📚lore_discussion

[full jackal]

soosu looks 10 years old

[mossy badge]

Ye

[full jackal]

theres no way she was more than 18 when she became sovereign

[mossy badge]

We agree then

[full jackal]

but i agree somewhat with this part maybe

but like idk i just think that saying soosu was more than 15 is insane

[mossy badge]

Well as an adult atleast

[full jackal]

wdym?

[mossy badge]

Childish personality is coping mechanism when she becomes adult

🤯

[full jackal]

I mean look

[mossy badge]

Coping about what tho

[full jackal]

soosu can act like a grown ass woman

because she is a grown ass woman

but she‘s sorta stuck in a child‘s body which means its hard for her brain to develop

so like i do think part of the childlike persona is to cope with her depression

simpler times yk

like im just sayin

this mf looks younger than me

[signal bough]

it would be the queen's biggest mistake if she elevated a child to being a sovereign

[mossy badge]

Why

[full jackal]

literally look at her for like 5 seconds

[full jackal]

i don‘t think queen really gets humans

she doesn‘t understand that soosu is a child and children can‘t become politicians

[signal bough]

it's the biggest mistake a human could make I would say

[full jackal]

Queen isn‘t huamn

[full jackal]

nahhhh

the biggest mistake you could make is being human

[signal bough]

something that should have been obvious but it was not because of that, and it comes to bite her through the poor management of the roughworks and Soosu restraining Zhiraok

[whole river]

It would explain why the rough works looks like it hasn’t had any management in centuries

[full jackal]

Honestly i really hope soosu is trying her best wirh the roughworks

cuz if she isn‘t then

like why would yoh make the roughworks this shitty on purpose

[whole river]

I think she’s more just completely hands off

Even mistwoods is less shitty 😭

[full jackal]

i mean yea soosu is a child

[whole river]

Very smart plan from the Fruma queen

[hybrid gazelle]

The beta char for fucking deleted but it wa a comfirm that Soosu is a young adult

I try to find it

[full jackal]

but usually children are the people getting f8cked in politics not children f8cking over everyone else

[hybrid gazelle]

I gonna go ask other ct about it

But one of them said she suppose to be in her 20s

I gonna go ask other

[whole river]

I still find it odd roughworks doesn’t have a way bigger rebellion when we arrive

Cuz it sounds like the conditions there are outright abysmal. How on earth is there not a constant worker’s strike

[hybrid gazelle]

Indoctrination and they have better view of the queen because they associate her with their only break in a year

[full jackal]

dude are u sure they weren‘t talking about majin

[hybrid gazelle]

It’s psychological manipulation

[full jackal]

or zhiraok

[hybrid gazelle]

wtf does that even mean

[signal bough]

Zhiraok does look like he's in his 30s

[full jackal]

majin looks more mid 20s

[hybrid gazelle]

He not what

[whole river]

Indoctrination doesn’t really work when you have like a family member drop dead every other week in the factory

[full jackal]

theres no way this fuckass child is in her 20s

[signal bough]

yeah Majin does look mid late 20s but big

he could be older and he just waxes

[hybrid gazelle]

Then they blame it on something else I pretty sure

I think they mention it before

[full jackal]

thats what the cursed are for

[whole river]

That’s my question then

[hybrid gazelle]

Fruma did not really go deep with this

[whole river]

Who is to blame for the roughworks populace

[hybrid gazelle]

But Fruma queen suppose to be worship likes god

[full jackal]

hey look guys i know your life is terrible

[hybrid gazelle]

Manager

[whole river]

Even slaves revolted in our time

[hybrid gazelle]

They do

[full jackal]

but like this is somehow the cursed‘s fault

[hybrid gazelle]

I think that like

Corkian and stuff

[full jackal]

soosu and her majesty

[whole river]

Oh they were rough workers?

[hybrid gazelle]

Yeah

Corkians are roughwork workers

[signal bough]

its like Mistborn: The Final Empire, where the emperor of the empire is the ultimate good and opposition to him makes you morally and spiritually bad

[full jackal]

soosu is a grownass woman whos too busy acting like a fuckass child to not be a terrible ruler of the roughworks and exploit every worker of every day of their life

[hybrid gazelle]

So there are rebellion in the past

[whole river]

Kinda surprised there hasn’t been another attempt if that one succeeded

[full jackal]

her majesty doesn‘t care and probably indoctrinated soosu into believing this is okay or smth

[hybrid gazelle]

Steel feather coukd counts one too but yasanu made a deal with Soosu

[full jackal]

still love her though they could never make me hate you

[hybrid gazelle]

Knowing fruma, theu probably install some anti air shit or propaganda about how they later find the air balloon crasher among the mountain

They would go that far proabbly

Not like citizens would find out about corkians

[whole river]

The perfidious fruman rocket launcher

[hybrid gazelle]

I think it very likely that the crown would lie to roughwork about how they find the air balloon crashed and everyone die in there as example of hostile outside world

And everyone quick to forget about the incident

[raw badge]

ngl I almost felt like Off the Rails could have a sort of "Train go boom" thing

[fervent sun]

she is a sovereign since she was a child and her time perspective seens affected

[raw badge]

But that would be a bit over the top but whatever

[hybrid gazelle]

I think the reason for not having train go boom thing

Is that they won’t fucking habe another train for fast travel 😭

[full jackal]

honestly tho her majesty‘s propaganda isn‘t even that good

[hybrid gazelle]

Trains are expensive to make and you can’t just

Shit one out immediently

[raw badge]

Fair

[hybrid gazelle]

Especially in fruma where railways are limited

There like only 2 line

[full jackal]

yea i do feel bad for soosu

but shes gotta realize

[raw badge]

I suppose Treyarch would also be pissed as this was from Black Ops 3's mediocre campaign (at least its better than BO7 but I won't argue about it)

[whole river]

I guess corkus kinda explains the current roughworks leadership

[full jackal]

shes responsible for the livelihood of so many people

[whole river]

Where the more aggressive rebels just left

[full jackal]

and like theyre all overworked to death

[whole river]

And the pacifistic ones stayed

[full jackal]

sent to wynn

And they will never see any of their work benefit themselves

[hybrid gazelle]

She is well fucking aware but it something that she can’t do anything

Trying to do something to ease worker life would result in lower production

[whole river]

I meant the rebels that escaped not the captured ones

[hybrid gazelle]

And the queen would likely take notice

Being sovereign of roughwork proabbly the hardest shit

If you trying to be a good person

[weary sigil]

it's also kinda clear soosu wanted to be a good person

[full jackal]

it honestly depends on what the relationship between queen and soosu is

[hybrid gazelle]

Because you genuinely unable to do anything to improve the quality of life for the people

[weary sigil]

that's how the industrial age came around in the first place

[hybrid gazelle]

Because anything mean less production

[weary sigil]

she made robots so that her parents and friend could take a break

[hybrid gazelle]

She did not make robot, she just make like

[whole river]

Girl needs to look outside there’s five people living in boxes vomiting blood and smog

[hybrid gazelle]

Actual farming contraption

[full jackal]

Maybe i‘m just wantinf her to do bad things because i enjoy morally grey characters more

[hybrid gazelle]

It not robot lol

You can literally see them in the game

They are just mechanism to help with farming production like you see irl

[weary sigil]

robots are a lot of different things

they don't need to be automata

[hybrid gazelle]

Well yeah but when you say robot

[whole river]

Soosu’a apathy honestly makes her lowkey worse than Majin in terms of who it effects😭

[hybrid gazelle]

I assume fucking humanoid machine

Then just say machinery

[weary sigil]

that's a you thing my guy ¯_(ツ)_/¯

if you say automata i think human/personified

robots can be a LOT of different things tho

[hybrid gazelle]

There no way other people out there see the word robot as common machinery

Oh on

Hold on

[full jackal]

i mean though

[whole river]

Like Majin is the pinnacle of fruma’s wrongs, but the roughworks seems like the worst place to live

Olux sounds like fucking cinfras compared to anywhere in the roughworks

[hybrid gazelle]

@whole river what do you see when you think of robot

Like first hand

[full jackal]

who even receives the stuff the roughworkers make

[hybrid gazelle]

Just a question

[weary sigil]

the most common type of robots in the real world are industrial robot arms and autonomous wheeled platforms and the like

[whole river]

Like the corkus robot dudes generally

[full jackal]

Like highlands?

