📚lore_discussion

[mossy badge]

While at it, put hunters also

[hybrid gazelle]

it fine for what they are, their presence did push the leaves to leave Auburn

so that fine I just wish we could see them

[tepid blade]

true

[hybrid gazelle]

them disappearing around the corner could be nice addition

I liek the idea that during festival in auburn

maybe Syndra spotted inquistor so she told us to leave

which then end the quest

I think that could be cool enough to include them

maybe have Two appear alongside them

is not she suppose to be their boss?

kidna odd that Two never really appear with them

[uneven basin]

Why would she

[hybrid gazelle]

because she is their boss

I kinda like

expecting her to interact with them a bit

[uneven basin]

Like for how little we see inquisitors I don't think there's ever a situation where her presence around them is warranted

[hybrid gazelle]

I mean yeah that make sense

[uneven basin]

We just don't see enough of two for that too

[lusty glacier]

and id assume that when inquisitors need to interact with their boss its behind closed doors, two does not exactly appear in public much

[hybrid gazelle]

yeah that fair

We probably see them more in Wasteland

[lusty glacier]

like im trying to remember when we saw two in the public

[hybrid gazelle]

nope

we never see Two in public

[mossy badge]

She can just communicate with the mirror 🤯

[hybrid gazelle]

she is not even there in university

[lusty glacier]

yea i mean if thats the case then i dont think shed want to appear to tell her minions some stuff

i wouldnt be surprised if most frumans dont even know her

[mossy badge]

I wonder where she even resides when idle or whatever

The palace ig

[hybrid gazelle]

Honsetly mannn

Thinking about raid

I wonder how Gallehaut could be rework to be more threatening

[lusty glacier]

palace or some parts of the crypts probably, they have said its very expansive still not fully mapped out

[uneven basin]

well actually on the topic of two

[mossy badge]

She visits the council for nostalgy ❤️‍🩹

[tepid blade]

Knowing Two, she probably would just live in some kind of pocket dimension of her own creation of extra safety

[regal walrus]

Does the off the rails guy ever show up again

The person who did it

[mossy badge]

Nope

[tepid blade]

no, he just gets arrested

[mossy badge]

Mentioned once

Thats it

[regal walrus]

Rip

[uneven basin]

What the hell is this place ? Council mettup spot ?

[mossy badge]

Ye

[uneven basin]

oh grand

[lusty glacier]

what council?

[mossy badge]

The ancient frumers' council

[lusty glacier]

where is it?

[mossy badge]

Near the citadel catacombs, accessible from mistwoods

[azure tangle]

Wait I’m just realizing the implications of this rooms placement lol

[radiant harbor]

There's no secret discovery or anything related to this place?

[azure tangle]

Queen just plopped alumia right on top of the old capitol

[mossy badge]

Nope

The place itself has nothing

[tepid blade]

nope, just there from what I know of, at least for now

[mossy badge]

U visit it once with two

Thats it

[radiant harbor]

The last place you visit? The one in her memories?

[tepid blade]

yep

[radiant harbor]

Okk

[mossy badge]

Thanks bro now im gonna look beautiful 🔥

They nailed the mobs in those cutscenes ngl

[vestal rivet]

can I find all of the NPCs anywhere after I'm done with all of the quests + WTP?

a lot of them were left some place or another and never seen after Apotheosis

[tepid blade]

no for most of the characters, you can find Tasim at ||the old leaves in the winds base||

but that's about it for now

[vestal rivet]

just checked there, didn't see him

[tepid blade]

he is there, ||He's at Aledar's grave||

[vestal rivet]

didn't realize the place had a graveyard
thanks

[tepid blade]

welcome

[vestal rivet]

ok now I'm curious as to how ||Aledar has a grave here||

[hollow lynx]

He was dead to all the leaves knew

Got caught and well

Most likely gone

[vestal rivet]

so honorary grave

[hollow lynx]

Aelader was a former leaves member

Yes

[vestal rivet]

idk how we know this even after having done all the secret discoveries

[hollow lynx]

Why would they have 2 graves of a random stranger

[hybrid gazelle]

Becuase it not secrect discoveries lol

If you are there when you doing leaves chapter

[vestal rivet]

how did Tasim now about this then???

[hybrid gazelle]

Kaio would be there to explain a lot of things

We probably tell him at some point

Or some missing event happen along the way

[vestal rivet]

ah Kaio
I somehow only encountered him once before the final few quests, so when he came back I was all like "who tf are you?"

[hybrid gazelle]

Again we don’t know the time spans between these two events

[hollow lynx]

Who is Kaio

[hybrid gazelle]

A leaves member

He just an older member

[hollow lynx]

Is it that uhh

[vestal rivet]

the leaves member who stayed behind when everyone else went to roughworks

[hollow lynx]

Assasin?

I think I remember

[hybrid gazelle]

No

He just an old guy

[vestal rivet]

yeah he shows up exactly once outside of missable side stuff apparently
as far as stuff before the final couple quests are concerned

and as far as I know

[hollow lynx]

Then I don't remember

[hybrid gazelle]

He appear in relevation in fall during the meeting

[vestal rivet]

yeah that is the once

[hybrid gazelle]

And yoh can talk to him in ensemble of hope

But other than that no

[vestal rivet]

and that's the second to last quest, which qualifies as the last couple

[hasty spoke]

I should ask in questions how to get a secret discovery yeah?

[hollow lynx]

Blud gets a seat but we don't

[vestal rivet]

dude got no screentime

and no relevance

just random leaves member who stayed home to watch the garden or whatever

[hollow lynx]

Don't even remember seeing him

[vestal rivet]

I didn't either lol

took me a while to realize who he was

[hybrid gazelle]

He just an old guy

Like he said

He is too old to figh now

He does not really have the energy to do it

[vestal rivet]

nobody done said he was fighting anything now

just that they didn't know who he was

and the answer that you helped to give was leaves member who shows up to exactly 1 meeting + old guy

[buoyant depot]

you can find kaio doing some gardening or whatever, behind the leaves base in the first few fruma quests

[vapid path]

lol we raid the dam elevator to gather the leaves, and it’s only one old dude that shows up

Just… thank god for canopy lol

[peak geyser]

||do we know who’s leading fruma now after we killed the queen or no?||

[ornate imp]

question about apotheosis, ||does tasim's fate change depending on what you say after he suggest you to murder him?||

[ornate imp]

||zhiraok soosu and two, though "leading" is a generous term, since there is still a rift above the world and the entire world in panic||

[peak geyser]

||I assumed after completing the raid with the rift gone it’s actually gone||

[ornate imp]

||they are only gone visually, from our dialogue with anathema, the rifts are still there||

[peak geyser]

||good to know hopefully when the next bit of the expansion comes around we get to learn how to close it thank you||

[tepid blade]

||no||

[hollow lynx]

"Do it yourself" is too far

[clever marlin]

this discovery is why ||sovtwos vision of full-light gavel in a world without dark makes no sense and functions as a retcon for the sake of justifying the queen||
||the light isnt erasing or replacing, its preserving, keeping things as are in a protective state even in an environment of full dern influence||

[spring kernel]

that discovery is so weird

[clever marlin]

its weird cuz it retcons ||sovtwos vision and goes against the portrayal of light as a bad thing for the world||

but it makes sense with the other portrayals of light i;e realm of light and light forest

[spring kernel]

two's vision isn't really telling us anything new, the light's lore has always been that it is that, but the current stuff ingame does a very very bad job of showing that

[woven galleon]

in the strong survive, the missing message is|| "my name is niren"|| how relevant is it?

