#2.0.2 Constructive Feedback Megathread

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waxen patrol
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You are 100% correct that I didn’t read the context I said such.

agile rivet
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Oh well yea obviously this is a business

waxen patrol
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Hi I’m not obligated to be kind, you’re stupid if you think this is the only reason

dusk scroll
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well 2 worlds got crashed within 30 minutes of eachother sooo yeah

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the first world crash can be accident sure but the second 🤨

waxen patrol
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Making an enjoyable game is also something you can do 🤯🤯🤯

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Committing a crime and self reporting will still get you punished.

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Players are obliged, it’s public info what is bannable.

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If what you’re doing crashes a world, you’re fine. If you go out of your way to continue you’re guilty.

limpid parcel
waxen patrol
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Exploiting is in the rules, and it’s enforced within reason. You aren’t going to be intentionally dishonest here.

ancient jackal
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To my knowledge, thats not me. I've told OmegaCKL that the only server I've crashed was around GMT+8 03:00a.m. where my friend was in a laggy ass server telling me to join, and It was collapsed after some spell cycling, not even spamming smoke bombs.

waxen patrol
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if you do something, even as simple as WALKING, and it crashes a world and you keep joining worlds over and over and doing it KNOWING it will crash you will be banned.

agile rivet
flint birch
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bro WHAT IS THIS CHAT AHAHAHHAA

waxen patrol
dusk scroll
flint birch
lunar token
agile rivet
waxen patrol
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Hi smartass I specifically said IF because I said I HEARD and I was not corrected. I was instead shown more proof regarding it.

flint birch
agile rivet
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asthae when a discussion occurs he is not involved in

dusk scroll
waxen patrol
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I very very very much can. And if I’m wrong it becomes their job to show innocence. Quite literally that’s what accusations of rule breaking (when I have proof 🤯) are

flint birch
waxen patrol
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Fun story, i false banned 0 people and not one person claims I did either

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So my harsh judgement isn’t so harsh if it never has messed up a single player

flint birch
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hmmmmmmm...

wheat swallow
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I think it's fine to assume that using evidence and stuff, and if the person being accused thinks that assumption is wrong they can use their information to disprove that assumption

waxen patrol
wheat swallow
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I don't have much of a good stance on this, but what nagisa said seems reasonable

gleaming epoch
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what evidence could you reasonably give, though

waxen patrol
gleaming epoch
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nearly everything is server side logs, not client side

gleaming epoch
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for example this claim that they crashed 2 worlds, whereas they claim they only crashed 1

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they can only prove that if they happened to be screen recording at the time, no?

waxen patrol
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Typing something out, but world crashes are in logs

ancient jackal
# waxen patrol On what the crashing?

Bare in mind that I indirectly "crashed" a laggy ass server and Omega himself even admitted that that's complete accident and thats not enough to warren a ban.

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Other than that, no servers are crashed or severely harmed
were*

gleaming epoch
waxen patrol
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Oh I’m not even saying what you did or not, I’m just talking about the idea that mods must warn

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I wasn’t there to see you nor know the case so I can’t make a stance on it

ancient jackal
waxen patrol
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Ok so here’s how I’d do it if I were a current mod

Whoever it is has been seen spamming a known laggy spell particle, people in chat are complaining and reporting them. The world they are on crashes so they’re now on another world. More people are seen complaining about said user and they’re proven (either I see or video is shown) of them doing it. World crashes again. Either this repeats or doesn’t, but at this point I’d say it’s enough to at least consider a ban. The player is doing something mundane, but the player must also see in chat the people complaining, notice their spells delaying, and the server ending. At that point they cannot make an argument of not knowing. They can still argue it was not on purpose.

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It’s not just a case of caused some lag you’re banned, it’s a case of users experience being disturbed and someone continuing to do it knowing this.

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I have no idea how I ended up in 2.0.2 constructive feedback mega thread

agile rivet
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all under the assumption that they were doing this during a server crash twice from what i gather they only are aware of it happening once

waxen patrol
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Again, idk of the original case

agile rivet
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so either they are lying which i find unlikely seeing as how much trouble theyve gone through to discuss this

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or there is a a bad assumption being made

waxen patrol
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Also I will say, unpopular opinion but who the hell cares if you get banned, we aren’t hypixel wiping you

Just appeal and come back in a day or whatever (this is my opinion and not how I ever enforced stuff obv’

ancient jackal
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The point is that if ^ is not the case, then player reports would be it. As a suspect, it is my right to actually knowing the evidence of me crashing their game, like a video shown. If not, theres not really a way to tell whether I deliberately crash the server or not.

I've appealed

waxen patrol
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we obv wouldn’t count it against you if we revoke a ban, it’s been done before

waxen patrol
ancient jackal
gleaming epoch
ancient jackal
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^
I've explained in details and timelines on where I've been and what I've done.

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Also @waxen patrol this is from one player's evidence

2023-02-18_01.16.47.png
waxen patrol
ancient jackal
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completely vague, claiming me to be lagging their game when im not even in front and looking at him, and im just moving foward to the trade market npc lol.

gleaming epoch
waxen patrol
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Not entirely, just more importantly

ancient jackal
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I'm just saying, if theres any video shown me deliberately following someone and intended to "crash" their game I'd like to apologize with a long essay and to think of what I've actually done, but if its just some self-centered and vexatious individual coming up whining about someone lagging their game and get them reported, nah.

waxen patrol
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Following someone would fall under harassment and is significantly harder to prove

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And as such significantly easier to disprove

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Like I genuinely don’t know if wynn stores spell history. I honestly imagine it doesn’t since it would be a ton of data for almost no purpose

gleaming epoch
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trift and chaos explosion

ancient jackal
gleaming epoch
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so maybe but it probably drops the logs at some point

ancient jackal
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idk if black holes works like that but if cherry bomb works with the same animation, everyone who plays it would easily be punished

gleaming epoch
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imo if it was just the blocks then ice snake mage would easily get you banned for the same lag

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especially now that ice snake is actually viable spell spam for arcanist

ancient jackal
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Ice snake is less likely to cause that much lag, I've also played it. Its not entitiy, its just particles.

gleaming epoch
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ice snake is falling block entities

ancient jackal
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also if the server logs would be available, it would likely showing me to have myself to be in the detlas and cinfras area the most, and I did not "follow" someone to crash their game.

fallen lantern
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Justice for notorious flippa!

midnight nacelle
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alright so i just wanna do the right thing here to prevent this exact issue from repeating itself, is whoever is capable of making black hole smokebomb less laggy aware of how laggy it is right now and if not how do i get the attention of those persons. do i bug report it? has someone here on CT or Mod team already notified them?

ember holly
warm zephyr
ember holly
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it's armor stands with an item on their head

waxen patrol
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^ yep

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It really should be optimized, it looks nice but it sucks for fps

midnight nacelle
# warm zephyr yes lol

i asked if i should bug report it or if they have already been notified and got a "yes" though i do assume you are saying they have been notified

waxen patrol
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The thing is ct / mods don’t decide the stuff for spells. They can give lots of feedback and input, but they can’t change it

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the black hole really should just be done with smoke particles, it would be less cool but so much more helpful

midnight nacelle
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yeah i figured that was a dev thing which is why i wanted to ask if they were aware of it

warm zephyr
midnight nacelle
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it would be nice if those effects got optimized in the near future

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surprised nothing this big came out of it until now (unless i am mistaken) that effect has been like that since assassin's debut in the beta

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better fixed late than never like

waxen patrol
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I mentioned ice snake being risky

midnight nacelle
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ive definitely had some frame drops from ice snake myself
especially while playing snake nest arcanist saltroll

fiery portal
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It would be the most a flaw from the developers on having it released or not considering fixing the issue once reported.
hard mfing AGREE

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it really feels more like an effect of not taking a very important (and recognized, mind you) issue as seriously as one should've

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call it "exploiting dev oversight" or w/e but this dude speaking facts and that counts for something

strong lantern
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This is so much to go back and read, someone got banned for casting spells? Seems like some extra context is being left out, can we get a short tldr on what actually happened and then move on

warm zephyr
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no

pliant current
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@ancient jackal have you tried this

Screenshot_2023-02-21_at_12.42.10_PM.png
ember holly
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Using it normally isn't the issue, it's intentionally spamming it in a full server or something in Detlas

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and trying to crash the server

ancient jackal
ancient jackal
ancient jackal
# strong lantern This is so much to go back and read, someone got banned for casting spells? Seem...

It would be so complicated to have the full story explained in such a short paragraph but basically I was banned for intentionally lagging or crashing the server, and I was accused by an individual who claimed to have 2 servers crashed in such a short amount of time while I'm truly innocent, and the only server I've crashed was in a different scenario where its already lagging, where I asked a moderator that in person, doing that is not enough to warren a ban for "crashing servers". Therefore, it would likely to be a player report against me for lagging their game out, which for me, especially when its so vague to judge someone's intention and consider them to cause lag on a user's client, my stance is that the punishment is unjustified. Obviously there's more context involved. If you want to know more, I can explain it in dms later.

Bare in mind that this is all my words, and to achieve fairness, the server side may also have their own stance and evidences. However, up till this moment, I still cannot get my eyes to see any that actually showing me deliberately crashing a server / a player.

sage moon
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I think there should be some changes to make the warrior tree more flexible. Boiling Blood should be a Fallen ability, Flyby jab should be a battle monk ability, and it should only cost 1 AP

ember holly
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Whats funny there’s no rules saying making an individual who has a potato pc lagging is considered to be a bannable offense, and players are only obliged to follow the rules written on the rules page, not the rules imaginable by anyone or the staff team.

even Omega in person said that’s complete accident and should not be enough to result a ban.
I wouldn't say its bannable. If I was a moderator, I'd probably kick you with a warn not to continue, and only escalate if you did.

you guys are basically putting the blame onto a player when it’s your own fault, that’s quite tragic.
You could make this argument for literally anything. Oh no guys, people make knives and knives can hurt other people, so its not my fault if i hurt other people using this weapon that you are allowed to sell me. I get where you're coming from, and we need to fix it so it doesn't harm the servers, but it's also just kind of a goofy point.

And no, you did not even read the whole context, he did not “crash servers” instead it’s likely to be a player report against him

Player reports against someone causing them to crash is so vague and can easily written off as true even with bad evidences. No players are responsible for someone’s bad pc, it’s not obliged for a player to be “that” considerate in playing a video game
Sure, but I am pretty sure it was lowering TPS substantially.

