Banish The Beyond Feedback Thread

[quaint sentinel]

works 99% of the time

[delicate berry]

not for me, either he kills me or I kill myself by exiting

[quaint sentinel]

skill issue or unlucky

[civic token]

i mean i just hide in one of two lockers and hope spirit checks the othr locker im not inn :3
or jsut dont go in lockers/enter or quickly exit and hope spirit sucks

[quaint pike]

One thing I want from suprise strike is to not be gaslighted by it when it's on cooldown

[safe junco]

simply jamp attack! :3

[rapid totem]

On gob

1 person hides while the other person opens the gate 🥰

[near slate]

My problem with lockers is how they basically don't exist on woods

[rich sinew]

i have not seen taken in woods though i played quite a bit

[long meteor]

is there a pity system for spirit selection? ie if you haven't been spirit in a while will it increase your chance of getting spirit

[rich sinew]

every time i pick taken(every time i can) it is always bunker

[long meteor]

weird I see taken in woods all the time

[rich sinew]

i was lucky it seems

[near slate]

Taken in the woods is a death sentence

[rich sinew]

mhm

prob

[near slate]

Does banishing the spirit actually weaken them? I have some doubts

[safe junco]

no

[quaint pike]

the funny "spirit can no longer be weakened" once beacon phase ends by time

[rich sinew]

indeed

[quaint pike]

like it was a mechanic once but it wasn't implemented

and that was the remnant of it

[indigo plume]

you know i said fairly early in playtesting that that line should probably not say that cause it suggests that the spirit is actually going to have a harder time catching you

guess we forgot

the lore of the minigame is that youre catching spirits in the beyond and to do so you need to turn on all the wells

[rough otter]

i dont even know still what banishing is

cuz it never actually appears ingame lul

or it does in one of those big blocks of texts nobody reads but thats basically the same thing

[spring needle]

When you power 5 spirit wells

The spirit is banished

[rough otter]

yeah i guessed it was something along those lines

except realistically nothing actually happens other than it adds one to wins

cuz win statistic for survivor games i think is spirits banished not like maps escaped

[near slate]

Yea

Surviving isn't as important as murdering the spirit

[spring needle]

More points

[bronze willow]

Make spirit a bit harder. Maybe something as small as 4 wells need powering and reduce total to 6 but atm it's a bit easy to win against a non coordinated team

Also please make ironwood blockade useful ok bye

[safe junco]

its already more useful

atm it stuns the spirit for longer

[bronze willow]

Yeah but only when injured

If you're in pfinder you don't want to be injured cause, well, pfinder. And if you're with friends in a call you can coordinate healing rather than be injured

It's situational at best and 30% longer stun isn't all that good when it's only used on rare occasions

Common knowledge is better as much as it hurts me to say it

Even Light in the Tunnel has conditions for if you're injured or not

[steep saffron]

well
Light in the Tunnel is a one time effect, and it'd be pretty poor if it only healed you once a fifth well was powered

[fathom fossil]

I basically never take one time use perks besides the self revive

Survivors instinct is useful when you know what party members you have

When they eventually all die

[civic token]

bru why can u get hit when u suprise strik the spirit

i jsut stunned them and they hit me aas well

:3

[peak lance]

unfortunate timing

the same thing can happen with the pallets

[civic token]

yeah but suprise strike is more annoying cuz there more commitment

[peak lance]

i'd argue it's similar commitment, both cases you're risking 1 hit worth of damage in exchange for a stun

[civic token]

one is a perk and even if u at full health u can get dropped if u get out 1 pico second too late bc they search u AND u can get injured randomlly

[peak lance]

eh fair i guess

range is 5 blocks though, i'd say thats big enough to not be risking a locker search kill

[civic token]

also u can destroy burrows while invincible

:3

[civic token]

yeah das true, i frogot abotu that

[vale condor]

https://tenor.com/view/nerd-nerdy-nerds-nerd-emoji-gif-25380417

[civic token]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/423579192819580930/1037517775859621958/Screenshot_20221024-0740322.gif

[patent birch]

100% not accurate review of funni dbd ripoff: The local void has once struck again by removing a chunk on the exact location i spawned, RAT, wanderer being to OP, bugs'There are no bugs in wynncraft, only features', when you played 253 games, and is to good but get accused of using wynntils map 💀, Rats, rats we are the rats, 1536 essence grinding. The 2000 hour tf2 sniper main playing keeper, nerf, nerf, 1 essence, 16 minute game, KEEPER BUG STILL EXISTS, the average juker lasting 50 hours in a grave while dodging spirit, West Forest Gate: random stuff, East forest gate: killer's hunting ground, East Bunker Gate: Nerfed with no more locker, West Bunker Gate: meh, when the escape beacon spawns next to an open gate, 'A tendril of darkness' TAKEN HEN-, Panic Zealot has breached containment and is shitting purple crystals

[rich sinew]

People complaining about wynntils map are a bit stupid. they just can turn of hades sharing their location with party

[indigo thunder]

can u see the killer's location with wynntils?

[quaint sentinel]

yesnt

the feature can be disabled

[gentle tulip]

anyone that does not disable hades can be seen by anyone else with artemis

[proper yarrow]

Rat mythic plushie when?

[quaint sentinel]

by anyone that also doesnt have hades disabled

if you disable it you can also not see

[gentle tulip]

unless its worded well but executed poorly

you can have hades enabled, but just turn share with party, friends and guild off

and then still receive data but not send any of yourself

[quaint sentinel]

no

you dont receive data as well

[rich sinew]

share with guild offscreen

[rich sinew]

there are separate options

[quaint sentinel]

Yea
But if yoi turn off share info
You dont receive info

I tested it
And it was confirmed by wynntils devs

[fathom fossil]

tf I just charged a well twice as fast by myself at the start of the game

[fathom fossil]

also a spirit just swung twice in 1 second

what

[rich sinew]

are u lagging?

[fathom fossil]

no

he literally just double swung

he missed once and landed a hit almost immediately and I died

-.-

[fathom fossil]

I heard the miss sound

idk what happened

[fathom fossil]

also why are there barriers above the 1 block tall crates in bunker

whats the point of jump when I cant even use it to get over objects

I dodged a slash and smacked my head against it and died

[spring needle]

you're not meant to jump

[fathom fossil]

can we not walk on slabs with high jump boost

[spring needle]

high jump boost doesnt prevent jump boosting

[fathom fossil]

o

[indigo plume]

yea originally the minigame was gonna use high jump boost but we had no way of stopping people from jump boosting with it

so it had to be changed to this

and this doesnt work the best

[gentle tulip]

can i just ask what the literal technical implementation of detecting jumps is

[indigo plume]

there is literally no good way to detect jumps

[gentle tulip]

that's what is said

i believe that there are buggy ways to do it

[indigo plume]

blame mojang

[gentle tulip]

i want to know, what exactly is done to detect it.

does it use a minecraft pre-made scoreboard?

is it some fancy y-coordinate stuff?

literally what is done internally to detect jumps as it is done right now

[indigo plume]

iirc its like

scoreboard stuff

but its still inaccurate

mc scoreboards can detect jumps but its still fucked up cause mojang is dumb

[spring needle]

iirc minecraft has a built in jump detection that this uses

its just super shit

(the feature)

[gentle tulip]

the scoreboard objective is inaccurate yeah

is the jump fatigue plugin coded overall

or is it cmd made

okay i almost answered my own question unless there is some way to manipulate player with some added compatibility, commandblocks can't take away your mana or remove hunger instantly

[gentle tulip]

Repeat every tick for every minigame player:
y = player's current coordinate y (as a decimal)
if player has nbt {OnGround:0b}: increment airborne by 1
else: set airborne to 0
if (y > old_y) and (airborne > 3) and (at the player's feet position there is no vine nor ladder): The player jumped, congratulations :confetti: 
old_y = y```

was the last attempt at changing jump detection something similiar?
if not, is there anything wrong with a solution like this one?
I have tested a cmd version of this with some artificial tps decreases and even with like 18 or 19 tps, it still was 100% consistent and lower than that it remained at least satisfactory while still having no false positives, going up or down slabs, stairs, falling any height or climbing vines / ladders

just this WILL trigger on natural upwards launches like vermin / pallettes but as i heard so far there is already some internal shenanigans to make sure those can't trigger jumps, so just addign a simple protection clause like

[...] and (fatigued_protected = 0)
to the jump detection and setting the fatigued_protected to 1 as needed can deal with that just fine

[ocean marsh]

my suspicion is server lag is the cause of the problems

in which case no solution is going to prevent it from being bad

[gentle tulip]

what server lag specifically? tps should be the same as what i tested (which wouldn't break unless wynn would go into literal unplayable for other reasons territory) and client to server connection... i guess yeah that could break this if players effectively teleport server side but that already breaks the game outside of jumping.

also jump scoreboard / the jump detection mc kind of brings by itself is actually jank, like even under good connection (at least from what i worked with) so i honestly wouldn't be surprised if that is actually the issue and its not necessarily tied to lag (though lag would probably worsen it)

unless unimplementable i'd wish it was at least given a shot to try hardcoding jump detection like this because false positives on jump fatigue are universally disliked and anything to get rid of them is probably heavily appreciated

that said; i don't know to what extend something like this was tested or if testing this would take up too many resources, but the potential gain for the minigame is pretty significant imo.

