memes

[noble valley]

Wyd when the gang pulls up to the function?

[thin lynx]

💀

[potent mortar]

you didn't have to share this

[frosty hawk]

Morph stardust

[fathom willow]

this the typa shit to get caught by a moderator 3 hours after being posted

[rocky carbon]

thats what you hope

[potent mortar]

🛐

[naive thistle]

I don't technically think that meme is allowed here but

Who knows

[fading zealot]

me when I declare that only mongolians can look at my art that I post publically

[dire warren]

??

[fading zealot]

and sue anyone who isn't mongolian that does so

[dire warren]

Ai “art” is theft.

[fading zealot]

I sure hope you aren't gonna look at my art if you aren't mongolian

cause that's theft

[potent mortar]

https://tenor.com/view/hoodwinked-hoodwinked-too-slap-gif-23733043

begone, troll

[dire warren]

fr

[potent mortar]

find another cave to squat in

[dire warren]

https://tenor.com/view/fox-shakes-you-violently-gif-24929527

[fading zealot]

not even trolling, I'm just actively losing hope in humanity

[dire warren]

bro you are the problem

[fading zealot]

there's valid reasons to be opposed to the development of this technology

and for some reason, this logically bankrupt one is still there

[potent mortar]

There is literally no point in debating you, because your mind is made up

[fading zealot]

that's one way to avoid refuting my point

it's not like you have to

you post a file publically, people and machines alike can analyze it and download it

[potent mortar]

https://tenor.com/view/okay-gif-17654051135327764140

You're allowed to have whatever opinions you want

[fading zealot]

scrapers aren't like actively hacking your computer or hacking websites to access restricted content, they're literally just taking the stuff people posted in public

[potent mortar]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1164178216760651816/1355304316121907230/9ko0jvpo.mp4?ex=67e87101&is=67e71f81&hm=1e0c4ef8a580bdb058f236e35557ddef70a5a96f3a16b9ce0466326d2ec8fcc4&

[fading zealot]

glad you changed your mind

[potent mortar]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/724859765200650250/1355165444096528588/dogdancing.mp4?ex=67e7efab&is=67e69e2b&hm=d880aeceb65f279ec547c7aeda4839e2ef1921c7883d768739ccd1658368a106&

[green haven]

Bait used to be believable

[fading zealot]

wait yall actually believe they're hacking websites?

[green haven]

Nobody mentioned hacking

[fading zealot]

I did.... you literally responded to that message calling it bait

[green haven]

The statement was true, the conclusion was silly

[fading zealot]

okay, I don't see how my statement is bait if you agree with it

[green haven]

They are not hacking websites ✅
It's an image that is found publicly, therefore it cannot be stolen ❌

[dire warren]

the copyright in question:

[fading zealot]

what do scrapers do that makes it theft, that humans don't do?

[dire warren]

Training ai is absolutely commercial purposes

You taking someone’s art because you like it and want to print it out or use it for a background or avatar is not the same as training an ai only to “replace” real artists jobs

[green haven]

It's using art in a commercially sold product

[fading zealot]

humans learn by looking at art and analyzing it, and so do the models

[dire warren]

A facsimile of human effort claiming to replace it, completely soulless

[fading zealot]

it's as if you downloaded a piece of art and then learned to make your own art from it (and many others), and the original artist claimed you used their art for commercial purposes without their permission therefore you're a thief

[green haven]

A. You don't sell humans.
B. Ripping off an art style isn't good
C. Copying and then selling that copy isn't good

[dire warren]

https://tenor.com/view/famine-garfield-gif-19810423

https://tenor.com/view/conductor-we-have-a-problem-cat-cute-funny-gif-17168115721186324165

[green haven]

Traced art is literally one of the biggest sins in the art community

[potent mortar]

^

Tracing is fine for learning, but to trace and pass it off as your own art is incredibly dishonest

[fading zealot]

A. thank goodness you don't, on the human side you hire artists instead, with a computer program you don't have to hire it, you just make it and use it
B. yeah, but it's not theft
C. models aren't copying art, they are generating based on their current parameters

[green haven]

I used something as reference == I used something to directly profit from it and replicate it

[green haven]

A. Which requires stolen art, or a stolen conscious as you argue
B. It literally is
C. With the intent to copy the art and it's style

[fading zealot]

oh wow

C kinda broke me inside this time

[green haven]

Expanded B - In the case that it isn't "I like this style of shading, I'm gonna use it", it's literally "I'm going to copy this exact method of execution"

[hybrid robin]

ai doesnt learn to draw art it learns how to make pictures that look like art other people made

[green haven]

Reminder: We're not talking about an artist wanting to improve or doing something different. We're talking about a commercial product

[hearty hornet]

So it learns to draw basically lmao

[hybrid robin]

also imo ai art looks ugly and uncanny

[potent mortar]

always

[green haven]

Yeah, it's superficially good

[hearty hornet]

Ethical debates about ai art are funny

[hybrid robin]

ai music is even worse tho

[green haven]

Always messes to details

[hybrid robin]

i went to the cinema recently and they had an ad with ai music

it was awful

[green haven]

That's why it's in #memes :]

[potent mortar]

America will fall in 30 days

[fading zealot]

A. you're trying to prove it's theft to me right now, you can't just assume it's theft to prove it is
B. no... there's a lot of artists who do that, it's often coming from a place of respect (e.g. fanart in the style of the original game)
C. as mentioned above, reading this one kind of broke me. We could copy art since forever ago, in fact you still can, copying data has been around as long as computers have been, you don't train a massive model just to do what could've always been done. They're learning with the intent of being able to generate images that some people would like to see, it's really that simple

[dire warren]

eugh

[fading zealot]

expanded C: the whole POINT is to make it possible to generate content that has not been made before

[hybrid robin]

i dont think im going to the cinema again for a while

[fading zealot]

in fact, if a model produces results too close to training data regularly, this is seen as a major development issue

[dire warren]

a disgrace to us actual musicians

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/752354197277507614/1308268320595640421/Horse.gif

[potent mortar]

petah, the horse is here

[hearty hornet]

Maybe in a year or two ai will be able to generate Fruma

[dire warren]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-silly-car-cat-meme-fbi-police-gif-4156586102652823547

[hybrid robin]

i wish there was ai that did the dishes for me

[hearty hornet]

There are probably "human assisted" robots that could

[green haven]

A. Was permission given for a piece to be used in another commercial work? No?
B. As mentioned, it isn't "I want to try this style", it's "I'm replicating this exact process for profit and completely without the artist's permission or knowledge.
C. There's a difference between little Timmy using an image he found on Google for his 4th grade book report and taking an artist's body or work without permission or compensation and using it to replace their style

[potent mortar]

"You know what the biggest problem with pushing all things AI is? Wrong direction. I want AI to do my laundry and dishes so that I can do art and writing, not for AI to do my art and writing so that I can do my laundry and dishes."

[hybrid robin]

love that quote

[green haven]

In fact, this is my point.

[rocky carbon]

me too

[fading zealot]

surely it can't be your point. You would be arguing for AI to get better as fast as possible then

again, overfitting is literally an issue

[green haven]

Yeah. Cuz it's stealing

[fading zealot]

it goes against the whole point of AI and engineers work day and night to overcome it

[green haven]

Hey guys, look at my new car!
It looks like my neighbor's brand new car, it runs like it, I don't own any paperwork saying it's mine, but it's okay, because I found it on a public street

Therefore it's mine

[fading zealot]

does the neighbor still have the car?

he does.

see, this is the difference

[green haven]

Actually, their car is rendered moot, as they have a taxi business

And now I'm using that car for mine

And getting tax cuts from it

Don't forget, this is alllll a commercial product

[fading zealot]

I want to specifically focus on A, cause I see this all the time and it's an insane double standard. A properly trained model will use existing images for training. All it does is "look" at the image, and adjust parameters in its neurons based on it. Kinda like an aspiring artist looks at an image and adjusts their neurons based on it...

[green haven]

Computers don't have neurons
And

Again

[fading zealot]

have you heard of a neural network

[green haven]

Copying is a sin in artist community

[potent mortar]

"In its neurons" 🥀

[fading zealot]

it's not a literal neuron, it's a data structure called a neuron

that's just pedantry cmon

there's a reason that AI architecture is based on how a brain works

[green haven]

That's why it's one sentence and not the many, many, like those before

[fading zealot]

I don't think this is your argument, because I don't think you're opposed to AI only when it very closely copies training data

[hybrid robin]

depends on the algorithm but modern ones are trained to make a function that converts noise into images and it gets judged by how close it is to making the training images

[fading zealot]

yes, diffusion models

[green haven]

The entire point is that I argued it as stealing from artists

So yes, yes it is

[hybrid robin]

those ai search results suck

[fading zealot]

so you're fine with AI image generation when its results do not closely resemble training data?\

ye they do

[hybrid robin]

i think the point is they should no be allowed to use copyrighted materials for training at all

[green haven]

No, I'm fine with it when it doesn't steal an artist's work without their permission or compensation

[fading zealot]

why are humans allowed to do so, then?

[green haven]

Cuz you can't

Neighbor's car

[fading zealot]

can you look at your neighbor's car to learn how to make your own car?