[clever marlin]

honestly light lore is written as "doing what you must despite morality" so its just confusing to see an objectively hostile portrayal in one specific quest

i do think this discovery and other portayals does disprove the notion (even if thats the intention despite the delivery) shows ||sovtwo as more manipualtive to get us to side with the queen than actually objective, especially considering shes viewing 'possibilities' so her view shes presenting to us as objective could straight up just be wrong for our reality. if she were ACTUALLY able to see the objective future she wouldnt have told us off and probably would have informed the queen. granted we dont know her motivations but she is the second sovereign and does try to convince us to see the queens actions as just for the world while ignoring the harm that corruption, the realm of war, and the queen herself does to the plane of influence||

oops sent that early

||overall it seems to be more of a manipulation tactic than anything else||

i gotta get better at doing that

anyway i think thats just more interesting than the alternative

[gleaming apex]

My idea for how it fits in is that Orphion is some kinda ||well meaning bad guy, like he thinks he'll be making the world better in some way that we might disagree with||

[clever marlin]

yeah i can see that being the case especially with rol3, but his actions are based on reason and ||in a world without dark there is no reason to do what we see in sovtwos vision since the monolithsa are expressly stated and shown to be a form of preservation against the dark, in a world without it theres no need for that||

[gleaming apex]

I actually have a theory for his ultimate plan. ||What if he plans to put everyone's souls in pillars like the one in Lutho? So that everyone would live happy lives inside forever, but we obviously would disagree. He would think it would be better for everyone and it would also explain all the pillars in Two's vision||

[clever marlin]

||i think he already wouldve started doing that, we dont see any hints of monoliths in light forest flashback which is under his full influence. if hes able to conjure the guardian of the forest he would definitely be able to make a monolith||

[spring kernel]

i hate how badly the light is currently portrayed

[clever marlin]

its not portrayed badly tbh

its just that ||what we see in fruma conflicts||

retcons often do lol

[spring kernel]

the fact that this conversation is happening proves that it is portrayed badly

[gleaming apex]

Yeah there's a few issues, I'm just trying to connect what we knew before to the current info we have without just assuming everything before should be ignored

[clever marlin]

these conversations are only happening because it was written one way for the entire time and then suddenly a new reveal of information ||from somebody who has something to gain by portraying orphion as villanous|| comes along and conflicts

||thats why i think its an attempt of manipulation rather than an objective view of reality||

[pine forum]

Yeah, I think it is as simple as ||Two not being as neutral as they want you to think||

[clever marlin]

yeah

shroom gets it

[radiant harbor]

Why are we assuming what you are saying in spoilers there?

[gleaming apex]

Yep. I've been saying, until we can actually talk to ||Orphion|| to get his perspective, we shouldn't be casting judgement just yet and should just take the new info into account

[pine forum]

I do with the dark wasn't such an objective evil since light isn't objective good but cest la vie

[clever marlin]

same

orphion is like lawful neutral dern beast is chaotic evil

[slim belfry]

eh not really conflicts just existing info is not enough
I already didnt like orphion before fruma and the feeling remains the same

[gleaming apex]

Because ||Two is a servant of Anathema, who has the most reason out of anyone ever to paint the beasts in a negative light||

[clever marlin]

^^

[radiant harbor]

But she went against her by freeing us

[clever marlin]

||when she shows us that scene its in the context of being told to handle us, what better way to get us to stop fighting back than to lie||

[slim belfry]

uh

||why would that entire sequence be a lie||

||I feel like that would defeat the purpose of everything that comes after ||

[clever marlin]

||to get us to stop fighting the queen?||

[gleaming apex]

I don't think it's necessarily a lie, but it could be inaccurate

[slim belfry]

||huh?
no that sequence happens if we DO stop fighting the queen||

[clever marlin]

yeah

shards of POSSIBILITY

[cinder cedar]

In the end, despite how objective and thoughtful 2 is, they have clear biases

[clever marlin]

yeah

[slim belfry]

yeah towards the player as time went on

[clever marlin]

even if ||they do let us go, they still have something to gain||

[obsidian bane]

theres a door at the top of the staircase where you can use the name to talk to the guy

[gleaming apex]

Remember, ||Two canonically cannot see into the Beast's realms or know what they're thinking or planning||, so while she may believe what's she's saying, we can't be 100% sure everything in the vision is trustworthy

[obsidian bane]

do we even know who/what two is

[clever marlin]

||its also a shard of POSSBILITY, thats super important, its presented as objective but two doesnt have a way of knowing if its a concrete fact||

[pine forum]

||Also for the record I think there is a world where what Two shows us is basically a light version of the decay, as in things need both light and dark to exist and losing their dark would petrify them like what we see, but that's moreso how this could be justified than what's supported in game and I think manipulation is more likely. Theres just some part of me that wants the dark to be necessary lol||

[clever marlin]

realm of stars beast

LMFAOOO

[obsidian bane]

wtf

is that real

[pine forum]

Huge if true

[clever marlin]

huge if true

[slim belfry]

||she's likely a part of the old civilization before queen arrived||

[obsidian bane]

I did not get anything like that from the dialogue

[clever marlin]

yeah im joking lol

realm of stars is my crackpot theory of the cosmic realm where meteors come from it isnt a real thing

[vestal rivet]

anywhere I can find all the potential dialogue from the end of WTP? the talker done died on me before I could ask half the things

[obsidian bane]

hmm
maybe a wayward ||olm|| that got over to fruma and lived long enough to get noticed by the queen?

[vestal rivet]

I wouldn't be surprised if meteors were just like
Orphion's covert attempts at expansion or something

[slim belfry]

||https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FeIyKgKSvTZc9R2xyJXjibaLKravjEqveKG5sB87iG8/edit?usp=drivesdk||

[gleaming apex]

Basically what I'm saying is while I'm willing to entertain the possibility of ||Orphion|| actually being ruthlessly evil, I'm not going to go forward on the assumption that it's the absolute truth until we get some more info

[pine forum]

That would make the name make sense

[slim belfry]

ruthless seems a bit much

definitely only cares about himself though

[obsidian bane]

I call people who genocide olux citizens ruthless

[pine forum]

||Two as in second scion ever after ba'kal(?)||

[slim belfry]

ok that's fair

[atomic hamlet]

From a Doylist perspective ||Orphion is absolutely evil, this sort of characterization has been wanted by the CT for a long time and Two/WTP is exactly the narrative peak where it should be revealed||

[clever marlin]

ct for the past 10 years during their lore rewrites and clarifications and only choosing now to portray it this way is so much of a retcon it feels like intentional misdirection

||orphion is NOT evil, he is morally ambiguious, thats the whole point of the light and its told to us time and time again||

[atomic hamlet]

Consider the fact that pre-Fruma writing was for a decent part just pretty bad

[pine forum]

Real ones know about the secret 5th realm(realm of slime) that will become relevant in wastelands

Bad doesn't make it non canon

[obsidian bane]

realm of slime is where skylar goes to get jacked

[clever marlin]

that doesnt change the fact that they wrote it how they wrote it with every opprotunity to write it differently

[clever marlin]

LMFAO

realm of slime...

[slim belfry]

yeah the light isn't "bad" or "evil"
it only exists to serve itself

same with the dark

[atomic hamlet]

The light’s intent is categorically evil though - you don’t need explicit malice to be evil

[edgy loom]

I think the gylia's cataclysm ultimate discovery is broken

the cutscene won't play

[gleaming apex]

I'm not saying that ||Orphion|| can't be evil, I'm just saying that he might have more complex motivations and plans than ||Use everyone then kill everyone mwa ha ha||

[atomic hamlet]

A corrupt politician that takes bribes and makes shady deals to enrich themselves is evil but not necessarily malicious all the time

[spring kernel]

Orphion is a force

[pine forum]

You don't but I do think it's a case of "you can't fault a dog for being a dog"

[obsidian bane]

I think his plans are mainly to kill the seen beast

Dern

[atomic hamlet]

The thing differentiating Orphion and some animal is that Orphion has some degree of awareness of his actions

[slim belfry]

wait why am I arguing orphion isn't evil he is

I've been saying this for a long time

I think I'm getting tired

[atomic hamlet]

Orphion’s goals are pretty much 1: kill his hated rival and 2: grow his own power, and he is willing to do that at any cost including the entire world

[clever marlin]

the choice we get to prove ourselves to him has multiple angles, the one he really is focusing on is "is it ok for somebody to harm a few if it benefits the world" @ dr urelix
it isnt an evil choice, its a morally ambiguious choice. its NOT good to let dr urelix continue but orphion is ok with it because golems have protected the living for a long time now

hes never been written as pure evil

[atomic hamlet]

No, Urelix’s choice is an absolutely evil choice

[clever marlin]

being above the concept of morals doesnt make you an evil force

[slim belfry]

OK ABOUT THIS
you do know that this exactly parallels the queen's own "beastly" actions like ||floodin auburn right||

[atomic hamlet]

At least by Kantian ethics, it’s completely morally unjustifiable, but in terms of potential utility raises the possibility that evil could be considered necessary in certain circumstances

It’s still totally evil though

If you kill babies (which is pretty much close to what this is) to protect other people, it’s still evil, it just might be a necessary form of evil depending on who sees it

[gleaming apex]

Orphion clearly has intelligence. He is a character. I'm saying that he will probably have a more complex motivation than simply expand light. I'm not saying that can't be his primary motivation, but there has to be more. Maybe he doesn't want to but has to do it or something. I would be extremely disappointed if it really is just "he's pure evil with nothing else"

[slim belfry]

utilitarians when they get sucked into orphion's obelisks

[atomic hamlet]

Orphion’s even more unethical though because he doesn’t even do it for the greater good of anything in particular, he does it for himself

[gleaming apex]

I was unaware you have the exclusive dialogue that displays exactly what Orphion is thinking and planning. Can you tell us the rest of the story from the future too?

