2.0.2 Constructive Feedback Megathread

[plain canopy]

i had to turn off the resource pack on my old bad laptop just to play the boss fight, not a fun experience

[fringe perch]

orphion is such a shitty boss

[wheat swallow]

Honestly, I like the chaos

[dusk scroll]

chaos is fine, lag is not

[wheat swallow]

Shitty unfair laggy sure

But when it doesn't lag its fun(once every green moon)

[ember holly]

Then kill your teammates

Eat them alive so you can savor their last moments of struggle before the darkness envelopes them

do it with such brutality blood stains every wall and floor

TNA is meant to rely on cooperation

If your teammates can't effectively communicate you're on a sinking ship

[dusk scroll]

yet the boss fight is easier done solo than in a group

[ember holly]

And that's their problem

[ember holly]

How so?

[dusk scroll]

greg being extremely unpredictable with agro when multiple people damage him

i love it when greg does a 180 no scope charge spam onto me after losing agro on someone else

[ember holly]

That sounds like hardly enough reason to give up triple your dps

And that's how every mob works, I feel like that argument could equally be made for Orphion or The Colossus or Grootslangs

[dusk scroll]

i'd gladly give up triple dps if it means that i can comfortably kite greg and be able to predict his attacks

[ember holly]

I suppose we'll have to make future raid bosses too challenging to be done alone

[dusk scroll]

i mean greg has been beaten naked with just a weapon and tomes so 🤷‍♂️

[ember holly]

Nameless was built around mostly 1.20 stuff

You wouldn't have been able to do anything close to that in 1.20

[dusk scroll]

yeah 2.0 powercreep is insane, im sure that naked archer with tomes did about as much dmg as a proper freedom build in 1.20 would do

[lament shale]

Blame archer

[dusk scroll]

it has also been done on mage but with accesories

[lament shale]

Blame mage

[tame comet]

So what should be changed? TNA and a lot of the rest of endgame or the ability trees?

[dusk scroll]

and im sure the other 3 classes are also capable of doing it if the right person attempts it

[lament shale]

Blame the fact that class mobility is insane

It would literally not be possible on shaman

[dusk scroll]

so just blame 2.0 power creep as a whole, not individual classes

[lament shale]

Escape and teleport barely got touched

[untold cloak]

blame the fact that only dps is important in tna

[lament shale]

It would physically be impossible with haul as your movement spell

[untold cloak]

shaman and mage are very good support but you dont need heals in the current meta

[lament shale]

I don’t know why you guys are blaming power creep or class roles, such movement spells have pretty much always been free total disengages from enemies

[dusk scroll]

mage dps is also good dont be fooled by all the meta slaves

[tame comet]

not good in TNA = not good 😢

[lament shale]

Like I’m sorry but personally I don’t find the tna naked solos very impressive it’s more just a test of endurance than mechanics

[dusk scroll]

you're not wrong there

[lament shale]

Noooo shaman is not good in this very specialized form of content 😭

[untold cloak]

the problem is that tna is the only challenging endgame content currently

[lament shale]

Shaman is clearly TRASH

[dusk scroll]

yeah everything else can be washed away with morph the nothing easily

including tcc

[lament shale]

I’ve brought up these same issues when nol was released and people just didn’t care/ wanted to keep their innate mobility but man is it dumb

[dusk scroll]

the suden realisation that unboosted 2.0 morph the nothing dps = 1.20 singu tstack with stonewalker 1 2 and 3 dps

[lament shale]

It would physically be impossible on shaman because I don’t think you have the mana sustain naked for infinite totem flight and at a medium distance from the boss (how shaman normally plays) you literally don’t have enough time to cast both totem and blood connection into the air to fully evade a charge from the boss

You’ll always take at least some damage (which is death sentence for naked)

I guess maybe you could abuse walk speed tomes with something like olympic but it would take actual hours

Not really worth tbh

[dusk scroll]

well the archer naked solo took 1 hour 15 minutes so i dont even want to imagine the shaman naked solo

assuming its possible

[lament shale]

How long before you fall asleep

[dusk scroll]

just have 2 people take shifts

[dusky widget]

fire take

[lament shale]

Honestly, I’m fine with tna being very movement heavy and in the ideal world where there are multiple endgame raids available, it would give it its own niche and identity

Of course the problem is that tna is the main and only endgame raid right now

[dusk scroll]

im generaly fine with it cuz walk speed is much more fun playstyle than heavy ehp face tanking

[lament shale]

But eventually the argument becomes “add more content!!!” Which helps literally no one

[lament shale]

That’s funny, since most of the ways that people suggest wynn raids to become more like “traditional” mmos that literally force the need for tanks and healers, usually boil down to this type of gameplay

[fringe perch]

wait so if the nameless was built around 1.20 damage values and such did no one think that giving literally every archetype a shit ton more dps than was normal before a bad idea?

[dusky widget]

🧀

[dusk scroll]

yeah but i cant see wynn going to the traditional mmo raid/dungeon system ever

[lament shale]

I am pretty sure they meant mechanically less so balance

Also beta 2.0 had absolutely shit damage on release lol

I do not blame ct at all for being unable to beat tna

[dusk scroll]

wdym shit damage? didnt mage literaly do 1mill dps or more

[tame comet]

the nameless and the ability tree were designed at the same time by different people. (I guess you can tell where problems can arise there)

[dusk scroll]

before they nerfed breathless 10 times and killed ambivalence

[fringe perch]

also will other pieces of content be scaled up power wise so its in more in line with current dps standards?

[lament shale]

Mage released much much later than warrior and archer (which was what beta started with)

[dusk scroll]

ah yeah fair

[dusky widget]

int didnt reduce mana whatsoever on 2.0 beta release. it was borderline unplayable

[lament shale]

^ it was fucking horrible

[dusk scroll]

yeah i only played beta when mage droped cuz idc about other classes

[lament shale]

The only way people actually beat tna was with escape artist spam

[fringe perch]

guardian angel ambivalence was like S tier wasnt it

[dusky widget]

shows how testers had about 1 to 2 cps lol

[fringe perch]

this though everything including tna feels it goes by way too fast

[tame comet]

Maybe, but I think the easier approach would be to scale down the ability tree, easier said than done though.

[lament shale]

It’s not like a mob hp buff isn’t coming either

[fringe perch]

how much hp do you guys think would be fair for GREGGORY

[lament shale]

I think excluding the absolutely minmaxed shit people are doing with assassin, it’s actually quite bloated rn

[tame comet]

a flat stat buff to all mobs won't fix things imo.

[dusk scroll]

i wish for all dps to go around mage level right now, maybe even slightly under mage level

[lament shale]

Never said it would, just bringing attention to it

[fringe perch]

what about asn needs changing in your opinions

[lament shale]

I don’t know I don’t play it all I know is I see funny damage numbers

[fringe perch]

trick? shade? acro?

[dusk scroll]

just make it so a second clone cant hit the same target

[tame comet]

Yeah, but I think some in the CT think that it will make things better when I am pretty sure it won't.

[lament shale]

I’ll leave that to the assassin mains

[dusk scroll]

i dont play assasin either but i think thats the main issue

[tame comet]

The insane dps isn't really the biggest problem with the ability tree.

[dusk scroll]

• it will make assasin obsolete in wars and i would love nothing more than that to happen

[fringe perch]

as an assassin main (admittedly i suck) BUT trickster thing that marqn said seems fair acros sustain from weightless maybe nerfed to .5 from .7 and shade just needs more damage and mobility

[tame comet]

it's still a problem yes, but I wouldn't say it is the biggest.

[fringe perch]

also weathered major id

[lament shale]

I think we should nerf everything to 1.20 WFA guardian dps

Who agrees

[fringe perch]

i think weathered should reduce or just remove vanish considering its current major id is a very big yikes

[dusky widget]

i disagree with the weightless change

i think it’s very fine as is and encourages staying in the air. it never made the class too good at all, in fact i think it’s very well balanced currently

[fringe perch]

weightless kind of removes the need to build for sustain for trickster and especially acrobat

[dusky widget]

ok the trickster thing i agree with, it’s kinda stupid

[fringe perch]

i personally dont think i should be able to chill with 20 mr on acro and especially not fucking trickster

[warm zephyr]

wait what was the weightless change

[dusky widget]

nothing

[warm zephyr]

oh ok i was like how havent i heard about this

[dusky widget]

just what they suggested

[lament shale]

Shut up autothan

Do not monkey bath me

[warm zephyr]

tbh it should either just be acro locked or much worse

[dusky widget]

ok but you cant

[fringe perch]

acro locked seems fair

[dusky widget]

unless your cps is like 3

[warm zephyr]

trickster having weightless just seems like a massive oversight lmao

[fringe perch]

ive done it with cataclysm and nirvana can do it with like 10 mr

[dusky widget]

acro locked seems fsir

[dusky widget]

ok but you also cannot do any other spells then

at a decent rate anyways

[fringe perch]

spin spin multi bomb

[dusky widget]

ok cool nice cycle but the rate at which you cast spells also matters

[warm zephyr]

less on acro

[dusky widget]

really? i dotn find that to be the case

[warm zephyr]

unless this is talking about tricksterin which case ur right

[fringe perch]

also please fix shade its still mid as fuck

[waxen patrol]