[green haven]

Not if it's the same car

Or used a patented system

Which AI doesn't do, and struggles to do anything different. Like you yourself said

[fading zealot]

can you look at a copyrighted image to learn how to draw better?

[green haven]

Yeah, but you can't copy the image and trace it

That's no good
-Sonk da Hedge

[fading zealot]

so, again, so long as the AI doesn't make images that closely resemble training data, you're fine with it

[green haven]

No, I'm fine with it when it doesn't steal an artist's work without their permission or compensation

[fading zealot]

you literally just said that an artist can look at a copyrighted image to learn how to draw so long as he doesn't trace over it

[potent mortar]

My favorite part of talking to @fading zealot is when they put words in my mouth

[vast bluff]

No? A person still needs taught skills to make a car, but lets actually get this straight, you're defending AI stealing art?
-# I was expecting slightly funny memes, not a bunch of smell tbh

[green haven]

The strawmanner

[potent mortar]

I really like having my points misconstrued and twisted in bad faith for the sake of their argument

[green haven]

Yeah, which AI doesn't do

[fading zealot]

I'm arguing that AI image generation software cannot logically be considered theft if you do not consider human artists thieves when they learn by analyzing others' art

[potent mortar]

It makes for healthy discussion and definitely avoids hostility

[green haven]

It literally used the data from it. You can't trace more than that

[fading zealot]

AIs look at copyrighted images to learn how to draw

it uses the data for training

[green haven]

And then steal it's data

It needs to steal that data to train

[fading zealot]

AKA modification of its own parameters to get better at generating

kinda like you look at art to better learn how to draw

[vast bluff]

It IS literally even more expropriation of artists

why are you arguing for this

[fading zealot]

again again again, if AI models actually copied training data they would be hundreds of terabytes instead of a couple gigabytes

it does not copy

it processes images to modify its parameters

[rigid mountain]

it copies and compresses it into a neural network

[fading zealot]

oh my god

please

I really really don't wanna say you have no idea what you're talking about but, you have no idea what you're talking about

legitimately it's straight up not how it works period

[rigid mountain]

the neural network is effectively just a compressed representation of the paths taken to get from random noise to a given image, there's no spice of originality anywhere.

[vast bluff]

like, genuinely, what do you, you specifically, have to gain from this technology and defending it

[rigid mountain]

it's a weird way of phrasing how it works, but that is an objective sense what it's doing.

[fading zealot]

there's no compression in the entire process, and there's no copying of the data

if you want me to explain how backpropagation works, I can do it

[hybrid robin]

do it!

[rigid mountain]

for one, real artists don't need to see every image ever created in order to make a mid replica

[rigid mountain]

like hell there isn't

I was talking about compression in an abstract sense, but there is regular bloody compression involved to

[vast bluff]

Even if it was not literally infringing on IP, the results are disastrous to artists

[rigid mountain]

bad argument, cars were disastrous to horses.

[nova roost]

they really weren't, horses were not benefiting lmao

[rigid mountain]

artists aren't benefitting either

[vast bluff]

Horses are not artists. Also what?

[nova roost]

one of the major issues people were eager to get rid of with the car was the frequency of horses literally dying in the streets, the art industry is not worried about artists keeling over their desks

horses also weren't getting paid wages

artists are

[vast bluff]

^ Thank you

[rigid mountain]

Better example: People used to write every copy of every book by hand, just because a new technology is bad for the people its trying to replace doesn't make it inherently bad. AI is shit in a billion other ways, but this is a bad argument against it.

[fading zealot]

tl;dr, and very simplified:

1. neural networks start with neurons organised into layers, with some values
2. you feed the NN data, and a label.
3. NN leaves the label for later, and processes the data (attempts to generate something based on it)
4. NN compares its generation to the label: sees how different it is and calculates an error value
5. The error values is propagated backwards through the layers of the neurons, modifying the model's parameters to next time generate something closer resembling the original image. This is controlled with hyperparameters such as learning speed to make sure every bit of training data influences the model's methodology very slightly (basically to prevent copying of the training data)
6. Repeat for a gazillion bits of training data

On an example:

1. let's say you have a binary classification model that you want to train to tell apart pictures of cats and dogs.
2. you feed it a picture of a cat with a label 0 (for cat, 1 for dog)
3. the model takes the picture and processes it through its entire structure, it's left with a floating point value e.g. 0.632
4. the model looks at the label (0) and compares it to the result (0.632). It calculates the error value.
5. then it propagates it backwards through the model, modifying every parameter to be able to slighlty better call that image a cat. And since cats have traits in common, doing that slight modification makes it also slightly better at telling apart other cat pictures.
6. Repeat a gazillion times and you now have a model that can tell apart cats and dogs

I gave the example of a classification model because it's much easier to understand than generative types, those have obnoxiously complicated architectures but fundamentally work on a similar level

[hybrid robin]

you didnt explain backpropagation tho

how does it know what to change and how

[rigid mountain]

end result, the data on what an image contains is translated from a marker on the image to a neural network that can infer that data automatically with decent accuracy, therby compressing it

[rigid mountain]

also, shit explanation, go watch 3Blue1Brown explain it or something buddy, because you know infinitely less about this than you claim

[supple idol]

What happened to my memes?
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/807809192537882647/1265360606526050458/image0.gif

[vast bluff]

Pretty sure this is a good argument against it, considering the system we live under right now. Those are tangible people that are affected by this? Like, that is actually doing harm.

[rigid mountain]

I've actually built and worked with AI models before, I stopped when I realized it was negatively affecting my ability to program, but I understand how they work and have created multiple fundamentally different types of neural networks before.

[fading zealot]

backpropagation is basically the idea of taking the error value calculated at the end and pushing it backwards through the model, changing the parameters. It calculates the change based on the model's previous values (basically the reverse of how the image was processed forwards) and... math

[potent mortar]

Folks came together to create a delicious banquet for the troll

[fading zealot]

troll is when I disagree with you

[rigid mountain]

https://tenor.com/view/ragebait-facts-jojo-jotaro-gif-7222285943589343672

[vast bluff]

True! I was expecting something else, not this mess.

[potent mortar]

This happens every once in a while

expect massive meme dumps from Wet Entity on the horizon, though

[rigid mountain]

troll is when you pretend you understand how AI works and could possibly comprehend if it's infringing on intellectual property, cya.

[fading zealot]

I don't claim to be an expert on this topic, I assumed you meant compression as in "the model is taking the dataset and compressing it, it still has all the training data inside it but it's smaller in size now"

believe me I've heard equally stupid takes

[rigid mountain]

I'm saying it's a jpeg on crack and nothing more

[fading zealot]

I wonder why it can generate things that weren't in its training dataset if it's literally a compression algorithm

[rigid mountain]

what AI "artists" create with it is just exploiting the articats

[rigid mountain]

over-abstraction

it finds* patterns in artist's work and abstracts that into a dimension of the neural network

[fading zealot]

basically yeah

kinda like a human artist notices certain patterns and adopts them into their style

humans are just infinitely smarter

[thin lynx]

how in the world have people gotten to ai

[fading zealot]

linear algebra

[vast bluff]

Are you paying wages to the artists then?

[fading zealot]

wdym

[thin lynx]

you dont normally

lmao

[fading zealot]

damn no need to write an essay I just wanted you to clarify your question

[potent mortar]

If you may direct your attention to the graph
#memes message

[fading zealot]

I was asked to explain the process

please don't be a pedant

[potent mortar]

Not really different from asking someone to explain their thought process, is it

[thin lynx]

?

[potent mortar]

It's pretty arrogant to assume that their thought process is automatically less complex than what you had to explain

[fading zealot]

I mean

admittedly the "wdym" is kinda vague

but I just meant I didn't understand the question, please clarify or reformulate

doesn't exactly compare to "please explain this complicated process to me"

but fair enough I did get impatient

my bad

[rocky carbon]

https://tenor.com/view/komaru-cat-komaru-cat-cute-cute-cat-gif-26495325

[vast bluff]

there is a difference between labouring and creating art and just relying on ai, and like, i'm for automation, but ai companies are negatively affecting artists and infringe on their ips
it's automation for the sake of automating rather than for benefitting humanity

i'm fairly tired tho i might be making a flawed point

[thin lynx]

id argue theres a difference between ai companies and people who just use ai art now and then altho im not sure how relevant that is

ive seen like writers use ai art so the audience has something nice to look at now and then for instance which is cool

or people use ai art for ocs so their like idk lore or whatever i dont make ocs is more fleshed out

[fading zealot]

I think it is flawed, yes - I haven't used AI image generation to generate anything besides memes and/or absurd images for a situational joke, but I can assure you that these images would never come to be if not for AI

in other words, I would not be able to get an image like this done by a human artist in a timely manner

nor would I want to pay $25 for a little joke, I'm not exactly wealthy

[fading zealot]

I would like to separate entirely the topic of whether AI itself is ethical, and the topic of whether certain people are using it unethically

[thin lynx]

oh of course ai in and of itself isnt unethical

[rigid mountain]

me when I learn what a pencil is and that memes looking DIY just improves them:

[fading zealot]

I meant specifically the distinction between training an image model on all publically available content vs. people using it to generate content extremely similar to existing content and claiming the image is theirs

[fading zealot]

to your second point, that very much depends on the meme and/or joke

to your first point, that's kinda inconsiderate?