[near slate]

What's up with bounty spirit 12?

[safe junco]

bugged

[rich sinew]

known issue

we are secretly time travelers

just forgor it

Fruma lore 💯💯💯

[ocean marsh]

believe me when i say i have tried

[near slate]

Make wanderer get countered by preminition

In at least some way

[rich sinew]

or just limit how long wanderer can be invis

[near slate]

Or just, yk, replace wanderer

xD

[rich sinew]

nah give him a parasite pet to throw at survivors

[gentle tulip]

Most pfinder parties you can just play wanderer go on top of someone and uncloak and they'll not move and get hit, so some player silliness might make him feel stronger than he is.

Though I will admit that counterplay to garvan is very limited. Like yeah you can recognise him coming but until he commits to the uncloak, running away doesn't really help you much, it just wastes your time by not being on a well since he can just decide to keep staying cloaked if you book it to a palette

[polar blade]

"wanderer is not op"

[rich sinew]

vermin - burrows - destroyable
taken - lockers - avoid lockers
keeper - range - dodge/take cover/heartbeat
terror - traps - be careful
wanderer - invisibility - ??? run away ???

[polar blade]

"bro he has to decloak its not op"

[rich sinew]

if his speed was like 5% instead 20% then he would be way less threatening

[near slate]

Too bad the cloaked speed overrides at minimum and he's 60% faster

And as it's been said, you can't even run away

[spring needle]

you literally can, whats the harm in him following you while cloaked

if a wanderer is on me while cloaked, i literally just stand still

when he starts uncloaking, its plenty of time to get to a blockade

[steep saffron]

I suppose the main thing is that the spirit is forced to slow down significantly while decloaking, so if you see them coming closer or hear the decloak you have a moment to get some distance
mind you, not much distance, because still gets to have 20% speed at base for some reason

[spring needle]

hes essentially immobile while uncloaking. you have plenty of time to get enough distance

also all 20% speeds are going to 15%

[spring needle]

1. keep an eye out for smoke particles
2. plan an escape route if he sneaks up on you
3. conserve blockades near wells you're focusing

if you ignore all counterplay then i understand why you may not see any

[near slate]

Escape routes don't really exist if you don't have blockades, as he's faster than you for all but 3 seconds

[spring needle]

see #3

[near slate]

If you don't have 3 you don't have 2

[spring needle]

but yeah i agree, if he sneaks up on you and you only have 3s to react, with all nearby blockades spent, you'll probably get hit

he then either recloaks, in which time you certainly must have found a blockade, or chases you like normal, in which case he basically has no power except base speed

[steep saffron]

isn't base speed still where half the strength of the spirit comes from

[spring needle]

of wanderer, yeah

[polar blade]

everything you mentioned is universal to any spirit, it's not unique to wanderer

[near slate]

And knowing where he is doesn't seem all that helpful when you can't do much with that information, except hide in noisy lockers or get caught (Or on woods use the corners on everything)

[spring needle]

pre-run?

[near slate]

?

[spring needle]

run towards your escape route when you see the smoke

[spring needle]

you're wrong

[polar blade]

lol...?

[near slate]

Ig, but if you have the right sounds on, you've got the noisiest run ever bc everything is dirt 😛

[spring needle]

he can probably see you as well

whats the issue

[near slate]

Then you instantly get outpaced and attacked?

[spring needle]

he cant attack while cloaked

[near slate]

I can think of one place on woods where this strategy can take effect, and that's the well surrounded by pumpkins. Idk about bunker bc bunker has too many unmemorable hallways

Maybe the well next to it too

[spring needle]

1. bunker isnt unmemorizable at all
2. what strategy im telling you to run away when the spirit sees you

[polar blade]

• If you don't normally plan an escape route and preserve blockades near you when powering a well against any spirit and not just wanderer, then I don't know what to tell you. These incredibly basic and fundamental survivor strategies don't give any argument against wanderer not being busted
• Many wells on both maps are in very cramped areas covered with corners, and so even if you keep an eye out for his smoke particles, 95% of the time he's able to easily gain more distance on you than any other spirit when listening for heartbeat. He has to decloak, sure, but it doesn't nearly make up the amount of time he can both scout wells and get up close to you

I'm legitimately baffled as to why you're so hellbent on not nerfing a blatantly busted spirit

[near slate]

1. There's this whole section that looks like another, and has no wells in it, with bunker being a giant maze.
2. That's just stating the obvious, and applies to literally everything in this game

Also, only applies to small portion of community, there's one spirit well spawn on bunker that I can never manage to find, and I always think I'm next to it bc of one of the rooms up the stairs looks exactly like it

[polar blade]

theres a drop down in the upper area near east gate when you take the ladder or stairs that has a well near it in a corner

[spring needle]

my point is that these basic survivor strategies counter wanderer harder than other spirits. by conserving blockades and planning routes, you're not caught flat-footed when he appears.

you also ignored my point about watching for smoke. there are other spirits that can attack with much less warning.

1. taken can teleport into a locker and instantly blind (killing sprint) and exit the locker within ~2s.
2. rat loses heartbeat for 5s after leaving a burrow, which is enough time to move around corners in these cramped areas to immediately hit survivors
3. terror can place snares, which wont catch you off guard at a well, however it can lead to immediate hits if unexpected.
4. keeper can shoot 32 blocks away. this is slightly farther than the heartbeat, and in woods can catch people instantly off guard if they are not looking out.

wanderer being good at catching people off guard is obviously countered by people being aware. I believe the fact that many in pfinder aren't aware is the reason he seems stronger than he is.

[polar blade]

i never said taken wasnt busted either so 🤐

[spring needle]

theres counterplay for taken just like there is for wanderer

[near slate]

Taken has counterplay of avoid lockers

[steep saffron]

I can't help but notice that the counterplay to all of the spirits is Be Aware of Your Surroundings

[spring needle]

yes

[near slate]

"There are other spirits that can attack with less warning" Fully visible & Heartbeat & Strategy

And just knowledge of where the rat burrows are

[spring needle]

-rat loses heartbeat
-taken has no heartbeat while in locker (there is the enter noise which is your warning, but thats only ~1s before they can reasonably react to you and blind you)

[near slate]

There's also exit noise if they miss

[spring needle]

oh yeah if the rat places them in the open then just watch them, they emit particles and quiet sounds when hes burrowing

[near slate]

Oh, interesting

[steep saffron]

wondering how much taken would change if you could hear a heartbeat while they're in a locker

[polar blade]

• There is absolutely zero reason to believe wanderer is somehow more subject to the most basic strategies in game. He has the best scouting of all the spirits and is the best at chasing players down. You don't have to "catch people off guard" for him to be effective. He literally just exerts constant pressure on every player by being faster than any other spirit
• I literally mentioned smoke...? Taken can pretty much lock the last couple wells off entirely if you simply get unlucky with locker placements. Rat burrows can actually be destroyed, terror is generally too slow, and keeper can't always make use of his crossbow when even woods has many corners to run around

[near slate]

Not as much as you'd think

[near slate]

Idk about you, but I use taken as a bit of a "Oh I found you now you die" thing, and hiding in lockers generally isn't too effective

[steep saffron]

-playing taken
-walking around
-jeez, there's nobody over here
-cloak
-teleport
-oh. how ya doin.
-murder

[near slate]

Yea

[spring needle]

sorry pinna i dont think we can reach a consensus. from my viewpoint, designing the game and from the months of testing we've been doing (wanderer was the first spirit we made), ive found consistent and feasible strategies and playstyles for being able to avoid them and time-waste. im against nerfing him further

[polar blade]

99% of the community disagrees with you

[ocean marsh]

i think i agree with the general consensus that wanderer's too strong

[near slate]

At least make hitting him with a blockade a bit better

[spring needle]

you dont speak for 99% of the community

[ocean marsh]

im not sure ive seen many people saying he's fine

[near slate]

I haven't met anybody who does

[polar blade]

I don't, but from my interactions with it, that is what I have observed

[spring needle]

lex im honestly over it, if you wanna nerf him then im done helping balance

[ocean marsh]

ok?

