#a lot of mythics feel wrong they don't work with the ability tree

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

spark heron
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thought a bit about "constructive feedback" but i think i'll just complain a bit, mostly for mage
gaia is supposed to be a weapon used for melee, you can't convince me otherwise, it's not MEANT to be used for a spell build. Intuitively, you look at the weapon and you'd go "oh, that's a melee weapon" or even "oh, maybe poison is usable with this weapon" or even "oh maybe spamming icesnake can be cool"
and the game laughs at you for even trying.
the melee mage weapon just got a spell damage buff.
the MELEE mage weapon just got a SPELL DAMAGE BUFF.

i believe that "the meta" will always exist, there will always be something more efficient, more fun, more technical.
but for an update that was meant to add different ways to play different classes, i see most mage players boiling down to just hurling meteors- just like before, or hurling light orbs. it hasn't improved over the time 2.0 has come out.

you wanna roleplay an icemage, spamming ice snake? not even barely viable. the abilities buffing icesnake making no difference whatsoever
you wanna have a spamming tp to utilize the provided abilities from the ability tree? it tickles compared to meteors.
you wanna mele- no.
you wanna play plague mage? no.
there are no viable off-meta ways to play mage, it rewards some boring spell cycle that dictates how icesnake will always be purely a way to reset your meteor or heal spellcost

i'll just say it, I dislike the current relationship between items and abilities. some simply don't work. why give/keep quetz, gaia and singu melee stats if it's gonna be useless, the mage ability that "buff" melee inconsistent and barely a difference. There are plenty other examples. it feels like the gaia buff is a temporary solution to a big problem.

ofc i respect the work already put in, but i'm left hoping for more.

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on a sidenote, there's something offsetting about riftwalker as an archetype. the gimmick used to make arcanist damage viable and the ultimate a buggy and unrewarding risk
the teleport damage abilities so interesting but the results disappointing

viscid oriole
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Agreed, this is mostly due to the ability trees focusing too much on Spells. Melee builds are forgotten.

spark heron
viscid oriole
spark heron
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also to rectify, i don't think it's just mythics that feel wrong with the ability tree, i think a shit ton of weapons and armors don't work with the ability tree, and are hard to use properly.

i wouldn't say that i'm a wynn "pro", but i've done my share of testing, theorizing etc

surprise, a lot of things simply don't work ! and that kinda sucks, as I would imagine these items had purpose. it's just not well applied to the game now

uneven grove
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Update named Spellbound for a reason 😭

spark heron
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gaia being the forever prime example for me, a weapon with melee, poison, and huge spell costs reductions, reduced to a spell weapon, and the -4th being simply a convenient way to spell cycle faster

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while melee, poison, and icesnake rarely being a focal point on any mage playstyle

amber river
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me when the only ability that buffs mage melee requires 30 mana in the bank

spark heron
amber river
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i wouldn't talk about damage when I CANT EVEN GET 30 MANA IN THE BANK

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if you build melee how the heck are you supposed to get enough mana for 30

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mana pots dont count

hidden plover
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? you get 28 mana per meteor if you thunderstorm

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each lightning strike adds 7 + once for actual meteor

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30 mana bank is very easy

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problem is it does no damage

amber river
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tried gaia melee it's hell

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can never stack 30, i thought it's easy on papers too

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but for some reason it just dont work like that

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and if you cast 2 meteors you cant sprint anymore

hidden plover
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? no way 1 meteor + 1 ice snake means you dont have enough mana to sprint

spark heron
hidden plover
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why would you not always be on max mana?