[rigid mountain]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1167933744330592317/1353226072409505863/attachment.gif

[fading zealot]

like you don't know who you're talking to - I could have a hand tremble, or painfully little time, or a myriad of other circumstances that makes it not worth it to try and become an artist

besides - would you make the same argument for any other profession?

[thin lynx]

factory workers frfr

making useful stuff for little money if any

[fading zealot]

if you had to fell a tree, but only had a type of chainsaw that infringed on a patent, would you seriously just try and learn how to become an amateur lumberjack to safely fell it with an axe?

[vast bluff]

do you need to fell a tree (i mean make an ai image)

[fading zealot]

.

[thin lynx]

wood?

its in the way?

[fading zealot]

I don't NEED to have an image, but then again most people don't need images, and yet they commission art (which is great don't get me wrong)

[rigid mountain]

You're talking to someone who lives in constant physical agony and has hand tremors. :)

[fading zealot]

well, I'm sorry to hear that

[vast bluff]

i find the metaphor puzzling because like, needing to get wood or remove a tree is just not the same as generating bloody images

[fading zealot]

but that means you should certainly understand why you can't universalize the argument of "just pick up a pencil and draw"

[rigid mountain]

I love it man, it just makes the challenge of drawing more interesting.

[fading zealot]

well, good to hear your tremor is not as bad as it could be

[rigid mountain]

bro

[fading zealot]

point being, you can't argue that I'm hurting an artist if the crap I generate from time to time has to be made under conditions that cannot be filled by a human

[vast bluff]

they cannot?

[fading zealot]

as I said, I really only use AI image gen for the sake of a timely joke between me and my friends

if you can't make me a full-blown image, with color, of some absurd crap that my deranged friends laugh at, in up to 40 seconds, then you're not making the cut

and as I mentioned I'm not some millionaire to commission entire art pieces and pay 25 bucks for them for the sake of one little joke to be forgotten about 15 minutes later

[vast bluff]

and no, i can still argue that artists are still hurt by the innovation and that maybe the system needs to change
-# which is the point i was trying to make
-# edit: hi im tweaking and was pondering and edited stuff to correct a grammatical error

[fading zealot]

what I'm essentially saying is that there's a niche

[fading zealot]

the system certainly needs to change... by which I mean IP

I've seen it said a couple times here and I haven't addressed it yet

people were talking about infringing on IP as if IP law is like at all salvageable

[thin lynx]

only when its like used to hurt them

[fading zealot]

credit is absolutely super important, but I can't imagine someone honestly defending the current IP law who's not like a megacorporation that gains billions yearly on patent abuse or other crap like that

[fathom willow]

damn the ai arguement still going?

[vast bluff]

intellectual property is just yet another private property relation, and i know the various inovations are unraveling the whole property relation system and leading towards a better tommorow, but i'd still protest ai as long as it's doing more harm to people than any meaningful good

[potent mortar]

https://tenor.com/view/laughing-duck-gif-1363576254939741235

[thin lynx]

maybe ai art lmao

ai in general? no way lmao

[vast bluff]

oh, ai art

ai can be helpful yeah

cancer screening is nice

[fading zealot]

and yeah, I won't argue that artists aren't hurt by the development of the technology - they certainly are

but equally

knocker-uppers have been replaced by alarm clocks

the number of employed lumberjacks drastically decreased when chainsaws were introduced to the industry

the whole point of technology is to make it so humans have to do less work to achieve a desired result

[potent mortar]

You're describing people that do manual labor, art isn't really comparable to that

[fading zealot]

why not?

[potent mortar]

Art is human expression, its value isn't a static thing

[thin lynx]

humans can still express themselves

[fading zealot]

value in general isn't static

[drowsy yarrow]

would i be banned for saying the solution is communism

[thin lynx]

i hope not

[vast bluff]

I think these aren't good arguments, as you're neglecting to still consider the broader reality (capitalism)

[thin lynx]

its not like artists would go away

• if artists go poof where is ai gonna get artwork to steal? checkmate openai

[fading zealot]

I don't know if I want to get into this discussion

[fathom willow]

ai inbreeding 🔥

[fathom willow]

not worth it

[fading zealot]

yeah I don't think so either

[thin lynx]

sponsored by austria-hungary

[potent mortar]

We won, Reddit 🥹

[fading zealot]

or rather, I don't think it would be a productive discussion given what was said at the start

[vast bluff]

-# marx analysed something like this will always keep happening under capitalism

[fading zealot]

should I say it

[drowsy yarrow]

not sure what's coming but now you have me curious

[fading zealot]

if I say it I'll be taking my leave

so probably most people will say yeah lol

[naive thistle]

Art isn't something that people should have to do less work to achieve a desired result

Like akimbo said, it's human expression

It comes from people putting in the time and effort to create something

If a computer generates the image for you, there is no time and effort

[thin lynx]

art isnt entirely about the time and effort tho- the end result matters too

if it looks good is most important imo for instance

[fading zealot]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDyXyfUgv80

?

[naive thistle]

And the more time and effort people put into it, the better it is

[thin lynx]

disagree

[naive thistle]

The more people learn and test the better the result is

[thin lynx]

you cant see the time and effort put in very easily

[drowsy yarrow]

if art is important because it lets you express yourself, AI isn't stopping you from making art
if art is important because it's pretty, AI increases the availability of the end product

[thin lynx]

^

[drowsy yarrow]

unless one is an artist

[vast bluff]

art shouldn't be commodified i think

[naive thistle]

Your points contradict each other

[thin lynx]

no they dont lmao what

[drowsy yarrow]

nah, they just provide two answers for two viewpoints

that's what the word if is for

[naive thistle]

Ai not stopping you from making art is true, but you said if art is important because it's pretty ai increases rhe availability

[thin lynx]

im not thinking about it as a commodity, more as something nice to look at

[naive thistle]

If ai makes it more available

[thin lynx]

(art)

[humble panther]

marx said the 1860s was late stage capitalism bro

[naive thistle]

Why not just go to an app and get your image

There's no need to commission art

[thin lynx]

because then you dont get the satisfaction of making it?

[naive thistle]

There's no need to learn it

[thin lynx]

if its about satisfaction there isnt wrong with "oh someone added photos to their book" or whatever

[fading zealot]

okay I'll say what I wanted to say back then - Marx also theorized that derivatives in math are not real

I don't consider that man to be a particular authority on anything

[drowsy yarrow]

the desire to learn art still exists as the natural human desire for self-expression still exists

[fading zealot]

I think people nowadays are already proving it wrong

The one positive side of the AI panic that I wholeheartedly endorse

is the push for human art

[naive thistle]

It drastically goes down though, it's a trend between convenience

[naive thistle]

Which is why I don't understand people saying ai is good

[thin lynx]

the desire for self expression is unchanged

[humble panther]

i think the fact that there is any fear that ai could ruin art is proof that our art is soulless and can be replaced

i think ai art has a role but i think the onus is on us to make better art that uplifts humanity instead of being on the same tier as never goon buff minion

[drowsy yarrow]

well, it decreases the population of artists who produce so they can be popular, clearing the way for artists who produce because they enjoy it

[tawny robin]

https://youtu.be/P-Ce_mu16AE?si=1aIMtLyFnYCRBFN2

[vast bluff]

curious where you found that

[tawny robin]

tangentally related

[fading zealot]

Note on Mathematics

[naive thistle]

It's soulless because it can be reproduced by a computer

[thin lynx]

#memes message

[humble panther]

our art is soulless because it is soulless

[fading zealot]

that's... harsher than I would put it.

there's also another upside

[humble panther]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1175630263112437791/1355035269031657492/image0.jpg?ex=67e81f2f&is=67e6cdaf&hm=14215fc1147334c677e7e56a850e1f94fdddbca7f5f1612caa0a8a151bbac1e8&

[fading zealot]

AI is not capable of doing qualitative analysis

[thin lynx]

i think calling art soulless is kinda silly and just personification to try and make an argument

[humble panther]

this is worth millions

this is soulless

this gives me nothing

i do not feel anything

[naive thistle]

We alr3ady had a discussion on "modern" art

[humble panther]

i am not impressed

[drowsy yarrow]

the value of art is what one derives from it

[potent mortar]

You can't liken money laundering to actual human art

[naive thistle]

Most logical people understand it's shit

[humble panther]

i agree

[naive thistle]

We can ignore modern art

[humble panther]

the point is that we are left with only amateur artists and soulless artists

[vast bluff]

im not sure the point you're making tbh

[humble panther]

not art related but

[thin lynx]

tbf people say "art made by an amateur is better than anything made by an ai" which is really silly

[humble panther]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCpF7z4JszE

movies

[thin lynx]

like this i made for #your_work is NOT better than ai lmao

[naive thistle]

Even an amateur could produce something better then most modern art

[rigid mountain]

cap on Gobb

[potent mortar]

I'm sorry but there's a middle ground between "amateur artists" and people who launder money

[tawny robin]

false dichotomy 👍

[humble panther]

we dont produce any michaelangelos is my point

[drowsy yarrow]

yeah, humans make cool stuff still

[fading zealot]

and probably will never be (or at least not for a super long time, we'd need to philosophically understand what beauty is objectively)
the result of this is essentially that AI is doomed to be forever mediocre, ergo, good artists will not be replaced

[drowsy yarrow]

welp I think we've found our answer

provided by Jtrillo

amen?

