uh it should be braking zones
#f1-technical
short ether
O
granite tundra
this is what it looks like to me
last thing i found interesting
look at how much turbo RPMs affects SoC
granite tundra
lmao
yeah it's not not a particularly intuitive setup
i'm surprised at how much turbo speed affects soc
like.. 2.7x more at 11000 rpm vs 50000
short ether
Soc?
granite tundra
state of charge
granite tundra
so actually this begs another stupid question from me
do they run the turbo at a constant speed through the lap?
with the mgu-h taking the slack in both directions?
granite tundra
How much faster is 110,000rpm to 50,000?
2.2
but it also looks like regen is a bit more hampered so
short ether
They don't run it at the same speed all the time
granite tundra
yeah so i think that's an issue with the study
short ether
Because essentially what you have is an electric supercharger
granite tundra
because it's looking at SoC/recovery variations with a constant turbo speed
i think what they're doing is assuming the MGU-H is constantly holding the turbo at x rpm
short ether
The 50,000-80,000-110,000 are the redlines for each individual turbo mode
It just becomes an anti-lag to spool it up to that speed
short ether
And uses the MGU-H and Wastegates to hold it at that speed
granite tundra
so it's not constant speed throughout the lap, just at certain phases
short ether
Yeah
granite tundra
that makes sense
granite tundra
yeah that seemed like a big simplification to just model the turbo as always pushing 50k+
unfortunately they dont say where they've gotten the 0.3s lag from
it sounds reasonable, but they haven't numerically justified it
granite tundra
kr? What's this unit
i think kilo rotations per minute
short ether
Instead of saying RPM^-1,000
Well, it's confusing to use the prefix kilo for something else than a mass
granite tundra
lmao you'll like this sentence from a conclusion i've just read
"F1 should permit much more freedom in the definition
of the ICE and the energy recovery"
short ether
Well, it's confusing to use the prefix kilo for something else than a mass
Kilometre
granite tundra
"A real limit should be set to the maximum amount of
fuel to be used for a fixed distance race, and the engineers
should be, then, left free to develop the hybrid power unit
with, at the most, a prescribed displacement of the engine"
short ether
lmao you'll like this sentence from a conclusion i've just read
BRUH
granite tundra
hm i agree with this
granite tundra
tl;dr regs are too restrictive, teams get too much fuel. open up the regs, reduce the fuel allowance, put greater emphasis on hybrid recovery
wait hang on they disagree with you 
they want to keep the MGU-H
short ether
... Wait reduce the fuel?
granite tundra
yeah
their problem with it is that it's actually too much for what the cars are capable of
you could reasonably get significantly below 105 if you opened up the hybrid tech
which.. does make sense
that goes towards keeping car weight down as well
short ether
... Wha
granite tundra
here we go
they think 90kg is realistic
slower, but realistic
and that's without changing the hybrid
short ether
Cringe
I'd say jack up the fuel, with a better MGU-K, coz I'd go to alcohols anyway
But they're carbon neutral
granite tundra
yeah this doesn't consider a potential switch in the future
but as it stands, using the current fuel composition and taking into account a recovery increase, they're targeting 90kg as reasonable
basically they want to make everything less restrictive except for fuel on board, which would decrease
granite tundra
not super familiar with alcohols but i'd say that's a reasonable starting point
not too far off the energy content of gasoline
granite tundra
though they're denser
short ether
Yeah 802kg/m^3
granite tundra
i'm slowly building up what i'd like to see the 2025 regs look like
short ether
And also 113RON
granite tundra
so far i'm going like
*keep the v6 and single turbo
*ditch the mgu-H
*beef up the MGU-K to like.. 200hp/280nm, 6-8MJ recovery
*switch to alcohols
*maybe decrease the fuel onboard?
i don't think that would lead to a fundamental architecture change, but it's still sorting out a bunch of niggling problems the current power units have
short ether
That sounds reasonable
granite tundra
plus i don't really see a path away from the V6s aside from a V4
short ether
If you open the architecture, it's unlikely you see more exotic than inline 4s and v4s anyway
Refueling my gamers
N
granite tundra
depending on how difficult it is to get an i4 as a stressed member
granite tundra
er i'm not sure actually
granite tundra
i think V4s are better balanced?
soft shadow
The 919 tho...
short ether
One thing I'd want is too allow a full width, 120°V6, instead of a 90°V6
The 919 is 1 example of an engine layout that isn't really used anywhere else
It doesn't rev as high, and it's bigger displacement
soft shadow
Well this is in terms of Production cars but a reason why we rarely see V4s... taken from DriveTribe's article
"A V4 setup however has very rarely been used in car production, only finding its way under the bonnets of obscure and finely-niched vehicles. The main reason for this is the cost involved with developing and manufacturing a V-format engine over a straight engine block"
short ether
... Yeah
Plus the 919's is cross-plane
It's an oddly specific engine layout
But it was used to compromise the 8Mj system
soft shadow
The V4 could be a great alternative for V6 in terms of racing engines becoz less cylinders = less cost (I think?)
short ether
Not... Really
That's what Motorsport would like people to believe
But... A large, multi-cylinder engine will be less costly to develop than a tiny one
Tiny ones kill off competition just from being expensive since the 1.5L 1920's GP engines
soft shadow
Yeah... after observing stuff... the bigger engines produce more power just by having more cylinders, whilst having a tiny engine to make it produce equal power to big ones can cost a lot
short ether
... I wouldn't agree
Why not? You'd have an even amount of cylinders per bank active per cycle, 1 in our case. Right?
...
Yes
But an overlap is better
Of course it fires odd, because 90° is not a natural angle for a V6
But a firing overlap is better than one without
I'm not an expert, just curious.
So overlap is better, and the v6 doesn't generate that much vibrations compared to a v10 right? (Not saying we should go back tk v10 obv)
Hence why more cylinders are desirable
I do
Lol
... The V6 does
What?
You've got 2 inline 3's vs. 2 inline 5's
Hmm ye so 2-1 vs 3-2
The V10 is going to be smoother
Why didn't we have them before 1989 then
Because the V10 was always userped for the V12
Also the Audi Inline 5 exists
True
But like. It was v8 or v12 in the 60s-70s
And the Alfa Romeo V10 was in 1986
Which alfa Romeo engine?
That's not in f1 is it
And... Well the V10 started commercially as a Diesel thing in the 60's
Ah okok. Ye I'm catering to f1 strictly
Which team used this?