[hybrid gazelle]

Yeah extactly

I would assume thise fucking robot

[full jackal]

theres no way they need that much

[hybrid gazelle]

Okay rhat 2 for robot for humanoid machinery

[weary sigil]

A robot is a machine, especially one programmable via a computer, capable of automatically carrying out a complex series of actions.[1] A robot can be guided by an external or internal control device. Robots may be humanoid, but most are task-performing machines prioritizing functionality over aesthetics.

[hybrid gazelle]

Yeah sure man Ywah

[whole river]

Gelibord and Timasca competing over worst vacation spot cuz like damn

[sick quest]

lexdale clears

[full jackal]

How is that majin tho

[hybrid gazelle]

Honest

They are bad in their own way

[full jackal]

like majin is a cocky asshole and harassed gale

[whole river]

Lexdale witch trials at least are stopped

[hybrid gazelle]

Whcih is funny

[winged narwhal]

I mean, the quality of life in Timasca probably is still quite a bit above Olux

[whole river]

What do you mean

[pale spruce]

Go to Gelibord. Took the wife and kids once. They’ve got a bus tour to Lexdale. So educational.

[weary sigil]

majin is just as, if not more, apathetic than any of the other sovereigns

[hybrid gazelle]

Because gelibord is lack of government attention while timesca is too much al government attention

[weary sigil]

he's just not sovereign of the industrial district

[whole river]

Straight up impossible from what we’re told of the average job there. Unless fruman humans are built for 24 hour shifts or somethin

[winged narwhal]

Timasca has running water

[hybrid gazelle]

Consider it been 800 years

[full jackal]

Yea bht like also he doesn‘t rule over the roughworks

[hybrid gazelle]

I would not even be surprise

That the rough work workers are breed like that

[full jackal]

Yea he doesn‘t care but like even if he did what the hell can he do

[winged narwhal]

And is probably one of the few places in Wynn that a drought wouldn’t kill

[weary sigil]

i mean he's basically the queen's 3rd in command

[hybrid gazelle]

Timesca mfs on their way to work 24/7 while inhaling toxic fume

[weary sigil]

he could do something

[full jackal]

and like if anything his guys have the highest quality of life

[weary sigil]

if he really cared or wanted to

[whole river]

Majin is not responsible for everything wrong with Fruma, but he does absolutely support and maintain the problems

[full jackal]

not because of him but still

[full jackal]

ig i can see why ur point of view

[hybrid gazelle]

Majin is everything wrong about fruma aftually

Like

His entire existence

Fuck that guy

Queen most evil act is whatever she does that result in Majin being conceive

Idk wtf she does

[whole river]

Like the whole dam + water issues quest even in auburn could easily be fixed if the highlands weren’t total jerks

[hybrid gazelle]

But Xima should not fuck

[full jackal]

lmao okay

[winged narwhal]

Its ultimately whether you’d prefer living in a Great Depression industrial town with the workers rights of the Gilded Age or a medieval town under siege

[weary sigil]

house thalas is just bad in general

[full jackal]

oh my god its almost 3am i need to go to bed already

[whole river]

Gilded age lowkey is heaven compared to the roughworks

[hybrid gazelle]

Thalas house member struggle to breathe knowing that they did not ruin some beggar life that day

[weary sigil]

fr

[hybrid gazelle]

Majin felt pain when he think of the idea an auburn citizen get a full course meal

[winged narwhal]

Also the queen is actively preventing Soosu from improving the Roughworks

[hybrid gazelle]

Tbh there literally no way you could improve roughwork beside basic safety bar

[weary sigil]

PPE!

[hybrid gazelle]

Because queen will be on your ass when she realize the spook production is slow down by a day

[winged narwhal]

Soosu iirc was working on electric motors but had to drop it to work on the queens project

[hybrid gazelle]

The queen is literally a min/maxed of city builder in video game

Like

This is not even a joke thst literally her

She one of those people who play city builder simulator that not only maximaize shit

[winged narwhal]

(I mean the tech level in Timasca is all over the place but I digress)

[hybrid gazelle]

She is like ssethteezech when he play Egypt game

[winged narwhal]

Actually hang on - do we know what the fuel source of the Roughworks is

[mossy badge]

Industree sap?

[winged narwhal]

Like is it coal burning?

[mossy badge]

Ig

[weary sigil]

probably industree something

either that or coal mined from the penitence district

[winged narwhal]

Does Soosu have an oil rig somewhere?

[signal bough]

it's prob coal

[mossy badge]

Do u guys not get the industree SD smh

[winged narwhal]

Maybe the penintence district is Saudi Arabia

[signal bough]

looking into the wastelands, it doesn't really look like a desert

[raw badge]

So is Xeph by any chance gay or perhaps even bisexual? I know Yuman is likely his lover but idk

[whole river]

Do we know if there’s any towns in the wastelands besides the whole prison thing

[winged narwhal]

Anyways give Soosu five years without the queen breathing down her back and she’ll get the Roughworks in nuclear

[mossy badge]

Nope

[whole river]

Xeph?

[raw badge]

Zeph

mb

[mossy badge]

Grass is green

[weary sigil]

don't those two literally go out on a date or something 💀

[mossy badge]

The sky is blue

[raw badge]

I can't believe I typed Zeph with an X

crap

But I don't suppose he could've been interested in any females but idk

[whole river]

Oh I mean I thought he was bi initially cuz of Rex in the first quests only and Yuman but now idk forgot about him after he disappeared from the story and pulled up at the end. think he might just be gay

[raw badge]

Perhaps

Although maybe he and Rex could just be friends?

[whole river]

Yeah probably are

[sick quest]

zeph x yuman is some goated yaoi

[weary sigil]

https://tenor.com/view/in-shock-gif-17553158948252598097

[fervent sun]

oh yeah... industree are indeed for biofuel (i went there to check because last time i read it was in the beta MB)

[signal bough]

they're just very good friends

[narrow kestrel]

any epilogue stuff from apoth

aside from tasim in the leaves base

[mossy badge]

Nope

[narrow kestrel]

wow

😭

i highly doubt we're seeing the other resistance ppl after this

maybe sui but like

zeph and shit

prob gone

[fervent sun]

that liff pile guy in aelumia if you have the cracked sky from after the quest, i heard they have something to say but i never found them

[mossy badge]

Peakest epilogue 😭

W lief pyle

(He has nothing to say about anything other than 🍃 )

[narrow kestrel]

no warp/monster abuse

:((

[floral sequoia]

@solid tusk is there a discussion area for the conlang anywhere?

