#Future of Challenging Content Part 2.

1 messages · Page 2 of 1

distant shadow
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along with a huge onscreen title and text about it

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hive's is more subtle but you can look out and learn them

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none of them are oneshots- never were, despite what some people might insist with their million dps, so you should be able to basically figure out every single one

timber stag
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I can't read the 1000 messages, sorry if it was already suggested
I'm thinking all those idea about boss rooms, those are ideas to distract players from the boss to add challenge to the room, and might be great when combined :

  • Having mobs like Deathknell Wretch in eldritch outlook is really a interesting feature because it makes you have to switch focus and always be prepared for the moment it will come. I think adding more of those would be entertaining. Little problem I can see with this mechanic is that both bulb catchers and deathknell wretch are immune to cc, it would be probably better if those had resistance or partial immunity like greg so that builds that dps builds aren't the only thing that can deal with it.
  • Other idea : pushing aoe damage a little bit more for the newer updates, this would switch out the current meta builds a little bit. But I don't think lag machines like nol boss would be great, what about kinda infinite respawning mobs kinda like stone construct in first tcc room ? if those respawn on the edges of the room, aoe damage would be great to get rid of those easily while parties with 0 aoe would have to organize and choose people who get rid of those.
  • a little bit less of a boss room idea : We got a lot of ways parties have to dispatch in raids but still no dispatching in 2 equal parts. This would avoid ruined raids because someone was getting hard carried but still force people to have some survivability
karmic gazelle
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How does this thread have 1000 messages already

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I can

pseudo crater
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god thank you

heady widget
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is it not possible to allow thread OP pin stuff? or is that just a discord restriction

karmic gazelle
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I think

heady widget
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cring

somber girder
somber girder
karmic gazelle
timber stag
karmic gazelle
timber stag
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I won't say that the 3 plateform can be frustrating anymore because you made the big rock mobs use charge instead of arrow storm (ty, it's honestly a funny room now)
but cutting party in half still looks like the best option in my opinion

prisma current
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i dont know if anyone mentioned this but i dont like orphions crystallization its a cool mechanic but it does make glass cannons absolutely 💀 as you just get eaten by mobs

brisk slate
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that's the point of glass cannons?
high risk high reward?

prisma current
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restricting your movement isnt really my cup of tea as to stay alive as one you kinda have to. move.

sonic vale
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nol is good at punishing going full dmg while tna does not

prisma current
harsh mountain
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speaking of nol, bosses like orphion who zoom around for literally no reason are kinda dumb

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having to use stuff like the door trick to get the boss to stay still makes fast clears underwhelming and braindead

prisma current
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more telegraphed attacks in bosses would be a really cool addition as well instead of just white circles. memorizing spell combos is a bit 🥴 for me but thats just my opinion

sonic vale
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another thing that i think can probably be taken from wynncon is boss bars being an indicator of incoming attacks except this idea is probably actually possible

empty root
harsh mountain
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how does crystallisation even proc?

stuck hinge
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important to take into consideration that wynncon boss bars only worked for individual boss spells and wouldn’t be a viable telegraph replacement for the majority of enemies

if every mob spell was a boss bar your entire screen would easily get flooded in many scenarios

stuck hinge
harsh mountain
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damn

sonic vale
echo pawn
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Difficult mechanic boss fights can't exist in wynncraft because there is no playstyle diversity lol
If players can only do one thing it doesn't matter what you do for the boss, fights stay homogeneous
In 2.0 damage increased by like 8x and EHP decreased by like 4x
Serious defensive/supportive builds are too difficult to justify compared to 500k dps so team play is fallen/bolt spam (this makes every boss fight feel the exact same with no need for role-based strategy like every other MMO)
And even in solo play you feel like you're missing out on too much by playing outside the meta
Shaman/mage/assassin as a whole are considered too 'weak' and they are by warrior/archer standards, but they run into the same issue of mandatory min-maxxing for the same DPS playstyle

If you want difficult boss fights you need to start by addressing what the player can/can't do

  1. Drastically lower DPS baseline and give higher numbers only to specialized players (still capping out at ~200k, which is insane by old standards)
  2. Give real options for defensive/support play, don't just gut every taunt/heal mechanic because greg isn't properly designed
  3. For solo content, add more difficult but better telegraphed attack pattern so not everything is infinitely kite/get 1 shot immediately
  4. For team content, tie mechanics to certain player roles (e.g. ONLY dps builds can get the party past X stage, only a tank player can keep the party alive in X stage, etc.)