Made in 1986 for Ligier in 1987
Ok
But Ligier never used it
Coz Alfa pulled away, as Ligier just said their Inline 4 was clapped
So they used it for their 164 ProCar
But that series only had the Alfa built for it
So they wanted it for the SE 048SP, but Ferrari decided nah our V12 would be better
And then... Pulled it
This thing is just gorgeous
Looks very hot
But yeah... Also Honda made a V10 for 1982
The V10 had more teething
But for an F1 engine of about 300cc-350cc per cylinder, it's the best from what we've seen
What's your opinion on Honda going for a V12 in 91, having a very efficient V10 already
So that was before they figured turbo was the way to go? Interesting
Honda seems to always try lots of différent things
This point was more about how Smaller is not better
Or how layouts don't dictate which knowledge is applied where
I really like the 3.5L era as a key example of that
Yeah true
At some point everyone settled for a v10, but for a long time you had very good v8, v10 and v12 on the same grid
Well Yamaha made their V12 coz they thought F1 would be the best R&D ground for their engines
None of which are V12's
6's can be done, coz you can cut a V12 in half
4's can be done, coz you can cut a V8 in half
Just the 5-10 hadn't been done massively yet
But when it had, everyone jumped on it
soft shadow
Isn't the Yamaha basically just a modified Judd engine block?
short ether
The first Yamaha was a 5-Valve head Ford DFR
The OX88
The OX99, is their own V12
The OX10 was their own heads on JUDD GV3.5/JV3.0's
cerulean beacon
abstract pawn
Brake Balance at +3.0%
short ether
what about it?
short ether
Isn't that what Renault got penalised over? Because their car had assisted brake balance changes?
pale shell
yes but still doesn't make sense to just post it outta nowhere tbh
short ether
Where's the spooky easter egg?
cursive wraith
But is is pretty daring of Renault to post tht vid in the 1st place
abstract pawn
They said the system was not being used in that video I believe
short ether
pokemon 👀
nocturne dock
👀
hard pagoda
holy shit the wheel is so detailed
reef pine
Well, it wasn't going to be a circle with a button for the horn was it /s
cerulean beacon
wild escarp
abstract pawn
abstract pawn
lasagna floor
potent anchor
Would it be to make some of the air escape the first half of the floor?
short ether
I assumed it was a Group C strat of inducing air from the sides to make it useful
As they can't seal it anymore
potent anchor
They changed the rake of the cars and they made them higher this year?
wintry light
loophole
short ether
downforce
short ether
I know that this is a kinda loophole, but it's what it achieves to generate downforce
obsidian abyss
jesus this looks very weird
short ether
Is it meant to make a Vortex to generate so now they don't need the floor vents later on?
Or is it meant to make a series of them to get more flowing through the diffuser?
wintry pollen
Under Alpine's top air intake, slightly above and behind the driver's head, is that an air intake hole too?
wintry pollen
wintry pollen
short ether
Yeah THAT THING IS GIRTHY
That'll be an inlet for radiators/coolers, yeah
I assume to take profile out of the sidepods for better packaging
granite tundra
Is it meant to make a Vortex to generate so now they don't need the floor vents ...
i reckon they're just trying to seal the floor downstream a little more, maybe trying to condition flow a bit for the strakes they've got close to the rear tyre
i imagine they're trying to compensate for the removal of the punchouts to keep tyre squirt at a reasonably manageable level
though they're starting it pretty early..
abstract pawn
I have a question for you @granite tundra
Well my friend asked me this but I was not sure
And I figured if anyone you would probably know
granite tundra
go for it
abstract pawn
Would Mercedes be allowed to run one specification of their car now during the tests, and then during their filming day next Friday, could they put new/other parts on the car?
Like if they are still hiding stuff, could they put a new floor onto the car for the filming day and basically do the testing of the floor during that?
granite tundra
yep, as long as the parts and car are compliant with the regs, they can mix and match as much as they want
abstract pawn
Cool, you reckon that is something Mercedes could have up their sleeve?
Hiding stuff for even later lol
granite tundra
but they won't do it for the sake of hiding performance- the data you get from a filming day is pitiful compared to even a single session in testing
100km is barely enough to even realise you have problems, let alone trying to build up a plan to correct them
bottas alone completed 1/3rd of a filming day in the morning
merc have already had 2.6 filming day's worth today, even with their problems
plus that's on relevant compounds
short ether
The aero rakes on cares, are a mesh of pitot tubes are simple that measure the stagnation pressure of their airflow as it comes to a standstill
Static pressure: think air pressure
stagnatition presure is very similar , but is the pressure a generally moving fluid exerts as it comes to a standstill.
zinc parcel
Ahh yes thermofluids
granite tundra
The aero rakes on cares, are a mesh of pitot tubes are simple that measure the s...
this isn't really right, what you care about when building up an aero map is dynamic/impact pressure, not stagnation pressure
which you can achieve through measuring stagnation pressure, but it's not what your target end result is
zinc parcel
Static - stagnation p equals dynamic p no?
zinc parcel
So velocity can be calculated
granite tundra
normally that's done with a transducer in the pitot itself
but the implication that they're there to measure stagnation pressure only isn't really right, because what you're actually measuring/after is dynamic pressure
zinc parcel
Yeah was thinking that as well
granite tundra
technically it should probably be impact pressure since you're getting into the realm of compressibility
but that's more of a nomenclature/naming thing
i think i've only ever used dynamic pressure, not impact
zinc parcel
Same during experiments
short ether
this isn't really right, what you care about when building up an aero map is dyn...
Yes but dynamic pressure is calculated from the difference of static pressure stagnation prursssure
We are more or less agreeing it's just a difference with how it was explained
I agree in itself stagnation pressure isn't very useful
short ether
They've done a pre-2009 where the diffuser strakes are creating a central section
zinc parcel
short ether
Finally looking at the article as to why the engine bulge was so big is interesting
short ether
But like...
I don't get the insistence on synthetic petrols made from other things, if you could go to something else that... Oh unless they used the Aussie geezers infrastructure
short ether
... A Mercedes, who's design is more expensive and intricate, has a cleaner wake than a Williams
Who knew?
drifting smelt
Why would a car designer care about the wake?
If you can generate more down-force with less drag, a clean wake or not is irrelevant.
It can actually be a point in Williams favor, indicating more powerful vortex-generation. But who knows.
short ether
Why would a car designer care about the wake?
It is actually a benefit to reduce it because a larger wake means a greater drag. However, this can actually be a benefit to Williams as it means a greater slipstream which maybe better on strsights, but a greater advantage in corners due to more dirty air
It's an uncouth advantage considering this is what F1 wants to fix properly, but it is still one
drifting smelt
larger wake means a greater drag
Larger yeah, if we just consider laminar flow. F1 cars try to generate vortexes for local high/low pressure zones along the bodywork. How these vortexes behave behind the car is uh, pretty complex and is hard to say for certain.
One could consider that remaining disturbances in the air after the car has passed means a waste in the conversion between the drag and downforce but
It's been a while since I did any fluid dynamics. I just think it is not a certain that a cleaner wake indicates a better design.
short ether
Well it just depends on objectives, doesn't it?
drifting smelt
The objective is almost always more down-force with as little drag as possible. Not making the car smoother to follow.
river zinc
gleaming pebble
https://twitter.com/ScarbsTech/status/1370684864081584128?s=20
I never knew why no one else saw that the renault air box has always been huge
short ether
ye it';s been huge since they came up with the flat oval air intake i'd say?
abstract pawn
It has already been chonk but it is definitely chonkier this year
abstract pawn
Yeah they have
short ether
They want up/inwash sidepods to get to the rear wing, to help with future regs, and also just their foundation, and as a result they pack the radiators and coolers in the top, which they see the aero benefits to outweigh the slight centre of gravity defecit
crimson granite
So is it true that teams with higher have been less affected by the new regs than the teams with low rake?
short ether
yes,apparently so
crimson granite
Like how tho?
short ether
higher rake cars have a greater volume of air passing beneath the floor which should technically mean that the rule change hits them harder
crimson granite
higher rake cars have a greater volume of air passing beneath the floor which sh...
