Shaman Feedback: The Thread

[wind nova]

What is UP shaman mains, today we rise

This thread is for all the shaman feedback bc we keep flooding general class/abilities threads with them for some reason. If you want to talk about shaman, this place is for you!

Here are some of the feedback previously mentioned about shaman:
-Summoner needs a new final red node
-Preferably a cool new summon
-Anything that makes summoner less boring, really
-Ritualist masks need to be more engaging to use
-Ritualist/Acolyte gameplay is mostly just aura spam; they need better spell cycling options
-Acolyte blood sorrow is
-Acolyte self-heal is pretty meh; fluid healing needs some adjustments
-insert aco reliks nuance here
-Make regeneration + fluid healing a thing

Feel free to add more! We gonna talk anything and everything about shaman, baby

now that i look at it, it all really boils down to "shaman is pretty boring rn"

anyways here's some I'd like to add:
-aco needs a few more nodes, at the VERY least a single 2 ap node
-what if summoner-ritualist is viable 🥺
-buff flaming tongue
-twisted tether should require sac shrine
-double totem motl aco is still a thing 😭😭 but ig it's no longer bc it's too good of an option, but bc it's the only good option
-aka pls make full rit/full aco actually satisfying and worth it to use 🙏

[proud moon]

Why can't I use uproot on ritualist if I crouch with no mask

I want to cast uproot

it makes me sad, I want to try a hybrid summoner ritualist build, and the game just doesn't let you

[wind nova]

yeah summoner being reliant on uproot and ritualist getting rid of it makes them counteract each other hard

[viral bear]

Ritu tree sucks mad di**

[cyan geode]

I'd assume cuz lunatic mask with summoner is crazy dmg

[viral bear]

It's basically a straight line with like nothing to choose between

Sorta like trickster tree

[cyan geode]

I feel like ritualist is a branch tree of acolyte lmfao

[wind nova]

dude fr 💀

shaman has two archetypes:
-summoner
-mask acolyte

[cyan geode]

Also that regen with fluid healing suggestion is 🔥

[proud moon]

it was never tested AS FAR AS I KNOW. it could've been tested briefly by salted & zeer without it ever getting on the staff test

[cyan geode]

Yeah

[wind nova]

yeah it got mentioned in 2.0.2 feedback thread and i think it's a cool idea too

[cyan geode]

Also acolyte dmg felt a bit meh

But I was using hybrid so not a valid opinion

[wind nova]

yeah acolyte/ritualist damage is pretty all over the place rn bc of how often they get mixed up

which i think could easily be patched by making blood sorrow actually viable lol

[cyan geode]

Blood sorrow will never be viable

Cuz just think about it

Archer final nodes are meh
Assassin final nodes are fine, kinda good
Warrior final nodes are meh except discomb
Mage final notes except arcanist are meh
And thus, shaman final nodes will remain meh

[viral bear]

Warrior final nodes are good

[wind nova]

truly one of the wynncraft moments of all time

assassin/mage final nodes are goated

[wind nova]

I'm so confused about what the people's opinion on blood pact is

second chance (and paladin in general) needs an update but that's for another thread lol

[gray gale]

How to fix shaman: rework ritualist, buff acolyte damage ( not saying acolyte is weak, but imo acolyte should have the highest dps of any archetype after summoner ), and let us pet summoners puppets

[wind nova]

let us pet summoners puppets
you sir are a genius

[gray gale]

[supple fox]

I want regeneration to be better at base

Because still it heals less than 1.20 one

[sullen path]

Ritualist is really solid for mob clearing (don't use double totem as it significantly reduces it's effectiveness) and happens to be some godlike choice for NOL (because of the mob spam), but aside from that, seeking totem needs to be changed to something better because right now it's literally a downgrade - it rarely helps and most the time hinders, and frog dance needs a change or buff. Mask of the awakened also has really horrible synergy with the rest of ritualist, since uproot does jack all when you have it on, meaning you can't activate chant of the fanatic / coward, or get mana from casting uproot.

I would like to see more benefits for staying in mask of the fanatic or coward, because right now you spend 90% of your time in mask of the lunatic, 1% of the time in fanatic to get the insane defence buff and 9% of the time in coward for the movement speed.

[supple fox]

Seeking totem could make totem tick more often I guess

[sullen path]

As for summoner, I don't have much clue, it's just a boring archetype to me, I stopped playing it after it got nerfed.

Acolyte is in a weird spot because some weapons make it an exceptionally good choice (cough cough absolution), and aside from that there isn't much build diversity, maybe except hpr builds I guess. Also blood sorrow is kinda dumb and flame tongue is still quite meh in comparison to just aura spamming with MOTL. 🤷

[supple fox]

Oh I know, we could swap mask debuffs

[wind nova]

I would like to see more benefits for staying in mask of the fanatic or coward
100% this

[wind nova]

oof acolyte build diversity mention

[sullen path]

idk those are the two most common builds I see if anyone is playing acolyte. Other builds that don't rely on fluid healing or hpr have their life on the line and almost any mistake (like casting aura too fast, stepping out of auras range, being hit by a truck) is certain death.

[wind nova]

yeah definitely. i want to see more discussion about this topic ngl, tho i can't contribute much bc i don't know much about builds

but as an abso user imma say, it heavily makes aco a lot more forgiving to play

[hard heath]

bloodpact is useless and second chance is only useful for wars or hic

[wind nova]

either you're useless as an acolyte unless you have an optimized af build, or you use abso and solo everything. i know abso is a mythic but the gap is too wide

[hard heath]

hadal and wd stacking also works

[wind nova]

yeah anything that has a ton of water damage, which is pretty limiting build-wise. especially compared to lightbender which you can thrive in despite not having that much water dmg

[cyan geode]

I mean yeah they're preety cool for assassin but

Timelock and the mage heal buff is meh asf

[cyan geode]

Second chance is meh unless ur warring
Blood pact is meh too

[wind nova]

"better final red nodes pls" has always been a thing, and it very much still is lol

the 2.0.2 tree changes was a good direction tho, especially with the assassin update. some final red nodes are defo gonna be improved at some point

[grand swift]

i feel like there should be some differentiation between healing allies and healing yourself in the fluid healing node

as it is acolyte's healing to party members is strong, but it loses most of it's healing value on yourself due to the health drained to cast the heal in the first place

[hard heath]

Keep in mind that there is an upgrade where 35% of all damage taken inside yor totems is also added to your bloodpool so...

[grand swift]

well yes but that applies to the shaman too

in all situations the shaman is contributing more health to the blood pool than allies, which means allies still get a higher net heal than the shaman does when aura is cast

[supple fox]

Blood pact is also useful in wars I guess. And I actually had one situation where second chance saved me during raid where I didn't expect taking so much damage

[hard heath]

alka is no longer meta though
and skill issue

[supple fox]

Ye, I know

[supple fox]

Maybe it's not caused by fluid healing, but it definitely is by double totem

[supple fox]

In theory blood pact + rally = infinite spells

[dry tartan]

erm well

[shell canyon]

wtf is bro saying

Crepuscular ray is like the coolest ability ever, and Martyr is insanely good

[cyan geode]

final red node of paladin is second chance...

[shell canyon]

that one

[cyan geode]

with 15 mins cooldown, this doesnt make the game more fun in any way

[shell canyon]

so are you trying to say those are boring or unviable?

[cyan geode]

both kinda, generally ur not gonna survive much if u caused ur second chance to procc (considering u prolly have a shit skill tree if going full pala)

[shell canyon]

but thats just paladin being shit, it doesnt mean the ability itself is bad

[cyan geode]

I mean the 15 mins cooldown makes the ability something so specific use its not even notticable

[shell canyon]

15 min doesnt matter since you're not gonna die anyway

how frequently do you die with paladin?