Either way the massive stat changes are the elephant in the room. I don't think most people realize how big the changes were. The gap between offensive/defensive builds increased by literal orders of magnitude.

heady widget
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straight facts ^

nova burrow
karmic gazelle
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This is why I prefer solo boss fights

heady widget
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i mean greg is literaly mechanicaly easier solo than in a group cuz of how inconsistent agro is

karmic gazelle
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You aren't forced into a certain playstyle/class by your team if you don't have a team

timber stag
nova burrow
stuck hinge
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“”door strat”” >entire “strategy” is sitting in a corner and hoping you can facetank the boss

harsh mountain
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door strat only exists because orphion moves too fast and just goes wherever he feels like going. sitting in a corner means the boss sits in the corner with u which makes dealing damage infinitely easier

harsh mountain
nova burrow
timber stag
stuck hinge
harsh mountain
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ontop of that i never made any argument that door strat was unique, i was just talking about why people use it in nol

heady widget
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face tanking bosses was literaly my strategy from early 1.20 to the first month of 2.0 soo yeah i disagree

harsh mountain
heady widget
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especialy with old mage, had to face tank stuff in LI/corrupted dungeons or else i miss meteors cuz mobs move too much

harsh mountain
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nobody here even used the word unique until poobis brought it up

harsh mountain
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just coz you dont use them and also play a class with loads of self heal doesnt mean everyone else does

heady widget
harsh mountain
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anyway lets not derail the conversation

heady widget
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but now that arcanist exists and has funy psychokinesis im not using face tank builds anymore

harsh mountain
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door strat's uniqueness has no relevance to this thread, and i have no idea where poobis got the idea that i was even talking about door strat being unique

stuck hinge
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because someone else brought it up and I hate when people call it a “strategy” when it literally isn’t, I don’t care if people gave it a name lmao

somber girder
karmic gazelle
somber girder
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(pin it please)

karmic gazelle
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👍

somber girder
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thank you

jaunty current
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It really was. Mage even used to have 1 pulse heal in before

foggy kindle
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Mage used to legit be the best class iirc

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Back in the pre-gavel days

tardy vortex
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🤮

brisk slate
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(i wasn't there but still based)

heady widget
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i was there but i dont remember anything (still based)

empty root
foggy kindle
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I think before that

empty root
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before ToA was added ?

foggy kindle
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Yea, prob bob

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I could be remembering wrong

empty root
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Still I dont remember anyone beating Bob with Mage

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I think assassin was still VIP only and was busted AF

heady widget
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assasin vip only blobsweat

foggy kindle
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It stopped being vip only after vip town was removed

empty root
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I might be wrong with it being VIP only when Bob was "hardest" it was long time ago

foggy kindle
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I remember it not being vip during toa

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Anyways I might just be remembering some anecdotal story from some level 37 mage in Detlas back in 2014 or something

empty root
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Ye Bob still had some time with VIP only assassin (VIP town got removed in 1.12)

image.png
somber girder
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two pickup trucks, one cinder block

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Is there any fights in wynncraft you like and what reason do you enjoy them?

thorn turtle
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one ANTIQUE METAL.

karmic gazelle
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Predictable and easy to dodge very fast attacks

silk onyx
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Waterfowl dance is a really fair and dodgeable attack, therefore it should be added in TNA

rough pawn
foggy kindle
summer burrow
timber stag
# somber girder Is there any fights in wynncraft you like and what reason do you enjoy them?

I'm not talking about archer on this cuz they have unfair advantages against greg and I and I don't think it's super releavent to take those into account :
I honestly really like greg as a mage / shaman player : you have a bunch of different strategies available ; it's clean and not so laggy (except for greater one x100 arrow storm but ehh, it's ok) ; the boss phases are quite easy to learn and understand ; the phases difficulty is great as it really gets harder and harder without turning into a completely different fight ; tanking teamwork can work but requires organization and good bulids (not as easy as door strat with nol) ; managing the boss's movement and behaviour is really a thing and requires skill and is really rewarding ; the music and boss's animation are epic ; it's really hard to play ...
only problem is that super high damage parties can destroy him easily but no boss is exempted from this

foggy kindle
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Pretty easily too might I add, I have never seen a corner camping mage fail a Greg solo, I have seen every other class fail a Greg solo

prisma current
# somber girder Is there any fights in wynncraft you like and what reason do you enjoy them?

The eye without hpr and a stationary fair boss it’s a predictable and fun boss that challenges your skill level or used to at least.

PZ is also really fun but you have to calm your nerves and not panic while being on low health.

Greg to an extent since most of his attacks are telegraphed and once you learn his combos and spells he’s pretty fun to take down.

Personally i’d love telegraphed attacks as they are quite based and require you to learn the boss. No matter what build you’re using.

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i’d love to see some bullet hell bosses though

somber girder
prisma current
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also more boss rush content saltroll

foggy kindle
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LI 2: Electric Boogaloo

lunar yacht
# somber girder Is there any fights in wynncraft you like and what reason do you enjoy them?

i like how the eye uses its environment. the center allows you to be able to hit the eye but it also allows it to attack you. if you are off to the side, it gives you a break for a little bit and allows you to clear mobs but you cant hit the boss. it makes the eye fight have a really nice rhythm as you are switching from center for attacking and move off to the side to dodge., and makes it a genuine fun fight. the well telegraphed attacks allows you to actually be able to notice and dodge most attacks

nameless is alright. i like the void hole mechanic a lot. it is p fun to have to dodge the massive amounts of void holes later in the fight, making you also have to plan your movement a bit. some of the other attacks are interesting but also are barely noticed in the fight, or do too little damage to matter (notably The Void Bleeds, The Void Claims) and i think it would be interesting if they were buffed to make them more dangerous

titanium rat is good, it has simple and well marked dangerous attacks, just making it an overall enjoyable boss.