Ahh okay
short ether
but I assume that the higher rake produces a greater pressure difference
crimson granite
I get that but like how
short ether
thereby succing the air in
granite tundra
Like how tho?
on paper at least, they shouldn't be
a high rake lets you run a higher angle on the diffuser and expand the airflow at a more critical angle, over a larger volume
short ether
thereby succing the air in
lessening the amount of velocity change of the air under the low pressure conditions
granite tundra
which can accelerate the air more and give you a larger region of low pressure
however, that's reliant on actually being able to seal the rear of the floor and the diffuser, otherwise you're going to lose out on performance
so on paper, you're losing a bunch of the tools you could use to seal the diffuser- namely extending the floor outboard and (partially) through the use of slots/vents
short ether
yes but does the high air pressure cause a region of negative pressure in relation to the area outside it? thereby pulling air into the diffuser?
granite tundra
hwat
short ether
lol
granite tundra
you'd have to explain that, i'm not following
worthy monolith
however, that's reliant on actually being able to seal the rear of the floor and...
seal the floor? like using side skirts?
zenith pumice
Wouldn’t there be higher pressure under the car
granite tundra
seal the floor? like using side skirts?
not through side skirts, partly through ride height and vortex generators along the edge of the floor
zenith pumice
Hence causing air to push down on the car
crimson granite
I thought it was high preesure?
granite tundra
Wouldn’t there be higher pressure under the car
other way round, low pressure underneath, high pressure on top
zenith pumice
Ah interesting
crimson granite
Ohh
short ether
high pressure under and low over is a plane wing
granite tundra
think about like.. a balloon
the high pressure air on the inside of the balloon is exerting a force 'towards' the low pressure region outside
zenith pumice
Ye
granite tundra
so the floor and diffuser accelerates the air, giving it a low pressure
whereas the overbody airflow is a higher pressure, which is forcing the car into the ground
zenith pumice
Makes sense
crimson granite
so on paper, you're losing a bunch of the tools you could use to seal the diffus...
So any idea how Red Bull may have exploited something else?
granite tundra
well at this point it's only a theory
but on paper at least, a high rake angle gives you more potential headroom in terms of maximum downforce across the (rear) floor
BUT that's very dependent on actually being able to seal the floor enough, which has become harder for 2021
granite tundra
so like.. IF you're able to keep the diffuser sealed (which is a pretty big if), a high rake design does potentially give you more opportunity to recover lost downforce
crimson granite
Interesting
granite tundra
For the next regs will high rake be a viable option?
personally i doubt it, the diffuser geometry for 2022 should be less dependent on rake angle
granite tundra
plus the method for sealing the floor is sorta changing, so it's hard to tell whether it would end up making a high-rake design more or less easy
granite tundra
Did you study aero or smn?
yep, i'm completing a degree in aerospace engineering
crimson granite
Ohh damn thats cool
granite tundra
despite kerbal's doubts 
short ether
Well there's also the idea that they use the rippled leading edges to pull air in from the sides
Creating more air to flow through the diffuser
Or to use the to vent out, which can still make vortices on the floors... Oh wait vortices spill in not out
short ether
maybe it's because of rbr's ramp-like sidepods and new merc-style rear wishbone[that frees up more space behind the car] would allow a greater amount of air to flow over the diffuser?
dense hazel
plus the method for sealing the floor is sorta changing, so it's hard to tell wh...
oh yes, it will be more curved now
just like the 1970s or 1980s?
granite tundra
just like the 1970s or 1980s?
eh, not really
the floor still isn't really being sealed as aggressively as it was back in the era of 'true' ground effect cars
you've got the 'vanes' doing a lot of the sealing back towards the rear of the floor, and since they're mounted as part of the suspension they're less vulnerable to ride height changes
and i'd still expect there to be some work done to seal the forward floor with the usual VGs, probably just not to the same extent that we're seeing now
there's also some outboard straking across the length of the floor, but those will probably be less effective than the rear vanes since they don't extend down as much and should be a bit more susceptible to ride height changes
soft shadow
With the 2022 aero, I wonder if Rakes are gonna have a massive impact on the underbody of the car
short ether
It depends on where the rules allow the lowest point of the floor to be
short ether
What are the best Twitter pages to see technical detail of F1? Also people that are interested in it would be appreciated. I am done with all the drama jez
abstract pawn
What are the best Twitter pages to see technical detail of F1? Also people that ...
Twitter
Twitter
Both Scarbs and Sam have quite interesting technical insight
short ether
the first 2 i already follow
reef pine
Giorgio Piola
abstract pawn
Also our very own, TooLowPullUp
reef pine
"that" is a person
short ether
sorry 😂
reef pine
TooLowPullUp is our resident expert
short ether
Is that a Tuga I see? 🇵🇹 👀
Yes it is
pale shell
nice
short ether
TooLowPullUp is our resident expert
But on twitter?
reef pine
no, he is here
granite tundra
TooLowPullUp is our resident expert
absolutely fucking not
short ether
Visitor expert?
granite tundra
resident idiot pls
short ether
Ok
reef pine
resident idiot pls
idiot expert then
granite tundra
expert in idiots
short ether
For 7 generations
abstract pawn
I have been thinking about this for a bit, and I figured this would be the right channel to ask.
How come the size of the sharkfin are different throughout teams running the same engine and stuff?
Like Mercedes and Aston Martin have the same/similar sized sharkfin, while McLaren and Williams have really small ones in comparison.
Also how Ferrari and Haas also have same/similar sized sharkfins, while Alfa Romeo's has always seemingly been smaller.
Why is that?
Is it more about cooling, and not the packaging?
pale shell
Im guessing some of it may be because of the "philosophy" of the car itself?
If they want to maybe idk be faster in high speed corners or just faster in the straights
Or maybe it's just what it works with their car since despite the same engine they have different chassis
violet smelt
the packaging and cooling comes hand in hand. the tighter you package the car the less air is moved around inside and thus causing more heat.
violet kernel
hello
granite tundra
How come the size of the sharkfin are different throughout teams running the sam...
good question actually
predictably, the answer is "it's complicated"
you could probably break the difference down into two different areas- why customer teams have different packaging compared to their supplier, and why they have different packaging compared to other customers
for the first one, at the end of the day, although the hardware supplied is identical- the supplier will obviously always have the best opportunity to shrink the packaging. they're more flexible in adapting the architecture of the PU itself, survival cell, cooling ancillaries etc; at the end of the day, they're building an engine for their car first and foremost
the difference between customer teams is where the potential causes can get a bit muddy
a lot of the time, it's simply a difference in priorities. some cars may benefit disproportionately more from a tightly packaged engine, while others might not see the gains as much
at any point, it will be a trade-off between cooling and aerodynamic performance across the rear of the car
so as an example, alfa for instance may feel that their aerodynamic philosophy benefits from a tighter arse to the point where it's worth taking the performance (cooling penalty) of the smaller packaging
in terms of cooling requirements.. across customer teams, it should broadly be the same, barring any difference in philosophies, like sidepod inlet design as an example
so at that point, it will most likely just come down to how far individual teams are willing to push the packaging in exchange for the performance benefit it brings
granite tundra
no worries, it's quite a lot of words to say basically the same thing funkasize is saying
short ether
so as an example, alfa for instance may feel that their aerodynamic philosophy b...
