#Buffing Manachism

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

narrow scroll
#

The skill is cool and works great early game but when you have say 150 mana 10 mana suddenly doesn't seem like a good trade off for taking a hit, doubly so late game where taking a hit without shield hurts a lot even with bulky builds.
(Since it has to be below 5% of your max hp it's also tricky to get to proc late game if you don't have shield up)
So a simple buff that still allows it stay as it is for lower level players is to make it be 10% of your max mana when you take a hit. This makes it more worthwhile to spec into late game without being OP earlygame.
I'm a paladin player and this is probably the most underpowered ability on the paladin tree.
(Besides shield strike lmao, should be worked into a more holy smite uppercut upgrade tbh)

ruby lichen
#

as someone who likes to play tank every now and again its already pretty damn strong

#

its not that noticable since it doesnt have a visual effect or anything but you can easily tell the difference when spamming spells normally compared to getting pounded on by multiple mobs

#

since it only has a 1s cooldown its already =10mr/s which in armor stats is 50mr/s which is pretty damn huge

#

wait my cacualtion might be botched

narrow scroll
#

Yeah if your mana pool isn't super high (which is never the case) it's great. 10 mana is a lot while progressing. When your pool is like 150 and you're not a pure tank 10 can seem not worth for having to be able to tank a hit and lose 5% max hp. Changing it to % would just make a bit more consistent throughout all stages was the thought processes

#

Also yeah it's kinda botched because without shield some hits in raids will do more than 5% of your max hp

ruby lichen
#

nvm yeah it is 50mr when getting hit all the time

narrow scroll
#

Which will drain you quick endgame

ruby lichen
#

yes sure you arent gonna get 50mr all the time but 50mr at its full power is pretty damn insane

#

even at half power is 25mr

#

most of the time all you need is a random fast hitting ranged mob for it to do its thing

narrow scroll
#

Fair point. But I was trying to make it more worth to spec into for players that aren't tanks, it's already super useful for hyper tanky builds

ruby lichen
#

but yeah i can agree on it being a bit not great on normal builds compared to the hpr tank build i was using

#

i just use a tank build using tanky armor parts without a major -sd

narrow scroll
#

Yeah that's the intent for the buff. For it be more versatile on a varied of builds. Say you have 150 mana cuz of your int. making it 10% would mean 15 mana on taking a hit below 5% max hp (which still requires shield if you're a normal build) compared to the current 15 but would still be 10 mana for newer players at 100 mana

#

Shield is also on a 15s cooldown so it wouldn't be super bustingly op and tanks are just going to spam taunt anyway

ruby lichen
#

it would be nice for it to be more usable on nomal builds but im not sure how you would be able to buff this without hyperbuffing tank builds

sullen river
#

it's not supposed to carry your mana, it's supposed to give a little extra, I don't really think it needs to scale since it's supposed to be weaker, it's nice to have, but if you're having mana problems I would switch up your build and if you aren't having mana problems why even request this

narrow scroll
#

When did I ever say it should carry your mana

ruby lichen
#

increasing the hp range would give tank builds even more trigger chances and straight up increasing the mana would just striaght up buff it

sullen river
#

I think giving you 10% of your mana would be pretty nuts

narrow scroll
#

Remember. You have to take less than 5% of your max hp.

sullen river
#

you didn't say that, but I think it's fine how it is

ruby lichen
#

and im not too sure if a normal build should be adding points that deep into a tank archetype

sullen river
#

I think buffing it too much would definitely make it carry your mana idk

#

yeah you shouldn't have manachism unless you're tanking in which case you're probably not spell spamming anyways

#

you'll throw up a mantle and give your allies radiance and ragnarok

ruby lichen
#

it already carries your mana on tank builds so buffing it even more would just be just way too overpowered

#

instead of this being reworked, the entierty of paladin should be reworked

#

paladin is just made up of way too much passive skills instead of active ones

sullen river
#

honestly I think that part's fine, passive skills are pretty nice

narrow scroll
#

Okay so let's look at it from a bit of a number's perspective

Below 5% of your max hp is the amount of damage you need to take to proc manachism
Shield is on a 20s cooldown.