while not every boss has to have a unique quirky attack, if the more simple spells were telegraphed better (ex: a cone of particles indicating arrow storm, or a line of particles before charge) it would make the fights feel more clean and fun in my opinion. this would help make boss altars more interesting since most of the older ones use basic spells without much telegraphing 😭.

one of the main reasons why i like titanium rat and eye so much is that i feel like i can really notice and dodge their attacks. alongside this, they have a neat rhythm (dodging eye laser, or rat stomp) making the boss feel fast pace but also controlled.
for tna, the telegraphs for the attacks are good (when sound works) the boss is fast and mostly just a circlestrafe, resulting in you automatically dodging most attacks anyway, and I dont really feel like it has much of a rhythm to dodging its attacks.

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but yeah, the bosses with more depth than running in a circle or dodging attacks with little telegraphs are obviously much better, and my problem with tna is that it falls into the running in a circle category. im sure every single boss doesn't need a defined rhythm attack set for it to be fun, just telegraphing their attacks would make them more enjoyable by a lot. maybe i played too much hollow knight idk 😼

tardy vortex
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Eye is cool for reasons above, I liked that it really was a step up from other content difficulty wise. The only negative thing I'd say about the eye is the transition phases are kinda meh (they are just invul phases in disguise if you think about it)

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The falling eyes aren't difficult even without the safe spot, and the slow lasers in the same pattern everytime is not a challenge

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I've never died to final phase and idk about others, but I feel it could be made more dangerous

(Doesn't it just kinda run and tp?)

somber girder
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Final phase could be more dangerous if the wretches were around the entire arena so if you didn't stay near the center they'd burstranged at you

rose vapor
somber girder
rose vapor
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idk i might be just trolling through it

somber girder
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But no. You can't die fighting the Canary

rose vapor
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going to say that telegraphed attacks that are visible in game are cool, namely the eye/greg/titanium rat as said before by others. Im too lazy to actually search up the telegraphs outside of game and too dumb to learn telegraphs that are just spell spam in game ;-;

thorn turtle
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anyways while i am a fan of clearly telegraphed boss attacks i also love some of the classics and i think that over reliance on the newer style of bosses as a whole will make the game lose some of its charm

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prison of souls? banger. rymek luke (while charge worked)? banger. revenant of skien(specifically with an earth weapon)? banger.

distant shadow
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tbh I'm not really satisfied with revenant of skien anymore but

thorn turtle
nova burrow
nova burrow
red tinsel
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A few notes on probably minor endgame boss mechanics:
LI
I love big rat <3 everything you need to know is telegraphed, it still messes acrobat up a lot, but that's honestly fine.

Dr. Legendary's third phase is honestly kinda lame compared to the first two. Notably because the high damage projectiles make it really hard to engage with anything except ranged. And playing ranged is kinda boring if your build is not meant for it.

Death Metal is honestly the true impasse boss of LI if one exists and it's not exactly the great kind of impasse. He just filters out anything glassy (except the usually mythic tier glassy builds that just take him out in 0.25s) by the way he is designed.
Small arena, rapid fire/burst fire boss, spawns hordes of high health enemies that are also either ranged or fast.
I see why he has a small arena but compared to Cybel and Idol he kind of abuses it in an unfun way. You can immobilize cybel cores and regain arena control. Idol is just one enemy that you can cc. Death Metal fills up the entire arena with mobs that take noticeable time to kill, have non-negligible damage and can somewhat stun-lock your movement with ranged shenanigans.
I dislike mostly that he's either exactly one of two things:
a) You have the tankiness to ignore his minions and just kill him before it becomes a problem
b) You cannot cope with the minions (lack of tankiness, aoe damage, high mobility which some classes just inherently need to get from a build, i.e. shaman or in this context escape archer) and just cannot do anything.
I am also really unsure how you would change anything about it short of a redesign. He just requires a very different sort of arrangement of abilities compared to the rest of LI and it's kind of annoying to build around it?

rough pawn
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Yeah death metal is the embodiment of the problem with ranged projectile spam

thorn turtle
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disagree

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but i do agree that the boss itself has some issues

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honestly though some mobility + decent arena awareness is generally fine for death metal

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might be a lil rough but its doable af

red tinsel
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that's kinda the thing about it

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if your build is over the threshold he's pretty much a living joke
if it's not it's just incredibly unfun

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whereas with the other li bosses it's more of a gradient from spellspam > needs decent dodging > needs ranged cheese > suffering and agony

thorn turtle
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i mean in this instance you just cant ranged cheese

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i think the rest of the gradient is still there

red tinsel
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TNA
There are only very minor things about greg I dislike.
The Watched: The original version of watched was a non threat. The current version is literally just a mana/ws check.
Something that could be done to make it more interesting:
When you receive the title, greg takes your position and adds your current velocity times abut 0.5s to it and then fires at that predicted location after 0.5s (Stats subject to balancing).
This would make the watching hit you if you didn't alter your movement no matter how fast you are and also allow slower builds to juke it, by moving and then turning around.

