📚lore_discussion

[rotund gust]

assumedly it will be expanded on in the wastelands

[slim belfry]

didnt he also help start the recruit program

[rotund gust]

yeah

[slim belfry]

dude is behind a lot of things

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1490018575162020042/1493420333489848403/image.png?ex=69e82211&is=69e6d091&hm=7994613b0d744090116d5bc037ef28c0ea96d45bc84444bd88136c15ce35cfe1&

[rugged trench]

you think wastelands is beyond highlands?

[misty horizon]

Just curious question, ||how did Sovereign Two knew that we killed The Eye in SE?||

||Do they have access to SE?||

[rotund gust]

wastelands is the mesa next to the mistwoods

the bridge you meet tasim on leads into wastelands

[slim belfry]

||we don't know how but she's implied to gain that info while abroad during the first half of fruma ||

[rugged trench]

ooooh

i was wondering what that was

so ig itll have no direct tie into the 13 part quest?

[rotund gust]

uhh

[split night]

Do you remember the royal report arg thing or at least encounter one

[slim belfry]

it might

[rotund gust]

cheddar how far are you

[split night]

yeah those are spies

[rotund gust]

so we don’t spoil you

[rugged trench]

i just completed blossom of blades pt 1

[rotund gust]

ah

[misty horizon]

yep

[slim belfry]

yeah but there was no silent expanse report

[split night]

Two has been watching you for a long time

[rotund gust]

so you’ve seen ||the two and majin cutscene||

[rugged trench]

leveling up is such as slow process tho since ive done all the secret discoveries n caves besides the ones in aleumia but i cant access the place

Also im pretty sure all the house caves are bugged cuz bosses dont spawn and turn into piles of emeralds

[split night]

they probably die or Two just watch us herself

[rugged trench]

yea

[split night]

xd

[misty horizon]

Royal Reports implies that inquisitors watch you

[rugged trench]

i was also a little confused on that
Could you summarize it for me?

[misty horizon]

so there were inquisitors in SE?

[split night]

no

[gleaming apex]

Wait really?

[rugged trench]

uea

[rotund gust]

i gotchu gimme a min

[split night]

I think they either watch us but didn't write anything down or at least Two did something to see what we doing in SE

she can't just know about it and not have anyway to see us xd

[slim belfry]

not that we know of
they could've went in after SE opened again

[misty horizon]

I mean, from Royal Reports it is still implied that she uses her inquisitors to watch you

[slim belfry]

||two going back out takes place after anyway||

[misty horizon]

she can't just know everything from you

there is a reason why she doesn't know what happened in RoL

[split night]

yeah i know that's why she ask us about RoL

her inquisitors can't enter the realm

[hybrid gazelle]

What we know from the story is that you caught their attention in the arg

But they don’t fully investigate you until recently

[misty horizon]

I am just more wondering regarding A Journey Beyond quest

[hybrid gazelle]

Remember how they mention two came bacj to fruma?

That is her coming back from outside world to investigate your action

Acid I don’t think so

[misty horizon]

it always felt strange to me that they had a mission to SE

just suddenly

[hybrid gazelle]

Thst befause two go there herself

She follow your trail

And find EO door open

[tepid blade]

I does make sense, as she asks you about the realm of light, but not SE, and she is possibly how the queen knows about what happened to Aledar

[misty horizon]

hmm i see, that makes sense

[hybrid gazelle]

I does not take rocket science to connect the dots lol

[slim belfry]

oh right she knows about what happened to him

[hybrid gazelle]

Door open = someone get sacrifice
You alive = the eye is dead

[tepid blade]

It is also possibly that she was following you in SE from the start, watching your every move from the shadows

[hybrid gazelle]

Nope it nkt

Because if it is

She would not go out of fruma

That the thing

From what we get to overture

She literally state that you went under their radar a bit and your meddling around fruma caught their attention to the point they have to retrace your steps

When I get on comp I can show evidences of this

[tepid blade]

I think I forgot this, okay

[hybrid gazelle]

But overall they don’t really keep tab on yoh 100% of the time

[rotund gust]

So
||two leaves after queens recruit to go figure out what our deal is as the player. She learns

1. The player and the light scion (lari) entered the realm of light, only we left and the decay stopped spreading
2. about the journey beyond and further quests, and that we killed the Eye

She doesn't know what happened in the realm of light because:
"Entry to their Claims is not such an easy task if uninvited. You've seen the portal that lies at the end of the Expanse, haven't you? Still active, yet... sealed shut. It seems the Shade did not take well to losing its Sight. An act of caution, blocking your access to its domain. The Light is much the same."
She can't get in the realm of light the same way we currently can't enter the portal of dark.

So in exchange for us telling her what happened in the realm of light, she explains the war of realms and queen.

Essentially. Light and dark are just forces that appeared in the void on day, and began fighting as was their nature. They made forms (orphion and the dern beast) and eventually found our world, the Realm of Physicality (our world), and set claims on it to fight over. Their fight in the realm of Physicality created the realm of war. At some point in the distant past, they are cut off from our world, and in between that time and 0AP, war develops consciousness, the war beast. 0AP the portals reopen, and it "took its chance" leaving the realm of war and taking over fruma, forcing a connection on the world just like light and dark did. The Queen IS the Beast of War, but seperated from war. Moving forward thats sort of a key theme of hers is that she is war, but doesn't want to be

Also bak'al gets namedropped as wars lost scion which is neat
||

[split night]

as far as they concern, we're just a nobody

[rotund gust]

Throws guide voodoo doll in lava:
the wall of text

[tepid blade]

But it does bring the question how she knew that Aledar was sacrifice specifically? Because it could have been one of the other 3, and he could have just died on his way there

[rotund gust]

idk mirror magic i guess

she can see alternate futures, she can probably see the past t

her raid buff is "Omniscient" afterall

[rugged trench]

Ooooh ok
||yeah I heard the whole “queen is war” thing and thought that was odd but that makes it a lot clearer ty||

[hybrid gazelle]

To be fair consider se expendition was a mission originally

She could look up the name

There probably some paper work in Detlas somewhere sbe could investigate

And it likely tell the list of people who meant to be on expendition

[slim belfry]

yeah because didnt aegis organize it too

[hybrid gazelle]

I don’t thjnk she specifically know who was it thst get sacrifice

[misty horizon]

I am wondering what will be the endgame of Wynncraft. Surely we will have fights with Dern Beast at some point in the future. But that means we will leave Oprhion, which is also not a good news. Perhaps a fight with him too?

[hybrid gazelle]

Because she did not mention who in specific

[rotund gust]

||the whole thing about her BEING war, but WANTING to be the queen is pretty important to understand the queens character. Her choice of what she is vs. what she was created to be. It'll be expanded on in the last 2 quests a bit more||

[misty horizon]

World without Realms?

[fossil depot]

yes

penumbra phantasm (vs orphion rematch)

[misty horizon]

or maybe we will have some way to close the portals

[hybrid gazelle]

That why I think Orphion and Dern beast raid boss to be plausible

I don’t think they would wanna milk this storyline for too long

[misty horizon]

having raid of parasite on Orphion and raid on Orphion is funny ngl

[hybrid gazelle]

And having double raid boss at once would be something fresh and fitting for finale of the story

[fossil depot]

its been the main storyline for almost a decade

[hybrid gazelle]

Yeah lol

It been years

[tepid blade]

We could, but it will likely only delay the apocalypse, like what has happened before, so we might want to make the end permeant

[hybrid gazelle]

I don’t thjnk they wanna milk jt

And fightinf 2 realm beasts at the same sound like fitting end for a finale

[fossil depot]

it isn't milking to give it a proper long treatment lol

[hybrid gazelle]

Okay but then

You come to a problem

Where okay yoh beat Orphion

Then what about Dern beast???

[fossil depot]

i think we are going to beat saphanis and then have an orphion rematch for the finale

[hybrid gazelle]

Would not it recover and you have to fight it again

[slim belfry]

once again

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1399831978072739901/1491569990594334721/SPOILER_image0.jpg?ex=69e7fe4d&is=69e6accd&hm=6b235bf0569d6b97bfb18b62a277f2d9f7f53061495c6f46e57d474e63fdf77e&

[hybrid gazelle]

Yeah lol

[tepid blade]

To be fair, I don't think they had the whole story line thought out a decade ago

[hybrid gazelle]

Also we see wynncraft going very ambitious with its story

[zenith venture]

Wasn't our objective in NoL to just get the parasite out?