Imagine if shrapnel bomb was a spiral instead of straight lines

[warm zephyr]

i mean on acro it SOMEwhat matters but not nearly to the extent of other archetypes

pretty sure neither lacerate nor multi stack unless you're using trift

maybe i am incorrect

[dusky widget]

they dont, i find my dps increased a lot when i spam spells more

[waxen patrol]

You are so wrong linny... (idk lol(

[dusky widget]

there is less downtime between the spells doing damage if youre quick to recast them

[warm zephyr]

ok yea this is true

[dusky widget]

spamming lacerate between spells also allowd you to position yourself better, which matters a lot

[warm zephyr]

it matters less for greg imo as long as youre able to stay above him

[fringe perch]

buff knife to 75 percent extra damage and change its cast to shift spin its unesseceraily annoying to cast

[warm zephyr]

for any content where the mob can actually hit you its different teehee

[dusky widget]

for the most part yeah. only real thing to worry about with him is landing all 3 smoke bombs if u have sticky bomb

[warm zephyr]

ya

still not the hugest issue because the bomb if it misses will probably end up right under greg anyways

[dusky widget]

mhm

[fiery portal]

all imma say about this is i want nightcloak acrobat to be a thing

[dusky widget]

thatd be cool

[warm zephyr]

the positioning just doesnt work for it though ngl

[fringe perch]

can weathered major id remove cd please

[fiery portal]

if only vanish isn't so ass on acro

[dusky widget]

sadly shade is too much ap to get into at the start because of Vanish and you cant use backstab on acro

[warm zephyr]

y eah

[fringe perch]

how are you a roving assassin if your existence is hindred by vanish cd

[warm zephyr]

rove harder

[fringe perch]

im going to spray you with pesticide

[strong lantern]

You are just insanely wrong. Escape and bomb arrow are all you need both are 1.20

[warm zephyr]

idk i dont really care that much about the acro major id lol

[fiery portal]

what if roving assassin is reworked to be an acro-shadestepper hybrid major id 🤯🤯

[warm zephyr]

that is incredibly limiting

[fringe perch]

or just remove vanish cd for weathered

[warm zephyr]

assassin players desperately trying to go back to 1.20

[fiery portal]

i mean it could just be like "you can cast one spell without leaving vanish" or smth

[dusky widget]

acro major id?

[fringe perch]

that would be nice too

[warm zephyr]

weathered, im multitaskign adn it is not working

[fiery portal]

but honestly nightcloak is still so hard to get for acro so imma just lie down and be sad about it

[dusky widget]

ohh

[fringe perch]

when shade is objectively worse than 1.20 asn without really any reason to be such yeah its a fucking annoyance also i know vanish was like op and all in 1.20 but the mythic literally designed around vanish should get SOME kind of treatment

like YES i am so excited to play my favorite mythic weathered then never use its major id

[warm zephyr]

it is not objectively worse lol

[dusky widget]

^

[warm zephyr]

also yea sure but have you considered the item team needs to like... make new items

[dusky widget]

i think a lot of people forget that 100k dps with spell in 1.20 was considered a very large amount of damage

[warm zephyr]

i couldnt really give too much of a fuck about weath major id right now but its not like it wont ever be changed

[fringe perch]

i guess thats fair i am putting weathereds current dps against other archetypes which actually need fixing

[warm zephyr]

shrug

i wouldnt be surprised if shadestepper gets more changes not involving new abilities and such

[fringe perch]

is there any word on a dissolution buff?

[warm zephyr]

but also i have become too busy irl to work on ingredient and do literally anything else related to wynn

[fringe perch]

you have to admit .5 seconds of resistance is uh 💀

[warm zephyr]

so i have no clue whats going on tee hee

[lament shale]

introducing new end tier shadestepper ability to help it mechanically: facestab

[fiery portal]

dissolution needs to not cost 2 ap for shadestepper

[warm zephyr]

disso should be 1ap

[fiery portal]

it's blocked by another node, tricksters can get it easier

[fringe perch]

also slightly more resistance ideally

[warm zephyr]

i still hold the opinion its really useful tho

whats resist at atm

[fiery portal]

which is weird bc it's a shade node

[dusky widget]

is it 2?

[fringe perch]

40 pecrcent resistance is definetly major but wtf is that duration 💀

[warm zephyr]

uhhh yea honestly even 70 would probably be fine

[warm zephyr]

someone said it was lol

[dusky widget]

i am fairly certain its 1

[warm zephyr]

funny anti stunlock node!

[fringe perch]

yes someone look at the ap its very clearly one

[fiery portal]

if it's supposed to make vanish an iframe the resistance should at least be higher than what it is now

[warm zephyr]

me too : )

[dusky widget]

:)))!!!

[warm zephyr]

ya i think i wanted it to be higher when it was getting made

[fringe perch]

i know this has been said to death but please change this things cast

[fiery portal]

idk how impactful 40% is but it feels low 🤷‍♂️

[dusky widget]

does that ability still eat every single mark even if it goes past 10?

[warm zephyr]

eh its not enough for how niche the ability is imo

[fringe perch]

no

[warm zephyr]

i dont think so

[dusky widget]

based

[warm zephyr]

it also. draws from the mobs equally

[fiery portal]

lol yeah true

[fiery portal]

I'm personally fine with it bc your other option for exiting vanish as shade is backstab

[fringe perch]

i just think shift spin is better for it

[dusky widget]

basically please do not nerf weightless!!! it is fine as is thank you

[fringe perch]

unless that cast was specifically made for a slower cast on the knife

[fiery portal]

yeah it could be nice

it does cost a vanish rn which puts you in an awkward position if you don't kill something quickly

[fringe perch]

is archer getting another nerf btw and is homing gonna get changed

[dusky widget]

another nerf?

[fringe perch]

archer still feels overtuned to me but 🤷‍♂️

[dusky widget]

there comes a point where overnerfing becomes too potent and then things like assassin become the best class and get nerfed as a result!!!

do not overnerf… save assassin… except trickster that can get nerfed

[fringe perch]

then nerf it all kekw

nerf trickster nerf frenzy

[warm zephyr]

tbh trickster has needed a nerf . always

[dusky widget]

yeah its damage is way too high

[warm zephyr]

its not really a cata issue either

[lament shale]

mfw good old non mythic spell shaman dps was around 25k-30k if the mob was near your totem

[warm zephyr]

ye

[fiery portal]

frenzy needs to get split into 2 nodes

[warm zephyr]

players melting down screaming when their beloved archetype gets only 100k dps with nonmythic builds

ah yes

i think that frenzy should initially require way too many arrows to feasibly cap out the bonus and then lower that requirement at some point later down the tree

arguably the lowering wouldnt be required with hurricane. hmm . maybe make it decay slower or some shit as well as just. not being as large of a value

it feels extremely silly to be able to easily solo endgame bosses with an oak wood bow and two armor pieces

[plain canopy]

the ability tree in general has instances where it feels like it needs a build up later down the line

[lament shale]

I have . something . for archer . that I will post soon

[plain canopy]

and not "yeah here's the full power immediately"

[fiery portal]

put it behind all-seeing panoptes

[warm zephyr]

yea im looking forward to archer rework idea

[lament shale]

it’s not something I really anticipate to actually affect archer more just something I wanted to make for myself

[warm zephyr]

ye

[sonic ether]

boltslinger doesnt need a rework id say

aside from possibly making guardian angels worth having

or at least endgame (level 105)

[fringe perch]

just nerf frenzy to the ground

[inner elk]

Something something blanket nerf damage creep
Also high mobility is fine because it's cool and spastic (which is what modern players enjoy) but the boss should be able to interact with flying players so you can't just cheese every fight

[fiery portal]

how bout denial of freedom

[lament shale]

i sure love how archer with one spell cast can avoid any and all threats (except it's cool and so we should just design every boss to somehow be able to counter it

[tame comet]

Escape is just fundamentally op

[dusky widget]

it is

[inner elk]

Allow players to have fun mobility perks
Avoid designing bosses around these features
Pick one lmao, unless you're proposing that mobility playstyles should be removed from the game? That would go over well with roughly nobody

[lament shale]

that is a very extreme assumption

[inner elk]

Escape is problematic, how else to deal with it?

[lament shale]

what do u think

[inner elk]

? no clue what you're on about, buff bosses or nerf mobility, but how do you think players would respond to having their core playstyle gutted?

[lament shale]

this is quite literally the same argument as "players who enjoyed 1 million warrior dps builds will be sad if you nerf it"

[inner elk]

numbers vs nature of gameplay, not remotely the same lol

[lament shale]

similar outcomes

[inner elk]

still no, because it's a difference between changing boss numbers and mechanics

when you do more damage and the boss has more hp it's just damage creep, this introduces 0 value

when you have cool mechanics and the boss has more mechanics that you have to respond to the fight becomes fundamentally more interesting

[lament shale]

similar unbalance

consider how "just make bosses more mobile too" would affect classes other than archer

[inner elk]

why would a boss that can respond to mobility make mobility unbalanced

[inner elk]

also I'm talking about mobility in general not just archer, e.g. acrobat/bmonk can also helicopter TNA with 0 damage taken

[lunar token]

Just gonna throw summoner out here, I leave now-

[lament shale]

nope shaman does not exist apparently

considering that certain archetypes/classes altogether can trivialize the majority of concurrent bosses and nearly all mob spells, it's pretty safe to say that keeping them as mobile is fundamentally limiting on what you can do and have to do to make any form of challenging content

[inner elk]

this is fair, but in what way would you deal with their mobility? just halve the number of blocks escape propels you?