[slim belfry]

we have the queen as the literal hate child of the two and in the abused becomes the abuser situation that mirrors her "parent" beasts

[clever marlin]

tbh the queens actions mostly benefit her station, rebellions and wars arise because she is the queen of a nation that justifies slavery and opression. orphions choice is based on the whole vs the few. morally yes letting some die so others can be protected IS evil, but orphion doesnt exist of a moral standpoint, to him the golems protect far more life than the cost to protect that life
to us its a horrible choice to make, but a player choosing to side with urelix does not make them or orphion evil

[slim belfry]

ok but orphion isn't above morals

that's the issue

he has his own intelligence and will to stop but doesn't

[gleaming apex]

Again I am saying I'm not opposed to Orphion being evil, but we don't even know if it's true yet.

[slim belfry]

ah I get it
the only reason he currently isn't is and why I'm flip floppy is because he's in a weakened position

we can't see more of this side of him until he gains back his strength

[clever marlin]

yeah same, it definitely isnt portayed as him being evil. honestly calling him evil is flat out ignoring him being above morals and saying he isnt above morals is ignoring what we are told and shown while also putting our own view of morals on it

[spring kernel]

Orphion's morality is that he does not care

[clever marlin]

the light isnt "good" but it isnt evil either, if you want evil look at dern

[pine forum]

Also this is unrelated but do we ever find out why the queen picked ||Tasim|| over us? She mentioned some special quality but I don't remember if that was elaborated on, was it just that she thought they'd be more willing to do it?

[spring kernel]

dern also is not evil

[clever marlin]

dern beast is literally siding with the guy who is destroying wynn
orphions actions at least allows some form of preservation but every time the dern beasts influence comes in it leaves death and destruction in its wake

[slim belfry]

I said what if the player asked orphion if he can stop expanding lol

[cinder cedar]

||Tasim was strong enough, predictable and controllable. We are unpredictable, uncontrollable. ||

[stuck sinew]

he's a good boi we're not

[pine forum]

Ahh, checks out

[spring kernel]

it's mentioned in the first quest

when two shows up

[stuck sinew]

everyone else that comes with also doesn't trust fruma/the queen

[pine forum]

All roads lead to hollow knight player /j

[cinder cedar]

Also|| Tasim was in multiple magazines prior getting kicked out, dude's a supermodel. ||

[clever marlin]

||were unpredictable but tasim is literally "yes m'lady"||

[gleaming apex]

We don't know that for sure either! This is all based on what the most biased and secretive people in the world have told us. Why are we treating what they say as truth? All I am saying is that they might be wrong, just like they might be right! We shouldn't be casting judgement yet when we only have one side of the full story.

[drifting aurora]

gee tasim where did you get that tank

[stuck sinew]

so true bestie

[pine forum]

Is this real thats really funny

[cinder cedar]

I got it from my daddy

[pine forum]

Good for him

[gleaming apex]

When we can talk to Orphion then I'll consider casting judgement, but until then I'll entertain both possibilities

[cinder cedar]

Go read the magazines in the Citadel shop

[drifting aurora]

doesnt this tell you it isnt actually tasim

just someone who looks like him

[slim belfry]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/262010576295821312/1469469736768245892/image.png?ex=69e60916&is=69e4b796&hm=1b3d028011598d51a0b1180f47b07e8dd0b5761a6de467c80ff2d9e0dad5cde4&

[cinder cedar]

surely I ain't jestin'?

[pine forum]

His older brother wasim

[gleaming apex]

Hello player, this is my secret cousin Fasim

[cinder cedar]

memes and jokes aside, Tasim does have the look for good propaganda campaing

[pine forum]

The reformed wynn barbarian

[cinder cedar]

should we get back to is Orphion evil or just selfish?

[limber swan]

evil

[slim belfry]

both

[pine forum]

I think selfish is a better term anyways, its kind of unhelpful to call a cosmic force evil

[clever marlin]

honestly wynn has a problem with showing and telling us things one way then doing a flat 180 to tell us its different
orphion is not portrayed as objectively evil force that wants to destroy everything, he maintains and preserves as seen with the monolith (the fact he even bothered to TRY to keep these people safe at all in the middle of his mortal enemies plane of influence) and the guardian of the forest/light forest allowing life to bloom while also making choices that may be evil on a moral standpoint for us, but to him aid in the preservation of life even with a cost
dern beast IS portrayed as objectively evil through his partnership with bakal and the spreading of destruction/death in his wake with nothing left behind besides his own twisted influence which seeks only to destroy more
its a problem with portraying and characterizing forces outside of our understanding but also trying to outline a clear antagonist for the story to drive towards, then throwing a wrench in to make it seem more interesting while also complicating the previous portrayal
its like azathoth, he doesnt destroy because he loves to destroy, he destroys because he IS destruction and rebirth. dern beast plans to destroy and even has evil villian speech in the ultimate discovery
i do think if orphion was portrayed as "preservation for the sake of continutation no matter the cost" and dern beast was "destruction for the sake of rebirth no matter the cost" itd be better, but dern beast only destroys and orphion is apparently ontologically evil

sorry for the like

[pine forum]

You aren't really evil for failing to consider the lives of beetles when you build a house

[clever marlin]

textwall

but i think there is a way to portray them as both morally ambiguous that isnt just being reached by what we have now despite the rewrites

[slim belfry]

this is an issue of the realm of light questline being awful

[clever marlin]

thats true

7eah

realm of light does also need a rewrite

[slim belfry]

this was a similar issue to the previous silent expanse dialogue

[clever marlin]

they should lowk let me rewrite the realm lore ive actually read lovecraft 💯

LMFAO im joking btw

[gleaming apex]

I think another issue is how the light forest is presented vs the silent expanse. The light forest might have some issues, but the silent expanse is a soul stealing wasteland full of horrific parasites and fates worse than death.

[light ocean]

I find it funny how this conversation is happening at the same time as my Reddit post discussing who is a True Neutral NPC (I suggested Tasim and someone else suggested Orphion)

[slim belfry]

the silent expanse isn't all bad

[gleaming apex]

???????

[zenith coral]

the lovecraft angle is prolly what they were going for. maybe orphion just doesnt get morals due to inhumanity so he inherentley doesnt consider things like that and thinks the matrix is just paradise

[clever marlin]

orphion true n eutral lmfaoooo

[slim belfry]

the omnispective wanderer is my buddy

[pine forum]

W take, I think realm of light spends all of its time trying to establish that orphion isnt a perfect good guy and forgets to set up what he actually is

And the dern beast....didnt even come up until now so lmao

[clever marlin]

the silent expanse is a horrid zone of death and destruction for the sake of it at the dern beasts whims, the lutho monolith exists to protect the bodies of the lost while preserving their sanity eternally
again, morally dubious, but not outright evil

[slim belfry]

what about the art exhibit you can visit with green name dernites

[zenith coral]

as ive previously stated i hc that all of orphions good rep is due to him being unable to do anything and the remainder of his influence fighting the more obviously evil dark creatures. so people built up a false image of him

[gleaming apex]

Yeah I could accept something like Orphion wanting to stick everyone in the obelisk matrix thing and thinking it's best, since at least then it would match up better with his previous character

[clever marlin]

i do think toxic wastes does portray a destruction for the sake of rebirth well because it is a living organism, but i do think that the dern beast itself is a beast of destruction for the sake of it
why else would he make the nameless anomaly, which exists to do nothing moire than pull the world into the blank wasteland of the void

[zenith coral]

the namesless anomaly as i understood it apparentley just wants to get out of dern and everything else comes second

[slim belfry]

we don't know if TNA exists because he made it

or it made it

[cinder cedar]

I don't know how to feel about Orphion tbh

[slim belfry]

TNA isn't even aware of its actions

[zenith coral]

'carved out prolly fits better'

[zenith coral]

well i thought it wanted to get out of dern

maybe i am hallucinating lore again

[slim belfry]

yeah I don't think that's mentioned anywhere

[pine forum]

Have we considered dern is the green voice in the minecraft poem and orphion is the blue one ?