[polar blade]

seems pretty childish to refuse further help because of one thing you disagree with coming to pass

[safe aspen]

me me me

I think wanderer is fine

nerf locker guy instead

[indigo plume]

i had a game where i chose wanderer and then one of the players put a wall of text in chat saying "ALERT!!! WANDERER!!!! PANIC!!!!" repeatedly and then the other players spent the rest of the game complaining

so i think thats a good sign that it needs a nerf

[polar blade]

both wanderer and taken could get nerfed a bit

[indigo plume]

eh

taken has a higher skill ceiling

but i think him being able to camp gens so hard is an issue

[polar blade]

i mean yeah sure it definitely does but that doesnt mean he isnt really good

[indigo plume]

maybe he can tp to less lockers the more wells there are powered

[polar blade]

in regards to skill ceiling

[indigo plume]

like he starts able to tp to 10 in 1 go

[polar blade]

and even then i think it's pretty simple to learn

[indigo plume]

then when 1 well is powered he can only tp to 8

then to 6

then to 5

then to 4

and then to 3

so like he gets weaker as the game goes on

[polar blade]

think an easier solution would just be to put a long cooldown on his teleport

[indigo plume]

sure he doesnt but literally every game ive played as garvan ive just had people begging me to nerf it and saying its overpowered and choosing to hide in a locker instead of doing gens

so although he doesnt speak for 99% of the community he is probably right that 99% of the community hates garvan

[polar blade]

i am the 99%

[spring needle]

yeah then nerf him

why dont we make it so he can only use cloak for 10s

[indigo plume]

i am still not sure why youre so intent on keeping him the way he is

cause theres absolutely no way you actually think hes fine as is

[spring needle]

because i think he has a lower skill ceiling so more people are able to play him "well", and therefore seems stronger to people who cant

[indigo plume]

basically everyone can play him well

i agree that having a low skill ceiling character is a good thing to have

but garvan is TOO good

anyone with actual skill can easily stomp pfinder with him

[spring needle]

anyone with actual skill can stomp him

[indigo plume]

ive played like 15 games as him against nip nop and only once have i actually failed to avert banishment

and nip nop has actual skill

i think the difference is that in that round i was up against 2 skilled players instead of just 1

and honestly

a low skill ceiling spirit that requires skill to defeat is not a good thing

[spring needle]

so you're saying that 75% of survivors were bad

and the spirit won?

preposterous

[indigo plume]

50% of the survivors didnt know what they were doing and yet i still just barely lost

[spring needle]

are you confused

[indigo plume]

low skill ceiling spirit that is too easy to win as and can absolutely stomp anyone without actual skill

thats your problem

naturally the low skill ceiling spirit needs to also be forgiving to less skilled players

[spring needle]

and yet half the survivors were bad and you still lost

i do agree with your point though

[indigo plume]

otherwise you just have everyone choosing the braindead easy spirit

[indigo plume]

i BARELY lost and the difference is that the 2 players i was struggling against were actually good at the game instead of being just average

[spring needle]

i think maybe id be more open to it if I heard an idea for a nerf that wouldnt just make him unfun to play

[indigo plume]

actually only 1 person was completely clueless

the other guy was just average

but still

it shouldnt take 2 skilled players to barely defeat a garvan (with only 1 escapee)

[spring needle]

yeah for sure samsam

so how should we nerf him

[indigo plume]

i dont think any of my nerf ideas would make him unfun to play

i've been intentionally avoiding that

i think the big issue is just his speed in general

after playing him a bit i think his base decloaked speed is fine

maybe decloaking should just prevent movement entirely/take longer

cause its really easy to prepare yourself to chase someone or hit them immediately upon exiting cloak

[spring needle]

so 4s?

[indigo plume]

i dont think he needs harsh nerfs i just think he needs some changes to make him less insanely overpowered

[spring needle]

hes not insanely overpowered

[indigo plume]

i think speed while cloaked is part of what makes him fun so its kinda hard to avoid that

gen positioning is a big part of it

[near slate]

Hit him harder in the head with blockades

[indigo plume]

it feels fair when all the gens are really spread out

but when theyre close together the survivors basically cannot win

[spring needle]

i suggested 2x stun time while cloaked

[indigo plume]

stuns punishing him harder could be cool

[spring needle]

when we were originally nerfing him

[indigo plume]

its kinda really difficult to whack him while hes invis cause youll rarely notice him

[spring needle]

2x stun time is a long time

[indigo plume]

i didnt say 2x

oh

sorry misread your reply

sure but its still barely a nerf cause i rarely ever see people stunning him while hes cloaked

its a nerf but not a meaningful one

[spring needle]

the point would be to punish him for harassing people while cloaked

Which is something people were complaining about, him easily just cloaking and catching up

(Which i disagree with but still)

[indigo plume]

ok but heres the issue

you usually dont know when hes stalking you in cloak until hes literally decloaking next to you

[spring needle]

Do people not look at the particles

[indigo plume]

when youre running away you usually are looking in the opposite direction of the particles

also the particles are intentionally difficult to see

[spring needle]

when hes cloaked...?

this is what i dont get

if you arent thinking at all then yeah youre gonna struggle

but if hes cloaked, why are you still running for blockades

why not use f5?

[ocean marsh]

im not a fan of f5

[indigo plume]

once again

this is pfinder

nobody is thinking

[spring needle]

oh right

[polar blade]

i almost always play in f5

[spring needle]

so we should balance spirits around people being shit

[indigo plume]

and as much as you dont like that

[spring needle]

?????

[indigo plume]

it has to be somewhat fair for shitty players

while not being extremely easy for skilled players of course

[polar blade]

I’m not sure why skill is even the question here

[spring needle]

its not fair to the spirit if we're balancing them for them to be fair against people who cant play the game

[fathom fossil]

To be honest I didn’t even know wanderer was tangible during cloaked

Also he usually just decloaks on you so when are you actually gonna stun him with a blockade

[civic token]

particlkes

ive done it twice today :3

[fathom fossil]

Wanderer has been in over 90% of my games as well which is honestly very annoying

[civic token]

the only annoyign thind abt wanderer is pfinder shitting themselves wehenever its picked

[fathom fossil]

If stun duration is doubled during cloaked I doubt it would be used often at all

[civic token]

but atrh same time i haven gotten it in all my games

[fathom fossil]

I think the spirit is just way too fast

Also taken should have heartbeat inside a locker imo

Stunning a spirit with 20% speed doesn’t even feel impactful cuz he catches up to you so fast

[civic token]

it hath been aquired

[civic token]

all 20% speed si getting nerfed to 15 which is cool

taken in locker is kinda obvious

u caan tell they in a locker cuz it will say occupied and hav purple eyes and u shuld avoid lockers anyways

[fathom fossil]

You have to get right up to the locker to see it is occupied, and most of the time you will be powering wells

Lockers are also not very avoidable lol unless the play is just to not power the wells with lockers in proximity

[civic token]

i feel liek th purple eyesd will be visible enugh but idk i havent played with a taken in hella long

or at least havent seent hem tp

they just abusing 20% ws as taken 💀

so goofy

[steep saffron]

will say that increasing the teleport time to get to further lockers is quite impactful
the downtime that is incurred warping from half the map is. hm. noticable.