[hybrid gazelle]

Saphanis and Orphion duo boss fight is plausible

[hybrid gazelle]

Yes

[zenith venture]

so wouldn't Orphie have just gone easy on us?

[fossil depot]

ye

we didnt fight orphion properly

[hybrid gazelle]

No

[rotund gust]

tbh i don't know if orphion and ||saphanis|| raid boss would be good.

Unless they give us a canon party to fight them with like with WTP, it feels like cheap for it not to just be the players vs. those 2. Plus unlike the sovereigns who filled the boss roles leading up to the raid i worry about how a quest would go. Maybe the quest has us fight one of them and then bak'al swoops in and steals their power becoming the real raid boss lmfao

[dim plover]

I mean, can the player currently even beat 1 Realm Beast

[hybrid gazelle]

Why would Orphion go easy on us

[tepid blade]

I personally think that the Dern expansion won't be the last expansion, maybe one or two more afterward

[dim plover]

Canonically we didn't even scratch Orphion, and all the attacks during his phase of the battle was collateral damage rather than him targeting us

[hybrid gazelle]

It likely will be canon party

[zenith venture]

I mean unless the parasite was purposefully hurting Orphie to kick his reflexes against us...

[hybrid gazelle]

I don’t see what else

[fossil depot]

thats why i think saphanis will be the "final" boss

we're going to beat it and then have to fight orphion again, though this time for real and empowered

[slim belfry]

maybe a whole army of the best against the beasts

[zenith venture]

sorry I don't follow this chat but I'm curious who's saphanis?

[rotund gust]

||Anathema|| we fight in a party of 4, and shes severely weakend by creating at least 14 scions (all the sovereigns + bak'al) and also having her shell destroyed. Also consider she is just innately weaker than the other 2

[fossil depot]

my sister

[slim belfry]

uhhhh

[fossil depot]

nothing of interest for the story

[slim belfry]

you'll find out

[tepid blade]

Okay, unironically I think having some kind of "Ascended Bak'al" (Bak'al ascending to some kind of super god) for a final boss fight would be cool

[fossil depot]

just keep playing

[rotund gust]

https://tenor.com/view/rainn-wilson-shh-secret-prank-gif-17131726

[zenith venture]

wait bak'al is that related to fruma queen?

[fossil depot]

||bak'al is too much of a fraud||

[rotund gust]

shhh

you'll find out

[slim belfry]

what fruma quests have you played

[zenith venture]

I watched olinus' streams

[rotund gust]

well actually wait have you done blossom of blades 1 yet? he's namedropped in it

[tepid blade]

This why I think that if we do meet Saphanis in the Dern expansion, it won't be a fight, it will be a beat down

[gleaming apex]

Lol

[rotund gust]

"Wars Lost Scion"

[zenith venture]

but haven't found the time to play it in person :P

[misty horizon]

who would win? Incarnation of Dark itself or boy with spear and Nemract Whiskey?

[zenith venture]

boi, power of friendship or determination ig lol

[dim plover]

The boy if he attacked in the day

[fossil depot]

||you have to agree, having an epilogue questline and fighting orphion properly in the end would be fun as hell. Not talking about 12 quests after defeating spahanis but something like 2-3||

[gleaming apex]

The beasts when the player pulls up with "private build not sharing"

[formal bridge]

I mean someone has been fighting all the fruma bosses in the complete nude with nothing but a bow and some dreams

so canonically the player could probably do it in a loincloth

just needs the right weapon

[zenith venture]

is there something in the lore that would hint at us having to fight orphie canonically a 2nd time aside from a training bout?

[dim plover]

I'm just trying to figure out how we would realistically go toe-to-toe with a literal god of the Wynncraft universe without gaining some deus ex machina godly power ourselves

[fossil depot]

||two's dialogue in ensemble of hope||

[zenith venture]

oh oops

[formal bridge]

everyone is on the side of orphie being a bad guy because the new fruma quests paint him in a much worse light

I still see him as a neutral actor

[rotund gust]

now i need to count gimme a second

1 bak'al
2 two
3 oru
4 gitephe
5 caetal
6 amastli
7 xima
8 gikyo
9 rieke
10 selium
11 majin
12 soosu
13 zhiraok
14 tasim

[dim plover]

Two does say something along the lines of "killing one is not enough, killing both is impossible" though

[tepid blade]

Near impossible, so possible, but unlikely

[formal bridge]

so maybe an epilogue with us going "hey we beat up your twin, can you leave now?" and him going "yeah sure that's all I wanted anyway"

[misty horizon]

What if you will somehow ragebait both beasts to fight with each other until they will reach a weakened state just to fight both of them?

[dim plover]

The thing is they already are fighting each other

Like, currently

[misty horizon]

But like, direct confrontation between beasts

[dim plover]

If they had better ways to directly attack each other they would have done so already

[misty horizon]

Ye, that's what I am implying by ragebait

[split night]

what make you think they won't attack each other on sight

[mystic fulcrum]

And whole universe collapse when both light and dark beast dies

[misty horizon]

There is a reason why Dern Beast send Parasite to Orphion in first place

[tepid blade]

no?

[misty horizon]

he doesn't have access to fight with him right now

[dim plover]

The thing is if the Realm Beasts could kill each other directly then it would have already happened

[misty horizon]

^

[dim plover]

Do we know this will happen

[fossil depot]

the physical plane does not need light and dark

[dim plover]

Does the Plane of Influence collapsing also destroy the Physical Plane

[fossil depot]

they're, in a way, intruders

[split night]

the fuck?
that's just planning
why WOULDN'T they fight when they are face to face?

[rotund gust]

trust selium is still alive. They mention him way too much and are being way too cagey about confirming his death for him to actually be dead

[unique jungle]

nono you dont get it they were just politely waiting until the player could get here and watch

[tepid blade]

no, because they aren't fundamental forces in the universe, not even natural to our reality

[dim plover]

What does face to face even mean for them here

Remember, the Realm Beasts are literally the realms themselves
Like, Orphion is light itself, DB is dark itself

[unique jungle]

they were able to put aside their differences in the name of a 4th wall break and badly done plot hole

[misty horizon]

Dern Beast sent parasite to weaken Orphion

Orphion is weakened for 1000 years

Why didn't Dern Beast attack Orphion during this time?

[formal bridge]

maybe selium is related to secret earth boss in the future

[dim plover]

They are already fighting each other directly

[rotund gust]

the huh

[zenith venture]

uhhhhh lari?

[formal bridge]

considering we have changelings related to it secretly, selium's blessing was related to earth apparently, the orcs worship the earth

it's just a random theory

[fossil depot]

1000?

[zenith venture]

yeah parasite arrived 0bp alongside everything else during that time

[fossil depot]

it havent been that long bro

[unique jungle]

Orphion uses Lari!
It's super effective!
Orphion loses 12 hp

[tepid blade]

He has only been infected for like 200 years maximum

[fossil depot]

yeah the infection is recent

[zenith venture]

it's just that lari knows where the parasite emerged so she could warn senior caritat

[split night]

It's more what Bak'al says, why attack something that has already been fallen?
there is no reason to attack your puppet

[rotund gust]

no no please explain. Since a while back i made a theory that Nifilis is probably still alive in the wastelands and thats frumas old god of earth and fire. And that would fit if there is some earth boss

[misty horizon]

oh ye my mistake

[fossil depot]

orphion wasnt its puppet tho

[misty horizon]

it's 200 years maximum yeah

[formal bridge]

Like I said it's just that the earth is clearly hinted to be of importance to the changelings and seliium being a random open ended thing

so metatextually

[rotund gust]

ah

[formal bridge]

it would make sense for a twist boss to be connected to the last realm we know of: our own

[dim plover]

What if Trashie's Queen AU is real and that post-Fruma quests will have us try to revive Anathema (in some tangible form or otherwise) to keep the two Realm Beasts at bay again under threat of world destruction

[rotund gust]

idk i think bro may have gotten eaten by a big lava salamander

[tepid blade]

it kind of was, it was being controlled by the Parasite, which was controlled by Saphanis

[split night]

I want more Anathema, I miss her

[misty horizon]

If you think about it, that does make sense.

If Dern beast will attack Orphion, then ||Anathema will attack Dern Beast in his weakened state||

that's why he sent parasite to weaken, and didn't fight himself

[dim plover]

Trashie has a pretty cool comic sequence of the AU I described
I really liked it and want to see more of the comic

[split night]

The familly are fighting again...

