#constructive feedback on recent item changes

1 messages · Page 3 of 1

maiden glade
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i'm gonna be honest players shouldnt and cant expect mythics to forever stay the same
market value (or rather existence of ids/importance of them by general judgment (so not wynntils %. lmfao)) as is is already kept a pretty close eye on, at least back when i was im

but sometimes things have to change, and sometimes significantly too, or you would have to expect mythics to just be zero rollable id stat sticks and nothing else. it's really hard to tiptoe the line between health of the game and receiving death threats player's displeasure sometimes

calm wraith
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and if there was another way to have done it we would have taken it. we get this is super frustrating, and as much as I think the 1 mana or 1 spell cost on some mythics staying like that over "market value" is insane, this was a genuine complaint and I really didn't like making players bite the bullet there. I feel it'll be healthier overall but that doesnt mean we can't recognize it. it just means there wasnt a way around it

gloomy flare
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yeah im not blaming you guys for that, only devs

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but the effectiveness changes are pretty meh

calm wraith
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but instead "nine minutes" "thnx for ruining apoc" "goofy ahh spell roll" "IMs keeping up hated item change streak for six years running, good job!!!!"

maiden glade
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im not gonna lie as much as i could blame ingame market and whatever i genuinely think WYNNTILS GREEN ITEM HERE GUYS I HAVE A WYNNTILS GREEN ITEM set stuff so far back its insane

maiden glade
calm wraith
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"let's follow the funny <item team> and watch <them> FAIL"

maiden glade
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also idk if this is something i shoudl be saying but yall have no idea how long the plans to add healing ID have been laying around lol

strong field
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that patch was goated bro

maiden glade
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i think touhoku handled that

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was that the patch around the time i quit with all the broken items?

strong field
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it’s not even broken

red nacelle
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it was the one with, among other things, Future Shock Plating and Runebound Chains

strong field
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actually cool and fun but balanced items, my favorite item team patch

maiden glade
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as someone who "grew up" building-wise during 2018-2020 basically every current day item seems broken

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a lot of my im tenure was just telling people to stop putting high values on their items lol

calm wraith
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I think I did most of those actually

strong field
calm wraith
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wasnt involved with runeboumd chains except arguing over whether it should be boots or leggings

red nacelle
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to me Future Shock Plating is only known for single-handedly holding Monster Riftwalker together, but I didn't play it much because wow cycling that as fast as I can sucks to play

maiden glade
red nacelle
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but overall it was quite cool

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The general community probably cares more about Sigil of Terror though because of the silly rage meta

strong field
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that was nice too

maiden glade
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anyway. this item could probably use a nerf on req (and probably a bit of health to go along, 3k for lv84 is pretty damn high you know how i feel about those fabled baselines) and then it would probably be received a lot better i'd guess

calm wraith
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yeah looking back through I did everything but runebound chains, which alta started n I think became some collaborative thing

strong field
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i think this could use mana regen

red nacelle
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personally I feel the -hpr isnt warranted enough to be there unless it gets another mana ID

calm wraith
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tbh I felt like reducing req was somethin

maiden glade
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chat it's level 84 it can't have the holy damage-sp-mana trinity on negligible downsides yet

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it has base 25 damages according to the custom wb item

red nacelle
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hmm level 84 is a good point

strong field
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maybe you can add more spell damage

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guh balancing fire items is so hopelessly hard though

red nacelle
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the damage IDs are fine I think

maiden glade
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it's pretty much half your sp at that level which is definitely a significant amount even if by that point there are some very solid sp items

calm wraith
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this was absolutely, obviously meant for bash, hence the damages on it

red nacelle
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I think my general issue with it is just that it doesnt feel like it would be used for any reason except the major ID, which isnt a fun item to work with

calm wraith
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fire pertains to boiling blood, earth to base bash, thunder to bash sacred surge or thunderclap

calm wraith
maiden glade
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im a big supporter of fabled armour remaining relevant for all classes even on a major ID for 1 class

strong field
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i think this could use maybe -4 bash cost, health regen% instead of raw and getting like 12 mana regen.

maiden glade
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but i think this is pretty close to being relevant as is, it's just a really big investment at the level

strong field
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am i too close to remaking nighthawk here

calm wraith
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you also gotta keep the theming in mind though

strong field
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what’s the theme with this?

maiden glade
calm wraith
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Iosis is The Reddening, part of the alchemical process of refinement towards the philosopher's stone, or to perfect the self through Dissolution and Coagulation- destruction and rebirth

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so you are dissolving to become a stronger self

strong field
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i’m so confused rn 😿

calm wraith
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hence, health to mana

maiden glade
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i just wanted you to watch me dissolve
slowly

strong field
maiden glade
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not necessarily

strong field
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or getting mana regen instead of steal

calm wraith
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nope, cause this was also made in mind to support Apocalypse as an "easy" boost

strong field
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that way feels more like a trade, also both changes would be a buff

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wdym by easy boost

maiden glade
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frankly thematics are a really fickle thing and it's never a very good basis of argumentation against an item ((note that it IS a good argumentation in favor of an item doing something though))

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so i wouldn't go too much into it

calm wraith
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temblor boosts bash area and speed. hellfire relies on fast bashes and overlapping ranges to make its damage.

strong field
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what does that have to do with having life steal or mana regen instead of current

maiden glade
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explosive impact is added to make you look cool and idk reduce visibility

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this will be the basis for my new build

red nacelle
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it might just be me but I feel like apoc kind of needs to find a helmet with better mana sustain than one with temblor, since reducing bash cost significantly is pretty hard (I literally opted to eat uppercut cost and cancel bash cost with generalist instead)

strong field
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maybe you could just give mana steal value an absurd buff

maiden glade
# strong field wouldn’t negative life steal make more sense in that case

anyway this isn't really true because what selvut described is a continued process, meaning negative hpr is arguably the most strong stat in terms of thematics. it could potentially have life steal to display the rebirth aspect but the mana steal covered it already and considering the relative "busy-ness" of the item already it suffices plenty

strong field
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like 20 base roll or something

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ok than why not mana regen instead steal

maiden glade
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choice

calm wraith
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wanted to support apoc's life steal by giving you more reasons to melee with it.

maiden glade
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like i said, getting hung up on thematics is not usually a good base for arguing against something

red nacelle
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10 mana steal really doesnt feel like much incentive to melee

calm wraith
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plus a decent number of fire or fire/thunder items include mana steal or life steal as well

calm wraith
strong field
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but that’s probably not a great solution

calm wraith
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we cant have one item be an entire build, no

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or shouldnt, anyways. I know theres a couple out there

strong field
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sadly 30 mana steal not enough to sustain most builds now days

red nacelle
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30 would be on the high end imo; divzer is popular with 39 after all

strong field
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also i think you can get 40 mana steal and 40 strength from some stupid fire crafted

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ignited faeblopm or smth

maiden glade
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i guess i do agree with the judgement that it's currently on the weak side for non-warrior but i'm firmly on the side where the penalties should be reduces to make the overall package be worth it, and not the power upped. its level being the main consideration here.

calm wraith
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yall gotta remember this is one item

red nacelle
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it is just one, but it feels like one I wont be using, even with apoc
I feel like I can do more by picking a helmet with a more useful array of stats

maiden glade
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bringing crafted item balance into non-crafted discussions is like asking why you dind't bring a nuke for the new years fireworks set

calm wraith
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I had considered slightly buffing mana steal and reducing its req a bit and seeing how that turned over. havent checked the votes yet

maiden glade
calm wraith
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its -regen is already lower than base

maiden glade
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((presumably. again i have not checked in on wynn balance for like a year))

calm wraith
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by slightly I meant 2.

