i don't think refuelling adds value to F1
#f1-technical
smoky trout
yup
short ether
it's safer to refuel with Biofuels too
short ether
Yes, but their burning characteristics is different
Of course it depends on the mix but...
Petrol has a propensity to be like a backdraft when lit
smoky trout
even if they use bio fuel, they might add a certain amount of alcohol to it.
So...
I don't know much more about this
short ether
... Alcohols are Biofuels bruh
smoky trout
I knew something was off about what I said
short ether
lol
Unless you meant making synthetically derived, or regenerated Petrol from Plastic breakdown, which... Is just Petrol again
smoky trout
Oh
I meant that they might add something to the alcohol to make it more combustible.
crimson granite
why would you want to add alcohol to biofuels
Biofuels are already highly combustible
short ether
wow this chat is cursed rn
smoky trout
smoky trout
why would you want to add alcohol to biofuels
more power.
short ether
Right, two facts:
- Alcohols are... Inherently biofuels. You make them by fermenting natural material
- Alcohols tend to burn quite rich due to oxygen content in their chain, and also their energy density isn't huge
crimson granite
Alcohols hardly help in combustion
short ether
But they tend to make this up with just raw Octane levels
crimson granite
it doesnt burn quickly
short ether
thanks skippez
Correct, Alcohols burn more controlled
Which is beneficial in alot of cases
crimson granite
higher octane levels decreases the quick burning
short ether
Yeah you... Don't want it detonating chief
crimson granite
what alcohol would they use?Butanol?
short ether
Also that's not really the kinda relation, but there's a reason there's always a maximum Octane rating for rules, not minimum ones
I'm really into IsoButanol, yeah
crimson granite
wait whats better then, Butanol or Ethanol?
short ether
But something interesting is with first tests, FIA tried out a mix of Ethanol and Toluene, and Toluene is the RoCkEt FuEl used by TAG-Porsche McLaren in the 80's
I'd say Butanol
Octane's a tad lower, depends on the type
Energy density is higher, stoichiometric is leaner as it's a longer chain, not nearly as corrosive
If at all
crimson granite
Ahh Butanol can be completely blended in any concentration of gasoline
short ether
My mix would Ideally be IsoButanol, Toluene and IsoOctane
Which fun fact: F1 already uses IsoOctane derived from IsoButanol
crimson granite
But isnt Propanol like the best?
short ether
Or Total did
crimson granite
cause they use isopropyl in rocket fuel
hence I'm assuming its far more efficient
short ether
Hmm, Isopropyl seems to have an energy density a tad lower than IsoBut... Physical density is fair, idk how to find Octane or Stoich dow
Oh wow 120, ding dang
short ether
120RON
It comes from a Patent by ExxonMobil to use Isopropyl in Gasoline/Petrol blends
short ether
Oh crikey the patent is from 1955
short ether
Why?
short ether
Ethanol depending on who you ask has an Octane anywhere from 108.6-114-127
short ether
Methanol 108.7-114-135
crimson granite
I see
short ether
IsoButanol the only figure I have is 113, which is rather noice
crimson granite
you heard of VP101?
short ether
Yeah pump fuel Octane doesn't usually surpass 100ron because you're dealing with racing fuels
crimson granite
just found out about it
short ether
And sometimes for the road it's... Not so useful
crimson granite
Its Octane is 114
short ether
What's it's mix?
crimson granite
Yea
short ether
Actually leading to a fairly basic advantage of Alcohols and whatnot
The mixes are usually very raw
crimson granite
You don't put pure alcohol as fuel do you
short ether
You can
It depends what you want
Indy ran on Pure Methanol from 1965 to the mid 2000's
Okay you can't have 100% pure Ethanol or Methanol because of their unstoppable want to absorb water, but
It's more like 96-93% unless you add something to denature it to make it 99%
short ether
Petrol and whatnot is made up of a ton of different constituents, whereas when you deal with Biofuels, you make the raw stuff to blend in, so it can be more consistent
crimson granite
Yea that makes sense
supple dragon
Hey guys what do they mean by chassis exchange? Between lewis and bottas? any info? thank you!
abstract pawn
I mean you kind of answered it yourself
short ether
It means they swap tubs
abstract pawn
Lewis and Valtteri swapped chassis
supple dragon
nah how does it work? swap cars?
abstract pawn
So Lewis is using Valtteri's chassis and Valtteri is using Lewis' chassis
short ether
Like the Monocoque chassis
supple dragon
i dont get it
supple dragon
yeah
short ether
abstract pawn
Lewis is now using Valtteri's chassis for this weekend
short ether
They swap this bit
abstract pawn
And Valtteri is using Lewis' chassis
short ether
Plus maybe the engine and gearbox
supple dragon
But how does this effect performance
abstract pawn
Chassis can crack or whatever without anyone noticing and then have an affect on performance
I think that happened for Vettel at Ferrari last year that he was struggling for performance
short ether
Even tho these cars are produced very precise, one chassis will just seem to suit, or be faster to another driver
abstract pawn
And then they changed his chassis and his performance and car feel improved
short ether
This cuassis thing is alot more significant in Indy when sometimes you can just have SCS - Slow Car Syndrome
Where the same setup on a different chassis made to what appears to be identical specification seems to breed two different handling and performing cars for, in this case, Indy
short ether
So what I assume the hypothesis is
Mercedes feel the chassis characteristics of either car are suited to the other driver than the one they're allocated to
So they're swapping to see if it improves performance on one or both
slate basin
(btw Bottas getting Lewis's chassis was always planned it is not a case of Valterri asking)
urban compass
no also its explosive as well
distant needle
crimson granite
i think electrolytes
short ether
how do they drink
crimson granite
through a tube
soft shadow
spiral fog
That’s so interesting, now I wanna try it lol.
short ether
It's usually very warm
tacit bridge
They have to drink it right
soft shadow
Depends on their thirst given that they lose 2-3 pounds of body fluids per race
dusk mist
Has anyone heard any specifics about Merc complaining about Red Bull pit stops? I can only find the articles about Marko talking about it, but nothing on what Merc might actually be complaining about?
crimson granite
Nobody is complaining about their pitstops
dusk mist
crimson granite
i dont see where Merc accused Red Bull about their pitstops
near ether
Yeah lol
dusk mist
Yes, my mistake it indicates equipment. So has anyone heard any more on that?
near ether
am I missing the shit stirring
dusk mist
@near ether you think Marko is just causing noise?
abstract pawn
One of the Swedish commentators said that he has heard from other journalists and people in the paddock that some teams are really doing something really sketchy with the tires, where some teams are basically having a "controlled puncture" to let air out of the tire to make the pressures go down below the minimum tire pressures.
Anyone have any idea how this would work, or if there is any truth to it?
spiral fog
It's usually very warm
Hmmm, not sure how great that would taste while sweating in a hot car lol
spiral fog
anyone have any info about that glowy painnt they put on the car sometimes to look at aerodynamics? i forget what it's officially called
reef pine
FlowVis?
spiral fog
yes, ty
short ether
anyone have any info about that glowy painnt they put on the car sometimes to lo...
FlowVis is just short for AirFlow Visualisation. It's basically a flourescent dye put in some sort of solvent or Oil, that's then generously sprayed onto leading edges of aero components. As the car runs, that fluid is dragged back, and as the fluid evaporates, the dye stays behind, and marks how the airflow behaves on the wing surface
spiral fog
FlowVis is just short for AirFlow Visualisation. It's basically a flourescent dy...
ty!
short ether
Here you can see not only the flow vis showing clean airflow, but also separated airflow
On that top wing plane it gets a tad globby
spiral fog
do they just wipe it off with a rag later?
short ether
Yeah, or spray some other fluid on it like soapy water or something then wipe it of
Well... Maybe
Some I assume they might send back with the dye on it to show it fully to aero geezers
abstract pawn
They usually take photos of it
spiral fog
right i was asking abt later bc obvi the flow vis doesnt stay on forever lol
pulsar kelp
james hunt: hold my warm beer
I appreciate that attention to detail
short ether
Anyone have any idea how this would work, or if there is any truth to it?