[peak lance]

isnt the whole idea of wanderer being good at low skill floor to account for spirit players being shit?

kinda hypocritical that you're fine with balancing around bad players when it buffs wanderer, but not when it nerfs wanderer

[spring needle]

im not saying i want wanderer to be good to account for bad spirit players, im saying wanderer has a low skill floor and ceiling, so you can choose it and do okay but they should be one of weaker spirits overall at higher skill levels

and tbh ive thought about it a bit more, i think in that regard id be okay with a nerf to wanderer, if so many people are still on that side

i just dont like making changes based on reactionary feedback, which is what i felt like a lot of it was at the time

[peak lance]

i personally dont have a stand on the wanderer feedback tbh, but i do think spirits overall could use more player agency on both sides

the way i see it, theres

1. lots of wanderer players because wanderer is much easier than other spirits, and because people keep saying wanderer is strong
2. lots of complaints because more wanderers means people die to wanderer more
3. lots of new players getting stomped by wanderer players because the skill requirement to play against wanderer is too high (newer players, especially on the underground map, cannot be expected to know where pallets spawn)

so i would say the solution to this isnt to directly nerf wanderer but to offer an option for low skill counterplay

[polar blade]

utter nonsense

bringing up skill is pretty silly 99% of the time

it’s an overpowered spirit

it’s not that deep

[spring needle]

what should be done

[polar blade]

you nerf it…?

[spring needle]

im asking how

[steep saffron]

inexplicably, I only just now played my first round as Keeper
honestly?
pretty happy with it
very nice for stopping people from running away when you can just. shoot them.

[polar blade]

I’d either keep cloak as is but drag his base speed down to terror’s level or outright remove the speed in cloak (probably even give it a penalty) and keep the base speed the same

[spring needle]

💀

[polar blade]

skull me all you want 🤷

[spring needle]

open to alternative suggestions

[steep saffron]

in addition!
it takes a solid 3 seconds for to decloak
I was not aware until looking at it now just how much time that is to space yourself out before he can speed back up

[vast shell]

i uncloak in front of people and sprintjump once towards them immediately after they pick a direction. i can usually get a hit within a couple seconds of uncloaking unless they’re right by a barricade

[safe junco]

jamp attack! :3

[rich sinew]

I meant there is really no specific way to counter it. Wanderer taking longer to destroy barricades seems fair.

[lucid wolf]

hey tealy, dont generalize. my feedback on wanderer is STILL reactionary!

[lucid wolf]

this is the take of someone who has never been invested in game design

[lucid wolf]

imo i just find him so unfun to play against. the whole part of the game that is strategizing of where to move based on heartbeat, or when to keep powering a well vs leave it and hide, is completely removed when someone picks garvan, good or not.

all i see is: unfun hero, complained about a lot, why does it matter if he's "technically" the same strength as other spirits? That's not the experience most people have. Might as well take action while the game is still around, since it's gonna be gone so soon (sadly)

like we dont really have the time to wait for the playerbase as a whole to just get better at the game and learn how to exploit his weaknesses

like most other games do

[rich sinew]

Thats why Garwan should take longer to destroy barricades.

[lucid wolf]

Could be a good nerf. I feel like it doesn't address the main issue of what makes Garvan unfun to play against imo, but I also have no idea of how to tackle that issue. It seems too tied into the design of his character and i might be the only one that has that exact problem with him.

[vivid quail]

i disagree personally

wanderer is one of the more balanced spirits imo especially if survivors aren't AIs. theres a lot of warning given to the players when uncloaking, and as long as you dont pick lone soldier (god forbid) the boost from being hit is very helpful in running away

it has a high floor but a somewhat low ceiling depending on the survivors

[rich sinew]

tbh there was one game (woods) where we (survivors) really coordinated, were in groups of 2 mott, often messaged where we saw him and ended up banishing him and everyone escaped

[low wedge]

Will point out I've found on woods even that warning can just not matter. Sure you get a head start but the speed can eventually be a problem

Especially since if they lose you they can just go back invisible and easily find you since you can see their particles but can't see which way they're looking

[spring needle]

what if we just reduced base speed to 10% for wanderer

[rich sinew]

ok

[lucid wolf]

ok

[fathom fossil]

ok

[vivid quail]

based

[last fractal]

Yes please

[spring needle]

is that enough

[rich sinew]

ya could also make him destroy blockades 20% longer.

[gentle tulip]

Ngl I kind of like the idea of garvan being about sneaking up on people and I feel its kind of a shame that he's pretty much as effective if you just barely run into someone and uncloak in their face.

So what if there was an extra clause:
Uncloaking takes considerably longer if you are within direct line of sight of a survivor. (Normalised Vector between players eyes and spirit eyes dot product with their facing vector > 0, no blocks in the way)

So watching out for his particles has a greater impact and you're not just fucked if the nearby palettes were used up even though you did notice him coming.
Adds a little more depth to garvan and more breathing room for survivors if he isn't played sneakily.

Garvan to 10% base speed is probably a fine nerf but just makes him feel more sluggish ig?

[fathom fossil]

Avoiding los would be ridiculously easy

You would never see the particles

[gentle tulip]

I am not sure what you are on about

[fathom fossil]

How often do you see wanderer particles before they enter within 10 blocks of you

[gentle tulip]

A lot of the time lol

[fathom fossil]

Bunker?

[gentle tulip]

Sure

The idea is that you'll have to advance from behind obstacles or uncloak further away

Or suffer the uncloak penalty

[fathom fossil]

Really depends on how fast he uncloaks behind objects

[gentle tulip]

Not any faster than rn

[fathom fossil]

Oh

Probably fine then

[gentle tulip]

This is just meant as penalty for being very obvious with your approach

[polar blade]

lmfao?

[polar blade]

no

[polar blade]

“lot of warning” >3 second decloak time where you’re already on a survivor and can catch up in 2 seconds

[vivid quail]

i mean thats never been that hard for me

u just gotta be good at dodging or avoiding the spirit and outplaying them

[polar blade]

applies to literally any spirit

[vivid quail]

exactly

[indigo plume]

ngl

no

i think his base speed is fine (or could maybe be knocked down to 15%)

i think decloak time could do with an increase

[polar blade]

making him terror speed or giving a speed penalty during cloak or just significantly increasing decloak time could all work

[gentle tulip]

They will also make the wanderer feel like a tumbling rock trying to catch up to anything

Also I am pretty sure cloak already has a speed penalty?

[rich sinew]

or (4th time typing this) increase time it takes for garwan destroy barricades

[polar blade]

How do we tell him

[gentle tulip]

I could be wrong? I recall it that way but idk.

[polar blade]

Brother it literally increases your speed

[gentle tulip]

Oh

You mean CLOAKED speed

Not cloak speed

Yeah ofc cloaked speed is faster

[polar blade]

Yeah I…. said “during cloak”

[gentle tulip]

Cloak is the period of turning on cloaked for me

[polar blade]

Semantics

[gentle tulip]

Regardless uh sure? Tbf it only hurts his patrol which there are way worse offenders in terms of patrol

[polar blade]

Only really taken is definitively worse

Rat can have better patrol

But at least it has counterplay by destroying burrows

Nothing against wanderer

[gentle tulip]

It would be cool to see garvan have more counterplay than just get gooder at chase

But just making wanderer stats bad is a pretty mid way to achieve that imo

[polar blade]

Why lol

Stats are everything

[gentle tulip]

Playing garvan should not feel as awful as terror raw chase

[polar blade]

It would become pretty problematic if terror suddenly got more than 5 base speed

[gentle tulip]

Terror has a trigger to hit power, garvans just assists chase

[polar blade]

What makes cloak powerful beyond just the added speed for patrolling wells is the fact that, unlike some people telling you that looking for smoke particles is consistently a foolproof strategy, many wells are in very cornered areas where you will be unable to see his smoke until he’s right on you, giving him way more initial distance on you compared to other spirits’ heartbeat

[gentle tulip]

Regardless I do think garvan should be changed to have more counterplay, but Tealy is also right that just blank nerfing his stats isnt gonna be fun

[polar blade]

So obviously something needs to change about his ability to get distance on players and scout wells

Be it either reduced cloak speed, base speed, or decloak speed

[fathom fossil]

me when wanderer can just go invis and chase me and theres nothing I can do

how do u outrun speed 3

[polar blade]

"he has to decloak so its balanced"

[spring needle]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/423579192819580930/1037517775859621958/Screenshot_20221024-0740322.gif

wanderer will be 3s behind you no matter what

[low wedge]

Could just put the pumpkin gui on a cloaked wanderer? You can't see him easily he can't see you easily

[ocean marsh]

cant do that

[low wedge]

aw would be fun though

[ocean marsh]

well its physically impossible

so .

[indigo plume]

doesnt the pumpkin gui come off in 3rd person anyway

[chrome dirge]

Give cloaked wandered nausea!

This clearly has no obvious glaring problems

[rapid totem]

You can also just f1

[rich sinew]

what if wanderers heartbeat didnt shutdown when cloaked?