[cyan geode]

(I subjectively dont like the final nodes of riftwalker, paladin, fallen, riftwalker, lightbender, acolyte, ritualist, trapper, boltslinger)

[cyan geode]

that's wrose, so ur saying that the ability almost never gets used then

[shell canyon]

in the few times you die it saves you at the cost of 2 ability points

[cyan geode]

the very few times, as I said its specific use and thus not that fun to use as its hardly used

[shell canyon]

I never said it was fun

[cyan geode]

imo if something is not fun, for me its not good, and fun for me is something that's used often and makes a decent change to my gameplay

[shell canyon]

right, its a good ability on a bad playstyle

fallen players would be ballin with second chance all day

[cyan geode]

fr

[weak kraken]

My brain is fried so sorry if this is dumb. I wish effigy could get agro from mobs. I feel this would really “help” the tankiness of summoner since it doesn’t have any “good” defensive abilities

[wind nova]

why is this thread a warrior red node thread now

[wind nova]

imma just @light sparrow

my brain is just as fried

[weak kraken]

Imo awaking mask is a “great” final node I just think frog mask needs a change. I find the biggest “disappointment” is how lame the upgrade to that spell is, if it were changed to be able to be cycled in combat “better” I find it would round out “most” of that archetypes problem

I don’t have any ideas on how to do that tho cause I’m dumb

[slender aspen]

Twisted tether is mid; interesting concept that should be expanded upon with a design based upgrade node rather than a stat based node. Start it off with stronger tether damage, rework stronger tether to something else

[light sparrow]

I just wish they undid the nerfs to summoner from this patch, that’s a massive buff to make it actually competent in endgame again with the right build. They should also rid Shepard as a red skill, and replace it with a third summon while fusing puppet master and Shepard, or just make a purple skill-

(At best youd need a high spell dmg crafted set to use summoner or something equally as so right now)

[slender aspen]

Make the final red node a healing/tankiness/sustain based summon that makes up for regen being crappy

[slender aspen]

-aco needs a few more nodes, at the VERY least a single 2 ap node

I disagree, basically every node on acolyte feels significant and leaves room to dip into other trees if desired. I'd rather have a concise, tight tree with mostly playstyle influencing upgrades and a few minor ones than a tree with a sh*tton of trash or minor stat tweak nodes (see ritualist)

[wind nova]

yeah twisted tether is just passive damage that delays your blood pool whenever you use it

[wind nova]

did they actually say why they nerfed summoner? i still have no idea why

[wind nova]

ngl I'm just basing off of what full ap costs has worked for other archetypes. and imo more nodes gives you a clearer option between singling in on an archetype or mixing it up with others

[light sparrow]

They didn’t give any reason why as of to my knowledge

Nerfing summoner didn’t make any difference in how fast other classes kill Greg than shaman though despite being the strongest single target dps archetype for an AOE class. Since even in this patch I’ll see Greg die in 15 seconds and not do anything because that one or two fallen warrior(‘s) with the crafted set just going ham for me

[wind nova]

rn aco full ap cost is cheaper than the other archetypes which kinda makes it a bit too.. loose per se?

[wind nova]

well lots of the damage are being nerfed already anyways so

[supple fox]

Ummm, actually it's 10 minutes 🤓

[light sparrow]

I should also mention according to some people if your archetype or class isn’t good in endgame content (TNA) then you’d be considered a waste of space due to not meeting a status quo.

Though there’s more to do than just that endgame wise

[supple fox]

Hmm I wanna see more blood pool usage for damage instead of healing

[wind nova]

idk much about frog dance ngl tho some people have said it's pretty weird to work with

[light sparrow]

I know I heard one person say they want blood pool heals to be stronger on the shaman itself but weaker on the other players so the shaman can stay alive

[wind nova]

honestly same

[light sparrow]

Natures jolt > Frog dance

[supple fox]

Good enough

[wind nova]

oof yeah. the whole raid meta is a whole can of worms itself lol

[supple fox]

(+ nerf abso)

[wind nova]

fr? i've tried nature's jolt before and it's aoe is so small

and does it actually fit the summoner playstyle?

[supple fox]

I've been kicked from raid once for using shaman

[light sparrow]

I just find the extra jumps too complicated to do the dmg

[wind nova]

yeah fair

[light sparrow]

Same and I still use full summoner or ritualist with vengeful spirit

[light sparrow]

Natures jolt don’t include the little bounce but rather just a grand slam of 3 blocks long. I think they should make it 5 blocks radius

[weak kraken]

Agree but I do really like frog dance for moving around the map in general

[light sparrow]

I forgot to mention that part, Frog dance > Natures jolt in mobility / jumping

[wind nova]

ok i think haul being an offensive tool in general is pretty weird itself, or is it just me

[light sparrow]

The issue is that the AOE to hit foes with it forces you to be in ear licking distance to do the damage

[weak kraken]

I wish it was like old teleport, where if you go through enemy’s you blind and stun them. Having shaman be a “moving hitbox” instead of a hitbox when he lands would help using haul for “dps” imo

[wind nova]

yeah exactly. it's pretty out of place from the whole shaman experience which is based a lot on kiting and dodging

[supple fox]

Oh and about regeneration,
I can prove that triple totem regen is worse than regen in 1.20

[weak kraken]

Rip

[light sparrow]

Natures jolt just needs to have an extended block radius of like 5 so you aren’t too close to enemies to hurt yourself but want to crash land to enemies

[weak kraken]

Is single totem regen better than triple?

[supple fox]

No, I'm comparing versions

[wind nova]

hell you can probably move nature jolt to haul cast instead of haul landing

[wind nova]

oof rip

[weak kraken]

Honestly I really wish this was talked about more I miss old regen a lot

[light sparrow]

Natures jolt just knocking back enemies like

[supple fox]

One fact is obvious, it's the lack of water damage scaling, but this didn't matter at all
Second fact might be less obvious, but whenever you uprooted the totem it gave you an extra healing tick

So potential max heal output if you cycled with 2 auras and one uproot was higher

Roughly by 33% with no water damage, at 6 cps

[wind nova]

oh wait is the kb good?

[cyan geode]

*shaman not just summoner

I played aco and couldn't get decent dmg with it either

[wind nova]

what if regen and blood aura are affected differently by double/triple totem

[supple fox]

See, I told you that double totem nerf was overkill

[cyan geode]

Twisted tether.

It really was huh

[light sparrow]

Si*

[cyan geode]

Summoner ironically still gets more dps with stuff like hybrid builds

[supple fox]

Self heal was also dropped by like 40% with no water damage (I'm talking about net gain)

[light sparrow]

It doesn’t do KB I was being hypothetical :(

[wind nova]

ah. well i think nature's jolt having kb is great

ngl rn between having double totem, motl, and blood sorrow, I'm more consistent with blood sorrow

[cyan geode]

Shaman is back to 1.20 shaman now lmao

[supple fox]

(worse in some aspects I think)

[cyan geode]

Wait nah

[supple fox]

Like survivability

[cyan geode]

1.20 was worse but now shaman is pretty close again

Regen? Yes 100% that shit sucks

[supple fox]

And stacked with agi+def nerfs...

• general need for more mobility

[light sparrow]

Shaman needs the same treatment like assassin got tbh, new skills for all the archetypes and reworks / some buffs.

[wind nova]

that's what I'm sayinnnnn

[supple fox]

Mhm, yeah

[wind nova]

i think flaming tongue needs to be more viable as a damage option for aco

[light sparrow]

Because what they did to flaming tongue / aco / summoner was down dirty.

[wind nova]

flaming tongue is just very meh rn compared to blood aura, even before the elem conversion changes

it's aoe is small, it deals less damage,

[supple fox]

Hmm maybe stronger flaming tongue ability

[wind nova]

yesssssssss

[light sparrow]

Make flaming tongue light enemies on fire

[wind nova]

i made a thread about flaming tongue yk

[wind nova]

yeah anything that makes it actually relevant in combat is nice

i can imagine flaming tongue being aco's main source of damage, while aura is mostly used for heals/crowd control if you have storm dance

which you'll 100% take as aco bc you got too many heckin free ap

[weak kraken]

i miss 1.20 shaman. it felt like it had super good cc and mob "control" while also feeling like it heals a decent amount. im just brain dead tho

[supple fox]

Or maybe, way to generate blood from enemies (sacrifice them, not you) and some node that makes your aura even stronger but drains more blood pool

[wind nova]

my memories of pre-2.0 wynncraft is just dying in saint's row and losing all my items

[wind nova]

yep yep yep

adding extra nodes is a good opportunity to flesh out an archetype even further

which I really think aco needs bc it's so tied to masks rn

[cyan geode]

I do not miss 1.20 shaman

Summoner is atleast nicer than that, but acolyte now feels a ton like 1.20 shaman but without uproot

[wind nova]

yeah aco self-heal defo needs to get looked at

without abso it doesn't even feel like a heal, it's more like a mitigation for the next few seconds your totem is gonna drain your health

even with rebound aura self-heal is incredibly weak

[supple fox]

(Net gain with double totem is 6% health without water damage)

[wind nova]

6%??????? 💀💀

[supple fox]

Yup

[wind nova]

nawh that's crazy bad that needs to get looked at

[supple fox]

But it massively increases with water damage

(so another point to abso)

[wind nova]

oof ur right

ok i still don't think double totem nerfs needs to get reverted, but there's gotta be some adjustments made

[slender aspen]

Water damage shouldn't be mandatory for the healing not to be trash 💀 makes basic game progression way more difficult

[wind nova]

massive agree on that

[supple fox]

With triple totem is no gain no matter what you do because I don't believe you can get 3rd totem with water damage

[wind nova]

yeah no one does triple totem aco anyways

unless sac shrine summoner is a thing?

[supple fox]

(Has to be ritualist)

[wind nova]

oh. do people actually go with that build?

it looks.. impractical

[cyan geode]

I used to use that back when triple totem didnt drain triple hp

[blazing galleon]

if you think current shaman regardless of whatever your design viewpoints on it are is anywhere near 1.20 shaman level you are crazy

at least in terms of damage

[cyan geode]

I was getting 60k dps with abso hybrid

[night elbow]

i got 70k dps with sunstar hybrid in 1.20

[cyan geode]

that was 2.0 dmg btw

[blazing galleon]

cool

[buoyant fog]

Acolyte just feels super weird. I'm honestly confused why people would want to play it regularly? I spec into it for scrap, but otherwise I'd just go summoner, which isn't very exciting either.

