f1-technical

[short ether]

Well... No but... The tyres were part of proper convo

yeah, you weren't joking coz I said so

[granite tundra]

https://twitter.com/ScarbsTech/status/1359082081633128454

Craig Scarborough (@ScarbsTech)

First look I've had of the new @FIA frontal anti-intrusion panel. This is part of a response to the Billy Monger crash. Which will spread across all @fia single seater categories. https://t.co/gEfemlASiR

Likes

114

Twitter · Feb 9, 2021, 10:09 AM

this is good to see

RIS jack points were relocated pretty quickly after monger's accident, hopefully this is the final piece in the jigsaw

[short ether]

Oh cool

[sage pilot]

is the engine freeze a go or still not decided?

[mint sand]

not decided yet

the vote is expected to take place tomorrow, however

[sage pilot]

so we have a news tomorrow then

[mint sand]

possibly

[sage pilot]

this is cool u guys talkin about the technicality and stuff

sorry still new at this

[mint sand]

:)

[thorny thistle]

FIA Formula One World Championship Regulations https://www.fia.com/regulation/category/110

[dusty wave]

Thanks

[steel leaf]

Do Redbull and Torro Rosso have the same engine?

[fresh escarp]

Red Bull and AlphaTauri yes

[steel leaf]

thanks 👍

[short ether]

Any you bois got some dream technical regs or aesthetics you'd wanna see F1 go for?

Podracing

Bruh

[viscid turret]

Less wide and long cars, but I don't know how achievable that really is

But I would like to see cars the size of like 2008, or in between 2008 and 2009 in size

[granite tundra]

i think from a technical perspective on its own, it's not enormously challenging

a significant portion of the current cars is effectively empty space- the fuel tank/power unit/rear packaging takes up a decent chunk of space on the rear of the car, but a lot of the length we're seeing is just because it's the aerodynamically sensible thing to do

the bigger issue with trying to make them substantially smaller is that it sort of goes against what 2022 is trying to achieve- better racing through more reliance on underfloor aero

start trying to make the cars smaller (and subsequently the floor), and you'll start to see some substantial performance drop-offs

[short ether]

You say a decent chunk of space, but I don't overly think that's true with the size of the 150L fuel bladder, and the 1.6L

[granite tundra]

do you think i'm over or under representing the amount of space that gets taken up?

[short ether]

I think you're overestimating how much space that takes up

[granite tundra]

yeah i probably am tbh

[short ether]

Against say the 3.5L cars with the 220L Bladders

[granite tundra]

even something like the fuel tank won't actually have much impact on rear packaging considering it's located within the survival cell

[short ether]

There's alot of bellhousing to extend the length

[granite tundra]

the ICE itself is pretty small.. and the battery pack tends to be in/around the tub as well

so as we're moving rear there's a lot of 'empty' space that's just there for the sake of aerodynamics

both for the overfloor aero and the floor itself

[short ether]

The battery is beneath the fuel cell

Coz of COG and whatnot

You see how much longer this extends

[granite tundra]

yeah it tends to try and be below/slightly behind the driver

[short ether]

Vs. This

[granite tundra]

there's a good picture somewhere showing the sheer length of an exhaust on a modern car

[short ether]

I wouldn't really mind if F1 regs next year were just 2m wide versions of current F2 cars with some more downforce and thiccer tyres

[granite tundra]

the max wheelbase thing confuses me for 2022

[granite tundra]

because it's a new addition, so the FIA obviously felt it was something worth including

[short ether]

E

[granite tundra]

but it's also set at a length that very few teams would actually exceed

yup that's a good pic

shows how far back the RIS goes as well

[short ether]

Yeah they're starting to cap wheelbase, coz teams like Merc have 3,724 or so

[granite tundra]

my (probably unfounded concern) is that the FIA looked at the numbers for 2022, and realised teams would end up gravitating towards an even longer design philosophy

and the 3.6m thing is to try and stop them from getting even longer, not to shrink the current cars

[short ether]

The reason why, as much as more surface area creates more downforce

It can only be so long before you have flow detachment and it stalls

[granite tundra]

that but also the fact that a longer floor actually accelerates air earlier.. so it's a bit of a no-brainer to go for a long car

[short ether]

Also Dirty air, we complain but... Top teams want it

[granite tundra]

my concern is the length at which a loooong floor becomes problematic is... way too fucking long

though i could be way off

[short ether]

Huh?

What... I know I said stuff that almost supports but what do you mean?