[edgy loom]

what the fuck do you mean well know

[tepid blade]

I have a theory that the reason the light forest is less dangerous than the silent expanse is that Orphion is very orderly, but in way that if you don't fit his vision of order (AKA all mortal beings), he will get rid of you , while Saphanis doesn't give a shit about order, he just seeks to conquer, which why his beings look more eldritch

[zenith coral]

like i was convinced the light forest secret discovery had the dern beast talk to orphion and wanting to become one with him once more

[cinder cedar]

I don't mind Orphion being morally selfish in the terms of self preservation, dude seems to be wanting to just chill, but the new info despite being biast does make sense to be

[slim belfry]

WYNNEX LOL

[cinder cedar]

I wouldn't call Orphion good tho

[edgy loom]

wynnex doesn't explain it either does it

[slim belfry]

NOPE

[zenith coral]

well the notes under his song say i want to get out. take that as you will

[edgy loom]

just that an ancient civilization (the olm) looked after them

[light ocean]

Given how Fruma is 105-120 I wonder what level Dern is gonna be if we actually go there (since SE is 100-103)

[edgy loom]

I mean ig the answer is that the magic stones come from the sky but like, idk if that's well known

[pine forum]

Yeah it'll be a weird sequence

[tepid blade]

I would guess around the same level range, between 15 to 20 levels

[gleaming apex]

The issue with pure evil Orphion is that you have to accept he was a lying manipulator every time we ever spoke or met him, and if he was doing that, why go through all the utilitarian stuff to possibly drive us away when you could be portray yourself as the bestest ever to begin with. That's why I could accept evil Orphion who thinks he's good, or anything that isn't just pure evil with nothing else

[slim belfry]

that's the class player not the boss

[zenith coral]

not always

also one of the tna songs had a very meta-sounding note

[cinder cedar]

I am getting the vibes of us needing to severe the ties of all the beasts influence on ours, since we cannot fully kill gods

[slim belfry]

if you look at all three songs it's the warrior wanting to go back home after being in the void for too long

[pine forum]

Congratulations, you've reinvented ||the queen's plan||

[tepid blade]

none of the notes under the songs are canon BTW

[slim belfry]

likely not canon but can be canon-compliant

[cinder cedar]

Expect it applies to Queen aswell

[pine forum]

Yeah

[cinder cedar]

Queen can leave and take her kids with her

[pine forum]

||Sui|| we need you to close the portal it'll work this time

[gleaming apex]

The notes are supposed to give an impression of player thoughts at that moment, while not actually being canon

[zenith coral]

maybe he is the thing that comes out if cosmic horror activeley invades well-meaningly. the utter inhumanity easily leads to a matrix point. or in of the fics i read a eldritch horror falls in love with a human but thinks his human form is disgusting so it just plops him down in yharnam and starts a time-loop and waits for him to ascend. pureley well meaning, but no human concept of morals. blue and orange morality

[zenith coral]

or we seal them into pets. i hc that the pets are us forcing them to get along

[atomic hamlet]

Nothing happened at Aelumia Citadel in 998 AP

[snow kiln]

I don't really get it though by the player killing ||anathema|| the corruption doesn't just stop won't it?

[edgy loom]

do we know if the guy in this discovery lived? https://wynncraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Canyon_Housing

[zenith coral]

anathema never really had much control

[snow kiln]

In that sense killing dern beast and orphion wouldn't make the war between RoL and Dern stop?

[slim belfry]

yes
which is why they need to be sealed

[snow kiln]

But do we know the extent to which Orphion and Sephanis have control over their realms?

[slim belfry]

killing just makes it easier

[zenith coral]

killing concepts is never a good idea, what if the realms just go wild

or a new realm beast just immediateley pops up, we didnt destroy the realm

[zenith coral]

greater than anathema had

[cinder cedar]

can we change the concept since they are abstract?

[snow kiln]

yeah this is for sure

[atomic hamlet]

Actually Deusphage just straight up states that Orphion’s bad so that’s also what I’m going off

[snow kiln]

but still it kinda puts the player at a blockade here

[slim belfry]

they want ingame statements I believe

which lol

[tepid blade]

Well killing them separately would be a bad idea, as Two said, if one dies alone, we loose, and defeating around the same time is near impossible, which means the only way to win is the defeat them both around the same time

[zenith coral]

like i said it could just be his actions have disastrous consequences, and he thinks he is a lawful good can-do-no-wrong

[pine forum]

||Anathema's realm exists because of the war between realms, not because Anathema wants it to. You gotta stop the war to destroy the realm of war||

[snow kiln]

also I believe that killing anathema as early as the player did it was a bad thing

[snow kiln]

yes that was my point

[atomic hamlet]

Doesn’t ||Two say that Orphion’s completely self-interested||

[snow kiln]

dern beast and orphion are just manifestations of 'light' and 'dark'

killing them wouldn't do anything

[atomic hamlet]

Unreliable narrator point but still

[zenith coral]

x to doubt, it will weaken it but likeley not destroy it

[snow kiln]

yes we already knew this though

[zenith coral]

does she know for sure tho? it could just be what she thinks. mortal perspective

[snow kiln]

'mortal' - older than queen

[slim belfry]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1399831978072739901/1495320295538692216/SPOILER_image.png?ex=69e679cc&is=69e5284c&hm=801020b193ce0aa7d3999bc1303e01b0980cec1e2b3a20f2197a612ccf0c9a00&

[zenith coral]

eh mortal mind

[snow kiln]

wynncraft true ending

[pine forum]

||The realm of war does not want to exist, I imagine after it has any reason to explode it will||

[snow kiln]

she's more reliable than that stupid tree that's for sure

[snow kiln]

but war still remains after the conflict has ended no?

it won't just disappear I don't think

[zenith coral]

see war is everpresent, the realms are just the biggest powersupplier. it will likely weken it by like 80% tho

[tepid blade]

yeah, likely

[gleaming apex]

Actually, an issue I'm seeing is that sealing the beasts is just kicking the can down the road isn't it. In a few thousand years, we'll be back where we started

[slim belfry]

I do think it'll disappear if you somehow completely stop the war

[zenith coral]

that guy prolly bought into orphions delusions/propaganda

[snow kiln]

exactamundo

[snow kiln]

yup, stupid tree, stupid elves smh

[zenith coral]

we gotta seal the beasts and then ram understanding of mortal concepts and morality down their throat

[pine forum]

We don't really have another option though at least now, best we can do is prepare people for it happening again

[snow kiln]

but some bad egg will show up eventually

[zenith coral]

would go along way tho

[tepid blade]

That's is why I think the ending should be us killing them or finding a way to seal them permanently

[snow kiln]

This can't just happen every thousand years

[zenith coral]

i meant teaching them morality

[stuck sinew]

regime change power vaccuums???

[snow kiln]

Wynncraft's characters ain't fantasy man 😭

they're all really grounded

you can't just erase immorality

[zenith coral]

i meant teaching the borderline eldritch horrors orphion and saphanis morality

[tepid blade]

They are by nature amoral conquerors with no real way to convince them other wise, they can't be taught morals

[snow kiln]

OHHHH

yeah gl

[gleaming apex]

What if we just take the portals and push them somewhere else. It's not our problem if they keep fighting on another planet somewhere

[zenith coral]

so we will force those lessons down their thorats while theyre sealed

[snow kiln]

send them into 8-3 disintegration loop

[drifting aurora]

lol

[zenith coral]

whats the wynn planets name

[snow kiln]

orph just found the cannon ending

[drifting aurora]

shrug

[slim belfry]

how about angering TCC so it ends up sending everything into the void

[drifting aurora]

now thats a plan

[zenith coral]

we need to have a setting name damnit. 'the world of wynn' isnt a thing

[snow kiln]

yes if there's no material realm

there's nothing to fight over

[slim belfry]

exactly

[snow kiln]

genius!

[drifting aurora]

yea i agree

[snow kiln]

I propose we call it Soosu's Big Feet planet

[pine forum]

I vote wherre

[snow kiln]

and everyone has to wear soosu's giant shoes

[cinder cedar]

but weren't the twins just beefing even before they found the material realm?