Imma just laugh on this one
short ether
so as an example, alfa for instance may feel that their aerodynamic philosophy b...
Just a comparison between Ferrari and Alfa
paper wingBOT
Congrats @short ether, you're now on lap 5
south condor
Hi,new here, can someone plz explain what changed in 2021 regs about tires choices during a race weekend??
cinder brook
Teams were allowed to choose how many sets of softs, mediums and hards they wanted for a particular weekend. That isn't an option anymore. All teams get the same number of sets of each compound.
upper ivy
wasn't that already the case last year?
kindred bramble
wasn't that already the case last year?
i think you could pick between a softer selection, a harder selection, and a balanced selection of tyres
south condor
wasn't that already the case last year?
That what I thought also, like 8 softs, 4 mediums and 2 hards!
modern reef
im kinda new too f1 , where can i learn the nerd stuff of f1?
soft shadow
Here
short ether
here, on youtube or twitter
soft shadow
This channel is literally tech nerd euphoria
short ether
On youtube you could check Chain Bear F1. He explains the basics really well
soft shadow
Our resident expert idiot here (as he calls himself) is TooLowPullUp
modern reef
k thx
zenith pumice
Expert on idiots
short ether
takes one to know one
zenith pumice
Lol
worthy monolith
im kinda new too f1 , where can i learn the nerd stuff of f1?
Good source: http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/
short ether
short ether
@rosf1design on instagram
short ether
Interesting how McLaren rounds out their diffuser exit
Yet Mercedes have it squared
short ether
The MCL35M's diffuser looks more complex than the W12's, so it's almost certain that we'll see a new floor recently.
worthy monolith
The RB16B is similar-ish to Merc's squared diffuser
short ether
The RB16B is similar-ish to Merc's squared diffuser
If I remember correctly the majority of diffusers are squared
zenith tartan
Is there anything unique about this? Or how they have designed the air channels underneath?
https://twitter.com/AlbertFabrega/status/1374819423362686977?s=20
fallow zodiac
abstract pawn
Why'd you tag me
ripe sorrel
Why'd you tag me
wrong person, sry
like last year with the brake duct, they just copied the design?
reef pine
do other teams buy aero parts or just bite off the designs?
I do not know that, but iirc teams have to build the car by themselves, they cannot buy bodywork
I could just be blabbering for all I know
this is TooLowPullUp's area of expertise
granite tundra
all aerodynamic components are considered listed team components, meaning that their design and use are wholly restricted to a single team/contractor
reef pine
ahh the man himself
granite tundra
correction, most*
there are some exemptions and the regs are a bit fuzzy on whether stuff like DRS assemblies are considered aerodynamic components
short ether
You can see where the bulge comes from there
although the bulge on the McLaren isn't very pronounced
abstract pawn
obsidian abyss
short ether
What're your guys' actual thoughts on the current engines bar the MGU-H
short ether
They are way too complicated and expensive
they're the most complex and probably most efficient car engines ever
Bruh
native tulip
reef pine
the H?
upbeat matrix
yep
short ether
Yes
upbeat matrix
mclarens
abstract pawn
Mercedes
upbeat matrix
there's a video
upbeat matrix
mclaren is mercedes power, no?
reef pine
mclaren is mercedes power, no?
yes but there is literally a Mercedes in the background
seems to be the W10 or W09 from the silhouette
reef pine
ahh true, missed that
mint sand
so it must be the W08
reef pine
or is it a frankencar?
mint sand
no that's the mercedes hall of fame thing
mint sand
not a problem!!!
clear trout
they're the most complex and probably most efficient car engines ever
they are the most efficient ever, just look at thermal losses compared to average cars and even other racing cars
they run at like 50% efficiency compared to 25-30%
short ether
MGU-H be the most annoying thing ever because it does its' purpose well
gusty light
scuse me
reef pine
lmao
tacit bridge
short ether
Well like it's alot of the reason why the Thermal efficiency is so good
but also alot of the reason why the Engine dev price can set 4 families for life
rare geyser
Toyota hybrid road car has 40% efficiency
upbeat matrix
clear trout
Toyota hybrid road car has 40% efficiency
Which car? Most ICEs lose a third of their power to friction and another third to heat. F1 cars preserve and use the heat and that’s how it’s more efficient. I don’t know any road car that has thermal harvesting
cerulean beacon
short ether
me wanting to get into the physics and shit and how a car works:
also me not knowing wtf any of this means:
pale shell
thx for explain 
pale shell
Will do 😎
short ether
Ay bro just ask
tacit bridge
yes
wintry pollen
https://youtu.be/UW6f7CkQ90U
wait i thought this was new video
does every f1 car have 360 camera ?
zenith pumice
They can be fitted with them
wintry pollen
so not every car has it in the race?
wintry pollen
yeah wouldnt 360 cams only on certain cars makes it unfair
granite tundra
every car has to have the 360 cam
everyone needs to have the 360 cam and t-cam, and optionally have the shoulder, halo and fw cam
then you've got the ADR high-speed, which is always mounted and recording
short ether
Bro get the 360° Indy Cams
astral pasture
Yeah I think 360 cams would impair the aero
FIA taking notes
don't know now but they were not implementing 360 because they couldn't broadcast them live
the ones in Indy used to be rotating cams, which is not the same as 360
360 technology is not good enough yet
low res
and looks too much like a fisheye lens, but they can fix that
dusky elk
short ether
Ah yes, English
void ibex
alright everyone I need some help, I have an 8 page honors research paper that I have to write for one of my engineering courses, i'd really like to research some f1 technology but I'm not exactly sure what's out there that has the most information available on the internet, any ideas?
short ether
what technical details are you looking for
void ibex
nothing in particular, I was thinking about researching the current engines and how teams have optimized them but that might be a little tough to find info on
short ether
Well like...
