Make lightbender attack work with any attack speed

[pearl verge]

It's weird that one archetype is so heavily reliant on attack speed to the point that it can make or break your entire build. Not fun 👎

[median lark]

Especially annoying with crafted builds due to few attack speed options

[patent root]

Fatal solo war build about to drop

[tame plover]

I generally don't mind this too much, as once the build is made and functional it doesn't matter a lot, but the one reason this really does annoy me is Insidious 2 in TNA is completely unusable in builds that have optimized attack speed

[wise willow]

Fractional Winded for higher/lower attack speeds!

[wise willow]

Why are you playing lb Fatal? At least Monster's mana steal slightly offsets the heal cost...

[patent root]

First mythic wand with pretty fast attack speed that came to mind

[thorn berry]

crafteds exist

this is ring

[patent root]

That shouldn’t be a requirement to use if you take what is supposed to be a buff

[thorn berry]

not saying it's not annoying but there are workarounds

[tame plover]

I said Insidious 2, not hopeless 2, you'd need +2

[thorn berry]

i needed -3

[tame plover]

Well some weapons need 0

[thorn berry]

why would lightbender take hopeless 2 anyway

[tame plover]

They wouldn't?

I want to be able to take Insidious 2 for more damage but I can't with monster

[thorn berry]

ah you mean you thought i crafted that for hopeless 2

[tame plover]

I thought you did until you said it was a swap-in for a -3

[thorn berry]

yea -atkspd is easy with accessories but +atkspd is hell

only ing for it is vortexian event horizon and it requires 40 in all skills

[tame plover]

Yea not happening when I use Brainwash

And have 0 agi

[thorn berry]

whats your sp distribution

and the least important armor piece

[tame plover]

https://hppeng-wynn.github.io/builder?v=6#8_06W0DP0r50wh0K00EE0Jn0KG0Qn1B1C-K2M061g00001005iO0z0z0+0+0+0+0-zZddJhSk5
Not much room for change
Either Flummox or Simulacrum would be better but I don't care enough to change them

[thorn berry]

https://hppeng-wynn.github.io/crafter/#1736D9t6D9t6D9i91

there's probably a better recipe idk tailoring that much

skill point req tho

eh just -9

[night quail]

funny approach to this would just be make ophanim cooldown the same as sslow attack speed

but buff damage

ain’t happening though

honestly i don’t think this is like that huge an issue

it only locks off lightbender from very few weapons

does disable many items though

locks off from optimal lightbender that is, it’s not actually totally unusable just worse

i do agree that change would probably be for the better though

[twilit bramble]

yeah this is just true. Its a weird thing with ophanim that solely hinders build options i see no reason not to tweak it

[pearl verge]

Tier Drop should be a thing when you're intentionally going for the life steal/mana steal. Certain builds just stop working completely because you pretty much invalidate the Life steal/mana steal/powder special entirely.

Even if you don't mind it, it's really really weird that only one archetype out of all of them relies on you having a very specific attack speed on your weapon or else your entire gameplay loop falls apart

[pearl verge]

not even a "make lightbender OP" thread, literally just make it less obnoxious lol

[fossil basin]

Make the player select their desired attack speed on the weapon with no downside or balancing

[sweet frigate]

Well if orphanim damage was made as dps instead of total damage all of this wouldn't be an issue and the orbs could be sent at a much higher speed scaled on the weapon attack speed

But this is a complete rework of the whole lightbender archetype and tree

[jovial grove]

Am I being silly or

It's totally fine that one archetype is tstack oriented

[fossil basin]

You dont tstack, you want slow attack speed

[jovial grove]

Dstack same thing

I don't see anyone complaining bmonk or acro are very spell oriented

[fossil basin]

I dont see how that relates

[jovial grove]

What's the problem with a melee oriented archetype

If you play acrobat you need mana Regen and if you play lb u need an Atlas

I don't really play the game outside of wars so I could be totally wrong

[fossil basin]

Problem as outlined here is that some weapon choices are not available to lightbender due to a way the skill was programmed, and for others you have to give up a ring slot to use agave on pretty much any build

[jovial grove]

Idk I just don't really see the problem with that

[tame plover]

You can't use items like atlas because you need specifically slow speed, not super/very slow

I still don't think it's that big of a deal, but like I said earlier, TNA's Insidious 2 buff, which is specifically supposed to boost spell damage, has -2 attack speed tiers, making it a debuff on lightbender and no other spell damage archetype

[wise willow]

The ability trees really seem to love the Slow attack speed; between the Ophanim cycle, the Winded application, and Massacre...

[tame plover]

Winded is most optimal at normal speed

[pearl verge]

As is, that wouldn't fix anything because then you'd attack super fast and kill 1 orb at a time without being able to heal them.