So you're only getting 3 procs max off of manachism. 30 mana in a 150 pool isn't a lot, esp if you're waiting for your spell cost to reset after a spell spam session.

In reality for say paladin bmonk builds (That intend to use burning heart and bash) manachism is hard to proc. The whole idea is to make it so if you do proc it to give a little bit more mana. Not to carry the mana. Make it more worthwhile to spec into for non tanks.

sullen river
#

30 mana in a 150 pool is a ton

narrow scroll
#

You'd just skip manachism currently

ruby lichen
sullen river
#

ye true

ruby lichen
#

which also basically makes paladin a lot more boring

narrow scroll
#

I agree bout the passives overload, I think there should be more locking choices in warrior's skill tree. Paladin espiscally. Let us have the choice between a "Protector" paladin and a "Smiting" Paladin

sullen river
#

smiting paladin?

ruby lichen
narrow scroll
#

Paladins are often know to have holy magic to "Smite" indefiels

sullen river
#

battle monks shouldn't be taking manachism

ruby lichen
#

like the whole thing about bmonk is to fly around the enemy dodging hits while dealing damage, not getting hit

sullen river
#

and paladin shouldn't be an offensive option unless they wanna toss the tank thing

narrow scroll
#

That's what having the choices would do hei. You have the choice between an offensive paladin focused around fire or the tank paladin

#

To make use of stuff like burning heart and flaming uppercut

sullen river
#

that's not how archetypes are supposed to work though

ruby lichen
#

that would be like a archetype of a archetype

sullen river
#

there shouldn't be 2 different paths down one archetype

ruby lichen
#

might as well just add another archetype at that point

sullen river
#

yeah dividing archetypes is not it I gotta say

narrow scroll
#

Why would it need to be a split archetype though lol

ruby lichen
#

for damage you go bmonk or fallen

sullen river
#

what

ruby lichen
#

this would just make paladin like the mess trickster is

sullen river
#

if you want to have a smiting paladin and a tank paladin what would the tree look like

ruby lichen
#

no proper direction with a nonexistant playstyle or what you even are supposed to do

narrow scroll
#

God asassin's tree is a MESS

ruby lichen
#

and this would make paladins tree a mess too

sullen river
#

correct but more than that I think the archetypes are just bad

ruby lichen
#

assassin has a lot of problems im not gonna deal with talking about here

sullen river
#

makes sense

#

but yeah I don't think paladin's tree should be divided into offense and defense

ruby lichen
narrow scroll
#

Fr lol

ruby lichen
#

yeah paladin is the tank archetype

narrow scroll
#

But I would like to see a fire based uppercut upgrade conversion

ruby lichen
#

that would fit better somewhere else like fallen

sullen river
#

^

narrow scroll
#

Burning heart:

ruby lichen
#

burining heart doesnt fit paladin

sullen river
#

why does it need fire conversion what spell weapon does warrior have

ruby lichen
#

oh wait

sullen river
#

that's fire damage

ruby lichen
#

nvm burning heart is the hp fire upgrade thing

sullen river
#

I think too many ele conversions are just super unnecessary and messy

ruby lichen
#

i was thinking about flaming uppercut

sullen river
#

yeah you get fire damage based on bonus id health

narrow scroll
#

^

#

Which is why I'm saying fire upgrade later in paladin tree, synergizes with this

sullen river
#

I think that's too much damage for a tank tree

ruby lichen
#

paladin is a tank

sullen river
#

yeah the fact that burning heart is a thing at all is stupid to me

ruby lichen
#

its just a damage boost skill for tank fire weapon users

narrow scroll
#

I'm just saying it would allow a bit of diversity. Allow a sort of "Bruiser" build to show up. It has good hp and good damage, but doesn't excel in either.
(I'm actually trying to make one on my current warrior)

sullen river
#

that's palamonk

narrow scroll
#

I love how we've gotten off track lol

ruby lichen
#

or bmonk and paladin

narrow scroll
#

Maybe not everyone wants to do fallen >.>

ruby lichen
#

at this point you might as well start asking for fully customized archetypes for every class