[narrow kestrel]

losing because no mages and shamans to help them in batcave

[brave forge]

is it really an xp party if there arent 3 mages on arcanist begging for heals (i am the mage)

[mossy badge]

#1489836179665981621

[sick quest]

me before becoming a chad riftwalker

[narrow kestrel]

i do wonder though

how successful would the past rebel groups be

if they had mages/shamans

i know sui is MORE than just a mage but like.

still

mages can prob do serious damage in fruma

[quartz mist]

public service announcement: Gikyo does not use they/them pronouns because they are a shapeshifter and therefore have multiple identities, it is simply the identity they chose for themself

thank you and have a nice day

[regal spire]

Gik/yo

Just had a talk gik yo mama last night

-Shmeg, 11/05/2026

[quartz mist]

people who insist it is because they are a shapeshifter are just. not correct. Gikyo does not have multiple identities, they just assume the identities of others when they shapeshift, and it is shown that they have a very strong personality that is very much separate from the personalities of those they change into

they're not they/them (plural), they're just they/them

[unique pumice]

Are they they/them in every form then or do the pronouns change with the assumed identity

Like if shape shifted into someone how do you refer to them

[regal spire]

I always found they/them as a pronoun to be interesting, in context of Gikyo. It’s a gender neutral pronoun, sure, but it encompasses its plural definition, too, since Gikyo assumes multiple forms. I always thought of them as an it, too, because of their inherent biology, but they feels literally perfect for them

[quartz mist]

if they are disguised as someone their own personal identity would not change, they would just be pretending to be something else

they don't like, gain pronouns suddenly

[young dock]

Gikyo performs a stance change every identity assumed

[narrow kestrel]

whats the most annoying set of SDs to do

i feel like nesaak is WAYYY up there

[shut mist]

Nesaak is easy

[golden sonnet]

At least they carry some significance. Corkus is both annoying and irrelevant imo

[shut mist]

True

The library one is annoying

The city with barriers too

And the fkn necklace

Yeah no

[golden sonnet]

The pressure plates for the necklace

[shut mist]

Corkus has it bad

[golden sonnet]

To be fair, ypu dont need to do the city with barriers for the sd

[shut mist]

True

[golden sonnet]

But the ATLA reference is cool

[shut mist]

But you get a helmet

If you do

[golden sonnet]

Indeed

[shut mist]

Ik nobody cares but

[vapid peak]

holy fucking shit, I can't believe I didnt realize this until revisiting Elkurn to do some horse training

[stable arrow]

Who is dat

I did all of fruma is that the person related to Rex

[exotic bough]

caid from recover the past

[fallow karma]

Bruh what

There is a conversation with Kaio, on top of Aledar's grave on Fruma

And he mentions Rex in this conversation

[exotic bough]

just realized that the quest rewards for the fruma storyline are associated with a character:
Meliorism (ANB) - Zeph (the belief the world can get better, zeph is an optimist)
Diverted Loyalty (TCO) - Mora (he was gonna join the fruman military, but changed his mind after syndra convinced him not to)
Sureshot (RiF) - Rex (obvious)

Amplifier (SoS) - idk
Espionage (TPoI) - Jiro (heavily implied to be replaced with a changeling at some point during this quest)
Mutiny (EoC) - Syndra (obvious)

Creed Catalyst (SiM) - idk
Conviction (TC) - idk

Concord Protocol (OtD) - idk
Dimachaerus (EoH) - CIleon (the name means wielding two swords, this is the only character to do this)
Shattershard (Apo) - Two (obvious) Sui (name likely refers to her usage of ice powers, but more importantly the elemental stats align bar the negative mana)

[summer bluff]

Conviction is 100% sui

[drifting aurora]

i would look at shattershard again

[drifting aurora]

ETA? eh

[summer bluff]

Why would True Colors not be sui?

[drifting aurora]

why would sui's item be ETA

[exotic bough]

Actually now that I look at it shattershards probably sui

Not sure how the negative mana ties into it though

[shut mist]

She doesent use mana

[exotic bough]

Two calls her a naturally-born manaweaver

[shut mist]

Yeah

She doesent really use much or she has a lot of it

[exotic bough]

But she uses the weave/elemental magic/mana throughout with water and ice magic

[shut mist]

Yeah

[exotic bough]

I’m not following how this means she doesn’t use mana

[muted crypt]

bra gikyo gay theory canon

[hasty beacon]

https://tenor.com/view/bro-just-typing-shit-bro-just-typing-shit-gif-18336060238854257551

[split night]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzFDjIDZs38
Roaring knight is dead

my friend made something, check it out

[lavish knot]

I think every fandom has their dedicated utdr circle, no complaining just observation

[dim plover]

I did see that yesterday

Very cool stuff

[split night]

Maria outdone herself this time xd

[warm flicker]

theres a phenomenon where if u learn a new language u develop a different personality when using said language, is something similar happening to gikyo whenever they shift?

[quartz mist]

that seems like a leading question. dont like it

either way they have a bit of a fit trying to imitate cileon because they dont like that personality and find it boring and troublesome

so. extremely extremely doubt it

[mossy widget]

i also doubt it because even as eccentric as rurie is gikyo's personality still shines through when they imitate him. they have a very strong personality that does not waver i imagine

if they lock in they can perfectly imitate people but they dont take on a different personality entirely

[full jackal]

okay maybe this has been answered before but are there instances of changelings shapeshifting so nuch that they end up losing their original form and personality?

[vestal rivet]

tbh Rurie not sticking the landing seemed odd to me
didn't clue me in instantly though, but by the time he was trying to pull us aside by ourselves I figured out what was happening

mostly was curious about how tf Gikyo managed to replace Rurie at the top of the tree
we would've needed to make it past everyone on the way up, then somehow deal with Rurie at said top with other Owls present right there

[mossy widget]

honestly the thought of gikyo eating shit landing on the ground as rurie is making me laugh

[vestal rivet]

yeah
which is at the top of the tree
surrounded by other Owls

[mossy widget]

it wasnt just gikyo there were other changelings who had already infiltrated. thats why we fight some owl members before gikyo's introduction

[vestal rivet]

there could not be a more isolated place to replace him from the ground, or a more crowded place in terms of witnesses

[vestal rivet]

ah that makes sense

[mossy widget]

ye

thats what rurie meant by changelings not playing fair i assume lolol

[vestal rivet]

those other Changelines better than Gikyo is though lol
Gikyo kept messing stuff up and fudging details, although the dove name calling was a nice save that did legit fool me initially

[mossy widget]

tbh it probably takes more skill to imitate rurie accurately than it does one of the common owl members

and we also dont know how long the canopy had been infiltrated for tbh

can i stop saying tbh

[vestal rivet]

that is 1% because of Rurie's personality and 99% because we know Rurie at this point

[mossy widget]

ye.......

i do love the detail of gikyo calling us doves

[regal spire]

Tbh idkitc btkstbh, t

[vestal rivet]

if anything though
Rurie's personality was an excellent mask of Gikyo's

[mossy widget]

yeah! i imagine thats why gikyo really didnt like imitating cileon cause they rarely speak LOL

rurie is the yapper and gikyo loves yapping

[vestal rivet]

if anything, Rurie was the prime target with how he handles things
very easy to play off a mistake as one of Rurie's quirks

as with the doves name calling

[regal spire]

Do we have any in game bits on why Rurie was so passionate about Majin’s death

What’s their story

[vestal rivet]

I think he implied he used to live in the Highlands, not much beyond that though

similar deal to that one guy we help in The Strong Survive

[regal spire]

His reaction is just really weird

[shut mist]

Tbh its very easy to hate majin

[regal spire]

Feels almost… sadistic.. almost… gik like 👹

[vestal rivet]

most likely got disillusioned, started hating Majin over one or more of a billion incidents, and escaped to the Mistwoods

[regal spire]

New theory: Gik is still Rurie. I mean, do we even SEE them in the same room?

[vestal rivet]

to be fair I also hated Majin with a passion
that pretentious piece of-

[mossy widget]

rurie also has

peacock feather daggers

👀 ....