[lament shale]

i never said it would be easy tbf

i dont really have any solutions either and its not really something i care to think about because i know that mobility will probably never get changed anyways so shrug

[dusky widget]

its possible to lower the speed of it though right? that could be a good place to start

[inner elk]

based

[lament shale]

just throwing out my opinion that i do think its harmful

i made a thread on the forums on a way that i think would fix whirlwind strike but for stuff like acrobat/escape/teleport i feel its a bit more complicated

[lament shale]

cooldown on use possibly, or slow you down when you land

[dusky widget]

i like that too

idk about the slow but the cooldown seems applicable

[lament shale]

idk just something, the fact that the current endgame boss can be easily beaten with 0 armor and just using escape is really telling isnt it

[dusky widget]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dqytRWDsnCc&t=0s 🤯

[lament shale]

no way is that epanda

[dusky widget]

it is

[lament shale]

blood pressure rising

[dusky widget]

FR

[inner elk]

@lament shale https://forums.wynncraft.com/threads/whirlwind-strike-hitbox.306737/#post-3593671
bro please tl;dr

[lament shale]

that isnt even a long post

[inner elk]

more than 3 sentences -> unreadable

[lament shale]

just go to the end then

[inner elk]

basically you propose making the hitbox a christmas hat?

[lament shale]

nop

[dusky widget]

yes

[inner elk]

like this if I understand correctly

[lament shale]

yeah kinda

less of a cone though

just make it so u gotta play more aggressively ya know

[inner elk]

not a terrible idea overall but for TNA most people just hover over greg anyways, you'd still have to reduce the vertical hitbox or let the boss hit flying players

[lament shale]

could nerf vertical gain a bit sure but i dont think its too necessary

[inner elk]

well until vertical gain/midair damage is changed you'll have the same problem with helicopter fmonk pushing greg's shit in from above

[lament shale]

ig

i mean the main thing that i think needs combating is just the insanely easy 360 degree movement around bosses

vertical gain could def be nerfed sure but i mostly just tried to keep map mobility the same and nerf it for combat or else lootrunners will scream

[inner elk]

🗿 just remove lootrunning

instead add nemract casino, you can buy unid mythic boxes using tokens

[lament shale]

if u do like the idea tho then rad

[leaden trail]

add casino from monumenta

[robust frost]

but as far as i know that was on hic and with a crapton of consumables

[dusk scroll]

Nope I'm not talking about crokee, a guildmate did it no consu

[robust frost]

well

[inner elk]

also, why no blanket nerf for strength/dex? when all damage from every archetype for every class is too high, surely the solution is to nerf the commonality (damage stats) instead of addressing every problem separately?

I don't see why the logic for strength/dex nerfs is any different than for def/agi/int nerfs (ability trees added too much survivability/mana sustain, so skill points baselines were reduced to compensate)

like if anything ability trees added more damage than anything else yet the root of the problem remains untouched

[delicate gale]

um akshually archers spam LLL and hold their movement keys

[cold bane]

They were nerfed because exponential scaling to make them more comparable in raw power to strength/dexterity

Even 2.0 paladin is not nearly as tanky as warrior could be in 1.20

[delicate gale]

[cold bane]

And also the damage creep was mostly caused by warrior and archer

[dusk scroll]

and now it moved to assasin

[pliant current]

mage also got a huge damage buff too

[dusk scroll]

yeah but its not milions of dps kinda buff

mage could only do that much dps in hero beta before the 10 breathless nerfs and before ambivalence got killed, and even then it wasnt practical

meanwhile archer and warrior could dish out 1 mill practical dps untill not too long ago

and assasin even crazier

[delicate gale]

marqnbg

i think mage is toooooo strong we should make it worse

[dusk scroll]

only if you make the other classes as bad

[delicate gale]

nope

[karmic marsh]

Melee mage still bad though

[dusk scroll]

melee mage was boring and cringe anyway

[cold bane]

Lowest base dps weapons and lowest melee support in the tree

[cold bane]

Assasin will get tuned down it time, if it's needed

Crafted nerfs also will hit etw builds

[sweet venture]

when the only time assassin is good in 2.0 gets nerfed and comes back to being mediocre

[cold bane]

circle of life ¯_(ツ)_/¯

I have a feeling that same happens with shaman

[strong lantern]

Why not add dmg caps to bosses so people stop whining about doing 8 million dps to Greg?

[lunar token]

That’s the gangsters paradise for you

[pure sparrow]

Nerfing strength/dex would just make them weaker than def/agi

One of the big reasons damage is so much higher is not because anything happened to str/dex but because of the insane mults available on the ability tree

[fringe perch]

what was the logic behind poison nerfs

[dusk scroll]

nobody knows

poison at its peak probably cant outdamage morph the nothing in 2.0

[fringe perch]

yeah that just makes it even more stupid why it was nerfed

[dusk scroll]

literaly 0 reason to nerf it

[fringe perch]

did anyone think at ALL toxo and poison in general was overpowered

[dusk scroll]

it was strong (?) in 1.20 i guess but then they increased all other damage by 10x so yeah

[fringe perch]

toxo could have double the poison it does right now and the nerf could be reverted and it would still be goofy and entirely unusable in raids

[raw rover]

one of the ims did

[tame comet]

maybe it was a reactionary change meant to counter toxo being too good in hunted or smthn?

[robust frost]

Hunted in its entirety needs a rework

[lament shale]

the change was made by salted I believe and it was because he felt strength affecting poison was unintuitive

was trying to find the exact quote posted by like touhoku or whatever but it was in hero beta I think

[ember holly]

people discovered antibiotics

[waxen patrol]

poison does true damage which is incredibly stupid

[ember holly]

salted knows! (He mentioned he wants to rework it in the interview)

[waxen patrol]

imho poison could be a lot stronger if they made it a "rare" stat, like not many items have it but when they do oh boy do you notice it

[fringe perch]

is poison being dogshit more intuitive

[ember holly]

Yes (people discovered antibiotics)

[fringe perch]

are you a catboy in real life

[ember holly]

I'm a catgirl in real life

[waxen patrol]

Poison was only really used for two things, semi afk mob farming and pvp (it was stupid)

[fringe perch]

thats cool

[ember holly]

meow

[fringe perch]

omg KITTY

https://tenor.com/view/cat-kitty-kitten-cute-black-cat-gif-24292188

[fringe perch]

wtf

[ember holly]

BLEGH!!

[lament shale]

i didnt make the change idk man

personally i think strength affecting it is cool it was just that pre 2.0 powder specials were fully multiplicative with poison which made it really goofy

[fringe perch]

AUGHHHHHHHHHHH

[lunar token]

madeline is secretly jinx in real life

https://tenor.com/view/jinx-the-cat-jinx-jinx-cat-cat-computer-gif-25786466

[fringe perch]

catgirl

[lunar token]

jinx is a girl cat.

[fringe perch]

no real thoughts

[cold bane]

Didn't they change that

[raw rover]

its still true damage

[warm zephyr]

hell no

actually idk why it was even nerfed but. poison moment

[waxen patrol]

I'd really like to see a spot where mobs drop high quality loot but have INSANELY high stats, like so high that you reasonably can't solo it

Encourages people to get together for more than some player looting mythics while others just take the normal items for money

[ember holly]

I like this idea

And it is definitely possible

However they'd also drop a lot of powders and junk

[waxen patrol]

powders are always appreciated

honestly I feel tier 5-6 should drop very very rarely, game never explains how to get above t4

although honestly t1-3 should just not exist imho, they do so little and people worry about them for no reason

[ember holly]

It does!

There is actually an NPC that has an absurd amount of dialogue about powders

[waxen patrol]

i thought you meant it does drop i was like what

[ember holly]

Who is a Book inside of a powder merchant shack

[waxen patrol]

right, but does it say you can only get 5-6 from combining?

[ember holly]

I mean, uh, Flarelings might drop T5s

[waxen patrol]

I've never seen them drop it

[ember holly]

Flarelings have a way way higher chance of dropping powders of their respective elements at the very least

Which makes them pretty unique. They're like those little guys that used to be in Ragni

[waxen patrol]

Powder Imps still spawn iirc

[ember holly]

no way

they must be like the emerald goblin enemies, just really rare

[warm zephyr]

they do yes

[ember holly]

level 0 mushroom

[near stone]

please dont remove the best feature of assassin

it is epic

[pliant current]

howdo you get the steve head to be like that

[cold bane]

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE, NOW ASSASIN WILL BE NERFED TO OBLIVION BECAUSE OF YOU

YOU DOOMED US ALL

[pliant current]

oblivion reference ? !

[cold bane]

No.

