The Canary Calls Quest

[nova moth]

who did it, who made this

[lusty crystal]

ah yes

can you see my message?

[nova moth]

yeah

[lusty crystal]

nice.

So here we go again:

TLDR: Quest feels terrible cause of the minecart section. Rest is fine. The mechanics for the carts are just wrong. Please make an option to skip that instantly.

[willow widget]

Glitched

[willow widget]

Its fine wdym?

[nova moth]

this revelation really grinds my gears

[willow widget]

Theyre slightly janky but without lag it works fine as soon as you figure it out

Mainly you need to aim upwards and near directly at it

Like, 90 degrees from your track or whatever

[lusty crystal]

I see that different. I did that quest on several classes by now and i cant stand it. Must be on my top 3 worst mechanics ever.

[willow widget]

Well idk then, I found it pretty fun and I finish it with only 2 or 3 fails

Whats the main issues?

Cause its all pretty simple

[lusty crystal]

I really dislike it. Spoke with other about it and they agreed. So i thought there might be more thinking like that. Thats why i posted here. Good for you, that you like it. I just wish it to be skippable faster than it is now. No need to discredit now by calling it easy.

[willow widget]

I just would like to know what are the main struggles

I like it because of needing quick timing and turning quickly to the right directions

[lusty crystal]

It feels yank. The jumps are inaccurate, the flying is done by pressing the speedup button and not the jump one. Thats just counter intuitive. The speedup and jump buttons should be reverted. There are 2 sections where you can get stuck very easy. Several times where the minecart suddenly switches directions for no reason. If you press jump twice while in air, you instantly jump off the next rail. There is 1 section where the rail is too short and you got to loop the circle to get enough speed which breaks the flow of gameplay. You need to turn so far to the sides to jump off, that your vision blurs which also disrupts the ease of vision and flow of gameplay.

I could list more... and thats only for a 3 min section of gameplay.

[willow widget]

Those seem like small things, lets see..

Wouldnt having the jump button have to be held make you jump as soon as you land? Making it worse?

[lusty crystal]

Those are not small things.

I think thats the reason why they implemented it that way. But instead they should have just not made the gliding part if you dont have controls for it.

[cedar shoal]

@lusty crystal has leveled up! (6 ➜ 7)

[willow widget]

I think the gliding adds much more variety and fun to it

Since it allows turns mid air, and gives a bit of control over jumps

[lusty crystal]

As i said, if you like it, good for you.

[willow widget]

And the issue is that it feels wrong?

And as you said, theres a clear reason for it

“Stuck very easy” This… doesnt provide anything

“Breaks flow of gameplay” for a little bit of waiting, I agree it drags it down slightly but its not a massive issue, and gives a bit of breathing space imo

Vision blurr..???

Are you using shaders or something?

[lusty crystal]

no. also, what is your problem with others having an own opinion? xd i didnt personally attack you, did i?

[willow widget]

Im trying to understand your point, and see if theres actaul large issues that could be solved

And again, thats beside the point.. what do you mean by vision blur?

Theres tons of stuff that needs wuick turning in wynn

[lusty crystal]

Well, to jump from railing to railing consistently you need to turn your vision by 90 degree in fast successions. That blurs vision

[willow widget]

I am spinning as fast as i can in game

There is literally no added blur if thats what you mean

[lusty crystal]

Im not talking about motion blur.

[willow widget]

Ah, well.. what makes this different than.. almost any other first person fighting game in existence?

If you feel extremely disorientating by a lot of turning, then fine i can see the issue

[lusty crystal]

what? literally any game (or game section) in existance with forced camera perspectives such as this one are terrible and hated.

[willow widget]

Forced camera perspectives????

[lusty crystal]

turning left and right by 90 / 180 degree in minecraft is a forced perspective change.

[willow widget]

You dont need to turn perfectly.

[lusty crystal]

you dont. but if you want to be consistend you kinda do.

[willow widget]

Literally every first person game needing quick large turns being hated is something that i do not believe

[lusty crystal]

It actually feels like underwater tomb raider 1 sections. if you know what i mean

[willow widget]

Also like, you have slight amounts of time to readjust and do these turns

And you can slow down as well

[lusty crystal]

As i said, disruptive gameplay. just feels bad

[unkempt knoll]

By far the best quest

[willow widget]

Slowing doen feels bad, youre phrasing it like its a massive deal

Feels a bit worse sure, but were looking at massive issues of gameplay here

Not “feels wrong I guess”

And gliding exists

Which allows turns and readjustment mid air, giving you much more time to readjust

You can utilise this!

