Weighted boon selections

[unkempt patio]

I havent given this idea alot of thought so it could be super dumb but honestly the worst part of lring for me is starting a new one and praying i get def/health within the first 20 challenges or im just screwed, i also know i would vastly prefer to be able to have "weighted" pool to lets say walk speed or agility for one build but a different one would vastly prefer dexterity boons and like hpr. I feel like expanding the boon system to not be some extremely rng might be a good idea, it would even be able to give "loot run ranks" even more purpose. Potential idea add something like this to the (imo) useless lring tome, or a charm idk.

this doesnt like 100% garentee you get the boons you want, it just makes it more likely. even if its like a small buff of 10% I feel it would add more customization to lrs

there would be more viable builds knowing you could semi target farm specific stats that would otherwise pretty consistaly hold you back

[little topaz]

I sentence you to backup beat, stasis, and inner peace.

[unkempt patio]

im in prison now

this fundamentally could be a super dumb idea. I just think the boon rng system how it currently is, isnt that great

[atomic kestrel]

Consistency is what we had pre 2.0.3 and every run was the same, just something to be careful of with changes like that

[unkempt patio]

ya i just hate losing a sac run because the next run i didnt geta single health or def boon for over 30 challanges. it felt like NO MATTER WHAT I DID the run was over. it felt awful almost made me quit lring again

[lone pollen]

RNG is a dumb mechanic, that games most of the times don't use it correctly

[unkempt patio]

ive quit 4 runs in a row now because i didnt get health of def early enough

[lone pollen]

in boons, I don't see why there would be a weight in buffs, if your build does not have def / agi or health, the problem is in your build honestly

that's the cost of getting more damage

[unkempt patio]

because damage boons are much more likley then hpr or health. all sources of damge help eachother while other defesive boons dont after certain points

if you dont have the base health hpr means nothing

damage will always be damage

[lone pollen]

then change your build

[unkempt patio]

^

lets not force every player to be subjected to the same boring meta cause only 4 different builds are accepted to "be strong enough"

[lone pollen]

basically, what you're trying to get is an optimal build that does everything, that should not happen

that's a basic concept of game balancing

[unkempt patio]

game like nucular throne add in a weighted pool like this because yes rng is "fun" untill there is too much

boons are "too random" imo

especially for how things scale

[lone pollen]

for instance, I use a collapse build for lr's, I have 12k life and 55 def and agi, it does damage consistely, I sometimes use freedom builds with pandemonium because its fun

if I wanted lots of life I could use ignis or guardian

[unkempt patio]

anyone without access to those

why are be balacing lring around mythics?

again weighted boons maens lower tier builds can target focus the stats they woiuld need to make them work

its not like you are 100% garentee every boon you get

it just makes it feel less awful at the start

[lone pollen]

there is no "balancing lr's on mythics", mythics are better because they're more rare, if you don't have a mythic, you can still have a nice run

basically a long run without equilibrium is shit nowadays

[unkempt patio]

ya lets change that

[lone pollen]

and it doesn't matter if you have a god build or not

[unkempt patio]

having more control over boons would make that better instead of having to brute force 6 random buffs in hopes to get one youd like

[lone pollen]

I agree that it should be changed, but it would be something APART of random boons

honestly, I don't even get blue beacons

they're not worth it

[unkempt patio]

thus maybe making a way to buff them

i agree after challlage 30 and i have slight but if health and def i dont need them either

but if i dont get waht i need its a DEAD run, and that doesnt feel good. atleast to me

[lone pollen]

Yes, it is, but the problem is way deeper than just making boons less random

[unkempt patio]

@low coyote thoughts if ur available

[lone pollen]

if you take in comparison, lr's before the update was just loot quality and luck opening chests.

Now, you have to have luck to get good beacons, good buffs, good timing, etc

if your rainbow beacon takes too long to come, it's just a waste of time, if you don't get the good missions, waste of time, if you get everything perfect, no matter what, a 300+ pulls lootrun, you still will have the chance to get like 2le, and your 2-3h long lootrun was a waste of time

[midnight kayak]

I feel like

Actually I don't feel like, I know that you've talked about weighting stuff many many times

and every single time somebody has told you that it's an awful idea

[unkempt patio]

why

explain in depth pretty please

[lone pollen]

I feel like lootrun boons are like raid buffs, "didn't get what you needed?" Your problem. Deal with it

[midnight kayak]

it's already been explained to you more times than I can count, including from me

I don't want to do it again just to be ignored as it seems everyone has been in the past

[unkempt patio]

ive talked about this maybe 2 times on off hand, i didnt how you couldnt count that high

[midnight kayak]

Because you talk about weighting other stuff as well, such as chest rewards

[novel vortex]

how the heck do you survive a lootrun without boons?!?!