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  • with gaia -4th meteor + ice snake < 50 mana
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and if its that huge a problem just wait like 1s to cast the next spell

spark heron
# hidden plover + with gaia -4th meteor + ice snake < 50 mana

we're talking about a hypothetical situation where we're testing a build, that doesn't involve using spells but melee
along with the abysmal passive mana regen, accidentally casting heal when ur stressed out from being swarmed cuz u don't do any damage anyway...

well. it's just a terrible time overall, and this comes from experience.

you're free to try it out and make something remotely viable tho
i won't stop you

hidden plover
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but yeah more melee mage would be nice

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i am aware

spark heron
hidden plover
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i mean rage is the only reason to use gaia anyway

spark heron
# hidden plover but yeah more melee mage would be nice

that's not exactly what i mean by viable, well either way, we pretty much agree
but i simply hope that mage can have more playstyles in general, that the existing abilities outside of ophanim, healing and meteors can get more relevance instead of just being used as minmaxing

in fact, i'm just complaining about my disappointment to how mage currently is. there are 2 ways of playing mage and they're pretty fucking boring

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more than anything, i enjoy roleplaying, i enjoy lore
i have never seen anyone in the lore be a proper lightbender

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i have never heard about a riftwalker

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i can only hope they're from fruma ...

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but yea just kinda sad incoherence, between lore, item and ability trees...
almost as if they're part of 3 different content teams
one could only wonder how much communication they have between each other

hidden plover
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archetypes were added relatively recently so there is not much lore about them

uneven grove
hidden plover
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but that is an entirely seperate point

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would be very cool if updated bob boss used archetype spells

spark heron
# hidden plover archetypes were added relatively recently so there is not much lore about them

yes, but it's interesting cuz they 100% could've
you have nature magic from the lari storyline
you have mentions about golems throughout the lore too
you have classic mages
you have ice mages the therick

i wouldn't have found it uninteresting if those became the archetypes !
far from it, i'd have found it so much more relatable if one archetype was like "thericks disciple" or smth

hidden plover
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most of those feel far too different to work as archetypes

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archetypes need to be able to work together

spark heron
opal python
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current mage doesn't exactly work together (in a cohesion sense, not synergy sense) either, what with lightbender main locking you out of meteor and arcanist out of heal

elder portal
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arcane bender :lock heal and meteor at the same time

maiden quiver
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sunstar is way too op that's why it wasn't buffed

wanton citrus
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as the owner of the #1 gaia, have you even used riftwalker with ice snake cycle?

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wdym spamming ice snake "isnt viable"?

viable =/= optimal!!!! for the 10000tth time

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teleport mage is super yucky and janky to use but it can still dish out juicy DPS during timelocked (defo needs a rework to be bearable without)

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youre right about the state of melee mage rn - its a shame ik
but saying "gaia is a melee weapon why did it get a spell buff" is just silly
someone else can put this into better words than i can but just bc u look at an item doesnt mean it isnt designed/doesnt deserve to be used elsewhere?

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i do agree that its a little odd to give gaia such a minor buff tho
I think its like 3k dmg diff or smth?

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gaia's issue stems from the ability tree tho

keen parrot
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winded working with melee would fix gaia issue right?

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also doesnt that make psychokinesis not a filler node

uneven walrus
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seeing all mythics were made before 2.0, it was completely up to luck what was gonna be good and what was gonna be dogshit relative to the synergies it had with AT (excluding cata, its base is too high for that to matter)

hidden plover
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winded working with melee would be a very boring solution but it would make melee mage better

foggy flame
spark heron
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yo blue, i completely agree with what you say
perhaps our choices of words are different, but you point out exactly what i find wrong, ice snake spamming isn't optimal, but it's able to dish out alright damage,
yes, i have tried it with lament, yes i have tried it with gaia, but i found that often using a similar build, you'd do more damage and it would be more practical just to dish out meteors instead. I think that having a node that punishes meteor damage in favor of icesnake wouldn't hurt to increase different playstyles
as for tp mage, the damage is decent during timelocked but that's so niche and limited. it def needs a rework
i don't think that ice snake gaia is viable, nor tp warp or fatal
and i don't think they should be as good as classic mage builds, but they really shouldn't be that far behind

I don't think either are viable.

to add onto that, how much research would one have to do (if not for blue's builds) to even be able to make an off meta build that does a third the damage of a random standard mage?

i'm not saying that gaia can only be used as a melee weapon, quite the contrary, i think gaia is a great example of a weapon that can be used for different playstyles.
and these playstyles need some improvements. However objectively looking at gaia as a weapon, the stats clearly shows that it encourages a melee playstyle along with poison and ice snake, and punishes a spell playstyle (objectively speaking, -spell ), but the ability tree is so dominant to the point that meteors and ophanim outclasses everything else, i find it a shame.