[slender aspen]

Acolyte is fun imo. The high risk high reward playstyle it offers is one of the archetypes i was most excited for pre 2.0 release

[buoyant fog]

or just play like RiftBender Mage, without the risk.

[slender aspen]

Snoozefest (playstyle preference)

[tepid walrus]

acolyte isn’t really risky

at least not if you have a somewhat ok build and don’t kill yourself

[wind nova]

aco has massive aoe, good damage, and self-sustain

[buoyant fog]

the aoe is* why I got a character over at scrap

[wind nova]

well yeah. compared to lightbender, acolyte damage hits harder and larger

but in turn lightbender heals are a lot more reliable

[blazing galleon]

riftbender mages trying to kill multiple enemies at a time

[slender aspen]

Design wise it's supposed to be at least somewhat; drain your own health to deal more damage. In practice obviously depending on the build/progression in the game it can play out differently

[twilit summit]

what about making blood sorrow not cripple you

or jsut removing it and adding something with good dps so acolyte can be good in raids

[terse coyote]

shamen

[slender aspen]

Imo increasing base health drain rate of sac shrine and reducing the amount it's boosted by double/triple would also be nice so double isn't mandated bcs health drain isn't fast enough without

[lilac yew]

huh? Acolyte is definitely high risk mid reward, though

50k-70k damage but with heals that also drain your own health coupled with an inferior movement spell and lowest base resist

[buoyant fog]

Also useless without your totem out, so you rely on specific condition

[lilac yew]

the only shaman defenders i've seen are the CT who gutted the class + nipnop

[buoyant fog]

To be fair, the latest update reduced blood sorrow's HP drain didn't it? So you don't die as easily from it

[blazing galleon]

classes when they have strengths and weaknesses

[slender aspen]

Went from 70 to 60 to 70 again

Assume you mean bp drain

[slender aspen]

In theory it's high risk high reward based on its design; the reality is different. Should've clarified that in original message

[grand swift]

in other words only if you have a 150% + water dmg build

[tepid walrus]

i love abso

[grand swift]

and i love having to use anamnesis on practically every build /s

[tepid walrus]

i do not love anam

[night elbow]

I do love anam because it makes my lr build work

[sudden scaffold]

shaman kind of a baddie thoug 🥺

[cyan geode]

You mean low risk low reward?

[cyan geode]

I think people just like the self sustain, cuz other archetypes have the same aoe

[blazing galleon]

some other classes might have good aoe but nothing quite competes with acolyte

[cyan geode]

true but what is the content that relies on the aoe

[blazing galleon]

any tna room lol

not like theyre not doable without it ofc, but acolyte just excels compared to everything else

i really hate the "but what content requires it" argument because that's not reason enough to make it solely viable for tna boss like everything else and that future content cant be designed around it

[supple fox]

Nothing really competes with aco + hymn of hate

[wind nova]

fair

[wind nova]

wdym-

wait what if blood sorrow made you float like crep ray and timelock 🤯

[cyan geode]

I mean if future content is designed around aoe that's great

[slender aspen]

Read 6 messages above

[cyan geode]

6 messages above is Nipnop talking about shaman damage not being like 1.20

While in actuality acolyte is the safest class due to it's high healing (with abso) and it deals low dmg too

if you think 60k is high dps you havent played other classes or even summoner

[wind nova]

summoner-ritualist hybrid viability suggestion: chant of the fanatic should reset totem duration

tho it's hideously far down the tree

and locked behind motc holy shi

nawh the tree is so against the idea of summoner and ritualist even touching each other

[light sparrow]

The tree’s racist to summoner

[wind nova]

the only other thing that can make summ-rit hybrid decent is with motf with its cheaper totem buff. tho it's locked behind hymn of hate and in extention, motl

[wind nova]

yeah honestly I'm starting to see that 🥲

summ-rit being unviable is a consequence of, ironically, ritualist lacking a solid identity

just as equally as it's the reason for aco and rit overmixing

ritualist having a good identity would make hybrids with other archetypes a lot more satisfying for having clear strengths to offer

rn the clear strengths it's offering is stat multipliers, which essentially is what ritualist is all about rn

and also what the ritualist archetype's biggest flaw is: most of what makes ritualist iconic is passive

with engaging gameplay integrated to ritualist, it could easily be one of the most interesting and challenging archetypes to hybrid with

which honestly is a good ritualist identity: interesting and challenging

tho ultimately this depends on what the devs' vision on ritualist is. but at the end of the day it's still one of the most boring archetypes out there rn

[slender aspen]

"In theory it's high risk high reward based on its design; the reality is different. Should've clarified that in original message"

meant 6 messages above your original reply

[twilit summit]

While in actuality acolyte is the safest class due to its high healing (with mythics only L if you are poor just play something else lol)

[wind nova]

aco classism real

[blazing galleon]

crazy how that “insane” 60k dps benchmark I used was for morph overdrive with no tomes as a low point for the archetype and not as a high point, of course you are going to be dealing way more than that with something optimized and if people continue to think that its damage is pitifully low despite having the best AOE and team healing in the game just because other archetypes deal higher single target (and same people who also complain about power creep??) then I have no idea what the fuck to tell you

i honestly can’t win because I don’t think people actually play shaman enough to get a grasp on it and then just complain about it not dealing as much damage as other archetypes and also agree that power creep is bad like what do you want

people who also use abso as a benchmark for its healing are insane and it’s pretty clear that rhusk was talking about the class conceptually and not what it is in practice

fluid healing pretty clearly needs a cap like it used to and I have no idea why they removed it

[lilac yew]

how was the healing on morph overdrive

[blazing galleon]

it was ok

[lilac yew]

heh (it was not ok)

[blazing galleon]

i was still pretty able to competently clear LI and tna with it

[cyan geode]

bro that 60k dps was on my abso not ur morph.

[blazing galleon]

then why bring me up

point still stands, anyways

[lilac yew]

morph odrive has 33% water damage at best

[cyan geode]

I was talking about this, look at some messages below

[lilac yew]

"it was ok"

[blazing galleon]

yeah because I’m decent enough at the class to not need constant healing 🥰

[lilac yew]

crazy how people bring up the "insane healing" as the counterpoint to the low damage of shaman and then when I bring up that healing wasn't in fact ok, suddenly the healing is a negligible factor 🤷

[blazing galleon]

literally why are you bringing up acolyte healing the crux of my entire post was on its damage not healing lol

[cyan geode]

I was using the healing for the aura dmg e

ion care about the heals the damage should not have been that low on a mythic

ETFA btw

[blazing galleon]

I’ve already agreed that the healing nerf was unnecessary and if you’re just gonna bring up random points that weren’t apart of the discussion to somehow “disprove” me then idk why I continue speaking with you

[lilac yew]

bc the initial thesis was "high risk high reward" vs "low risk low reward", the latter being that the damage of shaman is low bc the risk is low (due to "insane healing")

[blazing galleon]

yeah I pretty clearly pointed out it’s different in practice than what it’s supposed to be

[lilac yew]

lmao? me when nipnop is arguing 60k dps is good in wynncraft 2023

[blazing galleon]

i literally don’t care to discuss healing right now. that’s not what my posts were about. it doesn’t involve me or my points. find something better to do

[lilac yew]

ok buddy

[tepid walrus]

holy shit nk

[lilac yew]

hi linny

[blazing galleon]

this person didn’t read my post that 60k was morph overdrive and unoptimized

[lilac yew]

and what's the DPS on optimized shaman? 🤔

(hint: it's far lower than other classes)

[blazing galleon]

i literally still get 150-175k on my hadal build

[lilac yew]

kek, called it

[blazing galleon]

bro is really arguing that 175k damage is bad because etw boltslinger does more

[lilac yew]

175k max damage in wynncraft 2023 damage is bad, yes

something something meta

inb4 "THEY ARE NERFING THE OTHERS!!!" (it's been 2 patches in, both times shaman got nerfed)

[blazing galleon]

whatever you want to call it I don’t really care, in all of our interactions I’ve brought up the point of power creep and you being for it and that other classes don’t decide what another class should be

[terse coyote]

I love men

[lilac yew]

i LOVE men

[blazing galleon]

i really don’t know why I keep discussing this or haven’t blocked you, actual internet warrior with nothing better to do and adds nothing to the conversation

[lilac yew]

i actually check wynncraft discord only a few times a day (i got a job and school 😿 )

you can check my messages and when I send them to verify

[blazing galleon]

crazy how this is how you use your limited free time

[lilac yew]

it's fun

[blazing galleon]

it’s embarrassing

[lilac yew]

ok buddy who thinks 175k dps in current meta is good

[blazing galleon]

ok? lol?