Bro that's wavy. I'd assume you'd make a hole in the tyre that's very tiny at a high pressure so when the tyre deflates it seals back up
Like the opposite of making a hole and stretching the surface the hole's in
spiral fog
Not sure if anyone saw this but it’s about the Baku pirelli tyre disaster https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/12333511/pirelli-reveals-cause-of-azerbaijan-gp-high-speed-tyre-blowouts-for-max-verstappen-lance-stroll
dawn kernel
why did the 2014 ferrari sound like it was in a tunnel
the 2014 merc was growly because of log exhaust iirc
grand silo
Some I assume they might send back with the dye on it to show it fully to aero g...
They just take photos
short ether
Right
violet smelt
mighty furnace
I have to say these 2022 cars are very aesthetically pleasing. Reminds me of the 2009 Brawn car compared to the old 2008 cars.
short ether
Except the 2008 cars were chaotically Elegant and the 2009 were chodemobiles that were weirdly anorexic in presentation
mighty furnace
I don't have my years mixed up do I? Brawn was 2009 right?
short ether
Correct
I'm just... Staunchly against the regs from 2009 onward, bar 2017's changes from 2016
mighty furnace
Yeah ok
I always thought that the 2008 cars looked like something a 9 year old would draw with all that bodykit stuff. They were fast but ugly as Fuck. Then Brawn came along with that simple, smooth design. It was truly elegant
mighty furnace
I was 9 at the time and not following F1 that closely so I didn't have that period where the chaotic looking bodykits were cool
Simple and smooth looking design has always been the way to go for me. It has a maturity to it.
short ether
Oh I can appreciate smooth lines
But... it can be as smooth as you want. If it looks disproportionate, it does regardless
mighty furnace
Yeah that's fair. I get what you mean
short ether
I just love this style of chaos aero as it looks like they moulded the body bits after watching how rain peels off of it
Which... Rain makes cars 4% sexier, at leasrt
mighty furnace
Not for the drivers I imagine 😂
short ether
W- WELL MAYBE
short ether
NO
gaunt shoal
Not sure if anyone saw this but it’s about the Baku pirelli tyre disaster https:...
ikr
mortal geyser
what if we 😳
yes chibi car
mortal geyser
what if we 😳
makee them wheels bigger and put them in mclaren tooned
fringe sun
why do the slicks from those time look so weird
green marlin
What kind of education does the car designers have? Also what kind of education does the engine guys have?
daring sigil
some sort of stem degree prolly
"Newey gained a first class honours degree in Aeronautics and Astronautics from the University of Southampton in 1980. Immediately after graduation he began working in motorsport for the Fittipaldi Formula One team under Harvey Postlethwaite."
"What qualifications do you need to be a motorsport engineer? Entry requirements: You'll usually need to complete a university degree or a degree apprenticeship. At university you could study an Engineering Foundation degree, Higher National Diploma (HND) or relevant Engineering degree."
granite tundra
as a rule of thumb, the 'average' technical background will be a B/MSc or B/MEng degree in something like mechanical, automotive, aerospace engineering etc.
zenith pumice
Just to be clear, meng is mechanical engineering?
zenith pumice
Ye i see
copper mason
granite tundra
there will be outliers on either end of that, a few people with PhDs or no degree at all
raw nest
But Spielberg is less downforce no? Almost everything full throttle
daring sigil
yeah
zenith pumice
It’s a fast track
raw nest
It is but with much downforce it's not much faster
daring sigil
most of the turns are highspeed
raw nest
In the game you run 2-4 1-3 wings something like that. The thing there with level 4 would let you run 7-9 something like that and that's not fast i can tell you
Full throttle 79%
That says racefans but f1 says 65
Well that's data from 2016
granite tundra
why are you comparing the f1 game to pirelli's press docket?
spielberg's altitude also dictates the wing you run more than the average circuit
granite tundra
that's not even in this server, why are you posting it in f1-technical?
zenith pumice
Seriously man
green marlin
"What qualifications do you need to be a motorsport engineer? Entry requirements...
So basically any sort of masters that is relevant to the position I am applying for is good enough? Isn't it anything about where you take your studies too?
granite tundra
the degree frankly isn't going to be the single deciding factor
your relevant experience will be just as important when applying
grand silo
But Spielberg is less downforce no? Almost everything full throttle
But t6,7,9 and 10 are super dependant on downforce
And even 1 too
So you can gain a lot in the corners
And due to all the drs zones most of the extra rear wing you have is taken away when opened
Only extra drag from the front wing will make you slower
short ether
Spielberg is full throttle but alot of the corners are fast and wonky cambered
grand silo
Super hard track
daring sigil
So basically any sort of masters that is relevant to the position I am applying ...
well some universities may stand out more eg ivy leauge etc, but if you have good grades and put in the work, ur sure to land a good job
green marlin
well some universities may stand out more eg ivy leauge etc, but if you have goo...
Ah cool, well I'd rather go to the university I thrive in than going to the university that I dream of.
daring sigil
Ah cool, well I'd rather go to the university I thrive in than going to the univ...
yeah, some unis will look good on ur cv but in the end, it's the work u put in
green marlin
yeah, some unis will look good on ur cv but in the end, it's the work u put in
Yeah exactly. I am kind of unsure what I want to try to become and if F1 is a career for me, like there is no life outside of F1 if you are inside.
daring sigil
Yeah exactly. I am kind of unsure what I want to try to become and if F1 is a ca...
well not really, if u work at the track u have a very busy schedule, if u work at the factory or at base u have more time, since ur always where u live but then again wtf do ik
green marlin
well not really, if u work at the track u have a very busy schedule, if u work a...
True, but you know, it would have been damn cool being trackside too. But, at the same time idk really. I am mostly interested in aerodynamics, the engines and eventually management. I don't think being a strategist would fit me.
daring sigil
True, but you know, it would have been damn cool being trackside too. But, at th...
well engineers are still needed at the track lol
green marlin
well engineers are still needed at the track lol
Yeah, but not that many and not so many aerodynamic persons. My guess is that when any bodywork gets messed up they replace the parts.
zenith pumice
Bro I thought that was a bad edit of something lol
daring sigil
Yeah, but not that many and not so many aerodynamic persons. My guess is that wh...
yeah, but like ppl like Newey get to come so idk
green marlin
yeah, but like ppl like Newey get to come so idk
Yeah true. What kind of engineers work trackside?
daring sigil
Yeah true. What kind of engineers work trackside?
i dont know lol sorry
green marlin
Ah, ok. Thank you anyway
granite nova
how does a f1 engine rev soo much
They're 1.6L V6 Turbo Hybrids
Generally, engines with smaller displacement rev higher
hexed mulch
They're 1.6L V6 Turbo Hybrids
Generally, engines with smaller displacement rev h...
But we have to remember that in the V8 era cars managed to rev up to 20.5 k rpm with a bigger displacement engine
Because the thing that limited the engine was only the displacement and boar, while now there also is a rev limiter
swift stirrup
Because the thing that limited the engine was only the displacement and boar, wh...
cursive wraith
granite nova
But we have to remember that in the V8 era cars managed to rev up to 20.5 k rpm ...
He meant the higher whine which is usually a result of smaller displacement engines
hexed mulch
Yes that's true
short ether
He meant the higher whine which is usually a result of smaller displacement engi...
The V10 were 3L
mighty furnace
This is a stupid question. And I have no idea how I don't know the answer but will the 2022 cars have DRS? Coz I'm looking at the new rear wings and trying to figure out how it would work if they do
crimson granite
yea they'll have drs
abstract pawn
As I understand it all cars will be equipped with DRS but they might not use it
They just want it on the cars in case it is needed
mighty furnace
Ok, thought so.
Now the only question I have is how it's gonna work. Looking at the shape I'm guessing either the bottom plate will flatten or the top plate will retract
mighty furnace
As I understand it all cars will be equipped with DRS but they might not use it
That makes sense. The way these cars are designed so that the turbulent air is less consequential to following cars, slipstreaming will become far more powerful.
raw nest
The top one will go flat, makes more sense to me
The lower one is almost completely flat
mighty furnace
Yeah but it's already so flat it doesn't seem like it wouldn't change the profile too much. If it retracts under the bottom plate somehow though it would effectively halve the aerodynamic surface area of the rear wing when active
At least that's what I'm seeing from that shape
raw nest
As I understand it all cars will be equipped with DRS but they might not use it
I think they should use it even if it's not for overtaking. You should be able to use it on the zones no matter where the car in front is just to keep F1 fast without much cost
mighty furnace
I think they should use it even if it's not for overtaking. You should be able t...
