpoch I've seen in tna also

[brave gorge]

those two I can only remember, the rest are epochs

[empty owl]

something i talked about in the og thing

[median crow]

Or increase the spell value!!

[empty owl]

i want cheaper bomb 2 to be accessible to boltslinger again

[median crow]

Give me buffs I want to use my disso more

[empty owl]

because rn its at the bottom of sharp

[median crow]

Imagine if archer got manastorm

[agile umbra]

absolutely not bc it is not relevant to hurricane windstorm issue

[empty owl]

it helps the mana sustain

[empty owl]

i didnt just mention this..

also mentioned how frenzy only gives 70% now forcing archer to build delirium and other movespeed items rather than dps

[median crow]

I'm not that unhappy with frenzy but I'm very fucking unhappy with the insult that is escape route

[empty owl]

yeah

[median crow]

Who the fuck wants to nerf their frenzy to 35

[empty owl]

but before frenzy nerf you could take like bete noire or something else that does more dmg

[rocky pier]

Frenzy was ridiculously strong before

[median crow]

It also made sharp feel like ASS to play

[modern spire]

You can if you don't skip windstorm

[empty owl]

true but it has been over halved in movespeed since it dropped

[median crow]

Cause you either take frenzy and something that kills ur focus or walk fkin slow

[rocky pier]

I think 70% is a very fair number

[empty owl]

?

its at the bottom of sharp tree bro theres not even a connection

[modern spire]

https://hppeng-wynn.github.io/builder?v=6#8_2SG2SH2SI2SJ2SK2SL2SM2SN0Vq00000000001g000000z0z0+0+0+0+0-l-xibhN0

Cheaper bomb is the lower one

More focus 2 is above it

[empty owl]

yeah.. geyser stomp + snow storm + windstorm damage nerf does not seem worth it

[median crow]

I feel like snow storm should be an ability that you see working

[empty owl]

yup

[median crow]

Geyser would be fun if the damage wasn't fuckin stupid

[modern spire]

Yes but point is cheaper bomb 2 is accessable

[rocky pier]

Not every archetype needs to have easy access to every -cost node

[empty owl]

i think it should be higher tbh

[median crow]

Or if it also pushed away instead of pushing upwards

Push away and I'll pick it every time

[tribal sluice]

70% is still pretty absurd

[rocky pier]

Grapple hook geyser would be less garbage

[tribal sluice]

your class has speed 2 built into it and keeping frenzy up is ridiculously easy

[rocky pier]

Honestly yeah especially since archer already has windy feet

[tribal sluice]

you do not need more frenzy speed

[empty owl]

every archer build has to use a slot for the honorary movespeed item though..

[brave gorge]

remove frenzy

[tribal sluice]

I’d legit make it like 40% if it were up to me

[empty owl]

you don't see other classes needing the movespeed item slot

[rocky pier]

Almost every other build also needs ws?

Should archer just not need ws at all?

[median crow]

Also hate that leap isn't included in the assassin hop major id

Needlessly cruel

[rocky pier]

This is simply not true

[empty owl]

apart from shaman :/

[modern spire]

Supposedly this is being changed so yay

[rocky pier]

This is also not true

[median crow]

OMG

New major id guys we have 4!!!!!

[drowsy ivy]

to take insid 3 you need to build ws for shaman

[empty owl]

well, id like an example of builds that require the move speed slot

[median crow]

We are now have only half the number of other classes major ids

[tribal sluice]

you’re just yapping at this point

[empty owl]

no but fr

[rocky pier]

Bash scream thrunda, bash scream idol both use it

[median crow]

If ur not archer or a flying class and you don't build ws for tna ur getting juggled and true dmg murdered

[empty owl]

i haven't seen an assassin warrior or mage build that has the "move speed slot"

[tribal sluice]

why do u think that is

[median crow]

Yeah but they use items that have more than ws

[drowsy ivy]

every mage build apart from warp has to build ws

[rocky pier]

Like every bash scream build that isn’t hero uses deli

Other than alka

Fatal can use deli as well

[brave gorge]

shade kinda needs ws

[modern spire]

Monster lightbender is one
https://hppeng-wynn.github.io/builder?v=6#8_06W0DP0LA0wh0EE0K00Jn0KG0Qn1816-E2M001g00001005iO0z0z0+0+0+0+0-zZddJhSk5

[median crow]

Fatal having TP cost red and it still needing ws is so dumb I wish tp was usable in kiting

[brave gorge]

hero casually giving effectively 92% ws (base + vehement + spirit of rabbit)

[empty owl]

sounds like only thrunda and monster need this slot

im saying all of archer needs to build walkspeed though

[rocky pier]

And idol and alka and ashock and fatal

[tribal sluice]

you’re joking right

[empty owl]

idol build is chargespam

[rocky pier]

Bash scream idol needs it

[median crow]

I mean my spellpoch sharp builds around zero ws natural because I use escape to kite

[empty owl]

bash scream idol is not real

[rocky pier]

It’s actually not even that much worse tbf

Who would’ve guessed that the rage build does the most damage???