strong field
maiden glade
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okay you actually meant slightly, i guess that's fine then

calm wraith
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yeah when I say that I try to mean it

red nacelle
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Maybe some of my issue with it stems from the fact that I don't feel like it's worth using fire items very often when building fire mythics, so I tend to be in a situation where I'd rather use something like Morph-Stardust more

strong field
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or even worse cumolonimbus

calm wraith
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yeah. this isnt necessarily meant to be The option

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especially considering that this is "supposed" to go with a lv 81 mythic, not a 105 endgame usecase mythic

maiden glade
red nacelle
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with how much damage apoc does right now, I kind of forgot that it even is the low level mythic
out of the all the fire mythics, it has the highest damage potential right now, and I think it might stay that way even once hellfire becomes only fire damage
hellfire really is just a strong concept overall

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still sad that I can't use it for level 80 NoL but again thats my own doing

strong field
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post nerf apoc should be able to do like 60% of what it does rn

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maybe less

calm wraith
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against highly mobile foes it'll be a lot trickier to use

red nacelle
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I used it againt greg earlier today since I used uppercut surfing to stay mobile and provoke to keep greg on me

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worked really well

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I guess Orphion would be a different story though

strong field
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he’s not real

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honestly the only thing holding apoc back now is you have to work with fire items

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but this is a strong enough bottle neck to make it weaker than idol hero tcrack by a fairly big margin

red nacelle
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or you can just...not
Phage Pins and Dragon's Eye Bracelet were the only two fire items I used

strong field
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big bottle neck still

calm wraith
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I mean, I used the hive(with lv 80-85 items) as a litmus test, iosis included, and gale and genesis kinda destroyed me. gale cause she is super mobile and genesis cause he kept rumbling me into the air

red nacelle
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its a 95 req on apoc

strong field
strong field
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especially gale has crazy damage

last jasper
# red nacelle with how much damage apoc does right now, I kind of forgot that it even is the l...

To be fair, I don't really care for level of mythic really being a major decider as to how much damage a mythic does. Most casual players aren't going to have low level mythics on their first playthroughs, so to design them around those levels is kinda awk

Apoc used to have one of the most consistent damaging builds when exploding triggered lifesteal back in 2016-2017 era, and pure was meta for a good chunk of time in 1.19 as well- aside from its initial release where spell damage raw was multiplied with spell damage%

I can't say much for the damage output apoc does, as I haven't seen or tried it, but I do feel pretty let down by the fact that they touched up a mythic that nobody cared to have touched up, rather than looking at other mythics like spring, sunstar, thrunda, etc. which all are really cool designs but just fall so short of other options (and pathetically enough, crafted options). If they had looked at all of these alongside apoc, it would've been fine, but it feels like kind of a punch in the face tbh. Especially with spring and how it has underperformed crafted bows for years now with no changes

calm wraith
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like, I couldnt actually beat genesis cause the boiling blood areas made his on hit effects basically constant

strong field
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if i hear one more spring complaint i will actually go insane

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players when they see well balanced item (truly shocking)

maiden glade
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spring complaints are fine but if i hear the team crafted spring veins will pop

strong field
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spring is not under powered

last jasper
calm wraith
strong field
dusky verge
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spring major id

calm wraith
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like. most of the items you have mentioned are in our crosshairs, the solution just isnt agreed upon internally

last jasper
strong field
last jasper
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Thanks for the update on it

maiden glade
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i think it's somewhat funny that people complain about apoc not being up to snuff with other mythics when diaminar did essentially like 90% of what apoc could for two years or so

red nacelle
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If the item team is currently focusing on rebalancing a lot of mythics, I think that would be cool
periods of revolutionary changes to how something works are really fun to be in if you arent sweating over any single hit to your favorite item

maiden glade
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spring is the type of mythic that pretty much requires either a new ID it could dedicate a new identity to, or needs to wait for a major ID to be able to exclusively given to it

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but major IDs are very slow to be made, unfortunately

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and new IDs way, way slower even still

last jasper
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I honestly really like the minus dex and no crit gimmick that it has, I think it's really cool and unique. It just feels like there's not enough on the other end to really balance it out. Like, you don't gain enough in return for losing so much. An interesting id that pushes the concept further could be cool- or any sort of id addition that gives it more without just inflating the damage numbers would be equally nice

strong field
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yes you do boy

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you get 30 mana regen and aphotic

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  • higher base than all bows but 3
last jasper
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aphotic is generally worse than other options in a lot of cases. 65% spell damage is not anywhere close to 30sp + 20% ele dmg and 20% spell damage or whatever

39mr is a good bonus, and I love it, but a lot of other weapons have a stat that they provide a lot of as well. Not critting is a massive damage loss overall- especially after strength and dex changes a couple years back

strong field
maiden glade
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keep it frosty

strong field
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free tier drop insane damage insane mana value

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you are tripping so insanely hard rn

last jasper
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I've said my part, I'm not gonna keep discussing this here

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I think it's valid to agree or disagree, in any case. I'm just stating how I feel after using it in multiple builds and game modes for years, even before it lost hpr raw and during the time it had spell cost 3rd and 4th

strong field
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just saying, the only thing that rivals aphotic in mana and damage value for spring is anamnesis and that has a slight bit of -hp…

ivory basin
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a3pki "Acam makes me wet" sighting in a spring discussion

strong field
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don’t even you don’t play spring i doubt you own a spring buddy

ivory basin
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Coz it's a mid weapon

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It's barely better than crafteds

strong field
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ok etw ass licker go play your dog tcrack build (worse than hero)

ivory basin
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Damn bro really got triggered from me saying spring isn't a good weapon

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Like yeah sure you can say I'm biased because I mostly play ETW
You're equally biased though so it cancels out Shrug

deep anchor
calm wraith
calm wraith
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anyway I suppose that second item won't be found for a bit yet since it's in a lootrun pool

red nacelle
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well Im keeping an eye on the official items page; as soon as it updates, I'll find out what it looks like

calm wraith
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but I can guarantee you it's triple-filtered for extra purity, even though it's...y'know.

red nacelle
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I have no idea what that means but it sounds interesting

calm wraith
red nacelle
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it would be really funny if we get the propeller hat situation all over again where it takes ages to show up

last jasper
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@calm wraith are you able to confirm what the base healing efficiency for lament is? Thread says 31, but 31 would mean min is 9% and max is 40%, but I'm seeing only 40% rolls with 2* in screenshots, which is odd for a range so large

calm wraith
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I have given you all the necessary information for someone to sleuth out what the item is called now

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31

last jasper
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okay cool I'm not just stupid, ty

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I mean I am just stupid but yeah

calm wraith
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a roll of 1.28 or 1.29 gets max while being 2 star

last jasper
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gotcha

dense phoenix
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they were!

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thank you

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not advocating for yelling at salted, but I swear we get so much shit for just

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working on this out of passion alone

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a CT told me that somebody told them to kill themselves because of the immo changes, and they aren't even on the item team 😭😭😭

worthy kiln
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devs arent active in community

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so they cant respond

lost gulch
small citrus
dense phoenix
worthy kiln
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yes it will not fix anything

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but if ur even remotely connected to staff u have a chance of talking to the person that will

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this is the thought process

stray river
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clearly i must ping salted for the fourth time today

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this will totally solve the issue and will be extremely helpful

worthy kiln
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the solution is let them do whatever they want all the time

stray river
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@opaque junco

small citrus
dense phoenix
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Feedback is fine, yes

stray river
dense phoenix
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But what I feel like you misunderstand is that just saying "I hate this you guys suck" isn't that

small citrus
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examples of things cts advocated for and devs overrode (to my knowledge)

  • nerfing lr rates to not obliterate the market (devs said no iirc)
  • transferring abso water damage to he (selvut confirmed this)
  • a lot of ability tree stuff is "salted wanted this design"
worthy kiln
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so we just let the devs do whatever they want all the time

small citrus
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even when i made probably my most controversial critique vid, the 2.0 one, i was stressing that any personal ire wasnt directed at cts for not taking feedback/doing a volunteer job but rather at paid devs who it felt like didnt put as much effort as they shoudlve

small citrus
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im just saying yelling at them for everything when they dont even likely set their own priorities for what to do is pretty unfair

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im not saying you have to treat people with kid gloves and not just say what you feel but pinning blame for things they didnt/cant even do is just

worthy kiln
last jasper
# small citrus examples of things cts advocated for and devs overrode (to my knowledge) - nerfi...

new ids on items being entirely new rolls is how new ids have always worked for years and years. It's probably not even possible with the code to transfer abso's specific wd% roll to he% and not all wd% rolls to he%
A lot of items didn't even lose their water damage

You can make the argument that it affects the market value a lot, but if there's a triple blue lament and it rolls red he%, that also affects the market value a lot. What's the solution to that?