[pliant current]

saddening

[warm zephyr]

i think xavier is convinced it isnt real

[lament shale]

i imagine it must get tiring to constantly have people post arbitrary housing dummy damage numbers under incredibly specific circumstances with fully crafted and tomed builds that probably wouldnt even come close to working in the actual game and go "man this is so op i sure hope ct doesnt nerf this" or "how did ct let this go through???"

or literally just . double ids lol

[pliant current]

its dash stacking, while usable in combat those numbers are probably only achievable with infinite mana or a ton of time to set up

[strong lantern]

I don’t play assassin, realistically how many “dash stacks” can you land on a target like Greg or something like the eye?

[fiery portal]

dash stacking is a bug that needs to get turned to a feature

[pliant current]

infinite, thats the entire bug

[strong lantern]

I guess I don’t understand how it works

[pliant current]

hold right click = damage

[strong lantern]

I assumed it was like “land 5 in a row” then target like Greg is too far away and you have to re cast a different cycle to start it again

Again don’t know how it works at all

[pliant current]

each dash you cast has a different dancing blade, and they dont reset unless you touch the ground

[strong lantern]

Kinda based

[pliant current]

stacking exploits in 2.0 be like

[paper zealot]

That honestly sounds like a nice feature, people often suggested that as a flying kick change already

[wheat swallow]

wait so how does that work

[fiery portal]

this. basically you can keep dashing and as long as you don't land/hit anything your damage will just keep stacking

[warm zephyr]

i mean. reasonably. there should be some kind of cap on how many times you can do it. but i dont really have a problem with the bug itself

[wheat swallow]

sounds like a cool bug if balanced

[cold bane]

I wasn't serious lol

[zinc flame]

#1080744268773204029
#1073868057002397726
And other threads are great feedback btw

[near stone]

assassin is balanced

[tame comet]

what even happened there

[near stone]

goomba stomp

[lunar token]

Makes all of those shaman nerfs worth while

[fringe perch]

dash stack

[tame comet]

a bug I assume?

[fringe perch]

yes

[near stone]

i did it before they remove it

[signal gulch]

omg shaman is so op!!

[warm zephyr]

congrats lmao

[delicate gale]

15 minutes of dashing > killing normally in 1 minute

[near stone]

always

[dusky widget]

pls dont remove this the dps of dash stacking is rly bad 😭😭😭

just make it a feature!!!

[dusky widget]

?

[wheat swallow]

Wha

[warm zephyr]

i expressed that i want there to be some sort of reasonably high cap /shrug

[dusky widget]

🙏

[fringe perch]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/813593572783161385/1064777737388179456/attachment-2-1.gif

[icy seal]

Ngl it is, you litteraly didn't do it first try and it must have taken 15 mins + lmao

[pastel fox]

I enjoy one shots that take a lot of set up and aren’t really worth it in most scenarios but are fun

Other than Greg, most endgame bosses have phases so one-shotting them with 1 bajillion damage doesn’t really matter either way

[waxen patrol]

@distant epoch maybe unpin thread since 2.0.2 has been out for a good amount of time idk

[strong lantern]

Idk I think it’s a good idea to have a “pin” of the lastest patches. If/when 2.03 comes out I hope there is a thread for it

[fiery portal]

:doom:

[fiery portal]

yeah ur right 🥲

[pliant current]

is dash stacking fixed

[robust frost]

shhhh

[ember holly]

We're very aware of it.

[robust frost]

crap
i dont play assasin so idc

[strong lantern]

Would they consider making it a “feature” just tuining down the way it scales, it does seem like cool “skill expression” to be able to scale dmg by not landing on the ground

[zinc flame]

Nah fun is banned on wynn balance more important!

[wheat swallow]

I agree with buuns for once, make it a feature but balance it in some way

[inner elk]

it's already balanced lol, people just have a strong visceral reaction to the idea of 'infinite damage' without considering any other circumstances

[strong lantern]

Idk I’m not too into “one shotting” Greg from basically full health.

[pastel fox]

It takes a lot of setup and longer than just doing the fight normally

[strong lantern]

lmao

[pastel fox]

Its more of a funny strat rather than specifically better, especially since most endgame bosses have phases with separate healthbars

[karmic marsh]

It was the most fun melee class imo

[dusk scroll]

cant say since i never played other classes melee

[distant epoch]

give greg 1% thorns and reflection and watch dash stacking nuke the player too for no reason

[robust frost]

that would be hilarious

wait

that would nuke me on 1 hp fmonk aswell right?

please dont

[dusk scroll]

the duality of a man

[zinc flame]

Wtf is up with people hating dash stacking so much? It takes really long to build up the dmg anyway

[inner elk]

what the bug does: assassin can chain dashes to stack damage, but the cap is broken. even though the increase on each dash is fairly small, if you do it several hundred times in a row you can do basically infinite damage

what people see: inFInITe DAmagE

[ember holly]

No what we see is you being able to spend 5 minutes to deal 24 million damage

It's not a question of it it'll stay in the game, it's a question of when the next patch is

[dusky widget]

what does that mean…

[ember holly]

it means it is considered a bug and not a feature

[dusky widget]

so dancing blade’ll just be an tree point skill nooooo 😭

was very fun while it lasted

[pliant current]

thats only 80k dps though...

[dusky widget]

just put a cap to it or something, don’t remove it

it’s fun to play around with and build up when not attacking. it does really crappy dps, even when fully dedicating your spells to just spamming dash

like 60-90k with fully maxed out builds. it isn’t good, just fun

rewards high cps, rewards staying in the air for extended periods of time, rewards movement and builds with good mana. the only downside is that there is no cap to this ability, can this not be something that can happen?

[ember holly]

I imagine that is what will happen

[dusky widget]

oh thatd be hype yeah

[lament shale]

nerf everything that autosmord uses

[dusky widget]

[ember holly]

[strong lantern]

I think that clip took longer than 5 minutes to set up

[warm zephyr]

(you can do it much faster)

but yea what auto and maddie said

[zinc flame]

🫄

There's nothing else to say to that.

[warm zephyr]

(i do not think it will not get fixed by next patch )

[pastel fox]

24mil damage in 5 mins is 80k dps

I don’t understand why there is an issue with someone doing 5 minutes worth of dps in one attack

When that 1 attack takes 5 mins to setup

[signal gulch]

CT likes to play fast and loose with context in balancing 😿

like, one of the main reasons why shaman damage is so low is because you could theoretically put a thousand mobs within totem radius, thereby making shaman dps well into the millions

🤷

nevermind that the opportunity to put a thousand mobs within totem radius is next to nil, not to mention that those thousand mobs can also send the shaman six feet under considering the class's low base resist and unwieldly movement spell

[ember holly]

I don't know why you'd think we'd keep the one shot move in the game

Yeah like, it takes time to charge up at a rate that would make it faster to simply attack at a higher dps in that time

but that amount of damage is occuring at once

As you can see in the video, it deals so much damage it outright kills The Nameless and it circumvents all of The Watched phases

[untold cloak]

Just admit that you hate fun

[ember holly]

If I hated fun I wouldn't design stuff in fruma with archer grappling hook in mind

[pliant current]

now we know why shade is shit...

[ember holly]

Don't get me wrong, I think it's cool and it should stay in some form, but it needs a cap because otherwise it could break stuff

I imagine if you did this trick on Lari in the RoL IV fight it might just softlock

[signal gulch]

lmao I love content that's gated behind a specific archetype

but archer isn't meta guys, i promise!!!

[ember holly]

Of course there you can just /class and redo it, but there's likely opportunities where you couldnt

[untold cloak]

Ok thats based

[ember holly]

Why are you so bitter wtf

[signal gulch]

bc things keep getting designed around archer? lol

[ember holly]

???

It's not even fucking content it's literally just some places you could grapple around with some level of flow

There's no advantage to it unless you consider being 30 blocks above someone else an advantage for some reason

[signal gulch]

idk, I would classify "places you can be in" as content

i am very generalist though

[ember holly]

It's.

It's not like a cave or something. It's not some area. It's just basically hook points.

You are such a little ghoul. A little scrumple.

[signal gulch]

you (and CT in general) really don't get the issue with the fact that some things are doable as a certain class and not doable as another

[waxen patrol]

You absolute troglodyte designed around doesn’t entirely mean limited to

It’s damn hard to even MAKE places only one spell can get you to

[ember holly]

you (and you specifically) really don't get what I'm talking about

[waxen patrol]

I am still salty they stopped grapple going through barriers though

WHO TF CARES

Just bc ppl got high up in SE

[signal gulch]

it's the same issue with Greg and shaman, innit. A thing designed in a way that makes it much more difficult for a certain class than others

[ember holly]

no it's fucking not the same issue

[waxen patrol]

Bro it’s a mmo raid boss no shit one class is bad at it

[ember holly]

You have no clue what I'm talking about and it really shows

[waxen patrol]

If they are all 100% balanced then no one would care about composition

[signal gulch]

yeah, you don't see the issue

[waxen patrol]

Yeah, you don’t know how to argue

“You’re wrong.” Ok how, why, in what way, when, what part

[signal gulch]

sure

[ember holly]

You're complaining that I'm somehow giving archer w/ grapple access to content that nobody else gets. It's literally just the placement of stuff that allows you to grapple around with a certain flow to it. That's it.

It's not some loot cave, it's not some spot, it's literally the equivalent of me putting trees in a vague pattern so you could have some fun slinging around on them. That's it.