[lusty crystal]

But there are parts where you cant jump jump off and glide to the next. And in addition to that, gliding is on a counter intuitive input which makes you missclick it alot.

[willow widget]

If you misclick ur just way too used to games that use another control setup..

Which isnt most people I would say

[lusty crystal]

no im not cause i didnt play other games in some time.

[willow widget]

Yes, and there you have a lot of control, and youre able to turn easily

Errr, I dont get the issue with the first part

[versed iron]

question, what ping do you get to the server

[willow widget]

Well.. maybe you cant adapt to controls quickly???????

[lusty crystal]

idk, id say< 30-60. living in central europe

[versed iron]

huh, wow

getting that good of ping whilst living in europe

[lusty crystal]

Would you finally stop to use arguments based on insulting or discrediting me all the time?

[versed iron]

anyways 99% of the complaints i had seen regarding the minecart section (which i absolutely love) and its inaccuracy have been made from those with consistent 100+ ping either from living in entirely different regions or simply having bad internet which also surprise surprise affects other sort of parkour segments like those found in lexdale witch trials/corrupted undergrowth ruins since bad ping and its delays really affects the timing

since you have good ping to the server that obviously doesnt apply and personally i have never found an issue with it

[willow widget]

Its not meant to come off that way, sorry

More of point out what could of caused these issues

[versed iron]

i dont really know what to say then since most people i know with <100 ping have all been just fine with it

[lusty crystal]

I rolled out the point of me being too bad for it after i heared many people complain about this section. I have also played alot of games in my life so far. Atleast 30k hours in total. I regulary compete for the hgighest ranks in games such as SC2, league ... id think my reactions are on the upper side of the scale.

[willow widget]

Why do you think youre left instead of right clicking to glide?

[lusty crystal]

Also i dont want it to be removed. I just ask for the skip option to be avalibly fastert than it is now. Currently you got to drive off the cliff for about 10 min untill it appeares.

[versed iron]

that's pretty fair

[willow widget]

Yeah alright

[lusty crystal]

I feel the keys for speed / jump are inverted. Also the key for glide should not be on the boost but on a key related to jumping. HOWEVER i reverted those myself in mouse options and the other points still hold.

[willow widget]

I answered to those already

Stuck easily: need more context
Switch directions: hm, issue that could be resolved
Jump twice in the air: easy to avoid unless you run into the first issue
Looping: decently easy to not loop, even if you do its not a big issue because it still flows.
Having to turn???: discusses this already, you have quite a lot of time to adjust + using glide works. Glide is used in a section: how is this a counterpoint? Glide control counter intuitive: this is just a buzzword you threw in which has no meaning, why is it counter intuitive? No answer yet

Pressing boost mid air stopping your momentum mught be counter intuitive

If you feel it feels wrong, sure, but thats a overall you thing. Unless theres others that have said it I havent seen this complaint at all anywhere

[lusty crystal]

Well even if you think those points are not a problem for you. they still hold for me. i do not enjoy the gameplay and mechanics of this part and see deep problems in its core.

[willow widget]

This seems to mostly revolve around the controls feeling inverted.

[lusty crystal]

yeah. the controls are one of the biggest flaws in my opinion.

[willow widget]

And “in its core” is just… no? Core as core concept: there isnt any issue with its concept, what ruins it is jank and outside factors, the opposite of core

[lusty crystal]

no, the concept is fine. the gameplay core is flawed. the concept is a driving part via rails. the core is having a mechanic to speed, jump and glide.

[willow widget]

What are the issues of speed jump and glide, they all have a purpose

Jump allows for upward movement and further forward movement, speed allows for control over your speed for momentum and comfortability, glide allows for more small readjustments and long distance slower paced movement

The jump being not as accurate is made up with the glide

Speedup doesnt really harm it, and glide apart from jank does what it sets out to do, allow slower and careful movement without a track

[lusty crystal]

yes but their controls are counter intuitive. the gliding is on speeding and not a jumping key, makes you switch R -> L -> Hold R. In addition you often fail a simple jump from rail to raid due to no apparent reason. idk if its server lagg or not the perfect angle of attack.