[pine forum]

Yes

[slim belfry]

yes lol

I was kidding

[drifting aurora]

i love realm beast morality discourse

[snow kiln]

well yeah but humans can't complain abou the war if we don't exist

[wary lantern]

The Stage /hj

[cinder cedar]

then we gotta do a double nuke and order a CAT canonball to both portals

[slim belfry]

TRUE

[snow kiln]

bit on the nose 😭

[zenith coral]

so was there lore that orphion and saphanis were once one thing or am i hallucinating

[wary lantern]

i mean fruma calls it that

thats why i said it lol

but yeah

[snow kiln]

wait what?

[wary lantern]

lil simple

[snow kiln]

not that I recall

[zenith coral]

cool metaphysical name, but noone names the planet that

[drifting aurora]

you might be remembering the old version of the light forest ultimate

[tepid blade]

the stage? I think it more allegorical than literal name for the planet

[slim belfry]

the huh

[drifting aurora]

i think that had some sort of implication

[wary lantern]

well the planet isnt named that thats just their name for the plane of influence i think

[zenith coral]

thats prolly it. that one made me think dern beast was a nicer guy than orphion

[drifting aurora]

doesnt matter cause its changed but yea

[slim belfry]

I like the twins interpretation

[zenith coral]

it also led to me thinking we were the kyurem to their zekrom and reshiram

[slim belfry]

lot of mirror imagery

[snow kiln]

I mean I think the ying/yang duality is kinda clearcut

[gleaming apex]

What if we just put the portals facing each other. Like you step out of one into the other? They can't get out since their portals just lead into the other's realm

[snow kiln]

both of them are 2 sides of the same coin

[zenith coral]

theyd make more portals

[snow kiln]

the portals aren't really a physical thing

its just a connection between the planes

[tepid blade]

They had portals before, but they got closed, and then reopened in 0 AP

[snow kiln]

And I highly doubt we could move them even if we wanted to

[snow kiln]

this is for the corruption portal

the light portal has been opened for ages

stupid elves

[zenith coral]

speaking of lore future ocean updates will likeley go into the war of the realms since thats where they prolly fought in the last big war

[snow kiln]

ocean updates 😭

[tepid blade]

well, that is when the two realms began to interact with each other again, also, which allowed for Anathema to escape into our reality

[pine forum]

It'd be nice to find lari in some form

[snow kiln]

lari is 2

source: trust me bro

[pine forum]

Huge if true

[zenith coral]

unironically given darkness is near wynn and light in gavel when they fought in the past they must have met in the ocean, we can likeley find some remnants there

[snow kiln]

I mean they're both hot masochists.

[drifting aurora]

???

[tepid blade]

I first thought that, but then I realized that would make no sense LMAO

[tepid blade]

??? Neither are masochists?

[snow kiln]

yea I think there's an SD about this but I don't know if we'll get any hard content about this apart from gateway island

[zenith coral]

orphion employs child labour?

[snow kiln]

not that you know

but trust me I know

[zenith coral]

hence why i said future ocean updates

[pine forum]

This is the lore explanation for why galleon's graveyard fills me with such hate

[zenith coral]

like when the war flares up again and their influences slowly expand over the map they would meet in the ocean

[tepid blade]

nooooo

[snow kiln]

Nah she's live

[zenith coral]

get on this btw ct in future updates have the influences slowly expand over the map

[snow kiln]

she'll be reconstructed for act 3

[pine forum]

SpringLari

[zenith coral]

shell be a hot fallen angel with eyes over her entire body

[snow kiln]

I don't want to manage terraria infection in wynn 😭

[brittle prism]

is wynncraft just terraria

red evil stuff

purple evil stuff

[snow kiln]

yes

and dryad is lari

[brittle prism]

and sunshine rainbow evil stuff

[snow kiln]

cause they're hot

[zenith coral]

so orphion is empress of light?

[snow kiln]

Eye of cthulu is just Eye

[zenith coral]

we are still in early game bois

[snow kiln]

Orphion is just like providence of EoL

[tepid blade]

But, in all seriousness, Lari is very much alive, because one it would make a bad story if she is killed off screen, and two, it is likely that Saphanis would find something to do with her if she was captured, or she could be just surviving Dern

[snow kiln]

Yeah and the final boss of wynn is just nameless deity

[zenith coral]

yeah she will be a horrible eldritch mutation we will have to emotionally mercykill. no fade to black

[slim belfry]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/262010576295821312/1245958946318188644/SPOILER_derncutscene.gif?ex=665aa531&is=665953b1&hm=7c7bbe242efd2612f17eac4fd91aa5c357492adc8ccf0ebba47c15a434d89135&

[tepid blade]

lmao, but a nameless diety like fight would be cool

[snow kiln]

Yeah we'll definitely see her corrupted and have to free her or possibly kill her ourselevs

[snow kiln]

o_O

what

[gleaming apex]

Lol

[snow kiln]

Why are we on Big E's private island with Bak'al lmfao. This is such a good fake its crazy.

[gleaming apex]

Funny

[tepid blade]

Well I don't think so, because that would feel like a repeat of Tasim's role in Fruma, so she is likely just being held captive if the dern beast captured her

[zenith coral]

it turns out saphanis was seeing that orphion got support for being a dog, so it tempts the player with fluffiness and fancy dern weapon and armor crates

[slim belfry]

thepurpleemerald gifs

[snow kiln]

give her bak'al's massive eyeball else its not accurate to dern beast's eye kink

[slim belfry]

[zenith coral]

imagine while corrupted she is based and incredibly competent and once we free her she goes right back to normal

[tepid blade]

"Dern, the Dern beast" is a wild name

[zenith coral]

nah have her have eyes over her entire body

[slim belfry]

it says dern the dark beast

[atomic hamlet]

My guess to Wynn’s ending will be us somehow merging Dern and the RoL together to force them into perpetual stalemate, before sealing them away

[tepid blade]

She is actually quite competent even normally, just unwilling to kill

[snow kiln]

let the realms talk it out over some tea, reopen the realms to find a new baby grey beast.

[snow kiln]

she ain't competent :|

we didn't play the same RoL

[zenith coral]

ik but i am expanding my agenda

https://giphy.com/gifs/one-piece-maki-zenin-agenda-2JvDiKoMSgneEWrQ0I

[heady rose]

is this a real leak or something

[snow kiln]

no lfmao

[tepid blade]

She one on one'd Bak'al

[heady rose]

oh ok

[slim belfry]

made by thepurpleemerald

[snow kiln]

well mentally competent

[zenith coral]

the same guy i featured in my fruma leak (it was just a plug to his stuff)

[snow kiln]

[slim belfry]

same person who made lari and ava media

[snow kiln]

media...?

[slim belfry]

it's funny

[tepid blade]

Also, does Lari canonically havepurple haired? because she has white hair in game?

[zenith coral]

make her hair dark purple with blue highlights, give her more eyes

[snow kiln]

who knows, we just have to wait for RoL rewrite with portraits

[tepid blade]

okay

[zenith coral]

anyways where are the anathema romance fics

[brittle prism]

like this

[fossil depot]

soo, the toxic wastes was formerly a creature

[brittle prism]

mr krabs eyes

[fossil depot]

what the fuck this thing even was to be that big

[zenith coral]

no put the eyes in the head not growing from it

[slim belfry]

I dont have the gifs on hand

[tepid blade]

is it the one that is the horse meme?

[slim belfry]

yea

[tepid blade]

okay, just wondering because I saw it before LOL

[zenith coral]

in return to linking me the fruma queen romance fics i shall link to you a fanfic of a fanfic of fruma

[snow kiln]

I'm pretty sure its still a creature

its like slime mold I believe

[atomic hamlet]

I really doubt Bob and Lari are going to be captive, there is absolutely no narrative purpose for a damsel in distress other than shock value

[snow kiln]

Well bob is dead

[atomic hamlet]

Same reason for why I don’t think they’ll be corrupted

[fossil depot]

ive heard about that, but what could it even be before it got transformed into slime mold

[whole river]

Bob is dead

[tepid blade]

Fair

[snow kiln]

but then what do you think happened to lari

[gleaming apex]

Lol

[fossil depot]

ngl

[atomic hamlet]

Where was it actually said that Bob is dead

[whole river]

They believe in the rumors

[snow kiln]

me <--

[whole river]

And don’t believe that right now Bob is putting belt to ass on the Dern residents

[fossil depot]

||i half expect bob to come back as another scion for darkness. Some roaring knight shit||

[snow kiln]

It doesn't make much sense from where we are in the lore to see bob being alive.