i think i could've better worded my title, because i understand that the main issues with mythics not feeling right stem from the ability tree not working with them
i found the fact gaia got a buff, no matter how small, as a sign that spell gaia should be buffed as a mainly spell playstyle while melee isn't even playable, which is just contradicting the item's OBJECTIVE design.

sry for the rant, hope you're well

jovial lintel
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um, was immolation said in this post at all?, fully making Acolyte unusable

wanton citrus
wanton citrus
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light bender also needs to cycle snake for optimal DPS

spark heron
# keen parrot also doesnt that make psychokinesis not a filler node

is it not already a filler node ? (it's pyrokinesis btw)
something i've been trying to say was that a lot of nodes in the ability tree feels underpowered.
for the mage tree:
Eye piercer
blink
snake nest
Transonic warp
Explosive entrance
wind slash
Sunflare (it doesn't work on guild towers, it's hard to know when you actually apply it, but it isn't underpowered)
and finally the worst of all, the nichest of niche abilities, the disappointment of the century:
Timelock
i found riftwalker the most interesting archetype when it first came out, because it looked like it was going to make tp and ice snake do reasonable damage or even an actual play style
turns out they do, but only for 6 seconds and it takes 30 to a whole damn minute to prepare

make these nodes feel rewarding to obtain and use plz!
make someone go "wow i'm so glad i took wind slash! my mage feels so cool jumping around and slashing enemies"

keen parrot
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and not be filler

spark heron
spark heron
spark heron
jovial lintel
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Yeah, Immolation is also a fucked mythic when it comes to other archetypes.
the -healing efficiency makes it impossible to play acolyte unless you duel wield absolution to get your health back after casting 3 auras

grave pulsar
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not sure if this was mentioned but also riftwalker fully relying on mana storm, and arcanist needing thunderstorm to retain mana bank is kind of weird (for arcanist you have the extra points anyway but riftwalker gives up a lot for it)

hidden plover
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thunderstorm giving 28 mana per meteor is so busted

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arcanist just does not require mana sustain

spark heron
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sometimes i feel like the current mage playstyles are just happy little accidents

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tuned to make them fully work, and everything else just kinda got ignored

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gone are the expected new playstyles, just 1 new objectively kinda boring playstyle, and the old mage, without heals but with the occassional lightning

hidden plover
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mage does have a lot of useless/filler atree nodes (particularly riftwalker)

mortal spear
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maybe adding a spell tree and a melee tree, with points shared between them, could be cool

hidden plover
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but if you play pure spell / melee one would jsut be irrelevant?

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also idk how much you could fit in a melee tree

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bonk does more damage with more range x10 fr

uneven grove
hidden plover
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having one entire new system be completely irrelevant half the time seems like a pretty strange choice

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so unless this update made hybrid everything meta

foggy mist
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They can’t make mage tp do too much bc of warp

hidden plover
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yeah

flat drum
hidden plover
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nah arcanist is fine

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pots are op and for lrs just use OKR

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too glassy for what?

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other classes manage without a heal spell

wanton citrus
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yap police here

molten niche
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💀

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goofy

molten niche
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the whole archetype identity is not having heals

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and you’re wanting to give it some healing…

jovial lintel
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Play immolation Shaman, then you can complain about healing

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Specifically Immolation Acolyte :)

hidden plover
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the basis of arcanist is that heal no longer heals you

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you want heal spell to heal just less?

hidden plover
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...

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arcanist is fine as it is

jovial lintel
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Right but people using abso are still going to get 1 tapped since shamans defense is terrible and if they are using Lunatic its worse

hidden plover
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perma awakened go brrrr

jovial lintel
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115 def and max hp of 3900

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all it really does is give the user loads of healing, otherwise without the wd, its damage is now fairly low

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its shamans only good healing source

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I don't think so

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shamans dps is low, and even for a fire mythic with no powder slots

hidden plover
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idk i think shaman and mage are in a pretty good spot dps wise

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like yeah they suck compared to trickobat

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but its almost like 2 million dps is not good for the game

jovial lintel
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there fair, dps wise I would say, the other classes are way to high cough the video of warriors killing TnA under 10 seconds cough

hidden plover
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for tna? or what