[potent mortar]

I'd shake on it

[humble panther]

i feel the ai discussion is just forever tainted by the fact that we do not produce any more truly uplifting art at the highest level

[fading zealot]

I'm very glad that in the wake of AI image generation people still support human artists - for being humans, and for making things on their own that inspire them

[potent mortar]

This sounds like an opinion piece

[tawny robin]

^

[potent mortar]

I could collect thousands of people that disagree with you

[naive thistle]

Jtrillo should be placed into a barrel of wet concrete

[humble panther]

yeah its my opinion

lol

[fading zealot]

JTrillo should be revered to high heavens

[humble panther]

i do not value the artwork in museums nowadays and i do not value modern AAA movies or games

they are worthless in my eyes

they could be replaced by ai and i wouldnt notice

[naive thistle]

Ai games are being made

[tawny robin]

https://youtu.be/MNlOD-HvRLs?si=9MzpUbYcZBhJm3yt shit like this is what really gets me to believe in the raw humanity of art again

[humble panther]

the average amateur artist can make great art that has actual soul

[naive thistle]

Ai is being used for voice acting, writing etc

[fading zealot]

AI minecraft was a fucking banger ngl

[humble panther]

my pfp is commissioned

[naive thistle]

Don't worry m1 ai will make your games in the future

[humble panther]

but why isnt our entire society like that

that is what in truly concerned about

[fading zealot]

because people disagree ig

[lofty orchid]

the point of this art is to highlight the water pollution issues, since it was in Chicago it was focused on the midwest particullarly, the soul in this is the problem it is highlighting. please dont use it as an example of soulless art

[humble panther]

i dont like it because itd be better written in a book

bruh

[naive thistle]

It's shit

[humble panther]

if the plaque is the exhibit

i dont give a shit

[naive thistle]

Walk into any hoarders house and you'll see the same thing you see in that photo

[lofty orchid]

correct, and it was in our water

all of this was sourced from the water directly

[naive thistle]

I don't care what the message is its not art

[fading zealot]

to be fair

we're slowly approaching the debate surrounding the definition of art

[naive thistle]

Don't need some thing to tell me that, I can just look outside

[potent mortar]

Interesting argument actually

idrk if I have a concrete view on that

[humble panther]

if i have to be explained why i should like art

then i dont like it

[potent mortar]

Cause yeah, it's important to highlight problems in society and whatnot

[fading zealot]

that's gonna be interesting, because from what I've seen most consistent definitions are not exactly ones that most laymen like

[humble panther]

better used as a form of protest than an art piece for a museum

[tawny robin]

yeah i originally disliked that image but i can understand that there is meaning behind it now. i might not appreciate it but surely its important to others

[potent mortar]

but is doing that through the lens of physical media art?

[fading zealot]

that I do agree with

[lofty orchid]

im not saying you should like it, im saying it has a purpose, the person who made it put their beliefs into it. its not just there to make money or make them famous. you aren't meant to like everything, some things are meant to be upsetting or make you think

[humble panther]

whatever bro. i could replace it with an ai generated image of a polluted river with a plaque reading "this is modeled after chicagos river in 1950"

the thing that is gained or lost is the explanation

[lofty orchid]

it was at an exhibition in Chicago that lasted 4 days, it may have gone somewhere else after but it wasn't originally made for the museum

[humble panther]

art ought to stand on its own because we derived something from art that is impressive

you go to an old vatican church and you feel something

[tawny robin]

sometimes you need context to derive meaning

[fading zealot]

we're getting there!

[potent mortar]

I don't

makes me feel like I'm wasting my time

different stuff makes different people feel different things

[lofty orchid]

the difference is one is modeled after, the other is made up of stuff found IN the river. as in "if i didnt get this out it would still be polluting the water you are drinking" (at least for the chicago citizens who saw it)

[tawny robin]

^

[humble panther]

you see the walls and you arent at all impressed?

[queen wyvern]

how the fuck are we back to this art argument

we have this every week

[rigid mountain]

Art is in part about the effort we put in to making something objectively useless, and taking that effort out of it strips art of one of its fundamental pillars.

[fading zealot]

I disagree actually

[naive thistle]

If people need an art exhibit made up of garbage to get their brain thinking rather then the eyes they use everyday while going out there's a problem

[fading zealot]

we're doing the definition of art debate!

I personally don't care what went into the art, I don't care about the journey, I care about the destination

[humble panther]

effort imo is just not a huge deal

[thin lynx]

true ngl

[humble panther]

if the result is a blank canvas but it took 20 years to reach it

i dont care

[fading zealot]

^

[humble panther]

i can find blank canvases at the store lol

just put a plaque on display call it a day

[potent mortar]

I can recognize that it takes a lot of skill and it's impressive, but in an age where everyone is constantly one upping everyone else, inventing technologies that redefine the way we see aspects of our lives every other month, spending a bunch of time making a big space look pretty just isn't very up there to me

[humble panther]

that kinda makes me sad ¯_(ツ)_/¯

well i respect it

[fading zealot]

you can film yourself making art and release the film with proper cinematography as another standalone art piece - but I don't think the effort itself, the effort alone, adds meaning to art

[queen wyvern]

https://tenor.com/view/gorilla-ape-monkey-funny-game-gif-20427841

[lofty orchid]

Yeah there is a problem your right, but if there is should we let everyone just... drink polluted water and get microplastics in their bloodstream? Like i've visited some of the mentioned rivers on trips and I have never seen this pollution, particularly the Chicago river. the issue with the chicago river is the river floor is made up of materials that make it hard to see into the river, HIDING the pollution from anyone who doesn't go in. so maybe people should use their eyes but not everyone can go visit the clear water rivers to see pollution

[thin lynx]

tbf a "message of art" is pretty close to the like "art made by a human is more pure than made by ai" or whatever

[fading zealot]

I mean people do argue that so

[thin lynx]

yeah and its stupid lmao

[potent mortar]

did you know that there's a plastic spoons worth of microplastics in your brain

[lofty orchid]

i should clarify, mentioned by the artist as sources for the garbage

[naive thistle]

If people don't do anything before an art exhibition like this gets made why would it do anything after

People already know about it

[vast bluff]

This is... every week??? Urgh

[potent mortar]

imagine how convenient it would be if you could just take that bad boy out at any time and use it

[fading zealot]

so true

[humble panther]

i should scoop my brain with my resident plastic spoon

[gusty delta]

MIND SPOON BATTLE

[humble panther]

lets go

[tawny robin]

because its kind of like a missing stair. everyone is used to the inconvenience until it is presented in a different way

[fading zealot]

microplastics are overrated, it's time to eat macroplastics

[lofty orchid]

if they didnt know, now they do. assuming everyone knows every issue automatically is flawed.

[naive thistle]

And even if they are what are they gonna do about it

Thr government doesn't give a shit

[gusty delta]

also art is expression and if there’s no expression the art feels daft….
that’s my take

[naive thistle]

It's extra money they don't want to spend

[tawny robin]

people vote 👍

or they take initiative themselves

[humble panther]

can i just mention

[fading zealot]

eh, not that it changes a lot

[rigid mountain]

a plastic spoon is very large

[tawny robin]

which is why i mentioned initiative

[fading zealot]

yeah initiative is a much bigger deal

[tawny robin]

"be the change you want to be" and whimsy

[fading zealot]

yes

[potent mortar]

I bet my mind spoon is bigger than your mind spoon

[humble panther]

one thing about art as protest is that it stands against something. it doesnt uplift. it makes you feel negative emotions. why cant we have art that looks good, that depicts great successes, great people, great places?

[fading zealot]

no fr that's absolutely true, I feel like too many people think that by voting they're changing anything

[tawny robin]

we have that too

[humble panther]

in my room i have art scattered about and the purpose is to make me feel good

[fading zealot]

that's honestly extremely rare

[lofty orchid]

for the garbage water, the person who made it gathered the garbage themselves. if everyone got that much garbage oyut of the water it would be a significant amount of garbage, we dont need the government always

[potent mortar]

Why can't we only have good things that are nice and never feel anything bad at all (?)

[naive thistle]

Already have numerous organizations and groups of people attempting to spread awareness about problems like this, attempting to fix it. It's outweighed by the increasing stupidity of people who don't care about their waste because it's more convenient to them to just throw it away

[lofty orchid]

we do, why cant we have both?

[naive thistle]

You might temporarily het people to do something big. Then it goes back to being normal

[potent mortar]

(me saying that) is kind of a bad faith argument, but the devil's advocate is a fun role to play

[fading zealot]

I don't think that's exactly the best argument? Even classical art often depicts evil beings, demons, etc

[gusty delta]

WRONG
if we didn’t have the government there’d be no garbage for people to grab
The people need the garbage!

[humble panther]

sure

but there was plenty of art dedicated to uplifting

[tawny robin]

just because the odds are against you doesn't mean you should give up. if that was the status quo most of us wouldn't be here

[humble panther]

a lot of american art that has withstood the test of time is propaganda related stuff

[potent mortar]

We're actually several layers deep of ironic arguments arguing against ironic arguments

[humble panther]

based around wars we fought and won

[fading zealot]

I can see the point that you'd prefer more art to be about pursuit of greatness rather than negativity towards the bad

[vast bluff]

I think this worldview is beyond defeatist and kinda depressing

[humble panther]

yes

[potent mortar]

Nothing ever happens

[fading zealot]

but I also don't think that makes the other type worse in any way really

[naive thistle]

And yet it's sadly the truth

[humble panther]

it doesnt, but my view is that we have a very lopsided view of art

no balance

thanos would be upset

[naive thistle]

There are too many people in the world who don't care compared to the ones who do care

[tawny robin]

i feel like taking on a defeatest attitude in response to this just worsens the problem.