Advancements in things like F1 engine changes for revs is an idea I love to explore
Piston coatings, rings, valve materials and pneumatics
Idk if that's an idea
void ibex
I was thinking about writing about some of the most dominant cars too, like the W11 or R25 or any others
And why they were so dominant^
left quest
pretty good topic to write about
if you were writing about the BGP you could talk about its diffuser
void ibex
I was thinking about that too
left quest
im pretty sure the R25 had some suspension thing
short ether
ye the R25 had the mass damper in the nose
left quest
a lot of F1 youtubers give some insight on those kinds of things
short ether
interesting tech
left quest
I think driver61 has some videos about features on cars that made it so good
short ether
Didn't the R26 get it on the rear too?
void ibex
yeah the only thing is that I dont want to be referencing youtube vids in my paper lol
short ether
I wouldn't recommend Driver 61 0ersonally
short ether
Piston coatings, rings, valve materials and pneumatics
was the 1986 Renault the first engine with pneumatic valves
I get too frustrated with this detail issues
left quest
I wouldn't recommend Driver 61 0ersonally
true
but if you want some info I guess you could give it a try
void ibex
yeah I think ive seen a few of his vids
short ether
There's a couple good PDF's on the BMW and Honda engine developments up to 2009
void ibex
Ok awesome, thanks for the info\
void ibex
oh that awesome
short ether
Like a used one, and took it apart to show different components
void ibex
ill definitely do some digging there
short ether
Like said Pneumatic valves and gear based/torsion bar Camshaft Dampers
worthy monolith
I was thinking about writing about some of the most dominant cars too, like the ...
I recommend checking out the Formula 1 dictionary, here is one about the mass damper: http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/mass_damper.html#:~:text=The mass damper is a,conjunction with which it work.
void ibex
Sweet, I think the mass damper is so cool I’d really like to research it if there’s enough info
native tulip
I was thinking about writing about some of the most dominant cars too, like the ...
I get what you mean but the R25 wasn't really dominant was it 🤷🏽♂️
worthy monolith
Nah the MP4-20 was faster in 2005
void ibex
I guess Innovative would be a better term
short ether
MP4/4 is a dominating car, and you can easily compare it to the other cars of the season to figure out why
Renault had a secret launch control. not sure they still did in 2005 but worth looking into that as well
worthy monolith
The MP4-20 was aerodynamically and horsepower wise the faster car but since it was a Newey car everything was pushed to the margins like absolute minimum weight, minimum cooling for the engine, etc but Renault had the best electronic systems with the best launch control system.
short ether
ye, electronics was always Enstone's team strongest point
short ether
The MP4-20 was aerodynamically and horsepower wise the faster car but since it w...
... Launch Control was banned in 2005
worthy monolith
banned but there was talk about Renault somehow circumventing the ban by having a software modulate the clutch to achieve a similar thing to the launch control. After which everyone started doing it, they just did it first.
shit launch and then boom
short ether
Yeah they were doing it I think first in 2003 when it was still allowed they were the best and transferred some of it into 2004
I don't remember when launch was banned, actually
short ether
Bro to save costs against what?
worthy monolith
Development costs, I'm guessing.
short ether
Well it's like bruh they already have TCS
cursive wraith
For Launching TCS sucks lol
short ether
abstract pawn
Is there any reason why the McLaren onboard still has the "Renault whine" sound?
short ether
mic placement, but haven't checked any of their onboards
abstract pawn
Considering none of the other Mercedes powered teams have it, and I supposed all customer teams use the same Mercedes turbo and stuff
Or is it the whine from the gearbox that is making the whine sound?
I do not remember if McLaren use the Mercedes gearbox or just the engine
mint sand
pretty sure McLaren make their own gearbox
short ether
pretty sure they do their own gearbox
abstract pawn
Yeah that might explain it then
grand silo
For Launching TCS sucks lol
How
cursive wraith
It is better to have tcs off while launching rather than on
grand silo
It is better to have tcs off while launching rather than on
For f1 no way
Maybe a road car it’s faster with tcs off
late sparrow
what's tcs?
green folio
traction control system
cursive wraith
Sometimes the TCS slows the car af just to have better grip while starting
I might be wrong
short ether
It looks like you are wrong
abstract pawn
Is there any specific reason why the ratio from 6th to 7th gear would be so much shorter than the others?
jolly patrol
Don't think it's shorter than the gears before it's more 7th and 8th that are both longer
pale shell
6th and 7th are def. closer
zenith pumice
Is there any specific reason why the ratio from 6th to 7th gear would be so much...
Perhaps just to get into 7th faster which gives you better performance
pale shell
I think it's for certain corners like Turn 5 and Turn 6 in the RBR track or in others with corners alike
pale shell
and 7th to get a better acceleration out of corners that need 6th
abstract pawn
It seems like it is only that short in France and Austria from what I can hear and see
I guess it might depend on how long you hold the gear on the lights
Because at the start of the lap here, it looks like it is as short from 6th to 7th but he is holding on the lights longer
grand silo
Is there any specific reason why the ratio from 6th to 7th gear would be so much...
At higher speed being in teh correct rpm range matters more, out of low speed corners youre traction limited anyways
native tulip
question - Why can't teams just simulate the airflow around the car in some kind of software instead of doing so much testing? Is technology just not good enough for that yet?
short ether
CFD time is also limited
reef pine
CFD tech is very good, its not limited I believe
granite tundra
question - Why can't teams just simulate the airflow around the car in some kind...
you're thinking of CFD, which has been around for decades
the two restricting factors to it are the limitations on how much teams can use it, and the fact that CFD still leans heavily on real-world track time for correlation
and it's ultimately not as effective as wind tunnel time or physical testing
clear trout
Or is it the whine from the gearbox that is making the whine sound?
it does sound like straight cut gears
short ether
How did the high rake cars get positively affected by the 2021 regs?
like RB
and any other car that's high rake
granite tundra
How did the high rake cars get positively affected by the 2021 regs?
my personal theory is that despite losing rear floor area, it wasn't actually as hard to keep the rear and the diffuser sealed as everyone was expecting
so red bull (and probably everyone) were able to keep a decent amount of sealing.. in which case, a high-rake car gives you more potential to recover lost rear downforce
but honestly that's just an armchair theory.. i don't think anyone in the teams is quite sure why they've ended up gaining/losing
another possible theory is that high-rake cars were less reliant on the slots/floor punchouts for sealing or performance.. in which case, the outright loss of them isn't going to be as hard to deal with
short ether
Interesting
granite tundra
but that's total conjecture
short ether
the 2 Merc cars aren't the cars with the least amount of rake, are they? they were probably the ones relying the most on the floor slots to seal the airflow tho
zenith pumice
it wasn't actually as hard to keep the rear and the diffuser sealed as everyone was expecting
Do you know why this is? Or does nobody know
granite tundra
frankly i have no idea
we've seen some aggressive straking to try and help with squirt and sealing to some extent.. could just be you're still able to extract quite a lot of performance in terms of sealing at the rear
short ether
what does "sealing" mean
granite tundra
but i doubt very few people actually know what's happened exactly
zenith pumice
Sealing is for the venturi channels iirc
To just suck the car into the ground I assume
short ether
like ground effect but a lot less effective?
granite tundra
what does "sealing" mean
you basically don't want to let the different flow regions across the car at a pressure differential mix with each other too much
zenith pumice
yeah if you don't have a good seal you won't get much downforce
short ether
you basically don't want to let the different flow regions across the car at a p...
would that cause an unstable car?
zenith pumice
It would cause a car to have less downforce
granite tundra
so if you're not sealing the floor as an example, you're seeing a drop in relative pressure, air isn't accelerating and staying there properly, an increase in drag etc.
short ether
sealing is when 2 different environments can't communicate
granite tundra
would that cause an unstable car?
potentially, yes
short ether
ahh
zenith pumice
because if you mix pressure zones then there's no downforce created is there
short ether
the air under the car can't escape on the side of the car, because there's a seal
zenith pumice
Yep
granite tundra
sort of, what you're doing is reducing the effectiveness of the low-pressure zone
granite tundra
and there's a drag penalty as well
zenith pumice
I see
granite tundra
but it sort of feeds into the diffuser as well, because diffuser performance affects flow upstream of it, not just downstream
and that's also dependent on keeping it sealed
granite tundra
but honestly, on paper, i can't really give you a reason why high-rake cars are less impacted
because they actually should be
short ether
In a theoreitcal standpoint they should
obtuse hinge
i thought it was the whole wing concept
zenith pumice
So I have a question, how does rake affect downforce generation?