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but also you are 100% wrong on that

jovial lintel
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mage can get way more, it out ST Dps shaman

hidden plover
jovial lintel
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True

hidden plover
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bro stfu

jovial lintel
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warp is based, ive seen people also use quatz and they do fine

hidden plover
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yeah

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holy shit dude stop talking please

jovial lintel
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my hadal build that heals jack only has agility btw, gets 200k dps if the target is standing still

hidden plover
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hadal mask throw is pretty cool

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untrue

jovial lintel
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its Acolyte since twisted teather and Grusome knots are crazy

hidden plover
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huh

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wrong!

jovial lintel
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its good dps, its just fragile, but thats with most thunder mythics

hidden plover
jovial lintel
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that's aftershock, and btw most tier stack shaman builds can't cast anything

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shaman's damage shouldn't also be resorted to just tier stack builds

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also mage can just teleport out of danger, shaman has to cast 2 spells that are slow and finicky, better off just tanking the hit and dieing half the time

hidden plover
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spell shaman is honestly super fun

jovial lintel
hidden plover
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totem shatter mask throw and twisted tether ♥️

jovial lintel
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but I mainly try to focuse my builds around spell

hidden plover
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yeah i often find myself super pressed for AT points for shaman

jovial lintel
hidden plover
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blood connection is v nice qol

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if you have the points to spare tho

jovial lintel
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also note: you get 1 shot against greg with this build

hidden plover
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xd greg is easy enough to no hit anyway

jovial lintel
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the agility is a gamble, also dosent help that Acolyte heals nothing now

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easier said than done on shaman, shaman can teleport to their totem and get screwed over by bombs and greg him self if your not patient enough

hidden plover
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oh yeah you dont have enough ws to kite with that build

jovial lintel
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nope

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cause if you build into ws on shaman you become way to weak and don't have enough damage in general

hidden plover
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yeah the +80 ws from awakened is very nice for the boss

jovial lintel
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and yes ive made the relik so its up to date

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some reason I can't find healing efficency

hidden plover
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immo being able to get 100k dps with 80k ehp is kinda busted

jovial lintel
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no healing at all btw

hidden plover
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yeah its not on wynnbuilder yet i dont think

jovial lintel
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like, only healing is life steal and even then its trash since you need all beams to land to get full healing

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switching to pots is pointless as well since you need to recast all your totems

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could go into it more but I don't want to flood the chat

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but otherwise with tomes its around 100k ehp and 200k dps on the dummy

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which isnt bad on shaman, given its kit with movment and everything else

hidden plover
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sounds good for tcc

jovial lintel
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its decent in TnA, you take agro though which people don't like, you can cast totems to try and kite

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I usually get 2m damage? but the mod doesn't show Minion damage.

molten niche
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believe what you’d like i guess, but i think it’s telling that more and more people disagree with how you feel

hidden plover
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mage is not broken op

jovial lintel
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and shaman is currently worse

molten niche
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mage is literally the only healthy class

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only thing that needs a nerf is greed

molten niche
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but power level wise, it’s better than arcanist in tna

hidden plover
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yeah

jagged kettle
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Riftwalker doesn't peel far enough ahead of Arcanist for the amount of work you need to put in

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also y'know. sustain issue without taking manastorm or using some stank ass legendary wand that has too much mana steal

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Restore mana when hitting winded targets, scaling with winded?

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replacing time dilation, of course.

wanton citrus
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this problem came about because old mage meteor had a cooldown on it essentially and they swapped that with heal
so now we live in a world where riftwalker cant sustain bc ppl expect to get 1 morbillion meteor cycle - which arcanist can get almost for free

spark heron
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Tldr
riftwalker is interesting but it’s not working for fucks sake how long do we need to wait until timelock becomes interesting

Melee mage needs to be a thing instead of buffing spell Gaia… wtf were you thinking

Ice snake and tp need to be more useful other than just for cycling, otherwise just remove them from the ability tree and name mage “meteor or the occasional light orb thrower”

This’ll be my last message on this thread, I’ve expressed what I wanted, take good care of yourselves everyone!