[empty owl]

well the good mythics at least dont need walkspeed (idol cata warp)

[modern spire]

Archer can get away with the least walk speed items of any class because frenzy and stormy alone is enough to kite greg, you can jump and abuse recoil to go backwards faster, and you have the one movement spell that doesn't require you to turn around

[empty owl]

these 3 require 0 walkspeed items..

[modern spire]

Holding Greg in one spot is kind of an exception to everything

[rocky pier]

Warp is a walk speed item

[modern spire]

It completely changes the dynamic of what a team needs

[empty owl]

yeah it doesnt need to waste armour slots to compensate

[median crow]

(fuck acro bmonk)

[rocky pier]

Yeah instead it wastes a weapon slot

[empty owl]

haha

[median crow]

I did see a combat warp in tna they do exist

[rocky pier]

Warp is the most popular combat weapon for mage???

[modern spire]

Ok I did forget about bmonk and acrobat, but point is archer is not more in need of walk speed than other classes

(that title goes to mage and its 0 walk speed assistance in the tree)

[median crow]

Real and true

[empty owl]

👆

frenzy nerf isnt that big anyway since delirium is such a good item

[median crow]

Nirv doesn't

[empty owl]

but if it didnt exist that would really suck

[median crow]

The evolved is real and true everyone

Rejoice

[modern spire]

Delirium does get a lot harder to fit into a build if you don't play etw though

[rocky pier]

You only need deli if you want to take insid 3

[empty owl]

yea and doing greg is like the one thing archer does anyway..

[tribal sluice]

ur weird

[feral gyro]

trust me archer is pretty much always just storm bomb bomb with occasionally shield usage dpending on whether you have gangels or dog
boltslinger and sharpshooter act very similarly when you are fighting one single target
trapper is just incredibly inconsistent

[feral gyro]

you are incredibly mistaken if you think archer is fine when trapper is a thing
check the sticky bomb thread if you haven't heard my rants already
https://discord.com/channels/143852930036924417/1225432864632475688

[feral gyro]

this does not excuse an archetype being incredibly weakened just because you want to invest more into thay archetype
there shouldn't be a definite hierarchy for archetypes or else trapper and sharpshooter would both be the absolute best because they demand more skills and thinking in some situations

[empty owl]

one thing i didnt touch on earlier which i think i should have..

[quick charm]

Holy fuck what happened

[empty owl]

heated debate with selvut

[quick charm]

Selvut going on a fucking rampage because "Wahhh ETW brainrot players are complaining about a 10% dmg loss"

[feral gyro]

I wouldn't care that much about such an aspect of boltslinger when it is so easy to deal damage to a single target
there should be options to allow powerful crowd control for boltslinger players (I do not necessarily mean great DPS)

[quick charm]

First off that level of bias shown from those messages is insane from head im
Obviously bias is unavoidable like I play ETW in tna but jesus christ

And second bro wtf is this argument
"Hurricane without windstorm does more dmg than hurricane and windstorm"
"Hurricane shouldn't be able to be taken without windstorm you ETW tna brainrot"
Brother you aren't AT team

[feral gyro]

dev time lmfao

[empty owl]

whats head IM

[quick charm]

And then bro explains like 3rd grade math acting like the person he's arguing against can't comprehend basic multiplication for 30 minutes

That kinda says something about head im!

[empty owl]

why is somebody in such a high balancing position so... erratic

[modern spire]

I...don't think etw was a factor in what he meant to be saying
I believe he was trying to say windstorm lowering final damage doesn't matter because it's not a scenario that was supposed to be possible due to how the math for abilities has to work to make each upgrade an upgrade when taken consecutively

[quick charm]

Well it clearly is actually possible so the whole "this isn't intended" argument doesn't apply because we know how long it takes for wynncraft to update

[modern spire]

Well it takes just as long for an update preventing the unintended tree to be made as one which balances it to not be optimal

If hurricane without windstorm is impossible, it need not be considered for comparisons to other trees

[quick charm]

I suppose

Like yeah I get Selvut's point

The whole argument is just the two of them arguing different points except one treats the other like a moron

[empty owl]

selvut was not being very nice

[feral gyro]

I don't know if there have been silly oversights in this game but this would be understandable if there were more alarming oversights
this is just an idea

[modern spire]

I believe Selvut got annoyed with how it seemed what he was trying to say about how the hurricane with windstorm won't matter for comparisons seemed to be getting completely ignored

[feral gyro]

yea it doesn't look like any of the two was changing the apparoach
and I don't want to read all that
but I think single target dps improvements matter very little to bolt
I want crowd control boltslinger abilities with reasonable costs

[modern spire]

He was trying to explain why the math had to be like that too much I think

[feral gyro]

I think it's very justifiable to have windstorm be a prerequisite to hurricane in terms of game design concept
actual damage values and the amount of growth that comes along with levelling is a separate matter

[empty owl]

oh this guy has great influence over the ability trees in the game 🙁

not reassuring

[modern spire]

Anything ability trees also has to go through Xavier and Salted

[quick charm]

I mean much more than the average wynnmain tbf

[drowsy ivy]

selvut just gets maximum hate for any change because he is the one who does the most communication with the playerbase

[feral gyro]

I could care less about whatever 10% single target dps you may get
but wouldn't you like some cool crowd control options for bolt? I vividly remember the suffering I had with boltslinger...