[zenith venture]

ye, for such a major character it's kinda off seeing her just defeated after the storyline even if it is to be continued

[rotund gust]

also, it doesn't seem like light and dark REALLY fight eachother directly all that much. More just war over the realm of physicality The parasite being the exception

[split night]

I want to see that, i think i should make a little comic of my things too xd

[tepid blade]

No, because Anathema hates their war, the reason they are on the physical plane is to stop them from spreading, she is keeping them at by threatening to destroy the physical plane if they don't stop

[misty horizon]

my point is they had three-way tie ||until recent events||

||That's why in post-raid convo, Anathema says: …when I fade… they will know… Orphion… Saphanis… they will not… wait long……
||

[split night]

I find it funny that knowing Anathema, she'd never destroy the plane

[rotund gust]

trust guys Nifilis is alive and caused seliums disappearance. The notes say he goes to talk to the earth itself with the source of changelings in the wasteland, and what else but a god of earth who according to the creation myth MADE the wastelands

[tepid blade]

I mean, if things got bad enough I believe she would, only if it means depriving them of their ultimate goal

[split night]

Also, it seems like Anathema hold the record for having the most Scions out of all the beast

[rotund gust]

yeah, light has 1 scion

and dark

we dunno

[split night]

A world destroyed seems a lot better than whatever these two have in mind

[tepid blade]

Unknown, at least one, Bak'al

[rotund gust]

or atleast one LIVING scion

[formal bridge]

dark has 1 max with Bak'al, and even that is very sketchy

[fossil depot]

do we even know if orphion and saphanis had scions besides lari and bak'al

[split night]

for now, Bak'al

[tepid blade]

true

[rotund gust]

Bak'al might not be empowered by dark though

[formal bridge]

We don't know if he's a proper scion for sure, yeah

[rotund gust]

we don't know if he has a blessing from dark

[formal bridge]

I could see Dern beast keeping it from him just to mess with the guy and out of mistrust

[rotund gust]

like he could JUST be a war scion who is working for darkness

[formal bridge]

I mentioned it earlier that bak'al does not have a trustworthy record lmao

[dim plover]

#your_work message

[formal bridge]

he was revived from near death and given a ton of power and still ditched the queen

[split night]

opportunistic bastard

[rotund gust]

the only canidates in the story for a dark scion are like
Bak'al - maybe
Bob - he disappeared into darkness so its possible
Lari - she disappeared into the realm of darkness so maybe she gets brainwashed

and even then none of them really need the power boost so its dubious at best that any of them WOULD be dark scions

[tepid blade]

I personally believe that Bak'al has a dark blessing, as it doesn't feel like he would join the dark if he didn't get one unless he had some alterative motivation to do so (like stealing the powers of the dark for himself) as he is motivated by power first

[rotund gust]

yeah my thought his bak'al joins darkness after losing to bob so he can get a powerboost and not lose again, for lack of a different catalyst to make him leave the queen

[split night]

Do we count ourselve as a Light's Scion?
since there are at least 3-4 archetype that is basically blessed by Orphion like boltslinger and stuff
i know it's not canon but it's kinda interesting

[rotund gust]

no

[tepid blade]

no, we didn't get a blessing

[rotund gust]

scion is assumedly being infused power by a beast themselves

those archetypes just use light and corruption magic

[formal bridge]

orphion basically jsut gave us the keys to his house and that's it

cheap prick

[rotund gust]

yeah

[fossil depot]

lmao

[tepid blade]

It could be a spark, like how the Fallen has a spark from Anathema, not a blessing, but just a tiny fraction of their power

[rotund gust]

The player COULD also be a dark scion

thats an option

[fossil depot]

"alright bro, you got me the dewormer, feel free to come back anytime to get some chips"

[rotund gust]

no real evidence for it since the weird string inside us in apotheosis isn't described as dark

but like

its no more unlikely then bob or lari

[tepid blade]

Lari feels like a stretch, at least if willingly, but I don't think they will do a "save friend from evil side" plot again, we had Tasim for that

[rotund gust]

i mean, tasim joined the queen willingly though

[fossil depot]

can we kill lari in dern pls

[rotund gust]

still i see what you mean

[split night]

that is still save a friend from the evil side

[rotund gust]

trust we're gonna revive all 5 of Frumas old gods, then use them to beat the shit out of orphion and saphanis

[tepid blade]

True, but he did because he believed that she had power to change things, unlike us

[tepid blade]

Very unlikely, like almost impossible

[fossil depot]

did those gods actually exist, werent them just cult figures

[rotund gust]

presumably

we see evidence of some of their continued existances

the spectral fox in the fruma lootrun

[tepid blade]

Could have existed, but less gods more like nature spirits or powerful animals, at least thats my guess

[misty horizon]

5 gods?

what others 4 are?

[rotund gust]

the queen mentioning "destroying their gods" and the architect shrine saying "tolos is hunted, nifilis grows volitile"

[rotund gust]

gimme a sec

ta da

its from the fruma creation myth

i think each of the 5 gods is mentioned at least once outside of it though, with tolos being mentioned the most

Sasshahuth has a storybook in the aldwell library where it kidnaps and presumably eats a child

[formal bridge]

I still see water as auburn since it was going to be pretty flooded back in time pre dam

[misty horizon]

thanks

[formal bridge]

and the highlands are high up so they have lightning and stuff

[misty horizon]

dam didn't exist pre-queen tho, no?

from Auburn Forest description:
"A shortage of water has caused this forest to exist in an eternal autumn..."

[formal bridge]

exactly

These are pre queen gods

[rotund gust]

almost everything we have on the gods is in the Fruman language. I'd skim over this if you wanna look at them yourself https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bvjamsqt8nJMu69KDAwyVb3r44UX1pbXZvBveRm5LOM/edit?tab=t.8zb5ln9fupi6

apart from sasha's storybook

[misty horizon]

I also wonder what size of wastelands it will be

because from area that we can already see

it seems like our map won't be rectangular

[rotund gust]

but yeah the way they're spoken about in the architect shrine, and the ghostly fox enemy kinda leans toward them being real creatures (although them being gods is probably an exaggration)

[misty horizon]

there will be something more at south

[rotund gust]

the queen says in apothesosis she "destroyed their gods" but given that the fox is still around the others might also be. Im betting nifilis is gonna be alive in the wastelands, it feels like theres too many coincidences for them not to atleast be important to the hallowground story

[formal bridge]

I assume it's just the full square and it'll be relatively thin and wide

[misty horizon]

if you will check current wasteland region rn, it seems like it's cut-off on south

[hybrid gazelle]

tbh I think destorying as in

[misty horizon]

if it was full rectangular, we would have had mountains here

[hybrid gazelle]

delete any traceo f their existence

[rotund gust]

yeah

[hybrid gazelle]

to the common people

[rotund gust]

that seems more accurate

[hybrid gazelle]

but I think they still around in ruins

[rotund gust]

yeah theres sunken monument which still has the shrine to Nasaheksh in it

but the masks of the canopy also each line up with a god too, so at least their visages still remain

but we have no clue how gods work in wynncrafts world. We know orphion pretends to be one for the elves, but how like god-gods work we dunno

maybe they work on the "they exist if people believe in them" line of thinking, maybe their just powerful creatures that people worshipped

either way i hope it gets expanded on with wastelands and the future mythic shrines

[tepid blade]

I think the old Fruman gods are remembered in some ways, but not as gods, more as beasts of legends pasts or cultural artifacts, like the story book in Aldwell Library and the traditional mistwood masks

kind of how like gods like Thor where at one point seriously worshipped, but have become more of a culture symbol than a god

[hybrid gazelle]

I mean to be fair

"the fox will run free" is likely some leftover phase form the old time

where the old gods were worship

and I think Nasin still have winged serpent as their banner

[rotund gust]

yeah, but also at minimum Atlashas still exists (or atleast holds influence) because of the Ghostly Fox Lootrun enemy which says "PRESH AH ATLAHAZ" (not translated yet)

[hybrid gazelle]

Mistwood have the owl clan

which likely referecce to the old owl god

I think the clans in mistwood hold some reference to the old gods

[rotund gust]

yeah

[hybrid gazelle]

as there are fox, stag, and owl

[tepid blade]

Yeah, like how Thursday is believed to have come from "Thors-day" because of the norse invasion of England

[hybrid gazelle]

I think the one that got completely erase from history is the salamander

I THINK

[rotund gust]

kinda weird that they didn't worship the serpent or salamander though. I figured that given how there are other clans in the mistwoods outside of the 3 clans of the canopy we'd see them have something for the other gods