I feel like flying skulls were made as an addition purely to spite acrobat and battle monk. Like the amount of extra movement they get when you are airborne is immensely funny. At least they are telegraphed but I wish they were more threatening to everyone and a little less so to acrobat/battle monk. The fight just turns into this charade where you deal damage, hear greg gregging out and run away hoping the skulls don't catch up.

Also the dash forward. I am pretty sure it has a sound cue. but it's uh kind of irrelevant when greg can just keep turning and still dash over you for high damage. I feel like he should lock the dash direction in when he gives the sound cue so you can dodge to the side, but not sure how doable this is.

Other than that greg is honestly fine.

thorn turtle
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death metal would 100% be more fun reworked but honestly it isnt that awful

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also skulls were literally added exactly for that purpose i think

distant shadow
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the reason the arena is small is because Death's arena is small

karmic gazelle
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corpus accipientis being a boss which no longer exists outside of LI

thorn turtle
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aw hell nah...

distant shadow
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that's literally it

thorn turtle
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death arena rework please pleeeeease im begging you toa sucks so much ass

red tinsel
distant shadow
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same reason as why matrojan idol arena is small- it matches the size of the matryoshka idol arena

thorn turtle
red tinsel
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if death metal was a stand alone boss, i would probably dislike him as much as panic zealot, but i wouldn't say change him necessarily because you can just change build to accomodate

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while swapping builds for one boss in the middle of LI is a very funny idea

distant shadow
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tbh I kinda expected people to have sort of a love-hate relationship with panic zealot- I fully understand the gimmick will be offputting to some, which is why it's a boss altar

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which is to say, totally optional and you really have to go out of your way to fight it

red tinsel
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i love the idea and atmosphere of panic zealot

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i really don't like how it either needs super glass, super tank or insane dodging

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so i am very glad that all of panic zealot's drops are still majorly pretty bad

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for greg just yeah, the watching and the void hole dash are something i'd say could get a change. (skulls are not unfair, i just dislike them.)

thorn turtle
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especially now tbh lmao

red tinsel
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that was from a comment i made before 2.0

thorn turtle
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the fight is a gimmick though anyways

red tinsel
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that's also something i despise from 2.0 overall

thorn turtle
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fair!

red tinsel
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2.0 just went "welp, giving everyone more damage, time to take a dump on agi and defense"

thorn turtle
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i think it would honestly be great if we just like halved player damage

distant shadow
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yep, basically. to both things

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pz is a gimmick, and player damage needs to drop hard

stuck hinge
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I wish zealot lost like wave and instead of doing 2 damage it like actually one shot you so any form of healing didn’t hard counter the one mechanic designed to make the boss somewhat difficult

red tinsel
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tbh that'd ruin the atmosphere

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the point is to make people panic by health vibing at 5

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though yeah i love quintuple wave spell spam, my beloved

stuck hinge
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ok then they can panic from not getting touched once, same thing

distant shadow
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that would give roughly the same kind of actual pressure

stuck hinge
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still dislike that two classes just existing just hard counter the boss in its entirety

thorn turtle
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i would say every class hard counters it now lol

distant shadow
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that's kinda the problem- everyone loves to say "oh give it a spell that does THIS" but making spells is a real problem because that requires a lot of coding work

stuck hinge
distant shadow
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from like, devs.

thorn turtle
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sure is lol

red tinsel
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i still dislike how every boss consideration needs to be made with the four main classes in mind and then once seperately for shaman's awful movement

thorn turtle
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shaman haul is good in combat wtf

red tinsel
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(literally cannot get over wave spell)

thorn turtle
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charge

stuck hinge
distant shadow
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and we need to make it generally applicable to mobs rather than just This One Boss Uses It unless we want to script gimmick it up, which has proven to be disastrous in many areas

red tinsel
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doesn't panic zealot already have like 2 (maybe 3) scripted gimmicks on top of basic spells

distant shadow
stuck hinge
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the traps and the zealot that runs through the arena yea

distant shadow
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that's all the script stuff that it's got. hp drain is just, this isn't the actual code, but
if: playerAlive
then: whack(99), wait 5sec

red tinsel
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please tell me the actual function is called whack

distant shadow
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it is not

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I apologize for any emotional distress this may cause.

red tinsel
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unfortunate, disastrous, showstarting, depessing

stuck hinge
red tinsel
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shaman is literally the only reason i got myself a white horse

distant shadow
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I guess if you really want to call this a gimmick, the snares and clones get faster as the zealot's health decreases at certain points, which I think I've mentioned before but I'm not sure

stuck hinge
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first time I’m hearing

red tinsel
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yeah it becomes noticeable on builds that don't glass zealot to death in 5s

distant shadow
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yeah, the way it works is every 20% health zealot loses his script stuff gets faster, and clones activate at half health