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If you are spamming spells in detlas and its lower server tps substantially, and a staff member requests you stop or delivers a warning in some form (not a ban, I do not agree with something that could so easily be unintentional or performed unwittingly being awarded such an extreme punishment)

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and you continued to do so, I mean, that seems like something eligible of a punishment

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Yeah, we gotta do something about the black hole creating so much lag that repeatedly firing 3 smoke bombs can tank that world's performance, but until then you can just use common sense that intentionally being a living lag machine or continuing to do so against staff request is Not A Good Thing.

sonic ether
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tl;dr just add a rule against deliberately crashing servers and rely on moderator discretion

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maybe warn/short first ban (hour to day) em

ember holly
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I am literally saying i disagree with banning someone for this without warning

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gorgeous YEAH I ACKNOWLEDGED THAT

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yeah its not stated in the rules

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what i said is that if you are doing it and a staff says stop doing it and you keep doing it after they deliver a warning then you are elligible to be punished

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ok then we agree

ancient jackal
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And I have included timestamps in the appeal and this convo, the only server I managed to "crash" is a server with super low TPS that my friend was in, and was lagging so hard already. The other person who was blabbering about 2 servers crashed subsequently has no evidence that it was me doing it, and some individuals actually believed in it and thinking that Im the one who crashed it with black holes.

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One individual comes up with this screenshot, literally act as "media framing" and made others think of its actually me crashing 2 servers in a row but I didn't.

Yet that screenshot might actually due to other reasons, I've been having bad internet connection lately for a certain period everyday, and the message in the screenshot pops up when you are unable to connect to a server anyways.

(The server didn't actually crash as this message even pops up when my friend is completely fine in the wc that it says went down)

IMG_20230222_102309.jpg Screenshot_2023_0222_102707.jpg
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I try to not direspect anyone but some vexatious and self-centered individuals keeps on whining about their games being crashed without proper evidence, especially towards me is just unreasonable.

waxen patrol
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The moderators also must be able to keep the server running in a ethically, sustainably, and reasonable manner. The more rules you add the more people who will try and loophole them and say the game is too restrictive. You already have this with mob farming. Once again, crashing servers falls under bug abuse (or exploiting if done enough.) this is in the rules.

The moderators act in good faith despite what people believe. New rules and edits of rules take damn time and it’s also unfair to ad a rule and enforce it same day, so you need to spread the word a change happened.

Im of course a biased source, but mods never really care for power as it gives nothing. Mods get to ban people. That’s about it. There’s no power to be sought after.

You are 100% entitled to know what you did to get banned as well to ask why it’s the rule. For the last day or so you keep making what seem to be either intentionally dishonest messages to throw as much fault as possible or just flat out making claims about stuff you don’t have any proof on.

Also. Again. All bans are appealable. I am aware of the person in particular wanting to say they are innocent which is fine I’m just talking in general.

waxen patrol
signal gulch
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You're saying "oh they only get to ban people" as if that's not one of the most consequential actions you can take on any multiplayer server...

ancient jackal
# waxen patrol Also again idk enough about your case but the errors there do 99% of the time ap...

There is now a problem where undersea internet cables were broken for unknown reasons and Asia areas had their internet connection badly hampered at times. The notice "The server you were on before went down" will appear on the left even though it is perfectly fine and people are actually playing on it if your internet connection is unable to sync the server. This problem has been bothering me for the past month or so, especially when I try to connect to foreign Minecraft servers that are not in Asia. And based on his appearance, the man who sent the ss on the left appears to be an Asian player. Moreover, you appeared to think that the screenshot depicted a server crash.

signal gulch
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Bans allow you to control who gets to participate in the server. You have the proverbial keys to the walled garden. With that, you get to dictate what is or what is not acceptable. That's not a power that you can just dismiss. Hence, there should be oversight over its use.

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Even now, flippa's case is very easily dismissed as "just some rantings of a banned player". It's happening right here on this thread. You, the moderators, not only get to decide who to ban, but also the validity of anything that people say.

ancient jackal
# waxen patrol The moderators also must be able to keep the server running in a ethically, sust...

How do you justify the statement of “crashing servers falls under bug abuse (or exploiting if done enough.) this is in the rules.” as correct when there are clearly no guidelines for it?
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Okay, but something doesn't feel right about your opening statement: "The more rules you add the more people who will try and loophole them and say the game is too restrictive" Especially coming from a former moderator. Rules are a set of instructions that specify what people should and should not do. Since I believe moderators were at least informed that only players who have broken the rules should result in a punishment, not a set of "makeup rules, self-defined rules, or assumptions," having more rules in place to protect the server would not only better protect it, but it would also limit the power of staff members when they decide to punish a player. You don’t see a city having no rules or less rules just because of a group of people whining about “freedom and democracy”.
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It would be too powerful for the moderators to claim that anything is regarded to be in the rules when it is obviously not specified on the rules page, regardless of the player's behavior or intention. Not only players are obliged to follow the rules, mods, or a staff team as a whole, are required to respect the players and obliged to agree that no punishments should be easily issued to one individual. You said once more that "bug abuse (or exploiting if done enough)" would be sufficient for the issuance of a ban. First of all, casting spells is not a bug abuse, no exploits were involved in the process and it is purely game mechanics. If the server is incapable of handling a given amount of particles, there is no way a player or any individual should be responsible, as they do not know the limits of the server that can handle them and the ways the server operates. When the mods or an individual staff member come up and say “hey you are not allowed to do it despite its vague or not stated in the rules” and ban somebody without any warnings, you know it's unjustified, and almost nobody would consider it as a fair punishment.
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I also noticed that you seemed to believe that banning someone without warning is a good idea. While this is true in some situations, such as when a player engages in flying, hacking, or duping, which are all covered in the rules page, if the server decides to ban someone for behavior that is not covered by the rules, moderators are required to warn the player and explain why this is wrong. The gamer should undoubtedly be banned if they chose to carry on after being warned and for not respecting the staff members.

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As you stated, you are a biased source when you claim that "mods never really care for power." Without intending to offend, what might and can players do if they were wrongfully banned? As practically all of the server-side records in this instance point to wrongdoing, the gamers who claimed to be innocent can only serve as a witness against themselves, when the moderators refuse to look into or present proof that a player has harmful intentions toward other players or the server. Consider a scenario in which a suspect is accused of murdering a person who was not killed, despite the fact that no evidence was presented to the court and the judiciary was not at all convincing, the suspect is jailed anyway. If word of this situation spreads, the public would not care about who was at fault because they would only be focused on the injustice of the verdict.

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The fact that all the words I’ve mentioned in these 2 or 3 days, over 5000 at minimum, the validity of them, are all decided by the mods, not the players. Despite how the players feel, and what viewpoint and stance they are at, the final decision is all by the moderators and the server. It is not about “mods never really care about powers”, it's about they already owning all the power to take control of one player’s freedom and fate. Not emphasized, but players cannot get themselves banned, or unbanned, nor know the evidence of what they got banned. With this mentioned, it comes to the importance of a set of rules being made to not only limits the illegitimate actions from the players but also limit the power of the moderators. In real life, a parliament is a legislative body of government in both current politics and history. A modern parliament often performs three tasks: it represents the electorate, passes laws, and conducts hearings and investigations to check on the executive branch, limiting the power of one government and preventing dictatorship with too much power.
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^ I learned this in a sociology lesson, not just full of blabbering without shreds of evidence

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‍If all of my statements were shown to be incorrect or untrue, I would never be able to prove my innocence because the server had the majority of the evidence and it was never made public.

Your advice to "just appeal and come back in a day or whatever" (Although I know it's just a recommendation), I'd like to say that I kind of disagree with it because there is no point for a user who wants to prove their innocence to readily admit something based solely on accusations and no supporting evidence. Additionally, in my opinion, if the server ultimately determines that I am innocent, it will be clear that wrongful bans do occur, and the server may be able to improve its moderating practices going forward.

pastel fox
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2.0.2 constructive feedback? More like Complaining about Moderation

ancient jackal
signal gulch
# pastel fox 2.0.2 constructive feedback? More like Complaining about Moderation

This is exactly what I mean when I say moderators have all the power when it comes to framing what is and is not accepted behavior, even when that behavior is valid. By banning someone, you can just explain away their entire side of the argument as "rantings or complaints". That you are trying to make it seem like a nothing burger power is disingenuous.

distant epoch
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so i stopped looking at this thread for a bit cause i felt like i really couldn’t contribute to this whole thing as from what i know the lag issue has been acknowledged and i have no control over the ban and can only voice my opinion which i have

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but could someone catch me up on what’s been happening here

distant epoch
# signal gulch Bans allow you to control who gets to participate in the server. You have the pr...

maybe i’m just not understanding your take but i where you say there should be oversight over bans there literally is? we have mod managers who will oversee mod actions and if they notice anything strange they will look into it, and above that there’s the admins who literally own the server and have final say on anything, though they are busy with mostly running the game hence why we exist to take that burden off their shoulders. “just being able to ban” i would say is brushing it off a little too easily but it really is not something we can or would take advantage of when there are so many ways it could end badly. either way, none of the mods on the team even think to try things like that, because management and trial processes weed out people who would try, leaving people who act in generally good faith.

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to be honest, if anyone comes after me with whatever criticism or even just plain harassment i try to think more carefully about it, remove my role from the equation and respond or stand up for myself as a normal person because i genuinely do not want to ever let my power get in the way of anything and end up on any sort of power trip. not just because it looks bad and would end poorly for me but because i hate people who would do that. if another mod stepped in to deal with what they saw as harassment or otherwise undue comments then sure, but i would stop it if i didn’t feel like anything wrong was being done to me.

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i can’t speak for everyone on the team but i’m perfectly fine with providing insights on what i do here and why, but sometimes we get criticism without trying to understanding why we do certain things or otherwise false, and it gets irritating to see.

ancient jackal
# distant epoch to be honest, if anyone comes after me with whatever criticism or even just plai...

I respect your dedication towards the server and I have nothing personal towards any individual. like

With my information and position in hand, I'm just kind of wanting to debate some facts and right or wrongs. I don't mean to harass anyone. Additionally, I believe that making a statement like "Bans enable you to control who gets to participate in the server." is going a bit too far in terms of criticizing the staff team. The point I want to make is that something that is not expressly stated in the rules, and just some wordings or a definition from one or a few staff members, is not sufficient to ban someone because this would be too strong given their authority.