[hybrid gazelle]

we literally never see them anywhere

[tepid blade]

its all cultural memories, but little actual worship

[hybrid gazelle]

I think the highland just so influenced by her majesty

that literally all they can think about is her

which lead to serpent being entirely forgotten

[tepid blade]

At least for now (maybe in the Wastelands please devs)

[hybrid gazelle]

comparing to Auburn Forest where the crown has the last influence

therefore they manage to keep their old culture

[rotund gust]

yeah i think the only mention we get of them is "Nifilis grows volatile" in the architect shrine. Its also in the valediction necklace itemlore but not translated yet

All of the gods are mentioned in buried records book 2, but not translated yet

[signal bough]

pretty sure they would've come with the anglo-saxon invasions cause the etymologies are more consistent with a continental germanic origin

[rotund gust]

but Nifilis is also associated with the wastelands

so them getting the least mentioning makes sense

[tepid blade]

True, I know that both cultures worshiped similar gods with similar names, so it could have came from either

[rotund gust]

but idk, Nifilis grows volatile, the changelings are volatile until properly trained, its an earth god and the changelings come from the earth. Both changelings and nifilis are associated with the wastelands. Selium disappears after going to talk to the earth itself

i think

that nifilis will atleast have some importance

[misty horizon]

on a sidenote, I only rn realized that 5 runes indicate 5 different elements

prolly a common knowledge

[hybrid gazelle]

I feel like

changeling has something to do with cosmic happening in the wasteland

I feel it

[rotund gust]

theres A LOT of 5's going on in wynn

[hybrid gazelle]

cause projecth ollow ground imply that they need Sohso to study these things

[rotund gust]

Sohso is brought in explicitly because changeling madness is similar to meteor madness

[misty horizon]

but runes having relations with elements makes sense tbh

[rotund gust]

so he's an expert on it

[signal bough]

5 major cities...

[rotund gust]

but yeah theres probably some connection

[hasty beacon]

Lotta 5 letter names too

But thats probably a coincidence

[hybrid gazelle]

actually now that we know there 5 gods behind element

I think I gotta scrap my demons lore 😭

[formal bridge]

r i p demon lore

[rotund gust]

ehhhh

i mean

[tepid blade]

The old Frumans must have liked the number 5, it is a thing in real cultures where certain numbers have cultural and/or religious significance

[hybrid gazelle]

I somehow predict the fucking 5 gods with demons lore I made

[rotund gust]

nifilis is fire and earth

and iirc one of the gods isn't given an elemental association

atleast not in the creation myth

[misty horizon]

the color of runes that you get are in specific order
https://wynncraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Runes

Water - Az
Fire - Nii
Uth - Air
Tol - Earth
Ek - Thunder

but maybe i am just going insane

[tepid blade]

Your theory does have sound basis, I have noticed the same pattern as well

[rotund gust]

yeah nifilis is fire earth
atlashas is water
Tolos just doesn't have one afawk, its described as nature and fertility
Sasha and Nasahkek both have some overlap, sasha is mist which could be air, but nasahkek is storms which could be air and thunder, maybe even water for rain

there isn't clean elemental associations for the 5 old gods. but we also have like 1 source that is mostly translated to draw from, so the other sources might expand on it

[fossil depot]

is anything mentioned about the pre knowledge age?

[hybrid gazelle]

I think they just transition into one another

it like how chain work

they connect to one and another as you progress through the order

[misty horizon]

hold on

Nifilis - Nii - Fire
Atlashaz - Az - Water
Sasshahuth - Uth - Air
Tolos - Tol - Earth
Nasaheksh - Ek - Thunder

that's not a coincidence

[hybrid gazelle]

So Sasha and Nashakek is connected because the overlap in mist and storm

maybe that why runes hae to be chain in specfic way

[zinc quarry]

damn wheres all this stuff about the gods coming from did the rosetta stones or wtv finally get translated

[hybrid gazelle]

cause each elements have to be transition to another

[rotund gust]

that would make the most sense, but nifilis is "burning magma and crashing earth"

[misty horizon]

even god names are related to rune names

[rotund gust]

like is seems like nifilis is MORE associated with fire, but theres definitly and earth element to it

[misty horizon]

that's def not a coincidence

[tepid blade]

yep

[rotund gust]

wait i didn't even think about that

your

defo right then

[signal bough]

I believe the fruman text was sufficiently translated

[rotund gust]

the creation myth doesn't cleanly associate them but i think it lines them up enough plus their names sharing your defo right

[tepid blade]

Do we know what the Fruman language's words for the 5 elements

if not, they could be the names of the runes

[zinc quarry]

cool

[rotund gust]

God - Rune - Element - Animal - Location
Nifilis - Nii - Fire - Salamander - Wastelands
Atlashaz - Az - Water - Fox - Auburn Forest
Sasshahuth - Uth - Air - Owl - Mistwoods
Tolos - Tol - Earth - Deer - Roughworks/Agriculture District
Nasaheksh - Ek - Thunder - Serpent - Highlands

just to expand it a bit more

[rotund gust]

yeah we know theres more one some of them that isn't translated but we have the basics

[misty horizon]

that brings the question, is there a rune for 6th element?

darkness

[rotund gust]

no

good lord no

darkness element needs to DIE

[misty horizon]

huh

[tepid blade]

Darkness is not an element, that is no longer canon, confirmed by someone on the dev team

[misty horizon]

ah i see

[rotund gust]

darkness being an element is retconned, just kinda waiting on the inevitable remakes of AJB

theres only the 5

[misty horizon]

wynncraft lore is so convoluted atp lol

we have like at least 4 different lores that inconsistent with each other

[tepid blade]

Welcome to a game that is like 15 to 16 years old

[rotund gust]

yes but also, fruma seems to be making an effort to give us the information we need IN GAME which is nice. as opposed to just telling us crap on the discord

[slim belfry]

was never meant to be canon

[tepid blade]

Then why did they have it in game in the first place???

[rotund gust]

also if dark is the 6th element then it turning into light implies light is the 7th element and honestly it just doesn't make sense now that we know light and dark are both foreign forces to the world

[slim belfry]

idk lol it conflicts with a lot of things which was why I ignored it the first time

[paper wyvern]

It was supposed to be cannon for about an update before they realized it was stupid

It made sense in the time between silent expanse and gavel reborn

[misty horizon]

I am rereading AJB rn, and I think you can easily retcon this by saying that "Dren thought there is a sixth element - Darkness"

[hybrid gazelle]

no never meant to to

CT said it before it was jsut miscommunication

[misty horizon]

so it's like not an objective fact, but rather a subjective

[paper wyvern]

Oh

[rotund gust]

imagine we meet tolos and its a mechanical deer to reflect how the agriculture distrct changed into the roughworks

[rotund gust]

dren is just stupid

[misty horizon]

ye, just state that it was his assumption

and there is no sixth element

[rotund gust]

random ah blacksmith exposits how the world works and thousands are surprised that he isn't correct

also if fruma gods were like real creatures and at bare minimum associated with the Weave (since the runes are tied to the weave and the gods are atleast associated with those). Do wynn and gavel also have gods?

or was fruma just

special

i mean garaheth and the colossi were TREATED as gods in gavel

but like, same thing as the fruma gods? or just worshiped as such

[signal bough]

I presume that they can work similar to elements but they def arent

[tepid blade]

Wynn probably does have their own gods but we just never hear about them

[slim belfry]

ever heard of bovemism?

[rotund gust]

also the queen killed/destoryed the fruma gods. The hell would've happened to the Wynn ones, unless the olm killed their own gods or orphion/saph killed them after the portals opened the first time around

[tepid blade]

I forgot about it because it feels like it exists as a joke half the time

[slim belfry]

yeah I don't think it's meant to be taken seriously

[signal bough]

there's so many churches

all in wynn or wynnic locations

[tepid blade]

Also, we know that the dark was worshiped by a cult in Gavel, at least at some point

[signal bough]

does anyone have a full list of bovemist places of worship

[slim belfry]

also the house of talor

what's up with that

[rotund gust]

Salted - ??? - Milk - Cow - Wynn

[tepid blade]

there is also those random element cult caves we can find around

[rotund gust]

the milk element

hold on are then ANY old mentions of other runes

like retconned ones

that could be salted milk rune

[slim belfry]

cowfusion relevance

[rotund gust]

truee

[signal bough]

all this bovemism and wynn doesn't even have a restriction on beef consumption smh

[misty horizon]

light element

[rotund gust]

NO

[misty horizon]

it's all coming together

random ass blacksmith was right all along

[tepid blade]

I'm trying to remember how many like random cults that exists for like a single cave with no relevance, similar to the dark cultists you find in Time Valley, do those guys even worship Saphanis or are they called the Dark Cultists because they are evil

[tepid blade]

You brought this upon yourself

[rotund gust]

also, changelings only appear after the queen takes power, maybe changelings come from nifilis' decomposing corpse or something like that. The black goop is the decaying flesh

idk if nifilis is fire that doesn't really check out then

[paper wyvern]

Like half the ocean caves are cults

[signal bough]

hey they're a better example

they have 3 caves and patrols

[tepid blade]

Better example of what?