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so it's
80% health: snares speed up
60% health: snares speed up further
50% health: clones begin
40% health: snares speed up yet again, clones speed up
20% health: snares speed up ludicrously, clones speed up further

red tinsel
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selvut how realizeable would it be to make panic zealot apply whack(99) on boss spawn and apply a status effect that prevents health gain like corrupted does

stuck hinge
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good idea possibly

thorn turtle
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nuke it or dodge tf

red tinsel
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i only like this idea because while it would make panic zealot harder, it would make it agony for everyone equally

red tinsel
thorn turtle
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ongod

red tinsel
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can we have Mechanic Zealot after Dr. Legendary in LI that deals 100% true damage every 10s 😳

distant shadow
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okay so it looks like according to my talks with lex and notes

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snares start off appearing every 30 seconds- the snares themselves linger for 15 seconds and have a small period of 2 seconds when they spawn that they can't trigger, so that you don't get one spawning on top of you and cheaply activate
at 80% health they appear every 27 seconds
at 60% health they appear every 25 seconds
at 40% health they appear every 22 seconds
at 20% health they appear every 20 seconds

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but it looks like I misremembered about the clones, they only speed up once instead of twice. at 50% health one immediately appears then they show up every 15 seconds after that, and at 20% health it's every 10 seconds

thorn turtle
red tinsel
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fine.... 200% true damage is oaky as well...

muted barn
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100% true damage after I use a single armor tome 🤯

somber girder
red tinsel
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so?

somber girder
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You don't need high walkspeed or mana regen to avoid it at all

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Though, admittedly a lot of The Nameless' attacks can just be avoided with high walkspeed

red tinsel
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sure i can reword it to "mana,ws or distance check" but point still stands that it's kinda not interesting

somber girder
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which unfortunately makes a lot of the fight a check to see if you're playing archer

heady widget
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the entirety of tna is either WS check or how good can you fly check

somber girder
red tinsel
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defend the void hole:

heady widget
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defend the void hole is also a mobility check as far as im concerned, the only difficulty there is waiting out all the waves of mobs after you speedrun the 4 voidholes in 1 minute

sonic vale
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I mean you could just have 2-3 people defend while 1-2 person does all the tasks

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since there's like a hard 2 min time frame until despairing crawler

red tinsel
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i have not once had the circumstance that doing the four tasks even alone took longer than 2 minutes

heady widget
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honestly the despairing crawler should spawn as soon as the 4th voidhole is deposited

finite zinc
woeful mist
woeful mist
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first time ive seen that 🥺

tardy vortex
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One idea is make it so they don't come back (idk if they do I see the slides facing away from the eye sometimes) and make it faster overall as it's just slow

woeful mist
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youre absolutely 100% sure

like in all the time the eye's been out

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those things were never true?

stuck hinge
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they tried to remove the safe spot by putting invisible blocks under the arch but they didnt realize that just standing in the general vicinity of that area is still safe anyways

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good thing honestly, the eyes have really shitty hitboxes and even if you arent standing underneath them you can still take damage

woeful mist
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definitely wont complain about there being a safe spot

stuck hinge
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the eye laser phase could be more difficult it just exists to waste time currently

woeful mist
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agreed

foggy kindle
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(Yes this build no longer works but Eye still gets melted and you spend more time waiting than actually fighting it)

tardy vortex
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Yeah I do understand the eye beams are trying to not allow any one spot to be possible to go full afk, but imho there is better ways to do it

foggy kindle
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Just speed them up

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Or make them truly random instead of a set path that lets you afk for half of it

mossy tartan
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super ultra deluxe boss rush except none of it feels fair

image.png
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gonna make me fight all 8 corrupt dungeon bosses at once with doubled spell speed

lunar yacht
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Death Wish wynncraft class gamemode

rich ferry
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I think content that inspires cooperation but doesn't punish solo's is the best, the challenge doesn't come from memorizing a bosses spell pattern its communicating with your fellow man. I think the Nest of the Grootslangs stage where you build the tower in the center by completing either a boss fight memorization game or mini puzzle is a great way to create a cooperative environment. With a few tweaks other encounters can have similar cohesion requirements with adding more need to communicate.

rough pawn
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I do agree on some fun coming from teamplay (which is also why i feel like there should be more variety in viable classes) but there is just as much fun to be had from memorizing boss spell patterns and telegraphed attack cues since its what the entierty of the souls genre is built off of
Not to mention the added challenge that comes into play when your team needs to react accordingly to said attacks

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And on the topic of viable classes, we desperately need more variety in viable classes

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Early 2.0 there used to be the paladin tank with 3 dps strategy for greg which was really nice to see because it was just 4 dps in every single other raid before

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And then paladin got nerfed making it unable to tank without sacrificing a necklace slot

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I dont understand why they punished teamplay

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It might have been a bit of a cheese but they could have just rebalanced it instead of making the tank unable to tank