[waxen patrol]

even if it WAS a chest it would not matter bruh look how many chests favor tp

[ember holly]

But you're so fucking bitter and sour that it just has to be that "I don't know about this issue" and in contributing to it

[signal gulch]

can i get that same nice flow if I were a shaman yeeting my totem from point to point?

[ember holly]

No, because shaman doesn't have grappling hook.

[waxen patrol]

Either intentionally dishonest or unhelpably stupid

[ember holly]

Can archer* teleport through one block gaps? No

[waxen patrol]

Me on my way to complain about bosses (they deal dmg and I’m not a mage so I can’t spam heal)

[dusk scroll]

is the tldr of this whole conversation that nkklk wants all classes to have similair playstyle or am i reading it wrong

[signal gulch]

me on my way to defend shaman (they have aoe!!!!)

[ember holly]

Yeah I was just about to say 'you might as well argue that we should give all classes the grappling hook'

[waxen patrol]

Me on my way to stop reading your god awful arguments in the 2.0.2 feedback thread and just leave

[signal gulch]

i want all classes to have pros and cons but all of them end up being net equal

[waxen patrol]

Dudes never played an mmo

It’s just boring if everything is 100% equal

[signal gulch]

heh

[lament shale]

he can’t dodged watched on shaman so now he makes it his life goal to shit on the class unless it’s the best class in the game

[waxen patrol]

Imagine saying the watched is hard when you can just walk

[signal gulch]

so the balancing policy really is to make classes unequal? good to know

[dusk scroll]

he probably salty that he cant get in pug tna runs with shaman but i mean have you tried geting in a pug 15+ key in world of warcraft as warrior dps ?

[lament shale]

no you are just a moron

[signal gulch]

idk nagisa literally said equal is boring

[waxen patrol]

And I am not on the balance team

[signal gulch]

i can quote reply the msg if you want

[ember holly]

Yes and no. Ideally we want all classes to have pros and cons, but we pretty explicitly don't want all classes to be good and bad at everything.

Yes, we do want classes and archetypes to be unequal in specific fields, but not overall

[waxen patrol]

nkklk on their way to say all element mythics should be the same fr

[dusk scroll]

take mage for example, its literaly decent at everything but isnt amazing at anything

[signal gulch]

oh that is helpful, I was just about to reply CT have implied it was

good to have confirmation

[waxen patrol]

I’m not ct anymore

[lament shale]

does qa really count

[ember holly]

Nagisa join back for 15 minutes so I can show you something really cool

[signal gulch]

i was talking about madeline but pop off king

[waxen patrol]

I refuse to rejoin wynn servers while ability shards in their state and refuse to work on wynn as long as silverbull is directly tradable for emeralds

[signal gulch]

make silverbull tradable but only via level 1 mats

[ember holly]

you won't be working you'll be subjected to content not making it

[signal gulch]

i love a compromise

[waxen patrol]

No thanks, only having to test something for 4 mins once a year isn’t that fun

[ember holly]

I'm not asking

https://tenor.com/view/jerma985-jerma-burger-meat-grinder-gif-25978363

[dusk scroll]

i still cant understand the hate towards shards

yes its not a good feature to have but its not a bad one either

i get why you want it removed but i dont get why go the extra mile

[signal gulch]

forget shards. delete soulpoints

regressive game design

[waxen patrol]

I’ve said before shards are dumb but not dumb enough for me to quit. The problem is them being introduced NOW after it seemed salted processed the feedback of soul points cost in resetting skill points being annoying

[waxen patrol]

Salted has said before they plan on doing it afaik could be wrong though I always hear stuff second hand about soul points

[strong lantern]

You can kill lari with your pet during that time it doesn’t break the quest

Ik because I tried anything possible to be able to kill her

[robust frost]

well, you can do that without the onetap thing too

[dusky widget]

this ct slander ive been reading is undeserved

[tame comet]

“But it’s cool!” Is not a good enough reason for leaving a bug that allows players to do millions of damage in 1 instance in the game.

Nuff said

[strong lantern]

But it’s not though

[strong lantern]

It takes much longer to set up than conventional fighting something like Greg

[robust frost]

yeah, it takes me around 60 seconds to kill greg (excluding watched and skill issue due to 1 hp gaming) as solo

[tame comet]

It doesn’t matter how long it takes to be set up, what I said still applies.

[dusky widget]

just add a cap gg

[strong lantern]

No? You’re reasoning is just flawed. In the time it takes to set up the 22 million hp Greg one shot, you lose much more “dps” setting it up then doing the fight normally. It’s not this insane tech that instantly deletes every boss and invalidated wynncraft. It takes skill it set it up and tons of time. Don’t treat it like you click 1 button and instant win.

Maybe just skill issue on my end but when I try to learn the “trick” it’s actually really hard to do

[tame comet]

I never said it was an insta win button. I just don’t like the idea of doing millions of damage in 1 very quick instance.

And whatever skill it takes to accomplish does not make it appear better for me.

[dusk scroll]

that sounds like a you problem more than a game design problem

[strong lantern]

literally ZERO actual thought or reasoning. wtf is the difference between dong a normal fight within 3-7 minutes and taking over 10-15 minutes setting up a one shot

like genuianilly, besides you "skip" harder parts of the fight the is coded in the "end section" but there is no real "boss" like that that doesnt have "invinvible phases" that literally spawn a new enemy you cant one shot like orange cybel

[tame comet]

The difference is slowly taking down the bosses health vs doing a gazillion damage in 1 instance. That is the problem.

[strong lantern]

greg it like the only acception to the instakill rule because he doesnt spawn a new model when he goes into a new phase

[strong lantern]

use ur brain please. whats the problem with that?

dont remove the context of the cost it takes to set up "gazillion dmg"

they way you talk its an "instawin" button which it is not

[dusk scroll]

thats like saying oh riftwalker at 30 winded does more dps than arcanist wtf its so broken

[tame comet]

You're literally skipping the hardest phases of the fight by instakilling the boss...

[dusky widget]

just add a cap gg

also the watched isnt the hardest part of the fight lol

[dusk scroll]

what kinda nonsense is that? is the watched the hardest phase? lmao

[tame comet]

And what happens when we get a boss harder than the nameless in which the setup is actually the fastest way to defeat the boss?

[dusky widget]

maybe in pfinder

[tame comet]

As the nameless' health gets lower it starts to use harder attacks more frequently

[dusky widget]

just add a cap no? doesn’t seem that deep to me

[lament shale]

it’s an exploit end of story sure add a cap instead of completely removing it but keeping it as is is idiotic

[dusk scroll]

yeah obviously it doesnt have to infinitely stack dmg but the feature itself is nice

[tame comet]

There are many ways to deal with it, I just don't understand why people are defending this being in the game.

[sonic ether]

i dont see why people want it removed

cts said they want a cap i think and it makes sense to cap it

granted removing is capping it technically

[dusky widget]

i mean it is pretty funny to use. but yeah i dont get why people defend it so valiantly, i agree with the idea that being able to skip entire bosses by just building it up in the easiest phase is dumb

especially on a class that can do it so incredibly safely

dashing and lacerating while having jasmine bloom bump your mana up even more on top of having your mana regen makes it incredibly safe to build up dashes

[sonic ether]

yeah

[strong lantern]

because if you land any other spell you mess it up? thus its really hard to actually practically do in fights

[dusky widget]

that isnt how the dash stack resets

[strong lantern]

from what i was trying to firgure out its actually pretty hard to do in actually senarios

[dusky widget]

it resets if you:

1. Land
2. Hit an enemy, but it only resets for the enemies that you hit.

[sonic ether]

ah so you gotta stay in the air the entire time

[strong lantern]

yes

[sonic ether]

that sounds even harder than just not using another spell

[strong lantern]

ya it is

[dusky widget]

For example if there were 2 enemies and i dash stacked 30 times, and hit enemy 1, i’d hit that enemy 30 times with dash, and dashing subsequently would reset the stacks on that enemy only

so if i were to dash 10 more times and hit enemy 2, it’d hit enemy 2 40 times, but enemy 1 10 times

[strong lantern]

i dont see how people see this has instant game breaking tech thats my whole side. its niche and hard to pull off. let players get their funny insta kill from 15 minutes of set up

[lament shale]

it doesn’t have to be game breaking

[dusky widget]

it’s the fact that it can 1 shot anything with enough build up. it isn’t game breaking, just not very intuitive for fighting bosses or enemies

[lament shale]

https://tenor.com/view/i-should-skin-people-alive-gif-26319329

[strong lantern]

i dont see a problem with this, if it takes on avg "5 mins" to kill anyways why shout it matter you can one shot it with "15 minutes" of set up

[dusky widget]

because it skips the phases. it trivializes any boss

if it took even 30 minutes to build up, the case would be the same

[strong lantern]

not any, majoirty have different models they use for different phases like orange cycbel that would still spawn, greg and a few others are a rare acception

[dusky widget]

this doesn’t remove the fact that it can just skip things

[strong lantern]

like almost every boss on LI you couldn't "one shot" like this

[dusky widget]

i have the literal perfect gif for this hold on

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/922956404191555626/1021578735905931304/ratio.gif

[strong lantern]

bro chose the single boss you could do this too

that pretty big cherry picking lmao

[dusky widget]

it was funny

[strong lantern]

its a bad faith exapmle

[dusky widget]

either way, i think just adding a cap is a good middle ground to this

[dusky widget]

i kinda dont care i’ll be honest, i’m trying to prove a point that being able to skip bosses with dash stacking is pretty ridiculous

[strong lantern]

what "phase" are you trvializing with that gif? it seems like that example you arent "skipping" anything

[dusky widget]

ignore the gif, i just thought it was fitting

[strong lantern]

again if it took you 20 minutes to set that up compaired to an actualy 5 minute fight its a bad example of what you are trying to prove

[dusky widget]

let’s take tna for an example. like in the video of him getting 1 shot

[tame comet]

How though, he is just trying to prove that skipping bosses with dash is ridiculous, you keep mentioning the time and skill factor but that doesn't necessarily matter here.