[regal spire]

Uh oh

He was his tailor

“You know what they say… never piss off ya tailor…”

https://tenor.com/view/so-what's-the-problem-art-rosenbaum-invincible-what's-the-issue-what's-wrong-gif-14938190171134401221

[vestal rivet]

I wish we got more Fuhue and Cileon moments

Rurie was effectively the face of the Canopy
very Robinhood-coded if that makes sense lol

[regal spire]

He has the personality to fit it best

Azael’s more passive, Cileon isn’t so “verbose”, and Fuhue’s a stick made out of mud

[vestal rivet]

Fuhue is
ok Fuhue is hyperfixated on a few specific elements lol

Fuhue is on that spectrum

[regal spire]

They don’t fit the role of a cool Hero, that’s for sure

[vestal rivet]

Fuhue would've done EXCELLENT as a train conductor or logistics officer

[regal spire]

Not a train conductor

[vestal rivet]

he's a manager
he manages spies and keeps up with inventory

he's also
detached

[regal spire]

Yeah, you don’t really want a Robinhood handling your accounting ngl

Isn’t fuhue a woman

[vestal rivet]

I thought Fuhue was a dude

could be a lady

[regal spire]

I don’t really know ngl

I thought I saw some she’s in context with them

[vestal rivet]

Fuhue is so ingrained in the background we can't tell

[regal spire]

Truly, what all managers should aspire to be

[vestal rivet]

also I haven't seen direct confirmation of this but
the rest of the Canopy doesn't know Azael is a Changeling do they?

maybe they do, as he's lived much longer than a person should be able to
but I see no signs that they know

"Hey guys I have something to say"
anticipation
"I'm a Changeling, and have been since before we all met."
silence

-# the flags are then put awkwardly away

[brittle prism]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/262010576295821312/1378956841802928199/derncutscene.gif

[vestal rivet]

also wonder if there is an actual original Azael, or if Azael is an identity created by the Changeling itself

[brittle prism]

Is there an original Gikyo?

[hybrid gazelle]

We don’t know

[vestal rivet]

another good question

[hybrid gazelle]

Proabbly does not matter anymore

[vestal rivet]

lol
true enough

[hybrid gazelle]

Also dude we got like

Pinnacle of mischaracterization

[vestal rivet]

"we don't have a way of knowing but it affects nothing at this point so we don't care"

[hybrid gazelle]

Zhiraok is incompetent
Soosu is a child
Gikyo is rhey/them because they are shapeshifter

Majin did not get mischaracter this scale

Cause Majin is Majin

[vestal rivet]

Zhiraok is incompetent??

[hybrid gazelle]

There genuinely someone believe that 😭

[hybrid gazelle]

Two being fraud is coming close to being pinnacle of misunderstanding character

[vestal rivet]

Zhiraok is the most competent of the Sovereigns
to the point it isn't even a competition

[dim plover]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/296377212939010050/1500655888086863893/confession.gif

(They’re all in-character trust)

[vestal rivet]

yeah this scene pretty much

[sick quest]

Two the goat

Im so excited for more of twos story and i desperately hope we get some during wastelands

[slender copper]

I believe Trashie meant that these are misunderstanding of said characters. Like people thinking Soosu is just a child when we see in her lore that's far from the case.

[sick quest]

What is Gikyos gender fr tho

Im mad confused

Ive been they/theming gikyo

[hybrid gazelle]

They are non binary

I just mentioning all the some common misunderstanding character bit in the community

[brittle prism]

it's him, john wynncraft

[hasty beacon]

Why bald

[vestal rivet]

Gikyo calls themselves an it
all other references use they

[brittle prism]

John "Template" Wynncraft

[hasty beacon]

John baldcraft

Bald johncraft

[whole river]

Chills 🥶🥶🥶

[brittle prism]

i can see the resemblance
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1399831978072739901/1503563564613505024/image.png?ex=6a03ce30&is=6a027cb0&hm=abdfb3d678272629bc4efa7d4dc6db554d94250239b06595063080e3c1121cb1&

[vestal rivet]

waffle house!

actually my first time seeing Aledar's portrait

[slender copper]

They made the Aledar portrait!? The fact that Aledar has the soldier/rugged look I imagined compared to... anime Tasim... is bizarre lol

[slim belfry]

I felt Aledar always had that vibe to contrast with Tasim

[vestal rivet]

I like the rugged feel much more

[whole river]

I always thought Aledar was the top

[slender copper]

It is a very good contrast, yeah... but now that I think of it. With Tasim's entire powers being support/mobility related... his portrait makes a bit more sense.

[quartz mist]

that is correct

[brittle prism]

uhh am i leaking portraits i thought they added aledar's somewhere already

[slim belfry]

-# yeah it's not added in yet

[brittle prism]

oop

[mossy widget]

https://tenor.com/view/ishowspeed-fortnite-meme-laugh-funny-gif-17817986821160856652

[quartz mist]

but yeah, soosu being a child is...i can get the reasoning but it's very explicitly explained against in a few places. gikyo getting misgendered is also just kinda dumb. zhiraok being "incompetent" is again very explicitly not the case but with the way the player has to fight them twice i can get it, if youre not paying attention to dialogue

but where the hell is Two a fraud

[slim belfry]

I think Two fraud is because "she doesn't show up and doesn't do anything" or something

[slender copper]

The replacement photo 😭 🙏

[slim belfry]

when she does a lot of important things

[quartz mist]

all the others i can at least trace the logic, even if its so heavily flawed but where the shit is two talked up and then fails to deliver

[slim belfry]

nowhere

it's strange since most of her appearances are important

[hybrid gazelle]

Calling zhiraok incompetent is crazy when Majin is there

[quartz mist]

wynncraft fans doing squats in elementary school instead of reading the lessons (there is too much dialogue)

[vestal rivet]

Zhiraok loses against plot armor and almost dies when he overextends himself... doing something nobody else could

idk how anyone calls him that

[hybrid gazelle]

I have 0 idea some people just really want to her a fraud

[vestal rivet]

who was it who made those claims???

[hybrid gazelle]

Idk I don’t remember people on wynncord

I just know these claim once spoken in wynncord

[vestal rivet]

multiple people or just 1

bcs just 1 and I get it at least but multiple would be weird to me

[hybrid gazelle]

Again don’t remember but that why I don’t put two being fraud as common mischaracterization

I just want to say it exist cause it funny

[shut mist]

zhiraok actually works his ass off. look at the other soveraigns. both soosu and majin are neglecting their region and gikyo ... is doing his things ig

[slender copper]

👆 My question too as someone who loves lore (and is slightly dyslexic)

[quartz mist]

well a lot of people mock the power of bosses they've beaten, especially more than once. so i can see where that comes from if they dont care about story

[hybrid gazelle]

Gikyo do their job pretty well

They train changeling

[shut mist]

fair enough

but its nothing compared to zhiraok

[mossy widget]

gikyo is thriving ya. and also the only sovereign to properly capture us

[hybrid gazelle]

Majin is
Okay but compare sovereign before him? Fuck that guy

[vestal rivet]

Gikyo is left alone precisely because they do good work without oversight I think lol

[mossy widget]

they they they they

[hybrid gazelle]

What different for Zhiraok is that he try to improve his district

While Majin does not

Trying to improve your district is while different than just mantaining it

[vestal rivet]

Soosu tried to improve her district too
tried
past tense important here, and so is the word meaning there was an attempt, not a success...

[hybrid gazelle]

The problem with roughwork is that

Literally 0 way to improve the live condition

Because even if you invent new tech to help with production

The queen just going to increase quota

[quartz mist]

like i said i can trace the logic even if it's incorrect: zhiraok loses to the player twice over, so he's incompetent. soosu is small and likes childish things, so therefore she is an actual child. singular they/them pronouns are Woke And Confusing, so they're either not they/them or they're they/them cause they can shapeshift and are multiple people.

all of these are wrong and flawed arguments, but i can trace the logic.

i try to think of how someone could conclude two is a fraud and i draw a blank.