[signal bough]

'random cult existing for a single cave with no relevance'

they're all throughout time valley

[paper wyvern]

What about cinfras

[rotund gust]

also entirely possible that the old gods of fruma are related to the colossi in the sense of like "defenders of their land". Since fruma doesn't have any light or dark claims in it, maybe thats what their function was

[tepid blade]

I think they should make the dark cultist enemies actually worship Saphanis or rename them, because it makes no sense other wise in the current lore

[signal bough]

most populous city in Gavel, there's enough worshippers(especially since it seems to have some attraction) to comprise a congregation

[paper wyvern]

Could be related to garroth and eye of the storm guy who is technically still canon

[rotund gust]

wait their still canon?

[tepid blade]

I know there is a place in Gavel where you can find Bovemism missionaries or something like that

[rotund gust]

also garoth like timelost sanctum garoth?

lmfao imagine wynn had gods and the olm accidentally killed them with the time valley cataclysm

whoopsie

[tepid blade]

Would not surprise me, the Olm fucked up a lot after they left the SE

[paper wyvern]

Oops got the name wrong

[rotund gust]

you mean garaheth?

the one dogun fire god whose just a big demon

[paper wyvern]

Ueah

[rotund gust]

idk he doesn't really seem all that important. Probably just like a normal creature that ended up being worshiped AS a god.

[tepid blade]

okay, are they an actual demon, or is there like a false demon from the physical realm, and real demons from the plane of war?

[rotund gust]

devils are from the realm of war

demons

ehhh

[signal bough]

guess hell is real

[rotund gust]

demons are part of old wynns fun worldbuilding of "literally every villain has their own pocket dimension"

like slykaars evil pocket dimension

[signal bough]

well we know there's a functional and thriving afterlife

[paper wyvern]

Yes but only as an offhand mention and only in the same league as garaheth

[rotund gust]

ah

[dim plover]

What does actual demon mean in this case

[rotund gust]

we have 0 clue asaik. I know trashie was doing something with demons but idk how based in real lore that was and how much it was just fanfiction

[tepid blade]

Just me misremembering that the ones from the plane of war are called devils, not demons

[rotund gust]

idk how much real lore we actually have on them that wasn't retconned out of existance with eye of the storm

[hybrid gazelle]

there literally 0 fucking lore about demons

[signal bough]

there's different realities, there's space aliens. I'm sure there's a space for non corruption cloven hoofed, goat horned, fiery demons

[hybrid gazelle]

so 90% of it is fanfic

acutally

95%

[rotund gust]

yeah thats what i figured

[hybrid gazelle]

5% is just garaheth and narageth and that it

[paper wyvern]

Festival of the spirits dialogue (this is also the entirety of demon lore)
Arwes: Demonologists are not sure of their origin, but there are two demons worshipped by the Doguns in the Molten Heights, which has lead to Dwarves calling them "Demons" historically, though this is untrue.
Arwes: One of the demons worshipped is Garaheth, who some Doguns believe is their creator. As for the other...
Arwes: His name is on the tip of my tongue... Something...that...starts with an N? N...Na... Oh, it doesn't matter.

[rotund gust]

garaheth is the only signficant one still in game apart from the one off mention of that fucker from eye of the storm i guess

[dim plover]

Hope I don't sound like an ass correcting you but Realm of War*

Very important distinction since the realm of war is part of a Plane

[tepid blade]

But yeah demons feel like they are physical beings related to the element of fire, which would make Garaheth similar to the Fruman gods

[rotund gust]

that would check out

garaheth is probably just a big fire elemental

or whatever wynns equivalent to elementals as a concept is

[hybrid gazelle]

there als deomon in rol 3

dullahan can summon them

they exist

[rotund gust]

is the warden of wisdom or whatever their name is a demon?

[hybrid gazelle]

no

I dont know

warden is fleshy thing

[rotund gust]

oh those

[lone bone]

Hey I found a stele with what seem to be a way to translate fruma alphabet if we didn't find that yet

[tepid blade]

Dullahan's demons are more like spirits than the other form of demons

[signal bough]

location?

[hybrid gazelle]

"Demons of the Prison Guard, I compel you to execute this interloper. Trap their soul for my perusal later."

[rotund gust]

ah

[hybrid gazelle]

these things

[lone bone]

here you go throw the cave with the icicles

[signal bough]

oh, Rosetta 1

[lone bone]

oh it was found already?

[signal bough]

yeah

one of three

[rotund gust]

people are trying to translate since its a conlang, not just a 1-1 with english like high gavellion and ancient wynnic

[lone bone]

oh ok

Anyone managed to translate the texts in the secret discovery close to it?

[lone bone]

ty

[rotund gust]

i know its pinned in the fruma language thread but it should probably be pinned here to, since it gets referenced a lot

[lone bone]

Honestly I'm not looking into the lore ppl already found till I finish my own blind playthrough of Fruma but the lore seem insane

[rotund gust]

fair

[lone bone]

is there a full fruma lore video someone made yet or nah? wanna watch it after I finish Fruma

[light zealot]

The Missing Piece.

Wow.

That was a really good quest.

The cinematic camera functions and increased writing quality of modern Wynncraft is really very cool.

Also, that is so sad. Adds so much to ||Syndra's character. ||

||She was an agent of the Crown who defected, right?||

||And when the Inquisitors were hunting her Elise got caught in the crossfire...||

||That's absolutely brutal.||

||I agree with Elise, I hope that Syndra and the Leaves and I burn the Queen's reign to the ground. ||

That's a hell of a way to make you actually care about these people, holy frig.

[fossil depot]

can someone list me the main wynncraft song motifs?

[hybrid gazelle]

HOLY SHIT

AJB FINALLY UPDATED ON THE WIKI

[rotund gust]

oh?

[hybrid gazelle]

||Her not arrest Elise is what get her punished for disloyalty||

||she is not defected YET because she just stripped off her rank and simply send into Auburn Forest and given work to act as infilitrator by Zhiraok||

[formal bridge]

||to be more specific, she was led to arrest elise based on her supposedly being a traitor. This was actually a test designed to see if she WOULD arrest someone she cared for. Her refusal meant the queen couldn't trust her and she got the boot||

[rotund gust]

makes you wonder what zhiraok had to do to prove himself worth of the position instead

[hybrid gazelle]

I dont think he did

[formal bridge]

I have to wonder if all soverigns get tested or just ones the queen is iffy on

[hybrid gazelle]

I think got choosen because there no other acndidate

I THINK

i dont think so

I think it depend the circumstance

Soosu prove herself worthy to be a soverign to ensure fruma advancement

so she got taken in with no question

Zhiraok likely just got pick because he is only one left

I think if her majesty has a choice

she would rather not have another nasin

[formal bridge]

and yet he's also the most competent amongst them

[hybrid gazelle]

well yeah

cause he actually do his job

||Gikyo do their job too but like yeah||

[formal bridge]

the queen wondering why the child, narcissist, and crazy man don't do their jobs as well as the humble autistic boio

[hybrid gazelle]

welel

soosu is young adult

so

not retally a child

[split night]

This reminds me of Orphion test and shit
do realm beasts do this to all of their scion

[formal bridge]

Mostly memeing so yeah obv soosu is more competent by now

I assume that the tests most people get are during the blessing process itself

like they get some dream sequence alongside the physical burden

We just didn't get jack from orphion cause he's stingy

[rotund gust]

also wait trashie, i want your opinion on a theory i put in this channel earlier today about house nasin

[hybrid gazelle]

what is the theory

[rotund gust]

^

Tldr, House Nasin has innate air magic, which is part of the reason why they are noblity, and why gale has air magic and zhiraok might have air magic

[hybrid gazelle]

honestly I think Zhiraok being wind themed is to have connection with Gale

I dont think he ever mention to be have magic originally

his conversation with ||Tasim|| imply he is not cursed

until he given a blessing

[rotund gust]

his convo in echos?