It's unfortunate, but it's far from the first time it's happened (and definitely not nearly as significant as something like skill points becoming static in 1.19, rather than rolling from a base stat)

I think it's a bit rough right now because people with good absos have potentially lost their good water damage rolls, but I do think that moving healing items to healing efficiency is a very healthy change to make as soon as possible. The longer it waits, the harder it gets to change it

worthy kiln
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there hasnt been anyone else advocating the thought process for these items that i know of

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its pretty obvious by now whos behind which specific content when it used to be anonymous way back then

small citrus
worthy kiln
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which is a concern

small citrus
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right but how much feedback in the item feedback thread was "lets make sure healing doesnt become piss busted" and how much of it was "my abso reroll :("

worthy kiln
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i thought people were ignoring that by now as irrelevant criticism

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what I specifically was concerned was this change through the perspective of the person that changed it with how healing rollback needed to be a priority over other very very concerning issues

small citrus
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i mean if your critique has been actual stuff, then what im saying doesnt apply

small citrus
dense phoenix
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Sometimes

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We won't reply or interact with stuff if it's something we have planned or our own ideas for

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Because all we could really contribute is "cool idea"

small citrus
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shit even that helps sometimes im ngl, i get it though its not your job to be customer service as a volunteer

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i did some dev work on a semi-large modpack a few years ago, and anytime someone got mad and cussed us out for some balance change it made us even less likely to do anything about it lol

dense phoenix
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I feel that 😭

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I don't feel motivated to make a change when somebody is being super rude about it

small citrus
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in rotn when i was working on the dev team, we had bugs and balacning issues and terrain gen changes and all these huge things but what i wanted to work on was fishing and machines, and tahts all i did for like a few months

worthy kiln
small citrus
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was it important? no but fucky ou im a volunteer dev and ill work on what piques my interest

i get that its a lil different with a live service game where people cant adjust things on their own, but the general principle is the same and if anything i feel worse that cts are grinding out all this content to put a paychek in other peoples pockets but thats a separate issue

worthy kiln
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anything could have been planned at this point

worthy kiln
small citrus
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i mean yeah and i get that, im not using the "its planned so oh well dont change it" argument to say we shouldnt criticize bad decisions or silly changes i mean like look at today, we convinced cts to at least compromise and drop the exchange cataclyst rate to 1 instead of 2

worthy kiln
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the devs can do anything they want and ct is the only way for instant communication

small citrus
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right but kicking the messenger in the teeth wont help us communicate any easier

worthy kiln
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but any ct that make changes that has been proven and is visible from the ct people will clown on if the changes are egregious

small citrus
worthy kiln
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ok but thats nagisa

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theres a lot of crazy people in this server

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i feel like players have a right to make fun of a change that is incredibly crazy its just a coincidence that the person who has the power that made the changes has instant communcations with said players that make fun of the change

small citrus
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youll never not find me absolutely fucking clowning really bad ideas

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doesnt mean the person who made them is stupid or bad, these are just really fucking dumb ideas is all

worthy kiln
small citrus
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if at that point they take it personally i mean well thats not really on you, im just specifiaclly saying people who send death threats/say inane shit

worthy kiln
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it is inevitable if they arent anonymous

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not all players will have good criticism

small citrus
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i mean yeah, cest la vie im saying the rest of us should strive to be Normal Human Beings

tepid ravine
worthy kiln
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if selvut was completely anonymous about this change people wouldnt be insulting

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then your claim of being mad at the change not the person would be justified

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but this is already removing even more qol on a concept that is already extremely restricting just so that things can be organized from a single person's point of view

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so its not like people wont be mad its not their fault they are unhappy, and they have a justifiable person to complain to

small citrus
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complaint =/= insult and there’s a pretty thick line between the two

worthy kiln
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i see people being kinda mean i thought this was the issue

small citrus
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what is being said in the catalyst thread is completely fine imo

worthy kiln
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so nobody was being mean in regarding to master catalyst

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clearly selvut is getting insulted

small citrus
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i think what he means is that that guy is being a bit childish, but i dont think in any world that would pass as an insult

worthy kiln
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ok so the complaint is justifiable and wont be brushed off

calm wraith
small citrus
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i apologize if some of the things i say are harsh but i promise im never trying to personally insult

deep anchor
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Make a forum post

dense phoenix
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!!!!!!

maiden glade
# small citrus was it important? no but fucky ou im a volunteer dev and ill work on what piques...

unironically this factor is really important and i'm glad you brought it up

from my experience as IM there would always be extremely large projects requiring a ton of effort and while you can wrestle yourself through one or two you don't actually enjoy having to painstakingly go through items to nerf them minimally, or reassess poison in middle to mid-high level range and change the formula curve for it, or go on a 6 month crusade to convince salted of something

you just wanna make a cool new chestplate with attack speed bonus and air damage and negative raw melee because it has a neat interaction with something else

while it is incredibly important to constantly hold a finger to the game's health balancewise, as a volunteer and as a player it is just not always possible to be a priority

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of course this means that certain pressing issues take a long while to resolve, but you will destroy your motivation and enjoyment by only focusing on those instead of also having fun with small, way less important stuff here and there. and i can say this from all of my personal experience

paper spade
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so, I haven't said it so far @calm wraith but I'm genuenly happy with the changes, gaia buff is cool, apoc rework is really funny and hopefully niche enough that you don't care much about how laggy it can be, most healing eff changes are cool (especially the lament one)
only thing that bothers me is immo being even more useless than what it used to be but ehh I value more the gaia lament & apoc buffs
You probably only hear from the haters but there's a bunch of people who are glad those changes are there and a few inactive friends are looking at the changes with interest
you probably know this already but satisfied people don't say anything most of the time, you can consider the mass of silent people to be on average happy with the changes if only a few people are complaining about it

paper spade
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but I can't say anything about how healthy having so many people work on the projet for free is

maiden glade
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i think wynn would be off worse if it had a small, fully paid team

paper spade
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cuz I don't think the server's finances are public and a lot of things depend on this

maiden glade
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they aren't, no

paper spade
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well I can't even find any company associated with wynncraft

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nvm found it

lost gulch
maiden glade
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paid moderation is very, very different

sullen cobalt
last jasper
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color lerp is just gross and disorganized, I'm sorry
Whether you have it enabled or not doesn't affect the market, unfortunately

I do think that it's wild that a third party mod has become the deciding factor for the value of a large majority of items. They could've made green overall 75% or 85% and that would even have been drastically different from what it is now. But I guess players decide the market at the end of the day. If they want to invest into something other than raw stats, that's their own choice

last jasper
# maiden glade paid moderation is very, very different

but yeah, p much this
I'm not on the ct but like, the ct is a pretty creative team. People join the ct because they like to create and that's what they get to do. I don't think anyone joins the mod team because they like to keep children in check and take the time to hand out punishments to people who are making the game less fun or uncomfortable for others (maybe they do, idfk)