[pearl verge]

Melee oriented archetypes isn't bad (bolt slinger tier stack) but the fact that a whole ass archetype is locked to "Use this EXACT attack speed or else your entire archetype tree falls apart" is incredibly upsetting

[pearl verge]

you mean slow

[sweet frigate]

The whole point of the dps based attack instead of damage is to have orbs's speed depends on the weapon attack speed

I just realized I'm repeating myself, you just didn't read

[pearl verge]

You'd still lose out on Mana Steal, Life Steal, and Powder Specials on an archetype supposedly centered around melee

You see the issue?

[tame plover]

Ok technically you can melee slightly faster than every 0.5 seconds on normal, but it's extremely hard

Normal is 2.05 attacks per second and winded cooldown is half a second

[pearl verge]

On Slow attack speed if I just mash attack, I end up getting a melee hit that doesn't proc Winded every other hit. If I want Winded to build up as fast as possible I have to hit SLOWER than slow attack speed, but just barely

[sweet frigate]

Why would you ?

[pearl verge]

Let's assume the damage of orbs scales with your DPS. So you use super fast attack speed wand, but you do a melee attack very slowly to make sure you don't kill your orbs. Mana Steal/Powder/Life Steal all scale with your attack speed. You could have 50 mana steal, but if you're on super fast and attacking once every second, it's basically giving you nothing, and your powder will take FOREVER to build up

[sweet frigate]

What if orb speed was proportional to your attack speed

That's the only advantage made with dps-based orbs

You're not locked to a certain speed

Indeed it would be pointless without changing the orb's speed

[pearl verge]

Like if you had super fast attack speed they'd all shoot out fast as fuck, but they'd have extremely tiny DPS each right?

The problem is still that they take a flat 15% damage of their max hp each hit. Even if the damage is spread evenly, the fact that you're doing it so incredibly quickly means you wouldn't be able to prevent your orbs from dying with heals.

[sweet frigate]

"the orbs could be sent at a much higher speed scaled on the attack speed"

[sweet frigate]

Then you scale the damage taken on the attack speed too

[pearl verge]

Then that would work. Super slow = harder hitting but slower, Super fast = weaker but more accurate

[sweet frigate]

I'm not saying it's a good idea : would take way too much dev time for the results

[pearl verge]

Agreed. at that point, it's way more difficult to code/implement rather than

"Melee activates Ophanim Attack" -> "Melee activates Ophanim Attack, but if Ophanim Attack is currently active then it buffers the next Attack"

[brittle yoke]

I think it's fine the way it is ngl ... It's kinda cool that there's like a perfect Goldilocks zone to get the most out of the skill

[brittle yoke]

I mean you just make it change the speed it travels based on the attack speed ... Otherwise those 2 conditions are the same

[pearl verge]

That's a horrendous take, because that means the entire archetype is pidgeon-holed into a specific attack speed and you lose out on weapon DPS and powder special (the latter of which augments your damage immensely)

[pearl verge]

Like I said before, horrendous idea. The whole point of "Slow" is that you spread the damage to your orbs across all of them, so you don't kill 1 orb at a time. If you ramp up the speed with "Very Fast" weapons like Fatal or Quetz, even if the damage is spread evenly, your heal pulse is just way too slow to keep up with the damage dealt from your attacks.

Also, would take a ton of coding (effort) for a solution that causes its own set of unique problems and possible consequences. It would turn Light Bender (the healer archetype) into a DPS class if people would tier stack Lament and do 400k DPS while healing all their orbs back to full constantly.

The most viable and reasonable solution is quite literally what I suggested. Any attack speed works, and all it does is queue up the next attack so that you're constantly spreading the damage evenly across all your orbs. It's a solution that works for everyone, and makes light bender usable at lower levels (where attack speed DPS on mage is actually important for combat)

It doesn't even feel like a rework or a buff, it just feels like that was the intended mechanic in the first place

[brittle yoke]

Anything that desync from your actual input is a bad solution ngl

So queueing is bad

At least imo

[pearl verge]

Then make it ignore your melee inputs until after it's done instead of automatically queuing up another round of attacks. That's another solution that accomplishes the same thing with minimal changes

@brittle yoke any change that we suggest (if we want it to be taken seriously) should have as little effort as possible. It's not like the Wynn team is sitting on their asses and waiting for us to hand them out solutions, they already have shit on their plate. If we, the players, want something done we have to put an effort to make it as realistic as possible and also have the most net positives possible

[brittle yoke]

if its something as fundamental as a main char mechanic i think it need a bit more than "as little effort as possible"

because its something everyone will see all the time

if that makes any sense oof