[strong lantern]

that took alot of set up, he said it took multiple tries and almost 15-20 mins

[dusky widget]

im gonna tell you now that it does not take 15-20 minutes to set that up

ive used it many times before. you can gather up about 1 mil damage in maybe 15 seconds of spamming

[strong lantern]

fine post the whole greg fight

[dusky widget]

?

im not doing that just for this conversation

[strong lantern]

record and post a greg fight of you winning in 15 seconds if tis so easy

[dusky widget]

are you good? 15 seconds?

[strong lantern]

invaild wont provide evidence

[dusky widget]

least childish wynncraft discord member

[strong lantern]

i can do 10 million dps, wont provide evidence

[dusky widget]

if youre not willing to even listen to my points, that’s fine. just know that this isn’t going to stay no matter how much you complain

[strong lantern]

im asking you to prove you point cause i dont belive you and you just say nah trust me

[dusky widget]

let me try to calculate it then instead of recording an entire video just for the sake of “proving you wrong/myself right”

assuming around 3 dashes per second are done, let’s say, with tomes, a dash would do like, what, 15k?

[strong lantern]

ok then its all "hypotheical" and the most optimal way of playing which isnt viable in fights like greg

but continue to talk in a vacuume

[dusky widget]

that isn’t what im trying to prove. it’s the fact that you can just skip the entire fight

i’ll admit i got off track in terms of the time it took to do the whole process

[strong lantern]

im saying you arent "skipping" them because realistically it takes more time set up dash stacking perfectly than it takes to just do a normal fight. MAJORTY of fights arent like greg with a single model with phases that ramp up. hes really one of the only bosses you can out dps "phases"

divzer archers can skip watching cycles with enough dps, this isnt a "one shot" problem

[dusky widget]

but you are skipping them. it doesnt matter how long it takes, the boss instantly dies as a result of iy

[dusk scroll]

nick brought a good point earlier tho, greg becoming more and more agressive the lower health he gets

with the 1shot you just avoid that

[sonic ether]

great

seems convenient

[strong lantern]

^

[cold bane]

There's one one shot that is kinda bullshit to die to

[dusk scroll]

divzer can 1 phase but still has to deal with greg ramp up from losing health

[cold bane]

I think that homing eyes should deal less damage but for example blind for longer

[dusky widget]

because that’s just cuz the class is broken, not because of an unintentional “feature”

[dusk scroll]

watched isnt even the threatening ability you are skiping

[dusky widget]

this isn’t a balance issue, it’s a bug

[dusk scroll]

its greg becoming more agressive and spaming more abilities with less health thats threatening

[cold bane]

(Unless you are shaman)

[dusk scroll]

just build 80-90 walk speed and u good

[dusky widget]

hopeless 3

[strong lantern]

i dont want this to be removed like how grape bomb was "fixed" single worst "fix" ever imo

[cold bane]

Yeah, but still it's kinda sad that you have to build around specific thing that if you don't do you pretty much have very bad time

[strong lantern]

it was a cool mechanic that lead to interesting build but it got gutted instead of toned down

let classes have thier funny neiche builds its not even like its better than the best of the "meta" thats my whole point

theres no reason to really do it since its harder and takes more time unless you think its funny or you extremely struggle at the end parts of a boss

[dusk scroll]

as long as it gets a cap so it cant actualy 1shot bosses then i see no problem

[cold bane]

Timed damage reduction hmmm

If he takes enough damage in certain amount of time (for example 20% of his max health in 5 seconds) he will get 50% damage reduction for next 10s lul

[strong lantern]

imo thats a way more based change that constantly trying to nerf classes/the meta

[tame comet]

seems like a complex solution to a simple problem...

[cold bane]

And please make greg fight less of a mobility check

[plain canopy]

i mean doesn't dash stacking count as a glitch?

[cold bane]

A lot of modded terraria bosses have mechanic similar to this...

[strong lantern]

seems like a simple solution to a long complex problem that could be applied to alot of bosses that got power crep by 2.0

[tame comet]

The power creep applies in many ways, not just dps.

also I thought @cold bane was referring to dash stacking

[cold bane]

Honestly for the greg fight:

• make homing eyes deal less damage but increase cc duration and maybe like give a player weakness because this attack is hardly visible sometimes and can easily kill you when you least expect it
• make watched's explosion have radius smaller but for example make it target 2 people
• make greg lock on a position 0.5s before his charge and instead make it longer
  Last changes to make it less of a mobility check

[tame comet]

just remove all mobility options

[zinc flame]

I mean greg generally dies in less than 5 minutes anyway....

[dusk scroll]

the watched phase argument is kinda invalid cuz that phase is the least threatening

but the mechanic where greg starts spaming more abilities the lower hp he gets is a better argument against 1shoting

[ember holly]

Please read the rest of what I said

[zinc flame]

bet

[zinc flame]

ok yeah this is a good explanation

[inner elk]

cope, the team just can't be bothered to work this stuff into the game in a meaningful way
this will 75% sure be gutted like grape bomb

[pliant current]

can't you do this with shadestepper too?

since lari only has like 220k hp iirc

[strong lantern]

Literally my biggest fear

[warm zephyr]

zz

[midnight nacelle]

i don't really care for the whole "dancing blade stacking isnt op" argument, while it may not ever be practical that does not justify it not having to be fixed. dealing ludicrous amounts of damage in a single hit is gonna end up breaking something eventually. (and even now it does skip TNA watched phases as well as that RoL 4 point from earlier)

a more balanced intended version of dancing blade stacking is something im not entirely against if that were to be added sure, the concept isnt bad i just dont want things breaking or unintended bugs occurring because of it

[gleaming epoch]

this whole argument is dumb

[dusky widget]

youre dumb!!!

[gleaming epoch]

assassin players just want dancing blade because its a fun tech to pull off, i dont think i've seen a single one advocate for infinitely stacking damage

[dusky widget]

nvm youre not dumb

[gleaming epoch]

meanwhile everyone else cant see past the infinite damage label and thinks assassin players are trying to justify infinite damage by saying it needs tech and skill

[tame comet]

So you think the damage should be capped then?

[strong lantern]

Ig let me try to word this as best I can, I don’t it’s practical to get to infinite dmg, I think this nieche tech will be gutted into the ground if you put like a 50k-200k cap which is what realistically ct team would probably do

That’s why I says just leave it alone let people do their funny flying strat, it’s not meta defining, and skill issue on my end but it’s decently hard to keep hitting it consistently especially on a moving target

[waxen patrol]

I think what is always good is to not just do the most practical thing. Take what people actually liked about it, the setup into a super massive damage hit, and apply that where possible. Could be stuff like making marks bonus higher (Idk, i don't play assassin)

could even be like marks are slightly weaker but you can now have significantly more

[tame comet]

I mean the idea of doing a butt load of damage in 1 instance is kind of shadestepper's thing

not acro's

[waxen patrol]

yeah, it wouldn't be a perfect solution for that reason

[gleaming epoch]

it should be capped and rebalanced

[ember holly]

The rate at which damage accumulates could be increased

But there should be a cap on it for what should now be obvious reasons ( I do not care to explain said major reason again)

[inner elk]

but this would just shift the dps model to be more consistent/less burst

which defeats the entire point

[storm anchor]

more archer lr 🤯

[ember holly]

You act like the cap is going to be super super low and not like 3 million

[strong lantern]

plz just dont make the cap like 200k

[tame comet]

If I am being honest I don't see the point in keeping it in any form. There is probably a better way to use dev resources than to reform this bug into an actual ability.

[inner elk]

sounds extremely incorrect, this is the first thing that allows assassin to "assassinate" and it's almost certainly worth the effort

[tame comet]

Then it should be on Shadestepper, the archetype centered around this type of gameplay.

[inner elk]

that is true, although first shadestepper would need to be reworked from the ground up (it is garbage)

[gleaming epoch]

see you're still harping on the whole infinite damage thing

if a cap is added and the way it stacks tweaked, it wont be a shadestepper-like ability anymore

[tame comet]

How?

[gleaming epoch]

shadestepper certainly isnt centered around dashing around mid air to hit enemies

[tame comet]

you mean "enemy" singular

[gleaming epoch]

the key characteristic people want to keep is the tech of not touching the ground to deal more damage

it doesnt need to be singular damage, nor does it need to be large damage

we'll be turning a bug into a feature after all, the devs are free to interpret the ability-to-be however they see fit

it could be as simple as 2 dash stacks giving ur dash an aoe

which would certainly not fit shadestepper

[tame comet]

Yeah I'd definitely support something like this, but I think a damage boost or something similar would be better than what it currently is, even with a damage cap.