[rapid totem]

I think that would make it very underpowered

Can easily detect now

Plus has to uncloak

[rich sinew]

yeah

[polar blade]

the point of cloaking is to lose detection

[radiant galleon]

yea thats the entire point

[near slate]

My only idea about cloaking detection is premonition being reworked, but that isn't really a good idea

[azure yoke]

I feel like Wanderer is critically unbalanced. On the one hand you have... Tealy, I think? insisting that it's balanced, and on the other you have 95% of the playerbase of BtB being terrified of Garvan.

[rich sinew]

Garwan doesn't have a specific counterplay.

[azure yoke]

The Wanderer's invisibility is understandably tricky to balance. If I were the CT, I'd probably give the Wanderer very low speed uncloaked, and lower speed when cloaked, and perhaps a 5-block heartbeat radius or another significant tell when cloaked.

Smoke particles are far too hard to notice.

Tealy's response to people hating Garvan is "jUsT uSe BaRrIcAdEs!!!!" which definitely seems very poor. Barricades only briefly slow down spirits; there's no real way, in my experience, to board up Wells the way Tealy says you could protect yourself from the Wanderer.

Maybe the nerf for the Wanderer could be an inability to break dropped barricades, or a slower barricade break rate?

[rich sinew]

inability would be too much

slower rate could help

[quaint sand]

Meanwhile panic zealot the keepers fine right?

[rich sinew]

panic zealot feels a bit underpowered imo but thats not really an issue

[quaint sand]

Just takes skill to use

And map knowledge

[rich sinew]

until your chat floods with "your thingy has been disarmed"

but i do agree

[quaint sand]

If only panic zealot relik was able to do stuff like that

In gameplay

[azure yoke]

Keeper feels a bit underpowered but I've never played.

[rich sinew]

it got a huge buff

16 att speed bonus

[azure yoke]

I suppose they could probably use a bit of homing, if Alem was weak; seems more difficult to hit if you're far away.

[rich sinew]

it can be deadly if played right

[quaint sand]

Just like trying to make a build for panic zealot

[azure yoke]

People are getting better in the pfinder against PZ but I still love Terror. It's fun to trap all the wells, even if half the time people know how to avoid the snares.

[rich sinew]

dawnbreak panic zealot is really nice

though bete noire blind thrust does more dmg

[civic token]

bete noire blind thrust momentum

we ignore 1/101 chance for 16 tier

[rich sinew]

ofc

[civic token]

keeper is fine rn tho

bow can hit over barricades and is nice if u are lazy to chase down a player
also lone soldiers just instantly die

[rich sinew]

taken is still very strong but no nearly as frustrating as wanderer

[azure yoke]

why do lone soldiers instantly die

[civic token]

perma injured

so u can just snipe them from far away

[azure yoke]

which is good, 'strong but not frustrating' is a good way for things to be

[civic token]

and they cant react

[azure yoke]

o yeah that would be a thing

[quaint sand]

People sound like the angry Chinese golden Freddy sound effect when you’re fallen by a wanderer

Ngl

This-

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbXmScsWndg&pp=ygUVY2hpbmVzZSBnb2xkZW4gZnJlZGR5

[spring needle]

mfw

[steep saffron]

I played it a solid once and was pretty happy with it
usage of the crossbow is not limited to sneaky snipes from far away, but for abbreviating chases too
why have a 4 block range attack when you can use a 32 block one just as well?

[spring needle]

Wanderer nerfs we're considering rn are 0.5s longer decloak, and base 10% speed rather than 20%

[civic token]

every 20% speed is gooing to be nerfed to 15 right

[azure yoke]

fair, missing a strike because of distance is always annoying

[spring needle]

yes

[azure yoke]

seems good

[rich sinew]

sounds good

[spring needle]

cool

[civic token]

sounds good

[azure yoke]

i mean now that i think about it

keeper is basically just 'the generic spirit' but with 8x range and the need to rummage through lockers

[civic token]

i feel like the problem is just people not noticiing wanderer going uninvis cuz they blind asf and idk how to solve that properly

[rich sinew]

locker thing aint a problem

[azure yoke]

the latter is not that intrusive i'd guess and the former means that just doing a standard, no tricks spirit run - finding the enemies, chasing them, hitting them - is much easier with the range

[civic token]

u def still need to use lockers theres no way u goign thru the game withj only 5 shots thats boring!!

[azure yoke]

the 'shoom shoom shoom' is very noticeable but it's absolutely terrifying because even if you book it the spirit still chases you down and it basically just prolongs your unhit life instead of keeping you safe

[azure yoke]

unless you are clint eastwood in somewhat famous film 'dirty harry'

[rich sinew]

but locker thing takes like 5 sec

[civic token]

its not that bad

[steep saffron]

you're really not going to be using more than 2 arrows in a single chase

[civic token]

pfinder is not very intellegent :3

[spring needle]

i think having wanderer emit particles constantly while decloaking could be a good change too

@ocean marsh

[civic token]

it alread has the smoke particles around it while goign unniinvs right

[spring needle]

Yeah but its in like spurts

While decloaking

[azure yoke]

i mean, sure, but in my experience that wouldn't help, i just run away from the noise and don't even notice the proper position of the decloaking garvan

[rich sinew]

imagine if we could stun wanderer while he is decloaking

[azure yoke]

also, i do like the concept of making the spirits the dead versions of major characters

[spring needle]

itd help noobs identify where they are

[rich sinew]

bonk him with a spiritual stabilizer

[civic token]

i think i did it with a barricade but i dont think it stopped the de\cloaking

[azure yoke]

colossal rat for the meme, garvan for the hollow serenity, pz for the panik, alem for the 'who even knows who this guy is', and aledar for the 'we didn't make aledar a character the players care about how do we fix this aaaaaaaa' material

[azure yoke]

that should

[steep saffron]

fight and flight now allows you to attack the spirit back
doing this 3 times will kill the spirit and win the game

[civic token]

i couldnt tell i just ran away and he caught up annwyays :3

[quaint sand]

just like the coconut gun

if it shoots ya, it's gon-na hurt

[steep saffron]

6th spirit
donkey kong

[quaint sand]

When you die you get an art piece of DK giving you a thumbs up while you hear " OK! "

[ocean marsh]

does it not?

[quaint sand]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EfvHUs_EgY

[spring needle]

Not from what ive seen

[ocean marsh]

alright

[spring needle]

its in like big spurts

[ocean marsh]

ill look at that

[spring needle]

👍

[rich sinew]

I really like the idea of being able to blindwanderer while he is decloaking. When wanderer is decloaking left clicking him with spiritual stabilizer (it should have 1 sec cooldown) would blind him for like 3 seconds giving more time for survivor to run away or hide. Wanderers could no longer just go up and decloak. They would need to maybe do it behind a wall or further away so that survivors wont left click em.

[low wedge]

ehhh i noticed a lot of people react quickly. Or as quick as they can, But i've noticed even after shifting they kinda stick for a second?

So i feel like it's an unfortunate circumstance of they notice, they try to escape but wells can delay a tiny bit to cancel?
The ones who do manage to escape instantly can end up in the scenario of they escape the chase, only to get chased quickly again right after. I feel like a nerf to the cloaking might fix the repetive chasing side where it ends up being more of a neverending chaee.

[hearty heron]

Bro youre trolling?
Because you cant be serious giving "avoie lockers" as advice ahainst taken

[near slate]

Yes you can

That's the whole point of taken

[hearty heron]

Or like "be careful" for panic zealot (you can legit just BE CAREFUL to avoid wanderer)

[near slate]

That lockers are no longer your friend

[low wedge]

Who tells him that taken has 20 block reach

[hearty heron]

Like "avoid lockers" when theres lockers on a beacon is just not possible

[near slate]

Lockers don't have the best visibility, so that isn't super effective all the time

[low wedge]

It is.

[near slate]

It's called actually learning to hide on the map

[low wedge]

The 20 block range will mean you can effectively have a locker within at least 4 wells

[near slate]

.-.

That's not very effective of the survivors if you're later in the game

[low wedge]

It is. 8 second's of glowing means the survivor has to run

Or you can be a real pain and attack the wells whenever they run

I've yet to have a taken tp near me so no idea if it gives a heartbeat but if there's a delay/doesn't. The player does need a pre warning.