[slender copper]

||Good thing she's... not here.||

[hybrid gazelle]

The only seemingly solution is to create automatons but

You know how that potentially increase more problem

[shut mist]

corkus v2

[hybrid gazelle]

Maybe that why Soosu just make her golem her side project thing

[vestal rivet]

Gikyo refers to themselves as an it as opposed to any personal, human pronoun
so I just kinda assumed that they/them was assigned by everyone else not wanting to go through the confusion of refering to this person like an object

[hybrid gazelle]

And never try to add them to any task done by people in roughwork

[vestal rivet]

bcs I don't remember a single time Gikyo themselves called themselves they, always it

[mossy widget]

well yo udont rly

refer to urself

[hybrid gazelle]

Because you would not refer yourself

[vestal rivet]

true enough

but look at Gikyo introducing themselves to you

"You can call it Gikyo."

[mossy widget]

i think they were referencing the form they are in

[quartz mist]

I only recall one moment where Gikyo says "it" in reference to themself too, and that seemed to be more in reference to their title- much like they call zhiraok Sovereign Forest or majin Sovereign Highlands. a roundabout way of reference

[mossy widget]

true

[slender copper]

I would assume it's because Two doesn't try and stop the player even with their knowledge/observation of us? I do remember a image floating around with "potencial (blank)" about Two that can potentially be related to it.

[vestal rivet]

ok found the exact wording

[quartz mist]

ik the exact wording

[vestal rivet]

"What a delight! This before you is the form of the Ranger Mistwoods, Sovereign to these secretive little ants! The name it was given is Gikyo."
I think they're referring to themselves directly as opposed to any form?

[mossy widget]

yea its definitely in reference to their title

[vestal rivet]

or well

[mossy widget]

i was wrong

[vestal rivet]

the "self" form

[quartz mist]

yeah thats in reference to the title

[mossy widget]

the name "it" ---> (the title 'ranger mistwoods, sovereign')

[vestal rivet]

Gikyo being a title doesn't make much sense either???

[quartz mist]

that's the one potentially actually confusing line regarding gikyo's pronouns

[mossy widget]

gikyo isnt the title

the title is the title LOL

"it" is the title

[vestal rivet]

in this case, the "it" would be "Ranger Mistwoods", not their own name

[quartz mist]

Ranger Mistwoods is the title

[vestal rivet]

yes

and then the time the word "it" is used is the statement after the declaration of title

[mossy widget]

yea

bc its. abt the title

[quartz mist]

like i said it's the one potentially unclear line abt gikyo's pronouns compared to the huge pile of "they"s

[exotic bough]

on the topic of gikyo's pronouns: ik their default form uses they/them, what with an androgynous appearance and all, but when they transform into rex, do their pronouns temporarily become she/her, or when they transform into rurie/zeph/mora, their pronouns become he/him

[quartz mist]

no

their personal identity doesnt change

[exotic bough]

so its they/them throughout?

[quartz mist]

think about it like a theater performer

[slender copper]

It's um... it's still Gikyo, it just disguises themselves to look like them.

[vestal rivet]

well yeah that fact we're meant to use they/them is obvious
I just thought it was odd considering Gikyo pretty explicitly calls themselves and it directly upon introduction
idk how the it equates to the title at all, it's an entirely separate statement and idea, this one related to the name

[quartz mist]

a male theater performer dressing up as a woman for the role would not suddenly have his identity and pronouns become that of a woman's, nor would he become unclassifiable as an it if he were to dress as a monster or ungendered robot

[vestal rivet]

Gikyo only "switches" to impersonate
even if they're still in the form of another, if they aren't actively hiding as them, they go by they/them
literally only to fool others and dropped when no longer necessary

[hybrid gazelle]

They

[vestal rivet]

dangit keep messing that up

[quartz mist]

same with gikyo's transformations. their identity and personal pronouns remain consistent but to better play the role they would respond to the pronouns of whoever they're impersonating

[vestal rivet]

I got it like
half right that time? one he one they 1/3

[quartz mist]

so an even more severe failure to read the dialogue is the only way i can reach this conclusion by any route

the only possible way i can reach that conclusion is by not reading one damn line and assuming "oh theres a thing there must be an enemy. why isnt the thing attacking this character sucks"

like, total illiteracy

return to kindergarten

[vestal rivet]

you insult the kindergardeners

[slender copper]

Likely the people who are saying that are probably only here for gameplay and not dialog/lore.

[vestal rivet]

atp they shouldn't be making lore judgements then, seeing as they weren't interested

[quartz mist]

no i dont, thats a compliment to the kindergarteners- they could probably figure it out better than whoever the "two is a fraud" crowd could, or at least be willing to hear out the explanation

[slender copper]

That's the thing, they don't have one.

[vestal rivet]

you said they should go back to kindergardeners, implying they were on their level
hence me calling it an insult

but whatever semantics

99% of what I've been arguing about here is because I took a statement too directly

[mossy widget]

so many people come in here who are not interested in the lore and just say dumb shit

when they are clearly not. reading

[quartz mist]

READ, MOTHERFUCKER

(general statement)

[weary sigil]

you like semantics?

come help us decipher ancient fruman

[vestal rivet]

it accounts for a lot of the stuff I get wrong yes

oh goodness

[weary sigil]

https://discord.com/channels/143852930036924417/1489836179665981621

[vestal rivet]

I don't need the link I'm already on there

[weary sigil]

im going to recruit people until we can fluently speak ancient fruman

[vestal rivet]

I just kinda lurk and look but don't feel confident enough to help

[weary sigil]

just dive right in it's what i did and it kinda worked out

[vestal rivet]

having this be a second language before anything else would be funny

[weary sigil]

"we" as a collective here, though that would be hilarious

[vestal rivet]

try to learn ASL again
make OFSL

[weary sigil]

i mean both are S-O-V so

yk

not too far fetched

[mossy widget]

how far are yall into it?

[icy juniper]

wait did the queen of fruma exist before the corruption portal opened?

[hybrid gazelle]

No

Fruma that we know only exist for 800 years

[icy juniper]

when did she leave the realm of war?

[hybrid gazelle]

We don’t know

But fruma that we know founded at around

200 AP

Around 100 ap Bak’al still destroying stuff for her so idk

[icy juniper]

well was it for her? I don't think she really liked bak'al honestly

[vestal rivet]

I think she liked Bak'al at one point even if it definitely didn't last forever

[weary sigil]

pretty decent i'd like to think

not close to finished tho

[mossy widget]

icic

[hybrid gazelle]

He said it’s for war’s conquest and she did like Bak’al from the start

Until he gone to join Saphanis

She even said it herself thst there only 2 followers she gave a shit about

Bak’al and Two

[icy juniper]

also im just doing the ultimate secret discovery for nessak forest and the walls around the twain graveyard aren't black is this just a lore inconsistency or did the realm of dern not expand that far yet

[hybrid gazelle]

uhhh

Uhhhhhh

Idk

[warm flicker]

marius went to walmart for yard decorations and all they had were dernic decorations

[icy juniper]

ofc

[slim belfry]

considering real scale wynn is quite large the expanse might be far from the graveyard

[icy juniper]

you can see it ordinarily rn though

and it hasn't expanded much or at all afaik since the excavation

the dernel jungle gets its name from dern btw they have a secret second portal to dern