I'll reiterate that, to a large extent, anyone who has been warned by a staff member and does not cease their behavior, even if it is not prohibited by the rules, should face punishment because, if the behavior is serious enough for moderators to warn you about it, you should already be aware of what is happening. But in my case (I can be biased toward taking the side of the suspect) a warning is sufficient to let me know that my actions have begun to obstruct someone, and I would be expected that keep on doing it is no good.

You are a good moderator and based on your personality and chats, and at least from what I could tell, I don't believe you did anything wrong. Even in this particular instance, you gave me a thorough explanation of your point of view after I explained what had happened and what I had done. And that's great because it could clarify a lot of misunderstandings and reduce criticism of the staff as a whole or at least of one particular person. I truly hope that everyone here does not send "hate" towards the staff members and actually giving out some evidences or standpoints if you think their statements are wrong, even though I still do not feel justified for the punishment imposed on me.

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Also @distant epoch Not just the regulations may need to be updated or renewed. I feel that the rules should surely be enforced or at the very least mentioned if the server determines that someone is lagging someone else's computer or if the server should result in a ban. Although assuming someone's purpose can be difficult, I think it would be great if the rules were clearly defined. And I already sense that this might be challenging.

The second concern is actually unrelated to my situation, but I would like to know if pricing guidelines for the channel #💰trade_market and perhaps something that was proposed, a tm helper, would be enforced. A person approached a few days ago or yesterday and attempted to market their item for a wildly inflated price (a bad hadal for 4stx). And when someone tried to tell him in a kind way that his item is overpriced and giving him an estimated value of that item, the person replied "do not care", "if you don't like it, then don't buy it and don't comment on it". If I recall it correctly you were also engaged in that conversation, I'm quite certain.

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On the basis of that, I'd like to propose a set of rules or instructions for players new to this channel regarding how to respond to someone's opinion on both ends. As you can see, people enjoy discussing prices on that channel apparently without cause. I can't say whether it's good or bad, but speaking for myself, I would like to share my pricing because if someone truly listened, they would avoid being ridiculed by people who are quite obsessed with the subjects and prices. Additionally, this would stop conflicts from arising.

I hope these would also be taken into consideration although the ideas seems primitive yet.

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god damn I have too much free time after finishing assignments

grave thunder
ancient jackal
distant epoch
# ancient jackal I respect your dedication towards the server and I have nothing personal towards...

first off, thanks for the in depth response, it really does help to have a more calm and organized approach to these discussions, and makes everyone feel a bit better about handling it.

i do agree of course that a warning for something not stated should be followed up on with a ban if it’s continued, that’s a system in some way everywhere. the point of contention is that you did not get a warning but an immediate ban, which on the mod side as far as i can see is that you were doing it for long enough that it should have been obvious that you should have stopped doing it and would fall under common sense, while from your side it was unintentional to cause trouble for others. apologies if you have clarified your attempts to get this across in an appeal and i haven’t read or just forgotten that, but it seems like that’s the best you can do. perhaps we can clarify the rules more to add things like lagging or otherwise harming others’ experience on the server, even if it is somewhat covered by other rules it doesn’t hurt to add some hard text if we get a good way to word it.

distant epoch
# ancient jackal ^ Also <@352118202404306944> Not just the regulations may need to be updated or ...

yeah i did get into that conversation, and it was mostly left at “yeah it’s annoying to deal with people like that but they can be left to never have their item bought or naturally end up lowering it once they realize.” adding rules on interactions just doesn’t sit right with me, but i guess we can see? and yeah we are working on implementing effectively the same thing as tm helper, some behind the scenes things need to be finished up first but i will try to let everyone know asap when i have access to the information and clearance to talk about it all publicly.

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it does suck that a lot of price related obsession leads pretty quickly to toxicity and flame wars, we’re hoping what we’re doing will eventually help to calm it down a bit

strong lantern
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I like how 2.02 added some nice changes to assassin

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It would be cool to add a way to change the skin of night-cloaked dagger

distant epoch
strong lantern
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I agree it actively makes me not want to carry more than 1 weapon because I feel it breaks immersion pretty hard but that might just be for me

lunar token
distant epoch
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i just skill issue and try to fight with my level 49 ws bow saltroll

lunar token
distant epoch
lunar token
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also unpopular statement but does it really make take that much effort to use any other archetype

pastel fox
lunar token
signal gulch
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the problem is that even played perfectly, summoner (or any of the shaman archetypes, tbh) pales in comparison to others (warrior, assassin, and ofc god archer)

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like, if you're going to bother putting in that much effort, you might as well do it on a class that will be much more impactful

lunar token
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but what if I like to play shaman?

signal gulch
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skill issue

lunar token
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At least I'll be having fun then.

signal gulch
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i have a level 106 and a level 105 shaman. I want the class to be good. Unfortunately, it just isn't, and I'm not going to delude myself that it is.

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but if delusion is your opium then enjoy it as much as you want

lunar token
#

I'm not even being delusional about it, I just like playing shaman. That's, just about it to be frank.

#

And yes, I am aware it's been bad since, well, idk maybe like 1.20 I think.

ember holly
#

KB CCI has always existed explodinghead2

lunar token
#

I’m not perfect on my knowledge, I make mistakes :(

strong lantern
#

Imo shaman should have the ability to crowd control even the non cc bosses. Aura holding mobs in place it almost the only really defensive thing shamans can do and half of the bosses invalidate that. Imo is the worst part about playing shamans

fallen lantern
#

Whats CCI?

raw rover
#

crowd control immunity

fallen lantern
#

Ah yes

ember holly
strong lantern
#

Shaman vs Greg feels awful and bosses like Greg being cci makes zero sense imo

dusk scroll
#

Omw to keep Greg Perma airborne with meteor/uppercut

strong lantern
#

Like have a extremely mobile boss with zero way to slow him down

#

I stand by the best designed boss is the giant robot rat at li. He doesn’t needlessly make the player less powerful by randomly being cci while also having engaging arena spells and a fun cycle of do dmg then purposely dodge for a second then go back to dmg again. It’s a very expressive boss fight while not being brain dead easy.

strong lantern
ember holly
#

If anything I'd imagine they would have blindness immune, which is not a detriment but to prevent them from walking off and despawning

#

We had to put some thought into arena design so it wouldn't despawn when it wasn't meant to

fallen lantern
#

Whats the diference between resistance and immunity?

raw rover
fallen lantern
#

Thx for lmk.

strong lantern
#

Greg isn’t effects by uppercut tho ever so that doesn’t make any sense

#

Wynn not explaining any of this to the player is terrible design imo

raw rover
strong lantern
#

Imo terrible design to not explain stuff like that to the player, it’s insane players are expected to find this out by themselves by asking randoms on the discord

waxen patrol
#

you think this is bad? base attack speed is like the most important multiplier (probably) in spell calculations yet the game tells you NOWHERE that it matters at all.

#

You don't get told once that super fast and super slow do different spell damage

ember holly
#

You don't really need to know the difference between immunity and resist in a casual playthrough

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If you see it isn't working against a mob that should probably be enough

waxen patrol
#

(Also it isn't really used much before higher levels)

untold cloak
waxen patrol
#

your melee dps is useless for spell calc for that matter

untold cloak
waxen patrol
untold cloak
#

Because that should also be whats used for spells (before spell conversion/spell damage%)

waxen patrol
#

Nope, its something more like (I don't actually know it at all) Damage roll x damage multiplier of spell + raw spell, spell % x attack speed multiplier

#

Idk where some of the extra multipliers fit like focus, winded, marks, etc

#

theres a damage formula out there, i just don't know where it is

#

actually @pure sparrow are you sure attack speed goes there? I thought attack speed effected raw spell

untold cloak
waxen patrol
#

I'm talking about spells, which have a huge multiplier based on attack speed (super slow is like 0.51 or something and super fast is like 4.5)

#

The average melee damage is completely disregarded for your spell damage, why would spell check melee

#

It only does a roll on damage range, then goes through the formula

#

The average dps listed accounts for stats on the weapon (I think)

untold cloak
untold cloak
pure sparrow
waxen patrol
#

melee does roll damage, I'm saying if its like 1-3 it does not roll 1-3 for listed dps it will average it at 2

pure sparrow
#

That would so broken if super fast items scaled raw spell

untold cloak
#

Yeah but thats the same for average . . .

waxen patrol
#

That is why I said "Melee damge is damage average range"

untold cloak
#

And you can use the average dps number to get average damage for both melee and spells

waxen patrol
#

except that the multipliers on spells aren't equal to attack speed numbers

#

super fast isn't 0.25s attack delay (this number is wrong disregard it)

untold cloak
waxen patrol
#

Pretty sure. Not positive.

pure sparrow
#

What are yall even arguing about

waxen patrol
#

I will double check

untold cloak
waxen patrol
pure sparrow
#

Spell damage is just base DPS * spell mult * ID bonuses and that jazz

pure sparrow
waxen patrol
#

Attack speeds & multipliers didn't change in 2.0 did they

pure sparrow
#

And that’s the “150% of your dps” written in ability descriptions

#

So you don’t really need to worry about attack speed mult or find out what it is unless you’re specifically playing melee, then you care about attack speed

pure sparrow
waxen patrol
#

ok then this is still accurate, 4 swings a second (max) is not equal to 4.3 damage multiplier which is why I was saying it isn't 1:1

a4d5cb50fdad5fe10acdc5eef02222fb.png
untold cloak
#

Makes sense actually . . . (I did not consider attack speed being tied to ticks)

waxen patrol
#

so ye, unless im missing something new its not 1:1

pure sparrow
#

In theory it should be 1:1 but in practice you have to worry about ticks and all that

waxen patrol
#

well i mean even at 20 tps this would not be 1:1 frozen

#

4.3 does not equal 5*4 (Max swings per second)

#

this is the wrong way of saying it

#

(100+300)/2 = 200*4= 800
((100+300)/2)*4.3 = 860

pure sparrow
#

Then the real attack speed would be able to reach 4.3 instead of being rounded to 4

waxen patrol
#

yeah until you get to normal attack speed

#

which is 10 ticks, so you would assume its 2.0, but its not. its 2.05 for whatever reason.