[lilac yew]

look, your argument holds 0 water until the other classes get tuned down (has not happened yet despite patches)

[blazing galleon]

i don’t really care

[lilac yew]

we work with what is currently in the game, which is that shaman is subpar compared to archer, assassin, warrior

not some idealized version in your head

[blazing galleon]

oh wait boltslinger and warrior did get nuked this recent patch but you refuse to acknowledge it

[lilac yew]

omg!!! you mean they are now on par with shaman's current capability?

[blazing galleon]

honestly, it’s getting pretty close yeah

[lilac yew]

(hint: they are not)

[tepid walrus]

its actually not that far off but holy shit reading this is giving me a headache

[blazing galleon]

now you know how I feel

[lilac yew]

you can solve problems by reverting shaman nerfs, linny

[tepid walrus]

orrrrr

i can push to nerf other classes more

[lilac yew]

yes do that

[tepid walrus]

i dont think that shaman nerfs are perfect btw. but. that's okay

[blazing galleon]

nahhhh, I’m just an idiot with an idealized personal vision of how classes should be balanced

[lilac yew]

no you're just an idiot who insists we should act as if your idealized personal vision of how classes should be balanced is the actual current meta (hint: it's not)

in the actual meta, you know, the one that's actually live in the game, shaman is subpar

[blazing galleon]

moron

[lilac yew]

ok buddy

[tepid walrus]

this is the same mindset as "taking anything except anam 7 crafted idol into tna should be illegal"

[blazing galleon]

don’t bother further they refuse to listen

[tepid walrus]

its so silly i dont understand how you have this viewpoint

[lilac yew]

i can only speak for my experience but I have honestly seen people dip from TNA parties when they see unoptimized team mates

[blazing galleon]

ok

[tepid walrus]

shrug

[lilac yew]

now, if this doesn't actually happen, then my bad

but it's happened to me, so

[tepid walrus]

idk even if it does happen its a bit weird to base your debate over shaman being subpar on

[lilac yew]

again this circles back to your perfect idealized version of the game vs what is actually happening in the game

yes, ideally, people should be able to do content without anam+crafted. ideally, the classes have pros and cons, strengths and weaknesses, but overall every one of them are viable.

but that's not what's actually happening in the game, innit

[tepid walrus]

,,,and they are,,,

your vision of what the game is is so incredibly narrow

[lilac yew]

sure, my vision of the game is based on what i've experienced

[blazing galleon]

I’m willing to bet I have more raid experience than you do

[lilac yew]

and my experiences include archers gunning Greg down in a few minutes flat and people leaving parties when they see a shaman has joined

like I said, if I am wrong in that archers (and assassins, now, I guess) can't 100->0 greg down in a couple of shakes or that people don't ditch suboptimal partyfinders, then my bad

[tepid walrus]

i mean. they can. and im sure that also happens

i just dont see why youre considering it as the be all end all of the game's class balancing

surely it isnt any more complicated than just requeueing into tna with your party of 3

in the offchance you get some dumbass elitist

also trickster is way too good rn lmfao

[lilac yew]

because it's content that's not reasonably accessible for a couple of classes. surely it isn't out of the question to ask that content (especially the current endgame content) be doable, within reason, by any class?

not to even mention the fact that this particular piece of content is also currently one of the best money-making methods (exception goes to Silverbull, kek)

[tepid walrus]

you argue that content should be doable within reason when it IS doable within reason, (putting aside the fact that tna boss is a FOUR PLAYER fight, i am sure i could solo greg in morph overdrive with like 30mins of practicing), but then your arguing points are about the competitive dps of shaman opposed to classes with higher dps than shaman

its just strange and why the argument doesn't go anywhere

at least imo
yea, shaman doesn't have as much damage as other classes, but that doesn't really mean something is WRONG WITH THE GAME really. iirc, shaman didn't have as much damage as other classes in 1.20 anyways

and the solution id see to it is not to just give shaman more mults but to balance other classes closer to its standard

[blazing galleon]

shaman comparison to other classes in 1.20 damage was arguably even worse than it is now :)

[tepid walrus]

anyways i. do not have more time for this unfortunately. goodluck

[lilac yew]

the DPS is just what nipnop likes to focus on a lot (as he said, he doesn't care about ~it~ healing)

[blazing galleon]

ok

[weak kraken]

Tbh actually id really appreciate a video of a summoner solo Greg, or atleast from like to 13mil-7mil range. I really don’t understand how to do that boss fight as that archetype

[tepid walrus]

if you remember in like 5-6 days i can record one ig lol

[blazing galleon]

I focus on damage because that’s what you focus on 💀

[weak kraken]

I’ll try to remember in a week, I’ll give you 10 le if u do lol

[tepid walrus]

insane

[blazing galleon]

it’s not that bad

maddening roots destroys greg

[tepid walrus]

ok sure. my only build is hunted the watched so we will see how it goes

[lilac yew]

? we were literally discussing the risk/reward scenario regarding shaman and then you post this exact message:

[blazing galleon]

i was replying to someone else

[lilac yew]

so...how am I the one focusing just on damage when we were having a discussion that included damage and healing? lol

you were the one who dragged the conversation to just damage

[blazing galleon]

i responded to sugo who was talking about damage. you entered the conversation later.

not everything revolves around you

insufferable

[lilac yew]

sugo's first message in this bit of the conversation was how shaman was actually low risk / low reward, heh

even he was considering both damage and healing

you just focused on his message that only included damage

[weak kraken]

For me a nother “huge” reason why shaman feels so bad it because of the “buff” to mobility every other archetype got in 2.0 is much better than frog mask. I think totems “tp” is good but is rough being locked behind acolyte tree

[lilac yew]

here, I found sugo's first message in this bit of the conversation: #1080744268773204029 message

[weak kraken]

Ik shaman is suppose to have bad mobility but it feels really really bad imo

[lilac yew]

it is really really bad

afaik shaman is still the only class that is actively not recommended to lootrun on, for example

[buoyant fog]

I guess a good question to ask is: What should factor into classes most?

Is x class good at anything unique compared to others? Raids, Dungeons, Wars, etc
Is x class outclassed by easier things often? Is healing class worse than other healing class
Is the gameplay enjoyable throughout the game or only some parts? Early vs Mid vs Late

If a class is ONLY okay late-game and terrible the rest of the experience, it's probably not great.

We can't have every archetype and class be perfect the entire playthrough/experience, but do you get excited or you do play a different archetype, and then at the very end scrap that archetype to play a "good" archetype for late-game content?

Also I really dislike the comments on "You just don't know how to play x archetype" if a normal person has go google how to play an archetype to even survive the basic game, it's got some issues.

[terse coyote]

Minecraft gameplay:

[cyan geode]

You just don't know how to play x archetype

[wind nova]

holy SHIT what just happened

anyways please don't revert the double totem nerfs just buff sac shrine base healing and nerf fluid healing to even stuff out

[buoyant fog]

What's the point of "even stuff out"?

[wind nova]

I'm sayin if double totem nerfs were too hard on the healing, just buff sac shrine's healing, not double totem's

or maybe it's fine to just buff double totem healing idk, i just don't want the double totem meta to come back again

and for fluid healing it's for once base healing is buffed, so abso heals don't become too powerful

thus "even stuff out"

[slender aspen]

This too ^

[wind nova]

honestly I'm pretty fine with blood pool drain rate. it's basically the same no matter how many totems you got bc bp drain and aura bp cost scales proportionally

the difference would be how fast you get to blood sorrow (blood sorrow is spammable for double totem) which i think is. fine? double totem heals are weaker anyways so ig it's only fair

[blazing galleon]

i don’t really think base shrine with no multiple totems needs better healing though

[wind nova]

what's that replying to

[blazing galleon]

anyone

[wind nova]

oh

[blazing galleon]

the problem with double totem is really similar to lightbender and riftwalker

there’s very little reason not to take it on acolyte because acolyte in general has sparing abilities and stuff to use AP on and double totem is so accessible

i don’t think that makes double totem inherently bad necessarily

i think its healing nerf was a bit much for how little acolyte has access to

literally just slap like an 80% cap on fluid healing or something

[blazing galleon]

this just feels like some really generic questions and I’m not sure what it’s supposed to propagate ngl

[wind nova]

yeah i made a thread about that actually. i defo agree with you

[blazing galleon]

I also think base blood siphon rate is pretty fine too because of blood rite’s existence

blood rite just makes it so you have to really invest into acolyte instead of just being able to grab shrine on another archetype and instantly have it amazing

[wind nova]

also yep. i said a few things bout that recently

[blazing galleon]

would like a useful capstone red for acolyte that isn’t the horror that is blood sorrow

[buoyant fog]

Remember when they said hybirds would make it harder, but currently not doing hybird kind of makes you worse, because the end abilities aren't really needed

[blazing galleon]

just depends on the archetype really

[wind nova]

i really think aco could use a few more nodes. rn you have too many leftover that there's nowhere to spend on. which is why motl and double totem is so easily picked

[blazing galleon]

like you aren’t really gonna hybrid boltslinger or arcanist or summoner

[wind nova]

yeah a lot of archetypes suffer from that

[buoyant fog]

arcanist can't really do hybirds, half the abilities don't work with it lol

[wind nova]

there's winded arcanist but that's pretty much it

[blazing galleon]

honestly, I think that because arcanist can’t really function with either rift or lightbender, I think there being little reason not to hybrid the two is pretty ok

[wind nova]

arcanist-lightbender is just impossible in general bc of heal

[blazing galleon]

same for bolt and sharp

[wind nova]

except for focus bolt, which i think some people still take?