[unkempt patio]

ya this is about the balance of boons and mob scaling

[lone pollen]

Warrior my beloved

[unkempt patio]

see i lr on shaman

[lone pollen]

bruh

[novel vortex]

yea but like

[unkempt patio]

sumonner is funny

[novel vortex]

are you not taking curses either or what

[hushed anvil]

there's your problem

[unkempt patio]

sumonner is the only archytype that gets dmg buffs by taking enemy vurses

[novel vortex]

SHUT!!

[hushed anvil]

[lone pollen]

I don't do big lr's, because my entire pull will be just tomes, so I do like 30-40 challenges with 5 boons max

[unkempt patio]

its funny to me

im gonna kms

[novel vortex]

okok that makes more sense

[unkempt patio]

me trying to talk about the balance of 2+ hour lrs eek

[lone pollen]

that's what I said

big lr's without equilibrium is a waste of time

[unkempt patio]

they dont have to be

[novel vortex]

shaman is very funny for lootrun. It is very good

[unkempt patio]

i hate being forved into the equalib meta its very annoying to me

[lone pollen]

even cleasing greed + materialism combo. Without equilibrium is just dumb

and That's why I don't do big Lr's

So I wont get stuck on meta

[unkempt patio]

again more directed choice of boons would incentivise a less curses based meta

you wouldnt feel forced to try to get 6 random buffs if you would more directly manipulate the stuff you want

[hushed anvil]

solution is removing shaman lowering the max challenges
can't have a problem with long lootruns if you play a better class there are no longer lootruns

[lone pollen]

Even if you got all the boons that you needed exactly when you needed, you would still be wasting lots of precious challenges getting buffs.

[unkempt patio]

....

[novel vortex]

i will not stand here and listen to this shaman slander

[unkempt patio]

agree id take less pulls for potenailly better starts to lrs

[novel vortex]

mods

[unkempt patio]

again my problem with lrs currebtly is starting them. it just feels bad to me

[lone pollen]

If you do the maths, boons are not worth to get. That's all

no matter if you get optimal boons or not

[hushed anvil]

if you don't wanna stand then just sit?????

[unkempt patio]

i still have not really understood why this "is a a bad idea"

a slight favor towards a style of lring doesnt seem bad to me, why defend just getting railed by rng every run

again im not saying you get to 100% manipulate your boons, you just get to add an influnce so its easier to custimize lring builds

[hushed anvil]

because shaman is a bad class if every lootrun could be a god lootrun then it would make mythic inflation even worse

[novel vortex]

just seems a bit convoluted to me i guess

[lone pollen]

Wynncraft Filosophy (As I said above): "Didn't get what you needed?" "Your problem. Deal with it"

[unkempt patio]

^ these dont really seem like a good reason to keep an already flawed system in the game

[hushed anvil]

okay fine, just remove lootruns then
or shaman

[unkempt patio]

i had to talk about tomes like 5 different times before it wasnt "too niche of a problem" to adress

idk i just started lring again after like 3 months and like 7 lrs in i remeber exactly why i quit

[novel vortex]

also personally i think that rng makes things much more fun/replayable because i have no idea how the run is gonna go

thats just me though

[lone pollen]

the problem with rng based systems is because you don't have control over everything, and that's exactly why you are able to have hours of gameplay over a simple mechanic. (Like Roguelikes)

If everything is the same, you get bored

[midnight kayak]

https://tenor.com/view/dance-gif-26633843

[unkempt patio]

ok then dont have a prefrence added. i know lring would be 100x better for me if i could get slight help with certain satts

[hushed anvil]

yeah if you made everything the same it would get boring quick and grinding would become worse and staler

[unkempt patio]

dont punish me by reseting my sac and ill have no issue rerolling all day till i get a start i like

[lone pollen]

Humans like to difficult things, if it would not be the case, WHY WOULD YOU LR ON SHAMAN ???? you would just afk and get rewarded for that

[midnight kayak]

Binding of Isaac and other roguelikes and lites are enjoyable because you have to roll with the punches