sullen river
narrow scroll
#

Okay but about burning heart being on paladin is so pure paladin users can do game content like dungeons without it being awful lol. It's like how fallen has some recovery abilities. (Intoxicating blood for example)

sullen river
#

well being a tank in a pve game is really only a good idea typically if you're in a team situation

narrow scroll
#

The archetype doesn't become super narrow and focused and players can choose to opt into it. That was the idea for the fire uppercut upgrade and manachism tweak orginally

sullen river
#

I constantly tell people who are looking to buy guardian that they really shouldn't unless they wanna do wars or maybe raids, it's built to be an archetype with insane EHP and survivability and effectively no damage, that's what tank's designed to be and most builds give up mana for more defense and HP which makes manachism trigger a lot easier and allows you to have decent mana despite building very little (brought the ability back into the discussion lol)

narrow scroll
#

Though I do appreciate you guys actually partaking in civil discussion with points of your own lol. I've gotten rude as hell people before for suggesting a mere idea

ruby lichen
sullen river
#

Same to you, it's pretty hard to find civil people in these threads a lot of the time

ruby lichen
#

i just mostly get enjoyment off of making nanomachines jokes

sullen river
#

I used to tank in wars, but now I just straight up refuse to

ruby lichen
#

and yeah its nice to have a proper convo instead of one person starting to shit talk their way through

sullen river
#

mhm

#

honestly I'm still in the boat of people who don't like the fact that the mana pool can be increased, I miss old intel

narrow scroll
#

Manachism was probably designed around old intel tbh, then they changed intel and didn't change manachism to compensate

sullen river
#

I don't think so honestly 10 mana is pretty good even with 180 mana pool

narrow scroll
#

Which is why it seems underwhelming for anyone that isn't above averagely tanky

#

If you're not a pure tank you'd only take like 1-2 stray hits right?

#

Let the pure tank do their job

sullen river
#

if you're not playing full tank you probably don't need manachism since you'll have whirlwind strike most likely, but if you are full tank you're gonna be taking a lot of hits

#

manachism is built around the full tank archetype and while you can mix and match the archetypes are built around one playstyle

narrow scroll
#

Yeah I just manachism to be slightly more useable for non tanky builds, that was the original merit of the idea.
As say a 180 mana warrior is only going to be getting 5.5% of their mana back for taking a hit. That's not really looking like it's a good option. You'd have to take 3 hits to get anything out of it.

Making it 10% would make it a decent option but not to strong. Without ruining earlygame as it's great when your pool is low.

Alternatively we could make it so the amount of mana regained scales off of a stat? Eevee_think

ruby lichen
narrow scroll
#

If 10% still sounds really ridiculous

ruby lichen
#

no -costs with higher intel so that bonus mr would have been a lot more useful

sullen river
#

my only issue here is that non tanky builds shouldn't be dipping that far into paladin, if you don't wanna be tanky then I'd choose another archetype, it's built around being tanky and I think it does what it's meant to

narrow scroll
#

It's only 3 paladin archetype needed (Which most players will get going for mythril skin likely)

#

But yeah for being tanky it does do what it's needed to, you are absolute right about that

sullen river
#

manachism is too expensive

narrow scroll
#

Yeah completely skirting around it. Just trying to promote diversity a lil at the end of the day and making more than 10 mana late game somehow would do that'

#

Yep for what it provides

sullen river
#

well technically yeah because if you're using whirlwind it provides nothing

narrow scroll
#

Which you need to get to smth like axe kick

sullen river
#

the only way you're forced into manachism is if you take provoke which only tank builds want just like only tank builds want manachism since it's built for tanks since they usually sacrifice mana for ehp and that allows more consistent manachism procs every second which ends up being a lot of mana

narrow scroll
#

I honestly hate how whirlwind kills your momentum if you're not specced into aerodynamics/doing uppercut surfing

sullen river
#

if you're not going full tank and going into damage at least somewhat you should be taking wws