[modern spire]

And any discussion about how something could be changed tends to cause very heated debates

[empty owl]

i mean bolt crowd control isnt bad..

[feral gyro]

what abitlies about bolt even grant crowd control?

[modern spire]

You get bomb if you can afford it, that's your crowd control

And pretty much only divzer does that on bolt

[empty owl]

shrapnel bomb.. also not bolt but arrow strom + byrophyte roots

[modern spire]

Still way less damage than you can focus on one target so it struggles

[feral gyro]

those are pretty much just direct damage upgrades to aoe attacks not crowd control

[stable agate]

You can actually still get homing it’s just annoying

[empty owl]

homing isnt worth it at all

[modern spire]

Also if you get overwhelmed by too many enemies, elusive starts getting disabled and you get flown around

[empty owl]

idk i havent had problems with clearing large numbers of mobs

[modern spire]

Do you use divzer?

[empty owl]

yeah

what else is bolt even viable on ..

[modern spire]

That's why: sheer damage

[feral gyro]

I don't think using arrow storm directly triggers flight
you do have to use it in a specific mannar...
I would not consider it an official ability

[empty owl]

if you're not using divz or duat flying freedom there's no point in using bolt anyway

[modern spire]

Doesn't have to be optimal, people will use other bows with bolt if they like the archetype

[quick charm]

Use ignis with 6/8 craft

[modern spire]

I use Ignis because I like defense and bolt because I like bolt

[feral gyro]

alr imma head out

[empty owl]

yea bolt is more fun than sharp it just sucks that its worse in most cases

[feral gyro]

I have spoken enough for today

[empty owl]

goodbye

[stable agate]

Archer tree is just annoying in general

[empty owl]

it was just more convenient when sharp was in the middle

[stable agate]

I find Sharpshooter tree worse though because if I don’t want Twain’s Arc crapping on me everytime I use a powder I gotta go all the way around it

[modern spire]

Sharp being next to bolt makes no conceptual sense though
It might be better for now, but of things get proper attention, it will be better to have trapper in the middle

Sharp is about nothing missing, bolt is about throwing so much shit out that some of it inevitably will

[stable agate]

Yea if Archer tree got the proper look at it needs then this wouldn’t be an issue, like seriously a fundamental upgrade shouldn’t crap on your dps

[feral gyro]

the only problem with sharpshooter is probably just how underwhelming twain's arc can get and how it can become the only component of gameplay with occasional quake usage or something
trapper is incredibly inconsistent
and boltslinger does not deserve to have such weak crowd control imo

[stable agate]

Legitimately why does one of the arrow storm upgrades make it worse

I saw a CT defending it too, WHY?

[modern spire]

Because skipping it wasn't supposed to be possible

[empty owl]

the phasing beam?

[modern spire]

If skipping it was impossible, the best tree would be having all 3

[feral gyro]

I still can't give a shit about windstorm decreasing the dps by a bit I agree with Selvut but the repeated way to make a statement was not pretty

[feral gyro]

what?

[empty owl]

thought the guy was talking about sharpshooter

[stable agate]

Selvut just is terrible to argue with sometimes as they can be quite rude with their points and unwilling to compromise at all

[feral gyro]

nah im out man I've said what I've said
good luck eveybody

[empty owl]

bye

[stable agate]

Like ability shards

[empty owl]

the dmg decrease is nothing insignificant though, as i displayed before, it's worse than taking off 2 damage oriented crafted accessories

[modern spire]

But why does that matter if that's not a situation which can come up? (Assuming hurricane is made to need windstorm)

[quick charm]

Because then people will compare it to the past when it was possible and be mad about a 14% decrease in dmg

[modern spire]

So ideally we get simultaneous compensation elsewhere in the tree

[empty owl]

i would like to see what compensation we get for lowering archer dmg further

[stable agate]

Not really a bad class, just not that great

[empty owl]

well it is outclassed in everything this game has to offer

[modern spire]

Ideally mana I'd say; it's bolt's biggest issue when building with anything except divzer

[empty owl]

well i said in the original post i wanted arrow bomb 2 to be more accessible to bolt tree

[modern spire]

If you do take windstorm and go for it, I'm not sure what else you'd spend the gained points on that would feel so essential to get

[stable agate]

Boltslinger end of tree doesn’t feel worth imo

Like Panoptes is neat but everything else doesn’t feel worthwhile

[empty owl]

elusive is good but i dont get anything related to guardian angels

[quick charm]

Me when geyser stomp is at end of tree

[modern spire]

Geyser stomp could be cool if there was a way to trigger it on-demand (without taking grapple)

[empty owl]

guardian angels dmg is so insignificant

[quick charm]

And elusive is just something that should be default ong

[empty owl]

real

[stable agate]

Is Geyser stomp so good it’s worth all the points?