#

Super slow, normal, and super fast are the only ones that work cleanly divisible by 20 btw

pure sparrow
#

Yeah, since the game has a limited precision to ticks it only hits 2, can never hit the real 2.05 in theory

waxen patrol
#

40(0.51), 10(2.05), and 5(4.3) in particular

#

well I mean this is true but shouldn't they have made the spell multipliers as such then saltroll

pure sparrow
pure sparrow
waxen patrol
#

Very slow is 24 ticks

#

i meant that i can in my head do the math for 5 into 20 and such

lament shale
#

shaman players in 2.0 when they dont deal as much damage as warrior and archer (the class is clearly terrible

pure sparrow
#

So true we should buff shaman

Salted can make mask of the awakened cost 150 mana saved instead of 155!

waxen patrol
#

Slow is 16 ticks
Fast is 8 ticks
Very fast is 6 ticks

I mean these don't super easily in my head go in the formula

#

While how many times does 5 go in 20 does

pure sparrow
#

I don’t know what you’re describing at this point

waxen patrol
#

yeah

untold cloak
waxen patrol
pure sparrow
#

It’s 5/6?

lament shale
#

fo real ... the class should obviously be balanced around the heaviest hitting and most mobile archetypes in game

untold cloak
lament shale
#

what is ur point

#

ngl i didnt really come to here to argue i just wanted to leave a snarky comment

pure sparrow
#

Erm.... just purposefully spawn greater ones so you can use hymn of hate on greg

sage moon
#

oh nvm someone already brought it up and you responded

waxen patrol
#

exploding head emoji

sage moon
#

oh shit i didnt know it only meant melee and genuinely wasnt even used in spell dmg calculations

#

i have spread misinformation to a fellow wyncraftian

pure sparrow
#

What

#

It is used for spell damage calculations

#

It’s the “200% of your DPS” average DPS written on abilities and used for spell calcs

sage moon
#

and all the messages surrounding it

pure sparrow
#

I have no idea what they’re saying really

#

I would trust the damage formula though

#

No bias like (it was checked with IMs and zeer and the hppeng-wynn gang)

#

Any questions feel free to ask

strong lantern
#

How does explosion factor into all of this? I’ve really been wanting to make a collapse scarlet veil build the dmg feels so bad no matter what I try

sage moon
#

but it cant crit

strong lantern
#

That’s genuinely so sad

sage moon
#

ive tried for a while to make collapse sveil work but its pretty bad. the -eledefs are really really terrible for survivability and the benefit isnt even that good. Not to mention melee as a whole is really bad, especially on warrior

waxen patrol
#

-ele def % is useless just get +raw and make your base def 0

waxen patrol
# strong lantern That’s genuinely so sad

also its not sad, for one its free damage, and for two it deals your melee damage again uncapped to an unlimited mount of mobs.

Scarlet veil also makes it activate on hit, which means if you hit 5 mobs it causes 5 explosions (Just know the explosions cannot cause explosions)

sage moon
waxen patrol
sage moon
#

ok time to balance out my eledefs to they perfectly equal 0

#

just not feasible if trying to make a good build

#

and explosions spread damage to other mobs is pretty useless against most bosses, and is obviously completely useless against greg

#

not to mention (non-archer) melee is just generally unviable in the first place (against greg)

#

Sveil had use when tcc was the most difficult raid since the explosions could hit all the parts of the colossus, but even then it was used more with like singu than collapse

#

fact is, the downsides exceptionally outweigh the benefits of using it. So no, its not "free damage." Much better off using other items for a hybrid build or going pure spell and taking advantage of discombobulate

strong lantern
#

My best build was before 2.0 but it was sveil apoc greed and stealing. It was the most fun tank build I’ve ever made. Defense nerfs killed it though sadly

#

I’m glad someone is here to stop nagisa from gaslighting me about wanting explosion to do more/have better scaling.

signal gulch
#

lmao shaman's never getting buffed huh

lunar token
sage moon
inner elk
# strong lantern My best build was before 2.0 but it was sveil apoc greed and stealing. It was th...

Stat nerfs also killed all other forms of gameplay diversity like
Tbh def/agi/int nerfs weren't even a bad thing (they were pretty justified with the addition of abilities)
What makes 0 sense is the fact that dex/str got no nerfs -> 10x damage creep, you would think they'd be nerfed for the exact same reason as all the other stats
Now dex and strength builds are disproportionately strong and all other gameplay is worthless, WFA went from good to basically trolling

thick jewel
#

WFA/FA were never good in anything except tanking

inner elk
thick jewel
#

trickster is kind of playable

inner elk
#

Actually true, funny that trickster is a better tank than paladin

lunar token
thick jewel
#

LOL so true
to trickster being better than pala

lunar token
thick jewel
#

pala is literally only viable in wars or hybrid (fallen paladin/palamonk) and doesn't even do all that good

lunar token
thick jewel
#

hadal saltroll

lunar token
#

hadal summoner is a viable play strategy, though now you just need loads of spell dmg boost from armor and trinkets because of the skill issue nerf-

near stone
#

is assassin supposed to have the ability to infinitely stack damage by dash stacking?

pure sparrow
#

It’s a bug

near stone
pure sparrow
#

Though make of it what you will

near stone
#

1 tap greg

#

it is possible now, the only class that can do it i think

strong lantern
#

i like the idea of assassin having infinite stacking dmg i feel if anyone should have a lore accurate one shot it should be assassin

pastel fox
#

Not really balanced though now is it

strong lantern
#

no but its based

thick jewel
#

the real assassin was here all along

pliant current
near stone
#

It should cap at like max 5 dashes or smth, would be a cool side ability or you could even make it a 1cost AT node

untold cloak
pure sparrow
#

It's an old bug actually

#

Basically if you cast dash multiple times in the air, then the damage from dancing blade stacks

near stone
#

and then the next enemy you dash into, however many consecutive dashes without touching the ground, will deal that amount of damage instantly

dusky widget
pure sparrow
raw rover
#

just call it a feature

dusky widget
#

dont patch it its actually really fun 😭

gusty egret
#

simple fix

#

buff archer

sage moon
#

i think it’d be smarter to nerf shaman tbh

sonic ether
#

buff every class to the same level 👍

delicate gale
#

its honestly so simple

#

game balancers hate this simple trick

dusk scroll
sonic ether
#

no

dusk scroll
#

yes

sonic ether
#

nerfing would decrease the classes strength which would be bad

dusk scroll
#

nerf every class to 1.20 dps

delicate gale
#

nerf everything to pre 1.20.3 dps

sonic ether
#

nerf everything to pre 0.0 dps

#

nerf everything to 1.0 shaman dps saltroll

inner elk
pastel fox
#

Indeed

#

Honestly, GMA was pushing it with 200k dps in 1.20

fringe perch
#

now 200k dps is like mid

pastel fox
ember holly
tawdry root
ember holly
#

No I play a shaman and it's fine

tawdry root
# ember holly No I play a shaman and it's fine

It's "fine" ? Why don't you make a poll with the community to state about that one ? It's been months since players are crying about the shaman's state because you guys kept nerfing it over and over, each updates

#

I wouldn't take my time to write it down if it was fine.

#

And you know yourself that im actually speaking facts, right ?

#
  • theres not a single game that nerf every classes just to make one perform better.
pastel fox
#

I’ve hear that Shaman isn’t in a great place compared to other classes and I don’t doubt that, but Wynn is not actively trying to nerf all other classes to make one better

tawdry root
#

Every classes got nerfed, just to profit the assassin

#
  • If the shaman is already in a bad state since months why do they keep nerfing it, instead of buffing it ?
pastel fox
#

Every class needed a nerf, they don’r want dps at the levels its at right now

tawdry root
#

Like, actually, do they have any excuse not to buff the shaman ?
If they have, i just would like to know why my favourite class is bad since a long time

#

If it has a reason, then it's okay

fallen lantern
#

I don't see problems with nerfing other classes but shaman does feel underwhelming.

dusk scroll
tawdry root
#

It truly is, and everyone is complaining about it since past 1.2

#

Which was, a long time ago

pastel fox
fallen lantern
#

Mage is at least fun with arcanist or wacky with ice snake gunner but shaman is just ...

pastel fox
#

Shaman was legit the best designed class of all of them on 2.0 launch

fallen lantern
radiant orchid
#

shaman's problems aren't pure dps related
also, apparently assassin was handled first because it was in such a worse state

tawdry root
pastel fox
pastel fox
fallen lantern
#

shamn got the heals going but I want mge to have best heals (Im mage main)

radiant orchid
fallen lantern
#

or just nerf abso and overdrive even more so other relics see more use. Buff panic zealot base damagelike

tawdry root
radiant orchid
#

no clue lol

pastel fox
#

Some of the nerfs to shaman were needed, they are still trying to bring all classes down and in line with eachother, but some weren’t needed at all like why

tawdry root
#

it's like slapping a kid and slapping him back because he complained bout it

fallen lantern
#

shaman dps is always worse than other classes

pastel fox
#

Keep in mind that CT doesn’t like that endgame player dps is above 200k

#

So in general they want to bring dps down

fallen lantern
#

not even etw

pastel fox
fallen lantern
#

yeah yeah

tawdry root
# pastel fox Some of the nerfs to shaman were needed, they are still trying to bring all clas...

Okay, let's speak facts : they define around where every classes should be.
If the players get too much dps, why don't they just cap it at 200k ?

Why is nerfing a class all the way down compared to others when buffing a class to be better than the others classes even considered a solution ?