I joined the mod team because it lets me interact with more of the community and give back to a server I enjoy. I like helping people who deserve the help. I do not want to have to take the time to handle some argument between two 16 year olds who can't get ahold of themselves or whatever else of the sort. If I were to be paid for it, then yeah I'd have more an incentive to do so lol

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but like people on the ct generally just want to be given a creative outlet, regardless of whether or not they're paid for it, I'd imagine (correct me if I'm wrong). It's very different from moderation

rocky kernel
paper spade
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+1

last jasper
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oh I agree that it does

paper spade
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for the same reason that people prefer playing with shaders in minecraft, people prefer playing with wynntils because of the visual improvement & the qol
and mapmaker are taking shaders into account, so I hope devs are taking wynntils into account the same way

last jasper
#

I do have 90% of its features disabled because a lot is clutter but like, it is very helpful when navigating the hundreds of different things in this game with sub par directions in the vanilla game

#

and most should just be in the base game tbh lol

#

but that requires a lot of paid dev time so like, shrug

strong field
last jasper
#

that being said, color lerp still looks gross and disorganized compared to static colors at certain thresholds

strong field
#

like the mini map especially i feel like disabling mini map cured my cancer

last jasper
#

I like the minimap, but all the different bars and moving things off the scoreboard and onto new weird bar scoreboards, toasts, chat tabs, etc. are all so unnecessary and just make things less organized imo
the fact that there are bars for like every ability- vignettes for low hp and mana are horrendously annoying, as well as other on screen effects

thankfully they can all be changed and toggled, but yeah
sorted/grouped ids with spacing gaps between them is wild to me, makes items look 10x messier than needed as well

paper spade
#

well that's why this is a qol mod, you just have more choices over what you wanna see

lost gulch
#

that's fair, but it would be nice if both roles were compensated in some way for their work (given how much shit yall go thru from players themselves, if this thread is any indicator)

last jasper
# lost gulch that's fair, but it would be nice if both roles were compensated in some way for...

I mean, there is compensation to an extent but I can't really say much on that and it's certainly different from payment lol
If peeps want to be paid for their time doing these things, there are plenty of jobs out there. Many people looking to commission skins, builds, etc. many companies needing service supporters, or people to code their programs/sites, etc. It may not be within wynncraft, but yeah

I think it'd be different if people went into the mod/content teams expecting payment and didn't get any, but I don't think anyone applies expecting payment

lost gulch
#

I mean, more power to yall, I just find it a bit off-putting yk

Given Wynncraft does pull monetary revenue

maiden glade
#

whatever wynn gets it's absolutely not enough to pay a full content & moderator team, you have to remember that hypixel is practically the only server which can do this (and is like 50 times as big as wynn) and i'm not even really advocating for it either

it's just that a volunteer team has certain differences from a paid team, and as a player you have to respect and be reasonable about that

paper spade
#

now comes the problem of :

  • what's the income of wynncraft as a company
  • how much does it costs to run the server
  • how much does it costs to pay the devs
#

also hypixel is really bad on the server side, I've never experienced servers as laggy as hypixel (even other na servers) so they are trying to reduce costs as much as possible to make their server viable

#

which is fine to me, but kinda shows how the wynn situation probably is

deep anchor
lost gulch
#

I’d be curious to see Wynn’s balance sheet, especially given the abundance of ranked players on the server

maiden glade
lost gulch
autumn knot
shy ferry
#

Yeah bombs and crates from festivals probably make a whole lot more

#

And ig silverbull now

lost gulch
shy ferry
#

In my experience not everyone who buys a rank will buy bombs + crates also

#

They're kinda very different

deep anchor
red nacelle
#

Called "Air In A Can"

stray river
red nacelle
#

Can't without too much effort

#

Check the official item page

stray river
red nacelle
#

I don't feel like taking it, cropping it, and then deleting it
Yes I'm being lazy

stray river
#

pleeeese

red nacelle
#

Ok fine

Screenshot_20240322-112707-435.png
stray river
#

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

#

and no walk speed...

#

or agility points

strong field
#

wait this might be relaly good idk (average air item moment)

red nacelle
#

It looks really convenient for flying bolt

#

-storm cost and skips the part where you need to get height

strong field
#

ok but that base + super fast = juicy damage?!?!

red nacelle
#

Seems like it would be 800 base dps, 37 less than ignis

#

With 3 air powders that is

#

I guess Az would be better for mana and damage, but it would be a fun offhand

strong field
#

az??

red nacelle
#

It has -30% storm cost and 15 int

strong field
#

its bad though

red nacelle
#

Doesn't mean it's worth using over other mythics, but it would be better for damage than this

strong field
#

i somehow doubt that

red nacelle
#

Air weapon moment

strong field
#

also you are wrong abouse the base dps

#

its 890 💀 💀 💀 💀

#

its so over...

stray river
#

nerf soon i predict

red nacelle
#

Wat

#

753 + 11 * 4.3 = 800

strong field
#

idk man thats what wynbuilderd telling me im tryna mess with this

red nacelle
#

Oh wait I did 1 air powder
Oops

strong field
#

troll

red nacelle
#

Yes 890 is right

strong field
#

16k phatnom ray with taht sustain hmmm

#

wait i added 3rd cost by accident oopsie

red nacelle
#

I will say the high base dps makes sense for a fabled, but wow does it hurt how much more than is than ignis

strong field
#

this is like higher than any other non mythic bow though

red nacelle
#

Yes well there's like one other fabled bow iirc

#

Actually there's 2 more but they're lower level

stray river
#

hear me out

Screenshot_2024-03-22_9.44.15_AM.png
#

cataclysm but archer

#

it might be a bit too op

strong field
#

too op for non mythic sure, for a mythic weapon that seems balanced

#

maybe slightly too strong

#

just nerf thunder damage and mana regen by abit and good to go

#

but than again divzer exists so why the heck add something like this

stray river
#

guys its balanced now real (divzer 2)

Screenshot_2024-03-22_9.46.15_AM.png
#

how about this?

Screenshot_2024-03-22_9.47.32_AM.png
strong field
#

meh seems fine

#

probably anyway

#

anyway after playing a bit with this bow, its slightly stronger than gales force as long as you can deal with the walk speed issue

#

and it scales better

stray river
#

what's arrow storm spell numb for archer again

red nacelle
#

1

strong field
#

and you get jump height + 2nd cost and stuff

#

honestly this bow seems fairly balanced

stray river
#

observe this variant

Screenshot_2024-03-22_9.50.12_AM.png
ivory basin
strong field
#

but my issue with this is like this is just going to get the same usecases and be used in the same builds as every other air bow

red nacelle
#

Btw it looks like there are two mythic bows with less dps than air in a can:
Ignis and ||Epoch||

strong field
#

and az no?

red nacelle
#

Oh yeah
I didn't realize on wynnatlas that it is below ignis

strong field
#

anyway this just feels a little boring imo

red nacelle
#

I didn't scroll down farther

strong field
#

also the entire design is copied over from olympic

red nacelle
#

I think it's at least fun to have a jump height bow

strong field
#

even the same spells get reductions xo

strong field
stray river
#

hear me out

Screenshot_2024-03-22_9.54.43_AM.png
strong field
#

major id nearby mobs trigger exploding when you jump

stray river
#

fr

small citrus
red nacelle
#

Ya

small citrus
#

flying bolt my goat

red nacelle
#

I wanna offhand it with ignis but I kind of have this issue called only 40 agi

#

Maybe I can find a way to replace resurgence to get it and some damage?