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And now in most raids its just 4 dps classes barfing out spells until the boss dies

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Basically what im trying to say is that we need more support and tank classes/archetypes that are viable for proper teamwork in raids instead of the raid room just forcing people to work as a team

harsh mountain
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^^

timber stag
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maybe adding some splitted damage mechanics to the boss would help teamplay, cuz having a pretty tanky team with healer is great against that kind of mechanics
(what I mean by splitted damage mechanics is like : the boss starts an attack on one people, if other people are under the range of the attack, the damages are splitted and the one who was supposed to die ends up surviving)

harsh mountain
#

i feel like that encourages everyone to be a tank though

timber stag
timber stag
tardy vortex
#

Split damage isn’t very fair in some cases, however most mmos for parties have damage bonus or defense bonus for healers

However needing a healer is skill issue

timber stag
#

what if it's just a %hp of the boss and it just makes you need to use (example) 10 pots on the whole boss for this specific mechanic cuz you have no healer ?

tardy vortex
#

But why

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having a soak mechanic is fine, dmg split between all ppl in a radius + forces positioning

timber stag
#

uhh I'm not sure if what I said was clear : I mean that if it occurrs only, let's say every 25% of the boss then a party that has 0 healer can just drink pots to do the raid and only gets punished in their sustainability if they have no healer in the team

tardy vortex
#

But why

timber stag
#

because it gives a reason for healer to exist without having to use a facetank in the team ,xD

tardy vortex
#

Healers aren’t needed because wynn health pools don’t justify it

#

Tanks have their own hpr, dps either have sustain or are glass canons

#

Healers heal more than people need, let’s say 5k heals on someone with 10k hp who themselves is restoring most of their hp

#

If the game was balanced around larger numbers maybe

#

in the cases I die, it’s usually burst damage which a healer wouldn’t have done much for

#

Healers don’t bring damage (obviously), so they just overall hurt the party

#

I’m all for healers becoming standard, I think it’s good tanks have a use finally, but punishing all the other players for no reason isn’t the way to do it

timber stag
#

having to use pots isn't really a hard punish, it just makes your work harder without being unfair

tardy vortex
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Pots aren’t fun, not everyone uses them, it just forces a mechanic for the sake of one

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I’m all for brutal bosses, but forces consumables isn’t difficulty it’s just annoying

timber stag
#

I mean, if you have 0 sustain, that's your problem on needing pots to heal damages

tardy vortex
#

How about making debuffs to players a thing and then healers would return to cleanse 🤯

nova burrow
#

The only place where healers are actually effective is guild wars

timber stag
nova burrow
harsh mountain
#

healers not existing could be patched by making healers into a support archetype by bundling buffs together with the heal

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or you could patch wynn's low health pools by letting healer archetypes overheal to some upper limit

nova burrow
harsh mountain
#

yeah like that but more maybe

#

coz like rn buffs dont feel all that exclusive to healers

#

its just a thing that they have and other archetypes also have

nova burrow
timber stag
harsh mountain
#

then in theory support archetypes should already be fine

#

their numbers probably just need rebalancing

timber stag
#

yea it's pretty much just a damage balancing

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cuz a hard tank has in general 8 to 10 times the hp a glass-cannon has, it's super hard to balance

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indeed, rn my idea is honestly bad cuz if you make a splitted-damage mechanic that a party with 2 glass cannon can survive, you either make it based on %hp for all parties member (works but avoids the problem) or you leave opened the door for braindead face-tanking (then you have to make facetanking impossible on the other phases of the boss but ehhhh...)

echo pawn
#

Tbh the solution to team play is hard to understand without knowing the developer vision
Like specialized roles/holy trinity are actually pretty much dead in modern MMOs (tanks are macho DPS, healers are egirl/femboy DPS, dps is extreme DPS), the genre itself is also dying
Most of the 'socialization' in games has shifted outside of the game (i.e. to discord), and within the game most players just want instant gratification not progression (which is why mobas/battle royales are so popular)
I think there's a very good chanced Salted and the other head devs have a non-MMO vision for wynncraft (single player RPG w/ group content), although they'll probably keep branding it as an MMO (actually a lot like FFXIV)
The massive damage buffs in 2.0 aren't an accident, they aren't that stupid, it's most likely a transition to a new model of 'VOMIT MASSIVE DAMAGE #s WOW' with an impatient audience in mind
Which is disappointing to me since I'd like wynn to have satisfying long-term gameplay, but maybe it could help the server compete for monetization?

echo pawn
# timber stag indeed, rn my idea is honestly bad cuz if you make a splitted-damage mechanic th...