[empty owl]

geyser stomp is completely useless

[quick charm]

It's worth 0 points 🔥

[stable agate]

I like lack of Elusive purely for mobility but in combat I’d love Elusive

[quick charm]

No one ever has used geyser stomp and no one ever will use geyser stomp unless it's like 800% dps

[modern spire]

I've tried to use geyser stomp in tree room to deposit souls by launching crabs near me up but it's too hard to flat escape that consistently

[empty owl]

unless geyser stomp does like 3x the dmg of arrow bomb it will be useless

[stable agate]

Archer used to be more fun when you were throwing up arrow volleys in enemy’s faces for 2 mana and no recoil

So pre-2.0

[empty owl]

i thought that already was the cycle

[stable agate]

Bolt’s recoil and bomb self damage is fun for mobility but makes actual combat really unfun

[stable agate]

Storm Guardian Angels is better for mana

[brave gorge]

what if geyser stomp made escape faster

[stable agate]

What.

[empty owl]

uhh

bomb bomb ... bomb bomb ... bomb bomb

ohh

[stable agate]

But bomb is so expensive why spam it twice?

[empty owl]

wait isnt this horrible for mana

storm costs less than bomb due to cheaper bomb 2 being unobtainable

[stable agate]

Lack of sustain plus Bomb Self Damage and Storm Recoil makes Archer unrewarding and annoying to play

I remember Duat had a Storm Angels cycle that was barely sustainable

Does he still use Freedom Stardew?

[brave gorge]

tfw angel dps poop

[empty owl]

i see storm bomb cycle being used the most

[limber oracle]

saving this thread for later reading (comedy)

[empty owl]

guardian angels dps suck hard

[stable agate]

What’s so comedic

[empty owl]

theres no noticable difference when testing with angels vs without angels on a dummy

[stable agate]

Like I just want Archer to be fun to use again

[empty owl]

it is fun for me, just wish it could be better

i didnt know so many people had a problem with the recoil, elusive being a thing and all

[stable agate]

Shaprshooter Crep Ray feels terrible because of the lack of audio or visual feedback, Arrow Bomb feels terrible because of Self Damage (especially with bouncing bomb oh lord), and Arrow Storm feels terrible with the recoil unless you heavily invest into Elusive which isn’t even active all times

And then lack of sustain compared to the spellspam archer I enjoyed playing before

[feral gyro]

guys I'm back with ideas
there should be a damage increasing mechanic that is like focus/winded/mana bank/corrupted/blood pool for boltslinger that relates to its themes
I think it should be tied with the speed at which you travel or the amount of combo you are making

I have had some thoughts to justify reasonable usage of something like geyser stomp
maybe it should have a far bigger aoe size

I also thought about potentially locking boltslinger exlusive crowd control options behind windstorm while allowing the player to not take windstorm and be able to take hurricane for the sake of minmaxing single target dps

[quick charm]

Crep ray also feels terrible because the payoff you get for sacrificing your focus is not worth it
In fact it's actually negative payoff it does less DPS than normal sharp cycle

[empty owl]

crep ray is ass

buff it or replace it tbh

[stable agate]

And also just Sharp Storm in general feels terrible

I confused crep ray with Sharp’s regular Ray attack

[empty owl]

i really dont think bolt should get a damage increasing mechanic.. its whole thing is instant dps burst with no setup

[stable agate]

Both feel terrible to use and Sharp’s Storm has such a lack of range that it might as well not be on Sharp, like Nighthawk MID had more range than Sharp

[drowsy ivy]

thing is its one arrow per tick so they literally cannot speed it up

not as it is now

[stable agate]

I’m sure they’ve already tried a lot with it

Also doesn’t it already shoot multiple arrows per tick

[drowsy ivy]

one arrow per stream per tick iirc

[stable agate]

So sort of

[empty owl]

i think it comes out at an alright speed (without windstorm)

[stable agate]

It’s fine

Feels faster than old arrow storm ig

[quick charm]

Alternate between one and two arrows per tick per stream

[stable agate]

Honestly why even bother theorycrafting about this though, enough people feel Archer is in a fine spot that CT won’t change it

And some people even think we’re idiots, as well as some CT flatout arguing with us

We just gotta hope that something changes eventually that makes Archer feel good again

[tribal sluice]

selvut moment

[knotty canyon]

archer is awesome wdym

[stable agate]

It’s flawed and doesn’t feel great to play, as well as sustain being a pain on Bolt

[knotty canyon]

you are wrong

[stable agate]

Recoil and bomb self damage suck to play around and elusive is a bandaid fix

[languid scarab]