[blazing galleon]

that’s just… literally not possible lol

you need phantom ray to get focus and phantom ray literally locks out most boltslinger abilities

unless you’re referring to people taking guardian angels with sharpshooter but that’s a bit different

[wind nova]

oh it's the other way around, gotcha

[blazing galleon]

and even then it’s kinda messy because in order to get guardian angels with focus, you need to like grab triple shots which more often than not will delete your focus if you try to melee

[wind nova]

how bout homing arrows

[blazing galleon]

against like anything slightly mid range homing arrows just won’t work for triple shots before you lose focus really

[buoyant fog]

y'all kind of going off-topic of the feedback discussion

[blazing galleon]

oh well

[wind nova]

some nuance is fine, we're talking bout hybrid viability anyways

and how hybrids in different classes feel actually more like a choice than a necessity

[buoyant fog]

Basically: Acolyte needs more nodes, it's too open for hybrid because it just has a ton of extra points at the end.

[wind nova]

yep yep

[buoyant fog]

Do people play Pure Ritualist?

[blazing galleon]

i know some people that do and just from observing, newer players tend to shift towards ritualist because it sounds cool

[sullen path]

I kind of play pure ritualist, I just don't get frog dance and mask of the awakened because they aren't worth it, much better to have cheaper aura and vengful spirit with shocking aura.

I wouldn't say shaman having the lowest dps is a bad thing, because it heavily makes up for it in it's aoe clearing potential which is something no other class can get remotely close to. Shaman regardless of archetype is still meant to be the hardest class in the game, and the thing that made it hard was the fact that it was very effective at aoe but mediocre against single target (in 1.20), and also it had a base defense equivalent to that of paper. I would say summoner is the best single target dps for it right now at the expense of doing significantly less in the aoe department, however it has the 2nd place award for being the most boring archetype, with paladin being the 1st, and the ai is horrible against certain bosses, such as TCC. Acolyte probably would be a good single target dps and good aoe potential archetype if blood sorrow and uproot were not completely worthless, and maybe the whole healing thing in general got revamped a bit, to be more build friendly. Idk just my thoughts.

[weak kraken]

idk i just cant get 100% on board with this take, shaman does have good aoe but now other classes have much more access to the aoe that use to be exclusive to shaman. warrior has things like blood bash and aoe war screaming giving it both high dmg mobility and aoe, archetypes like trapper also give "single target class" massive arena control with traps that buff mana regen massively. Maybe my builds are bad but i cant get summoner to do more dps than acolyte aura spam. imo summoner feels the worst because it gets no buff to mobilty, regeneration feels like it only gets worse as you get 2x or 3x totem and shepard for being a "single target archetype only really "shines" when fighting groups of mobs which the other architypes are better at doing anyways. It feels like there is ZERO actually reason to play summoner besides for the "fun" of it because you play a "summoner" in every game u play. Im one of those people.

[light sparrow]

I like summoner a lot and had a very good build for it till this patch came along and I live with it just fine, thats why more summons with unique gimmicks could make the archetype more interesting-

[weak kraken]

i cant build anything over 60k dmg without mythics

[light sparrow]

best you can do is massive spell dmg crafted builds rn to make summoner useful

thats why I would even consider it a major buff if they just made the archetype usable in its base position right now by reverting all the nerfs they did in the past 2 patches (as in since blizzard festival / corrupted galleons arrival + the assassin revival patch)

And also for ritualist I think it would be cool that instead of a line of water particles that come from rain dance, the totem makes rain clouds appear slowly over enemies and do the damage that way in the 6 second duration that the effect has, kinda like the NoL clouds in a sense.

and for storm dance they could make the aura particles like a white puff particle (just acolytes blood aura but white) to make it look like wind pulling in the enemies

for summoner somewhere in the past I've said like there can be puppets that do other unique things, though I am unsure where in what channel I said them in...

[weak kraken]

how do you fix ritrualist not really having a good "spell cycle"

[light sparrow]

as in (im a bit of a dope)

[weak kraken]

Wut?

[light sparrow]

as in how does ritualist have a bad spell cycle, u mean like how it cant use uproot right-

[weak kraken]

I was asking about ur thoughts not trying to be dumb or rude, I find if play ritualistic I recast totem for spell cycling cause I don’t want to change the mask I’m on. It just ends up feeling weird to me to cast totem every like 2-3 auras

[light sparrow]

ik ik ur not, I just sometimes need more context since I am low IQ easy target- (not actually though)

[weak kraken]

Same

What is meta mythics for shaman anyways I see a lot of people play with olimpic but that looks like for the jump boost and not actually dmg

[light sparrow]

Well I know that theres this #Mask of the Fanatic Node Reworks place tho that also has links to other suggestions to make ritualist cooler

[light sparrow]

for a class that easily tends to get thrown so hard that it breaks 3+ walls in the process at times its understandable why being in the air is safer sometimes

[blazing galleon]

2.0 try not to nuke visibility and frame rate with excessive particles challenge

[light sparrow]

👋 https://tenor.com/view/nip-nop-ava-wynncraft-ironman-btw-gif-25699187

[blazing galleon]

I LOVE ZEBRA FINCH

[light sparrow]

you should own one as a pet one day

....only downside they live up to 2-3 years. (in the wild)

so in captivity its 3-5 years.

[supple fox]

i wonder why

[supple fox]

In case of TNA soloing it is not a matter of dps that much and instead a matter of how hard is to dodge each attack as class. In case of shaman, most of the players have a lot of issues. Personally I've never yet seen shaman soloing greg and I even rarely see shamans surviving boss fight (most of them die on watched)

[sullen path]

I've done plenty tnas where I have been the last one standing and finishing the raid as shaman (used to do it on summoner before the nerfs, but now I am a ritualist person), I wouldn't go out of my way to ask for a full solo any time soon though because it just takes a long time. The only weapons that are easiest to solo shaman with are olympic, abosolution and maybe hadal. Though anything else maybe except for the god rolled lost spirit crafting recipe (gl), isn't that viable.

I'm not against changes to shaman, just it is definently possible to solo tna as shaman. It's just most the time people die as shaman due to playing extremely aggressive to even get a shimmer of damage over their teamates, who cast a spell and automatically do 4x their damage.

[lilac yew]

imo a lot of this "OMG SHAMAN HEALS FOR SO MUCH!!!!" comes from the perspective of allies being healed, and thus completely ignores how much health is drained for blood pool

just nuke ally healing by like 50% and now things won't look so rosy

[sullen path]

might not be the worst idea

[lilac yew]

also this:

"due to playing extremely aggressive to even get a shimmer of damage over their teamates, who cast a spell and automatically do 4x their damage."

is exactly the problem

like, shaman has to work double to do a quarter of the damage

[sullen path]

I guess, but how do you balance something that's so effective against groups, for single target purposes?

[supple fox]

And quadruple to take damage at most to be still alive

[sullen path]

Quite true

[lilac yew]

inb4 nipnop and CT come in with a "but shaman are so tankyyy!!!" (it has the lowest base resist of any class and also probably the worst movement/dodge ability

[sullen path]

technically speaking shaman can be one of the tankiest classes in the game, but here's the catch, it only lasts for 3 seconds

[supple fox]

• in sort of way is 2x slower than other classes

[supple fox]

Abso: being able to outheal the damage taken
Olympic: mobility
Hadal: hmmm idk if damage is the only compensation

[sullen path]

Pretty much on point

[supple fox]

Probably also immolation

[sullen path]

I do think I have seen aftershock used once, but I don't think it would work well for soloing.

[supple fox]

I mean, melee and hybrid builds do have some innate walk speed in them, so maybee...

[sullen path]

I believe they were playing ritualist, so they also had fanatic and coward if things went south.

Might be me, I am kinda fine with shamans damage right now, maybe except summoners nerf, that kinda sucked because it didn't have great aoe to begin with. Mostly what shaman needs are just better upgrades I feel like, most of them are either tradeoffs or downright downgrades in some cases. Idk maybe this will also bring more damage, but I swear to god seeking totem better be crushed somewhere down the line. Another abilitly that may be considered a downgrade is twisted tether since it eats up your blood pool and doesn't give you any back, making single totem builds even more annoying to sustain, and uproot on acolyte receives one questionable upgrade in the entirety of the acolyte tree which isn't that great, unless you count blood sorrow as an upgrade to acolyte.