[hybrid gazelle]

oh no dernel jungle just named liek that

cause

IDFK

but it for sure not about dern

[drifting aurora]

its named after wynncraft composer needlr

[hybrid gazelle]

no way they might be the real dern beast,,,

[icy juniper]

saphanis is an anagram for needlr trust

[signal bough]

so Soosu just has magically induced depression I guess

[icy juniper]

is the player canonically completing every quest

[hybrid gazelle]

yes

[icy juniper]

Im 78% of the cannon playthrough goated

[split night]

yes

[icy juniper]

are world events one-time things in lore or do they keep happening all the time and our player is beating them every time

[split night]

I'm actually not sure
some said that it isn't some said it do

[vapid peak]

aFUCK THIS IS LORE DISCUSSION

[split night]

why are you saying this like we're evil

xd

[signal bough]

we aren't the starving horde of jackals known as #🌎wynncraft

[icy juniper]

yeah I mean I just think its interesting that some of them are like the corruption mobs trying to break the barrier to get into nessak forest which would have some lore implications if we lost and others are like "slimy schism" where its just slimes existing in the world

[split night]

#🌎wynncraft is the actual evil ones
we're the good guys

[icy juniper]

one would mean death to an entire village and the other's main contribution is that it smells bad

[hybrid gazelle]

World event is world event, it something that can just happen

so like yeah

outside of gameplay purpose it just establish event that may occur in the area

that mean giant fucking eagle is immortal

[split night]

it serve well as an even smaller lore nitbits than secret discovery

like, some of its lore is even more background than SDs

xd

I mean come to think of it, Caves also serve that function yeah

[formal bridge]

To be fair if we lost, we'd be dead. Considering that the player doesn't have infinite revives (no the death quest isn't canon) then we logically must win every single one without fail

[split night]

like we have a bunch of pirate related stuff Caves near Nemract

[icy juniper]

also the ruins of detlas secret discovery is impossible during the festival of heroes I was locked out of it until it ended just now lol

[hybrid gazelle]

I wonder is this general theming of dernic creature

or is it just something specifically control by Saphanis to be its army

[icy juniper]

they really like purple :3

[split night]

I feel like, Saphanis is gonna look just a little bit bug-like if we see a lot of these thing dern related

[icy juniper]

doubt, because the eye boss in EO was saphanis' eye

and bugs don't have eyes like that afaik

[split night]

I know

[split night]

they are not literally bug xd
Saphanis is a god I doubt the normal rules apply to them

if anything I kinda want to draw a bug with eyes and owl feature

make them all the more creepy

[formal bridge]

Honestly I feel Saphanis would have a similar kind of look to Gikyo if it makes sense

where everything is just slightly off

everything in SE is about twisting and changing normal stuff into eldritch horrors

Light realm is more life in abundance

which represents in an indistinct mammal appearance for orphion

[icy juniper]

nah I dont think the realms would imitate humans

[split night]

I-

[icy juniper]

I think that he'd be purple guy from fnaf

[split night]

don't think Solar said anything about that

I think the main point is that Saphanis will have normal feature on them that look slightly off

every single feature

[hybrid gazelle]

I hope we get ROL rework entirely for ROL rewrite

ROL is such disappointment for what it is

[icy juniper]

gikyo looks human and we didn't see him imitate non-humans

[split night]

I pray for a better Orphion design 😔

[limber swan]

they won't do it

he alr has a 2.1 style model

[split night]

I'll do it myself

[hybrid gazelle]

so true

[icy juniper]

I thought ROL was cool :<

[hybrid gazelle]

Current ROL just

boring

it too safe for being this divine place

[split night]

the little Cherub look so much more freaky god little thing than Orphion

[hybrid gazelle]

like cherry treant

REALLY?

these stuff literally feel like generic high fantasy

it not special

it not alien

[icy juniper]

the big tree doesn't look great but everything else was goog

[icy juniper]

bro orks are like right down the road from it

[formal bridge]

Not that literal

I was comparing the two because Gikyo is designed to look human but off

Eyes out of place, slanted to one side, proportions not wuite right

[icy juniper]

thats kinda like gavel's whole thing that its high fantasy, if you're expecting freakshows then its dern to be excited for imo

[formal bridge]

Saphanis should look like that but for life in general

two wings but they're different sizes, an odd number of eyes not quite centered right, two different kinds of legs

[split night]

yeah I got it from you that this is what you meant

xd

[hybrid gazelle]

orcs are fine because Gavel meant to be high fantasy

but ROL is not

it meant to be alien

look at current Light enemies from RoL

[split night]

RoL is literally a different dimension/world entirely

it should look alien to us

our mind literally trying to make up excuses to comprehend them xd

[hybrid gazelle]

they got the color right and stuff but like

why are there trees

why cant it be a deconstruction of tree

[formal bridge]

RoL is alien as in all the life is like life we would never see in reality, more wings, plants growing out of people, all that kind of thing

vs Dern which is all about twisted life

[icy juniper]

wybels are aliens, everything LOOKS like an alien because aliens are normal

[hybrid gazelle]

you

[formal bridge]

It's why I also think Orphion is more neutral compared to Saphanis being actively hostile

[split night]

you-

don't even get what i meant

😭

[hybrid gazelle]

dude

[split night]

just kinda bring an example out of ya butt for that one

[formal bridge]

orphion is just fine with the world as it is, versus Saphanis who loves making people miserable

[hybrid gazelle]

ALien does not mean came from space

ALien can mean something otherworldly and strange to the norm

that what the word alienating came from

andthe term alien we use

is similar to that ROL meant to be otherworldly and do not belong in our reality

[split night]

I would much prefer if the root of the tree were the leaves and the leaves warp the ground, it would look interesting
like a tree that you know that it is literally upside down and wrong

xd

like a very fricked up tree

[hybrid gazelle]

the tree need to look fucked up

its hould not look like real tree

it should be abstraction of one

it should be like

"oh I guess that is a tree"

[icy juniper]

my point is there's already so much that is weird and that its hard to make something look "weird" when there's already other weird stuff

[hybrid gazelle]

than "oh that is a tree"

[hybrid gazelle]

yet TNA exist so IDK what you talking about

TNA certianly perfect way to make alien enviroment that by all mean should not exist in reality

Realm stuff need to be more abstract

it does not need to abide by reality

get weird

get odd looking

[split night]

the path and the tree in RoL just look too normal to be something that resemble abstract concept

the fact that it take up the majority of the realm is BAD

[formal bridge]

I think RoL has a good starting point but it needs like, a bit of touchup to make it really land

similar to the entire questline lmao

It just doesn't quite deliver on what is promised

[hybrid gazelle]

I would draw comparison to backroom

but insteado f like putting random stuff

it's also alien enviroment

[icy juniper]

another day with completely normal animals

or the walking humanoid multicolored fungus in the same tree

I see these every day too

[split night]

This guys just want to feel like he is in the right 😭

[hybrid gazelle]

That one added post 2.1

Let me find my sketch for rol remake

[icy juniper]

I mean its an opinion lol

[split night]

even then those look pretty normal , you can see how the path still resemble the Physical Plane
I mean take a look at SE, it is still in the physical plane yet it look very alien to us

you can even see the tree with green leaves in the picture

😭

at least make the leaves purple or some shit

[hybrid gazelle]

This is like outdated stuff

If I were to remake it

Like if I revisit these idea

[icy juniper]

there's an entire road made of blue, purple, and pink blocks within render distance, right next to the tree

[split night]

I like the thought that most of them have or at least resemble Orphion symbol on them

[hybrid gazelle]

I like the idea of RoL being of open space

That entirely basked by daylight

From the sun on top of nexus

I proabbly show off my sketch later

[icy juniper]

the rocks are blue

[hybrid gazelle]