Archer is awesome to play except half the shit feels clunky to play

[knotty canyon]

thats called not liking the archtype i recommend you just go play sharp

[stable agate]

Half of it being clunky and half of it being the most fun I’ve had playing Wynn sums it up well imo

[stable agate]

Sharp also feels terrible

[knotty canyon]

how

[stable agate]

The arrow storm Sharp uses feels like garbage, and twain’s arc can ruin gameplay if you don’t spend a bunch of points to go around and

Nighthawk’s Arrow Storm felt way better than Sharp’s weird ray thing

Also had more range

Sharpshooter having range on it’s Arrow Storm who would’ve thought

[knotty canyon]

nobody has any problems with twains ark phantom ray is perfectly fine aside from the fact its range doesnt make sense lore wise

[stable agate]

What.

Twain’s Arc feels like garbage when you want to use a powder

Slows down gameplay for no reason and for no reward

[knotty canyon]

you are the only one to ever say this ngl

[languid scarab]

I love when you cant shoot twains arc cus ur attack speed hasn't caught up

[empty owl]

i dont like sharp in general

[stable agate]

You sure?

[empty owl]

really annoying, missing one ability throws a wrench in your dps

[stable agate]

You sure you aren’t living under a rock? Twain’s feels utterly terrible to use

I outright skip it if I can because it slows down gameplay

[knotty canyon]

no its totally fine and ive never heard anyone say that before

[wild briar]

twains fun wdym
do you not get the urge to snipe anything you see from ridiculous distances

[stable agate]

No because it feels like it does nothing?

I want to spam spells not get interrupted with a dumb charge up

[knotty canyon]

whatever this guiy is annoyinmg me and making no sense im out lol

[tribal sluice]

twains is fun if you actually do want to build heavy melee but its forced and can be mildly annoying to accidentally activate if you dont benefit from it while using a spell build

[stable agate]

That’s what I mean I just suck at getting it across

It’s not worth it on a spell build and feels like a nuisance more than anything when I just want to pop a powder special then go back to spell spam

[knotty canyon]

very very mildly so just uhm fucking cope?

[tribal sluice]

thats not very fair

[stable agate]

You’re opinions kinda suck man

[tribal sluice]

i mean honestly i dont mind it anywhere nearly as much as recoil on bolt so shrug

[stable agate]

Like I’m not much better but damn

[languid scarab]

No I understand it fucking sucks to play even of ur building hmelee cus most of the times you're just holding the beam in until your atk spd catches up

[tribal sluice]

i c

[languid scarab]

Phasing beam makes it feels worse cus of this

[stable agate]

Oh so I’m not a complete idiot

Maybe

[dire condor]

you upgrade an ability and it deals more damage crazy concept

[red crow]

If only there was some ability for repositioning to use within .8 seconds you are given
Leap:

https://tenor.com/view/transitions-kinemaster-black-guy-suit-tiktok-gif-25279479

[empty owl]

wait whne the fuck was windstorm implemented

[red crow]

Sevlut going hard, how come u didnt address the same point in my archer thread 🥺

[empty owl]

bcs he got angry

[red crow]

Xavier should make the small Ophanim upgrade skippable to piss of Sevlut

[languid scarab]

The ability in question being 5 miles away from sharpshooter:

[red crow]

True, if only sharp was neighbors with bolt

[languid scarab]

[modern spire]

Windstorm has been in the game since 2.0 release, but it wasn't possible to skip until trapper got moved to the middle because you'd get walled off from the rest of the bolt tree by Twain's Arc (focus requirement), Shocking Bomb (5 sharp requirement, only 4 possible), and Initiator (focus requirement again)

[somber fossil]

why can't bolt get homing shots

[red crow]

If only trees looped around

[somber fossil]

there's genuinely nothing that blocks homing shots from bolt tho

[empty owl]

Large skill investment required

[celest arrow]

Mind blowing that people want recoil to keep flying archer around

[celest arrow]

Knower..

[tribal sluice]

wat

[celest arrow]

You are winning today nip nop

[modern spire]

I like it :(
Helps avoid stealing agro with trickobats and feel fun

I do wish I could not have recoil while grounded though

[empty owl]

Why TF did my constructive feedback get 800 messages

[modern spire]

Miscommunications between you and Selvut leading to a long argument

[plush kettle]

I think just buffing windstorm would make a lot of sense

And also for a new player, how are they supposed to know to go all the way through trapper to avoid nerfing themselves

[modern spire]

There's no reason to avoid windstorm until you have the ability points to go all the way to hurricane; windstorm is initially a buff

This is just a goofy endgame thing which wasn't supposed to happen

[plush kettle]

Oh I see

[modern spire]

I'd rather see the loss of the skip be compensated another way

[plush kettle]

My bad then I didn’t know that

[dire condor]

You can make one node only increase the amount of sprays and the other - their density. That should be more favourable towards taking both

[modern spire]