[humble panther]

bruh

[gusty delta]

BOOOOOO

[humble panther]

the american revolution was done by like

[gusty delta]

BOOOOOOOOO

[vast bluff]

More people care than you think.

[gusty delta]

BOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[humble panther]

10% of the population

[fading zealot]

Do you know the 7 rule?

[gusty delta]

YOU STINK

[tawny robin]

LOL

[vast bluff]

REAL! THANK YOU!

[vast bluff]

rude

[lofty orchid]

ok lets say this art outreach stops. what is art to you? i consider writing a form of art, it takes effort to write, and you have to think, and sometimes ytou need to learn new skills in writing to move forward on your journey. speech could be an art, persuassion is a skill you have to learn. so lets say the art stops. the organizations sdont put out posters, dont write letters, dont say anyuthing. how do we know about the issues now? where is the awareness. dont assume everything you dont like happened after the stuff you support. someone had to start it all, and someone has to keep it going. and im just going to say ok to the second statement cuz sure yeah i guess you can say that, i dont want to assume everyones just an idiot. sure people dont know all the time what happens with waste and see it as just a convenience to be able to throw it away, if only we could show them what happened to it with say a sculpture made of it at an exhibition in a major US City

[vast bluff]

YOU TAKE A SHOWER INSTEAD

[tawny robin]

did you just reply to yourself

[fading zealot]

The 7 rule is essentially that if you take any society (that wasn't recently like massacred or otherwise felt a significant worsening of their circumstances) and ask a sample of people how happy they are on a scale of 1 to 10, it will always average to about 7

[naive thistle]

I tell people to clean up after them selves, I dispose of my stuff properly, and yet I constantly see more of it,I don't say otherwise to be defeatist but simply practical

[vast bluff]

i wanted to skip the wall of text...

[naive thistle]

I'm not gonna ignore the problem and pretend it can get better

That's just being dumb

[lofty orchid]

oopsie

[vast bluff]

nah it's fine

[tawny robin]

i'm not saying ignore the problem or pretend it can get better....

[fading zealot]

People need emotional stability, and they often feel similarly regardless of the scale of issues plaguing them

[gusty delta]

So what we need to do is make them feel a significant worsening of circumstances

[fading zealot]

major changes in recent memory are the things that change the average

[tawny robin]

peak end rule my goat 🔥

[fading zealot]

and changes in the average are the things that get people to be more prone to acting

[humble panther]

bruh

lets tally

ill bet most of you here feel worse than 7

[gusty delta]

Tbf we are not representative of the whole population so like

[fading zealot]

I'll legit answer 7 and I honestly believe it

[gusty delta]

Eh

[naive thistle]

Its a fundamentally flawed rule though because it depends on the period of time

[vast bluff]

you're not supposed to be an accelerationist-

[naive thistle]

You may exist in a point or period where there's not any drastic problems

[gusty delta]

I BESET YOU WITH A ROCKET BOOSTER

[naive thistle]

What about the next generation

[fading zealot]

again the point is that people's happiness is relative and not absolute

[naive thistle]

A lot of people simply ignore most problems

[gusty delta]

ANXIETY SUCKS MAN

[humble panther]

i genuinely dont believe that we have it any worse than our parents or grandparents do, but our mentality has gone down the shitter en masse

[naive thistle]

They want to be happy so they ignore anything that might make them unhappy

[tawny robin]

https://youtu.be/4Owj52XhoxI?si=ZOdoJDOEasTVgR3D

[gusty delta]

IF I SPENT EVERY DAY WORRYING ABOUT WVERYTHING I’D HAVE OFFED MYSELF BY NOW

[potent mortar]

alright guys I have to prove that if a sum of the digits of an integer is divisible by 3, the integer itself is divisible by 3

[humble panther]

like

[gusty delta]

I’M NOT DOING THAT TO MYSELF

[humble panther]

suicidal thoughts are normal for my generation

what the fuck has happened to you guys

[naive thistle]

Honestly not really, we live on the times they built and the struggles they went through

Our lives are in most cases a lot better

But it also means we are free to ignore a lot more problems

[potent mortar]

this is such a crazy take when you can look at statistics that say the exact opposite

[fading zealot]

tbh I definitely have it way better than my grandparents because they lived half of their lives under a dictatorship

[potent mortar]

you don't even NEED the statistics though

[humble panther]

you can also look at statistics that say its better too

[gusty delta]

Just because someone has different problems than someone else does doesn’t make them irrelevant..

[potent mortar]

you can literally just ask some questions

[humble panther]

numbers do not speak for themselves

but clearly

my generation is absolutely fucked

because mentally speaking

[fading zealot]

I think it's too general and vague to be worth analyzing tbh - we certainly have it better in some aspects and much worse in others

[vast bluff]

i'm telling you, most people don't "ignore" stuff out of malice or nature, they're driven to try to ignore the ills of the world because the ways to change it is complex and overwhelming if you don't have a good worldview

[potent mortar]

what's the average income vs the average price of buying a home

[humble panther]

everyone fucking hates life

[naive thistle]

Counter point, previous generations living through times of starvation, war, poverty, inhumane working conditions. Current generation, oh no I can't use my phone

[humble panther]

yeah its high rn but historically speaking not unprecedented

youd be shocked

ive crunched these numbers before i am partially an economist

[potent mortar]

Historically yes, but within the last generation?

[vast bluff]

Those are still things that happen to current generations dude

[humble panther]

tends to hover around 4-8 in america

[tawny robin]

terrible strawman

[humble panther]

has for the past 80 years or so

[potent mortar]

The baby boomers had a free lunch

[naive thistle]

Not in most first world countries, mostly

[potent mortar]

a free breakfast, lunch, and dinner

[naive thistle]

The countries it does happen in its been happening in for a long time or simply hasn't stopped

[humble panther]

yeah their houses were also on average twice as small

so youre getting more house per dollar

[fading zealot]

minimum lot sizes yeah!!!!!!!

[humble panther]

plus dont forget your income peaks when youre about 60

[potent mortar]

I'm not getting any house per any dollar, because 10% of the population owns 90% of the wealth

[vast bluff]

does poverty not exist in the first world

[humble panther]

you have time bruh

[naive thistle]

Yes and we basically created it

[humble panther]

this defeatism

its a mentality

this generation is mentally fucked

[gusty delta]

you are CRUEL and BORING

[tawny robin]

you've said that a couple of times now

[naive thistle]

I'm practical

[gusty delta]

YOU LACK EMPATHY FOR YOUR FELLOW MEN BECAUSE YOU ARE TOO BUSY THINKING ABOUT THOSE WHO ARE ALREADY DEAD

[gusty delta]

YOU'RE CRINGEEE

LIVE IN THE PRESENT MOMENT

THIS IS WHERE WE ARE MEANT TO BEEEE

[fading zealot]

I have to correct you here: we didn't create poverty, poverty is the default state of man

[potent mortar]

It's not defeatism to look at the facts

[tawny robin]

i would like to shake hands with you mache

[fading zealot]

I think you mean we're destroying the prosperity we built

[potent mortar]

I'm likely not going to be able to own a home until the market crashes

[gusty delta]

MY MAN 🤝

[naive thistle]

I possess sympathy for those who are having problems, but I'm also not gonna ignore that they were created so other people could live better lives

[potent mortar]

until then I'm going to work

[gusty delta]

BOOOOOOOOO

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[vast bluff]

mache is so real even if they're so loud

[naive thistle]

Greed is most times a common trend as to why these problems exist

[tawny robin]

cya later akimbo o/

[vast bluff]

-# that's Right, text is loud

[fading zealot]

greed is honestly more or less stable, I'd say high time preferences are the real issues

[humble panther]

youre probably looking at household income

[potent mortar]

byyyye I have to write paragraphs for a class instead of for #memes now

[fading zealot]

people wanting stuff now even if it hurts later

[humble panther]

which has not grown because households are going down in size

[naive thistle]

Why do we have so many homless people in recent years? Oh right the government cut funding to support shelters and as a result not many of them can afford to stay open, as a result people can't get the help they need

[hallow zephyr]

greed is the only reason there is a single person who isn't fighting tigers in the jungle

[humble panther]

personal income chugs along

[naive thistle]

Because taxes are raised

Because rhe cost of living and groceries is spiked higher then it should

[vast bluff]

why did the government do that

[fading zealot]

that's a very confrontational way to phrase it... but you're not wrong

[humble panther]

whatever honestly trying to convince you guys is rubbing your depression off on me

ill get out of here

[fading zealot]

you won't stay even for me? :(

[humble panther]

stay strong never relent

just add me lol

[fading zealot]

oh fair enough

[humble panther]

im not going away forever

[vast bluff]

^^^^^

[naive thistle]

Honestly I'm happy with my life, but I'm also not gonna ignore everything just to make myself happy

[tawny robin]

https://youtu.be/ne6nj9AgY7M?si=8dBdbI0HNk0f8_tk have a woodcock! they are good for the soul

[fading zealot]

they vibin

[humble panther]

nature is art

[tawny robin]

ong 🔥

[vast bluff]

"I'm happy, but I'm not gonna make myself happy"
make it make sense if not happy

[fading zealot]

also housing crisis, minimum lot sizes, 90% of some cities zoned for residential housing and like almost none for apartment complexes

[river trail]

What are you trying not to ignore that others are?