#

I mean you should take aerodynamics no matter what

#

being able to control charge is really important in every scenario

narrow scroll
#

Aerodyanmics honestly ruins my ryhtm lol

#

I've been managing fine without it on my warriors

#

But skirting around whirlwind strike causes your tree to look like this lmao

image.png
sullen river
#

yeah I would take aero and wws I think they're both definitely net gains

#

the way you're supposed to play offensive warrior is by circling your opponent with wws or by crashing into them with flying kick then using wws to boost yourself back up making you harder to hit

#

any warrior build that's focused on offense should be playing like that tbh, wws is just too good not to take

narrow scroll
#

Example when I doing qira: I just want to get out of a situation. So I was spamming charge to get out of her webs while holding A&W. Aerodynamics and it's curving made me go from bad spot A to Bad spot B and I died. I swapped aerodyanmics off and the same situation happened again, no curving made me able to just get into a safe spot

sullen river
#

well with aerodynamics you choose where you go, you move with your cursor

#

if you move your mouse to the left you'll steer left

narrow scroll
#

Yeah and I was looking towards where I was pushing my movement

#

Went out of the frying pan into the fire.

sullen river
#

that's really weird

narrow scroll
#

It's just cases like that where aerodynamics did more harm for me than good while no direction helped more. But for like lootrunning and general travel? Fun as shit.

#

Having to hold shift while doing WS to not go up just kills momentum

sullen river
#

well you can choose to not change direction I don't understand what happened

#

you charge where you're looking when you start charging anyways

narrow scroll
#

I basically inputted two charges during the spam

sullen river
#

and if you keep looking forwards you won't turn

#

do you play warrior in F5? I think that improves gameplay a lot

narrow scroll
#

We're getting off topic, we should go to wynncraft at this point lol

sullen river
#

it's kind of on topic

#

we're talking about the play style that doesn't want manachism and therefore doesn't need a buff to it smile

narrow scroll
#

Fair enough but the way I'm playing this warrior whirldwind is counter intuitive and ruins momentum

sullen river
#

makes sense

narrow scroll
#

Now picture if that was a boss, all my momentum is gone and I'm take massive damage

sullen river
#

ok well I was gonna ask to see how you play warrior so this is really helpful

narrow scroll
#

And like holding crouch is just going to get me smacked even harder

sullen river
#

what you're really supposed to do is alternate between uppercut and charge with wws and because of the 360 aoe and pretty decent range you can circle just about everything, deal good damage and not be hit

#

yeah I don't use crouch unless I'm charge spamming

#

if you're down I could stream me playing warrior in a few minutes in LI or something, I think it's probably the best way to play offensive warrior and it's a lot safer

narrow scroll
#

Yeah this build isn't supposed to be dancing round bosses. It's supposed to attack and deal great damage and survive the aftermath if you use to much mana, come back stronger. Never saw a warrior build like that so I wanted to make one

sullen river
#

I think dancing around bosses does do pretty good damage tbh

narrow scroll
#

Yeah I've played the dancing build

#

It's fun but I wanted to make something different and whirlwind just goes against this lol

sullen river
#

ah that's fair

narrow scroll
#

And like it's been pretty effective. I beat qira hive pre lv90

sullen river
#

that sounds pretty good

#

have you used the new method in like LI? I think for the most part LI is a good baseline for builds and playstyles

narrow scroll
#

I don't believe so

sullen river
#

I would give it a try in LI then and if it works great if it doesn't then I'd maybe change the build around or practice mechanics a bit more, but one thing I will say is that I think the only reason warrior is good this update is because of wws

#

I think without wws warrior is similar to assassin

#

but I do applaud trying to make different builds and playstyles that how you advance your game knowledge and building skills a lot more

dapper island
hasty belfry
#

given that this is a paladin archetype skill and is already quite strong when used well, it doesn't really make sense to buff it even further so its strong on glassy builds too

west isle
#

agree

random herald
#

Manachism is good in extremely tanky builds but I agree that it'd be much less niche if it was buffed to 10%