Nimble string already has the monopoly on increasing the rate arrows come out per stream (2 ticks -> 1 tick), so the only way to make it feel like arrows fly out faster is to add more streams, which both windstorm and arrow hurricane already do
The only other stat that can be touched is arrows per stream, which adds to the time the spell takes instead of speeding up arrows (which is why windstorm increases it from 0.7 seconds to 0.8 to finish the cast)

One tick is Minecraft game ticks which are 0.05 seconds, if that wasn't clear

[somber fossil]

not counting homing shots itself it’s 3 AP

[stable agate]

Yea it really isn’t that hard and for someone like me who basically never needs anything from the bottom of the tree those 3 points don’t mean much

Like Panoptes is meh and I like Flying Archer so Elusive is a no go

And then Geyser Stomp exists

[median crow]

Geyser should be a get off me tool not a I'll see you in a second tool!!!

[faint bronze]

guardian angels in general kinda dont seem very great

a lot of the abilities to buff them are on the other side and practically unreachable or at the very bottom

which like guardian angel is like the new unique thing bolt does

[median crow]

It was op in playtest but I've not seen it used primarily since

[stable agate]

I saw Duat use it in a Freedom build for a little bit right after Fire Creep Grape Bomb got nerfed

[noble crater]

how do i get to the start of this thread fast

[stable agate]

You don’t, discord sucks

[noble crater]

i dont wanna scroll up for 10 minutes 😭

[noble crater]

damn…

[stable agate]

TL;DR I did your mother

[drowsy ivy]

#1227559895486955591 message

discord search function ftw

[stable agate]

The fact there’s not a “Jump to start of thread” function anywhere in threads outside of search is dumb

[noble crater]

fr

[drowsy ivy]

very true

[noble crater]

🙏🙏🙏

[empty owl]

Threads need a jump to the top button

[supple timber]

honestly i dont see a problem with it ngl

i was taking it anyway on my boltslinger cuz i liked the extra speed buff on escape

like maybe they could reduce the spread a little

[modern spire]

The problem that was his focus for a while in this thread is that the number changes on arrow hurricane were placed on with the expectation that you have windstorm

[supple timber]

ic

i missed alot lel

[modern spire]

The -5% per arrow (only -4% without windstorm because the -air changes nothing) is way less impactful without the previous -10%

[supple timber]

lol

then again im the one nutcase that wants more recoil on everything as boltslinger

[somber fossil]

yeah bc it is in fact expected that you’d have windstorm when taking arrow hurricane

[red crow]

Its not just the damage per storm tho, duration being increased is a damage loss too

[timid blaze]

this was a read 😃

BlueTheYapper has entered the chat

[supple timber]

big brain play ... nerf arrow hurricane to 1 stream instead of 2 ... then you will have better hit from all 3 streams (base + windstorm + hurricane)

xD

[supple timber]

ah ic

[modern spire]

Just to make sure the numbers are known, the duration increase is from 0.7 seconds to 0.8

Because of the +2 arrow per stream on windstorm

[red crow]

I know numbers when i see them

[supple timber]

lol

how do you change it without changing boltslingers entire identity lel

[onyx olive]

crazy how xavier's plans are still half finishex

warrior was supposed to get its precise strikes shots removed too i think

[red crow]

I think overall dmg loss is fine, nubers are overinflated anyway, its just poor design that not taking it is optimal. I dont think its fair to ask players not to optimize their build when possible, nor to make it mandatory. Best solution would prob be the node yielding the same exact damage whether u take it or not, and serving more as a sustain node (more duration = less mana used), as well as a bridge

[somber fossil]

why don’t you go and calc the numbers for that then

while maintaining the current total mults

also the duration increase is only dmg loss if you’re not dealing dmg during the extra duration

[hollow steppe]

i think the point about eledefs nuking boltslinger dmg is a really good point

not sure what can be done but

not utility dmg

[somber fossil]

pretty much nothing that’s just a consequence of design

pick ur weapons more carefully when building

[stable agate]

I have never heard that as an argument ever in Wynn

Anyways Freedom superiority Jack of all trades is a master of none but better than a master of one

Which is why everyone should just use rainbow builds

[hollow steppe]

i think the point was more that the forced conversion on windstorm to air damage leads to a really steep damage drop, not so much the weapon choice

[somber fossil]

arrow storm mult already has the best neutral:element ratios of any spell

[onyx olive]

there arent any busted mechanics like breathless so thats whg they didnt nerf the conversiom

actually uh

arrow storm suffers the same issue as 1.20 meteor

it cannot be stacked

[stable agate]

Ah yea

[onyx olive]

[stable agate]

Which makes Storm Bomb Bomb the best cycle which makes sustain a pain on Bolt

[onyx olive]

meteor snake snake type beat

[hollow steppe]

classic sharpshooter win 🥱

[somber fossil]

if u cycle at 6 cps storm bomb is fine

[onyx olive]

nO

[stable agate]

Lmao

[onyx olive]

i need my tendon snapping cps

[hollow steppe]

i cycle 3 personally

[somber fossil]

wynn players when the game isn’t balanced entirely around macro guild war mechanics

[onyx olive]

i cycle 0.4 cps because i play lightbender

[hollow steppe]

mouse button 3 mouse button 4 mouse button 4 😼

[stable agate]

Most endgame Wynn players have a decent cps, not just macros

When the gameplay is clicking fast you end up having decent cps who would’ve thought

[somber fossil]

most endgame players is still only like 10% of the playerbase LOL

[stable agate]

The issues we’re talking about are endgame issues though

[onyx olive]

the other 90% are still on emerald trail

[stable agate]

And also the endgame playerbase are the most active ones

[somber fossil]

.