Like, if they want to cap the dps and bring every classes down, why are they just buffing the hell out of assassin ?

fallen lantern
#

i just dont like how superior overdrive and abso are to other relics

pastel fox
#

If they could cap dps they would’ve

tawdry root
#

they "can't" ?

fallen lantern
#

hard caping dps is not a thing or good solution either

pastel fox
#

Yea

#

Literally never seen it done anywhere in any game without severely hampering gameplay experience

fallen lantern
#

unless a game hits 64 bit system number something somehting limit

pastel fox
#

Yea, but thats more of just a legit system thing and not a game dev thing

#

Literally never heard of a hard dps cap in any game

#

I’ve played multiple MMOs at hardcore endgame level btw

fallen lantern
#

devs just can increase health of every mob to account for the dps creep saltroll

ember holly
pastel fox
#

Or that

#

Either way no, dps capping isn’t a thing

ember holly
fiery portal
#

unironically i think shaman needs more nodes

#

ct need to do what they did for assassin, but for shaman

pastel fox
pure sparrow
#

Shaman getting summoner and acolyte nerfs for the morbillionth patch in a row is funny

#

But realistically the game is still a big mess of power creep post-2.0 and bringing in other bloated baselines like archer or warrior to compare damage to just makes damage numbers even higher

strong lantern
#

What does CT consider “healthy dps”?

gusty egret
#

5

#

(and a half)

dusk scroll
#

mage dps is healthy 💪

fiery portal
lunar token
ember holly
strong lantern
#

I wish when people talk about dps they would also talk about what it takes to get to “optimal” dps. Like it takes much longer and is much scarier to get 99% corrupted vs getting 7 focus vs the time it takes to get all of your summons out as shaman. I feels like the “dps” conversation is always based just around the # and not the situation it takes to get to “max dmg”

#

Partially why I think classes like fallen/summoner/shade step should inherently have more dps than other archetypes because of the situations it takes to get to that point

#

Idk how to touch mage I’m very uninformed when it comes to that class

fiery portal
lament shale
#

2.0.2 shaman changes:

multi totem damage nerfs- good
multi totem healing nerfs- not good
summoner nerfs- kinda not good
vengeful spirit move- good

#

although I haven’t actually tested how good summoner is now on live because they reverted most of the invigorating wave nerfs from beta when the patch released

vocal fiber
#

Don't forget blood sorrow changes

lament shale
#

think it’s also pretty important for people to realize that: shaman wasn’t the only class that got changed this update and it’s not like devs are for some reason just targeting your favorite class 💀

#

it’s not like solely shaman was nerfed; boltslinger arrow storm literally lost 200% of its multiplier, fireworks/comet for warrior are no longer instant versus CCI which is a massive damage decrease and the change to whirlwind

lament shale
vocal fiber
#

Real

lunar token
lament shale
#

still a fundamentally shit ability though

lunar token
lament shale
#

nop

#

u r right

untold cloak
#

Because if you would just nerf every archetype/class to the same dps you would just use the one that has the best secondaty effects

nimble mulch
#

Well for endgame that is

thick jewel
#

jasmine bloom:
satsujin:
more marked:

fiery portal
#

well imo shadestepper and acrobat tree feels a little too strict rn. especially with shade where you have to sacrifice the first -spin attack cost if you wanna take all shade nodes + black hole

i think trickster tree is pretty fine compared to the other two trees in terms of full ap cost

midnight nacelle
#

in comparison its not bad but tricksters ap costs are also a bit pricey, it takes like 40 AP to get to the final clone damage node. For example of a comparison from another archetype, Paladin only takes about 30 to get to the cheaper uppercut node past second chance

#

though that could just be paladins inherently flawed design that makes it better to snag for side passives on another archetype rather than be worth playing the full archetype at all saltroll

fiery portal
#

paladin could do with a few more nodes. it'd be a good opportunity for adding interesting abilities that'll make the archetype less boring to play

a good example is trickster bamboozle with how it gives the player options in combat instead of going with the same repetitive gameplay (in theory at least lol)

#

all in all i like the whole "let's add more nodes" thing they did. it fixed a lot of stuff and i think it's a good direction

midnight nacelle
#

yeah, though i do hope some straight up useless warrior nodes get attention soon (heavy impact flyby jab collide martyr etc)

#

i heard there was some ideas in the works for martyr which is nice

fallen lantern
#

Counter ambidexterous in question ( I use it but its almost nonfunctional with 83 agi)

paper zealot
#

My preferred approach would be to make Counter 50% / with ambidextrous 100% on every hit, not just when dodging, but obviously removing its damage denial

inner elk
distant epoch
inner elk
distant epoch
#

idk something like
counter: 50% of your agility dodges will proc a counter, dodging now reduces damage taken by 50% rather than 90%
ambidextrous: same but for 100% of dodges

inner elk
#

at that point it feels like counter + mantle would be best on ... fallen, which is silly from a gameplay perspective

distant epoch
#

yeah that would be more fallen mixing being stupid wouldn’t it

inner elk
# fiery portal paladin could do with a few more nodes. it'd be a good opportunity for adding in...

I'd rather see existing abilities reworked since most of them are straight trash, some examples:

Rejuvenating skin is garbage since it heals less the more damage reduction you have
Provoke is basically 'cheaper war scream' for 2 AP, because you need Taunt anyways
Mantle + stronger mantle (3 AP) lasts for 1.25 when being constantly hit (20s cooldown)
Shield strike/sparkling hope BWAHAHAHAA
Second chance is really only good with Hero but requires you to take all but one (1) paladin skills before it (which all suck)
Martyr has no functional use (the tank will never die first and 3s is too short)

robust frost
inner elk
robust frost
#

We considered dropping martyr for funkier stuff, (it was not worth it)
Cuz martyr actually procs twice
Once for second chance pop and the second time when you actually die

fiery portal
#

i wish i can give more input regarding balance in guild wars but i don't do those lol

inner elk
# fiery portal yeah honestly i get that second chance is supposed to be a failsafe for when you...

like this is exactly correct
There are 2 ways to tank: taunt mechanics or damage redirection
Taunt mechanics are currently garbage and got gutted as soon as they were playable, so I feel like this is just part of the head dev vision (taunt-based tanking will never exist)
The only way to redirect damage is Guardian ID, which also got gutted as soon as tanks started being played
Idk I know CT explicitly said they were trying to nerf damage/rebalance playstyles but it really doesn't feel that way 🤷‍♂️ I don't currently see a way for tanks to be playable that matches the staff vision

robust frost
inner elk
dusk scroll
#

thats what tank is supposed to do if there are other threatening mechanics to the dps classes which there are 0 if a tank can keep agro 100% of the time

robust frost
#

Well greg as the bombs, aura and skulls but in the end...

inner elk
robust frost
#

And its very nice to play with

fiery portal
inner elk
robust frost
#

Well, wynn in its core was mire designed around solo play

#

I think thats the main issue

inner elk
#

This is true lol, wynn isn't really an MMO it's just an RPG with multi player content

#

Which is why I expect it to be balanced the same way as similar "multiplayer RPGs" like FFXIV, which is to basically make every archetype DPS but with a different theme

fiery portal
#

honestly they can turn paladin to a proper support archetype like trickster (with diversion, at least), putting them in line with lightbender and acolyte as the support archetypes

#

i mean, it feels like that's the original plan 🤷‍♂️

dusk scroll
robust frost
#

Honestly, paladin is fine, it just lacks some active abilitys

fiery portal
#

also lure basically works like a taunt but between enemies, how come paladin taunt sucks?

inner elk
robust frost
dusk scroll
#

sounds busted, every tank ive played with just takes agro and loses it randomly so i end up missing all my shit and do negative dps

inner elk
robust frost
inner elk
#

As far as specific solutions I would recommend the following:

  1. Make paladin/tanky support archetypes playable

Move guardian ID to ability tree + give guard a new ID
Remove cooldown from provoke, instead make Taunt ID do something extra
Rework all of the other dogshit abilities clogging the tree
Replace them with active abilities that allow for skill expression

  1. Change specific fights for balance

Can give greg more aoe/tankbusters (he already has these in the form of purple rings/void holes/watched but could use more?)
Adjust other content as needed

robust frost
#

Well, greg doesnt need more tank busters, aura and stuff already does enough to mess you up
But yeah, paladin rework is something required

near stone
#

well when they changed greg's health from 16m -> 22m they also nerfed TP aura

#

because in 2.0 hero beta and some of 2.0 launch, greg's tp aura could kill guardian users with 30k+ hp because it was like 3.5k true damage and he moved a lot more

#

in the current state, orphion boss fight is more challenging than greg

#

orphion is faster than greg, teleports, and has a higher AOE, and feels like more melee damage

#

the only difference is HP and the watched phases, and the watched phases are literally a break from the madness, making the boss easier

#

if anything buffing TP aura again would be a better tankbuster than just upping melee damage or something else

maybe the final watched phase greg looks at everyone at the same time multiple times in a row? Would require more coordination than normal watched phases

#

and would actually feel like impending doom

inner elk
#

Honestly just make it harder to infinitely kite greg on any glass build while taking 0 damage

lament shale
#

i think wynn should always continue to be balanced around primarily single player with multiplayer elements (although I do agree raids should have more party mechanics)

#

idk just give paladin more self and party buff mechanics/abilities and take away a lot of the unnecessary bulk or something

inner elk
lament shale
#

meant the purely tank abilities that paladin has

inner elk
#

Yeah those are actually necessary

lament shale
#

🥴

inner elk
#

Warrior is down 10% base resist and goes from 0.192^2 to 0.3^2 damage mitigation

lament shale
#

well, I’m not saying stuff like mantle needs to go it’s just that 99% of its kit is quite literally Not Die

#

and I think it’s boring

inner elk
#

Yes but not dying is the only way for tanks to be playable like
There are plenty of people like me who enjoy being unkillable, especially when it's literally the only defensive archetype in the game

lament shale
#

I don’t really think paladin needing defense or agi investment would be a bad thing anyways

inner elk
#

It does, but def/agi investment is nerfed, so you need to compensate with other abilities?

lament shale
#

i think players being consistently unkillable is pretty bad ngl

inner elk
#

The increased survivability from abilities is the reason they were nerfed in the first place lol

lament shale
#

that’s just kinda not true

inner elk
#

That is explicitly true and the reason they gave for the nerf in the patch notes

lament shale
#

that was what was said to describe paladin in specific, not defense/agility in general

inner elk
#

If I put every skill point/item/ability into damage I should deal damage, if it put it into survivability I should have survivability?

lament shale
#

i didn’t say that was a bad thing?