Nah I like the one second rule means you have to earn it
If everone used it without restriction then it would be rather pointless
abstract pawn
^^
raw nest
Why pointless? It keeps them all faster without cost
mighty furnace
Yeah but it's supposed to be an overtaking tool if you can defend DRS with DRS it becomes redundant. Also, if cost is the issue then no DRS at all would be the cheapest option
raw nest
The overtaking one second rule is the best but even if they don't need it for overtaking and they don't take the 1 second rule, they should still have it for better straight line speed in general
abstract pawn
But they’re not slow without it anyway
mighty furnace
The overtaking one second rule is the best but even if they don't need it for ov...
Just adding outright straightline speed in general makes the racing less dynamic though
By having this system set to a specific purpose, it helps keep it interesting
raw nest
Totally agree
mighty furnace
Then what's your point exactly? If it ain't broke why do you want to fix it?
raw nest
What did i say though?
I said if they don't want it for overtaking anymore they should still keep it for general speed
mighty furnace
You're saying the use of it should be unrestricted like in practice and Quali
raw nest
Yes if they don't want it for overtaking anymore
spiral gyro
They should use the drs in quali imo
raw nest
At least yes for general speed
mighty furnace
Well I imagine early in the new regs it won't be as powerful a tool anymore. But teams will eventually find a way to develop their DRS systems to these new wing designs and it will become a powerful tool once again.
mighty furnace
They should use the drs in quali imo
Don't they allow it anymore?
Just googled it and yes they do
I didn't think they removed DRS from Quali
spiral gyro
I mean they do but what I’m saying is let them use drs for quali and not for the race U know for closer racing
mighty furnace
They've removed qualifying engine modes
mighty furnace
I mean they do but what I’m saying is let them use drs for quali and not for the...
The DRS helps with closer racing though coz it allows people to overtake eachother?
With how turbulent the air the current cars throw off is, it's very difficult to overtake purely off slipstream
spiral gyro
Yeah so if they are saying that the new cars don’t produce too much dirty air they can just use the slipstream instead of using the drs
mighty furnace
Yeah they will. But I think the reason they've kept it is because as the teams develop these new cars they'll find ways to counter conventional slipstreaming and in response to that they'll also engineer ways to make the DRS more powerful again. So it might not be as needed for the first couple of years but will eventually become as important at tool as ever
spiral gyro
Yea
mighty furnace
So it's still the right move to keep it. We just won't see DRS overtakes like we saw in Portimao last year for a while
So on how these new wings would work. I'd actually be super interested if teams were given free reign over how the DRS works on their car. Some would make it to do with the bottom plate somehow, others would make it the top plate and we'd get to see two different sets of innovation battle for supremacy.
Areo departments would have a lot of fun with that I think
short ether
DRS bad
mighty furnace
Thank you for such a meaningful contribution to this discussion
short ether
You're welcome
In all seriousness, I'm not a fan of DRS because it's a push to pass that's not organic in deployment
It's just... Wow you've now made tracks have a guaranteed pass here here and here, but it then means those passes feel meaningless
raw nest
You say it's not really skill based overtaking, right?
short ether
Yeah, at least to me
It feels very gimmicky
It's not like actual push to pass or something like the hanford device that is used at all times and therefore requires on strategic useage
I tend to like for road courses those fights where maybe only one move is made, but the build up and following and whatnot is just pressure central for one decisive blow
When you have ding dong battles everywhere it feels like it kinda invalidates the meaning of position defence if you can just take it back later
mighty furnace
I guess there's an argument for that. But there is still some skill involved in passing with DRS. Though it's more about getting to the DRS Zone than the overtake itself. Like you have to stay close enough to the car in front for it to be effective enough which means managing the areo loss of being in turbulent air and getting your corner exit absolutely spot on to avoid letting your opponent pull away far enough early in the DRS Zone to be able to defend
Like, last year's Mercedes had a glaring weakness (its only weakness really if you can even call it that) when it came to following which hindered it in traffic despite its massive pace advantage. Not being able to follow well limits your ability to pass with DRS
Which makes the skill of following much more important
short ether
I wonder how much heat the engine can endure due to the high rpm....
If F1 use the normal engine oil
Will it survive?
mighty furnace
Nah they have specialised engine lubricants and cooling
Also the current engines are actually lower rpm than previous generations with the regulations against fuel flow rates
mighty furnace
Both
I listened to the beyond the grid podcast episode with Andy Cowell who has been Mercedes' engine guru right up until the end of last season, he explained in depth the differences in how the power is generated between the V8, V10 and V12 eras compared to the Turbo Hybrid era
short ether
Right I'll listen to that podcast later
mighty furnace
It's a fantastic podcast. Covers so many different areas of F1, both current and historical
mighty furnace
I don't know the exact answer. But in terms of lap speed no
Straight line power output, maybe. But not on overall pace
short ether
That make me curious which era is the fastest
But all I know that they use V6 before the V12 era
Right?
short ether
I mean the 70s 80s F1?
mighty furnace
Oh. I think those were Flat 6, and only used by a few teams
Engine restrictions were far less standardised back then
mighty furnace
Huh how about that. I thought the Turbo era used Flat 6 engines. You learn something new every day
granite tundra
That make me curious which era is the fastest
define 'fastest'
short ether
1987-1988
short ether
define 'fastest'
In term of top speed?
granite tundra
in terms of top-speed it was 2015-16 of the V6THs
short ether
This is what I found
mighty furnace
in terms of top-speed it was 2015-16 of the V6THs
Is that with party modes? Or race modes only?
granite tundra
Is that with party modes? Or race modes only?
either/or
short ether
What an idiot of me trying to compare which engine is the best between F1 and MotoGP
granite tundra
bottas set similar speeds in both the race and quali in 2015/16
mighty furnace
Ah ok. Though of course that was back when you could increase engine modes in the race as well as quali
mighty furnace
What an idiot of me trying to compare which engine is the best between F1 and Mo...
I have a YouTube video you might enjoy watching about comparing different discipline's paces. I'll find it
Covers all various kinds of pace measurements
short ether
👍
But still, huge respect for engine manufacturers to create engine that can endure extreme speed and heat
mighty furnace
Yeah. The innovations motor racing comes up with are massive for society.
fringe sun
https://youtu.be/a-lfocbxnn4
I've seen this
very good vide
urban ravine
.
formal estuary
If the v10s had drs they be pretty close if not faster than the v6's imo
unborn swallow
https://youtu.be/a-lfocbxnn4
but what about drag racing rockets? 😄
short ether
If the v10s had drs they be pretty close if not faster than the v6's imo
If they had slicks they probably would too
Early 2003 Michelin construction and slicks on 2004-2005 cars would be devastating
short ether
Yeah probably not
drowsy nacelle
faster in the straights and sliding in the corners
Just like Vettel and some issue with his Chassis in 2019
Or so I heard
short ether
Although that being said... TCS
drowsy nacelle
Basically the driver himself
I understand
ah you mean TCS in that era
I understand now
zenith pumice
Yeah then it's ok
drowsy nacelle
Ok I just now noticed, Norris has more points than Bottas
drowsy nacelle
Yh recalled as I typed that
zenith pumice
xd
warm totem
Hey guys can someone tell me why at the end of the Race the drivers are asked to "Pick up rubber" ?
short ether
to be sure to be overweight
marginal gains, but F1 is based on marginal gains anyway
warm totem
to be sure to be overweight
oh wow.. I thought it has maybe something to do with the heat, durability or something.. interessting
upper ivy
marginal gains, but F1 is based on marginal gains anyway
do they actually get that close to being underweight or is it just tradition at this point?
grand silo
It’s just to be safe
runic scroll
This might be rather offtopic, but I'm very much interested in talking about the race marshalls' equipments
Like how the French marshalls used tactical, high cut bump helmets with railings that can attach ear protection
The Monegasque race marshalls catch my eye the most
The ones with pilot helmets and cowhide gloves
They look more like helicopter pilots than guys who overlooks an F1 race
lunar karma
fringe sun
https://twitter.com/racingtech5/status/1407656019946262528?s=21
is the diff in those small fins
wintry pollen
They look more like helicopter pilots than guys who overlooks an F1 race
lmao yeah
anyone knows the dimension of next year car?
runic scroll
anyone knows the dimension of next year car?