[fading zealot]

turns out you can't buy a home if the only home you can buy is super expensive because you can't just buy a flat like a normal person

[vast bluff]

like, either you're unhappy with the way the world is (real and true), or you are actually fine with it

[hallow zephyr]

the greed to emotionally satisfy yourself by forcing you will upon the entirety of humanity makes the greed of the worst robber baron seem tame. and i'm not entirely sure how much this is a joke.

[naive thistle]

I honestly hate how the world is going, it has so many problems, but I already accept that so it doesn't make me unhappy, just annoyed

I get annoyed at people who cause the problems

And j get annoyed at the people who ignore them

[vast bluff]

and what does it mean to "ignore" them

like, according to you

[naive thistle]

Basically pretend they don't exist

Or ignore them

Like it's self explanatory

[vast bluff]

And what do you do to solve that

[gusty delta]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1033508951343517766/1297679884092702882/pokes_you.gif

[vast bluff]

like, you dont have to need to be out there trying to convince chuds and the like, and really guessing here and idk, but it might be helpful for you to find ppl who think the same as you

[fading zealot]

I think I'm following

[vast bluff]

like, personally, knowing ppl who are against problems is quite freeing and eye-opening

[random marten]

Glorp species violence

[naive thistle]

A lot of problems simply can't be solved by just caring because they aren't as simple as just doing something. Unless you can actually find a politician who cares about their country and doesn't become corrupt and out for themselves

Which in that case good luck

Because when you do find one they are usually stuck fixing the problems the last one in charge caused

[vast bluff]

how are problems not solved by doing something

[naive thistle]

Reduced and solved are different things

[vast bluff]

like, doing something that won't fix the problems? yeah that isn't gonna fix that
but people can fix problems and they try because otherwise a self-wallowing self-defeating cycle

[naive thistle]

Solved means it's completely gone

Reduced means its better but not fully

[vast bluff]

lets get into the real life for a second

do you think literacy programs shouldn't be tried because they won't 100% solve illiteracy

[rigid mountain]

illiteracy

[vast bluff]

thank you

[tawny robin]

somehow i misunderstood your sentence as program machines who couldn't read and thought of heuristics

or maybe i'm using that word wrong

[vast bluff]

https://tenor.com/view/good-burger-some-of-these-gif-12933391

[naive thistle]

Well I like to think most people learn how to read in school and that most people should be allowed to go to school. Which should cut down on the literacy rate by mostly all of it

[tawny robin]

LOL

[vast bluff]

(something to learn, yipee)

[naive thistle]

But at tye same time a lot of people aren't allowed to go to school for a lot of reasons

[fading zealot]

...incentives are overwhelmingly against that

[vast bluff]

but that's not gonna do 100% literacy

so we shouldnt do them then

you get how this logic is self-defeating?

[naive thistle]

A lot of times illiteracy comes from people who don't know the native language fully yet

Or people who weren't taught

[tawny robin]

(its this if you're interested)

[vast bluff]

thanks

[indigo burrow]

Reading is complicated, yeh you can understand how to read but understanding it without thinking is another topic they choose to not teach you? Maybe that’s my situation, but how do y’all read ?

[tawny robin]

yeah reading is pretty tough

when i read english i can recognize a word by the shape of it

[desert condor]

meanwhile I'm here at the side reading a dozen books a week

[tawny robin]

i have the literacy of a 2nd grader for arabic though, and i have to individually decipher each character when reading

[indigo burrow]

We a bit slow hey

[naive thistle]

I mean I don't stare at a phone all day, and I was taught to read and write in school so, I'm pretty good

And I usually read a good amount of words in a day

[desert condor]

I read books for enjoyment so I also am pretty good

[vast bluff]

it's like a psychological pitfall because "why try to make stuff better when the situation needs massive changes, nobody cares anyways" when people are able to talk to people and discuss why stuff has to change, and perhaps, maybe actually change stuff??

[fading zealot]

agreed

little steps

[tawny robin]

agreed

we're not looking for a perfect solution, just a solution

[indigo burrow]

the school systems need to change, for sure. They didn’t care in the past but they realised they gotta induct these people to another level, or we are doomed

[tawny robin]

i sadly don't read as many books as i used to but instead i've gotten into this rabbithole of thousand chapter long translated chinese novels

[vast bluff]

i think like

everyone will agree stuff has to change

that's the first step i think idk

-# "stuff" being super vague because there is a lot of stuff that needs changing

[indigo burrow]

Would learning chinese be a life changer, since you know more then one language?

[desert condor]

That's fair, I think those count as several books in one in my opinion (I consider like 500 amazon kindle pages equal to one book)

so like long series not sperated in amazon series, are basically just series not separated

[tawny robin]

hmm chinese would be very hard for me to learn. the ones i read are already pre translated but it'd be cool to learn so i wouldn't have to rely on machine translations if the human translations are behind :)

i know how to speak arabic, but only a certain dialect, so its hard for me to read it

[desert condor]

Honestly though, I personally don't like chinese fantasy work because... well, they're basically all garbage

all speed no quality

[tawny robin]

LOL they have quite a reputation

thats why i love them

i just want to turn my brain off and read something i can enjoy in the moment

there's so much face slapping and convoluted plot points and revenge and i love it

[indigo burrow]

What sorta books, do you enjoy?

[fading zealot]

there's pitfalls to this approach too though

[vast bluff]

correction: "similar to", not "because"

the self-defeating doom mindset is sad and needs to be done away with

[tawny robin]

it might be objectively bad writing from one perspective but i enjoy it

[fading zealot]

too often people find A solution and conclude the problem is solved now when it really isn't, it just got better

[tawny robin]

mostly revenge/time travel/reincarnation stories. i like rooting for the underdog of a book :)

[tawny robin]

completely agree here

[potent mortar]

Pin of shame type beat

[tawny robin]

hi gumbo

can't wait for jimbo

[indigo burrow]

i love the concept of time travel, and futuristic stories telling. They all have it in them, but the ones that stand out have massive potential for us

[green haven]

It really is. It's amazing how heartless some people can be

[fading zealot]

I thought about how you should actually approach stuff like this and I concluded that if a politician wanted to apply this approach properly it would result in really funny campaign slogans

or legislation names rather

"Barely Functional Economy Act"

[indigo burrow]

In my story, heartless people are the motivation to get rid off them. Yeah some are there to make you stronger, but the others they’re just vile

[fading zealot]

"Not Completely Insane Fiscal Policy Bill"

[tawny robin]

"Hanging by a Thread Advisory Policy"

[fading zealot]

yeah

like you'd have to show people you're making changes for the better

but also that you should by no means consider the topic closed

[indigo burrow]

You could always make changes if you want to get better. But you gotta remember it’s the people, that need to change their mindset to make this world a bit peaceful. Stemming from the government to the people of the world, that’s what it comes down to. Or like, we sit stagnant and live in fear for a long time

[desert condor]

you'd probably enjoy regression stories then

[tawny robin]

i LOVE HTEM!!!!

they are my absolute favorites

[desert condor]

Truth be told, I also enjoy them, but really mostly because I really like a skilled mc having a proper chance

[tawny robin]

true!

i really enjoy stories where a character knows how to balance their knowledge of the future w/ changing it with their new choices

i've dropped a few stories when i feel like the main character doesn't have much say over their life despite it being their goal

[supple idol]

Did anyone give you a hint or do you still want help?

[vast bluff]

onion headline type names

[potent mortar]

Noo it's okayyy I was mostly just saying it to hold myself accountable

admittedly I would understand school better if I studied more

[supple idol]

This for discrete math?

[potent mortar]

Yeah

that, cryptography, and the sieve of Eratosthenes is what this assignments about

cool things I think

[supple idol]

Very cool things! I've taken intro to proofs and history of math, but not cryptography.

[potent mortar]

Honestly, history of math sounds interesting

[supple idol]

It's super cool, you get to learn about ancient numbers systems and how people solved algebraic problems without algebra.

[desert condor]

yeah, there was one I read and dropped where the mc quite literally just was like "I shouldn't have been sent to the past, and I'm just going to help the person who should have as a side character"

[tawny robin]

ughhh thats such a common trope

and they just refuse whatever evidence that proves the contrary that is in front of them

[supple idol]

https://tenor.com/view/gay-seeking-rabbit-meme-caption-gif-24264024

Obligatory meme for the meme channel

[potent mortar]

Yeah that sounds like it could be a fun class

It was crazy to learn that people were keeping track of time with sun dials in 1500 BC, but it makes sense

[supple idol]

We got to see how Newton did calculus before things like limits were formally codified.