strong field
red nacelle
#

Eh I'd use ignis while grounded

#

Maybe flip back to arrow rain abuse tree so I can alternate

#

Probably not though

#

Since I don't need perfect mana in challenge rooms

#

Ok nevermind not a lot of boots give the skill points I'd need

small citrus
#

air fans win yet again, firebros lose another day

red nacelle
#

I think it's a cool item
My only annoyance is just that it has more base dps than ignis but it's a fabled it should be high

small citrus
#

pocket strato this might unironically give me motivation to try flybolt

calm wraith
calm wraith
# red nacelle Ok fine

yeah this is just meant to be a weapon you futz around with and have fun using rather than DE STRONKEST

#

the whole point was to give you as much air time as possible. also, that doesn't for some reason list that it has Freerunner as a major ID

small citrus
#

it does??? proffing with this and gales is about to go so fucking hard

strong field
#

this shit gets 10% ish more than gales force before buffs

#

as long as you can deal with the missing walk speed it’s just better

#

and that’s without mentioning 1st cost

small citrus
strong field
#

i’m honestly not a fan of this bow

#

i don’t think the game needs another strong air bow

#

also this gives off olympic vibes a bit too much

calm wraith
strong field
calm wraith
#

well, this is a boltslinger item and the mobility tools on boltslinger are...

strong field
#

there’s really nothing making this a bolt item except like theming

worthy kiln
calm wraith
#

go ahead. it's not like, only boltslinger, thats just what it was designed around- the ideal of the item was for boltslingers to just fly around with a can of compressed air

calm wraith
#

this guy

worthy kiln
#

a lot of people are like that but ok

strong field
#

meh

#

i think this item needs a bit more personality

#

and also a bit of a base nerf

calm wraith
#

i think freerunner helps with that, and would you be surprised to hear that by our item baseline calculations this is not one jot above where it should be

strong field
#

by personality i mean something to differentiate it from olympic

strong field
calm wraith
#

yeah for some reason it didn't show up on the picture

strong field
#

@red nacelle

dense phoenix
red nacelle
#

Yeah I'm here

#

I see the freeunner comment

dense phoenix
#

other than me

#

What other CT has a furry pfp and talks here

calm wraith
#

wait hold on a sec...okay someone else added this to the file repository while I was at work and forgot to add it, that's probably the issue

#

but it is very much meant to have freerunner and it will be added in a patch

#

I've just fixed it internally

red nacelle
#

Fortunately it's not something people will complain about missing since it's not a huge deal in usability

strong field
sullen cobalt
#

yea 900 base is really good

worthy kiln
calm wraith
#

cause this thing has no extra damage above where it ought to be

sullen cobalt
red nacelle
#

It only hurts to see the base damage when you've been trying to get decent fire mythics for a long time
There's nothing wrong with the item itself

#

It is a fabled

#

It should be a strong item, not just a silly useless gimmick

strong field
#

maybe i’m just bugged because it’s stronger than gales force

#

which is an actual combat item and not a silly little gimmick

calm wraith
#

olympic has 6 jump height also, this has 5. small difference but it's there

worthy kiln
strong field
#

womp womp hive bow can play earth

red nacelle
strong field
#

it has no damage stats

#

it’s good literally just because high base

#

annoying

worthy kiln
#

so the solution is cut the base

#

ez

red nacelle
#

Apparently the fabled bow in whatever chest has one this week is Briars' Embrace, so nothing about Air In A Can matters yet

calm wraith
#

anyways we'll be looking at air in a can and serving it in smaller portions, perhaps

NEO_Food_058_Air_in_a_Can.webp
#

depends how the votes shake down

white urchin
#

selvut why are there

#

no patch notes for anything

#

i know this isnt your area of ct/your job but im still curios

last jasper
#

I don’t really see an issue with fableds having competitive base damage to mythics. Fableds are generally very unique by design and it’s honestly a shame that none of the cool fabled weapons, even high level ones, see use because mythics are generally just infinitely better

I like having unique gimmick fableds competitive for damage so they can be at least usable for the niche they are designed for imo

#

there are a couple that see use like rots sometimes but idt I’ve ever looked at a weapon like narcissist and got past the theory building stage because its damage output was just way too low to actually invest my le into over a mythic build

#

for someone who may not have any mythics it’s good, but as an end game player who wants to make new builds and use these unique items, it just feels wasteful when I have so many better options available

#

Obviously it’s still enough damage to get through the game’s content, but it just feels bad using something that underperforms your other options for no reason other than to have a new and unique experience

#

this goes for pretty much all fabled weapons at decently high level

patent moon
#

Yea

worthy kiln
#

everything is updated in the running logs now

white urchin
#

what running logs

worthy kiln
#

this

red nacelle
#

yea but that's only items

#

I think they want other changes as well

worthy kiln
#

well youre not seeing any patch notes

white urchin
#

bug fixes?

worthy kiln
#

maybe its all shadow fixed

white urchin
#

there is a bug involving towers that zeer said he will fix

worthy kiln
#

and it will all drop in 2.1 in one huge mega compilatiok

white urchin
#

i am wondering if it was and its really hard to test ourselves

worthy kiln
#

u aint seeing it

#

we have the huge festival of the heroes

#

thats pretty big i say

white urchin
#

dawg i dont care about the festival

#

i wanna see bug fixes

red nacelle
#

I hereby confirm one bug that has not been fixed (frog dance damage)

image.png
#

that damage is based off of this and nothing else

image.png
worthy kiln
#

they don’t know either

white urchin
#

like the patch was rolled out 2 days earlier for half the changes for no reason, and we dont knwo half the changes

worthy kiln
#

nobody knows what is happening

calm wraith
#

yeah that just isnt on us

calm wraith
#

been that way since 2.0

red nacelle
#

no matter what I do, if I am using abso, thats the damage frog dance does

#

(with a little variance)

#

always around 600

#

while nature's jolt will do a couple thousand

calm wraith
#

oh that's what you mean, ok

red nacelle
#

yea Im not worried about it though since I nobody really tries to use it

#

I reported it back on the forums in November

rocky kernel
white urchin
#

i want to know if resistance buffs work against towers again

worthy kiln
worthy kiln
#

it shrimply isnt a priority

white urchin
#
  1. its really hard to test because its hard to notice
#
  1. i would need to get 4 friends on use full consu on a really hard terr and see if i can tank tower hits better
#

OR you can list your bugfixes

proud meteor
#

what

#

tag it

worthy kiln
#

if they list that bugfix they would have to list the change of spider dupe no longer happening in tree room in tna

white urchin
worthy kiln
#

it’s not happening

#

i think the festival would need to be over first before they can take a look at it

rancid jungle
#

is there a place i can view what new items are in a list? so far im aware of iosis and air in a can, is there anything else?

#

my personal thought on the water damage change is that it seems a bit... pointless for rhythm of the seasons? because ROTS never had anything like fluid healing previously so now it makes it weaker in the water damage department?

red nacelle
#

those are the only 2 new items

calm wraith
calm wraith
red nacelle
#

I'd figure that that was just the origninal intention of the ID, even if mostly useless

rancid jungle
#

I feel kinda dumb for powdering my ROTS with water now

calm wraith
#

eh, curse is still good and it doesnt discourage it necessarily, but I'm kinda sad abt the decision too

sullen scroll
#

apoc

calm wraith
#

some more "getting dumb 1 rolls off mythics" changes have passed.