The 4th dimension
cursive wraith
stark ember
anyone knows the dimension of next year car?
Dimensions, no
But here's a comparison
Not sure how true this is as I found it on soem random Instagram page
wintry pollen
Not sure how true this is as I found it on soem random Instagram page
Yeah i still doubt if its legit or not
tacit bridge
i think the 2022 is smaller than 2021 but bigger than on picture
wintry pollen
Dimensions, no
But here's a comparison
Its significantly shorter, which is sus because i doubt they'll fit the powertrain
stark ember
stark ember
Its significantly shorter, which is sus because i doubt they'll fit the powertra...
Don't know the accuracy of this so don't quote me on this image
tacit bridge
daring sigil
this is 2019 Renault vs 2022
stark ember
Nice to see we're seeing more images of stuff for the 2022 F1 car the closer the get
wintry pollen
this is 2019 Renault vs 2022
I think this one is somewhat more accurate
stark ember
Of course we'll have to wait until Winter to see the full thing from each team
wintry pollen
Yeah cant wait to see how it looks
amber elk
can anyone tell me the difference between mgu-k and mgu-h?
spiral gyro
Mug-h/Motor generator unit-heat what it does is it recovers and stores energy in the form of electricity from the gasses which spin the TC plus it can also use that recovered energy to make it spin the compressor for more power.
Mgu-k/Motor generator unit-kinetic, what this does is it harvests energy from the brakes while braking and it can store it plus use the energy for more power
Functions are pretty much the same
@amber elk
fringe sun
this is 2019 Renault vs 2022
seems like they're making the car more stable by reducing it's lenght
also, the fronth and rear wheel dimensions are different right?
wicked hare
why are F1 cars not AWD
cursive wraith
Too much weight
It wouldn't be beneficial at all considering how much weight they were adding
wicked hare
interesting but it gives more traction
cursive wraith
Yes but overall considering how much downforce these cars have it just isn't worth it
The beneficiary gains are not much compared to how much they are losing
wicked hare
the more grip you get the more speed you get tho
on turns they could be a lot faster
i say it is a pretty good deal
limber sluice
why are F1 cars not AWD
hmm and it would take the sheen away from wet races
drivers will prolly have less work to do
upper ivy
Its significantly shorter, which is sus because i doubt they'll fit the powertra...
Isn't most of the powertrain in the "fat" part of the bodywork?
granite tundra
the power unit doesn't take up much space at all
upper ivy
https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/crash.net/styles/large_article/s3/hires/1868716.0036.jpg?itok=V149I7Yp e.g. in this pic (honda from 2016; but I don't think the PUs suddenly massively increased in size or are much different between the manufacturers?) most of the parts in the rear seem to be part of the exhaust system
short ether
Yeah that is all gearbox housing and exhaust
crimson granite
That's a longggg exhaust
spiral gyro
thanks to the smol engine
tight wharf
https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/crash.net/styles/large_article/s3/hires/18687...
the geepee2 engine
limber sluice
I don't know the meaning <:totofacepalm:854919979723784193>
its its participle for shine
xD
jolly patrol
https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/crash.net/styles/large_article/s3/hires/18687...
McLaren specifically asked honda to make a very small engine and that was part of the reason it was so bad because they had to make the engine fit into the car rather than design the car around the engine like other manufacturers
short ether
McLaren were unable to compromise so the MGU's would overheat due to lack of cooling area
mighty furnace
What's this I'm seeing about the FIA limiting how quick a pit stop can be? (Though that was on Instagram so I have no idea if it's true)
dense kayak
in free practice, what are the top priorities for the teams and drivers?
is it just getting the right setups for quali?
or is there some thing else
near ether
I mean it's hard to say
some teams run on lower fuel or higher fuel setups
that also effects a lot
@abstract pawn can help you I guess
dense kayak
eh it just confuses me to see daniel in p2 and valterri in p12
abstract pawn
I mean no driver is looking to impress anyone in practice
Practice is just for the teams and drivers to, well, practice for the race and qualifying
dense kayak
then on saturday it goes the other way round xd
abstract pawn
Also for the team to gather all the necessary data about the tires etc heading into the race
And for the drivers to find a good setup and to get into the groove with the car
Also what was already stated that some teams tend to run lower engine modes and higher fuels in practice and keep their cards closer to their chest
While some do it the other way around it really depends on what kind of approach and program you have during the weekend
warm totem
Does someone know why the Merc crew told Bottas NOT to use Reverse when he spun in the Pitlane? (Gearbox wear?)
warm totem
ohh.. allright easy then.. thanks
near ether
np
spiral gyro
rigid thorn
silver bear
Its fucking bullshit is what it is
tawdry geyser
How on earth does the maFIA police this pit stop rule?
spiral gyro
They did this for safety
Plus there weren’t that many incidents in the last decade or so
raw nest
By an automation system that is used by everyone anyways. It depends from team to team how they gamble but some teams are turning the nut twice and then let it go green because they then after the 2 turns still have time to do more but the process of letting the car down and then giving the driver the green light has already started. They want to stop that because it is dangerous for the mechanics like to still be on the wheel nut when the car goes so every wheel nut must be completely on and after that has been acomplished, 0.2 seconds (Human reaction times) will be put on the automation system to see that the wheel is on to start the process of letting the car down and giving green.
limber sluice
Just... Send out another car with a set of mechanics driving it
Like midair refuelling
short ether
YES, THAT
zenith pumice
Mid-race refuelling
short ether
Change their tyres on the track with a lorry instead
proud rune
just curious does hard compound slowly become medium quality tyres?
short ether
What do you mean?
boreal ginkgo
yo guys~ any1 know whats is pneumatic pressure?
short ether
Pneumatics pertain to gas
Hydraulics pertain to fluid
So pneumatic pressure is just air compression
lunar bolt
what exactly is a one-stop strategy?
crimson granite
stopping once for tyres
raw nest
just curious does hard compound slowly become medium quality tyres?
Ah negative. Medium is faster than hard obviously and if you drive a hard set it will degrade and because of that will get even slower (except tyre warm up for a few laps) .That's with every tyre. But you could say for example: Soft tyre 5 laps in is as fast as a fresh medium set because it has degradet the advantage away. (Laps depending on circuit)
near ether
Can we expect more stomp of Red Bull next race in Austria hence there will be softer compounds ?
zenith pumice
It seems that the Mercedes car works better on harder compounds, so perhaps more interesting
near ether
Yeah that's what I was telling
zenith pumice
Definitely they need to work a little more next GP
near ether
Mercedes seems to fail on softer compounds hard
raw nest
Max after the race said to sky germany that the softer tyres will play even more into the hands of them because of the better deg
zenith pumice
Well… I think it’s just that the softer compounds last less on Mercedes that’s why they can’t get a good lap in
near ether
Wonder if they bring a update in the upcoming races
Toto said they are done
but we all know it's a lie
maybe nothing major but I am expecting something.
raw nest
Could be a tactical one from Toto
zenith pumice
I’m not sure they will… but they have to do something because otherwise the Red Bulls will run away with the championship
raw nest
It's so early in the season that's why i don't believe what Toto said, too many ones to go
zenith pumice
Yep
near ether
Mercedes is a kinda team known for longer plans
maybe in the upcoming races
they'll just accept RB era
and focus on 2022 car more
zenith pumice
Their logic is that Red Bull will have to pour a lot onto this season, which means time spent not working on 2022
near ether
With Adrian Newey planning their 22 car RB is kinda safe I believe
also engine freeze
Honda will def help them behind the doors
abstract pawn
But their head of aero is leaving
near ether
Mercedes PU team takes a big hit this year
raw nest
Yea but don't you believe they have someone to step into his role
I think they've got someone in the backhand
abstract pawn
Obviously but their current head of aero has been with them since 2006
And played a big part in their success
near ether
With Adrian Newey there I doubt they'll have problem with aero tbh lol.
raw nest
Hard hit for them but maybe better payment, makes sense
raw nest
With Adrian Newey there I doubt they'll have problem with aero tbh lol.