The reason why summoner was so popular before it got nerfed is almost everything on the tree is an upgrade. If you want to be stingy you could maybe call double / triple totem a sidegrade.

[buoyant fog]

I wonder how Fruma update will deal with Shaman

[supple fox]

oh I know what else shaman needs

whenever you throw a totem it should automatically give you regeneration before it lands

[lilac yew]

universal basic income

oh ok

[slender aspen]

Buff non aco regen tbh

[wind nova]

good thoughts

[cyan geode]

This

Not to mention mask of the lunatic if u wanna deal respectable dmg

[blazing galleon]

literally no one has said shaman is tanky

you are being bitter for the sake of being bitter

grow up lol

[wind nova]

damn i missed a lot of good arguments hol on

[wind nova]

this is defo a based take

[wind nova]

and this is a good response like holy

ig comparing tna to other raids shamans struggle a bit bc tna seems easier when you have a lot of targeted damage and easy mobility: both of which shaman struggles a lot with

like, shaman in tcc and nol is chill af

and sure, it's definitely a good argument that archetypes have weaknesses and will struggle in some content, but is it really a fair argument considering tna rewards are higher in value compared to other raids?

shaman's aoe damage compared to other classes is definitely incredible, but is easily taken for granted for these kinda reasons

i think an option for shamans to shift their power from aoe to more targetted ways (cough summoner and blood sorrow) can make the class a bit more flexible and competitive dps-wise

[slender aspen]

That'd be nice. It doesn't have to do the massive concentrated burst of arch or warrior but some decent single damage would be solid, at least to the extent that you don't have to work way harder than the rest to achieve a fraction of the damage. Especially when you have the lowest armor and the aoe cc options of other classes have been greatly expanded

[wind nova]

exactly. shaman can easily be one of the most glass-cannon-y classes out there. while their amazing aoe control has been their identity for the longest time, it defo didn't age well especially with new content and 2.0

ANYWAYS i think an option for summoners to bring back uproot kb in totems would be great 🙏

[slender aspen]

Really? Idk, i kind of like that uproot doesn't knock back totems anymore

[wind nova]

oh. well i miss it--

it could always be optional 🤷‍♂️ like a 1 ap cost node somewhere

i just think it would add some mechanical pizzazz to the boring archetype that is summoner, tho it's not that big of a change lmao

maybe make it proc totemic smash again on landing so it's actually worth taking, unlike sentient snake pre-damage buff

[blazing galleon]

i think you guys are also way overestimating the difference in damage between shaman and other classes lol

[wind nova]

oof. looks like the stuff i just said has been said already lol

[slender aspen]

Could be, i'm just basing my opinions on what other people are saying. My highest level class is a level 94 shaman so take what I have to say with a grain of salt, i've yet to do most endgame content

[wind nova]

you keep being so based gahdamn

[light sparrow]

So is it just the unanimous agreement that summoner needs to be buffed again so it becomes the very good single target dps option for an AOE class-

[wind nova]

honestly I can't even have a solid opinion about it bc i still dk why they did the nerf to begin with

[blazing galleon]

idk i dont think any of these are new or unpopular opinions

i also dont understand why people are under the impression that twisted tether is a downgrade

i just look at it as free damage basically

[light sparrow]

(I just want to use summoner again and be able to have fun while actually contributing, that’s it ;-;)

[wind nova]

yeah ify man, we gonna wait and see what happens in fruma update

[blazing galleon]

typically one aura will just one shot all trash mobs anyways so you aren't gonna lose any significant amount of blood pool from applying tether to enemies

and so realistically it's basically just an extension of your totem DPS

although one problem i have with it is that it also forces/becomes significantly better when you have multi totems

since it's literally double the amount of tether ticks you're getting from hp siphoning

you can argue that it's a pretty boring ability of which i wouldnt disagree but i will never understand why it's perceived as a downgrade

[light sparrow]

A drone summon that could do debuffs and weak damage for both mobs and bosses, healing summon like the skylaar fight that sticks with Ally’s to heal them overtime so they don’t have to stick to a totem for healing, and maybe a giant tank to that defends players and retaliates

[blazing galleon]

make it summon ava

[light sparrow]

The drone summon could have bird like properties to be in the air

[wind nova]

ngl i like the healing summon idea. it could especially synergize well with motf for some tree mixing goodness

also the tank/aggro summon, tho that could just be added functionality for the effigies

[light sparrow]

I had the thought that shift uprooting a totem while an effigy was in the field would go into the totem and evolve the effigy into some stone golem totem effigy hybrid that tanks damage and creates auras

Though it’s just hypothetical

[blazing galleon]

no please give me portable ava

[wind nova]

they're nice ideas. you seem really passionate about summoner

[light sparrow]

While salted see’s summon as terraria I see it as Nintendos Pikmin

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/aliens/images/3/36/All_Pikmin.png/revision/latest?cb=20190331155340

[wind nova]

what's a pikmin some decision-making is a really good way to make summoner more interesting to play

[light sparrow]

A Nintendo game that relates to controlling little plant creatures with unique abilities

[wind nova]

especially where and how to use your uproot, which is summoner's bread and butter

[light sparrow]

Summoners uproot is like a whistle that blows into the direction to focus

[wind nova]

yesssss. i especially like how you can choose between uprooting your totem or your target

[light sparrow]

I’d say shift uprooting as summoner could change what you can summon from uprooting the totem and what comes out of the totems as well

[wind nova]

and aura is just nice for spell-cycling with its summon buff and mana

[light sparrow]

Since idk how they can make the variety work

[wind nova]

honestly me neither lol

maybe a summon from whenever you take damage, or right as your totem lands

or the first few seconds of your totem (which you can reset with uproot)

[light sparrow]

I know puppets and effigy exists, and my idea with drone summons, healing summons, and tank summons, there can also be summons that do like AOE stun damage / poison damage, etc

[wind nova]

..maybe not too many since summoner ap costs is pretty fine as it is already

[light sparrow]

True,

[wind nova]

but more ideas is always cool

[light sparrow]

I just think with fruma coming they could increase the AP for new abilities

Though they might not to

[blazing galleon]

there will most likely be new abilities with fruma

[light sparrow]

I could give the CT plenty of summon ideas to the point they’d restrain order me or block me- (only for new puppet types)

[wind nova]

honestly i can hardly see it happening bc full tree builds are already pretty fine as they are rn

[blazing galleon]

they like.... kinda said they would

[wind nova]

or maybe they'll add like 1 more page who knows 🤷‍♂️

[light sparrow]

Oh good. I just wonder if they’ll notice it’s unplayable without a massive spell dmg build rn, they likely did by this time but it’s no biggie.

[wind nova]

sounds exciting

[light sparrow]

I mean it’s not THAT hard to make summoner exciting to use new skill ideas wise (like combining Shepard with puppet master and put something better in for it)

Thooough it’s probably easier said than done…..

[wind nova]

honestly yeah...

[blazing galleon]

we will get ava summon in fruma

[tepid walrus]

ava teleport device reference

[blazing galleon]

if you care, i posted my archer thing

[tepid walrus]

ye link?

actually it’s probably on forums lol

[blazing galleon]

it's just in gen suggestions

[tepid walrus]

cool stuff. i’ll look eventually

[cyan geode]

So basically in this case

Shaman isn't tanky
Shaman can't self sustain well
And shaman doesn't have good damage

So all it has going for it is minoe aoe which is outshined by smth like idk, arcanist, trickster, acro and bmonk?

[blazing galleon]

im tired of saying the same shit over and over again and yall just not paying attention or twisting my points

[cyan geode]

No that's my own point about shaman not having anything going for it, I'm just responding to a message you said about shaman not being tanky

It doesn't have mobility either

[cyan geode]

Also I'm REALLY not.

I have compared morph hive weapon dmg in different classes and shaman was performing worse than mage which is a huge feat in itself

[lilac yew]

nipnop's flailing point is that shaman is fine, other classes are overtuned (don't hold your breath expecting this to be fixed, though, lmao)

[cyan geode]

Like considerably worse

[blazing galleon]

me and linny have already discussed this with you like 50 times over

[lilac yew]

yes i was here

[cyan geode]

Well that's an issue,

I don't like how ct chooses to balance classes where they keep fucking up one class and making the other meta for one patch then nerf a diff class and make smth else meta which just feels ugh

[lilac yew]

yeah ik but nipnop always expects us to listen to him but not the other way around

[blazing galleon]

textbook narcissism lol

i dont have the energy for this anymore ngl

[cyan geode]

Bro stop shitting on him he's not even in ct I'm just saying to either keep everything buffed at once or nerf everything at once

[blazing galleon]

they clearly will not change

[lilac yew]

CT won't change its balancing approach as long as they have at least one person supporting them

[blazing galleon]

tbf anything non pure lightbender, mage has pr decent damage now

[cyan geode]

True, so does assassin, warrior and ofc, archer, which kinda makes shaman outshined very hard

[blazing galleon]

meh

[lilac yew]

"shaman is fine" (trust)

[blazing galleon]

(trust that i am solely in the right and that everything ct does is trash)

[cyan geode]

🫃

If other classes dealt same dmg shaman would be fine but eh

[blazing galleon]

what atree were u even using or what archetypes

[cyan geode]

I got 60k with acolyte abso
80k with summoner fanta
Nobody uses ritualist

Tbf I don't even main shaman so who cares lmao, I can just play the other 8 classes I have which are not shaman

[lilac yew]

tbf i know at least one person uses ritualist main

[blazing galleon]

pretty good in my book ngl

its so funny when people compare these balanced builds to some 5 second clip or dummy damage number screenshot they saw once which was fully optimized ETW crafted w/ tomes and think omg this is definitely the entire class

[lilac yew]

crazy how you are often in TNA but have somehow always missed the archers that gun Greg down in a handful of minutes

[blazing galleon]

...ok?