[hybrid gazelle]

yes

||he said that Tasim reocvery might be better than his due to his status as having high magical innate to begin with||

but yeah as far as we know Zhiraok blessing is time magic

rather than air magic

[formal bridge]

I assume it's a taught thing rather than anything innate

[hybrid gazelle]

I think the air theming around him is just to draw his connection to Gale

[formal bridge]

like we have the three caves of noble castles we storm who have their own specialities

nasin's is wind normally

[rotund gust]

reading it now. He doesn’t say that, tasim says that he’s getting the hang of it since it’s similar to what he could already do

but also the blades in zhiraoks fight just kinda don't match the time magic

his time magic assumedly just lets him speed himself up

the player being frozen in mid air just doesn't really match and the blades being suspended just don't match the time theme

unless he also has air magic

also yeah, the 3 other noble houses all have their head using magic

and only 1 or the 3 seems to be military

[fossil depot]

||i still struggle to understand what gale exactly did to make the nasins be soo hated||

[rotund gust]

the only person this wouldn't account for is majin, since we have no hints at an innate magic for him

[rotund gust]

left

i guess

but im pretty sure gale isn't the only one who messed up

[fossil depot]

left

[rotund gust]

Right, Sovereign Rieke Nasin also did something

[fossil depot]

why the fuck leaving be enough for the Queen to hate their whole dynasty

[rotund gust]

which disgraced the house

Gale just didn't help at all

[fossil depot]

something what she did

[rotund gust]

assumedly gale was the houses chance at redemption and she left

since rieke messed everything up for them already

[formal bridge]

maybe rieke tried to flirt with the queen and she was not amused /s

I assume rieke was another rebel who joined some old rebellion against the queen

[hybrid gazelle]

It weird because I dont think there ever mention of Zhiraok being ucrsed

[fossil depot]

what did rieke do tho

[drifting aurora]

where are you pulling this from

[hybrid gazelle]

I feel like he would mention that

[rotund gust]

wiki

[drifting aurora]

ok. elaborate?

where on wiki

[rotund gust]

on zhiraoks page

[drifting aurora]

does the wiki have a source

[hybrid gazelle]

I

[formal bridge]

I remember it somewhere in the nasin secret discoevry I think?

[hybrid gazelle]

I dont htink wiki is good to use as a source LOL

[formal bridge]

i haven't done it in a qhile and the text isn't collected

I just remember gale being pressured into ti cause rieke mesesd up

[rotund gust]

no it doesn't, and given that your questioning it im gonna assume its wrong

[formal bridge]

does anyone have the diary entries for gale

[slim belfry]

someone needs to rewrite this

someone that did the SD

[hybrid gazelle]

the reason Nasin house likely get shamed is due to what happen to Gale

we see this from his diary

[rotund gust]

and house divided hasn't been transcribed onto the wiki yet

[hybrid gazelle]

well I read it

and I can certainly say that Gale just have a bad home life and with Majin stalking her

so she just gone off and left Fruma

[rotund gust]

no i mean the 5 books you need to put in order. Since one of them mentions rieke though right?

[hybrid gazelle]

yeah

but they did not said what she did

it more of what Gale did

[rotund gust]

ah

[hybrid gazelle]

than Rieke specifically

Gale's action is likely what cause Nasin house to fucked up

consider we see this in Zhiraok diary

where he imply to blame Gale for circumstance that he force into due to her action

[drifting aurora]

SOVEREIGNS GITEPHE AND RIEKE IN 205KA-75NA
The illustrious Sovereign Gitephe finally retired after his storied career in the two hundred fifth year of the Knowledge Age.
His mantle was passed down to Sovereign Rieke, a highly successful Sovereign in her own right, who herself retired in the seventy-fifth year of the New Age.

shrug

[rotund gust]

ok so the wiki just assumed it was rieke without a source

[hybrid gazelle]

yes

[drifting aurora]

i also forgot the nasin library said this about xima lol

SOVEREIGN GITEPHE IN 5KA
Sovereign Gitephe of House Nasin was the first Sovereign appointed to the seat of the Highlands in the fifth year of the Knowledge Age, becoming the Marshal of the Provincial Guard and bringing further glory to our House.
In contrast, the ignoble House Thalas produced the unremarkable Sovereign Xima appointed to the lowly region of the Auburn Forest.

[hybrid gazelle]

they are so funny

[rotund gust]

yeah

[fossil depot]

soo what the hell did the nasin do to be disgraced

[hybrid gazelle]

THE BEEF IS GENERATIONAL

Well

Gale left

what we can gather so far

[rotund gust]

Majin stalking gale so she would leave and disgrace her house

[hybrid gazelle]

with Gale having old fruman transcriber

[rotund gust]

is kinda funny

[formal bridge]

I assume gale's leaving wasn't as smooth as her just dipping and hiding somewhere else

and she is DEAD

So it was probably a huge mess

[hybrid gazelle]

it seems like Gale meant to be someone who would be involve in resoance weaver project

[rotund gust]

i mean, her grave is in the hive, so assumedly she died over there

[hybrid gazelle]

this is ASSUMING

[rotund gust]

unless they moved her body from fruma to the hive

[hybrid gazelle]

consider Gale mention that she has to learn these strange writing in the diary

[formal bridge]

I mean moreso she probably died violently

[hybrid gazelle]

but since Gale left

[drifting aurora]

i mean. someone being trained for a sovereign position just leaving

is

[formal bridge]

which would put a bad taste in queen's mouth

[hybrid gazelle]

yeah

that bad

[drifting aurora]

a big deal, no

[formal bridge]

She isn't the type to give solo punishments

[hybrid gazelle]

Lexnt

[fossil depot]

is It enough to disgrace an entire house

[hybrid gazelle]

I know this gonna be a lot of work when festival of blizzard hit

[formal bridge]

I mean look what she did to auburn forest lmao

[hybrid gazelle]

but can we please tell Gale that majin is dead

[rotund gust]

gale and syndra lowkey similar position

just one was noble

one wasn't

but both were in line to be a new sovereign

[formal bridge]

Yeah but one failed the test and other presumably passed but dipped anyway

[hybrid gazelle]

Majin can draw in infinite power from the cosmo in a fight

but it will never be enough power to disclose his allegation

[formal bridge]

which is way more insulting

[hybrid gazelle]

STALKING 16 YEARS OLD IS FUCKING CRAZY

YOU AINT GETTING FAR WITH THAT ALLEGATION MAN

[formal bridge]

we invite zhiraok and gale to the next festival and they awkwardly stand next to eachother in detlas

[slim belfry]

I wonder how many people of both houses are left

[winged narwhal]

Could Ohms also have been Fruman?

[hybrid gazelle]

I dont think so

becasue if he is

[rotund gust]

tbh when i first read it i kinda make the assumption is was like an arranged marriage sort of deal, and she hated majin so much that she left before it went through. Granted it doesn't say that, but leaving a country because you hate one person is a bit wild if not

[hybrid gazelle]

then Gale would mention him in diary

I dont think it was arrange marriage LOL

what

Nasin rather collectively shoot themselves than have one of their member marry a Thalas

[rotund gust]

no im just saying that was my initial assumption when i first read it

not that it was right

cause leaving a continent cause 1 person is stalking you is a bit wild

[hybrid gazelle]

it not just that

it also her house as a whole

immesne burden of expectation can does this to you

Majin stalking play a part

but it not the root of the problem

[fossil depot]

Majin is an incel bruh, what did you expect

[hybrid gazelle]

the root of the problem is Gale herself is caged in Fruma and force to live her life to carry the expectation of her house

and forever restrain by the rule of noble than to actually live

even her own fucking diary is BURNED for containning profanity

that is not fucking normal

that is not whateveryone should have

the fact that her butler report her diary meant the yfucking read it

that invasion of privacy

even in her own home she has no privacy to put her thought in

she has to hide it

now imagine that kind of idea presist throughout her entire life

she cant have anyfun

she cant live her life

she force to attent uni at earlier age where everyone there is older than her

making her lonely

and cherry on top that the person that interact with her is from rival house that been stalking and harassing her

it not just majin stalking

in the end, the queen's rulership produce another like her

Gale is like the queen

she is born into a cage but later freed herself from it

Fruma is esssentailly a product of ycle of trauma

shit could be worse if gale choose to carry out the said trauma but good thing she is not

I mean

sh ekinda did by being friend with fucking slaver

but yeah

WELL I MEAN

honestly I think it's morally upgraded to went from being involve with a house that is a long time ally to facist dictator to just being friend with a slaver

like

that SORTA IMPROVE MORALLY IN MESS UP WAY?