Does it even affect it
granite tundra
yes, what rake lets you do is improve diffuser performance
because you're able to run a more aggressive geometry with high rake, which accelerates the air more
you've also got a larger volume of low-pressure air, which increases downforce
zenith pumice
So why do some teams stick to low-rake? Is it because of the shape of the diffuser?
granite tundra
high rake designs have historically been a lot harder to seal or get consistent performance from
short ether
So I have a question, how does rake affect downforce generation?
I think it's like how the floor and the diffusers are generating that rear downforce
bc Merc have shortened their diffusers and simplified the floor, they don't have enough rear downforce for the car and thats why it was so unstable during pre-season testing a lot of the time
granite tundra
so the performance ceiling for a low-rake car might be lower, but it's also easier to extract performance from that philosophy in the first place
short ether
Newey explains it in his book, high rake is much more difficult to set up correctly
zenith pumice
So ideally a middle ground or a 'middle-rake' if there is such a thing is beneficial right? Best of both worlds (maybe aerodynamics don't work like that)
granite tundra
middle-rake is definitely a thing, if anything there isn't just 'high rake' and 'low rake'
and comparatively, everyone is running reasonably high rake
even merc have somewhat high rake compared to a totally neutral car
short ether
even merc have somewhat high rake compared to a totally neutral car
huh
zenith pumice
It's just lower comparitively to other teams yeah?
granite tundra
yeah
idk what it is atm.. something like 1.5-2deg?
part of the issue is also that a long wheelbase makes it a little bit harder to get away with a high rake
which is why the trend we've been seeing since 2017 is long wheelbase/low rake vs short wheelbase/high rake
it really does confuse me that low rake has lost out though, i would have put money on it being the other way round
obtuse hinge
do did mclaren find a way to improve df wth their new diffuser?
granite tundra
that's what it looks like
hot bronze
cant really tell by how much tho
granite tundra
either through outright increasing the downforce the diffuser is contributing to, or by sealing it better and giving it more 'consistent' rear df
i'd be leaning towards the latter but i haven't actually looked at their diffuser too much so that's just me guessing
obtuse hinge
it really does confuse me that low rake has lost out though, i would have put mo...
fond an artice from the race about this but idk if its what you want
granite tundra
not read that before, but he's pretty much said the exact same thing
you'd expect low rake to do better.. but it's possible that the extra angle/volume of the diffuser afforded by high rake is offsetting the losses
short ether
wait I have a thoery
what if the Honda PU is actually heavier than it would usually be?
bc a heavier rear means that it pushes the rear of the car more towards the back
which should mean that there is a higher grip on the rear
which can balance out the grip on the front of the Red Bull car
bc that car is more front end
abstract pawn
Sam Collins on F1 TV Tech Talk said they think the rear instability of Red Bull last year was due to a poor gearbox casing
rich gust
short ether
Why would you think so?
smoky trout
If this were going at 12,000 RPM, I would like to see how the materials handle the impact forces and what kind of materials they use for this
short ether
But why have irregular impact speeds with unbalanced weighted gears when you have constant mesh ones?
short ether
I can read most of it, I just wanna know what PO is
Tho actually label a bunch coz I realise I'm not the ony one here, nor did I post it
pale shell
Pressure.... O--- idk?
granite tundra
ok so from top down..
P0- not sure. 5.9 bar seems too high for turbo boost.
V0- won't be volume of fuel used/inject, see the lower ones. maybe these two are pressure/volume for the fuel system
nMGUH- obviously current mgu-h rotational speed
pBoost- should be turbo boost pressure
TExL/TExR- exit temperatures for something.. left and right??
dmFFM- should be mass flow rate of fuel as it's going through the fuel flow meter
dmInj- fuel flow rate being injected?
mIllegal- potentially looking at current fuel flow rate compared to long-run engine mapping, seeing if that puts you over the legal amount. sort of like a delta?
Nlap- again obvious, number of laps completed OR current lap
tLastLap- last lap time
SOC- battery state of charge
FC_FFM- i think fuel mass that has been through the flow meter so far?
FC_INJ- fuel that has been injected? there will be a different depending on how injection/collection would work
Total- no fucking clue. this isn't FC_FFM + FC_INJ so maybe the total mass of fuel that's left the bladder?
TotalRace- no clue again
TotalTeam- ditto
this is general telemetry. so you've got stuff like current car speed, throttle status, gear, engine revs, oil temps/pressure, boost values and pressures throughout the engine etc.
short ether
Total race I assume is the fuel consumed over the course of the race, whereas the Total Team was including pre-race
granite tundra
maybe if totalteam is for both cars.. there's a big gap though
actually.. maybe it is
im wondering if P0 is pressure of smaller fuel feed pumps actually within the survival cell/fuel bag?
short ether
I asked a certain persion, but I assumed it was Fuel Rail Pressure/Volume
granite tundra
that's my assumption as well
short ether
Yeah it's gotta be lap 1 when the previous lap, unless a safety car, took 342.47 seconds
granite tundra
depends on what nLap is
whether that's number of laps already completed, or the lap you're currently on
if it's the latter, nLap 1 would likely be an out lap
isnt 6 bar way too low for fuel rail pressure?
could be pressure going into the rail
short ether
Oh I thought the injection pressure was the several hundred bar one
granite tundra
where are you seeing several hundred bar?
short ether
Because fuel injection pressure of BMw V10's was 180Bar with manifold injection
granite tundra
fuel injection pressure will be in that region, not 6bar
i'm wondering if that's maybe pressure as it's entering the rail?
short ether
Yes, but I assumed the pressure is ramped up in the injector itself due to the teeny holes
granite tundra
TExL and TExR.. not sure what they could be if not left and right
but in the context of the turbo/mgu-h.. idk
short ether
I thought it could be exhaust temperature for each Manifold bank
However each one has a 100-200 degree difference
It might be uhm... No Oil temp would never be near that high
Turbo/Wastegate temps?
granite tundra
thats what i thought as well.. but why L and R?
and if it is left and right.. what exit component of the charging system has a left and right?