[willow widget]

Having to switch between buttons isnt bad?????? I dont see any logical reason for its issue, but I do see how it could feel worse for certain people

[lusty crystal]

having to think of speed key being gliding and jump key not being related to gliding is, yes

[willow widget]

And again, glide makes up for jumps inconsistentcy

[lusty crystal]

maybe focus on a good and fun fast paces jumping part without gliding, so you have accurate jumps and a fun track to traverse?

[willow widget]

Which is like saying a puzzle is bad cause the red piece does not contrast well with the yellow piece. This doesnt really have much to do with it in gameplay. Sure the names dont match but it doesnt affect much

[lusty crystal]

well yes it does. you can have a good quality puzzle with nice parts but the image is so ugly you dont want to make it.

[willow widget]

Just a puzzle overall, not picture pizzles.. since those are directlynlinked to how they look

[lusty crystal]

and a gameplay where you have a driving section isnt liked to how you drive it?

[willow widget]

Ok point is

Having to do a different click really doesn't do much except make you have to use your brain to get used to it for one attempt maybe

[willow widget]

A much larger focus on accuracy would cause jank to be magnified(glide allows for corrections

making it: Less fun and more infuriating, boring and too simple

[lusty crystal]

thats just not true.

[willow widget]

Please explain

Heres my reasons: Glide allows for corrections if you miss, or overshoot

glide allows for the course to get harder since the player has much more control

and "but controls" doesn't disprove the point, I've stated reasons against it a bunch of times already

And why not have best of both worlds? fix up jump to be more accurate and keep glide?

[lusty crystal]

1. different input keys can change alot.
2. higher accuracy does not make it less accurate as you said indirectly
3. another gameplay track to drive though does not have to be boring
4. removing gliding mechanic doesnt make it linear since you got to make a whole different track
5. inconsistent jumps and janky gliding dont make it "hard and therefore good gameplay"

Well ... your "stated reasons" against the flaw with the controls were: get better / i am fine with it / it allowes for harder gameplay

when the real problems with the controls are not ease of gameplay but consistency and intuitivity

[willow widget]

1. Maybe for you sure, but I don't think it affects here
2. high accuracy required + janky movement from jumps could cause issues, due to needing more accuracy making it generally easier to miss slightly, which causes frustration
3. yes but it DOES limit options.. which you didn't say anything about
4. Different = non linear??????????? It can be different but still will be worse unless much more effort is put inot it.
5. Again, reasons of jank. Gliding overall hasn't been extremely janky(except on newer versions for some reason, but that's a unfixable issue possibly for both.

[lusty crystal]

imagine spacebar for gliding as an example

[willow widget]

I am not saying it is completely fine, just that you are blowing it out of proportion, a build is not ruined if one houses door is a different colour, a scultpure is not ruined if a hand is not entirely accurate

[lusty crystal]

yes but its the door, the windows, half the roof is missing, one wall got blasted by a cannon and around 35% of it is on fire

[willow widget]

That is different. this is the switching of two controls extremely close together

[willow widget]

Again, blowing it out of proportion, I am referring to the other statements

Having to loop once does not ruin the experience completely, nor does it really negatively impact completely. It slows it down which people could like, it is simply preference

Spacebar is far away from right click, very far away

[lusty crystal]

no it doesnt. but it is 10 different small things and all together they ruin it

[willow widget]

There is not that many

You loop on one part

You slow down on ascending, which isn't much of a noticable difference

and again, there are positives based on preference. what if someone likes slowing down?

[lusty crystal]

1. inverted boosting / jumping (self fixable)
2. gliding on boost key
3. janky normal jumps
4. disruptive gameplay cause of 2 sections req you to loop around for enough speed
5. a pillar where you can get stuck at after jumpiong
6. accidental doule jump leads you to instantly fall of next track (double tapped jump cause you'd think its the gliding feature aswell)
7. sections where you need to look left/right very fast so its unnecessary hard to keep track of whats to come
8. skip options needs about 50? fails to appear
9. slightly laggy server makes 1-2 jumps near impossible and far too luck based
10. sudden speed changes without boosting depending of your camera perspective while jumping
11. breaking flow of gameplay

i mean come on.... they knew what they were doing after setting a respawn point every 20 sec of track instead of fixing it so it works for everybody

[willow widget]

So, that being a issue is not extremely large, as well as that's mostly down to preference

I am trying to look at this more objectively, overall, will this be a massive issue? No

If you dislike it, change the controls yourself, if you like it, nice

if you're neutral, nice

There are certainly jank related issues, but you've talked about like, anything that isnt a major problem

[tropic needle]

minecart section is the best part what are you on

[willow widget]

1 and 2 are simmiliar, and are preference based mostly, normal jumps are made up for by glide, which I have said before,
looping around can be positive, and barely does much to really affect it

[lusty crystal]

1 and 2 are not similar cause if you invert keys, gliding is still on the boost key

[willow widget]

a pillar you can get stuck on... Which one??? where??