#

you’re kinda making assumptions here

inner elk
#

Either way the point is paladin doesn't need to lose survivability, it just needs to be rebalanced to be more active/engaging

lament shale
#

i mean, that was pretty much my point to begin with

inner elk
#

like Good to know

lament shale
#

defense/agi nerf was something that outright needed to happen

inner elk
#

That is true, imo dex/strength nerf also should have happened for the exact same reason as def/agi/int nerfs

#

Instead we got 5x damage creep because of abilities

lament shale
#

they were incredibly potent prior to 2.0, and the way they scaled with each other was also ludicrous

the problem herein was how raids were consistently balanced around needing to be deadly to even the bulkiest of builds, which massively hindered build diversity because of needing base amounts of ehp to not get one shot in stuff like old tcc and nol; purely air defensive builds were generally not viable

#

it was something that needed to happen for raid balance to not be completely fucked and I’m not saying that defense/agi shouldn’t be tanky it was just way too good before

inner elk
#

I mean they mostly became way too good because of added survivability from abilities, the same way damage is now insane because abilities just added damage on top without taking any away

#

"The Defence and Agility changes were implemented to account for the greater survivability that certain abilities give and to improve balancing" word for word from 2.0 patch notes

lament shale
#

you had 4 spells prior to 2.0 lol, with even a somewhat tanky build you could afk and be unkillable to pretty much all non raid content

inner elk
#

Yes ik this from experience saltroll , but you also did sub 10k dps (I took 4 hours to kill phoenix prince secret discovery)

lament shale
#

whether 2.0 abilities added onto it was irrelevant as to the decision - it was something that was going to happen inevitably

inner elk
#

Not really, I would say it wasn't broken at all prior to abilities and the fact that literally nobody played tanky builds proved that

#

Like statue/hetusol prices have actually increased several times since I used to play tank

lament shale
#

uh huh… I don’t think you really saw pre 2.0 raid metas then

inner elk
#

I mean either way, I think current survivability is alright and damage creep is still too high (and that's being worked on with each update)

lament shale
#

well, that’s not really an unpopular take

#

but saying pre 2.0 metas didn’t revolve around a lot of defensive items is just flat out wrong no matter how you look at it lol

inner elk
#

like Tbh I don't care, I just want current paladin to be made playable

lament shale
#

ok

paper zealot
cold bane
#

Rework it to deal melee damage LUL

simple mist
#

Ever since they reworked the trade market with the new mechanics with tax reduction through silverbull share, it is highly annoying to see how much something will actually be sold for once you put a price in for it. Just as an example, I put 5 hemp grains I had laying around in my inventory, and I attempt to sell at 64 emeralds each. the tax is 15 total, but it does not show the total price per item like it used to prior to 2.0.2. In this example its easy since its a small number, but when selling items at different prices, it can be very annoying to see the actual tm price other players will see. The solution would be to just add another line to show the price per item.

image.png
paper zealot
simple mist
#

with the stats provided rn, ig the best way to determine price per unit would be the amt each like u said, and then u would add to it the (total tax / amt. sold)

paper zealot
simple mist
#

np 😄

pliant current
pure sparrow
#

No

pliant current
#

what else

pure sparrow
#

Summoner got hit pretty hard again, double totem acolyte also got a lot worse

lunar token
signal gulch
#

lmao at all the "shamans heal for huge amounts!!!!" yeah if you're the ally, not the shaman

#

tiny brain people forgetting that shaman heals cost the shaman's health

ember holly
dusk scroll
#

my face when water damage exists

signal gulch
# ember holly Acolyte can heal way more than the cost it takes

"way more" is a pretty way of putting it considering 1) shaman is the glassiest class in the game with also the most unwieldly movement spell so literally every little bit of health matters, 2) the massive health regain is dependent on a few very specific items and 3) very specific abilities on the Acolyte tree

dusk scroll
#

also my face when shaman healer is only really used in wars and maybe grindparties cuz its not needed anywhere else

ember holly
#

acolyte skill issue....

signal gulch
#

(i'm talking about absolution + water damage armor + fluid healing + blood rite btw)

agile rivet
dusk scroll
#

all i know is that big healers are useless in general use

signal gulch
#

you are not wrong but it is very sad that the CT disagrees

lament shale
dusk scroll
#

i'd argue its not viable cuz in tna for example not only is it hard to heal people cuz shaman is imobile but also most people play glass so if they take dmg they are most likely gona die anyway

lament shale
#

it’s a pretty large range and what people play doesn’t make it any worse

#

it’s not like it’s solely a healing class anyways, has immense aoe and yet arguably still the strongest single target damage for shaman post summoner nerfs

#

you also don’t need abso for its healing to suffice

#

I do think the healing nerf in the most recent update was unnecessary but a certain someone here would say I’m advocating for shaman’s downfall anyways

dusk scroll
#

i still dont see it, you either use abso to heal in wars or you dont heal whatsoever cuz its pointless

lament shale
#

i just gave ways in which it is strong outside outside of healing

dusk scroll
lament shale
#

damage isn’t the only thing that this game revolves around 🤯

lament shale
dusk scroll
#

but im talking about healing not damage ...?

lament shale
#

you don’t need abso to heal…?

dusk scroll
#

you dont need to heal if you dont war and if you war you need abso

#

or atleast a crafted relik

lament shale
#

“you don’t need to heal” 💀

dusk scroll
#

sorry but thats how the game is designed, i dont like it either but we gota be realistic

lament shale
#

you don’t really need strong mobility either but that doesn’t make it not good

dusk scroll
#

what do you define as strong mobility

lament shale
#

high walk speed or specialized archetypes like acrobat/monk/bolt

dusk scroll
#

how much walk speed is high to you

lament shale
#

i don’t need acrobats mobility so this makes it worthless 🤯

#

idk anything above 70 tbh

dusk scroll
#

and you DO need mobility cuz greg exists thats my whole point, the current content forces mobility and doesnt allow healing to be viable

lament shale
#

tna is surely the sole content in game

dusk scroll
#

ok lets base things off of NOTG then like

lament shale
#

cool, healing is viable there and in tna

dusk scroll
#

me when healers are the rarest players to see in a raid

#

and why is that i wonder.. oh cuz healing is useless

lament shale
#

because it’s a rare role in game…? there’s only like two archetypes ever that make it apart of their identity

#

and like, if you’re just gonna argue that seeing them is rare makes them bad then I’m just not gonna bother lol

dusk scroll
#

it doesnt make them bad..

lament shale
dusk scroll
#

it makes them irrelevant to the current content

#

bad and useless are 2 different things

lament shale
#

again just not true but if you continue to use solely tna as a basis and pure dps being the most popular choice then I don’t think you’re willing to discuss

dusk scroll
#

healers can heal 1 morbilion hp in seconds which makes them strong but they are just useless cuz the content doesnt require it

lament shale
#

the content doesn’t require high dps either

dusk scroll
#

ok then what content do we use to measure?

lament shale
#

the whole game…?

dusk scroll
#

why?

fiery portal
#

jus gonna say this but I'm blaming this argument on greg's design

lament shale
#

did you really ask me why we should use the whole game as a basis for balancing 💀

dusk scroll
#

yes why

fiery portal
#

greg ain't just ruining the fabric of reality, it also be ruining the status quo skull

dusk scroll
#

everything that isnt endgame is piss easy to deal with so it literaly shouldnt matter for endgame balancing

lament shale
#

it won’t be the sole endgame content forever 🤯

dusk scroll
#

yes but for now it is 🤯

lament shale
dusk scroll
#

just like tcc made the meta ehp and tierstack reliant now tna makes it walk speed reliant just move on and accept it

#

idk why its so hard to accept change

#

you dont seriously except every raid to be the exact same type of content right

fiery portal
lament shale
#

“change” brother they worked hard to make it so tcc wasn’t hard-definitive of the meta 💀

dusk scroll
#

no thats just making a raid 1 tier above tcc

lament shale
#

technically they’re both endgame

dusk scroll
#

and that raid becomes the definition of the meta

lament shale
#

again just not true but it’s clear you’re not gonna change your perceptions so 🤷

dusk scroll
#

you just refuse to accept change like

lament shale
#

i refuse to accept that one raid doesn’t define the entire game and that we should make all archetypes follow the same niche 🥰

dusk scroll
#

let me explain more simply then

lament shale
#

“simply” as if it’s not hard enough for you to understand that tna isn’t everything

dusk scroll
#

for example if i were to use a TNA build anywhere other than tna for combat it would perform well even in tcc, but if i were to use a tcc tailored build in tna it would be an awfull experience

lament shale
#

me running eta fallen warrior in tcc (it will surely go well)

dusk scroll
#

dont see why it wouldnt, i can manage with ETWA warp so 🤷‍♂️

#

ive also used ETWA fallen warrior in tcc and managed fine

#

tcc has been nerfed to oblivion

#

its not remotely as hard as it was at the start of 2.0

lament shale
#

numbers not design issue

dusk scroll
#

(?)

pure sparrow
#

💀

cold bane
fiery portal
#

me soloing Every Content Ever ever since i got abso bc i outlive everything and everyone with my massive ass heals

dusk scroll
#

me doing the same with morph the nothing

fiery portal
#

morph the nothing is so goated

#

morph mage in general really

dusk scroll
#

morph the nothing would be unironicaly goated asf if tna wasnt so walk speed hungry

cold bane
#

Teleport like

dusk scroll
#

dps loss\

fiery portal
#

as long as ur not dead you can still deal damage 🤷‍♂️

dusk scroll
#

true but i'd rather do more dmg with walk speed kiting

#
  • walk speed in general is very fun
cold bane
#

Warp dps :holyshit:

dusk scroll
#

warpanist my beloved

paper zealot
paper zealot
plain canopy
#

well mage's heal has a cap. No idea if shaman's version does.

inner elk
plain canopy
#

again there is a cap

inner elk
#

Mage heal has a % HP cap, I thought shaman didn't have one?

plain canopy
#

heal can't heal more than 30% of a players health per 1.

#

yeah fluid healing's cap is just that.
no idea if shaman does.