[hearty heron]

No heartbeat but theres a sound

[low wedge]

Isn't that sound global though

Or stupidly far reaching

[hearty heron]

Idk

[lucid wolf]

i usually feel like i have a good idea of where taken is tping if im close enough to hear

[low wedge]

I swear i hear it even when its tp'd somewhere I'm not near

[lucid wolf]

it definitely isnt global if by that u mean that u can hear when he's tping no matter how close or far

[low wedge]

Yeah its just i notice he would tp I'd hear it and hes downed someone on the other side of the map pretty quickly

[lucid wolf]

Bead Ty Baylight

[ocean marsh]

it should be like 16 blocks range?

[ocean marsh]

they probably teleported afterwards

[low wedge]

Might be me being near it then but its bunker

[lucid wolf]

well you can hear when they cloak to get ready to tp? so maybe u heard them cloaking before tping across the map

[low wedge]

Maybe. Im fine if that's the case then

I've never had it tp near me so no idea about the warning and i can't tell as it.
But yeah. The ones who said avoid lockers you aren't doing that

[near slate]

The volume of it changes

& I meant that the survivors should've gotten at least one of those already

[low wedge]

If its woods. Sure.
But bunker? There is literally 2 or 3 well location's in range of 1 locker attack

[lucid wolf]

woods lowkey has some wells that will FCK you over

[chrome dirge]

I love pit well and tree well

Thing is spirit rarely checks those from what I’ve seen which makes them rather easy to get

Solely because they don’t think people will try them

[quaint sand]

panic zealot Terror is hard / fun to play with

[bold anchor]

yeah im kinda sick of the payment for matches

why does a hunter that elims 2/4 survs (which in 1v4 games is always considered a draw) nearly always gets less than the survs

i just had a game where i got a 4/4 elim and barely got more than the surv with the most

idk why 0/4 1/4 arent considererd surv win, 2/4 draw, and 3/4 4/4 elim as hunter win

[vast shell]

isn’t it a hunter win if they don’t power wells and surv if they do ?

[near slate]

Technically yes, logically no

[vast shell]

yeah technically

[gentle tulip]

ngl isn't it just a degree

[vast shell]

i don’t think it’s the best metric ever tho

[gentle tulip]

if survivor escaped = spirit got trolled lightly
if spirit was banished = spirit was trolled MASSIVELY

(i have never actually seen a game get a banishment done but fail to have any escapes so I will die on the hill that they are just stronger versions of another)

also what even is the essence formula??

it always just feel likes a function of how long the game went on for

[steep saffron]

shouldn't it just be 1 essence per 50 score accumulated?
I guess more of the confusion comes from how you get score
(because losing health and dodging spirit attacks gives slight amounts of points, apparently)

[lucid wolf]

it's pretty complicated but its been reverse engineered y = x/50, where x is your score and y is the amount of essence you recieve

rounded down ofc

[bold anchor]

also i think u should increase perk progress for the person kiting spirit

u kite for a while and then realise u have 30 progress

[bold anchor]

banishment?

[ocean marsh]

yea itd be nice to do this but mechanically its a little hard to implement

to a point that i dont want to do it for a minigame thats around for like 10 more days

[bold anchor]

i mean u get progress already

just increase the numbers?

[ocean marsh]

not for kiting spirit

you get points if they miss an attack near you

[bold anchor]

idk then increase that?

if thats the indicator of kiting them and wasting their time

[ocean marsh]

looking back i think i misread what you said

i thought you were asking to add a thing to give score while kiting

[lucid wolf]

can that number be bumped :3

[ocean marsh]

i can maybe increase the points given there but im not sure itll solve what you have an issue with

[bold anchor]

ideally, but imo any way to rebalance gain for the person kiting is preferable

[ocean marsh]

sure

[bold anchor]

its something at least

[lucid wolf]

like 15 or 20

would be cool

[bold anchor]

idk i just realised that if u dont let a survivor do gens they get stuck on one perk entire game

[ocean marsh]

idr what it is currently off the top of my head

yea its not ideal

[lucid wolf]

its 5

rn

[bold anchor]

:doom:

also id say with surv perks

the speed boost from vaulting is like. unbeatable

compared to the trigger conditions of some of the other speed boost ones its wayyy easier to trigger.

like 100% easy

either reduce that one or bump the other ones up

[polar blade]

banishing the spirit is the main objective and what id consider the win con

if you banish the spirit you win if you dont you lost

escaping is just a bonus objective to me

[bold anchor]

im confused what banishing actually is

[polar blade]

you power the wells

[bold anchor]

i disagree like completely

[polar blade]

ok

i mean you dont have to just take my opinion on it

[bold anchor]

dont shoot me for drawing comparison but in idv when last gen is powered and gates start opening the hunter typically has a power that means every hit is an instant down, dbd has a similar feature but idk how exposed works
so that means hunters have an even easier time downing survivors after gen progress is done

and in this the only way to kill survs is to hit them twice- if you have more than 2 people make it to end game u can basically guarantee that theyll make it out. because u rescue with full health and then just dmg boost to gate that the 3rd surv opened

still very easy for at least one person to escape if 2 make it to the end, harder to get 2 out.

so why are we punishing hunters that do well in late game?

[polar blade]

before i read everything else

this isnt other games

[bold anchor]

please dont make me find my previous message

if u make a game this similar dont get shocked when it happens

[polar blade]

im not shocked

but assuming that what other games do is exactly what this game is

is just wrong

[bold anchor]

that where ur wrong? because thats not what im doing

im not saying it is like x so u must do y

i am comparing that in this game, between finishing powering and exit gates it becomes hard to get any more eliminations than youve already got. in comparison to other asymetric games, so why does the hunter here get shafted for doing a good job

if ur saying that btb is beyond comparison to similar games then

[polar blade]

how is the hunter getting shafted

all i said is that banishment is the main win con

[bold anchor]

if the survivors get a 'win' by having 3 alive when gens are done but the hunter kills all 3 in the short window they have between gen finish and exit gate

then that does not feel fair whatsoever

the hunter had to do REALLY well to get all 3

[polar blade]

🤷

[bold anchor]

and its not considered a win

[polar blade]

stopping banishment as spirit is much easier than killing all 4 players trying to escape id say

since cycling between the last 3 or so wells is pretty easy

[bold anchor]

yes i literally agree

[polar blade]

if banishment werent the main objective then what would the point in timed gate open be

[bold anchor]

so why arent we rewarding spirits if they do well by elims/prevented escapes total

[polar blade]

if escaping was winning then literally just ignore wells and hide for 10 minutes

[bold anchor]

then why are we considering banishing as the objective

[polar blade]

if you stop banishment on spirit there is no escape segment though...?

[bold anchor]

if it gets done automatically

[polar blade]

it doesnt

the wells power down

at the end stats it literally says you failed to banish

but could have escaped

i dont really know whats going on with spirit rewards

it could probably be buffed a little idk

[bold anchor]

ok i think im being misunderstood, im not asking for what u think

[polar blade]

i never paid too much attention to it

[bold anchor]

thats what im trying to address

[polar blade]

i dont really know how you got that from what ive been saying this entire time

[bold anchor]

im trying to stress that for the hunter the main objective is to kill survs permenantly, and they should be rewarded more if they 'win' the match by killing more than the survs escaping

[polar blade]

sure man if you wanna buff spirit rewards go for it

idrk the exact numbers

nor care that much ngl

[bold anchor]

like if the survs do really well and all escape, they get good rewards and sprit gets shafted

and if spirit gets all elim, they get good rewards... and survs still get good rewards?

it feels like as long as ur working on wells as surv the fate of the match literally doesnt matter

[polar blade]

🤷 i never stress about how many points im getting

i literally just try to "win"

it's why i really hate when teammates say in chat that theyre giving up on the last wells and just hiding and waiting for gates to open

shit annoys the hell out of me

especially the amount of times where we couldve banished the spirit but didnt because they chose to not play the game

[bold anchor]

i know but if the players are trying to win by getting as many out as possible (think about the times exit gates are open but u attempt to revive the last player and get u all out)

thats telling u survivors are motivated by getting as many out

so why dotn rewards reflect

[polar blade]

idk man

it can be buffed i agree

[bold anchor]

(and still punish people that stall progress and just escape)

[polar blade]

rewards could probably be changed but my opinion on banishment being the primary objective wont

if you can still manage to kill all the survivors after failing to prevent banishment then good job

rewards could still reflect it

but if i was the spirit in that game id consider myself as having lost personally

[bold anchor]

for doing an even better job

damn

[polar blade]

sure

[bold anchor]

and if u were a survivor who had all 4 members suvive to gen finishing, and then 3 of u managed to die in the time exit gates were available

[polar blade]

i mean if you kill the survivors in escape phase then you literally did a worse job because you failed to kill them earlier

[bold anchor]

that doesnt count as a COMPLETE fail to u?