[atomic hamlet]

I’ll eat my Revolution if Bob is dead

[tepid blade]

She is alive and well, and I heard that someone give out a theory that her and Bob could be surviving together

[gleaming apex]

Bob is actually beating up ||Saphanis|| as we speak

[tepid blade]

that would be cool, and a cool boss fight

[atomic hamlet]

It absolutely makes sense, we need a guide to help us navigate Dern and guess who’s been in it for ages

[pine forum]

Salted just dmed me that bob is two btw

[snow kiln]

I mean yeah Bob could be saphanis' trump card that we still don't know of

[whole river]

I really wanna know bakal’s strategy of having not one, but two people who can kick his ass there with him

[brittle prism]

i think bob is dead

[whole river]

Autocorrect even thinks he’s a fraud

[atomic hamlet]

Why would Bob be corrupted though apart from shock value

[brittle prism]

it's a double red herring

[atomic hamlet]

Literally no purpose whatsoever for this

[whole river]

Wouldn’t it be a triple red herring?

[snow kiln]

He's been in there for hundreds of years

[brittle prism]

boss battle

[snow kiln]

well like a hundred?

[whole river]

Bob has like two fake death moments

[tepid blade]

Okay, but question, how would Bak'al feel about Bob being his work partner if Bob does work for Saphanis?

[gleaming apex]

Bob and Lari do the fusion dance to beat ||Saphanis||, but they end up weaker because Lari is such a bum

[zenith coral]

thats not a nice place ment for eyes, and too symmetrical too. put one in the neck, and one on her cheek

[tepid blade]

only like 20 years actually, according the wiki

[brittle prism]

shush

[whole river]

Lari highkey beats anyone we know of that isn’t a straight god tbh

[snow kiln]

I think Bak'al will do whatever it takes to be on the 'winning' side

[fossil depot]

||like in the beginning of the dern questline some deadly creature beyond everything we see ambushes the dern party (tasim, us, two and whatever) and almost kills everyone, and it kind of becomes a secondary antagonist thats later revealed to be bob, warped into saphanis's strongest weapon||

[atomic hamlet]

We need a few things in Dern including some sort of inside knowledge to actually ensure we make it through alive and also a reason for there to be settlements

[snow kiln]

his greed would rather bob be an ally then an enemy

[tepid blade]

true

[whole river]

Then again that’s cuz most recruits are bums

[slim belfry]

crazy if it happens

[snow kiln]

2 betray arc coming to wynncraft servers near you in 2028

[slim belfry]

||potential bob and bak'al enemies to lovers||

[tepid blade]

If we do get another Bob boss battle, I want his mastery of the 4 original classes to be portrayed better than the reincarnation, have him switch up his weapons in-between attacks instead of one per phase

[snow kiln]

The CT team is 100% capable of this now

[zenith coral]

ofc the dern arc will have to kill off well established characters that dont only exist only to be killed off.

[snow kiln]

I think they'd pull it off incredibly if a bob fight appeared now

[tough axle]

do we have an estimated time line for the wastelands/buttefly effect?

[tepid blade]

no 🙂

[fossil depot]

nah

[snow kiln]

neit

[atomic hamlet]

The thing about Bob is that he’s a character that has little depth to him due to being completely absent in person from the storyline so far

[snow kiln]

I think let them cook though, cause wasteslands will no doubt be massive lore

[brittle prism]

Is this Sui's long lost ancestor?

[fossil depot]

||idk, warped!bob swoons the entire party in the first encounter and lari appears trying to ward him off||

[atomic hamlet]

And if we just got him as a edgy corrupted enemy, it wouldn’t add anything

[tepid blade]

I would guess between two to three years if I'm being generous for the next story update

[snow kiln]

Also what is this butterfly effect thing, is that just epilogue quest?

[zenith coral]

sovereign two is busy making a path that would lead the players to 100% siding with... them? her? him? idk

[atomic hamlet]

I’d rather interact with and see him as an actual person

[fossil depot]

salted said a year for the wastelands

[tepid blade]

That would be the next big story update

[fossil depot]

soo nah, not 3 years

[tepid blade]

Well like for Dern and that stuff

[fossil depot]

oh

3 years is too little for dern

i expect 5 LMAO

[snow kiln]

Oh so we're not getting any epilogue content then?

[zenith coral]

unironically i think bob has a better chance to survive in dern cuz he doesnt have any of the influences, hes just a abnormally strong 'human'. lari releis on light powers, which cant go well in dern

[tepid blade]

We probably are, but like for Dern and stuff is what I talked about

[snow kiln]

Man I just want to visit the soosu mansion and see yusanu and soosu figuring out how to revert what they've done. Z trying to make up for his family's mistakes, etc.

[fossil depot]

Lari brainwash arc

[zenith coral]

basically guaranteed in my opinion

[snow kiln]

I think the way the story ends leaves the morality of the sovn. up in the air

[tepid blade]

Like I said earlier, it would feel a but cheap as we already had something like this with Tasim

[atomic hamlet]

I see Bob as this worn-down grizzled ranger that has become a master of surviving this completely hostile environment and Lari as his newly-saved companion that’s adapting slowly to the realm

[fossil depot]

tasim wasn't brainwashed

[snow kiln]

well tasim wasn't brainwashed

[fossil depot]

he did it own his own

[zenith coral]

prolly fairly utilitarian. her morals could be skewed from her perspective

[atomic hamlet]

Lari is not getting brainwashed

[tepid blade]

Similar, not the same

[snow kiln]

he wholeheartadly believed he as doing the right thing

[snow kiln]

no?

[atomic hamlet]

She’s 100% going to be the one that ultimately deals with Orphion

[heady rose]

tasim is just the biggest bum ever

[tepid blade]

we still fought an ally who was sided with the main villian

[fossil depot]

also the inevitable orphion rematch

[brittle prism]

tasim is the lari of fruma

[snow kiln]

but queen isn't a villain the same way dern beast is.

[heady rose]

i forgive lari after finishing fruma because of tasim

[snow kiln]

its easy to see how tasim sided with her

[slim belfry]

I forgive both

[atomic hamlet]

I think we have to recognize that Lari’s arc is done, we have dealt with it, and just turning her evil undoes all that writing, no matter how good it necessarily might be

[zenith coral]

hell if i had known the full extent of her plan id prolly side with her too

[slim belfry]

I just want them to help in dern

[snow kiln]

well we have to see her again

[zenith coral]

it just seems like the big obvious option

[fossil depot]

soo lari's just gonna be dead in dern

[tepid blade]

True, but we in essence of the story, it would be the same, trying to bring back an ally who sided with the antagonist, willingly of not

[atomic hamlet]

I mean, even Two indirectly assumes Lari will be alive

[snow kiln]

so its either she's:

• dead
• alive with dern beast
• alive but somehow survived in dern all alone

[zenith coral]

i mean we will prolly see her again, but everything else is up in the air

[atomic hamlet]

Nothing is confirmed but a lot of things would make sense

[zenith coral]

like she could have suffered a full on identity death and is now a eldritch horror

[snow kiln]

Dude we seriously need a RoL rewrite

[tepid blade]

Dead is the least likely option because we have a term for killing an important character off screen and its called "Fridging" and it is a bad trope

[snow kiln]

I have little emotional attachment to lari

[atomic hamlet]

I’m betting a lot on Bob, Lari, Tasim, Sui, and Two being our Dern Team

[snow kiln]

the same way I had to the fruma gang

if lari is alived but we had to save her

[atomic hamlet]

Yeah exactly

[snow kiln]

I'm not compelled to

[fossil depot]

yeah killing lari off is a bad idea

[atomic hamlet]

And turning them evil is an even more egregious example of this

[zenith coral]

id say a number of quests could have their dialogue reworked

[heady rose]

they should retcon it so tasim gets sacrificed instead of aledar

[fossil depot]

Bob returning as a darth vader esque figure is not that bad

[snow kiln]

yeah I just replayed through Dwarves and Doguns the other day, Yeesh.