But I like the idea the whole space are always basked by the light from citadel

[split night]

not just one sun but like
what if 5

[hybrid gazelle]

Proabbly can work

[split night]

make them as freakily wrong as possible

[hybrid gazelle]

Will see

With more stuff from EoH I have more frame of refernece what I want for RoL

[split night]

I really want RoD to look like Deltarune's dark worlds with more twisted and freaky stuff in it

it would be so peak [[/gen]]

[hybrid gazelle]

Idk how can yoh even do it lik RoW

Where it feel like it’s endless

But whatever

But it fine since lore wise realm of light suppose to be small

[split night]

RoW was really nice, even though we experience like, a tower and some platform, it felt like it's really big and stuff

[hybrid gazelle]

Maybe habe fragment of land hint it

[split night]

it look like it made out of flesh and bones

[hybrid gazelle]

Yeah ROw is perfect example of alien space that just abstract lol

The fucking grenade that the little shit habe are just fruit

It just weird

Nothing make sense like why is there fucking nuclear bomb

And I love it

[split night]

we also have anathema pimple as bouncy thing

man if NoL have the same quality as WTP

[hybrid gazelle]

Tbh wtp just smaller

Like in term of gameplay

One of the idea I have rn

Is there mobs in RoL resembling elves

That always kneels in direction of the nexus

And just like sunflowe, rhey always face toward the nexus

And in lore theu meant to be the soul of elves that get blasted by the light when they cut down guardian tree

Including elder Prometheus

[icy juniper]

elves haven't been allowed in there wasn't that like why lari was upset at us also weren't you saying it should be alien

[split night]

resembling elves

[tepid blade]

That sounds horrifying, I like it

[split night]

like i feel like you just read half of the sentence and then comment on it

xd

[icy juniper]

no I read it and said that they should be more alien than that if he wanted it to be more weird

[full jackal]

damnnn

[split night]

the first half of your sentence stating a fact as if he doesn't know that

[full jackal]

Honestly i think inlore elves could have a religion where they think that if they die but are in service to orphion

[icy juniper]

thats a creature that already exists and im just wondering what the cohesive want is from these two seemingly opposing thoughts

[full jackal]

they get to spend their afterlife in Realm of Light

[tepid blade]

The idea that these elves souls are probably trapped within the ROL could be used for good horror

[full jackal]

but they don‘t know thag that‘s never happening

[split night]

the first elders sinned so they serve Orphion eternally as punishment

really neaty concept

[tepid blade]

A hell in a place they thought was paradise

[icy juniper]

well elves existed before the portal was opened and haven't been let in so it wasn't like they were made to resemble another creature or evolved from them, so im wondering what could've created a creature that looks like that

[full jackal]

yeah thats actually a really cool idea

[shut mist]

looking at the lore now, it almost seems like orphion wanted the tree to be cut down

[icy juniper]

convergent evolution would be the best explanation but that contradicts the idea that it should be more "out there" in visual language, so I'm just confused on what they want, if its weirder concepts then making something that resembles something already existing and within 300 blocks of it predating it isn't that weird just a timeline inconsistency

[tepid blade]

Orphion would have created them, they are the souls of the dead transformed into a horrific mockery of life

[formal bridge]

That's my personal theory as well, since that act is what allowed both sides entrance into the world again

[tepid blade]

That is a theory I have had for a while as well

[formal bridge]

Orphion just reeeally sucks at fighting Dern as far as we can tell

[shut mist]

yeah

it makes sense

[formal bridge]

his big move was a big obelisk that saved the souls of some random miners

my personal theory on that front is that Orphion is very passive and focuses a lot more on using pawns and people to fight rather than directly affecting the world itself

[icy juniper]

see if he gave an idea like this then I would've believed it working in their own concept of what ROL should be, but also this contradicts orphion's orders to cut down the tree, so why punish them for letting orphion expand their territory? its a character assassination of orphion then imo but also orphion wasn't done great by the writing initially so ig its fine

[formal bridge]

the problem is that the elves and Lari interpreted that to mean Passivism was the best thing to follow

not the best strategy for warfare lmao

[tepid blade]

To Orphion, it wouldn't have been a punishment, it would see their fate as a blessing, but to the souls it would be hellish

Oprhion doesn't care what happens to living things unless it affects him or that living thing could help him

[icy juniper]

but elves don't die, so it would've had to be an exterior force the punishment would've been him killing them but orphion wouldn't kill people to "give them a blessing" imo they have enough empathy to not kill people

[tepid blade]

The original message said that it was the souls of the elves who's souls were blasted by the light when they cut down the guardian tree

[full jackal]

I honestly think that there should be an option to tell Gavel about the elves secret in AldSec II

[formal bridge]

Mmm, I don't think that really fits well

what would it accomplish? all the elves involved are dead already

The current elves are just the people trying to cover up the shame of it

[icy juniper]

oh yeah my bad I guess I got sidetracked on tangents sorry, I also don't remember if people died from them cutting down the tree did this happen and I just forgot about it?

[split night]

they die of old age

[icy juniper]

no they don't thats what the quest was about no?

[split night]

the later elves got blessed by the influence of the realm crepting to the surrounding

[split night]

😭

[formal bridge]

that's literally what the big reveal of the quest is

[split night]

what are you on dude, like literally in the quest you have to interact with their graves to continue

how did you even misremember this

[icy juniper]

I was thinking current day elves' souls would go to it since you mentioned them dying from old age and thats why I was confused

[split night]

they canonically die from old age
in Trashie concept they get blasted by the light after the tree cutting

this is, literally two different events

like there were multiple elves present at that cutting event, so it make sense that there would be a lot of them in the Nexus concept

[hybrid gazelle]

their design resemble elves is needed in this case to empahsis on the fact they are soul of the elves

they are not originate in ROL

[hybrid gazelle]

also this too

[split night]

yeah like

[hybrid gazelle]

context matter

[split night]

that's literally the point

[icy juniper]

okay but them dying of old age wasn't what I was talking about so I was confused why you brought it up

[split night]

i don't even know why this have to be said out

😭

[split night]

.

you asked for it i deliver

[icy juniper]

okay yeah that makes sense I just don't know how they get into ROL because ROL doesn't let things in

[formal bridge]

That's why

I think you're getting confused with Trashie's rewrite and what actually happened in the story

[hybrid gazelle]

yeah y rewrite of ROL is entirely different

[formal bridge]

Trashie is talking about a hypothetical rewrite where they get let in when the tree got cut down

in the actual game, they died due to old age

[split night]

I thought this is very clearly put

[drifting aurora]

its so funny that they just die of old age at the end

[sick quest]

I hope if RoL gets reworked we see a lil more Dullahan involvement

[split night]

face zero consequence of their action
they don't even know the consequence

😭

[drifting aurora]

like not even related to the cutting of the tree. nah. they just die of old age. right before the immortality takes effect. lol. lmao

[formal bridge]

Dullahan needs literally anything to resolve his sidequest

[sick quest]

Fr

[hybrid gazelle]

they use what left of the tree to make good blunt and die from it

[formal bridge]

at the moment he's a setup to a raid that got replaced with wurm

[hybrid gazelle]

that shit too loud

[full jackal]

i think its kinda sad actually

they have to live with the guitl for the rest of their lives

[drifting aurora]

nah dullahan raid got replaced by tcc in 1.20 lol

[sick quest]

Dullahan one of the most interesting gavellian characters for a single side quest

[icy juniper]

alright was missing context ty

[full jackal]

knowing that they doomed everyone

[formal bridge]

Ok, dullahan got replaced with big statue lmao

[split night]

the most relevant they had in their entire life was causing the 1000 years war in wynn and the decay indirectly

[full jackal]

yea exactly

[split night]

they literally don't know about that

[full jackal]

i don‘t know how i woild live with myself like that

[split night]

and they die peacefully of old age

[formal bridge]

not much better when the emotional core of an entire quest of RoL just sits in a castle doing eeeevil and we do nothing

[full jackal]

how would they not know

[split night]

the second Elders deduct from it

[full jackal]

the parasite just coincidentally appears at the same time

[split night]

The first one didn't know

[split night]

not really

the parasite thing was a bit later than that

[sick quest]

Maybe Fruma has spoiled me but there are so many loose threads from gavel that i think can all be really well tied together as we head towards dern

[slim belfry]

loose threads

[full jackal]

well damnit

[slim belfry]

like

[formal bridge]

Yeah I think a good chunk of the story needs a revamp before we seriously go for a dern update lmao

[split night]

The Parasite arrive at around 200AP

[formal bridge]

So much of it is either barely built up, poorly written, or nonsensical

[full jackal]

so kike they cause a worldwide calamity and they didn‘t even know they were just like oh okay and die peacefully?