[stable agate]

Yet again a terrible defense

[hollow steppe]

ok lets not pretend anyone in ct/devs gives half a shit about guild wars LOL

[stable agate]

“Just cycle slower” is not a good defense for inherit bad sustain

[onyx olive]

if ur minmaxing thats like taking account bad rolls into builds

[somber fossil]

cycling faster shouldn’t be harder to sustain isn’t even a good argument in the first place

[hollow steppe]

manastorm in question

[stable agate]

Barely notice manastorm’s effect

I’m sure it helps, but storm bomb cycle still doesn’t like mana pools on Bolt

Which is the reason why some people ran Storm Angels for a bit, less mana intensive

Until people realized angels sucked

[modern spire]

Cycling with shield on bolt is never about angel damage since it's already fixed DPS, it's just cheaper

[onyx olive]

it was good when it recast stacked

[stable agate]

And before Panoptes nerf

[onyx olive]

didnt even ger like 100k dps

they just fr hated 4th spell stacking

[stable agate]

Early 2.0 Archer was not favored by the nerf god

Some of it was very much deserved (2million dps on a basic spring build), some of it wasn’t (why tf did they nerf panoptes)

[empty owl]

Fire grape bomb went crazy

[feral gyro]

I'm thinking about a mechanic that offers more burst damage and gives a quick rampup in damage

[somber fossil]

nah

[feral gyro]

literally all of it suck
archer is my first playthrough class and it sucks
I am only growing more adamant about my opinion
you are confused if you think sharp being any better justifies all other issues
I hate your approach to this matter

[somber fossil]

that's called not liking the class I recommend you go choose another one

[stable agate]

“Instead of talking about issues with class design and asking for changes just ignore them and play something else!”

Your approach also sucks

[somber fossil]

💀 sorry you have no humor

[stable agate]

Those types of jokes aren’t helpful in a feedback scenario

[feral gyro]

that and its damage potential are the only things good about twain's arc
it becomes the only core component of your gameplay should you invest anything more
all of this could be easily solved or be improved if it scaled with attack speed as many have suggested

[stable agate]

Don’t add anything and detract from the feedback

[feral gyro]

weren't you the guy who suggested that my suggestion to give trapper more sticky bombs would make trapper be more like sharpshooter
I don't know who should ever take your opinions to their heart and care

[feral gyro]

we don't need anything that could feed trolls

[somber fossil]

you say this as if the feedback has been productive

[feral gyro]

I hate the dispute over the 10% danage loss
damage loss would be astronomical when you are already at astronomical heights
I believe there are more pressing matters at hand

[somber fossil]

and I have yet to see any detailed solutions

[feral gyro]

I would just ignore this "issue" entirely
There's probably a better way to deal with overall damage scaling
The only abilities that seem to offer progression within boltslinger are the abilties that only ever improve single target dps of arrow storm
Shrapnel bomb is a very miniscule improvement to bomb and who even uses escape for damage?

[supple timber]

ye i focus more on when things dont work or feel bad more than losing 10% dmg xD

now 50% and id be right in the middle of the riot line cuz you would actually feel that lel and that would actually impact mechanics and stuff

now how about a guardian buff owo

[feral gyro]

I'd just give guardian angel the ability to keep enemies away

anything more is bad in my opinion

[supple timber]

sad

[feral gyro]

50% loss would be akin to switching from using bolt/sharp to using trapper against Astralus
now that matters

[supple timber]

lol

[red crow]

There should be a node that turns guardian angel into an orbiting shield that doesnt shoot but damages and knocks away nearby enemies

[supple timber]

thats kinda the default mechanic

except its arrows and its bad at it lel

[hollow steppe]

we should even give it like, a cool little arrow sprite because its basically fitting the theme right?