but like you said, if its L and R then the temp difference is super high
short ether
Humst
granite tundra
im pretty confident p0 and v0 is initial pressure and volume of fuel thats left the bladder
it would make sense
the highest fuel reading would be immediately leaving the tank, then past the first ffm, then what's injected
short ether
Wait
Oil Pressure
Wait nevermind you have vacuum
I was thinking like Oil or Water pressure and volume
granite tundra
yeah im trying to think what else it could be
then again if it's fuel.. why is it given in litres?
short ether
Coz I assume in fuel lines it's given in volume because of possible leaks, whereas is KG weight is based on sensors in the bladder
granite tundra
maybe
though wouldn't you have more luck identifying leaks based on pressure, not volume?
especially since you've got god knows how many components/stations for the fuel to end up in, in varying amounts
short ether
Because you still have pressure being sent if it leaks on return
granite tundra
fair point
granite tundra
from a logical perspective as well, that seems like an all-up/'quick glance' panel
so fuel info as it leaves the bladder is probably a good position to record and display
short ether
Big hunst
short ether
Line, not rail
granite tundra
plus i'd expect it to be leaving the bag at a pressure around 5-10bar anyway
short ether
Coz the Bosch HDP 5-LW's go to 500bar
granite tundra
yeah defo not rail exit
short ether
Aight
granite tundra
wait i think its bullshit
actually yeah that makes no sense
my logic was maybe it was including time through the pits or not crossing the timing line after one lap
which shouldn't be possible
i'd say maybe this is done during winter testing
wait it couldnt be testing
time on screen is 1:35
lunch break during testing is 1-2
short ether
Well that's why I assumed it was Formation lap
Because it'd also include stopping and waiting at the lights
granite tundra
nlap is 2 tho
and 6 mins is too long even for a formation lap
its definitely not a formation lap
time is wrong, the gp started at 3.10 local time last year
got it
fp2
wait no
i think it might actually be testing
ok i have no clue what session this was in
vernal elk
How much downforce does a FE car make compared to a F1 car?
short ether
I'd assume like... 350-500kg maybe? Not a huge amount but the diffusers are beefy and they can reach 280kmh/174mph
abstract pawn
Gasly getting an explanation on how to restart the car using the ERS
Suppose someone might find that interesting
pale shell
Holy shit that takes a "bit"
tame holly
Jesus Hamilton p18 we usually see him in p1 lol
tacit bridge
it was saturday practice when that was recorded
short ether
I assume what's happened is P0 is reset, P1 and 2 are start start stages, and the Overtake also serves as the start button because the MGU-K is essentially a big ol starter motor
pale shell
They use P1 and P0 to stop also so I doubt P0 is reset
Normally It's P1 when they're almost stopped and P0 when they fully stop
tacit bridge
isnt P1 like ignition
abstract pawn
When the car is normal and running, they are in P2 ignition mode
To "turn the car fully off" they have to switch from P2 to P1, then to another switch from P1 to P0.
P0 is when the car is fully off, steering wheel, dash and radio all turned off, nothing.
P1 is when car has electrics on, able to radio but no PU power.
P2 is the mode whereby PU is switched/to-be switched on.
That's the switch
pale shell
oh interesting
short ether
Bro I banged my assumption
I love how complicated it sounds, when it just means turn it off and on again
native tulip
cursive wraith
Lol Ferrari facing a top speed decrease even more
viscid turret
The downforce reducing modifications probably reduced their drag
While other teams found other ways to get the lost downforce back and due to that got more drag
So I guess this graph also gives a rough idea of which teams did the most modifications to get that downforce back and due to that increased the drag
Not sure tho
void ibex
huge jump for alpine wow
modern reef
how mucuh power does the f1 engine loose in mexico due to the altitude
tulip lodge
this article gives a decent insight: https://f1.com/3wCxx7S
short ether
The pressure, dependant on weather, gives an atmospheric pressure of 11.1-11.8psi in mexico city
Albeit those will probably be compensated for for a tad more boost
So maybe like 100bhp loss?
tulip lodge
prob not that much
I read somewhere that ferrari lost 65bhp after 2019
yet that translated to so much performance
so it probably isn't in those ranges
plus turbochargers make higher altitudes affect the engine less compared to if it was naturally aspirated
short ether
Well like... That's why I said the extra boost they could run to recover it
So those barrels of Biofuel is Ethanol and Toluene
That'd have like an Octane of 117
short ether
A few of these ideas seem to be summisations of their ideas...
modern reef
plus turbochargers make higher altitudes affect the engine less compared to if i...
but the turbo needs to work harder
vernal elk
fuel_comparison_chart.pdf
Wonder what will happen to race length and car weight if they do go to more bio fuel
short ether
If you went to anything that wasn't just literally recycled or rawly assembled Bio Petrol, you'd be in for:
More weight in the fuel bladder, as the fuel is more dense as a fluid, yet has less energy density and a richer stoichiometric air:fuel ratio
More power if the FIA would increase the fuel Octane allowance, which I believe they should as pretty much every alcohol and such has an Octane way above 102
And... Well... Less likelyhood to explode or catch fire
vernal elk
I think diesel would be a step forward as most engines get a lot better fuel over normal gas engines. But the wouldn't be as fast.
pale shell
Diesel literally makes coal so I doubt they'd like diesel engines and still have a program against pollution.......
vernal elk
I would love more diesel cars in north America that are not trucks
pale shell
It's not just about fuel and efficiency
vernal elk
Yeah I know but even burning a little less = less pollution
zenith pumice
Yeah I know but even burning a little less = less pollution
Diesel actually polluted more than petrol so burning less diesel is worse than burning less petrol
short ether
diesel isn't the perfect solution, nor is petrol or hydrogen or whatever
pale shell
Just make 4 people pedal inside the car for energy, there you go, cleanest way to race
vernal elk
Diesel actually polluted more than petrol so burning less diesel is worse than b...
I thought it was cleaner. My b
short ether
diesel produces different particles, that are thinner (i think) and more toxic than petrol engines
basically, it produces less CO2, but more of the rest. so overall it's considered more polluting now
boreal ginkgo
short ether
I think diesel would be a step forward as most engines get a lot better fuel ove...
What?
Also why're bargeboards so complicated? Because it's the one bit that hasn't been restricted like everythkng else has
basically
limit the development in one area, then another area becomes the focus of development and suddenly gets super complex and detailed
modern reef
why is this chat so ded
void ibex
well in depth technical talk is a little niche
void ibex
diesel isn't the perfect solution, nor is petrol or hydrogen or whatever
I've heard some talk about some kind of clean fuel that Porsche developed would that be an option?
modern reef
what is it
glossy sky
Why are the low rake guys struggling this time like wot did the new Aero restrictions do
quick wind
A lot more factors than just rake can account for a loss in performance
short ether
https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/low-rake-mercedes-2021-rules/5923746/
Summary:
With the new regulations there can no longer be any ducts to channel air on the floor of the car or any type of skirts. In 2020 Mercedes heavily focused on these "skirts" to create downforce while keeping both the front and back suspension equal height, low rake. However RedBull always made their cars so that the front was lower than the back, essentially creating a bit more front end grip, but with the side effect of less effective skirts on the floor. Anyway, with the new regulations Mercedes are not allowed to get downforce from the floor, and also without DAS, they are quite vulnerable to be attacked from RedBull.