He's a genius but he also needs someone to look after him and oversee his work
near ether
Worst case for RB will be PU problems in 22 I believe
I also wonder what's going on with Ferrari now
Their PU will be updated next year ?
or will it get affected by engine freeze ?
raw nest
They will all absolutely push the maximum out of the development
I need to check again but my head says engine freeze till the end of this season, new engine for 2022 but after that freeze to 2025
near ether
ExxenMobil must have a nice oil there
Allowed RB engine to run on higher mode
or RB just managed to burn oil as Merc level lol
raw nest
It's a little aged but from this one i can see no new PU's for 2022
„The introduction of a freeze on power unit development from the beginning of 2022 leaves teams scope to further develop the engines they will race this season. Red Bull and AlphaTauri, whose power unit manufacturer Honda will leave at the end of this season, were key proponents of the change, and are expected to now seek a deal which will allow them to continue using the engines next year.“
Development except reliability is already banned from now so this is a little aged but from this i see these engines to 2025 but maybe we will see development tokens again or so. Won't make much sense because of the new chassis though.
crimson granite
Don't think so no
viscid shoal
ok ty
short ether
No
wintry pollen
Is the format of the new PU already revealed?
You mean the PU for 2025 onwards?
viscid shoal
yes
wintry pollen
yeah there are no info about that yet. iirc theyll have carbon neutral fuel or whatever by then
short ether
How would I become a tyre gunner?
abstract pawn
become a mechanic first
short ether
What mechanic jobs are there for before you get into F1
zenith pumice
Well, ideally something in the feeder series I assume
short ether
K
zenith pumice
Or other motorsport wouldn't be bad either
royal carbon
any experience in general
most mechanics didn't do anything formula related for a long time, they did regular cars, different types of motorsports until they eventually got into formula
it's a road with many paths
just be a mechanic somewhere and try to find the right people
because a tyre gunner isn't just a tyre gunner, he's a mechanic too, he repairs the car, he knows how it works
with dedication, you can do it, maybe not formula 1, but something you enjoy still
rare geyser
KnowYourMeme displays the origin for the "Yes" meme answer as 2016 but I've found here on the second message of this page to have the same meme 6 years prior to it.
https://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8180
So the discussion in that page is, does the abundance of power or torque spins the wheels?
That's an age old question tho, should have been a public conscious by long ago.
short ether
Torque usually
Because power is torque at revs. And you may say oh well what if you use it in gear 1 then you've multiplied your torque by using such a low gear
Because if you get a 15,000rpm through one gear to a wheel for 1,200rpm/100mph, you've now multiplied your torque by 12.5 times
rare geyser
But for example if the engine spins 10% faster but the torque is 5% less you'd apply torque multiplied by gearing more often in a time unit. And with that RPM increase if you want to keep the shifting at same speed you'd have more aggressive gearing. So more RPM and shorter gearing, that's simply 2 bonuses for acceleration.
short ether
Yeah, it's Torque bruv
rare geyser
Torque is just a turning force, if you lean on a 1 ft wrench you could generate 130-160 lbs/ft torque for example
short ether
Idk why you're telling me this when you asked the question
rare geyser
Like I've told before, this is an age old question but I've seen people debate this so often, so I guess I'm doing the same right now.
short ether
It's wheel torque
You have enough torque force to overload the tyre grip coefficient or whatever
rare geyser
For that it could be raw torque for sure like you need certain amount of torque because how friction goes. Basically the rolling resistance should be overcome. For example you need to apply the minimum required force to push an object on the ground. Could have have too low of a torque to move the tyres even a little bit for example a 1.000.000 RPM engine with 1 lbs/ft of torque. It could at least have 190 HP if the torque curve was flat all the way up. What would happen then, would the car not be able to break the friction of the rolling resistance, would the clutch be burned then.. Well this has been a long typing and answering, we could just let it go but I appreciate if someone could answer.
short ether
If we theoretically could do that and gear it down then... You'd have 833.3ft/lb to the wheels
Ignoring losses
silent vale
this is a ass load of math
opaque bramble
Honda Research and Development: Technical Review 2009 in full report, 376 pages
describes in intricate detail the development of honda's 2009 car, later being purchased by team principal ross brawn, and leading to a double championship
drowsy nacelle
For that it could be raw torque for sure like you need certain amount of torque ...
Looks like it shouldn't twitch if the effective torque/ force at the surface the tire is not enough to overcome the static frictional force threshold and the clutch should slip, but I still can't visualise it confidently somehow.
crimson granite
ooof I think they made that video right after quali in Imola
and were like huh Lando without getting his lap time deleted was super close to getting pole
tacit bridge
it was also 2 races in so like
crimson granite
yea way too early
spiral gyro
Probably needed content
crimson granite
yea
spiral gyro
dense kayak
is the two stop now viable that the compounds are softer?
for this weekend btw
spark crypt
is the two stop now viable that the compounds are softer?
Not really, you might see Merc/RB pull one though
spiral gyro
is the two stop now viable that the compounds are softer?
most of the teams will go for one stoppers but if the team ahead has a very big gap they'll certainly do it
tawdry geyser
Like RB?
zealous mirage
Vettel to be summoned by the FIA about the Incident with Alonso
granite tundra
absolutely incredible
slam dunk penalty for vettel but this is ridiculous from the FIA
abstract pawn
Explain
granite tundra
cars slowing down and potentially impeding one another on out laps has been an issue for years
but the FIA have just gone ahead with controlling t9-10 for some reason
and lo and behold, that just shifts the problem a few hundred feet up the road
zealous mirage
Provisional Classification, without possible penalties
granite tundra
everyone is just pissing about at 20mph on a live track, because the FIA are letting them
this is going to kill someone eventually
abstract pawn
Did the FIA not set a minimum time for this weekend?
granite tundra
only between SC1 and SC2
abstract pawn
And did they not say "do not slow down between Turn 9 and 10"
granite tundra
And did they not say "do not slow down between Turn 9 and 10"
which nobody was doing
they just did it before t9
abstract pawn
Ah yes right
granite tundra
everyone in that queue of cars was following the event notes
absurd
mandate a minimum speed across the entire lap and between marshal posts, and be done with it
get rid of this gentlemen's agreement as well
give the drivers hard and fast rules for what they can do on out-laps, and we'll see this sort of thing almost disappear
zenith pumice
https://streamable.com/qanonh
What the hell man, this is just insane
What are they doing
Why is this allowed
granite tundra
because the FIA actually don't know how to write reasonable rules
this is the sort of thing that people should be furious about
zenith pumice
You'd think that the pinnacle of motorsport's governing body would ideally not have real slow moving cars on a live track
But nope
granite tundra
it's the FIA
for every thing they manage to get right, they utterly fuck it at something else
zenith pumice
Will they do something about this? I hope they do
zenith pumice
It's so dangerous, I wouldn't feel comfortable driving there when another car is going like a snail
granite tundra
i've said it for ages, just have an effectively reversed VSC
give drivers a minimum speed to stay above for each marshal sector
short ether
Bro can we bring back single shot quali or whatever like 2004?
granite tundra
drop below that and it's an automatic summons to explain yourself
short ether
it'll be at least something from 2004 I can clamber on to
granite tundra
treat it like a V/SC infringement
i have a theory that the FIA's f1 team have a sweepstakes going on who can make the dumbest decisions possible at any given weekend
i genuinely couldn't explain it otherwise
crimson granite
lmao
zenith pumice
Maybe instead of complaining of Michael Masi's warning towards Max, people should look at this
abstract pawn
Twitter
zealous mirage
raw nest
A mess really this whole thing. I would like to see the VSC idea
zenith pumice
I mean yeah if he did it
Penalise him
If he has actually done it, give the appropriate action
spiral gyro
worthy monolith
give drivers a minimum speed to stay above for each marshal sector
Wouldn't the tires play a more significant role in all this, if they drive at a certain pace the risk of not having them in the optimal window and therefore a good lap goes out the window.
short ether
i have a theory that the FIA's f1 team have a sweepstakes going on who can make ...