Gale is problematic media

[slim belfry]

at least the new one doesn't try to flood a region

[hybrid gazelle]

I mean yeah I dont think you can get more evil than that

[winged narwhal]

I don’t really get why people side with the Queen

[hybrid gazelle]

it likely whatever the fuck going on in that time

is bad enough that any attempt to bring order was supported

and to be fair I dont think anyone realize that they would become fascist dictator empire

cause the thing is that

[formal bridge]

they get tasim tunnel visioned

[hybrid gazelle]

fascism usually form by the charisma of the leader

[formal bridge]

they see her wanting to beat up the big bad realm beasts and forget she does a genocide every so often

[hybrid gazelle]

so people who lead into fascism would get blind sided

to the true nature of it

so to average people

[winged narwhal]

The thing is that the Queen is also repeatedly an asshole

[hybrid gazelle]

siding with the queen = order

[hybrid gazelle]

the reason is that

she asshole to specific group of people

[bold geode]

Though like, at the end of the fight with the player, doesn’t he literally draw so much his body can’t handle it and he explodes

[hybrid gazelle]

NOT to the people who has power in politic

such as the noble houses

to the noble houses, the queen just rule normally cause like

[bold geode]

Like yeah he technically has infinite cosmic power but he can’t use it without going boom

[hybrid gazelle]

why else the highlanders care about the workers and people of Auburn Forest

they are the lower class

so OFC they will be living in poorer condition

[winged narwhal]

Sorry, by « people side with the Queen » I meant actual people

[bold geode]

That’s how I interpreted him going down anyways

[winged narwhal]

Like players

[hybrid gazelle]

oh that part

stupid

[winged narwhal]

Who think killing the Queen was bad

[drifting aurora]

do you mean in world or out of game

out of game. got it

lol

[hybrid gazelle]

out of game

because the thing is that

it like senator armstrong case

[winged narwhal]

I get the power structures and such

[hybrid gazelle]

they tunnel vision on the fact that the queen is right

but the problem is that

they forgot the queen is FUCKING INSANE

[bold geode]

Senator Armstrong mentioned RAHHH

[winged narwhal]

The Queen doesn’t really have much of a reason for the authoritarian bullshit

[hybrid gazelle]

yeah

[winged narwhal]

And she’s also an asshole to people for no reason

[hybrid gazelle]

but the thing

that is not what people focus on

[formal bridge]

I mean kinda?

just consider she essentially had the entire realm of war as a childhood

And the first person she ever knew was Bak'al

[hybrid gazelle]

I would say she has a reason but like the reaosn is so fucking out of our moral

You could argue what she did with Syndra was just her ensuring loyalty

[formal bridge]

she's a control freak parent scared of losing anything that is hers and not caring for anything that isn't hers

[hybrid gazelle]

it still an asshole move

[drifting aurora]

she despises chaos so much that she overcorrects

[hybrid gazelle]

but there is a reason for it

yeah

extactly

[formal bridge]

exactly, control freak

her testing Syndra is probably her not wanting another Bak'al or Gale situation

her soveriegns are the closest thing she has to family in the warped view she grew up with

[winged narwhal]

I'm mostly thinking about the Soosu situation

[hybrid gazelle]

oh that part

I think it mostly that she pissed at Soosu lack of progress

and NOW she lose the weaver

the weaver is important to her

[formal bridge]

she also doesn't really get how humans work

[hybrid gazelle]

so she just punish Soosu hrashly

[formal bridge]

She thinks if she just whips them harder it'll work, cause she's been using her own physical force to rule fruma for so long

[hybrid gazelle]

and that lead her to her downfall because Soosu is really that sucidal

[formal bridge]

She has rebellions brewing constantly and her best solution is always the nuclear button

[bold geode]

Btw how would a zhiraok 3 fight have gone down since yk. He literally evacuates half of auburn forest at the end of apotheosis

[winged narwhal]

I found Soosu's bedroom while playing through the quest first time round so that solidified my opinion of the queen pretty well

[bold geode]

I’m mildly scared

[winged narwhal]

although i still haven't progressed wynn story past then

[hybrid gazelle]

"your majesty, the worker demand sunday break to be commonality"

"gendarmes, aim every single cannons at the wall connect to the Mistwood"

[hybrid gazelle]

if you talking about her blessing

I dont think the queen has a say what blessing Soosu will get

you will see later

[formal bridge]

yeah I've always been of the opinion that the blessings are based on the person given, not the queen's choice

soosu is just absurdly talented to get such an absurd blessing

[winged narwhal]

She either has the ability to revoke Soosu's blessing or is just giving her false hope as a motivational tactic

And she is actively choosing to Omelas her

[hybrid gazelle]

I think getting rid of her blessing is the motivation tactic

okay but you have to remind yourself

[formal bridge]

I imagine she could at least 'get rid of' Soosu if she really wanted

[hybrid gazelle]

Fruma queen written like asian parent

I think that one key detial you forgot

[formal bridge]

but she can't, cause who else is going to fix the resonance weaver

[hybrid gazelle]

and asian parents

to AVERAGE asian parents

[formal bridge]

(she doesn't know of yusanu being similarly talented)

[hybrid gazelle]

mental health is a construct concept

A WOKE NON SENSE if you will

[bold geode]

What does the resonance weaver actually do, btw

[hybrid gazelle]

you know wynncraft make their asian inspired region antagonist well

[winged narwhal]

weaves resonance

[hybrid gazelle]

when they have asian parent mentality

[formal bridge]

control elements really really good

that's about all we know for sure

[bold geode]

I know it makes the underlying magic that permeates everything visible if you feed it the right runes

[bold geode]

I guess it remains a mcguffin until a later date

[winged narwhal]

at the very least Queenie should not be in a position of power

[bold geode]

Isn’t it crazy that the literal gods are limited?

They definitely remind me more of Greek mythology than other religions

[formal bridge]

tbf they are more eldritch entities than gods in the traditional sense

[bold geode]

Absurdly powerful, yet flawed and not omnipotent in the end

[winged narwhal]

I mean, limited gods is how like 95% of belief systems work

[bold geode]

Anathema does describe herself as inherently lesser and we are told she’s weakened by giving out all those blessings

but still, it’s crazy you can just. Kill an eldritch horror like that

[winged narwhal]

The Abrahamic omnipotence approach is the exception more than it is the rule

[formal bridge]

tbf it's more putting her down

[bold geode]

Also two betraying anathema is hilarious to me because it feels like it establishes a theme

[formal bridge]

She already weakened herself and then we broke the vessel and she was going wild

[winged narwhal]

not entirely sure what the situation is between Queenie and the RoW but i'm assuming its like an ouranos castration scenario

[drifting aurora]

two's a very interesting character

[tough axle]

Do we know the lore age if the player character

[bold geode]

Bak’al betrays her, two betrays her, player’s going to have to go behind orphion’s back to stop the war of the realms from tearing the world apart

[tough axle]

Like are they similar to the resistance? Like Rex and sui or older

[bold geode]

I would agree

[winged narwhal]

I assume the player's age probably will be left ambiguous

[tough axle]

Yeah

[bold geode]

Feels like all the scions are just bound to turn on the realm beasts they were chosen by

[quartz mist]

mind that this was across the span of time it took for you to defeat || majin || AND the span of time it took for you to fend off || Tasim || AND the span of time it took for you to duel |||the queen||, AND the queen had no way of sending the message that he was ex-sovereign to the auburn forest so he still had all the authority to mobilize the guard to aid with this, which lifts some of the burden off his shoulders

[formal bridge]

yeah it's not important enough to be defined and they don't want to make you feel so much like a defined character

[quartz mist]

but yeah

zhiraok 3: zhoak harder would probably have been quite a step up

[tough axle]

I mean I see that but judging by the way syndra talks it feels like we at least appear to be a similar age to tasim

Maybe same age appearance wise as Mora?

[bold geode]

He was already the mechanically harshest boss to survive in his rematch fight so

[winged narwhal]

I mean, Tasim has a fairly large reasonably interpretable age range, no?