You can obviously 'rig' to certain degrees, but the opportunities to do so are still decided by chance

[unkempt patio]

or hold R tilll you get a start you enjoy

[hushed anvil]

wynncraft rng manipulation when

[midnight kayak]

💀 this explains everything

[unkempt patio]

also there is no concept of seeded runs with lring

[midnight kayak]

Yeah, by design

Because it's not a single player game, and lootruns are done for a reward that is external to the system

[unkempt patio]

2.02 rainbow restart meta wasnt my idea it was formed because of the faults of the lring systrem and its rng

those faults i feel still haven been propperly adressed in full

[lone pollen]

If you take it as a game design, and still comparing Wynncraft to RogueLikes, In a roguelike, if a run is not how you would like it to play, you can experience new ways to play it. On Wynncraft, if your gameplay loop is bad, try changing it to something more enjoyable. Change the weapon you are using, your build, use different classes, play ontop of a horse with that boots that allows you to hit ontop of it, USE PANDEMONIUM (<- fun af tbh)

[unkempt patio]

yes im saying a weighted system would allow more access to build variety, thus you could use "more of whatever you wanted" im not saying make adavture gear viable to lr in, but im im conisattly having issues with some of the maxiums a class can output it doesnt seems sustanable.

[atomic kestrel]

Interesting how so many topics just come back to player power level. Something else people dont talk about for some reason is how extreme damage boons are. Like you could dial back the scaling, but make damage boons be 30-50%, but instead we have outright insane values like 450

[unkempt patio]

tru. as much as i love boons like "kill streak" they are also wayyyy to powerful or you get something like "walk speed" and its basically useless

[atomic kestrel]

Walk speed my beloved

High walk speed is like having horsemanship in terms of defense

[grave sail]

alternative idea, in some games there is an option to "sacrifice" a boon. Rather than rerolling it, it removes the option from the boon pool for the rest of the run

this lets players tweak their rng on the fly which is more engaging than custom boon weighting

[unkempt patio]

Semi interesting

[low coyote]

https://tenor.com/view/longestsoloever-lse-yapper-yapping-alert-gif-16222796328902842371

this would be hard to implement + probably not very nice if you want a boon but the game decides your build isnt good for it and doesnt give you it

lrs have random elements to make each lr different, for replayability. this has the adverse effect of making it impossible to reliably play efficiently, which sucks. myself and some other ct are still taking lr feedback and id like to make some changes/additions that could add to randomness, but not so heavily effect your runs like missions for example, and then maybe it'd be more feasible to crank back the rng in other aspects (not like this tho)

[unkempt patio]

I’m thinking about how the tainted lost has an item pool that is semi weighted to make things not as awful. I’m just thinking a system like that

[low coyote]

i feel like when games try to guess what the player wants in scenarios like this it was far more prone to either be not random at all and therefore unbalanced, or to guess wrong and piss people off

[unkempt patio]

I like how Issac does it with the d6. Even if an item is bad you have a double chance and if you play your resources just right you can get multiple charges via synergies eith stuff like batteries. I really see missions + boons as a “flawed” items system like Issac has

There is almost no re rolling is terms of boons or missions making rng even worse to deal with

[unkempt patio]

Again im talking about like a 5-10% weighted pull. It would just make it less likely you get 7 boons in a row that are utterly useless and make doing a long lr practically impossible

I find you realsticly need 3-4 targets QoL boons before nothing matters besides damage which is much much easier to find in general vs the QoL of def and health

I don’t have a list of all the boons but I would take a fair guess there are way more boons that will effect dmg vs survival

[willow matrix]

I didnt read everything up until this point but i think this is a great idea.

but instead of each class having different weights you should be able to sign up for different weights at the silverbull HQ area

make speccing into lootruns a thing. @unkempt patio i think this adds onto your original idea but in a better way so people can choose what they want to do.

im gonna be your first upvote dont worry about all the hate.

[atomic kestrel]

D6 being the most broken item in wrath of the lamb

[unkempt patio]

Agree with this concept

[grave sail]

yeah, this is literally us with lootrun item priority @unkempt patio. you sure u want this?

imo more rerolls and being able to sac boons to remove them from pool would be a better way to add agency to boon choices

[unkempt patio]

Boon rerolls would also be an interesting idea

[little topaz]

That’s a much better idea than weighted and can see that being added