So... All weather tyres?
no no, Mike... Subtle
Uh, what is Red Bull good at?
bingo
tawdry geyser
smoky trout
Is this some sort of marshaling system ?
zealous mirage
McLaren have changed the Front Nose assembly on Lando Norris' car
upper ivy
Is this some sort of marshaling system ?
I think that's to signal when a driver in the starting grid has a problem right before the start?
granite tundra
it's dual purpose
the reverse side displays the appropriate car number to help drivers line up in the correct spot, and after the grid is 'safe', they switch to displaying green/yellows for any stationary cars
smoky trout
Does it only display the driver numbers on one side ?
Because I have only seen it on the side of the pit lane and not on the other side of the grid
topaz kraken
Does it only display the driver numbers on one side ?
I think so yes
smoky trout
Okay.
stark ember
All penalty points on F1 driver license given out this weekend
glossy gust
All penalty points on F1 driver license given out this weekend
YES
rare geyser
When combustion cars are banned, what will F1 do to keep it's road relevancy?
The time for the ICE bans are said at 2030. Do you think that synthetic fuels are sustainable or economically viable for the end user?
I think Honda made the right choice to pull out of F1 for the engineers focus on future power units, still I think it's for the worse for advertising, since Mercedes has supposedly made billions in F1. The thing is Euro 7 rules are going to start at 2026 and the ICE cars will be banned in 2030 if all goes according to plan so only 4 years of sales will benefit from F1 R&D (4 years isn't too bad tho, I guess). Will F1 get away with using environmentally friendly fuels while still carrying large amount of things with planes which actually produces way more. In fact a single jet plane travel can produce as much as CO2 as all of the F1 cars a year.
tawdry geyser
I think F1 needs to go in a different direction but the we race as one message is making it hard to do. F1 is the pinnacle of Motorsport and going electric would kill the sport for me. F1 needs to make engines that are more emotive and special. I like the new regs proposed for 2025, the v6 turbos are great but they lack some emotion in my opinion.
Oh, and biofuels are the way to go for Motorsport
loud matrix
question : will Lando penalty points be ZERO when he get the 1Race ban ? or Will there be more severe precautions if he continues to get penalty points ?
(sorry for the english)
tawdry geyser
question : will Lando penalty points be ZERO when he get the 1Race ban ? or Wil...
yep, im sure someone else will correct me if im wrong but once you get a one race ban your penalty points go to 0
loud matrix
ok, thx
upper ivy
It's definitely gonna be interesting how not just F1 but motorsports as a whole will develop. The ICE "ban" only affects new road cars afaik, old ones can still be driven and resold.
I do think that E-fuels/synthetic fuels are the only option to keep ICEs in professional motorsports in the long term; however they need to be produced using electricity from "green"/renewable sources to really make sense.
short ether
I think this ban on ICEs is daft without a big plan to recycle used batteries
short ether
I really am a big proponent of Biofuels, now I guess E-Fuels because everything from the future has to have an E in front of it. The bans on ICE's also only concern Petrol and Diesel, with F1 at least going to something like Ethanol, then that circumvents that path
But imo... Majority Ethanol? Sucky
Even so, whatever new fuel blends F1 goes to, unless they crack down IsoButanol to something like IsoOctane almost exclusively, will have to be run with a greater amount of fuel allowance
Petrol has been pretty unique in the fact it has a 14.7:1 stoichiometric ratio, and while it can be fiddled around a bit with coz no blend is the same, things like Ethanol have a 9:1 Stoich, Butanol 11.1:1, Toluene 13.5:1
So the only way to balance it out would be IsoOctane which has 15.1:1
Then you'd probably have slightly less power dense fuels, but the Octane would get the compression up to compensate, but the FIA is the FIA
viscid shoal
I should've paid more attention to chemistry last year to understand this
all I can take out of it is that the FIA probably will do a dumb move
short ether
Oh this thing
tight wharf
granite tundra
<:hmmwhat:588342760122220564>
thanks for that excellent and valuable contribution
i like the f1metrics site, wasn't their work the basis of that 'official' driver rankings autosport (?) put out a couple years ago?
short ether
When combustion cars are banned, what will F1 do to keep it's road relevancy?
Th...
The Inevitable
tropic shoal
@loud matrix was here
stark ember
Just found this off some Instagram page
stark ember
When combustion cars are banned, what will F1 do to keep it's road relevancy?
Th...
Looks like this is a move
unborn swallow
Just use a jet engine instead, they don't care about fuels being banned
short ether
Just use a jet engine instead, they don't care about fuels being banned
very detailed and in-depth discussion..
zenith pumice
So I got a question:
Why is having a low rear wing more beneficial than having a high one?
Is it just because the airflow is more optimised to suit a lower rear wing? Or is there a deeper reason
granite tundra
is it outright more beneficial though?
cursive wraith
Isn't high rake more beneficial?
granite tundra
you get a COG benefit from having it lower, but also generally start to run into more issues with it interacting with overbody airflow
are you thinking of front wing instead?
zenith pumice
So why did cars transition from high to low rear wings
Was it just better for them to do that at that time with development in f1
granite tundra
iirc that was a combination of packaging and aesthetic reasons
zenith pumice
are you thinking of front wing instead?
Why would a lower fw help?
cursive wraith
More downforce?
granite tundra
lower to the ground means that you can exploit ground effect more
because you're accelerating the air under the FW more
which is another benefit of a high-rake concept
zenith pumice
I see
short ether
You'll see tubs are actually tilted upward at an angle so they sit flat with rake angle
fringe sun
Just found this off some Instagram page
these statements sound contradictory to me lmao
zenith pumice
Hey, welcome! Please post classic images in #classic-motorsport because this channel is for in-depth technical discussions
fresh escarp
I like your taste in cars
coarse silo
Am I the only one who liked the 80-90s f1 cars. It was when engineering was at its peak
versed inlet
I don’t think anyone disliked them?
woeful sequoia
Am I the only one who liked the 80-90s f1 cars. It was when engineering was at i...
They are very popular. But I don't think it was engineering at it's peak: There have been faster and more reliable cars after the 1989-1994 period.
short ether
I adore the 1989-1994 cars due to the 3.5L engines and Active SUS
And the start of the decade with the ground effect era, with cars between being hit or misd
blazing saffron
the 1993-1995 era cars were beauties
short ether
tough oyster
So how will Ferrari be implementing their underbody development? Will this stuff be more of an experiment for this season to maximize performance for the rest of the season until 2022 with the new F1 body, or will they take it to the ‘22 season despite smaller cars with the new, heavier software?
short ether
Wdym?
short ether
Just quickly bois, can I have people send their favourite F1 cars from the side, mainly about their Wheelbase bias
short ether
Ohhhh boy
I've found a thing
About the golden ratio anyway...
I think it'll factor into what designs we like alooot
Sorry I'm just noticing like the length is like 1.6~ the wheelbase and stuff like that
The tyre height looks about that to the car height, etc. etc
wintry pollen
Is there any reason why Williams prefer separated screen and steering wheel rather than integrate it like other teams?
short ether
It allows for lighter wheels, and idk the preference for a static display rather than a moving one
It used to be alot more common to do so, like with the Red Bull's in the V8 era
wintry pollen
Lighter wheels so that they are slightly easier to turn?
short ether
Yeah, and allows greater feedback response
lapis bough
Is there any reason why Williams prefer separated screen and steering wheel rath...
You go through multiple steering wheels a year, so it saves money to not have to replace the screen each time
raw nest
Is there any reason why Williams prefer separated screen and steering wheel rath...
in an episode of F1 tech talk from this year they also said it saves 0.1 horsepower something like that, i will find it again
raw nest
in an episode of F1 tech talk from this year they also said it saves 0.1 horsepo...