[quartz mist]

yeah Zero Out is kinda crazy huh

[bold geode]

I think zhiraok 2 killed me more times than all the other bosses combined

[tough axle]

Zihroak froze both times I fought him lol

[bold geode]

Tasim and the queen killed me a whole 0 times so

[tough axle]

Same with Majin 😭

[bold geode]

Happens

[tough axle]

0 deaths to all bosses

Mel killed me the most

Unironically

[bold geode]

still, his ability to just come back is fucking insane

Like, yeah he can overdo it

but imagine you don’t know

[winged narwhal]

i could see him as anywhere from late twenties to somewhere in his forties

[bold geode]

and this guy just comes back again and again and he’s faster every time

absolute despair

[quartz mist]

yeah, that's why it (spoilers) ||breaks in Apotheosis||

it originally wasn't planned to, but after some discussion it was found that if we didn't, it'd have led to a) a lot of very difficult-to-answer questions that I was fully prepared to answer in the most morbid way possible, and b) power-scaling issues that would have genuinely wrecked the story

[bold geode]

I’m ngl I would have been fine with zhiraok just being overpowered because he actually quite manages to feel about as strong as the story claims he is

And fruma clearly doesn’t shy away from torturing characters or giant blood puddles

some stuff that’s more morbid to explain would have fit right in

Though I see how dealing with someone immortal is considerably problematic for the story

[hybrid gazelle]

can we have wynncraft challenge, Z everywhere

where from the beginning of the game

timer will ticks and when it hit 0
Zhiraok will spawn scaling up to player current level

and act as player's stalker enemy

[bold geode]

https://tenor.com/view/ultra-kill-coin-peaches-peach-v1-gif-1836948023084674502

KNIFE

[hybrid gazelle]

level 10 player when Zhiraok fucking spawn and hunting them down

[bold geode]

Majin would be more fitting for this role

[formal bridge]

POV: you are gale

[bold geode]

you have no fucking mana 😭 that just kills you

nothing you can do

literally runs circles around you (both z and the knives)

It’s a pretty funny idea though

Impending doom gamemode where whenever your timer runs out it spawns a major boss with improved mobility and some absurd aggro range on you

That said, what actually kills Majin at the end of his fight

[slim belfry]

he explodes

[rotund gust]

zhiraok froze every time i’ve tried to fight him on beta and on live which totals to like 12 different fights if you’re counting the times i switched worlds to try again

majin got stuck in the ceiling and frozen in 1/4 of my fights against him on beta and my 1 fight on live

[bold geode]

Yeah does he just channel so much cosmic energy he goes boom or what

[slim belfry]

yes too much cosmic magic

[formal bridge]

https://tenor.com/view/explosion-cat-gif-5858640239144030160

[slim belfry]

he OD'd

[bold geode]

Also thoughts on Majin just going insane from the shooting star since yk, meteors do that to people

His, ahem “well adjusted character”

[rotund gust]

i mean he seems pretty lucid up until his overdose

[bold geode]

Might stem from that

[rotund gust]

like yeah he’s prideful

but not crazy

[bold geode]

hm yeah true

[formal bridge]

I think the cosmic magic is more meant to be metaphorical of himself

absurdly powerful and strong but ultimately aimless and does nothing but harm those around it

[rotund gust]

also he didn’t touch a meteor or get close to it presumably, he just saw majins comet

[slim belfry]

I think the little cosmic magic he uses does feed his pride
literally in a way

[formal bridge]

and eventually destroys itself

[bold geode]

Waiting 7 years for fruma was so worth

[rotund gust]

i really wanna see a “look what they need to mimic a fraction of our power” but it’s amadel standing over majin

[bold geode]

It’s actually peak

[quartz mist]

"Tick tock, murderer. I know your face. My seeing the timestream may have been part of a horrible miscalculation, but I'll be making the most of it. I'll terminate your sequence before you ever set foot in Fruma again!"

[rotund gust]

lmfao, like those “hollow knight enemy randomizers” but every enemy is the oncoming storm zhiraok

[winged narwhal]

when i bring up the castration of Ouranos do people know what I'm talking about or do I just sound insane

[quartz mist]

birth of Venus, right

[hybrid gazelle]

https://tenor.com/view/yakuza-majima-majima-goro-kiryu-kiryu-kazuma-gif-26858926

how Zhiraok appear when player trying to proffing

[bold geode]

^ the idea of this is so fucking funny to me

[winged narwhal]

Yeah, that and Ouranos not manifesting afterwards but the thing he personifies still existing

[bold geode]

Z chase + hardcore char

good luck

[rotund gust]

zhiraok just randomly jumping the player as they travel through nesaak at level 45 because two told him what we would do

[hybrid gazelle]

imagine if there special intreaction in fruma quest

where Zhiraok just rush at you when the fruma gate open"

and you have to fucking fight him

after the fight, the quest just continue like nothing happen LOL

[winged narwhal]

Zhiraok replaces every tournament opponent

[rotund gust]

“to test who is worthy to be added to the tournament, I have been tasked to test if you are equal to me first”

[bold geode]

By the time you get to mistwoods you fight Z7

[hybrid gazelle]

going through Timesca, and just see Zhiraok pop out of the trash can

SUSPICIOUSLY ZHIRAOK SHAPED TRASH CAN

[rotund gust]

zhiraok, the relentless whirlwind

they just keep making new titles for him each time

[bold geode]

This is now my headcanon for how the hypothetical AHC timeline fruma would go

[quartz mist]

i wanna see art of that tbh

of zhiraok just, miraculously knowing ahead of time what the player will do and stalking them throughout wynn in various ways

[rotund gust]

i’m imagining like… him following us on his tip-toes, making the cartoon noise, and whenever we turn around he just freezes

[quartz mist]

and he makes The Face

[hybrid gazelle]

https://tenor.com/view/puss-in-boots-wolf-death-the-last-wish-whistle-gif-27491876

how player felt when Zhiraok appeari n ROL 5

[rotund gust]

or he bolts behind the nearest lamp post or tree, but his shoulders are so wide that it’s very very noticeable

[bold geode]

You’re assuming he doesn’t just fucking “teleport” away if you would spot him

You see the trash can out of the corner of your eye

Turn towards it

[quartz mist]

https://tenor.com/view/krunk-cartoon-emperors-new-groove-gif-7870466

[bold geode]

Vanishes in a flash

[rotund gust]

yes exactly that

zhiraok is giving kronk but smarter

[unique hill]

lol

[rotund gust]

Queen: Pull the Lever Zhiraok
opens a trapdoor under the queen instead of the lever that opens to dam
WRONG LEVERRR

[bold geode]

when you know you’re being watched by fruma but you can’t prove it yet

[unique hill]

honestly the more i played through z's quests the more i liked him as a character

esp on the second run

[drifting aurora]

fruma my beloved

[rotund gust]

fuma

yall best put zhiraok in bloomi

or ima riot

[bold geode]

I mean, he’s loyal, but not blindly so, justifiably upset at the player and seems pretty nice as a person, if maybe a little quirky with the whole math personality

[quartz mist]

but yeah, zhiraok everywhere

chopped down a tree? zhiraok was hiding in the branches and drops onto your head with a kick
busy mining and your pickaxe broke? there he is handing you a new one and then trying to stab your face
buying some whiskey at the bar? he zip-teleports up to the counter, pays your tab, and drags you outside for a brawl
walking through Theorick's mansion? Zhiraok scoops Eppo up into the ceiling and drops in with a three-point landing
fending off Lari at the Guardian of the Forest? zhiraok joins in to double-team you the instant it starts
trying the hive? guess who's taken over the Psychomancer's room(and kept getting blown out of the air room by a weirdly strong wind)
just fended off the Canyon Colossus? well Zhiraok was actually helping for a bit there since it was genuinely a threat to People but he assaults you in the raid rewards room
just sacrificed Aledar at the altar in front of EO? Zhiraok drops down and takes that as proof you're nothing but a filthy murderer and challenges you again

[bold geode]

there’s nothing to really hate or much dislike

[unique hill]

idk i just started finding the math gimmick more funny ithink

[formal bridge]

I liked him more as the quests went on once I realized he's a dweeb and not meant to be super menacing like Gikyo is for instance

poor guy is holding fruma up on his back alone

the math quirk is a bit much at times for me too though

[drifting aurora]

one thing i like is how each sovereign has a distinctly different feeling role in the story

[hybrid gazelle]

openning up lootrun cchest and see Zhiraok inside it, waiting to give you a knuckle sandwich