Q: Why dont they change the car then? Like to RedBull's?
A: FIA does not allow manufacturers to spend more than 3 tokens on their car to change it. With the restrictions being very strict, (for example, rear suspension = 1 token) Mercedes thinks they have more important areas to spend their tokens for.
Bet nobody is gonna read this...
worn horizon
wait does mercedes still have their das system (like does the FIA still allow it?)
tacit bridge
No
untold remnant
Why wasn’t DAS banned before itself?
short ether
Why wasn’t DAS banned before itself?
DAS wasn't illegal, it was actually very clever. Mercedes hasn't done any changes to the chassis or the suspension. They have altered the steering system as you might know. It was banned for this year because FIA decided that it was an unfair advantage above other teams. If everyone could do it, it would have been fine but they couldn't.
Wasn't there a rule where you can't change the angle of the tires in the middle of a race?
pale shell
Yeah there was a clear rule
untold remnant
DAS wasn't illegal, it was actually very clever. Mercedes hasn't done any change...
That sounds fair enough, but yea if it is changing something major in the car, shouldn't it be banned?
short ether
Wasn't there a rule where you can't change the angle of the tires in the middle ...
There was, but it was related to suspension, which was not what Mercedes changed to make the DAS.
short ether
That sounds fair enough, but yea if it is changing something major in the car, s...
Well, that is all I know... Ask FIA I guess... lmao
untold remnant
Well, that is all I know... Ask FIA I guess... lmao
xD but thx for that clarification
short ether
xD but thx for that clarification
I looked it up again from different websites but there was no clear explanation on what they changed and why it was banned for this year. Also, I cannot be bothered to read the rulebook chaos of FIA rn, sorry... xD
untold remnant
All cool lol
granite tundra
Summary:
With the new regulations there can no longer be any ducts to channel a...
there's a lot of stuff wrong with this explanation
-there weren't 'skirts' on the floor previously
-the new regs don't control what 'ducts' (?) are doing, they reduce floor area towards the rear of the car (and subsequently the availability of slots/vents)
-'skirts' is a poor word to use, because you're referring to sealing the floor through conditioning airflow, not physically keeping it sealed.
-teams are allocated 2 development tokens, not 3
-inboard rear suspension costs 2 tokens to change, not 1
-by all accounts, DAS was a marginal performance tool that didn't actually yield significant benefits
- "Mercedes are not allowed to get downforce from the floor" doesn't make any sense because, on paper, this is a downforce cut that should benefit them.
you can see that development on the top side of the floor still allows for VGs/straking to try and control airflow
short ether
-there weren't 'skirts' on the floor previously
-the new regs don't control what...
What I mean by skirts are those "fins"... thats the word I was looking for xD
These are the fins I am talking about
The 2021 car still has them, yes, but they are not as long as the previous generations. Which is also caused by the shape difference of the floor. In the photo that I posted, the air flow is channeled over the wheels creating downforce and pushing them down.
Edit: After the first sentence, its all crap nonsense... xD
zenith pumice
you can see that development on the top side of the floor still allows for VGs/s...
What’s VG exactly? And how does the top of the floor help in the downforce generation?
short ether
In the 2021 car however, the floor does not extend as much as the previous cars
zenith pumice
I’m assuming somehow the top of the floor allows air to be directed to the rear of the car in a specific way to allow for downforce
short ether
What’s VG exactly? And how does the top of the floor help in the downforce gener...
VG's are the cutaways, I think thats what he means
native tulip
What’s VG exactly?
iirc Vortex Generators
zenith pumice
Vortex Generators, makes sense
granite tundra
What’s VG exactly? And how does the top of the floor help in the downforce gener...
the top of the floor doesn't really help with downforce generation directly, but what you're able to do is tidy up the airflow to try and minimise tyre squirt and improve diffuser sealing
zenith pumice
Okay so it’s basically a matter of less “turbulent” air?
granite tundra
The 2021 car still has them, yes, but they are not as long as the previous gener...
that's.. not what they're for..
the punchouts are for pressure control and are there to try and improve diffuser performance
granite tundra
Okay so it’s basically a matter of less “turbulent” air?
yep, pretty much
zenith pumice
Cool
short ether
the top of the floor doesn't really help with downforce generation directly, but...
I think its the bottom that is the more effective, right? Cuz of the lift that it would produce?
granite tundra
the bottom is the side which is doing the most work to accelerate the air, yes
short ether
that's.. not what they're for..
Oh crap yes, those are the brake ducts! My bad sorry xD
zenith pumice
How do those cutouts make the diffuser sealing better? Is it accelerating the air? Or is it just isolating the different pressure airs for better downforce
short ether
How do those cutouts make the diffuser sealing better? Is it accelerating the ai...
I am not 100% sure but, it has something to do with accelerating the air. Also, it directs the air towards it so it is fresh air, otherwise it would be turbulent air. (I think)
reads the description
"Wtf is fresh air???? I mean clean air..."
zenith pumice
Ok, makes sense
short ether
I suggest ask TooLowPullUp as well tho, he prob knows better than me.
Oh and here he is. xD
granite tundra
How do those cutouts make the diffuser sealing better? Is it accelerating the ai...
it channels high pressure air from the top of the floor down and between the rear wheels, which prevents the turbulence from the tyres interacting with the diffuser as much
zenith pumice
Interesting
short ether
I suggest ask TooLowPullUp as well tho, he prob knows better than me.
There you go... Said he would know better lmao
granite tundra
so it's another element of keeping the diffuser sealed and preventing tyre squirt from interfering with it
and teams can no longer utilise the punchouts because any holes in the floor have to be a certain distance away from the car centreline
and the new floor rules mean you cant have floor out at the point where the holes become legal
short ether
I will not be surprised if you (graduate as/are) an engineer xD
zenith pumice
Think he is
granite tundra
i would have to double check, but i dont think the slots are explicitly banned
or, not any more banned than they normally are, if that makes sense
short ether
i would have to double check, but i dont think the slots are explicitly banned
Not unless ur 18+, then you can gamble........sorry........
crimson granite
Could someone explain the difference between the floors?
granite tundra
well one goes on a merc, one goes on an aston m artin
to me it looks like they're both following the same broad pattern
of using super aggressive VGs at the beginning of the floor to try and recoup some of the sealing losses towards the rear
crimson granite
Yea like what difference do they make between the two cars
Cause there’s a slight difference
granite tundra
essentially impossible to say
short ether
it looks very marginally different
granite tundra
i'd expect the AM floor to set up a more aggressive vortex along the edge of the floor, so all other things being equal, that's maybe equating to better sealing at the cost of slightly more drag
crimson granite
it looks very marginally different
The Aston one looks more bent in
crimson granite
i'd expect the AM floor to set up a more aggressive vortex along the edge of the...
Ahh okay
short ether
doesn't seem to work at least, if that's the floor they ran in Bahrain
crimson granite
Wait which teams are bringing upgrades to Imola?
short ether
Bro I just want BLAT sealers for 2022 cars, call me unoriginal