Because of hydraulic something
Yea so the dashboard weighs 130 grams + screws and cables. If you turn the wheel, you require power steering, which requires hyrdaulic, which requires engine power. That's why they want to save weight from it, to not stress it further. They did not say a number of horsepower, but it is a small small amount under 1
short ether
You know F1 cars have power steering?
cursive shoal
Yeah but it's a very special power steering, it function it's the same as conventional ones but doesn't make turns sooo soo easy as road power steerings does
granite tundra
why would the weight of the steering wheel itself affect load requirements on the power steering?
the spool valve on the power steering setup responds to the torque going through the steering column
that torque is the same regardless of the mass of the wheel
raw nest
It's not from myself this, they said it. It's the Portugal episode minute 34 it starts. For those who have F1 TV
unborn swallow
So, 2022 cars aerodynamic changes lead to this:
Less overbody Aero -> Less drag -> More straightline speed
Less drag -> Less DRS effect
Less drag -> Less slipstream effect
Less overbody Aero -> less reliance on overbody Aero -> less disturbance by turbulent air -> more downforce while following a car
Less overbody Aero -> Less influence by wind
Less frontwing and rearwing -> Less methods to control understeer and oversteer -> Harder to drive cars
granite tundra
Pretty much all of that is just wrong
-2022 regs are more draggy (CD ~1.21 vs 0.9)
-front wing and rear wing are both more influential in 2022
-influence of wind is largely due to car length and side area
-you cannot draw a direct relationship between car drag and the magnitude and behaviour of the tow and DRS
zinc parcel
Wind effect also dependent on yaw angle
short ether
that torque is the same regardless of the mass of the wheel
That's... Untrue
granite tundra
How?
granite tundra
Right
abstract pawn
By 2025 at the latest, Formula 1 wants to run on climate-neutral fuel. The four manufacturers have already been allowed to test a first prototype of the petrol. The first impression: significantly less power, but also advantages in the combustion process.
While the engine manufacturers are still arguing about the drive concept of the future, the roadmap for the fuel is already set. In 2022, Formula 1 will switch to E10 petrol. From 2025, only 100 per cent CO2-neutral fuels are to be used. In order to show the mineral oil companies and car corporations that it is possible, the FIA has had a fuel produced from biological waste and distributed it to Mercedes, Ferrari, Honda and Renault in 200-litre barrels each.
The first impression was not surprising. "The fuel has less energy, which leads to a loss of engine power," one engineer tells us. The figures vary between 60 and 80 kilowatts (80 to 110 hp) loss, depending on the manufacturer.
Formula 1 engines burn more efficiently than a diesel engine, but they also need a special brew that is not available at any filling station. If one were to run one of the V6 turbos on standard petrol, there would also be a significant drop in performance.
For the manufacturers, the first step is to exploit the advantages of ethanol blending and eliminate the disadvantages as far as possible in order to increase the compression ratio under certain circumstances. This becomes more and more difficult as the proportion of climate-neutral fuel is increased. That is why those responsible also abandoned the original plan to start with E20 fuel. Instead, they decided to make a hard cut to 100 per cent by 2025.
Engine guru Mario Illien had the same experience in a self-experiment with a Swiss start-up company. Unlike the FIA, his fuel came entirely from the laboratory. With this production process, it is still difficult to achieve the octane number necessary for high-performance engines.
But research is tearing down boundaries here too. "The first batch had 91 octane, the second already 95," Illien reports. His suggestion for more power: "Increase the compression ratio! It's possible with ethanol." At the moment, a maximum of 18:1 is allowed in Formula 1.
If the octane rating drops below 102, the engines would have to be redesigned at considerable expense. "These engines have been trimmed for efficiency. Less octane means a loss of efficiency and therefore less power."
In the end, engine engineers don't care whether the fuel comes from the lab or is waste-based. "For us, only the properties of the petrol are interesting. The process of its production makes no difference. Purely synthetic fuel is perhaps a little cleaner in terms of residues, but that is minimal."
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/e-fuel-f1-versuche-ergebnisse-leistung/
short ether
WHY ARE THEY TALKING ABOUT OCTANE REDUCTION
fierce crag
Is DRS remains in 2022 car?
zenith pumice
Yes
graceful sun
Does anyone had a video on how the 2022 drs will work
short ether
Why is everyone so confused about DRS on the new cars?
steel lily
the new rear wing looks like one piece
upper ivy
yeah it's not directly obvious how it's gonna activate
graceful sun
Yeah the drs flap where it is on the 2021 on the 2022 car looks like one piece
wicked hare
why does the 2022 tire look so flat
grave copper
idk all ik is its 5 inches wider in diameter
and yeah ive been looking at pictures and the rear wing just looks like its all one piece
i think they are trying to remove drs in the future but
short ether
It'll look like one piece but where that top element goes flat it's still probably hinged
The 2022 tyres look so flat coz they don't have the sidewall ability to baloon
grave copper
i mean it has to be there somewhere so
wicked hare
and yeah ive been looking at pictures and the rear wing just looks like its all ...
the first time i saw the wing is like DAM BOY THAT IS A VERY THICK WING
wicked hare
yeah
soft shadow
unborn swallow
well yeah, Chain Bear explained that a year ago
this means the tunnels don't change with ride height of the chassis and this means they can't just simply collide with the ground and potentially break.
short ether
The rear wing might be shaped like that to decrease the amount of drag...so cleaner air
But it'angled to some level to keep enough downforce (so a little bit of drag will be induced) and that's why they might keep it
U all know what DRS means
But the rear wing is more dragy
@granite tundra
That 's what he said
So.
Maybe there is a DRS system somewhere
Yes there is !11 because it s hydraulic activated
Normally u should see 2 bars actuators
That ''push up " the wing upwards
Unless I'm wrong and it's for stability reasons
I'm not a aerodynamicist
zenith pumice
Why wouldn’t there still be a DRS mechanism
short ether
unborn swallow
no
zenith pumice
Eh I really doubt that they'll go with hydrogen
unborn swallow
Grosjean-crash with hydrogen 🤔
zenith pumice
For one thing, the technology for hydrogen isn't as developed as there will be with electric cars, which already have a very effectively proven system which can deliver power and torque enough for racing, and of course the battery life of this stuff—and other advancements are always constantly being made
It's also against the market trend to do this, because with the amount of stuff some manufacturers are pouring into EVs, I doubt there'll be too much demand for hydrogen
unborn swallow
hydrogen is basically a very inefficient way to store electical energy
zenith pumice
It's also really difficult to transport in large quantities, or rather transport cheaply or in an effective way
unborn swallow
plus the hydrogen must be in liquid form, how do you cool that?
zenith pumice
Yeah that's the biggest issue with hydrogen vehicles
I think F1 will eventually go with EVs because they're a proven technology which can be (relatively) easily implemented
unborn swallow
well, next season F1 will steal food from people that are hungry for their fuel instead
granite tundra
hydrogen is basically a very inefficient way to store electical energy
hydrogen has 3x the energy density of petrol
granite tundra
Grosjean-crash with hydrogen 🤔
why is this a relevant comparison? the fuel cell in grosjean's crash stayed intact and there's no reason to consider why that wouldn't also be the case with hydrogen storage
zenith pumice
Yeah the main issue with hydrogen is transport and storage
granite tundra
plus the hydrogen must be in liquid form, how do you cool that?
..the same way that FCEVs and HICEs have been cooling it for years?
zenith pumice
As well as EVs already being a reliable technology that's proven to work, like the hybrid systems right now and Formula E
granite tundra
pretty much all of what you just said is wrong
zenith pumice
It seems unlikely that they'll do hydrogen
granite tundra
As well as EVs already being a reliable technology that's proven to work, like t...
keep in mind you can also develop hydrogen EVs
which is a potential workaround to range issues
zenith pumice
I didn't know those were a thing, so if that's a possibility to combine both then that would maybe introduce hydrogen to F1
granite tundra
although from the article it looks like brawn is talking about hydrogen ICEs
nocturne steppe
It seems unlikely that they'll do hydrogen
Tbh they should keep the hybrid, connect that to a V10 and give 100% e-fuel
short ether
this means the tunnels don't change with ride height of the chassis and this mea...