[atomic hamlet]

It is that bad actually

[snow kiln]

no?

it'd be dope as hell

seeing wynn's protector corrupt

[atomic hamlet]

It denigrates Ba’kal’s whole purpose of existing

[snow kiln]

that would be a good arc for bak'al

[zenith coral]

the shape of this matters ig. like she could have suffered an insane magic rejection because she uses light in the dern realm

[fossil depot]

Though idk how you will implement ba'kal with warped bob

[snow kiln]

he's had no purpose since akias

[atomic hamlet]

Ba’kal is in dire need of being developed

[tepid blade]

I will disagree partially on this, but I do not think they will make Lari bad, but Fallen Hero Bob (Evil Bob) would be cool in my opinion

[tepid blade]

true, he does need it

[zenith coral]

defeniteley

[slim belfry]

killing that random farmer

[fossil depot]

isn't ba'kal supposed to be pictured as unbeatable for now

[snow kiln]

oh how the mighty have fallen

[vapid path]

Even moth queen gives no shits about bakal lol

[zenith coral]

its one thing for lari to be bad, its another thing for her to have metamorphosized due to various reasons

[snow kiln]

he just hasn't fought again cause he wants akias to be the last thing he leaves on making him look unbeatable cause he's a fat egotist. /s

😄

[fossil depot]

no but like legit

[zenith coral]

at our current powerlevel we could prolly deal with him

[atomic hamlet]

Ba’kal right now is being foreshadowed to do everything Edgelord Bob will do here

[fossil depot]

i remember someone discussing about how thats what he's supposed to be pictured for now

[atomic hamlet]

The Queen says explicitly that Ba’kal is way more of a threat than he seems

[snow kiln]

well then we have a loose end that is bob

[atomic hamlet]

And that we need to kill him

[snow kiln]

No way bob would've let Bak'al go unchecked

[atomic hamlet]

The loose end will be alive and there to help us

[uneven basin]

On the contrary she gives a lot she just doesn't show it

[vapid path]

Tsundere moth

Flys away from the light instead

[atomic hamlet]

Well, Bob also probably has to stay in some form of hiding to survive Dern

[fossil depot]

bak'al is supposed to be the big evil guy who's indestructible, buuuut that bastard got beaten by lari and bob

[uneven basin]

Post raid dialogue give more of a bitter ex vibe lmao

[zenith coral]

draw the fruma queen pouting at bak'al

[snow kiln]

If bro could take peak Bak'al what could he not take in dern?

Imagine if we land in dern and its just a graveyard

[tepid blade]

Bak'al could still be given things to do even with an evil Bob, make him a threat that builds up slowly in the background, plotting on our downfall, while Bob remains up front about it

[snow kiln]

of dernic creatures

[fossil depot]

why a graveyard tho

[snow kiln]

bloodied battleground more like

[zenith coral]

the entire realm?

[atomic hamlet]

Ba’kal plus a million That Wroughts Flesh that Saphanis can just throw at him the moment he’s in his sight

[fossil depot]

ah

bob slaughtered them all

[vapid path]

Oh does she talk about bakal there?

[snow kiln]

well.

[snow kiln]

yup

[zenith coral]

maybe bob is just stunlocked between voidholes in a portal-esque formation

[fossil depot]

bob rizzed a fucking goddess and yet managed to fumble it

[uneven basin]

She does ! I'd rather not spoil too much haha

[atomic hamlet]

Ba’kal really, really needs to not be kept in the background

[snow kiln]

bak'al was the person that made a means for her to come to the material

also wait

[tepid blade]

yes, ||Bak'al was her original Scion who left her to join Saphanis (the dern beast)||

[zenith coral]

yeah he was her ex

[vapid path]

Damn I’ll have to reexplore that dialogue tree, I just got the health potion stuff lol

[snow kiln]

if Bak'al knows how to bring the beasts to the material

[atomic hamlet]

He was such a flat character for the longest time and gets exactly 1 appearance

[snow kiln]

what's stopping him from bringing sephanis to us?

[fossil depot]

ngl

now i want to draw roaring bob

[snow kiln]

oh there's so much post raid dialogue

[zenith coral]

he doesnt wanna

[atomic hamlet]

Him not playing a major direct role would just make it so much worse

[fossil depot]

saphanis doesnt want to be in the physical plane

it wants to conquer it

[snow kiln]

or what if dern beast is in the room with us xD

[zenith coral]

like the queen laughing at sephanis and orphion cuz their apparentley fucked

[tepid blade]

I mean in the idea that he is letting his enemies beat each other down first before going in for the "kill", more plotting, exploiting the weak is in character for him

[snow kiln]

I do wonder what she knows that we don't

[zenith coral]

i shall now link the thing you all want

[fossil depot]

what the fuck

[snow kiln]

I'm not gonna open this at work rn 💀

[zenith coral]

like i said maybe we are the kyurem to sephanis and orphion

[atomic hamlet]

I mean, sure, but there’s not really much of a reason to play the long game in Dern as the entire realm is on your side and you’d have the tactical advantage

[snow kiln]

we as in player?

[atomic hamlet]

It’s better to go for them immediately before they start causing actual damage

[zenith coral]

i didnt read it either but theres apparentley some insane lines in there

[fossil depot]

mods seal his asscrack with cement

[zenith coral]

https://tenor.com/view/deltarune-plue-friend-inside-me-steve-gaster-gif-15019615222994035890

cuz no one is typing i am gonna assume you all are reading it with fervent interest btw

[brittle prism]

pardon

[winged narwhal]

When are they finally implementing the Bak’al romance path

[zenith coral]

they did already

the queen did it

[snow kiln]

God I regret reading this

[winged narwhal]

Could be her kid

[zenith coral]

like i said i would link a fanfic of a fanfic of fruma

[fossil depot]

BRO RIZZED ANATHEMA 😭

how

[zenith coral]

she also didnt have a human form at the time

insane game

[snow kiln]

wait she had 2 scions before fruma?

[brittle prism]

i think the other was two

[zenith coral]

well when two joined and when fruma was formed is up in the air

but she had 1 before

[snow kiln]

I suppose cause she is number two to thw queen

[zenith coral]

nah i think she sees her as her daughter or smth

[snow kiln]

man this really does make me feel bad for queen

she really had good intentions :\

[slim belfry]

risky click of the day

[zenith coral]

its funny cuz if she explained her plan to us i would have joined. in retrospect she seems like a clear-cut answer for the war of the realms

[atomic hamlet]

The Queen, her evil ex, her untrustworthy new girlfriend, and her six either completely insane or rebellious children

[snow kiln]

yes but two couldn't trust us

which I do wonder if queen would've died if we were on her side 🤔

[zenith coral]

please with her abilities i dont think she trusted much of anyone

[vapid path]

She gives me qira vibes

[snow kiln]

well she did trust tasim

[vapid path]

Except you know, qira’s servents seem like voluntary lol

[zenith coral]

did two trust tasim? i dont think so

[vapid path]

While queen is larping as Stalin

[snow kiln]

more than player

[zenith coral]

her creations likeley arent voluntary, her servants are a bit up in the air

[slim belfry]

oh boy qira servant discourse

[snow kiln]

The soverigns weren't really given a choice to become soverign and they can't leave.

[vapid path]

Hah I get what you’re putting down there

[zenith coral]

well we are just inherentley unpredictable and the queen is a control freak. she would have never chosen us

[zenith coral]

you sure? i didnt get that vibe

[snow kiln]

Soosu?

her diary?

[slim belfry]

Soosu chose to be sov but regretted it later

[vapid path]

I mean insofar as “we live in a society”

[snow kiln]

she was groomed to want to be a sovn.

[zenith coral]

yep

[snow kiln]

her parents and uncle and society forced her to

[vapid path]

And society is being puppeteerd by an immortal god queen lol

[snow kiln]

she wanted to just play with her friend

[zenith coral]

the ´queen being uncompromising likeley did her in most of all.

[vapid path]

It’s fitting, the chaos god is a control freak lol

It’s interesting characterization

[snow kiln]

yeah of course, the queen wanted to keep her alive to get fruma modernised

[brittle prism]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1193675254120321144/1383193091984592896/RDT_20250613_1415034370544081597694688.gif

[snow kiln]

what is up with the deltarune today

[zenith coral]

speaking of bak'al you all think he fell in love with the queens inhuman form (hes a freak) and when the queen took on a more 'human form' (which now that i think of it suspiciously looks like bak'al, likeley cuz he was her only reference in creating a human body) he left her

[atomic hamlet]

I refer to my Queen is the Emperor of Mankind but Actually Surprisingly Better Written comparison

[snow kiln]

no

[slim belfry]

she was still in contact with her friend even after being sovereign and wanted to work on inventing even beforehand

[snow kiln]

bak'al wanted to use her for his own gain

he never loved her

[zenith coral]

i meant it more that she seemed very resistant to any kind of change

[brittle prism]

i dont think their relationship was romantic like on either side

think abt it

[zenith coral]

ik it was more a fun thought (her basing her human form on bak'al is pretty likeley tho)

[snow kiln]

yes but she couldn't play with her friend because the queen gave her projects to do, she eventually got tired to doing these projects, when she had free time and wanted to play with her friend she found out she was dead.