#

it probably doesn't since it never mentions it

inner elk
#

Also I thought orphion's pulse increased the total heal cap

#

Maybe I have dementia

plain canopy
#

it doesn't

#

all orphion pulse does is just add extra heals (which means you can heal 90% in total if you decide to go for the cap)

plain canopy
cold bane
#

Just revert to pre-2.0 water damage calculations

dusky widget
cold bane
#

Will help close the gap between abso and other reliks + mage heal will be more comparable to shaman one

cold bane
#

If there was one, it would be probably mentioned in tooltip

lament shale
#

There isn’t one

dusk scroll
#

acording to hppeng yeah there is no cap on fluid healing

gleaming epoch
#

meanwhile theres me hard stuck lvl 98 because my shaman cant even survive scrapyard for 10 minutes 💀

umbral gull
waxen patrol
#

Skill issue flat out

#

I (for the meme) went to scrapyard at 60 and survived

gleaming epoch
gleaming epoch
umbral gull
#

sounds like a chill playthrough of CUR, with xp set for the final hit (really easy in cur)
or maybe some secret discoveries

fallen lantern
#

Or get a party

gleaming epoch
#

thats besides the point

fallen lantern
#

Bomb parties are illegal though

gleaming epoch
#

people start doing scrapyard at what, lvl 90? a levelled shaman shouldnt be getting deleted at scrapyard just because they chose acolyte

umbral gull
#

at like lv 75

fallen lantern
#

With a party and cosmic or champion set

umbral gull
#

also, sounds more of a you problem. dont think most others have problems

gleaming epoch
#

ok for scrap parties where ur getting carried sure

umbral gull
gleaming epoch
pliant current
#

you only need irl money to host one, not in game

gleaming epoch
#

if i meant in game currency i would have said emeralds

pliant current
#

oh

#

just leech off someone instead

gleaming epoch
#

but seriously i challenge anyone here to make a viable acolyte build that can survive inside scrapyard at lvl 98

#

its ridiculous that you need abso or crafteds to get even close to the healing u need

fallen lantern
#

Kelights book from wynnter fest

strong lantern
#

what?

fallen lantern
#

No more dxp scrap parties

pliant current
gleaming epoch
#

uses abso 💀

gleaming epoch
#

literally proving my point

fiery portal
#

genuine question does yol work?

#

or like, morph the watched

pliant current
dusky widget
#

i dont think youre right

pliant current
#

why

serene flower
#

I see nothing wrong with acolyte being better then lightbender as a healer. You play a slower, frailer and risker class in order to heal a bit more; thats a fair trade off. Right now lightbender out DPS acolyte in single target, so your also playing a class thats weaker in most circumstances.

#

yes I have an abso, but i'm not biased at all trust me

#

acutally though, you shoudlnt need a mythic to make shaman playable

pliant current
#

abso meta moment

lament shale
#

i don’t know why people have the perception that abso is by any means necessary for acolyte or that it can’t be built offensively

pliant current
#

overdrive works too

#

but shaman plays a lot easier with abso

lament shale
#

that’s just all fire mythics

pliant current
#

true

#

but for some reason abso gives 78% more healing, mana regen, -cost, and is also powerful in terms of damage

lament shale
#

fair enough

serene flower
#

because even absolution isnt that strong in the grand scheme of things, compared to other classes using there best weapons like divser or cataclysm (at least outside of wars). Plus non mythic weapons for shaman are mostly terrible, theres like two choices

pliant current
#

it's better than all other classes' options

#

overdrive and lumina

serene flower
#

ig overdrive is pretty overtuned. I would bring up archer non mythics, but currently archer can outdps shaman with a full normal items set; so thats not really fair

#

we sorta need more non mythic options that are viable for shaman, asssassin and warrior

pliant current
#

but yeah assassin and warrior need some good nonmythics

gleaming epoch
#

and without the water damage, acolyte is such a pain to play that i'd rather play afk simulator summoner or choose your passive buff ritualist

signal gulch
#

in again with the "you don't NEED this or that to play the game fr fr"

yeah lol I don't need to level up or even use equipment at all. but guess what. you do need to be at a certain level of efficacy to be able to reasonably participate in a lot of the game's content

#

the whole "TNA isn't the whole game!!!!!!!!!" argument rings really, really hollow considering that TNA is (currently) the endgame challenge in Wynncraft. Thus, being able to be a reasonably effective participant in it should be considered when balancing all classes and their archetypes.

#

And right now, being a tank/healer is simply not an effective role to be playing. If you are a shaman trying for TNA, you are taking up a spot that could otherwise have been filled by an archer or someone who deals damage on par with it.

warm zephyr
#

i love dps!!!!!!!!!!

icy seal
lament shale
warm zephyr
#

hi nip nop

lament shale
#

1k base, benefits from free concentration, lots of spell damage and mr and doesn’t nuke your ehp

#

don’t even need good spell costs for shaman anymore so idek why its spell costs were buffed

warm zephyr
#

depersonalization doesn’t exist oooooo

lean flare
#

Defense is the best offense

warm zephyr
#

im a hadal fan for sure though

fallen lantern
lament shale
warm zephyr
#

mana

lament shale
#

oh random ritualist ability

warm zephyr
#

i love ritualist

lament shale
#

i don’t know what that has to do with this but sure

warm zephyr
#

honestly i feel like all of my replies in this conversation were really pointless and didn’t need to be said

#

my excuse is that i am tired

lament shale
#

non mythic reliks not being the greatest is also pretty fair I’d say it’s almost in a similar boat to warrior but still at least has items like overdrive and cryo to an extent

warm zephyr
#

endgame nonmythics are pretty sad for shaman yea

#

i feel like there’s a couple other usable reliks at endgame but it really just isn’t enough even if you consider shit like yellow rose 💀

fallen lantern
warm zephyr
#

mmmmm

fallen lantern
#

Hp loss is enough

#

When ya cant even abuse aura like meteor

warm zephyr
#

i feel like there’s probably been discussions about this somewhere and the conclusion has been made

#

i just don’t really know what the stance on pzealot is at all so .

lament shale
#

inferna flamewreath 💥
salpinx 💥
arbalest 💥

warm zephyr
#

arbalest uproot build!!!!! so true

fallen lantern
#

Panic zealot cancelstack hybrid

lament shale
#

(the booms represent vine booms

fallen lantern
#

With struggle or bete noire

lament shale
#

conference call and loaded question are actually ok though

warm zephyr
#

my ass getting kicked out of the tna group after rolling up with morph arbalest

lament shale
#

i wanna say the watched is also kinda shitass but

warm zephyr
#

the watched is like

lament shale
#

rsanc battery

warm zephyr
#

yeahhh idk. it’s fine i guess

fallen lantern
lament shale
#

I kind of miss etwf and tfa meta

untold cloak
strong lantern
#

Why does shaman have a node the coverts soul points into life steal. It’s the most useless stat why lock 1000 life steal behind it? It just feels like an extremely weird node.

inner elk
ember holly
#

It's because it's a useless stat that it got the life steal node

#

So you'd have a reason to use items with it

dusk scroll
#

same reason mage gets thunder % for sprint

serene flower
#

Absolution having soul point Regen giving you 150 life steal for free is yet another W the relik has

#

does anybody know if Soul point regen from consumables works with blood moon?

lament shale
#

Not like ls is useful for shaman tho

serene flower
#

LS shaman works acolyle acutally uses its melee attack (because upproot is a godawful spell so your just running mask of the lunatic)

#

blood moon being better then twisted tether is funny

robust frost
lament shale
serene flower
#

twister tethers probably the single worst node on the shaman tree. It does basically no damage at all, while taking 7 acolyte REQ and being a must take to go further down the tree. If tether just didn't exisit acolyte would be much better.

#

not that blood moon is a crazy good abitily or anything, its pretty awful too. You just acutally notice the life steal when your playing the game.

fallen lantern
#

Tether does nice damage with furious effigy (PZ or Tachypsychia)

strong lantern
serene flower
#

I tested blood moon + soul point regen potions, doesnt work 🤷‍♂️

vocal fiber
ember holly
ember holly
plain canopy
#

Only a few items have sprint making it obnoxious

dusk scroll
#

yeah i mean i would never even attempt to make use of that node

serene flower
#

in my defense, nobody plays ritualist so its not unreasonable for me to forget about seeking totem

fallen lantern
dusk scroll
fallen lantern
#

Ofc

#

Not arguing.

dusk scroll
#

meanwhile there is no crafted that can give you 1000 life steal single handedly

#

i wish i could get 1000 life steal on mage 🤤

fallen lantern
#

Quetzalcoatl, The Nothing+Gaping cavity.

#

Judassaltroll

dusk scroll
#

yeah but no accesory can replace it the way dynamic faith can be replaced

fallen lantern
#

Yes

dusk scroll
#

granted that is kind of a case of crafteds being stupid strong with spell %

vocal fiber
fallen lantern
#

It doesn't even make sense since ya will have cheaper totem to relocate it.

plain canopy
#

i always found seeking totem useful solely on mobs which didn't rely too much on minions.

#

Otherwise god no i'd never use that ability, it was fun dumb but too situational

strong lantern
#

Seeking totem just needs a speed buff?

#

Make it scale with walk speed lol

vocal fiber
#

It needs to be Annihilated

raw rover
#

it should be an optional node

fallen lantern
#

At least.

ember holly
gleaming epoch
#

tbh theres not really any practical reason why we'd want totem to move itself. totem aoe is plenty big already

fringe perch
#

how about change the ability to the totem hitting the griddy

#

and those crazy dance moves stun enemies

waxen patrol
lament shale
#

unique is true good is a bit of a stretch

#

although I suppose it’s still decently better than some other classes

cold bane
warm zephyr
#

i queue into tna sometimes in full gold as party leader and it works just fine

cold bane
#

But then 2 tol pay

signal gulch
#

please don't queue TNA as shaman...give the spot to a class that actually helps vs Greg

#

even I go into TNA on warrior at the very least

robust frost
waxen patrol
#

please don't queue TNA as mage...give the spot to a class that actually does literally anything anything vs Greg

robust frost
warm zephyr
#

please don't queue TNA

dusk scroll
waxen patrol
robust frost
dusk scroll
#

team utility is worthless against greg, the whole fight is anti teamwork

waxen patrol
#

No, not at all (Talking to Ztirom not Marqn)

#

Anyone with a brain can solo greg, greg is not hard

dusk scroll
#

the only thing that matters is dps and thats all there is to it sadly

waxen patrol
#

movement speed:
the rest of the raid:

dusk scroll
#

movement speed is self utility

waxen patrol
#

When I said utility i meant for others

#

If you have utility to do +100% more damage to self that is cool but doesn't do anything for others

dusk scroll
#

like what are you gona do? heal the etw players that can healthemselves to full with 1 hp pot

gleaming epoch
#

damn i didnt know the mmo holy trinity was called 3x team buffers

dusk scroll
#

wynn raids just dont care about teamwork

#

simply bring 4 dps builds and you are good to go

waxen patrol
#

they really need to make a boss that isn't a stat check and is instead a mechanics check