[polar blade]

and in arguably an easier phase

[bold anchor]

i mean it depends on what hunter

vermin has such an easy time in early compared to archer that can barely get around the map

[polar blade]

id just consider vermin superior to keeper in general

still though preventing banishment compared to trying to stop gates is still easier no matter the spirit id say

just because its way easier to cycle between the last 3 wells than having to go back and forth between gates

but if survivors failed to banish and were weakened in the process then it becomes easier

[bold anchor]

idk i feel like spirit should be rewarded equally between
you stalled enough gen progress and didnt get banished, and killed 2 survs, good job
you didnt stall progress enough but still got 2 survs dead, good job

but like u do not get paid the same in the slightest

[polar blade]

stopping banishment and killing all survivors should give more crystals than failing to prevent banishment but still killing all survivors

but both should have their crystals buffed sure

im really not disagreeing about that

[bold anchor]

unneccesarily punishes a hunter bad in early game but whatever

[polar blade]

theres also the problem in that if survivors stop trying to power wells and just hide then the spirit literally cant get any points

maybe you could passively get points by just existing idk

[bold anchor]

thats huge yes

neither do survs tho tbh

[polar blade]

i mean thats on them

on spirit your goal literally is to kill them

[bold anchor]

but their inaction causes everyone to get less

[polar blade]

if youre just fucking around as a survivor then you dont deserve any points

[bold anchor]

true but as u said thats punishing the spirit too

[polar blade]

i know

thats why i said spirit could probably just get passive points or something

or points for survivors not making any progress on wells

[bold anchor]

idv has a system where if u spend too long not decoding, not rescuing, not assisting etc then eventually your location gets revealed
if this got added and the rewards from kills by spirit then it would motivate survs to do something

so the surv cant just waste everyones time including spirit

[polar blade]

sure

id love for people who give up on powering and just wait for gates to open to have their location revealed

fuck them

[bold anchor]

other survs get to progress wells in peace as they arent glowing to hunter and get points

maybe something a bit too hard to implement now, but something to think about for event rerun

[polar blade]

🤷 i still consider banishment as the main win con and i dont really think spirits are balanced around being better in one phase specifically or the other

terror keeper and vermin are all probably pretty balanced? wanderer as most think is still busted and taken i think is probably close to it

just not as many people are good at taken though

i usually pick vermin because funny rat and i dont feel like im cheating

and also doesnt really care about which map it is

keeper is fun sometimes though

crossbow can be pretty satisfying to use

[bold anchor]

no i lie

wanderer is weird but if it rooted u in place when u decloak i wouldnt be annoyed at it

cause the stats before ability is the same as vermin

[polar blade]

could work idk

im sure lex is cooking something up

[lucid wolf]

isn’t it like 3 seconds

on an 80 second cooldown

[polar blade]

personally i would just make being cloaked a slight speed penalty so it doesnt have insane scouting ability and can still use cloak for what it was meant to be and sneak up on players powering wells in cramped areas where it's hard to detect smoke

it's 90 seconds

it was less before but it got nerfed to 90

[bold anchor]

yeah and look at the trigger conditions on the other ones

[polar blade]

it's fine given the cooldown

[lucid wolf]

i think blood rush is nasty, even after nerf

[polar blade]

still an easy take but broken ankles and fight and flight have like half the cooldown

[lucid wolf]

8 seconds is insane for escaping a spirit and getting hidden again

[ocean marsh]

was originally 120, i nerfed it to 60 before release, then post-launch put it back up to 90

[polar blade]

i c

[bold anchor]

yeah imagine if instead of blood rush u just combo a dmg boost with vault

[polar blade]

well i think it's probably fine still

[ocean marsh]

our planned wanderer changes are just reducing base speed to +10% and increasing time it takes to decloak by 0.5s

and making particles more visible

[polar blade]

just on paper i dont think itd be enough or how id personally change it but we'll see

[hearty heron]

Youre just about to murder it

[polar blade]

lol...?

[long meteor]

oh no! anyway

[ocean marsh]

i think the cloaked speed will decrease as well

since its based on regular speed

[polar blade]

what's broken ankles cooldown again

[ocean marsh]

60s i think?

[lucid wolf]

good

[polar blade]

could probably lower that a good bit i think

considering the risk involved in using it

[lucid wolf]

the “risk” is who you’re up against

one time i tried it against linny, never again

[polar blade]

i mean if you're up against a pinhead spirit then pretty much any perk will work anyways

[lucid wolf]

but most pfinder spirits (including me cuz i’m on a fucking trackpad while at college) will not be expecting that sort of juking movement

[long meteor]

45s I think

[lucid wolf]

me trying to get blood rush but the spirit keeps missing 😡

[long meteor]

but yeah broken ankles cooldown is way too long imo

[polar blade]

🤨

not sure how it's too short when you risk taking damage compared to parkour and fight and flight

[long meteor]

misspoke

[polar blade]

ah

wouldnt say it's too long either but it is deserving of a buff

[long meteor]

fight and flight is also too long imo

[polar blade]

i dont really remember what it is either but it could probably be shortened too

[hearty heron]

[fathom fossil]

Stun for 3 seconds of speed with no cool-down is pretty good

[polar blade]

meant the cooldown

[fathom fossil]

I don’t think that has a cool-down

Don’t remember one being mentioned at least

[polar blade]

it does

[long meteor]

it has like a 45s cooldown lol

[peak lance]

that sounds a bit excessive tbh

[long meteor]

they're nerfing base speeds of the other spirits too

[civic token]

rlly? i thought it waas just all 20% speed -> 15% speed(which is jsut taken and rat)

[polar blade]

wanderer rat and taken are all 20

but wanderer will take a bigger hit

[ocean marsh]

yea

wanderer's going from 20 to 10

as well

[civic token]

ye

[long meteor]

are there any changes to vermin burrow destroy speed

[polar blade]

ive changed my mind about vermin burrow destroy speed

i think it's really fair now

[safe junco]

im curious what changed your mind

[lucid wolf]

i havent played in a bit. ill get back to u once i lose a game to vermin about how broken vermin is

[polar blade]

just playing more

[ocean marsh]

im not a fan of vermin instantly cancelling destruction when it decides to travel, but i've been given the counterpoint that itd be weird if a burrow gets destroyed while the vermin is travelling to it

[rich sinew]

@hearty heron avoiding lockers aint always possible, especially in bunker, but ya can hear when taken tps

[vast shell]

j have it pop out insta

[quaint sand]

Me making an obligatory watership down movie reference by cutting off the vermin’s exit ways from their burrows

[vast shell]

Do you guys collect data on killer and perk usage & win rates? if not then adding that for next year may be helpful for balance decision making.

[hearty heron]

Counterpoint: pfinder

[polar blade]

raw data can be useful but usually should be taken with a grain of salt

[safe junco]

gonna be real perks also depend on the skill of the players using them

as well as the skill of the opposing team

[civic token]

narnia

[ocean marsh]

im not sure we have the tools to track those stats, but that would definitely be good to have in the future if possible

[last fractal]

Just curious, is it possible to track how many haunted masks were bought?

[ocean marsh]

nope

[vivid quail]

raise your hand if you have a haunted mak

✋

[quaint pike]

If you want to nerf wanderer just probably make him take more time to decloak ig

But then make taken not as oppressive to play against too, I always feel like he's always next to me

[white night]

what is the haunted mask

[vivid quail]

rare gadget thing for playing around 200 games of btb

[white night]

ahhh

[near slate]

Make Bottled Spirits stagger invis wanderer

[safe junco]

💀

[near slate]

Not a big stagger, just a second or two

Bc the community is the spirits

[quaint sand]

" Buffed Panic Zealot relik "

Guys the terror got buffed finally

[rough otter]

Survivors now gain score for powering an Exit gate.
will this like
do anything?

like during powering they mean?