Also just a thought: 'braindead face-tanking' only comes from bad tanking system implementation
Tanks are only braindead when you make their kit passive resistance + regen + taunt button, if you force them to use timing/counters it can easily be a very skill-based role (like in Tera)
Either way mechanics are only a small part of tanking, in most cases tanks are the 'raid leader' by default and it's more about game knowledge/watching your party than '500 APM INCREDIBLE SKILL'

timber stag
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yea I'm talking about shaman acolyte absolution and monster lightbender, both those don't have any timing thinking into their kit and are just "facetanking until I take too much damage, then I get out and come back when I'm full hp"

desert sparrow
#

but ye when it still workrd it was way too op/borin cuz u could just face tank until scary purple circles come out

#

no real skill even with taunt bc aggro mechanics force u to cast it like every other secod

nova burrow
desert sparrow
#

💀

distant shadow
somber girder
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☝️ 2.0 super buffed every player

distant shadow
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like, the thought of just, straight-up halving all the % values got brought up in IM chat at one point. we all sort of collectively agreed that it can't happen just because that's absolutely insane but, like...

#

the fact we were considering it at all should show that we really don't want damage to be this high

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claiming it with such certainty to be Developer Intent is just completely incorrect.

somber girder
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tl;dr this is mega wrong

Screenshot_20230207-1451332.png
brisk slate
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(real)

waxen sigil
#

Can we Have one Like the Infested Pit boss but The Totem Is required Instead of Optional Defeat

cosmic kelp
cosmic kelp
stuck hinge
# echo pawn Tbh the solution to team play is hard to understand without knowing the develope...

i think it's important to take into account what type of game wynncraft is and has been for years

i dont think a lot of people take into consideration that wynn is realistically mainly a single player game with multiplayer elements sprinkled in, and so trying to balance classes/archetypes about the "traditional" mmorpg holy trinity style just doesnt really work well. you can go through the game just fine by yourself and the only time where you're actually forced to play with others is in raids, and so all classes typically are also balanced to work well enough and deal enough damage by themselves. do i think harder multiplayer content and raids could still incorporate these facets more/better? sure, but i still think it's something important to note

i think criticizing wynn calling itself an mmorpg when it really isnt is pretty fair, but i really doubt that it would stop doing so because it's mostly just for marketing anyways

...im not really sure what wynn having a strong outside of game community has to do with any of this though? lol?

tardy vortex
#

reduced healing or something would be fine though

distant shadow
cosmic kelp
stuck hinge
#

i do not like the notion that pz's main gimmick is countered entirely by 2 classes just existing

tardy vortex
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the entire game is countered entirely by 2 classes just existing

stuck hinge
#

with 2.0 you could probably argue that it's 5

woeful mist
pseudo crater
# distant shadow like, the thought of just, straight-up halving all the % values got brought up i...

league had a pretty similar update (durability update) where everyone is made tankier. "You can expect to see longer fights throughout the game, more effort required to burst down your foes, and bigger windows of opportunity for skill expression." it defo needed a lot of adjustments after (especially with healing) but it was overall healthier for the game.

league and wynncraft are different in many aspects, but it could be worth looking into. wynn might need a more radical change like halving player damage (which i personally think is a pretty good idea).

heady widget
pseudo crater
#

the difference it made is definitely not "barely"

heady widget
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Dunno I can hardly see it, of you build properly you can still nuke anyone

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Anyway let's not go into that rabbit hole that is league here

pseudo crater
#

true 💀

thorn turtle
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but its impossible to look at abilities like heart shatter and . the thirty others. and think YEAH this is balanced and should be in the game like wtf lmao

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hell yea surely this is not a part of the reason why archer is busted earlygame

image.png
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as well as the other damage mults and all the walkspeed you could ever need

pseudo crater
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etw having busted ws shouldn't be allowed ngl

#

etw having that much utility goes against the idea of etw itself

summer burrow
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Archer is not busted early game what....

#

Leveling archer is awful

tardy vortex
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It’s pretty strong

#

Leveling being bad isn’t because of archer, it feels anytime ppl level fast it gets nerfed 😢

summer burrow
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Leveling is fun and good on classes that aren't archer

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Actually warrior isn't fun my friend leveled that and assassin also wasn't fun ggwp !!

nova burrow
heady widget
#

for me quests were fun when i was new but now i hate them

nova burrow
sonic vale
thorn turtle
#

hic awesome

#

i think the largest issue on hic is that you have to constantly do profs to maintain scrap

karmic gazelle
#

hic very awesome

woeful mist
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@pseudo crater nice Vash pfp

pseudo crater
woeful mist
#

LMAO

reef ginkgo
#

hi hi first time i saw this thread heres some input from me a tryhard and challenging content enjoyer

i’d love to see more optional content thats soloable content (like boss altars/li type challenges)

honestly current solo bosses are really good examples of fair and fun challenging fights, just pls avoid some annoying pitfalls in wynn boss design, namely unpredictable oneshots and also mob debuff spell altogether because SCREW virus doctor slowness

karmic gazelle
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yeah challenging content like that is my favourite

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i love leveling and then defeating a hard boss altar

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sadly there is only 1/2 challenging boss altars at high levels

round marsh
reef ginkgo
reef ginkgo
cosmic kelp
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mob heal spell clearing negative effects is such an interesting interaction to have just popped up this update. like i dont think it did that before

gray sleet
#

its annoying though

cosmic kelp
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oh yeah for sure