#

inferno, grimtrap, and epoch. I can hear the bellyaching already

#

cataclysm is still being deliberated on

tired coral
#

That is a lot of stats on inferno

calm wraith
#

...two. it's two

tired coral
#

No I meant in total

#

Presuming the change is making them variable it’s 9 stat?

calm wraith
#

well check the running logs

tired coral
#

On my way !

calm wraith
#

im about a minute from going to sleep so

tired coral
#

nevermind my data won’t allow it I’ll check later

strong field
#

mmm

#

inferno change is nice

#

epoch i could care less

#

slightly annoying grim change

#

cataclysm should not get buffed

#

you should give it +4 spin cost

#

yeahhh

white urchin
strong field
#

wbu

white urchin
strong field
#

lame…

white urchin
#

im a proffesional hater

strong field
#

real

small citrus
#

im so fucking down for cata -5 spin cost

strong field
dense phoenix
# calm wraith cataclysm is still being deliberated on

please update the lore. update the lore. please please update the lore. you gotta update the lore. update the lore. update the lore. update the lore. please I beg of you selvut please I beg I beg I beg update the lore please

small citrus
strong field
#

that was really good actually

small citrus
#

call me barry cause im quick with it

calm wraith
robust delta
#

I'm really not sure if that works, if the lore contradicts itself

calm wraith
#

where does the lore contradict itself

dense phoenix
# calm wraith the lore is grian-approved and has precedent

"Despite the existence of the Nether Portal nether does not exist, few believe that it is possible to open such rifts with sheer force alone. None believe that a tool with enough power to accomplish such a monumental feat could exist. And yet..."

#

Also the implication that Cataclysm opened the portal in the roots, which it just straight up didn't

deep anchor
#

cata has already enough mana value, it doesn't need more

patent moon
worthy kiln
#

reminder that the running logs essentially removes the date the patches are announced for changes making it impossible to document when the change happened

#

unless you scour the discord of any discussion of around the items that are posted

calm wraith
#

cataclysm vote finished and the change is now pending alongside the rest

red nacelle
#

to save anyone time checking the post:

image.png
worthy kiln
small citrus
#

mana changes how you play the game, damage doesnt as much

#

id rather have more relaxed costs

worthy kiln
#

ok roiling ruckus

deep anchor
#

Nah I'm not worried my cata will still stay -1 saltroll
When I was buying my cata I had 2 chances to buy with stars in the cost but right as I was about to buy them someone else bought them from market (just terrible luck)
This also will be repercussion of that perioid, right?
Right???

strong field
#

good cata change probably

#

i still need to look into how much this actually affects damage

calm wraith
#

unrelated to Cata, Iosis has received a minor buff. req has been reduced by 10 and it has 1 more mana steal for a max of 12

autumn knot
safe needle
#

(ignis with lower dps than air in a can be like)

#

(13% fire damage can't save it)

autumn knot
pastel mason
#

air items are unironically the most fun in the game

red nacelle
#

I think it's worth noting that some of the most notable air items actually have 0 connection to mobility other than an agi req

#

fire could do with just a few of those imo

pastel mason
#

They should remove walkspeed cap fr. I want to take one step from ragni to almuj

lethal arch
#

hell yes

sullen scroll
#

and Apoc CI-10000AApocalypse0250401030580907315-5250A07440-8200F00M0201H0R0201V0X010Z0i0232Y1N0m0204LIm0s0202vCX11023110Z150201B55160231R0n1E010QE

calm wraith
fervent cliff
#

whether strati will be buffed?

onyx horizon
#

the day when spring has major id

strong field
#

me when guardian is slightly less placebo

paper spade
#

guardian guardianing more like

red nacelle
#

oh cool, the chance I save a tna run by using guardian has increased from ~1% to ~2%

sullen scroll
#

i'd actually prefer it stay base 8 mana ❤️

red nacelle
#

Hey at least it isn't a 1/101 for the max roll

#

Still 3/101, but that's a lot better

stray river
red nacelle
#

Major ID went from 20% to 35% damage redirect

stray river
#

nice

patent moon
sullen scroll
autumn knot
sullen scroll
#

yeah

small citrus
#

guard buff ☺️ kisses

sullen scroll
#

luckily it barely makes a difference with ele spell. it's healing eff that really sucks to not have

#

hard to substitute anything for that on items that got it

autumn knot
# small citrus guard buff ☺️ kisses

good addition, specially the buff to MR, however I still think that the Water, Fire & Eath def should be replaced with a general Elemental ID for two reasons. First because reducing the amount of IDs in a item is always a plus, second it makes sense in Guard which is the ultimate Tank weapon.

autumn knot
sullen scroll
#

"abandoned" is a stretch

calm wraith
#

air in a can has also received a nerf

strong field
#

830 base now

#

(post powders)

boreal granite
#

what is this air in a can

strong field
boreal granite
#

jumpheight

strong field
#

when nerf rolls out anyway

boreal granite
#

damn how much jh

strong field
boreal granite
#

thats stupidly funny

calm wraith
#

base 4 is 1-5

#

base 5 is 2-7

sullen scroll
red nacelle
strong field
strong field
#

gales you got extra stats that benefit combat

#

and now the base dps difference is a lot smaller

sullen scroll
#

-25% arrow storm cost 💀

strong field
#

not even bomb cost

sullen scroll
#

skull

safe needle
#

-2 jh Sadge

sullen scroll
#

7 jh is 1/101

patent moon
sullen scroll
#

ong

onyx horizon
#

old guard being 50%

calm wraith
#

Immolation:

fireDamage: 200-440 -> 230-495
airDamage: 310-330 -> 350-375

defense: 80 -> 75
agility: 80 -> 75

defensePoints: 70 -> 75
agilityPoints: 70 -> 75
health: -2750 -> 0

lethal arch
#

hip hip, hooray

strong field
#

which one is requirements

red nacelle
#

The ones that say "defense" and "agility" I believe

strong field
#

this is so funny

red nacelle
#

So reqs went up 5 and bonus down 5 (irrelevant since you still get 150)

strong field
#

this seems strong

strong field
#

and also it’s stronger and no negative health

calm wraith
strong field
#

wowee

red nacelle
#

Oh wait they went down duh

#

I misread that they somehow went up

lethal arch
#

oh wynncustom doesnt even have healing efficiency

red nacelle
#

So immo is now the highest base dps relik
I support this idea

lethal arch
red nacelle
#

It has overtaken Sunstar in base dps

lethal arch
#

go nuts

#

OH POWDER SLOTS

strong field
#

crazy immo moment

pastel mason
#

drop tstack immo build

lethal arch
#

i tried for like 8 minutes and it was dogshit

strong field
#

why would u tier stack

lethal arch
#

funni

strong field
#

just summoner

#

don’t have to tna you can go have fun with 60k ehp build

#

with insane damage

#

this is so becoming meta whenever we are getting a boss that isn’t as anti shaman

#

surely this change wont be regretted in like a year

pastel mason
#

surely not

strong field
#

with 60k ehp that is completely unheard off

fierce badge
#

Still cant heal though

pastel mason
#

yeah it's pot shaman

strong field
#

even still that’s crazy

#

if people can play arcanist they can play no heal shaman

#

and i mean its fucking 60k ehp with 13k hp so pots have a fuck ton of value

#

every potion here is healing 15k ehp just get that in your head and think about that

#

that is crazy af

small citrus
#

shaman lr meta

strong field
small citrus
#

doesnt matter? you get pots from every challenge anywasy

rocky kernel
#

isnt olympic the goat for shaman lr ?

strong field
#

especially late

rocky kernel
#

late just get sustain boons

strong field
#

hpr boons require you to waste boons on hpr

small citrus
strong field
#

you could have used those boons for loot bonus

#

or more damage / hp

rocky kernel
#

i dont care about lootbonus and ive never found myself lacking dmg so idk

paper spade
#

immo buff Yay

onyx horizon
#

immo buff🤯

pseudo beacon
#

goodbye discombob apoc hello fallen rage apoc!