#

I want communication and intresting mechanics not brainless clicking

dusk scroll
#

would be nice for sure, but unlikely to happen

waxen patrol
#

I don't like the idea that making players talk to eachother is bad design

#

its a raid, in an mmo, if you dont like playing in groups then this is literally by definition not the right game for you

gleaming epoch
#

making players talk to each other in a game with no communication is, though

dusk scroll
#

frankly the way i see it greg is easier solo than with a team so its the oposite of teamwork 💀

waxen patrol
#

greg if they didn't run like a damn coward every 4s:

gleaming epoch
#

we at least need location pings before we can really have teamwork in wynn imo

waxen patrol
#

what

#

plenty of teamwork games do fine with this by simply having mechanics clearly indicated 💀

sweet venture
robust frost
waxen patrol
#

I am talking about how it should be imo not what it is, 1-99 being solo is completely fine to me

#

max level content should be engaging

sweet venture
#

grootslang:
possibly nol:

cold bane
waxen patrol
cold bane
#

Idc

#

Speaking about teamwork, NoL is a bit closest to that because crystallization

#

Obviously it has a lot of flaws, but an attempt was made

dusk scroll
#

(raids arent guild wars you dont have to use the most optimal and minmaxed build possible)

waxen patrol
#

man i just hate mage it has nothing to do with any of that

dusk scroll
#

why hate it tho

waxen patrol
#

doing a timed dungeon in wow will answer later

dusk scroll
#

this isnt wow like

waxen patrol
#

i know that i literally just meant give me a few

dusk scroll
#

oh nvm reading comprehension moment

waxen patrol
#

all g

dusk scroll
#

(i was totaly about to give a bunch of reasons why having a class like mage in a wow group would be super beneficial saltroll )

sage moon
pastel fox
#

He is legit easier solo than with a group

dusk scroll
#

so true

waxen patrol
# dusk scroll why hate it tho

ok so long story short so its not 5 paragraphs, I actually really really like casters in games. I love the idea of just launching massive projectiles at stuff and seeing it explode. The problem is the mage kit in Wynn, and what it incentivizes.

Heal, ice snake, and teleport. Those three. Heal itself is completely fine as a spell. The problem is (outside of raids) these 3 spells alone would let you win any fight if you want to play it long enough. Teleport gets you away, Ice snake makes it so it takes longer for the mob to get to you, and heal resets the problem. Get some decent mana regen, and assuming the mob can't run at mach 5 you are invincible if played right. This is rather silly. This would entirely be prevented if wynn had cast times, but it doesnt. You mentioned how a mage is useful in wow so assuming you've played it, imagine if classes in wow had a 10% heal, instant cast, no cooldown, no GCD (just saying it because in wow there are no spells you can actually do this with) and ALSO had blink from mage.

I really like meteor. Meteor is cool. The problem is that the 3 other spells in mage incentivize playing like a coward. There are actually solutions to this imho, such as your healing being reduced by a % each time you cast it and building back up over a very short time. Like 2s short. Seriously. In my opinion Ice Snake should just flat out be changed, it does so little damage, most endgame mobs are immune for the most part, and it could easily be replaced with a more relevant spell like a flamethrower that COULD STILL ALSO SLOW, but not have such range and spamability (It would need to expand, like a cone.)

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In short, if you don't care how people play the game mage is completely fine. I do care though, a bit too much at that. I don't think it is good to encourage new players to learn they can just run from all the mobs in the game. It is why I have always enjoyed the playstyles where you basically stand there and fight face to face rather than a class where you kite the mob.

I had to send this message seperate I wrote 2k characters skull

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also flat out no exceptions I don't want to hear it, heal should NOT do damage. That is stupid. I don't care if its 1 damage. Make it 0.

dusk scroll
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arcanist literaly has no heal and punishes you for using teleport during combat so thats 2 of the spells gone

waxen patrol
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"Punishes" is the wrong word, it was intentionally done because salted wanted people to do 5x teleports for whatever reason...

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And even if you remove heal teleport, ice snake doesn't even work with meteor half the time and even if it did just aim better

dusk scroll
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and also another thing, the entire 2.0 playstyle is playing like a coward cuz everyone goes ETW and tries their best to avoid getting hit ever

waxen patrol
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as for archer, I will admit I give it less crap since its kinda typical archer in fantasy to hit and run constantly, but for a more acceptable answer I'm fine with archer mroe so because arrow storm as well as shield HEAVILY encourage getting close

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mage has no demerit for being 40 blocks vs 1 block away on the other hand

waxen patrol
dusk scroll
waxen patrol
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ok, and thats 1/3rd of the class

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you asked why i said I hate mage

dusk scroll
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yeah but its still kinda eh

waxen patrol
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well flat out Its not my problem to justify my feelings to you saltroll you asked why I think the way I do and I did, I'm not here to convince you to hate it as well

dusk scroll
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mage in my opinion is cool cuz it works for both super casual players that dont want to put any effort and also for players that want a more challenging gameplay

waxen patrol
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well i don't like no effort, not saying you need to tryhard either

dusk scroll
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yeah but you have the option to do either one

waxen patrol
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playin like a bit឵឵឵ch, then upset when people say its dumb

dusk scroll
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its not like you are locked to only one playstyle like most other classes

waxen patrol
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That's more minmaxing than anything ive said

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You can always play other playstyles with other classes, just not the most optimal

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anyway i gotta go run another M+ dungeon hf

dusk scroll
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well either way there is nothing wrong with hating mage personaly but the way you go about saying that playing mage is a loss makes it look like its an awfull class in general

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like i hate shaman's guts but im not gona complain when someone else likes or plays it in my party

waxen patrol
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Mage is ok to play, I hate the design behind it

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Its my group, they don't bring anything I want, but it doesn't mean they have no value

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like I said, I don't want the heal utility which costs the damage of a class I could bring otherwise

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there are groups that need that utility, and that is great for them

dusk scroll
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then ask for arcanists like

waxen patrol
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no

dusk scroll
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guh

sweet venture
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mage's only use is soloing wars

dusk scroll
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minmaxer spoted

agile rivet
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goober

cold bane
cold bane
robust frost
sweet venture
robust frost
cold bane
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^

cold bane
dusk scroll
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that looks like a mage tank + mage dps duo

cold bane
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no it's just me skill issuing as cata

dusk scroll
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oh wow

cold bane
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(but also base builds tend to run out of mana a bit fast without consumables for me at least)

robust frost
cold bane
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I guess for a spare pair of boots

delicate gale
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@dusk scroll 🥱

dusk scroll
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@delicate gale hello #2 mage fan

delicate gale
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#2 mage hater

dusk scroll
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thats what you make yourself believe but you love it deep inside

flint birch
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i will be real

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immolation is quite weird for a shaman mythic

delicate gale
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Thank you for being real Skoneez

dusk scroll
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fake news

flint birch
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immo can only be used with tfa

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which is 🥴

lament shale
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I mean, if you don’t just abuse high walk speed or use archetypes with innately high mobility then greg is pretty mechanically engaging and fun

dusk scroll
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wdym mechanicaly engaging? you just die or spam mobility spells and deal 10% of the dmg you would otherwise deal

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nothing engaging about spaming RRRRRRR the entire time

lament shale
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it’s pretty fun on -30% walk speed shaman

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positioning actually matters although it is true sometimes when he’s just charge spamming I have to stay in the air until it’s over

dusk scroll
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ok i guess shaman is the exception cuz you have to use 2 abilities to fly around

lament shale
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it’s not like high mobility builds haven’t completely trivialized bosses in the past so idk what people expected lmao

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saying people shouldn’t be allowed to join tna on a class you dislike though is absolutely insane my god

cold bane
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hmm I wanna imagine a world where there's no archers in TNA

ember holly
midnight nacelle
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hmm I wanna imagine a world where there's no archers

cold bane
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yes, delete archer like

plain canopy
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i agree teamwork is needed, but god making that thing forced is just... yeah.

inner elk
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lmao as opposed to the 'optional' teamwork that will definitely affect how players interact with the boss

plain canopy
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if you get stuck by the crystal because you didn't dodge it and the team had to help you out, that's great. but hitting whatever the marker is and rng just deciding who gets picked just feels cheap

inner elk
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Yeah ideally it's reworked to something other than RNG, but understand that most of the UVP for raids comes from team mechanics (as opposed to everything else in the game, which is single player)
The most fun gameplay should also be the most efficient because otherwise you create a conflict of interest that stops the player from getting both at the same time
When all the mechanics are optional and skippable nobody will ever use them, this is why unavoidable team play like crystallized is basically mandatory if you want multiplayer content to exist

plain canopy
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i mean not really, because in an ideal scenario if you get hit by the crystalisation and you're alone, well you're doomed have fun. Go die.

wheat swallow
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You get a fair warning before it, and you can get out very quickly if you position yourself near teamates. The rng is more of a thing to make you adapt and work with your team

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The solo situation is dumb though

plain canopy
cold bane
plain canopy
wheat swallow
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How about, crystallisation health bar appears slightly before the actaul freeze

cold bane
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^

wheat swallow
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So you can destroy it before it forms

cold bane
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I like this idea a lot

plain canopy
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Also still enforces teamwork because NOL is a big arena

wheat swallow
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it's preventable, and still needs teamwork

plain canopy
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so if someone is on the other side of the arena they can call out if it's annoying to spot

cold bane
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well, but it's much healthier

plain canopy
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just anything's better than what it is rn

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especially with the 90% damage thing

cold bane
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  • maybe still you are allowed to move but at greatly reduced speed
ember holly
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Weep about It

plain canopy
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it's a bad mechanic

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Dont be so mad that someone dislikes a mechanic in a boss fight.

ember holly
serene flower
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party finder can barely do the tree room, yet alone deal with crystallization

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my experience with NOL was getting crystaled and no matter how much I said in chat that I was fucking dying; my teammates didnt notice

fallen lantern
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Tbh its hard to spot who is getting crystalized with the amount of mobs and the lag fest.

dusk scroll
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fr the last 5 nol runs i did my fps was under 10 the entire boss fight

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my pc isnt good but its not that bad either

fringe perch
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i have a ridiculous pc and my fps averages like 80 in orphion its horrid

dusk scroll
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i can imagine someone on a worse pc than me or laptop just crashing

fallen lantern
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My fps is usually 30 so orphion got me counting spf

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Yes I do have optimazation mods. A lot