[lilac yew]

yes

[cyan geode]

I mean it's not good for content like tna where you have to mow down 22 mil hp and are expected to use stuff warrior assassin or archer or even mage which gets 100k easily without going full glass

[lilac yew]

so you are incorrect about your insinuation that this is just a one-time, 5-second clip, kek

literally it happens on the regular

[blazing galleon]

im not sure you actually realize the difference between 5 seconds and a handful of minutes 😐

[lilac yew]

i would guess it's a few minutes of difference

[blazing galleon]

yeah its a ... pretty big damage difference

[cyan geode]

My nulli build gets 140k consistent 1 min dps, although crafted
My idol and hero build gets 100k dps consistently
My riftbender gets 70 - 120k dps consistently
My arcanist gets 150k+ dps consistently
My weath even gets 150k+ consistently

I won't make comments on epoch and div cuz they're etw and you can p much guess their dmg

[lilac yew]

5 morbillion

[blazing galleon]

i get this with my hadal lol

[cyan geode]

Consistent? Also crafted?

And which one? I stated a lot of numbers

[blazing galleon]

consistent ye and 1 crafted but u can swap for medeis and its literally 1k aura difference lol

150k

[cyan geode]

Huh

Ehp?

[blazing galleon]

30k

[cyan geode]

With tomes?

[blazing galleon]

the 30k is without tomes

[cyan geode]

Summoner?

[blazing galleon]

nop acolyte w/ mask and double totem

[cyan geode]

Did u test this again after double totem nerfs?

[blazing galleon]

ye

[cyan geode]

Huh, if this was consisten ig I was wrong then

[blazing galleon]

was even stronger before and you could get higher numbers if you used ETW (i use EWF) but thats not really tna viable

[cyan geode]

Then it's only a mobility and ehp issue ig

[blazing galleon]

anamnesis with aco and 30k ehp is more than enough for me

[cyan geode]

Resu?

[blazing galleon]

nop crabbies

[cyan geode]

Ah very based

Crabs go hard with water mythics, can u dm me the build

[blazing galleon]

shore

i mean ill just post it here because it isnt really special and i have nothing to hide https://hppeng-wynn.github.io/builder?v=2#8_01dCR-1969F9F976+6+9d910r50QW0t80t80K40BR0Qd1G0X221u0E1g00001004fI0z0z0+0+0+0+0-j-xV+3T1

could obv improve w/ more crafteds but i dont care enough

[cyan geode]

Oh yeah I can see why I had low dps now

[blazing galleon]

even with morph overdrive no tomes i can get a pretty solid 60k dps with the same ability tree in current patch

and i think thats fine shaman doesnt need to be the single target class

[cyan geode]

Eh the content is still rn focused towards classes that are single target but that's a different issue not an item team issue

[blazing galleon]

people not realizing that a "couple of minutes" in between 4 people is like 100k or so dps per person is funny

[lilac yew]

oh i've seen this build before

used it a few times and got nuked by Watched (i love haul)

[blazing galleon]

just... haul when it targets you...

[lilac yew]

uhh yea sure i'll do that

[blazing galleon]

ok

[lilac yew]

lol

[supple fox]

My triple totem damage aura on hybrid fantasia was like 16k xd

[wind nova]

me when numbers/crafted mention: 🥱😴

anyways buff flaming tongue and blood sorrow

[blazing galleon]

i found the problem: you are measuring summoner aura damage

[supple fox]

Single target dps peaked like on 85k with curse xD

[light sparrow]

Puppet effigy dmg has more dmg priority over the auras itself where they just act as side dmg + the dps speed boost (and…. Mana sharing to other players but when’s that actually helpful)

[sullen path]

Replying to my own thing because I am kinda stupid sometimes. Twisted tether is not a downgrade, it's more a tradeoff which tends to be an upgrade, I just suck, k thanks for listening to my ted talk.

[supple fox]

I feel like acolyte needs whole tree rearrangement

[sullen path]

Probably, I did just do a run of tna with blood sorrow, and single totem and all I can say is it is not at all worth using blood sorrow. Maybe it's better on double totem or panic zealot, but full acolyte doesn't really work well, flaming tongue wasn't too bad which suprised me, not spectacular but it was better than wasting 70% on blood sorrow. However it would have been faster and safer for me to just do it as ritualist or acolyte-ritualist.

Blood sorrow just doesn't really work well with acolyte, and often forces you outside of your totems range which isn't great and additionally makes you lose damage since flame tongue and aura do more together. Basically it needs a redesign. The whole thing I said about Twisted Tether being a downgrade probably came from the fact that using it makes it far harder to reach blood sorrows 70% requirement.

[supple fox]

Forcing you outside of totem range is general issue now, I think

As a summoner, I tend to go a lot outside of totem range because recast time is not worth it

[blazing galleon]

just either rework blood sorrow from the ground up or at least like double its damage

[jovial abyss]

double damage blood sorrow is still worse then having mask of the lunatic

revamp the latter half of the acoyte tree pls. Sorrow is an abitily thats only ever going to be useless or overpowered; theres no way to make it better then aura heals without having it break the game.

then theres useless tether, which is barely noticeable when playing; its damage could be quintupled and it would still be an underwhelming source of damage. Plus its just poison + thorns; thats pretty boring

[twilit summit]

What about making it not completely block you from using all other spells (insane idea, i know)

[blazing galleon]

i unno just something

[supple fox]

Just get rid of aura healing and make blood pool only for damage

Honestly it would be better if rebound was accessible before having access to sacrificial shrine to be able to reduce base aura healing and make also ways to gain blood pool and/or healing from other sources

Idk, by maybe reworking/buffing blood moon to scale off something else than soul point regen

Or giving something that can generate blood from mobs

[twilit summit]

Tbh blood moon is actually good because it gives a use to an otherwise useless id

[blazing galleon]

Except it’s on a filler stat that gives a pointless stat for a healer archetype

[supple fox]

But it still has a little impact and there's not a lot of items that give it

[tepid walrus]

idk my spr immolation spellsteal aco build is about to go hard

[supple fox]

no way

😱

[tepid walrus]

ok this sucks

[sullen path]

Life steal / mana steal is pretty bad on acolyte since each beam only gives one fifth of it to you, on top of attack speed multipliers (to prevent power creep ofc). Not to mention each beam is drastically spaced out. So blood moon is kind of meh. (Probably better with distant grasp)

[tepid walrus]

yeah i took distant grasp

the build was just hot trash in general lol

and i wasnt about to whip out the crafted sp armor

[blazing galleon]

did you or any other ims ever take a look btw

[tepid walrus]

ive been really busy so no

idk about other ims, you could tell them if you want

[wind nova]

shamen

[weak kraken]

Linny I forgot for a bit, did you ever get around to solo Greg with summoner? No worries if not, I still just have no clue how to play the class

[twilit summit]

uproot gun propably easier

[tepid walrus]

noper

been busy irl

it would just be a very long solo i think

[twilit summit]

ct try to not balance acolytea round absolution challenge

[supple fox]

ong

so true

[terse coyote]

erm... Blood sorrow is balanced around Brimstone+Spoon Bender... 🤓... just use death certificate to pick up ipecac if you think it's not enough damage....

[supple fox]

You meant sacred heart instead of spoon bender, right?

[terse coyote]

no it's based off spoon bender brimstone 💔

[twilit summit]

erm . . . blood sorrow does not exist for most players because it still locks you out of doing anything else

[terse coyote]

not everyone gets brimstone from the devil deal

if you struggle keeping your devil chance, items like glitched crown or chaos can add devil deal items to the pools of other areas

Alternatively if you have red key there's a chance of Brimstone appearing in the super secret room

If you get particularly unlucky yet simultaneously lucky, there's also Lil Brim

Lil Brim will fire a smaller brimstone laser on a charge, and cannot synergize with your tear effecys

However, baby spoon will allow you to apply the homing spoon bender effect to your familiars

If trading heart containers for items isn't your style, there's always Revelation, which will give you a similar effect colloquially known as Holy Brim, as well as flight

If you've beaten The Beast as tainted azazel, Azael's Rage is a similar devil deal item that procs a powerful brimstone laser after a certain amount of room completions

Finally, if youve defeated Mega Sainted as every normal character you unlock Mega Blast, which allows you to fire a brutal, colossal brimstone laser for 15 seconds, with a 12 room recharge

If you have a 48 hour energy pill this can efficiently and effectively charge Mega Blast

If you're a coward, you can play Azazel, who starts with a limited range, skinnier brimstone

[tepid walrus]

devour

[terse coyote]

Isaac's Fork or Lacryphagia or what

What item/trinket are we discussing

[supple fox]

tick

[terse coyote]

I got marbles and mom's box

eating the tick 💔

[light sparrow]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-trinkets-i-love-giving-trinkets-to-friends-and-family-trinket-gif-26165716

[elfin glacier]

hello
i am here to say that shaman has kinda low damage??