apocLol.PNG
#

(I think something is really funky with apoc now)

turbid flower
#

What on fucking earth

#

But yea iirc there's an issue with apoc atm it'll be patched

paper spade
#

it should've been fixed

#

since the bug was with discombobulate

strong field
#

full fallen rage ssac i’m guessing

#

with that cycle exactly though

pseudo beacon
#

uhhh i’m not home right now I can send the build when i get home but it’s fmonk(has quad bash massive bash and tclap) with improved corruption and I cycled bash charge scream charge

#

I was weaving melees too and using quake as well

#

so in reality it was bash melee charge melee scream melee charge melee and then quake on one of the melees when it’s up

sullen scroll
#

also does shaman have any offhand healing reliks

#

u could always swap to that to heal no?

patent moon
pastel mason
#

I have a hadal build that offhands abso for healing

#

it's cursed but it gets me to 100 lootrun challenges

lethal arch
#

offhand abso hell yeah

red nacelle
pastel mason
#

the funny thing about my hadal-abso build was that it obviously stacked wd% for the hadal, so when the abso changes went in, i had both HE and wd%+fluid healing stacked for the abso

#

I can heal from 1 hp to max in 2 auras

stray river
#

selvut makes the best changes

#

the look on the faces of the people who panic sold their immos:

strong field
#

i think this is a bad change

#

seems fine rn but this will bite back when shaman is actually good in a raid

#

this change potentially enables immolation to be absurd

#

im still convinced the best way to balance immo is to revert it back to when it had wd

pastel mason
#

well the thing is, shaman will never be good in a raid

strong field
#

summoner is already single target oriented

#

we are one static boss away from immolation domination

pastel mason
#

idt summoner can target greg

strong field
#

infact its already fucking up tcc

pastel mason
#

they don't move fast enough do they?

#

the puppets, i mean

strong field
wanton stratus
sullen cobalt
strong field
#

but its stupid and has almost no use

sullen cobalt
strong field
#

not before

#

but now sure is busted

sullen cobalt
#

yea

#

not as busted as apoc tho saltroll

pastel mason
#

yeah but TCC sucks

worthy kiln
#

why do people always revert back to rage abuse or rainbow abuse

#

new item?? normal build (it sucks)
rainbow build (better damage better ehp)
rage build (1 million dps)

pastel mason
worthy kiln
calm wraith
worthy kiln
#

thats wack how major ids can affect multiple nodes

#

can we do more of these

calm wraith
calm wraith
#

In summary:
Temblor got a "buff" that really just helps clear up some visual confusion and clear up math on the server side
Cherry Bombs got a pretty big buff
Reckless Abandon got a pretty big buff
Blossom Haze got a pretty big buff
I threw out Conspirator's Trickpockets and made a new Conspirator's Trickpockets

strong field
#

oh wow

#

i hope cherry bombs actually decent now 🙏

white urchin
#

honestly goated update from the item team all around

#

(please dont nerf healing 🥺 )

small citrus
#

item team cant stop taking wins

small citrus
#

also do tempest ticks stack or do new ones cancel out old ones?

gloomy flare
calm wraith
#

it sets neutral damage to 95% instead of adding/subtracting, so wall of smoke's -10% neutral shouldn't affect it

#

cherry bombs was made pre-2.0 when throwing three smoke bombs was a guarantee and a standard effect

#

so having that locked to acrobat, or at least behind lacerate, severely hindered it. yeah, it becomes kind of a wasted node if you're using acrobat, but it's on all of two items, so...

gloomy flare
#

wouldn't it make sense to increase the number of smoke bombs?

#

and scale the damage to however many you have

calm wraith
#

touhoku suggested something similar for a different reason. the way the parameters are set up prevents that from happening

#

basically, we can't use the same damage parameter twice on the same spell effect, and adding extra smoke bombs is not a new spell effect, it's just an extra parameter

gloomy flare
#

dont know what you mean by that but on god

calm wraith
#

ok so

#

there's a spell effect for bash, and a spell effect for boiling blood, as an example. those have different editable parameters we can adjust independent of one another

#

there is a spell effect for smoke bomb, but wall of smoke is not a separate effect, it is just a parameter of smoke bomb

#

to be able to scale the damage for having extra bombs, we would need to be able to adjust the damage parameters multiple times, which we can't do

gloomy flare
#

still not 100% sure but i kinda get what you mean

autumn knot
#

The text change in Hellfire is very welcome, there are still some details missing, but its leaps better than the previous one, shame we cant fit it all in the game. The reckless abandon buff if also a great addition, pretty sure no one ever used that armour piece.

patent moon
autumn knot
autumn knot
lethal arch
#

woah cool changes

lethal arch
small citrus
#

16 max ms roll is super swag and it doesn’t even have sp reqs

strong field
#

also -8 to -16 mana regen

#

life steal and hpr counter each other 😹

#

the piece itself is useless except if you really need a turtle shell

small citrus
#

reckless abandon as a MID still feels incredibly weak, and anti causality as an item does as well

#

i just don’t feel it’s even worth taking over something else which just gives a flat set of damage buffs applicable to all spells not just one option of a single spell

#

i think it’s just way too niche, i can’t really think of another major id that specifically only affects a fraction of one spell

calm wraith
#

I feel scared to increase that further honestly. I wonder how much of it is just Anti-Causality and not the major itself

small citrus
#

i did a test before and after the update and noticed a ~10-20k dps increase with a full bashscream cycle

#

negligible potentially because in that time i swapped a fabled weapon tome to a mythic one

calm wraith
#

hm

small citrus
#

i think the leggings themselves are just not very good

#

leggings are such an important slot that just putting mana on them almost doesn’t feel enough tbh

small citrus
# calm wraith hm

you could lean into the whole glass cannon thing potentially by dropping the hp bonus a bit, adding more negative hp sustain, and adding some damage? idk at the same time the mid itself just feels so niche that even a 275% buff doesn’t necessarily feel all that impactful because it’s just a portion of the damage of warscream anyways c

#

the more I think about the more I think it’s just that there aren’t really any new interactions that can come about from the MID, it’s basically just a flat damage buff and at that point you’re just starting to compete with other damage leggings/items at that flat level instead of “oh there’s some new tech i can do”

tired coral
#

anti casualty being garbage in legging slot plays big part :3

wanton stratus
#

Idol nerf?

#

ct is this /j or /srs

timber blade
#

Wtf

wanton stratus
timber blade
#

Yeah I just saw and came to this thread, saw you said it too

#

Why isn't it in the thread??? @calm wraith ?

calm wraith
timber blade
#

thanks

fervent cliff
#

should be a joke

small citrus
#

besides idol stuff, what other changes are there?

sharp vale
#

cata nerf i think

#

idol nerf is going to PROBABLY get reverted in some aspect i think. and AT is going to be switched around hopefully..

small citrus
sharp vale
#

i think rofl..

strong field
#

woah balance changes lemme take a look

small citrus
#

what about the major id changes, anything new on anti causality and trickpockets?

sharp vale
#

selvut was talking about something about major ids. im too tired to comprehend it atm.

strong field
#

huh i’m not seeing any more cata changes

#

or idol

fervent cliff
#

the idol nerf not on forums rn , so i think it is maybe a joke?

calm wraith
#

However...I've proposed a reversion. The changes were made in response to people informing me that Idol chargespam was a problem, and me drawing the wrong conclusions due to the incomplete info I was given.