I mean her slip into insanity in the diary makes this clear cut.

[brittle prism]

true

she's a ginger

[slim belfry]

the last few instances of her family and friends before mentioning their deaths talked about how she viewed everything
it's not because of her work

[zenith coral]

i also think the queen thought everyone being more 'inhuman' was a good thing. see that one syndra 'trial' for example

or soosu and her 'sight'

[slim belfry]

she could've made some effort but her view of everyone changed

it's why she's so negligent now because she only saw people as matter ever since she got her blessing

[zenith coral]

well she had the mentality of a child

[snow kiln]

well she didn't feel anything for her parent's death likely as a result of being a scion of war, its her unfeelingness that drives her insane.

[brittle prism]

Is Santa a realm beast?

[zenith coral]

santa is more of a mage's guild

[snow kiln]

He's a war criminal

I saw a fan theory here

where santa was the one that froze the ice islands

which is hilarious

[zenith coral]

its an organization of multiple santas btw

[brittle prism]

isn't there a santa prime though?

like there's nick

and there's santa

[zenith coral]

what did you think?

[zenith coral]

no idea

[slim belfry]

I am NOT reading that

I'm not the target audience

[brittle prism]

this is some peak https://archiveofourown.org/works/80144751

[zenith coral]

in that case you skipped so you have to recommended it to two of your friends

[snow kiln]

everyones the target audience of a good ao3 post

[slim belfry]

😭

[snow kiln]

or what, friend will get me?

[brittle prism]

im not biased

[zenith coral]

https://tenor.com/view/friend-inside-me-toy-story-woody-toby-fox-deltarune-gif-10854415607838465300

[brittle prism]

https://tenor.com/view/deltarune-friend-cat-image-friend-gif-16014775164715111297

[zenith coral]

i will make you post excerpts of it instead

[hybrid gazelle]

Oh archieve of our own

That remind me h Therr some fic I gotta read as some point

I gotta finish the hive Drabble

And maybe try to get into requiem

But goddd am I that bad reader

[zenith coral]

from the peak fic i recommended;
"Gikyo, I have to tell you something," Majin said, voice heavy and earthy, "I have fantasized about deflowering you for several fortnights, and I seek to do it today. Let me sheathe my sword!"

[slim belfry]

dude

say less

[zenith coral]

i knew you liked it

[snow kiln]

I'm an advocate for freedom of speech on the internet, buuut I think you and the person who wrote that on ao3 should have their free speech license revoked

[azure tangle]

no he means like stop talking

that type of say less

[snow kiln]

Nobody uses say less like that

[teal temple]

https://tenor.com/view/wot-wtf-wut-what-girl-gif-15824407

[zenith coral]

its rude to assume 😝

[split night]

I'm a person who adore chaos and freedom
I have read worse, this doesn't bother me

[slim belfry]

^

[slim belfry]

smh I said I'm not target audience

[split night]

that's a weird ship
even weirder than Orphion x Saphanis

[snow kiln]

Orphion and sephanis is a natural ship

[slim belfry]

majin and gikyo I can see happen

[zenith coral]

well pre rewritten ultimate light forest had saphanis taunting orphion about wanting to become one with him again

😳

[brittle prism]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/262010576295821312/1245958946318188644/SPOILER_derncutscene.gif

[slim belfry]

post rewritten you can still see it as flirty taunts

[elfin oak]

huh

[brittle prism]

I sure love Dern the Beast of Dern

My favorite character

[snow kiln]

Who decided that dern beast would be birb

[elfin oak]

DERN NEXT WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

screw wastelands

[split night]

should we loosen the spoiler
it has been a week surely everyone already experience frumer

[slim belfry]

trashie design

[split night]

@hybrid gazelle

[snow kiln]

Genius

[zenith coral]

actually i hc that the arcanist is our dark related class due to the eyes that come out of their ultimate

[hybrid gazelle]

Not me

It’s another person idea

[snow kiln]

Egads shock

[tepid blade]

oh, who? if your willing to share

[hybrid gazelle]

Six

[snow kiln]

Six?

[zenith coral]

and with all the eye imagery we can safeley assume that saphanis at minimum will have looooooooots of eyes

[split night]

I like owl Saphanis, car Saphanis feel good to

[brittle prism]

i think they just have 2

[slim belfry]

oh I thought you made bird design

dang

[brittle prism]

it would be funny

[zenith coral]

laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame

[hybrid gazelle]

Yoh guys know that eyes motif are common theme of influences rights?

[snow kiln]

Yeah I think this as well

[split night]

I think the eyes are suppose to represent that it is always watching i think

[brittle prism]

What if Saphanis only had 1 eye and we killed it?

[hybrid gazelle]

It not exclusive to Dern

[split night]

yeah

[snow kiln]

Yes rol mobs have no eyes and dern mobs are all eyes

Very ultrakill we know

[zenith coral]

yeah like i want an eldritch monstrosity as saphanis. lots of eyes, lots of limbs

[tepid blade]

I usually imagine it has a giant bug (either a centipede or a beetle) covered in eyes,

[brittle prism]

Catholics are Anathema

[snow kiln]

I just want anotber baddie chat 😭

[split night]

I like it
the blinding surely have no eye
the dark require more eyes to see

[slim belfry]

Fruma:
-Wynn Community

[brittle prism]

one big eye

[zenith coral]

sadly that motif is taken by anathema (when i first heard that name i thought she was inspired by big e of 40k lol)

[split night]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1167848346485006459/1394255128696979568/togif.gif

[snow kiln]

Oh dang that is quite logical

[slim belfry]

where did this come from 😭

[snow kiln]

Oh

[atomic hamlet]

(She is very close thematically to big E of 40K to be fair)

[zenith coral]

this is a spy for saphanis problem solved

[atomic hamlet]

(Fascist with good intentions trope)

[snow kiln]

I was just thinking about the mobs we see in the 2 mirror world rip

[slim belfry]

oh athanatic

https://wynncraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Athanasia

[zenith coral]

also the whole evil higher powers thing

[hybrid gazelle]

Even corruption has eyes motif

[brittle prism]

never mind

Protestants are Anathema

[atomic hamlet]

Yeah they both (almost in one case) lose it eventually and ascend into incredibly destructive deities

[hybrid gazelle]

Eye overall are common theme between the realms

And not just exclusive to Dern

[atomic hamlet]

Centipede Dern Beast is my new favorite

[snow kiln]

I didnt realises CT added biblically accurate angel to raid

Shows how much I play rol

[zenith coral]

except big e will never lose it cuz gw has apparentley put 40k into stasis timewise (im not a big fan bug i occassionaly read fics bout it)

[snow kiln]

Actually this is a good point

[slim belfry]

oh my gosh

[snow kiln]

Orphion and saphanis are made up names

Anathema is just a word

[atomic hamlet]

He has actually, he became a real chaos god for approximately a day during the Siege

But I’m not talking about 40K here

[brittle prism]

its like naming your daughter "i hate you"

[snow kiln]

If only bakal weren't a shellfish bastard

[zenith coral]

this but inironically i think he liked her as a monster more

[brittle prism]

😔

[split night]

he betrayed beast of war because beast of war want no war in fruma

[snow kiln]

Did she name herself, who named her, who named any of the beasts, are they just edgy?

[zenith coral]

i think she names herself this after her greatest accomplishment; breaking free of her nature

[slim belfry]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1399831978072739901/1493189246775857162/corruption.png?ex=69e6a21a&is=69e5509a&hm=d324d2265986dd89aacd04310ab7180659279948e93c3be25962de5ede55454f&

[tepid blade]

yes

[slim belfry]

@brittle prism

[brittle prism]

Oh does she just have beef with that one guy

[hybrid gazelle]

Grookwart rrwrite someday man

[split night]

we had a name drop of her all these time??

[hybrid gazelle]

Oh nvm wrong reply

[brittle prism]

not really

[snow kiln]

Wait didn't they rewrite this quest in fruma?

[brittle prism]

Anathema just means something intensely disliked

[hybrid gazelle]

Because

They don’t have the time

To rrwrite the quest in fruma

Because all the work

Is put into

Fruma

[zenith coral]

oh really i thought it was like something going against its own nature (i am bad at explaining)

[snow kiln]

I swear elemental exercise was just reworked tho

[hybrid gazelle]

Becuase that way back in lootrun

[brittle prism]

Many protestant beliefs were condemned as Anathema in the Council of Trent held by the Catholic Church during the reformation