"The Method of Fluents and Fluxions"

[desert condor]

You may enjoy a story on Royalroad.com and amazon known as "Apocalypse Redux" where the mc came back as the sole living survivor of earth and does whatever he can to prevent the destruction of earth again

[tawny robin]

oooo

i will bookmark that

[potent mortar]

Heh, fluxions

[dense onyx]

https://tenor.com/view/memes-meme-gif-11551228173732073137

[potent mortar]

Be the change you want to see in the world

[tawny robin]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/822902893157810231/1299037751857119344/twitter_1849277600981832056.gif

here is my meme

[dense onyx]

nah, imma take twitter's approach to it and just scream and cry about it until politicians do something about it

or maybe I won't

that's for me to know and for you to find out

[potent mortar]

thank you

[dense onyx]

funni

[desert condor]

just so you know the ones on royal road are not yet on amazon, and the ones on amazon are taken down content-wise from royal road, resulting in amazon holding some books of the series, and the rest of the series not on amazon yet to be on royal road

which is why you'd see a couple hundred chapters missing on royal road for that story

[naive thistle]

How did people solve algebric problems without algebra?

They were smart : )

[supple idol]

Usually by using geometric arguments

Such as the Egyptians when solving for the volume of a truncated square base pyramid

Although their exact approach isn't yet known, most suspicions point to geometry being their MO

[naive thistle]

It is honestly fascinating what people used to do to solve problems

[rigid mountain]

The world would be so much better right now if people had 8 fingers on each hand.

[gusty delta]

unfortunately not everyone has spare fingers on hand..

we should rectify this....

[dense thicket]

well we've got programmers who like doing base 2
just be glad ternary machines didn't become widespread, because then computers would be using base 3...

not for lack of trying, they did exist

[naive thistle]

Forget 8 fingers on each hand

Give me two more arms and hands and then I'll have ten extra rather then 6 extra

[naive thistle]

Lpl April fools videos are always so good

[elfin turret]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/979705509328334880/1355403130443141150/caption.jpg?ex=67e8cd08&is=67e77b88&hm=268c14386d569e15e23b5aa46581c5b11caa289feabda7b1a8bd49ad7b6ad068&

[jolly egret]

coil head

[verbal flame]

Gelato in JoJo's Bizarre Adventure

[vital spire]

https://tenor.com/view/post-this-cat-with-considerable-gif-25994702

[scenic glade]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-that-powers-ur-server-gif-10936967761441447094

[random tiger]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/761349513440657408/1355148984762499333/-D09FD180D0B8D0BAD0BED0BBD18B-D0B4D0BBD18F-D0B4D0B0D183D0BDD0BED0B2-D180D0B0D0B7D0BDD0BED0B5-D09FD180D0B8D0BAD0BED0BBD18B-D0B4D0BBD18F-D0B4D0B0D183D0BDD0BED0B2-D181D0BE-D0B7D0BDD0B0D0BDD0B8D0B5D0BC-D0B8D181D182D0BED180D0B8D0B8-8851573.png?ex=67e7e057&is=67e68ed7&hm=745c69811ac902ad00830cdd9b63d8fa06e65f85f065792e19ca8dbea840c4d2&

[steady robin]

https://tenor.com/view/gorilla-ape-monkey-funny-game-gif-20427841

[raven wyvern]

https://tenor.com/view/bored-ape-bored-ape-nfts-nft-nfts-nft-meme-gif-25392001

[desert panther]

https://tenor.com/view/fish-react-gif-7648022949778489336

[raven wyvern]

https://tenor.com/view/fish-fish-with-legs-fish-out-of-water-running-cry-about-it-gif-7656330698207565037

https://tenor.com/view/pink-wojape-crypto-crash-bayc-bored-apes-wojapes-gif-26319962

NFT's deserved to die from the begginging

[desert panther]

cope

[thin lynx]

i mean they basically did die from the beginning lmao

[raven wyvern]

Nft's and crypto function based off the concept of the greater fool falicy

[desert panther]

do you think you sound smart, you didnt even spell it right

[raven wyvern]

i'm dyslexic words are giberish to me

[desert panther]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1135952228033757224/1244057359014428754/caption.gif

[raven wyvern]

and yes I'm statistically smart

[raven wyvern]

https://tenor.com/view/sleepy-yawn-dwarf-snow-white-seven-dwarves-gif-5439779

[raven wyvern]

Skipping electrodynamics... since you didnt ask about that... but Its basically charge, and electromagnetic fields... And the wavelengths of energy... Basically waves and particles and they interact in different ways...

First space and time are in truth one thing, these in turn create the vacuum dimensional plane... which we can view as a flat 2d space for simplifiction.
Gravity on the other hand is another force, that warps this plane of space and time, and the heavier an object the bigger of a weight they have on it, causing it to lower down into indent into the plane.
Inside these gravitational wells, its harder to escape from, this can be seen from earths perspective by looking at terminal velocity to escape the earths gravitational pull.
Next When gravity reaches points of mass aproching infinite known as singularities/black holes, the indent becomes for all intents and purposes infinite.
Meanwhile energy is also on the dimensional plane of space time, and if you reach the speed of light everything is instantious, the universe cant travel faster than that.
This is a very brief summery of both kinds of relitivity... Also known as the world of the very big... will bring this back up later.

Quantium mechanics on the other hand relates to sub atomic particles,
Which are broken into 17 sub atomic particles. It dosnt include gravity.
These particles are forms of energy that make up all atoms, and from here mass is formed...
There 4 kinds of these particles known [more hypothosized]
First there is the electron and 5 other particles like it,
next is the 6 particles, top and bottom ones make up most atoms...
There is also a negativly charged varient of these 12... [which make up antimatter atoms]
Next is the catagory of photons, which serve as force interactions, like photons and electromagnatism, and 3 more... [2 bozons and 1 gluon for weak and strong forces respectivly]
Last is the higsbozon creates a field that all other particles go through, which is what defines mass, as everything is simply energy.
These 5 dont have negativly charged varients and dont have charge.

Now I can talk about quantium super positions, the part that false vaccum decay relates too.
First the truth is there waves and particles, the particles we observe have 2 different properties, light for example is both.
But they are all in a state known as a super position, where they are present and not simultaniously. [swardingers cat]
Basically in a atom the electrons are always in a super position around the atom, but its position isnt fixed. In truth it exists in a rough area/field that isnt at a finate point but encompasses a general area.
When we try and observe them they undergo a process known as decay which forces them to collapse into a positon, as either "alive" or "dead" as in the cat thought experiment.
We cant find anything smaller as its impossble, as to go smaller requires more energy exponechally and at a certain point it would create a black hole.

Simply put all energy and subatomic particles are on a state of energy, that decay when observed. For this reason they are in a rough location but constantly fluctuating in terms of super position.
This in tern leads to what is known as the vaccum, which is the lowest state of energy, and what all particles strive for, its known as energy. [basically point at where all energy is equelly dispersed across the universe] which creates the passage of time, as time is created by particles trying to reach this state.
But False vaccum decay is if the particles are at a false vaccum and not at the lowest state of energy. This were to mean if the particle were to fluctiate into a super position where they find a lower state of energy known as the true vaccum, that it would "move" to reach the lower state of energy, and a chain reaction would follow at the speed of light. Causing what is known as false vaccum decay a possible end of the universe.

basically the grand question in physics is trying to unify both the world of the very small, [quantium mechanics, and electromagnatism] and the world of the very big. [relativity, and neutonium mechanics]... Our current attempt is the standard model which manages to combine nearly everything from both, but the 4th fundemental force known as gravity... and the reason the graviton is talked about...
Another issue is dark matter, but its possible they are one in the same as gravity..
string theory, and loop qunaitum gravity are some hypothisis of this.
One purposed solution is the gavaton a 5th bozon particle.
There also possibly is a 5th fundemntal force...
I did skip explaning partical physics... But just consider this a butchering of the fields in an attempt at simplifying the key points of these subjects...

cope all you want you nft shill It changes nothing how they have all nearly lost 99%+ of there value

[desert panther]

tldr

[raven wyvern]

well you dont get much simpler properly expalining relativity and quantium mechanics

[desert panther]

u just copied and pasted wikipedia, not that smart imo

[raven wyvern]

nope I copy pasted my explenation to someone else 2 days ago

and No 95+% is stuff from the top of my head... the last remening stuff is things I forgot the name of and had to look up

[desert panther]

blah blah blah GET real

https://tenor.com/view/cinema-ai-gif-4552698184117910519

[supple idol]

swardingers cat

LMAO

Good shitpost Eternal, I almost took the bait

[raven wyvern]

#🌎wynncraft message
#🌎wynncraft message
Meh cant win arguments but I can atleast tell my side of the story.

also the one thing the typos prove is I wrote it all myself XD

[supple idol]

Yes that much is obvious

[thin lynx]

how are people arguing again smh

[supple idol]

Eternal watched a bit too much PBS Spacetime and tried to explain QM and the Standard Model.

[thin lynx]

eternal is not the bad one here

[raven wyvern]

... I have actually watched lectures.... and studied physics...

[thin lynx]

(also whats with the pbs spacetime hate smh)

really helped me get to sleep on time a while back

[supple idol]

I have a degree in physics, currently pursuing a masters. There's many small but important errors in your summary.

[raven wyvern]

I didnt even touch the standard model. I dont even know where to start with that mess... without talking about all 4 fundemntal focres, electordynamics, qunatium mechanics, and both forms of realitivty...