#

We have a different solution in mind, and I'm told those changes won't affect much of what I was trying to hit anyways.

fervent cliff
#

who tf said "not affect much for idol "💀💀💀

calm wraith
fervent cliff
#

whether asked the endgamers or tested idol on main server by yourself about this idol changes?blobsweat

calm wraith
#

It has an effect on Idol. It just doesn't fix what I was trying to fix.

strong field
#

meh i like idol changes

#

i don’t think this should be reverted

icy sky
#

WHAT

strong field
icy sky
#

bruh lootrunning with my idol feels like im using charging flame

#

if damage is too much nerf that not movement

strong field
#

that’s an exaggeration

strong field
icy sky
#

well thats the reason idol was like one of the only expensive mythics left

strong field
#

it’s still reallly good you know

fervent cliff
#

suggest voting to decide to idol nerf or not like

strong field
#

it’s still the best movement option by a pretty big margin

strong field
icy sky
#

charging flame + gales sight gives you basically a 90%+ roll on idol for like 10le

strong field
safe needle
strong field
#

and sacrifice your helmet

icy sky
safe needle
#

i mean 20le

icy sky
safe needle
#

gales with good rolls cost a lot

icy sky
#

still 20le vs like 8stx for decent idol

strong field
icy sky
#

okr for what?

strong field
#

lootruns

icy sky
#

who uses that

strong field
#

ok buddy

icy sky
#

pots in chest exist???

strong field
#

that clown skin suits you

safe needle
#

pots won't do shit if you have 40000 hp

icy sky
safe needle
#

also why not use 1 azeotrope 1 okr

rocky kernel
icy sky
#

guh

strong field
icy sky
#

i have never seen someone lootrun with okr like actually

fierce badge
#

I use it

strong field
#

i’m just going to say it the idol nerfs are balanced and yall just yapping

lapis ravine
strong field
icy sky
fierce badge
#

Yes because im dead

icy sky
safe needle
#

i use it too

#

aquamarine has good mr, spell raw and stealing

icy sky
#
  • they are really only trying to nerf crafted spam idol in tna not idol itself
fierce badge
#

-charge would just be painful for my favourite movement stick

icy sky
#

and if so twhy couldent they just nerf flying kick or idol base damage instead of charge cost

fierce badge
#

Thats probably whats gonna happen

icy sky
#

it will still basically do the same damage just cycles will be faster

fierce badge
#

Idol revert and charge dps nerf

icy sky
#

^ 100% rather have that

#

make it like 150% or smth

image.png
fierce badge
#

Thats the last thing i saw about it

lapis ravine
#

Those are the proposed changes

placid echo
lapis ravine
#

If they pass the vote it's what'll be done

icy sky
#

well ig all i can do is pray that they do something not dumb

#

also i was just testing and idol damage is so similar to before there is basically no difference other than charge cost

white urchin
brittle parrot
#

Is the idol really nerfed and not a bug or something?

placid echo
# placid echo except idol isnt the issue here

Idol in of itself isn't the issue. It's the combination of a high movement cost reduction item with the Warrior ability tree, which is arguably too crazy for its own good, having the ability to buff yourself, allies, and deal massive solo damage, not to mention it being slightly nonsensical with the way it handles Heavy Impact and Flying Kick together. Heavy Impact is supposed to trigger on ground touch and I've never understood why Flying Kick triggers it in the first place.
All that combined with a VERY spammable ability that an item coincidentally makes free to cast over 10 times makes for an unbalanced mess. I can understand the balancing team's point of view on this issue, and the most sensical way of balancing would be to nerf Idol, however I don't think this is the correct way to go about this. I think Idol should stay as a movement-based weapon that can dish out a bit of damage with a unique playstyle.
I believe changing around how Charge goes about dealing damage would be the simplest and most effective way of solving the issue, mainly making Flying Kick and Heavy Impact mutually exclusive and changing Flyby Jab to be further down in the ability tree or even swapped with Flying Kick, and renaming it to "Stronger Kick" or something of the sorts, or even making it it's own mutually exclusive thing as well. I'd also like to see Collide be reworked and made effective in its own way, possibly slotting it more fluidly into the Warrior ability tree.
I do also think Provoke needs changes. Badly. It's genuinely way too strong for what it costs you. In my opinion it should be further down in the tree and be fully locked to Paladin, and changing how the game/The Nameless Anomaly handles Paladin Hypertank playstyles to be effective in the raid again, with possible changes to how health sustain and keeping aggro might work with it.

#

I do think general changes to how Fallen works are overdue though. I view Fallen as a "selfishly selfless" archetype that sacrifices itself to buff itself, not itself and others

lost gulch
#

Idk in my experience even with Provoke + Lure TNA loves to aggro on someone else (Ophanim and Totem be like)

#

Also if the changes get reverted do our old rolls come back?

lapis ravine
lost gulch
#

Alright nice nice

strong field
#

so high charge cost is part of the issue the other part is the damage

wanton stratus
placid echo
#

or lowkey just put provoke lower and somehow make you unable to take 2 many fallen abilities

#

when going cspam

lost gulch
#

also err was the idol DPS tested before a vote was held?

worthy kiln
#

so the next best thing is to edit the items around the abilities

brittle parrot
#

Please add tp spam for mages! It's weird that warriors can charge spam but mages can't! Or get rid of warrior charge spam!

small citrus
#

does he know

fierce badge
rocky kernel
brittle parrot
#

FRFR

#

It's not fair

snow pilot
#

top of thread for reference (its a long way up)

snow pilot
brittle parrot
#

LMAO True

hard bear
#

if that was your goal then wouldnt you change charge dmg?

#

furthermore do you really think its appropriate to be making misleading jokes about item changes before implementing them?

image.png
#

especially making said joke on April 1st?

pseudo beacon
#

just rings very similar to the apoc changes why not change the tick speed to pull the dps back then nerf the weapon itself, the issue isn’t idol, idol had a fuck ton of charge cost reduction for a long time it’s only an issue because of the abilities in the tree and i know dev time but you can change the numbers on the spells we’ve already seen that so why isn’t that the first fix when something is broken????

strong field
#

killing idol damage is a great way of nerfing charge spam

pseudo beacon
#

hero cspam exists?

strong field
#

i agree it’s not the most effective but it deserves credit

pseudo beacon
#

how is it effective at all, like cspam idol still works lol

#

if the base damage didn't change I'd say you could hardly feel it

strong field
hard bear
#

It didn’t have an insane dps base anyway there is no need to change that

strong field
#

i don’t think they should nerf the base

#

but i think 40 charge reduction is fair

pseudo beacon
#

should they nerf tp cost on warp too?

wanton stratus
pseudo beacon
#

just for the shits and gigs

strong field
wanton stratus
strong field
hard bear
#

So you’re telling me that you think the charge cost on a mythic item that is centred on qol should be similar to not just a legendary, but a rare?

wanton stratus
strong field
rocky kernel
wanton stratus
#

a3 you know the reason why cspam is good because of warrior’s damage multipliers right?

#

not because just charge 440 multiplier shit

wanton stratus
strong field
#

if you want a fallen nerf that’s a different issue

wanton stratus
#

and you mean “fallen” i can give you loads

strong field
wanton stratus
strong field
pseudo beacon
#

even if they are playing full fallen on bash scream they aren't taking ab???

strong field
wanton stratus
strong field
strong field
#

yea the private one happens to use it but many other builds use that tree that are public

wanton stratus
strong field
#

my alka build uses the full fallen tree

#

it’s totally public

wanton stratus
#

no one plays alka bs

strong field
#

kiss yourself

wanton stratus
#

just a fact

strong field
#

i played it a bit

wanton stratus
#

ok tho i just think CT and IM here just missed the point

strong field
#

i also use that tree on hero anyway since armor breaker and curse are better than discomb and you also have enraged blow 2

strong field
clear nexus
#

hmm yes let's kill the only viable playstyle that isn't bashscream

wanton stratus
#

you sound like wolf ☺️

wanton stratus
strong field
clear nexus
#

only with extreme etw

wanton stratus
wanton stratus
clear nexus
#

it's almost as if the ct WANT to kill all variety in builds

wanton stratus
#

killing cspam is what my ops wanted 😭

#

i just want a decent balancing on cspam