[split night]

pretty sure

[split night]

yes that's percisely that

[full jackal]

fuck them

[drifting aurora]

no

parasite was 0 ap

[split night]

the second Elders at least show some remorse even though they didn't do anything wrong

[split night]

oh neat

[silver spade]

im ngl that sounds like a level 71 quest name

idk why

[slim belfry]

which wiki even is this

[drifting aurora]

if i didnt make this clear i think this is incredibly dumb

[slim belfry]

auree can you check the powder specials page

[sick quest]

Like we've essentially solved the major issues in the canyon and molten heights, but the Dark Forest and Light Forest are still gold mines of lore

Working in Aldorei and Dullahan too

[split night]

what

[slim belfry]

oh weird I thought that was fandom

[formal bridge]

read the text literally right under that lmao

[silver spade]

rol questline should be extended to 15 parts

[formal bridge]

or above it

[silver spade]

trust

[full jackal]

i mean well rol should be the first part of a bigger storyline

[split night]

please make them suffer in the nine circle of hell

in the rework

xd

[formal bridge]

That time date only happens when dulla is complaining to Lari about what she's doing

[sick quest]

Imagine if Dullahan finally leaves his keep in the first Dern quest

[formal bridge]

the first flashback happens right after teh taproot one, which shows the parasite showing up immediately

just more evidence of how Orphion started the war up again yet had way less strategy to start with than saphanis lmao

Saphanis was on it immediately with the parasite

orph showed zero pre planning in contrast

[split night]

I wish for Lari to kill Dullahan right then and there in RoL3 so it can make her outburst in RoL4 make more sense

or at least something like that??

hell even just remove the outburst and let her kill Dullahan would mkae more sense

[sick quest]

I mean Lari killing Dullahan after having not killed the Parasite would give the Lari haters endless ammunition

[formal bridge]

Make the RoL quest centered more around Dullahan

like, 1 can still set up the wurms if we cwant to keep that

[split night]

😭

[sick quest]

Lari's most admirable quality is her ethical system

[mossy widget]

dude i fucking WISHHHHHHHHHH

[full jackal]

i mean i like rol3 but lari isn‘t even in it in present day its kore of an infodump

[sick quest]

If she kills Dullahan her ethics falls apart

[formal bridge]

2-4 are about her breaking down realizing she has to kill her bestie, accepting it had to be done at the end

And then 5 is visiting the realm once orphion gives the thumbs up

[split night]

being a good person in the wrong place wrong time make you an awful one
tis just fate

[formal bridge]

LMAO her ethical system is crap

it's literally the "batman shouldn't kill people" but even worse cause like

She jsut tries to talk a parasite into leaving

[sick quest]

Fr

[formal bridge]

or put the equivalent of a big glass over it

[sick quest]

Dawg its literally just virtue ethics yeah

[split night]

This is literally just batmat and joker shit

[sick quest]

Same as Batman

[formal bridge]

her pacifism would work way better if she was in literally any position other than god's chosen

[sick quest]

Its the enforcement of a moral imperative

[sick quest]

Yeah

[formal bridge]

Batman has arkham to throw people in and incompetent guards fail to actually hold people in there

[sick quest]

Orphion is utilitarian, Lari is imperative/virtue ethics

[formal bridge]

Lari is literally the one who is supposed to deal with these situations and she thinks she can just talk a giant angry worm filled with parasites into calming down

[sick quest]

Yeah but would not having Arkham mean that Batman should just all of a sudden kill his villains

[formal bridge]

If said villains are a parasite which is destroying the environment and killing everyone then yes

Even batman kills monsters and nonsapient beings

[sick quest]

Maybe you and I might think that but its not as easy a choice as we might make it out to be

[hybrid gazelle]

rough sketch of the idea

[split night]

This is so very cool

I love this

[sick quest]

Yeah because he can make a more easy distinction about what is within his species

[formal bridge]

If she was just hesitant on killing like, Bak'al and Dulla it would make more sense

but she is literally seeing the parasite ruining things for CENTURIES

[sick quest]

But if Lari decides based on species than what does that mean for villagers or humans

[formal bridge]

And never makes the determination that it has to be done

[sick quest]

True

[formal bridge]

this isn't a villager or a human

[sick quest]

Thats why we see her descend into a sort of madness in RoL 4

[formal bridge]

this is a parasite transforming the landscape to a hellscape over the course of centuries

[sick quest]

She gets trapped in the sunk cost fallacy

[formal bridge]

Lari literally causes all the problems in RoL lmao

[split night]

RoL1 - Lari ethic is that everything is sentience and concious enough to feel pain and nothing deserve death

[hybrid gazelle]

you can cut the faithful's root and they will always face the nexus no matter how much you turn them

even break their own neck jsut to look at nexus

[formal bridge]

I think RoL confronting the ideal of ultra pacifism is really interesting and unique

[split night]

if she could have someone like a god who's here to guide her

[sick quest]

I just think we shouldnt write off Lari as annoying or dumb

[formal bridge]

but I still don't like how Lari's arc culminates in a mid quest in the RoL and then gets shunted to the hell dimension

[sick quest]

She is honestly rly admirable

[formal bridge]

Oh I love Lari as a character

she's very flawed though

And I can admire her perserverance while acknowledging she chose something really, really bad to perservere about

[sick quest]

She has lots of flaws and I deviate from her ethics in lots of ways but she is incredibly brave/determined

[drifting aurora]

i find it much more interesting if you assume she remained pacifist for so long because it worked for anything else she came across

[formal bridge]

yeah I think we need like

One flashback at least

[sick quest]

Oh yeah we need more Lari

[formal bridge]

Show her dealing with the worms in -50 AP or something and solving it peacefully

[sick quest]

More Lari and more Dullahan everywhere

And more Maxxie and more Ava

[formal bridge]

We already have plenty of flashbacks in the quest already, what's one more lmao

[hybrid gazelle]

we need to treat creature living in decay less like mosnter but more of animal trying to live

the quest barely try to make that a thing at all

[sick quest]

I adore all four of them

[hybrid gazelle]

and also unsupported by side quest

what happe nto grootslang is fine i just wish there are more xample of Lari method work

[formal bridge]

Compare it to fruma, which is one again showing the strength of writing of new wynncraft

[hybrid gazelle]

because the thing is that at the end of the day many creature in decays are just starving creatures

[split night]

Gavel have so many living being that is alive and conscious but we just kill them like we kill the corrupted anyway is so weird to me, we still do it after the Orc quest

[formal bridge]

We get to see all sides of the rebellion, different tactics, and how both sides struggle and cause harm

Syndra has a bold and seemingly good plan, but she gets a lot of people killed as a result of her action

[split night]

the writter cooked