[willow widget]

Still preference based though

[keen turret]

😔 I wished you presented today

[willow widget]

6 is EASILY avoidable, and is a direct issue made by the first issue

7. You can obviously see whats ahead, and you can easily retry and memorise it as well, learn tactics, etc. This is a pattern in many games and is fine

[lusty crystal]

true. but if you cant change stuff yourself, you usually do the commonly used keys. and every racing/parcour game in existance will not have the gliding key on the run key but instead on the jump one

[willow widget]

Well maybe you're used to it, but I haven't seen anyone else struggle with it

It could be made I guess

8. skip option amount decreases the further you go btw

[lusty crystal]

you support disruptive gameplay. checkpoints are not used to respawn over and over and do a trial and error gameplay. just fix it and have a gameplay flow.

[willow widget]

9. lag.. unless you have consistent lag every time there I don't think it's impossible. a huge hassle though

[willow widget]

You can pretty easily tell whats happening

as well, so no fail is on the table

[lusty crystal]

all i ask for is a skip option after like 10 fails. not 50. its disgusing how much time this quests wastes for ppl with laggs or people who not get along with it

[willow widget]

I think the person should at least try it

not fail a bit then instantly skip it

and again, it decreases as you go further, so someone will usually not spend that much time if they actually try

Maybe it could be decreased by 10 in every section

[lusty crystal]

its a joke. the whole section is just made for ppl with good ping who are not used to common sense with controls. basically for kids in america. everyone else just gets a big fu with it.

[tropic needle]

i avoided skipping even when given the option

[willow widget]

Well, you're steering this right into a dumspter fire

[tropic needle]

the minigame was fun and i liked it, the skip is only for extreme server lag

[lusty crystal]

i didnt skip either even tho i had the option the first time i did the quest. still, its bad. just very very bad

[willow widget]

A bit of lag doesn't ruin it

[lusty crystal]

ngl, you make me very angry cause your arguments are on the level of a 12 yr old. so im by far not objektive anymore

[willow widget]

for reasons I have provided many arguementa against, many that you still havent responded to

[willow widget]

Welp, yep

"This is evil this sucks so much this is a fu to people. You're 12 and your arguements are bad I'm great"

That really is not the way to try to handle a discussion..

[lusty crystal]

cba anymore

[willow widget]

Well, this is where stubbornness leads ya

[tropic needle]

the bigger problem with the quest to me is the mining part

[willow widget]

It's being changed, so I hope those changes are good

[lusty crystal]

you have wood at the ground to lead your way

[tropic needle]

the mining part is a cool idea but it fails to guide the player to the wooden planks, also the walls that need to be exploded are really annoying

the lack of indication for the secrets makes sense but anyone who wants to get them all will have to spend 15 or so minutes drilling aimlessly

[willow widget]

I agreed from the start it should be lowered, I agree jankiness is a issue, but your other points don't make sense and feel like tiny nitpicks due to annoyance than actaul points

[tropic needle]

i had no issues with jankiness, the only times i ever failed were when the server hit a lag spike and my minecart dropped mid-glide

the minecart was fun to control and i enjoyed it

[willow widget]

Most of the arguments you provided were based on preference, which are personal issues due to not many other people having those issues

The main issue is lag spikes

They were a large issue at release, but they've mostly died down

[lament river]

I enjoyed the minecart part when it actually worked

The problem is that the minecart sometimes just doesnt jump high enough

I dont know if there is some kind of hidden mechanic in making it go up hugher but it just sometimes decided to not jump enough

Like the part where you need to do 3 jumps up in a row

I was stuck on that part for a good 10 mins because the minecart just refused to jump high enough most of the time

[lament river]

And yeah the mining part is just pain

I spent ages digging in random locations not knowing that the planks were leading me somewhere