Well... Not... Entirely true, what it does mean is they can still run alot of rake if the tunnel profile allows
zenith pumice
Yeah that's the main thing—I don't think Hydrogen ICEs will come into the picture
nocturne steppe
That's gonna just make the cars sound good and crazy quick
short ether
Hydrogen ICE's suck tho
granite tundra
Well... Not... Entirely true, what it does mean is they can still run alot of ra...
wait what
of course the tunnels will change with ride height.. they're part of the floor
it's the brake ducts/diffuser/skirts that are less susceptible to ride height changes
short ether
That's what I meant to answer to Nickname oof
granite tundra
yeah
short ether
O
granite tundra
that doesn't make any sense either 
short ether
What?
zenith pumice
Tbh they should keep the hybrid, connect that to a V10 and give 100% e-fuel
It can be a solution but I very highly doubt that F1 will go that direction, to bigger engines with hybrids
zenith pumice
The electric part of the car already is a big component of the f1 engine, so I only see that increasing in the future
nocturne steppe
It can be a solution but I very highly doubt that F1 will go that direction, to ...
We can still imagine. A 2022 car with that V10 and 0 worries about emissions
zenith pumice
Well yeah you can imagine, but with the direction F1 wants to go with it will not happen
nocturne steppe
Yeah
granite tundra
We can still imagine. A 2022 car with that V10 and 0 worries about emissions
how would it have no emissions?
nocturne steppe
If they at least increase the RPM the cars will sound wayyyyyyyyyyyyy better
zenith pumice
I mean especially with their focus on reducing emissions to help with global warming, and what's going on around me (I live in Germany, and there's floods here after huge rain showers) I don't think there will be any going back to that era ever
granite tundra
those still produce emissions?
short ether
Yes
zenith pumice
E-fuel
Combustion of any fuel produces by-products that go through the exhausts—emissions
nocturne steppe
those still produce emissions?
Yes but the same emissions r used to produce the fuel
granite tundra
you still have emissions at the tailpipe
short ether
Water
granite tundra
especially if you're pairing it with something like a big v10
short ether
... Uhm
Biofuels are net neutral by nature tho
Water is the only emission plus any of the oil
Using hydrogen
granite tundra
Biofuels are net neutral by nature tho
neutral when considering production, not at the point of use
short ether
Hydrogen sucks as a Combustion fuel tho
What?
The thing is
Seeing grojean's accident
Is making me think
nocturne steppe
neutral when considering production, not at the point of use
Exactly. Which is why they won't have to worry about it
short ether
But
It could still be applied
It's making you think hey that shouldn't have happened anyway? Because the tub shouldn't have an exposed fuel tank?
With a reinforced aluminium titanium fuell tank
... What
zenith pumice
Biofuels burn cleaner than gasoline, resulting in fewer greenhouse gas emissions, and are fully biodegradable, unlike some fuel additives.
They still do emit (source is energy.gov)
short ether
Of COURSE THEY EMIT
zenith pumice
I mean yeah if you burn a fuel then they will emit
granite tundra
Exactly. Which is why they won't have to worry about it
but net emissions creation is currently only one facet of what is considered, especially if you're drawing parallels to the compliance OEMs have to demonstrate in the consumer market
it's not just a case of "oh nice, zero emissions" and carrying on blindlny
short ether
Why not?
We also need a fuel that delivers enough power
With the new regs
Cars could end up slower than the 2019-202 cars
That's not exactly bad for the sport
I suppose so
Most biofuels, unless derived further will have less energy by mass, however make up this somewhat with Octane rating which allows beefy compression ratios
And also their stoichiometric ratio is alot richer coz they have shorter chains per mole
granite tundra
Why not?
because the last couple of years have emphasised how much value the OEMs put on alignment with their road car programmes
short ether
Didn't know about hydrogen + electric, that sounds interesting.
Also i remember seeing some solid hydrogen galets that you'd burn and it would release energy slowly, not like Zeppelin Hindenburg style
granite tundra
and e-fuels just haven't gained enough traction there, and also consider that a lot of the current emission regulations target emissions at the tailpipe
short ether
Biofuels still need land to be made, thats my concern about them.
Countries like Brazil will destroy rainforest to free the land for the required surface.. that's not a gain
(that's not exactly the scope of the channel)
short ether
So... What nose are they going with?
guess we'll have to wait next year
The full one sucks oof
granite tundra
i'd be surprised if it ends up looking like that
i get the feeling both are unnecessarily wide
short ether
I wonder what the story is with this model then
Coz this has a much more realistic looking nose imo
2009 noses are ew
abstract pawn
I found this which is apparently three variations that the FIA/F1 did
To show that Formula 1 is not becoming a spec series for 2022
Showing three different possible variations between the cars
short ether
Yeah coz they were talking about spec parts
Man people really care about those McLaren sidepods
Interesting that the blue leans into the outwash
abstract pawn
All three of the nose designs in the pictures you sent are apparently possible solutions
Because there is some freedom in length and design
granite tundra
the red one is the most likely design
if teams can get it to pass crash testing that is
zenith pumice
Would green be a likely design too?
short ether
Well that's the nose we were on about so...
median shoal
So... What nose are they going with?
Both are options
But teams will design their own too
short ether
I don't see how it would be likely unless crash testing requirements overpower the aerodynamic advantage
granite tundra
i'd be surprised to see the noses much wider than they are now
i'm not aware of the regs in that area mandating minimum dimensions, so it will likely be dictated by the crash tests
soft shadow
Does Turbo configurations affect the size of the engine? I've always wanted to ask this becoz how Split turbo engines looked visually smaller compared to Ferrari and Renault's design
short ether
Yes, because they can fit that turbo housing almost in the block on bith sides rather than shove it to the end of it
abstract pawn
With that 🅱️raindrian Newey
Did Adrian not criticize the new regulations?
Saying they were boring or something lol
soft shadow
He said it's too restrictive
short ether
I know but
unborn swallow
I mean, we had very wide noses before
thorny thistle
Why did they pick 0.8 litres per second for refuelling? Why not 1.0 litres?
short ether
I mean, we had very wide noses before
Yeah but that's hot
I know this was in Media but Horner seems to agree with muh sentiment
short ether
.
jolly patrol
agree with wolff on this
soft shadow
I've just realized.... if some countries are going for full electrification and banning gas powered cars in the future, would it affect the schedules of racing as well?
short ether
It can, we'll see when we get there
steep prism
I'll keep an eye on the development of hydrogen powered vehicles if I were them
abstract pawn
So, Hamilton mentioned Red Bull has been able to "extract more performance" out of the race starts and that it is something Mercedes have to work on.
But how do you "extract more performance" out of a race start?
Is it clutch-related, how your clutch release works or whatever? Or how you prepare the tires and brakes giving you a better launch?
Because I know at the start of 2019 for example, Hamilton had a couple of bad starts but then he changed the design of his clutch paddle and that fixed it.
But I have never heard anyone refer to it as "extract more performance" out of a race start, so just wondering if it means something specific and how you do it.
My friend mentioned something about LMP2 cars having "throttle maps" where like 30% throttle input gives you like 20% torque, and said maybe it has something to do with that.
But I do not think Formula 1 cars have "throttle maps"? At least I have never heard anyone talking about it, I just know they have torque maps.
crimson granite
F1 cars do have throttle mapping
i think
wait whats the difference between throttle maps and torque maps?
abstract pawn
No idea, hence why I am asking these questions..
crimson granite
rich gust
So they banned wheel covers because it made it harder to overtake
but they're returning for 2022 🤔
graceful sun
You don’t question fia 
short ether
But I do not think Formula 1 cars have "throttle maps"? At least I have never he...
Throttle maps are I assume the same thing as Torque maps, unless you mean Braking maps. These are part of engine modes where even tho the engine throttle response must be directly proportional to throttle input, there is some wiggle room on how that power curve is laid whether they need more even or peaky torque curves
slate basin
I don't understand how wheel covers make it harder to understand
short ether
Harder to overtake you mean?
feral vessel
Speaking of the wheel shrouds, are they considered more a part of the brake duct system or the wheel ?
What I'm suggesting here, is that are going to have an exploitation like Ferrari did back then since they were used to be considered a movable aero device.
feral vessel
So they banned wheel covers because it made it harder to overtake
I've commit to memory that they were solely removed because of them coming off at high speed.
short ether
Did that ever happen?
vital forge