[supple timber]

what if the guardian angels copied your attacks

basically ranged trickster clones without the defense layer

[hollow steppe]

how to overbuff a class in one simple step

[supple timber]

well its better than being a waste of a passive point

or well 2

either that or scale them as minions/turrets better

[supple timber]

they are meant to be offensive not defensive ... the base skill was already defensive before the conversion (very bad defensive but defensive lel)

lowkey kinda wish they just didnt exist and more focus was put into the char itself spamming arrows all over the place xD

[hollow steppe]

lowkey move grape bombs closer to bolt

and as people have already said recycling feels strange, missing projectiles shouldnt be rewarded but rather punished if anything

[supple timber]

you already have punishment for that

its called sharpshooter ... and no one liked it

[hollow steppe]

i mean theres a reward and a punishment right

[worn trellis]

whenever or wherever that thread was where I specifically complained about grape bomb's tree placement

[hollow steppe]

i dont actually think bolt should like, lose mana or whatever for missing arrows (it already loses damage because stuff doesnt connect), i just think maybe bolt should be given mana for landing arrows

[supple timber]

im down

altho the arrow spread is a bit like a forced penalty at that point

not you being bad at aiming

[hollow steppe]

could help with some of the sustain issues higher skilled players who also typically have a higher cps complain about

[supple timber]

but ye sounds fair

[plush kettle]

wouldnt that kinda fuck sharpshooter cuz then ppl would build really low sustain bolt builds that do a lot more dmg than sharpshooter builds

[hollow steppe]

i mean yeah but usually boss mob = bigger hitbox = more arrows hit and you usually only really need that kind of long term sustain against big bosses anyways

[supple timber]

ye

[hollow steppe]

im not arguing that the current mana value of recyling should stay the same, rather that the concept of missing arrows for gaining mana is fundamentally quite strange and i think people should be rewarded for landing arrows with mana instead

[supple timber]

to be fair sharpshooter needs its own looking at ... so shouldnt be ballancing other chars with it as the reasoning yet

[plush kettle]

yeah i agree with that

[supple timber]

to be fair we already do have one reward for hitting targets other than the fact that hitting something means doing dmg kek

frenzy effect right before the first red passive

[hollow steppe]

the only reason i see people run recycling is in conjunction with escape artist/shrapnel, since even the arrow shield break effect is kinda inconsistent for generating mana

[supple timber]

xD

[hollow steppe]

which honestly is a cool concept in its own way, i saw a guy running trapper in tna where he literally escapes to generate mana, throws traps like 8-10 blocks in front of boss, and lures the boss onto them

[supple timber]

ye

[plush kettle]

i feel like recycling was prob added partially to justify escape artist and arrow rain existing, otherwise those abilities would be kinda worthless

[supple timber]

no thats not why

actually well ye kinda

but its just the general idea of spray and pray

vs sharpshooters precision

you focus by getting up close ... otherwise you get alot of area but little control

and thats why they gave recovery on the things you dont hit

at least i would assume

[hollow steppe]

i mean yeah i guess idk honsetly that oughta just be built into the abilities themselves, escape artist already can only hit one arrow out of the hundred per target anyways

which i always thought was kinda funny, but it was changed iirc because of some war stuff

[supple timber]

gross

xD

[hollow steppe]

like in all honesty the way its set up rn is that escape jsut becomes a +8 mana spell

and arrow bomb is like +2

[supple timber]

lol

[supple timber]

wait how is arrow bomb +2 ... isnt it like 0.1 per projectile

[drowsy ivy]

wait im thinking of something else

[supple timber]

i know its less than 1

thats all i remmeber lel

[drowsy ivy]

shrapnel bomb is 30 fragments tho

and its 0.08 mana per projectile missed

[supple timber]

ic

[feral gyro]

didn't know recycling kinda makes bomb amd escape more useful

that's awesome

[hollow steppe]

30 shrapnel, assuming a few of them hit then you get around 2 mana

[supple timber]

ic

[empty owl]

Bolt def needs better mana sustain

[celest arrow]

wdym just use point your camera straight up and use arrow storm to proc recycling

[feral gyro]

god knows if it's even worth doing

[stable agate]

I used Duat’s Nighthawk build and now I never run out of mana! (At the cost of my fingers and actual decent damage, but at least the damage is sustainable…… in a game where killing things in 5 seconds is better than slowly but sustainably killing things)

It also uses basically every mana sustain item it can

[onyx olive]

just cycle slower kekxd

[timid blaze]

@somber fossil you poor thing they bullied u

https://tenor.com/view/hello-chat-roblox-falling-goodbye-chat-top-text-gif-21349648

[timid blaze]

whar

[timid blaze]

except meteor is still an issue because people complain riftwalker's meteor is unsustainable

[somber fossil]

what

[timid blaze]

ok i exit the chat
i got to this message and realised everyone was like NOOOOOO MY MACROS haha

STUPID CT just buff arrow storm to give 10,000 arrows 🙄

[somber fossil]

granted, arrow storm now has 10000 arrows and each deals 0% damage

[drowsy ivy]

and they fire from 100 streams equally spaced around you for maximum coverage

[hollow steppe]

tackshooter omg :wholesome:

[timid blaze]

and even if they hit they still proc recycling
issue solved, closing this post 👍 good job guys

[feral gyro]

is it really an arrow storm when it's more of an arrow rain?

guys I think arrows should converge and form a vortex

[feral gyro]

hitting blocks should just be trigger recycling

if it doesn't do it already