[near slate]

Essence

Maybe a power up

[rough otter]

ohhh you mean like the shop currency?

cuz like if you power the exit gate you arent gonna have much use for powerups

[ocean marsh]

score is what gives you currency after the game

50 score = 1 spiritual essence

[chrome dirge]

hooray the +12 bonus attack speed tiers will let me kill survivors 0.1s faster

[quaint sand]

Oh, I swear they should have just buffed it’s damage and ID to also apply to puppets to

[steep saffron]

furious effigy now makes every single aspect of shaman twice as fast

job done

[chrome dirge]

idk any other changes it just has +16 max tiers now

cancelstack is back

[steep saffron]

panic zealot
the true hybrid weapon

[civic token]

dawnbreaak cstack >:)

bettee thaan lumina

[safe junco]

new scoring system goes wild

[polar blade]

spirit getting a lot more essence is whatever since u can only play it ever so often

[civic token]

holy mol

watf

SEVEN HUNDRED FIFTY

FROM KILING 3 FELLAS

incredible

[vast shell]

the extra essence is great.

[lucid wolf]

Attack bonus went from max +4 to max +16, all 3 spellcost reductions went from like max -120% to -180%, and the base damage of the weapon was buffed by 25%

456 --> 568

[long meteor]

yeah so the escape beacon can apparently spawn directly on the gate switch

making it impossible to activate or destroy bc the hitbox overlaps with the inactive gate switch

[spring needle]

@ocean marsh

[ocean marsh]

thats funny

[vivid quail]

only in wynncraft

[gentle tulip]

Coming to a local festival minigame near you

[azure yoke]

just discovered someone with absolute dedication.

trying to farm essence while (according to them) their city was being bombed

can't throw a stone without hitting a war these days even if it's a digital stone apparently

[hearty heron]

Good feedback

[daring owl]

d

[tired mural]

69k score and 420 best well contribution

[polar blade]

grind never stops 💪

[last fractal]

lol just got 19 essence as a spirit, I like this change

[ocean marsh]

spirit score's being lowered some soon

[last fractal]

ig its time to sweat the game

[wintry cliff]

Time to speedrun spirit mask grinding

[quaint pike]

still no keeper buffs after the patch 😭

and taken feels as opressive as it was

I always feel like he's everywere I go

[safe aspen]

No nerf besides 5% speed....

Can still troll the pfinder lobbies 🔥🔥🔥

After all that's what it's all about

[steep saffron]

People dunking on Keeper still?
That crossbow is very useful to have on hand

[spring needle]

ppl underestimate keeper

2s attack cooldown with the bow leads to many double taps

[wintry cliff]

i love keeper

few times ive killed all survivors was with it

[polar blade]

keeper is good

[gentle tulip]

keeper is the true goat now

wanderer dethroned from very enjoyable cute lil killer

[gentle loom]

I can't decide if Wanderer is better than Taken

[indigo plume]

nicktree why no ct rank in discord

[indigo plume]

wanderer kinda plays like shit now

overnerfed imo

actually maybe not

[boreal ferry]

nah samsam wanderer still op

[civic token]

keeper is very cool
hitscan >:))

[tired mural]

any other spirits having issues with suddenly not being able to interact with anything?

cant interact with blockades, wells, shooting bow, reloading bow, normal attack, etc

[ocean marsh]

yeah this is a bug that i dont know the cause of

apparently getting stunned takes you out of that state?

[tired mural]

OH

thank you for maybe temp fix

[tired mural]

Happened to someone in my party, then myself. Both times, we were jumping during an attack or special ability use

maybe has something to do with jump fatigue

[polar blade]

I’ve had a few games recently where it just feels like vermin teleport doesn’t work at all

Literally just spam clicking at multiple burrows but to no avail

[tired mural]

have you got the burrowing item in your hand?

[polar blade]

Ya

[tired mural]

not the attacking one

rip

Oki I've had 4 games in a row where the spirit has bugged out and not been able to use their abilities

[near slate]

Have you tried the classic fix of hitting them with a blockade?

[polar blade]

absolutely useless

[steep saffron]

say
what is the context of this image

[polar blade]

its just my frustration with people who give up powering and wait for wells to end so they can try to escape

in this game i had the last well at 90% as the other guy intentionally just hid in a locker

[safe junco]

oh that guy 💀

i usually only hide in lockers to surprise strike and when i know someone in the party that can lead the killer to said locker

[polar blade]

he was also screaming in chat for people to revive him the moment he got killed which was fun

[quaint sand]

that guy probably doesn't get that teamwork makes the dreams work w/ the spirit wells

[spring needle]

same outcome! 🙂

doing spirit wells is optional

[polar blade]

idk if ur serious or not

[spring needle]

im not

[lucid wolf]

i dont feel so good....

anyway im surprised that no one added daily challenges for BtB

sorry i dont mean challenges for the game, i mean like during the festival, make it so the daily challenge that players can get have a chance to be brb related

like "banish a spirit, revive/heal 3 people, knock down 3 people in one game as spirit" that sort of thing

obviously some of those might be too annoying as a daily (like if i just want my free crate i'd rather get "win dungeon 0/1" but it'd still be cool to have some push for players to play more of the game

then again if people want to play they will and if they’re forced to because of a challenge they prob wont be very fun teammates

[rich sinew]

same, I have a vid too.

[hearty heron]

Heal players legit impossible on pfinder

[lucid wolf]

LOL true

[gentle tulip]

god terror on the woods is geniuenely unplayable

the only narrow corridors have palettes or are circumventible
there is like two wells that can be trapped up to be hard to escape when approached correctly and everything else is spread so far apart.

it's geniuenely not enjoyable to go against anyone that even barely understands what disarming is

[quaint pike]

Disarming could reveal players too ig

[gentle tulip]

eh you already know where people are

[quaint pike]

Nvm maybe just making the traps larger

[gentle tulip]

by just memorising what you put down

larger trap could help but woods is also much more open in the sense that

woods is areas just connected to each other

bunker is mostly hallways that doesn't intersect with another tooo often

so there is clear paths from a to b

that you can exploit, but woods there is typically 2-3 different openings between areas and trapping all of them off takes too many snares or or too much time to set up

disarming is way too good and there isn't really a great solution about changing disarming itself

if you make it so pz can teleport to disarmed oens too (but like only after 4s) it becomes too good for pz and making them take longer to disarm doesn't really solve the issue that pz knows where survivors are, he just cannot reach them

so honestly? make it so they have a hard time disarming by making traps incredibly hard to see

like shove the jewel further into the ground so only the very very tip is visible

and no particles for survivors at all

[azure yoke]

feedback: there should be a channel for discussion of fest minigames

[hearty heron]

Feedback: no more feedback. Everyone who tries to give feedback gets coated inchocolate and fed to qira

[steep saffron]

I question if disarming is the right move with snares
The spirit gets notified that someone was there, and they get to put a new snare down
Could be better just to sneak past a snare

[gentle tulip]

lol terror does not have the mobility to check up whenever a snare is broken

disarming is ALWAYS the right choice unless you are directly being chased

[vagrant fog]

Terror is only great if the people you are playing against are bad at the game. If they are really bad it is probably the easiest sweep

[chrome dirge]

to quote someone from pfinder, "terror is aggressively mid"

[polar blade]

sometimes you can be forced into a snare during a chase but terror is probably still the worst overall spirit yeah

[quaint sentinel]

nah i like terror

if you know where you placed your snares

and wich ones got disarmed

you can easily have full map control

[last fractal]

terror is fun and I will always take it if I cant go taken

[gentle tulip]

don't quote myself to me

[polar blade]

you can know where people are but your slow ass still needs to get to them

[gentle tulip]

terror works on bunker to the extent that getting a teamsweep is about as hard as vermin or wanderer

on woods the snares just aren't triggered enough to give you the mobility you need

so it's find a 3 gen, hard defend it to not get banished at least and then try to secure one killer with camping once wells time out

it's very silly

[rich sinew]

I disagree. There wasn't a player who wouldnt let me heal them

[polar blade]

yeah for a while now it seems like majority of people in pfinder are aware of healing

unless it looks like they are literally new everyone i run into usually knows how to heal and be healed

[gentle tulip]

the new hot trend with pfinder is predropping every palette you come across 💀

[chrome dirge]

moment

[peak lance]

the problem is that unlike every other spirit, terror has no player agency. The best and worst terror players are only as good as the worst player on the enemy team, because good players will know to avoid snares. If the spirit places snares at choke points, they are entirely at the mercy of map & well rng to hope that theres enough proper chokes to actually get the snares to proc.

If terror's inverted heartbeat gimmick were separated from snare trigger it would live up to it's name much better imo

[spring needle]

I think terror is pretty comfortable where its at ngl