[twilit summit]

Summoner specifically

[elfin glacier]

exactly

i was getting like
70k dps with HADAL
damn thats lower than prebuff acrobat :gorgeous:

and thats with me spamming aura-aura-uproot with minions up so i have 100% buff uptime on minions

[supple fox]

Shaman got indirectly buffed because crafted nerfs

Watch it getting nerfed next patch

[elfin glacier]

🦣

I haven't seen any info about the latest patch
does it have a forums post or sth

[light sparrow]

I can vouch that because I have to used a crafted hadal build with summoner

Even reverting the nerfs from the 2.0.2 patch will be enough of a buff for it.

But keep invirogative waves mana buff and make the speed timer longer dps wise puppets

[elfin glacier]

the dps just feels weak

and pathetic
for a single target dps archetype of the glassiest class out of all 5

like come on I get more with bashscream on warrior

and I'm not even using a mythic nor a crafted there

[blazing galleon]

bash scream is some of the highest possible dps in game rn lol

[elfin glacier]

oh wait fr

ok then
uhh lemme come up with a better comparison

I get more dps on lament riftbender than hadal summoner 🗿

[blazing galleon]

riftbender having zero aoe whatsoever:

i think that some of the summoner nerfs def can be reverted but it’s still decently powerful as while it’s the “single target” archetype of shaman it still has innate natural aoe and healing (and acolyte is still strong) however if I dare consider insinuating that shaman is a good class this discord will mald harder than a 7 year old at band practice so I will drop it before one of them arrives

[elfin glacier]

hey at least riftbender has better health sustain so you can slowly shred everything to smithereens
but shaman is paper

[blazing galleon]

consider dodging

[elfin glacier]

the fact that I pointed out shaman is like paper does not mean I do not dodge
unless I do like statue cancelstack pzealot then that's another story

summoner just feels underwhelming when all of it goes to singletarget dps minions
and that dps is miniscule

even with the aid of a high damage mythic

[blazing galleon]

i do not think anyone has ever disagreed with that

[elfin glacier]

fr

[supple fox]

Honestly sometimes it's just absolutely not worth staying near your totem any longer

[elfin glacier]

mhm
personally my start for virus doctor is throw 3 totems at the middle and aura him in
and keep slapping him and his minions with uproot and aura

if you use storm dance aura you actively make your totem miserable to be in ngl

[lilac yew]

i have arrive

[terse coyote]

I disagree,!!!!!!!!!

[elfin glacier]

waddafaAA

show high summoner dps fr

[cyan geode]

builds etw full crafted hadal

boom look at that! this has high dps so we must nerf summoner further

[supple fox]

Crafteds got nerfed and shaman didn't used them

So we indirectly buffed it

Therefore it has to be nerfed

[hard heath]

so true

[elfin glacier]

moyai

[twilit summit]

Double summoner dps and its still bad

[sullen path]

Kind of in reply to myself really. Well I found a single use for seeking totem, and that use is mob grinding (ingredients and items mostly). So now I am going to say it should be optional, because it still sucks in regular combat. K bye.

[supple fox]

pvp seeking totem toxo

https://tenor.com/view/wynn-wynncraft-wackolo-seeking-totem-no-morph-gif-26471056

[weak kraken]

How is it better than aura mask

Imo seeking totem should be moved to the final mode of summoner

[sullen path]

As said above toxoplasmosis. It moves itself around and kills things for you. Outside of that it's worthless.

[elfin glacier]

seeking totem is basically negative if youre trying to escape enemies
why

[weak kraken]

Oh my only thought it would turn totem to also “feel” like another summon. And in my head it would give summoner more “uptime” on having a “horde of summons” and it gives summoner now a “heal summon”. Not sure if any of that makes sense but ur right it’s lame for mobility

[elfin glacier]

Totem does not come with heals. You either take blood pool or regeneration, in which regeneration is not necessary for progressing down the tree.
Also totem dps is negligible.

[terse coyote]

Swap to Coward if you're escaping enemies goofball

[supple fox]

also buff base totem radius

[weak kraken]

Ya my idea was on the assumption you take regeneration

[twilit summit]

Flying better

[lilac yew]

i'm just so glad that the CT did positive tweaks on shaman during this latest patch, like so many people were expecting them to

[supple fox]

Huh?

Shaman got buffed? No way

Eh, I saw nothing, tho archer nerf is nice

[lilac yew]

(sarcasm..)

[supple fox]

Yeah...

But they still nerfed archer by fixing the angels

[twilit summit]

Not the final node but it really fits with summoner

And maybe give ritualist something useful instead

[supple fox]

Mask of the awakened is fine...-ish

If not the seeking totem I guess

[twilit summit]

But not good

Compared to the other stuff

[slender aspen]

Ritualist is more enjoyable without awakened imo

[weak kraken]

Honestly agree, sadly seeking totem ruins awakening mask for me

[slender aspen]

Tbh i think ritualist would be better off with a final node that just increaes the buffs each mask provides. Call it "enhanced carvings" or something. Awakened kind of goes against the entire playstyle of mask swapping for diff situations you adapt to as you go through a playthrough and unlock more nodes and overall just makes the archetype more gimmicky. Spam a skill a bunch to get awakened, then abuse all the buffs you get. Idk. Maybe that's just a personal preference thing, but mota feels more lame after you get used to a build without it. I like the idea of rewarding skilled usage of the mask mechanic more

[tepid walrus]

agree

[weak kraken]

Has ct/balance team had any good ideas on “fixing” shaman? It seems like the only thing I’ve heard them say is they acknowledge shaman is in a weird/bad spot rn

[tepid walrus]

truthfully i and i think some other ims have not been that involved in at stuff recently and do not know where it’s at

but i don’t think lack of ideas is the issue really

[weak kraken]

What is the “bottle neck” for this stuff? Is it just hard to get everyone together to talk about it?

[tepid walrus]

dev time

[wind nova]

I had a ritualist node idea that increases a mask's stat buffs and nerfs the longer you wear it, which would go well with mota bc it won't have the nerfs. (it's named depersonalization cuz i got rid of the original one in my shaman rework idea cough)

[wind nova]

YES oh my god. it would make moving totems around less of a hassle for summoners bc you won't have to recast it all the time. it can trigger to whipped enemies or smth so you can control when it happens

i mean, idk how summoner mains would like seeking totem considering how weird and silly it is, but it's something 🤷‍♂️

[hard heath]

Optional node
wowowowow

[wind nova]

yeah lol it's best to just make it optional

[supple fox]

^

it will be also an indirect buff to mask of the awakened

but also still seeking totem could be just better (like for example make totem ticks happen 33% more often)

[wind nova]

that'll mess with furious effigy but yeah, seeking totem could do with some more spice

[supple fox]

it could just stack with it

[wind nova]

yeah that's a better idea

oh wait i misunderstood lol

[supple fox]

like normal furious effigy totem tick is 4 ticks and with seeking totem it could be 3

[wind nova]

naw like, i meant since you can only go as low as 0.05s since 20 ticks in 1s

and decimals and yada yada something something

[supple fox]

it will be 33% faster still

from 8 ticks to 6 and 4 to 3

mainly to empower your regeneration so you can be tankier this way

[wind nova]

yeah i was thinking regen buffs for motf too

but i wouldn't mind totem ignoring motf's damage reduction. the same way bamboozle ignore echo's

[wind nova]

ah

yeah that works

tho wouldn't that be 25% faster or am i bad at math

[supple fox]

8 tick delay between regenaration and totem damage = it triggers 2.5 times per second

6 tick delay = 3.33 times per second

[wind nova]

ah. it appears i am, indeed, bad at math

[slender aspen]

100%, seeking totem should be replaced by a node that just boosts totem regen in motf i think

[wind nova]

faster totem works really well cuz it increases regen healing without requiring the regen node, which keeps it as an optional node

it's a really smart idea

[supple fox]

naah because regen wouldn't be optional for ritualist

and faster totem tick is kinda universal (because faster blood pool charge too)

[lilac yew]

they already said they're not spending dev time on shaman so

all these nice ideas are kind of moot

[wind nova]

you don't have to share any ideas if you don't want to

but other people do

[twilit summit]

just give shaman totem storm (arrow storm but is throws totems)