[gleaming epoch]

yeah a damage self buff is another possibility

[tame comet]

As to whether or not we'd get something like that is another story 😦

[gleaming epoch]

yeah that depends on the devs really

[lament shale]

it's a bug that can potentially cause issues in the future whether you personally like it or not is irrelevant

[dusky widget]

adding a cap doesn’t seem that complicated to do.

but i’m no dev, so i can’t say much. i just hope it stays in some capacity

if the ability to stack dashes were not implemented, both dancing blade and pirouette would be some of the weakest options that you could take a on a tree, no doubting that

a meagre 80% dps, upgraded to 120% later down the tree each time you dash with no way to increase is really pitiful. Jasmine bloom does 80% dps 3.33 times per second

just being able to stack it even a little will give dancing blade purpose and a place on the tree, rather than just being some forgettable niche ability thag you just take because it costs 1 ap compared to the other options that cost 2

[dusky widget]

on top of that, even taking pirouette will cause you to just get launched up to like 15 blocks in the air depending on your momentum, causing you to deal a super low amount of damage in return for getting launched away from every enemy you hit. it’s just something that everyone is going to ignore cause it’ll go from a nice increase to the total amount of damage that you do as well as a decent movement option to keep yourself afloat incase you almost touch the ground, keeping your dash stacks, to just something that literally actively hinders your damage for a brief period

this also doesn’t help with how flow state works, alongside other damage increasing abilities, as a large number of them are on a flat timer

so the time you’re spending getting launched into the air because of the incredible 120% dps that you just did is now also wasting all of the potential cooldowns that may be up at the moment

[dusky widget]

this can easily be fixed by just adding a moderate cap to how much damage it can do, i don’t think removing it is the solution as there’s a middleground for those who don’t like the ability and those who do

i think of it as a bug fix in the form of a balance patch

oh also pirouette still isn’t an acrobat archetype. idk if that’s something that is ever going to happen, but the fact that it isnt will make it even more stupidly useless to take if dash stacking were to be fully removed

[pliant current]

you can use it for oblivion cycling i guess

[dusky widget]

prob not worth it as the large majority of builds use curse or courage, so you’d be losing dps by just swapping

[pliant current]

no like as the main weapon

[dusky widget]

even then that’s a super niche use

[pliant current]

instead of lacerate to hover you use pirohette

although it deals less damage

[dusky widget]

you cant just not take lacerate as acrobat

[pliant current]

yeah but you just dont use it and instead use dash to hover

[dusky widget]

it deals less damage and forces you to deal contact damage to an enemy, there’s so few scenarios where you actually want to do that. especially with an oblivion build

[gleaming epoch]

the discussion is not whether or not to keep the bug, its whether the bug should be entirely removed, or whether it should be patched and reimplemented as a feature

thats why the crux of the discussion is centered around the skill expression that dash stacking adds, and how it might be reimplemented in a balanced way

[lament shale]

it’s

not that hard to pull off

[gleaming epoch]

skill expressive combos dont need to be hard to pull off

[lament shale]

lol

[gleaming epoch]

its true though

take the super jump bug that mercy had in overwatch

its not hard to pull off at all but it allows for more skill expression in the form of movement

similarly, dash stacking can add more things to think about when moving around

[zinc flame]

Btw how do u prevent the same thing happening with etw shade builds, do they not break some stuff?

Just curious

[cold bane]

Dash stacking should stay in game, just add a cap to it
I just agree with the others

There are many games that did that and that only made it beneficial to the game or made communities pleased

[untold cloak]

no, you dont understand: we cant have fun

[cold bane]

:/

[zinc flame]

imo this situation kinda reminds me of old vanish flying, rest in peace 🫡

[dusky widget]

horrible mentality

[flint birch]

I don't understand how to dash stack someone teach me ;-;

[untold cloak]

step 1: dash
repeat

[flint birch]

but like how do you start and end it

ig you don't do anything to start it

but you end it with a dash?

[dusky widget]

1. Dash in the air
2. Use lacerate and hop to stay airborne
3. If you aren’t in need of going higher, use dash cycled with lacerate

each dash you do will stack in damage until you hit an enemy. once you do, the dash stacks resets *per enemy, similar to satsujin cooldown

if you land the stacks reset

[strong lantern]

Oh wait what I though you constantly had to hit the target to apply the stack, no wonder I couldn’t figure out how to do it

[sage moon]

Why are Windy Feet, Frenzy, and Stormy Feet all on the boltslinger side

windy feet doesnt matter, but it makes no sense to have both the walk speed boosting abilities to be relegated to one archetype

getting frenzy wastes a lot of AP but is possible (that's fine) but why is stormy feet locked by having phantom ray

that doesnt make sense

[raw rover]

boltslinger is supposed to be the fast archetype though

[lament shale]

windy feet doesnt have an archetype and is easily grabbable by all 3 archetypes

considering boltslinger is the shit out arrows and move fast archetype i think stormy feet being on there is fine and sharpshooter not being able to grab it is also fine since you have range benefit

frenzy should just be near the end of the boltslinger tree realistically lol

[sage moon]

Hmm I guess

The only benefit of frenzy at the end of the tree is that you lose access to it early game

Which I don't think it necessary

[lament shale]

i dont really think early game should have access to it

stormy feet alone outspeeds most early game content and mobs

[tame comet]

Just make it more easily accessible to every archetype in the later game

[lament shale]

why though 🥴

[tame comet]

bc speed is op

[robust frost]

Yes
Frenzy is way too broken
Imo it should be removed
You can literally wear statue and still move because of how stupid frenzy is

[strong lantern]

Plz don’t nerf it anymore it’s very nice for lr ing

[inner elk]

remove lrunning too

[dusk scroll]

Remove frenzy on god

[wheat swallow]

Maybe make frenzy be worse from further away, that would reinforce bolts playstyle and make it less op

Or have it like flow state with something you can build up, and it lasts for a while before going on a short cooldown

[robust frost]

That would make frenzy fully unusable and a waste of 2 ap
I approve

[zinc flame]

Being op = bad

Makes game less fun

[wheat swallow]

I mean, not like a million second cd. It would just require a lot of hits up close to fully activate and make it more bursty. It gives a burst of speed instead of constant speed so it's less reliable and you have to use it while you have it.

[robust frost]

Literally any cooldown would make it unreliable enough to not be viable

[dusk scroll]

cries in arcane speed

[sage moon]

hope you don't pull a muscle making that stretch

[lament shale]

making frenzy like flow state honestly does sound pretty interesting

regardless it still absolutely needs a nerf

[robust frost]

Oh yeah
Honestly
Arcane speed rework idea:
No cooldown but it only activates if you actually transfer mana

[dusk scroll]

ive suggested that before

frankly i dont care about arcane speed buff but i sure as hell want the bug to get fixed

[robust frost]

I never had the speed bug but i only played arcanist for like maybe 5 hours so idk

[dusk scroll]

it doesnt happen too often and its easy to fix (class) but its still anoying

[gleaming epoch]

so something like rune of acceleration?

[lament shale]

rune of acceleration is pretty different

[gleaming epoch]

idk my idea of a flow state ability is something that ramps up and ramps down with a cooldown inbetween

which is pretty much rune of acceleration

[lament shale]

well, that isnt what flow state is

[gleaming epoch]

:shrug: if u say so

"Or have it like flow state with something you can build up, and it lasts for a while before going on a short cooldown"

[lament shale]

thats what they said, but not what flow state is compared to the likes of rune of acceleration lol

[gleaming epoch]

so whats your idea of a flow state ability then

coz i'm pretty sure a ramp up ability is what daktota here meant

[lament shale]

you build it up from attacking an enemy (or whatever mechanic you want to incorporate for the class) and the bonus (damage in the case of actual flow state) is just immediately as strong as it is when you get it. it doesnt ramp up. thats not what my idea of a flow state ability is, thats what the ability actually is

rune of acceleration progressively increases walk speed when you use it, and so it's pretty different mechanically

if you want this rework of frenzy to be like rune of acceleration, then sure, but i have no idea why you're trying to debate the semantics of it when it is clearly different lol

[gleaming epoch]

ah, so basically get x stacks to trigger y effect

[lament shale]

frenzy currently basically already works more like rune of acceleration than it does flow state anyways, minus the fact that rune of acceleration actually starts off negatively

[gleaming epoch]

i'm not, i'm just going off of my interpretation of what they said and my own understanding of a flow state which is something that gets better the more you do it

i personally would consider riftwalker's sprint effect more of a flow state than time locked, for example

[gleaming epoch]

yeah pretty much, minus the cooldown

[lament shale]

idk just nuke frenzy already like damn

[robust frost]

[wheat swallow]

The buildup from one thing to a instant effect was the idea yes. It's a random one so it's probably not great. Theres other ways to nerf it is what Im saying

[cold bane]

I mean, if mage, warrior and shaman can fly then why assasin can't :/

[robust frost]

acrobat

[cold bane]

Couldn't*

But acro flight is kinda meh compared to these 3 mentioned

[dusky widget]

it’s kinda really good but sure

[cold bane]

I mean, needs enemies to be able to fly for longer (I think)

[dusky widget]

wait why shaman? that class can like barely move

[dusky widget]

you dont

[cold bane]

Isn't it like, you don't gain much height when in the air?