Standard model, loop quantium gravity, and string theory all go over my head curently

[raven wyvern]

I mentioned how I was butchering it and skipping most of it to explain it briefly to someone who has no background in it...

I skipped so much complexity since it would go over their head...

[supple idol]

Complexity isn't my concern. It's getting things wrong.

[raven wyvern]

"also yes this is basically as brief as I can go... scientists would butcher me for skipping stuff like, asyncrinization between antimatter and matter and stuff...."

which things... I skipped sections and took shortcuts since I didnt want to explain other sections...

Also this was at 10 am for me... [was up since 6am that day] and trying to stay within the message limit... and not double checking everything I myself see several errors rereading it

vacuum dimensional plane...
Is for example the complete wrong terminology... Its the 4 dimensional planes of space and time... 3 space 1 time dimension.
Gravity warps spacetime, creating wells of gravity.
Which require exponechally more energy to escape from until it becomes near if not impossible to escape, at black holes/singualirties. since the speed of light is the fastest things can go... Energy is a complicated thing but I skipped talking about electordynamics intentionally.
from a photons perspective their entire existence is instantious.
This isnt even talking about dark matter, anti matter and its asymetry, or even talking about the equatiions. Let alone talking about factors faster than the speed of light, atomic forces, and how they impact stars... [and so many other things]

Basically me throwing everything on the top of my head at the wall trying to briefly summerize it without double checking or rereading it all to allow them to understand what false vaccum decay means...

you can either try and focus on points that relate to your argument or try and explain everything, the second option takes forever...

[supple idol]

And I think, if someone asks you something about physics, you should respond with focus points. Throwing everything at them all at once will only confuse both you and them.

[raven wyvern]

fair enough... I will concede on that point... its best to focus on simple things... because otherwise you will both confuse things and make a mess...

[supple idol]

Background information is important, but equally important is recognizing which background information to cite.

[raven wyvern]

Problem with adhd is once you start you cant always stop

[raven wyvern]

yeah.

[desert panther]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1168669983543406622/1351055314371215410/qIFw2xe3.gif

[supple idol]

https://tenor.com/view/what-am-i-looking-at-cat-confused-gif-25251297

[raven wyvern]

Meanwhile I cant even say I understand the standard model only adiquate understanding of special, and general realtivity and quantium emchanics...
Even then I still have sections I lack knowledge on... For example I dont fully undersand all the bozons yet... I can undersand the principles behind them but I dont properly understand them yet.

I also generally dont just focus on physics, as I am someone who is intrested in nearly every field leading me to mixing up temonology and information.... [reason why papers take me like 30 hours]

Then there is string theory... which is what the hell am I even looking at... your telling me the entire universe is 10+ dimensions, and vibrating strings...

and yes about pbs spacetime... I did watch there videos but that was me in early highshool... helped me undersand the principles to a degree... But they are wrong in so many other ways... Like for example, based on what again, your listing random names without explaining what they meant. please do things in order instead of randomly. Second no that is a massive oversimplication and is wrong, Third, you pulled that out of nowhere sources please otherwise your talking crap.

I am somsone who does use youtube videos but I generally watch entire lecture playlists from universities. [40+ hours minimum generally]

in case your wondering why string theory goes over my head simply skim read the wikipidia page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory

I cant understand/imagine 3 dimensions well let alone 4.... You think I can imagine 10+ when I lack a visual memory... I need to see visuals...

sorry for my rant... plain and simple anomaly is right dont just listen to youtube videos and think you know a subject...
I will admit currently my understanding of subjects exeeds my mathmatical capabilities but that stems from me not doing any math courses in nearly 2 years now...

[smoky gyro]

man every time i open this meme channel theres people chatting about random garbage or i see the most brainrot unfunny memes like holy hell when will this be a decent meme channel, YIKES

[raven wyvern]

@supple idol
Sorry to ping you but have you read this series?
https://www.amazon.com/The-Theoretical-Minimum-5-book-series/dp/B086YBGTWJ [cant undersaand it all despite reading them all several times]

[stable zealot]

@raven wyvern yo im js curious how much money u got ingame

[raven wyvern]

rn? or networth.

[smoky gyro]

cute cat

[raven wyvern]

or raw

[smoky gyro]

cat memes always good :3

[raven wyvern]

https://tenor.com/view/lions-gif-8378528163450527836

[stable zealot]

all 3

if u can

[raven wyvern]

.... rn my networth is ~1500-1800 probably... But most of it is illiquid, due to them being collecables much of it being things only i'm intrested in.
~100 stx liquid in mythics and raw
about 65 stx raw rn.
~700 stx in liquid collectables.
rest illiquid collectable items from festivals and other discontinued things

[stable zealot]

what are stx?

[raven wyvern]

The one area Im best is comprehension.

[raven wyvern]

64 le.

[desert panther]

stox, basically wynncraft stock market

[stable zealot]

ohhh

[desert panther]

u can invest in cities and guilds

[raven wyvern]

I basically will never be a true expert in anything...

[desert panther]

dont say that

im sure youll be great at physics or whatever

[raven wyvern]

I am an information sponge, but will never reach professors of level... But I can reach a level below expert in many fields

[stable zealot]

wait so r u saying ur like richest or

[hybrid robin]

1.5k stx is by far not the richest :P

[stable zealot]

oh

idk im js new

so

[raven wyvern]

not studying phycis, in fact I am studying philosophy because I couldnt decide what to study... I'm basically intrested in everything but I cant remeber specific details well enough.. language, numbers, and pictures are all giberish to me... I cant naturally understand them

[raven wyvern]

probably top 50

[stable zealot]

just curious whos the richest in the server then?

[raven wyvern]

or so

but I do have the largest collection... not the most valuble since I am missing 5/6 most expensive things

[hybrid robin]

no idea

[raven wyvern]

no idea... but some people guess its the person with 13+K hours of playtime

[stable zealot]

ohhh

[hybrid robin]

ik bluethesniper has >3k stx

[stable zealot]

therss no way to like check ?

[hybrid robin]

nope

[raven wyvern]

I basically liquidated my networth to get the biggest collection possible...

and now i'm near broke

unless I sttart lootrunning or stooping to buying shares... which I have done twice now...

since tm flipping isnt viable anymore.

atleast for mass profit.

[stable zealot]

how do u get like rich then since im new

any good methods

[raven wyvern]

tm flipping but my methods are dead.

only one left that is stable is share flipping even then its less so than pre 2.1

basically 2.0.3-2.1 killed most of my money making methods

[stable zealot]

whats tm flipping?

[raven wyvern]

without grinding

trade market flipping

[stable zealot]

ohhh

[hybrid robin]

flipping mythics kinda works if you know whats good and whats bad

but it can be risky

[raven wyvern]

less effective than what it used to be... as markets are in flux]

[hybrid robin]

yeah

[raven wyvern]

all safe profitable ones are dead

besides runes.

[stable zealot]

is it okay if i add u in a gc w a friend? his tryna become rich thats why and he wants ti like learn more i guess

[hybrid robin]

with balance changes like every month

[raven wyvern]

yeah

[smoky gyro]

can i also be added pls

[raven wyvern]

2.0.3 also largly killed mythic flipping

since weekly rotation

[hybrid robin]

i made a decent amount off of heroes

[raven wyvern]

I sadly dont have the time rn...

midterms

[stable zealot]

add me ill add u in it

[desert panther]

its better this way, lootrunning has made mythics more of accessible to normal players instead of being an investment for the 0.01%

[raven wyvern]

2.1 killed gxp armor crafting market which I used to hold a monopoly over.
Also killed t3 mat flipping
And ingrident flipping to a degree

[hybrid robin]

mhm

[raven wyvern]

then share flipping got killed last year... profit dropped from 2x to 1.5x but still the most stable method left.

so basically my money making methods got killed.

[stable zealot]

add me back so i can add u in a gx if thats okay since a friend tryna learn how to make money fr @raven wyvern

[desert panther]

arent you ashamed, youre not even doing any work

just stealing money from those who dont know better

[hybrid robin]

nah

its using your knowledge to make money

[raven wyvern]

to a degree yeah but I mainly did it due to low playtime

Also I see markets as full of fools look at the stock market.

never going to try on the stockmarket since that also has forces of psycological manipulation and stuff...

[hybrid robin]

also if you dont buy something that someone put up for way cheaper than usual then someone else will

[raven wyvern]

basically wynncrafts tm is a very simplified stock market I guess

[desert panther]

web3 is just 100% rugpulling imo

[raven wyvern]

yes.

ew crypto isnt web 3 🤮

[desert panther]

at least stocks have an actual real life value attached to it

[raven wyvern]

Its all about the greater fool falicy

[desert panther]

true

[raven wyvern]

also about manipuating how people percive your stock... cough cough tesla.

[desert panther]

its safe to say some stocks are way overwalued, especially in the tech sector

[rigid mountain]

Doesn’t that make it worse?

[desert panther]

valued

[raven wyvern]

yeah web 3 is worse

[desert panther]

market and supply manipulation

[raven wyvern]

yeah... illegel in our world but still done... More backhanded now unlike wynncraft which is more simple.

[raven wyvern]

if you want something closer to real life check hypixel skyblock...

[desert panther]

i wish it was banned in wynncraft but not really any way to enforce it