#

i just think its funny

nova burrow
somber girder
#

I won't be monitoring other channels because I'm a goofball who focuses too hard on the minority of negative feedback, but I'll periodically check this thread if there's any additional feedback to the subject

atomic tulip
#

Maybe for endgame players, that have multiple accounts it could be fun to impose class rules for raids ie one of each class etc, or have a section of raid where the team decides who to split into teams to tackle different types of content-like putting the glass cannon into the group for puzzles and then letting the tankiest team members last in a survive stage, or mixing it up and forcing the exact opposite to test if your build is balanced

One thing I also think is fun from another game, I play tft where you can make it so few of your games are similar because so many different buffs are available, so maybe content that ends up way more repeatable as the combination of a few more choices compounds and means fights can be different?

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I think replayability is a big thing for endgame

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Could it manifest as raid buffs on steroids? Idk

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Maybe anti teamwork portions where you have to work against people? (but maybe don't make this too comat focused because then it will just become who sweated for the op build and one taps everyone)

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Or maybe rotating weathers , where certain archetypes are buffed on a certain day

somber girder
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If you want to see how imposing a "1 of each class" rule goes, check how people enjoyed it in Overwatch 1

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(they did not and it created a horrible queue)

reef ginkgo
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just kidding wynn goats is just 3x crafted divzer and 1x hero

woeful mist
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(this message is directed towards videogamedunkey)

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i love him but holy fucking balls his takes on overwatch are some of the worst ive ever seen

somber girder
#

damn... 💔 If only they were inaccurate...

#

anyways, with the diversity of class builds, it might be hard to even do a system like that

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Sure, you could have it be like "you must have a warrior in your party" but there's so much variety to every class and archetype

#

Unless you're playing Morph

image-5.png
harsh mountain
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i figure its more like let each class have an archetype that fills each role, then make it such that each role does something uniquely useful in a raid

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one way that could be done would be by making some enemies uniquely weak to some roles

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e.g
enemy experienced doubled debuff effects - incentivises a support archetype
enemy deals % current health dmg - incentivises a healer support or a tank

tardy vortex
#

wynn is very unusual for NOT using stat debuffs (If there is like one case where it does cool, I mean in general)

tardy vortex
harsh mountain
#

and for debuffs i was referring to stuff applied by abilities e.g winded or ice snake's slow

timber stag
#

even if we don't talk about archetypes, different weapon & stats makes builds so different that it'd be impossible to know what's the gameplay of a player

harsh mountain
#

weapons and stats yes but ability nodes can be controlled very easily

#

as variable as a player's ability tree can be, if a node is useful players will take it

timber stag
harsh mountain
#

in other words if you give a node a use then players will take it too

harsh mountain
timber stag
#

this kind of mechanic is killing monster arcanist for example

harsh mountain
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and use smth else to incentivise tank

timber stag
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aren't glass cannon meta enough ?

harsh mountain
#

i'm not talking anyth about meta or non meta

#

this is about incentivising build diversity in multiplayer scenarios

harsh mountain
harsh mountain
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its hard to incentivise a particular class, and its hard to make each class fall into a role without making single player all weird

timber stag
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fair point, but the game is already oriented in glass-cannon strategies so just doing nothing new is enough xD

harsh mountain
#

so my suggestion was make the archetypes play into roles rather than making the classes into roles

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but then wynn has the issue of most things not needing more than just dps

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which is why i brought up role-specific enemy weaknesses

summer burrow
nova burrow
summer burrow
#

I could understand why leveling 1 class through quests is fun but the 2nd and so on is literally the same experience

muted barn
#

I agree with you though, did run through 99% of the quests on a first class, then the rest were just exclusively dungeons to level

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(i dislike mob grinding)

woeful mist
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I have done every wynn quest 6+ times

somber girder
#

what about Eye of The Storm and Frost Bitten and Hollow Sirene and Lord Of The Clock 🤓 idknerd

thorn turtle
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damn you guys havent completed "test" yet

woeful mist
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don’t think i got to them in my shaman and 2nd warrior before they were removed

thorn turtle
#

frost bitten is gone??? what

#

despair

karmic gazelle
#

It's just frost bite

stuck hinge
#

it just got reworked yea

cosmic kelp
#

"just"

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it was reworked in 1.18 :)

stuck hinge
#

i meant just as in it wasnt deleted

tardy vortex
#

I CANNOT believe they reworked prison story (just now)

cosmic kelp
#

fr

karmic gazelle
#

I joined in 1.20 anyway I know it got reworked a while ago

tardy vortex
#

What’s next??? Eye of the storm??

karmic gazelle
#

Hollow Serene

tardy vortex
#

I swear, one of these days ima login and something cool will be removed! Like relic shrines could be gone... TMRW!!

sand aspen
karmic gazelle
#

This was like 5 months ago

tardy vortex
#

All my homies loved high tier powder shrines

thorn turtle
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that shit was like 10le per