[dusky widget]

that’s definitely not the case

have you like, played acrobat? that class has the best combination of sustained vertical and horizontal movement out of any class

[zinc flame]

assassin can fly but not in the old method, also shaman is dogshit at flying

[delicate gale]

Woah shaman vertical is insaner….

[cold bane]

Yeah, kinda

[gleaming epoch]

shaman flight is only decent if u dont take better totem

once you take that, the distance for blood connection to proc is too far

[zinc flame]

without blood connection

[delicate gale]

wattttafak

[sonic ether]

i mean like the walkspeed abilities should be together

[warm zephyr]

have you played acro?

oooooops that was from 4am

[umbral gull]

https://tenor.com/view/aintnoway-gif-27058877

[cold bane]

Oh I know, swap frenzy and stormy feet places

[lunar token]

2.0.2 should've added the little one pet

[gusty egret]

healthy as in it's in the negatives

[dusk scroll]

you are delusional if you think that

[gusty egret]

🥱🥱🥱

[dusk scroll]

why was everyone okay with 40-50k dps in 1.20 but now even 100-150k is considered negative

2.0 really made people want more and more dps for no reason

[signal gulch]

meta innit

50k dps is not fine when there are people hitting 150k regularly

if you want people to be okay with 50k dps then make 50k dps the upper limit (right now, it is not)

[dusk scroll]

umm thats not what im saying

150k is the lowest right now, people are drooling over warrior/archer doing 300-400k dps and assasin doing god knows how much dps

[signal gulch]

yes, that's the meta

[dusk scroll]

no thats unbalanced classes

[signal gulch]

well that's the fault of CT, innit. they are literally the ones fiddling with the classes

but they are focused on nerfing uhhh....shaman

[dusk scroll]

sure, but my whole point is that 150k dps shouldnt be considered negative dps

like a certain stratiformis archer believes

[signal gulch]

it kind of is. imagine a Greg fight with 4 available slots.

You could have 4 archers, 300k DPS each for a total of 1.2M DPS.

If you sub one of those archers with a mage dealing 50k dps...you're losing 250k DPS in your team.

Hence, -250k effective DPS.

[dusk scroll]

do i have to remind you that greg is a raid boss? a single character with 150k dps will kill greg in 4-5 minutes which is 5-10 minutes faster than it should happen

also you rly have no idea what state mage is in huh? even morph the nothing does 75k dps unboosted and without tomes

[signal gulch]

bro I am using the numbers you put up for the sake of simplicity

[dusk scroll]

you are understanding my numbers wrong

[signal gulch]

okay let's use the numbers for morph the nothing (75k)

you're still 225k behind on archer...

[dusk scroll]

150k dps is the peak mage dps without tomes while 40-50k dps is 1.20 dps, my argument was that current mage dps would be healthy for the game not 1.20 dps

[signal gulch]

even at peak mage (no tomes), that 150k is still negative 100k DPS from what an archer could be

[dusk scroll]

...

its less than archer yes but what he meant by negative is that mage dps was worthless and not viable

[signal gulch]

well

it kind of is. again, why would anyone take in a mage when they could have an archer or assassin

[dusk scroll]

which is not the case cuz mage can literaly solo greg in 4 minutes or even less

[signal gulch]

how long would it take for archer?

[dusk scroll]

2

[signal gulch]

exactly

[dusk scroll]

being worse than the meta class doesnt make the weaker class useless

even mage has no buisiness soloing greg in 4 minutes if we look at it from a mmorpg perspective

[signal gulch]

the sooner you finish Greg, the sooner you can start a new round.

Like, a mage can do 15 rounds of Greg in an hour. An archer can do 30. That's, what? A difference of 75 (over a stack) of LE?

It's all about the meta.

[dusk scroll]

your whole argument is pointless cuz im well aware whats meta and what isnt

my point is that the overall dps in 2.0 should be reduced, i never said that mage is or should be meta

[signal gulch]

agreed. but it really isn't looking like that will be happening any time soon, heh

[dusk scroll]

idk about soon but im sure the ct will do smth about it considering a lot of them have expressed their discontent with the inflated dps

[signal gulch]

even after a couple of patches, there are classes that are a hundred K or so of DPS above the rest

[dusk scroll]

well asasin did literaly go from worst to best in 1 patch so yeaah

[signal gulch]

exactly

you wanted things to be reduced (they were instead increased)

[dusk scroll]

but thats more a problem of people realising that assasin is actualy decent after crying about it being bad 24/7

[signal gulch]

CT is like....100k steps back, 300k steps forward

i mean it was pretty bad pre-patch2 kek

[dusk scroll]

it was bad for general use cuz it was inconvenient but the dps was NUTS

they shnould have reduced the dps while making it more convenient to use

[warm zephyr]

to be fair trickster was never bad

or. acro or shadestepper really but like. from a meta pov

either way i kinda stopped doing at stuff so idk what's happening there anymore

but . trickster is too good for sure lol

[signal gulch]

anyway my point is that CT is not good at properly scaling back damage numbers. they either greatly nerf the wrong classes (RIP shaman), ineffective at nerfing the ones that actually need it (archer), or create a whole new overbuffed class (assassin)

so uh. don't hold your breath that the problem of overzealous damage numbers will be fixed anytime soon

so. you need to lobby hard for your favorite class to be buffed instead of praying that the other classes get nerfed

[vocal fiber]

Acro and trick are godly while shade is still not great right? ive been busy since the assassin patch dropped

[warm zephyr]

im pretty sure thats basically whats been going on (i am in the same predicament)

[signal gulch]

but yeah i promise shaman is relatively fine (trust)

[dusk scroll]

meh i dont need my favorite class buffed, its alredy strong enough (mage)

[signal gulch]

i also love negative damage

[dusk scroll]

keep being delusional 📮

some people dont need to kill things in seconds to enjoy the game 🤯

[signal gulch]

idk maybe i am poor but i look at the opportunity to get a whole stack more of LE and think "Hmmm i want that"

[dusk scroll]

well i dont even see tna as money making method so i guess its a playstyle diff

[strong lantern]

Says this 2 chats after calling someone delusional

[dusk scroll]

see the difference is that nkklk gave a reason for why he thinks that

i called him delusional as well before he gave a reason

[lament shale]

also pretty important to note that these "averages" are still usually multi-mythic or even crafted builds with tomes and do not accurately reflect the base damages of the classes 🙂

[strong lantern]

“I don’t see tna as a money making method”

That’s delusional

[dusk scroll]

tomed mage does 200-230k dps , i was using untomed dps

[dusk scroll]

have you heard of lootruning? its about 50 times better for money making

[lament shale]

your average non-mythic build still wouldnt put up the numbers you claimed and using stuff like mythics and or crafteds for ""base class damage standards"" is just really silly and forces a narrative

[dusk scroll]

doesnt matter, non mythics are the same difference in dps between classes except with smaller numbers

[strong lantern]

I’ll try not to flame but imo lr is much worse than grinding tna, lr depends a lot on other players on the server vs finding 3 people in ur guild to run tna for an hour or 2, tna is much more consistent for emeralds vs a random chance you find a mythic worth millions vs avg a stack of le.

[dusk scroll]

morph the nothing doing 75k dps for example is absurd and shouldnt be happening (but its also considered trash dps)

[strong lantern]

Don’t get me wrong I lr too it’s just very frustrating to find good worlds vs finding “good” tna groups

[lament shale]

when your argument is revolving around how classes have evolved through differing updates and what damage standards are being seen as "normal", then yeah, i think differentiating between non mythic and more optimized builds is pretty important lmao

also just because of the way that it can be interpreted, like by a certain someone who i will not name that's set on one class that i will not name only dealing x amount of damage non mythic whilst other classes are doing x amount of damage with highly optimized builds

omg guys x class is sooooooo bad!

[dusk scroll]

see thats easier said than done, aint nobody braging about their unoptimized non mythic build so how should i know what dps those builds do

im using peak dps cuz thats whats talked about the most so i have a better idea of it

[lament shale]

test it yourself then...? and if you have no experience with those classes why try to make brash generalist statements as if you definitively know what theyre capable of

[dusk scroll]

have you tested them all to speak?

[lament shale]

yes?

well not all just the classes i enjoy playing the most, being warrior archer and shaman

[dusk scroll]

every single class with non mythic and mythic builds ?

[lament shale]

not a big mage or assassin player personally

[dusk scroll]

thought so

[lament shale]

i only give my opinions on the classes that i play o_o

wild idea, i know

[dusk scroll]

when did i give opinions on other classes anyway? i just mentioned their dps thats all

[lament shale]

that's... pretty important lol

[dusk scroll]

? everyone knows the rough amount of dps classes do

[lament shale]

apparently not

[dusk scroll]

except shaman i have no idea there

stating the dps is not an opinion its a fact

[fallen lantern]

All classes can deal very decent damage now. Shaman not so much.

[lament shale]

"everyone knows damage it's a fact 🥴 "

[dusk scroll]

do i srsly have to explain this again