Thankfully someone in chat told me what to do and it was fun after that

[tropic needle]

i could've sworn there was a note saying "i left a trail of wooden planks" when i played it on beta once

but when i played the quest on live it wasnt there

[lament river]

Maybe they could make a mini part right before the digging area where you just ride a minecart and click on switches

That way the player would automatically know to folow the minecart path while digging

[tropic needle]

just have a hint somewhere saying "follow the wooden planks"

[lament river]

That could work too but it would be a bit less immersive

But yeah in the end anything that hints towards following the wood planks would be great

[sullen stump]

isn’t the note in a small cave room at the top of the small waterfall

oops sorry for ping

[tropic needle]

that's one of the secrets

[sullen stump]

ohh yea

[lusty crystal]

Tldr, would you please change the skip option to appear faster so all players, that dont live in na, keep their sanity?

[tropic needle]

i live in the UK and there was literally no issue with the minigame for me

but i suppose it could be reduced to 25 failures

[lament river]

I live in korea and it was living hell in that one section i mentioned above

I need to redo it on my warrior on live to 100% the quests and ive been putting it off massively

[sand star]

Hi, maker of the quest here. The minecart's controls are as they appear due to limitations of Minecraft and our scripting system. There is only so much you can do, but I still made the section because I thought it was fun. I thought the controls were fine, but it seems you don't really like them, but then again I've never played any of the games you mentioned. I knew people would be frustrated due to the mechanics and lag, so I added a skip feature. The skip feature is designed as it is so that skipping the section wouldn't be faster than actually doing the content yourself, in order to make the content not totally irrelevant. The amount of skips you need may be slightly overtuned, and I can look into changing it.

As for the mining section, there is a very clear indication of what you're supposed to do. In the quest book, it says "follow the rail tracks", and you also get a message in chat showing what to do in blue. It might be a little confusing, so I can probably change it to just say "spruce planks" or "wooden planks." As for the secrets, they were changed so that they are all behind dark cobblestone, so you will know when you are near a secret now.

I now realize that lag is much more of a problem than I thought it would be, and I'll try not to make any more ping-dependent content in the future. Let me know if you have any more suggestions, and I'll consider them.

[lament river]

personally the controls arent a issue for me, its just the problem with the minecart just not jumping high enough when it needs to

oh and the jumping was mostly fine on most parts, it was only a big issue on the part where you need to jump up 3 times in a row right after the first checkpoint

i did really enjoy the entire quest a lot and it is one of my favorites in the game currently if i just ignore that one thing

[lusty crystal]

Totally understand skipping shouldnt be shorter than completing normally. On the other hand failing due to lagg, yank or controls you mess up for 10-20min is very frustrating.

[lament river]

currently doing the quest again and yeah the minecart randomly decides to not jump that high sometimes

[lusty crystal]

How long do you normally need for the minecart section? - cause it takes me 20 min avg

[lament river]

i did get past the part where i got hold up last time but the minecart just doesnt jump enough to make some jumps randomly

[lament river]

idk

i was held up on that single section for like 10 mins last time and breased through the other parts with ease

[sand star]

That's very weird, could that be due to lag?

[lament river]

and im just doing it for the second time currently

[lament river]

not sure, the controls are perfectly responsive

[lusty crystal]

Do you mean the spot where you got to jump around the pillar, then land on the circle and the jump after that. I have a success rate of about 1/20 on that one.

[lament river]

nah the part where you jump up 4 times in a row

i thought it was 3 times before

but yeah 4 times straight up right after the first checkpoint

or 1 normal jump and 3 ups

[sand star]

Could you send me a video of it not jumping high enough, if you can?

[lament river]

ah i just passed it hang on

ill come back on another class

[lusty crystal]

Glitch, if you are up in about 6 hours, i can screenshare you how the quest works for me.
If you want to.

[sand star]

I don't think I'll be available in 6 hours, maybe in about 8. I'll let you know

[lusty crystal]

Okay, thats fine aswell.

[lament river]

ifstg now it works perfectly

with some miracle from god the quest is now bug free the moment i start recording

absolutely incredible

[lusty crystal]

im not gonna lie, the moment i streamed the quest i basically one shotted it. had no real problems whatsoever.

did i get trolled? was this all a sceme

[lament river]

Same here, the moment i started recording the minecart decided to work fine

Game is trolling us

[orchid niche]

absolutely humongous skill issue

Colossal difference in mechanical ability