[granite tundra]

like, obviously there's going to be an upper limit for floor length under the new regs

[short ether]

Just make this wider, with thicc ass rears

[granite tundra]

where the teams naturally don't want to go beyond

[short ether]

And hefty thnnels

[granite tundra]

but my concern is, that length is going to be absurdly long

[short ether]

and 3.2L N/A Hybrids

[granite tundra]

so it's a concept that scales well with increasing floor size

and the FIA saw this coming and put in a max wheelbase to try and prevent the cars from getting even bigger

[short ether]

Oh well it... Yeah it is already absurdly long

I think the worst bit is the length, not the width

[granite tundra]

here let me demonstrate with a fantastic chart

[short ether]

A-... Aight

[granite tundra]

so there'll come a point where, for both floor designs, you start to hit diminishing returns on length/size

BUT, for 2022, that happens much later

[short ether]

I... Yeah

Again, I'd think if it got much longer with a single wing surface it'll stall

[granite tundra]

i'm not too well versed with how flow separation happens in a venturi, so i'm not sure

i can get behind the f2 logic though

tidy the cars up, add mechanical grip, try to keep the length somewhat reasonable

[short ether]

Make the engines the OG Voiturette so we get new Mid-engined Supercharged Audi's, send it

[granite tundra]

maybe let teams physically seal the floor to compensate for reduced effectiveness

[short ether]

OH

Yeah well that's why the floors on the 2022 cars have that hump on each edge

[granite tundra]

you mean like the lips?

[short ether]

Yeah the lip edges after the cortex generators that grow like a curve on the floor edge

[granite tundra]

yep, they'll work pretty well to seal the floor

[short ether]

It's a BLAT sealer similar to the floor cheese Graters

[granite tundra]

i'm not sure how aggressively you can get away with physically sealing it

[short ether]

And also they have those static sealers on the rear wheels

[granite tundra]

i'm thinking of anything up to bringing the skirts back lmao

[short ether]

No... Funnily enough at this point, physical skirts are a defecit

[granite tundra]

how come?

[short ether]

Because... Well now, a physical skirt not only creates mechanical drag, but you have to built the sidepods in a way that'll be more squared to store them as they bounce

Not to mention... Still no active suspension

[granite tundra]

would you not be able to run the skirts as part of the floor instead of having to bring the sidepods outboard?

so just run a couple cm of brushes/rubber skirting along the length of the floor

[short ether]

Well that's what I mean

Especially with high rakes

And how cars are built now to take more air in the sides

It's a defecit to have a physical contact patch

[granite tundra]

to what extent though? i'm not disagreeing with you, i'm just curious

we still see the front of the plank making contact with the ground, that's a contact patch but the performance benefit from running a lower front ride height makes it worth it

[short ether]

... Well... I don't know, theoretically if you built the car to have them, it'd still be a monster

[granite tundra]

my assumption was that a physical skirt would still be better at sealing the floor than doing it with vortices

[short ether]

But... I don't know if you built one with a BLAT type seal

But Vortices don't porpoise

[granite tundra]

yeah that's a definite benefit to them

i can't imagine physical sealing making a comeback to that extent, i was just curious about whether there'd be an outright performance benefit

[short ether]

Like for example... The BLAT Gurney Eagles were banned against the other Indycars with a more typical setup, although idk... I think they didn't use physical skirts

Here's what I mean, the 919 Evo

The 2022 regs take this idea

[granite tundra]

oh so that's actually running more aggressive sealing along the floor

though i assume that's just a slightly re-profiled floor, they're not messing around with brushing/rubber seals

[short ether]

It's not a physical skirt, it's an angled BLAT sealer

They made it slightly more reserved on the Nür one

[granite tundra]

yeah i think that's a very sensible way to go about things

definitely looks more aggressive than what 2022's doing

[short ether]

Oh yeah it's more aggressive than the F1 2022 regs

But this is essentially the F1 2022 system of sealing

[granite tundra]

yep

i guess one thing they're having to consider is the durability/raceability of the cars

tyre face to floor contact is a pretty common thing, and it already wrecks a big chunk of performance

[short ether]

Well more coz... Y'know, Porsche don't want to be modest when making essentially a track LSR

Yeah, so
F2 car type design at 2m wide or so, thicc tyres, BLAT skirts with hefty tunnels and a rear wing extender, ignore the huge engines I'm slipping in

[granite tundra]

i can get on board with that

ignoring the engines that is

[short ether]

Like... Wheelbase of F2 is 3,125mm, I assume they have shorter tubs

Get wheelbase to 3.25? Coz wheelbase of 2000's was 3,125-3,200

[granite tundra]

hm..

3.6-3.7 down to 3.25

it's aggressive, but i don't think it would be impossible

one thing to consider will be the front/rear impact structures

which obviously don't change wheelbase, but will still have to be bigger than in f2

i think the wheelbase change would be possible

unfortunately i can't grab the crash testing requirements for f2 since those are cars done through the tender process

but even the RIS/gearbox assembly will likely have to be a chunk longer

[short ether]

Ideally I'd love 3.6m wheelbases coz that's all I can draw that looks good

[granite tundra]

lmao

how many teams are under the 3.6m target atm? i think like 6 or 7?

[short ether]

Uh... Not... Too many

[granite tundra]

ah, none apparently

but most of them are hovering around 3600mm

half the grid are supposedly within 50mm

tbh that could be another reason for the 3.6 limit

most teams are already close to it, so the fia can introduce a max wheelbase without forcing too dramatic a change for 2022

there could well be scope for decreasing wheelbase in the future if that's the case

[short ether]

Well... Idk... I don't see an issue in changing wheelbase being the issue when you completely change how downforce generation is made

Imo I'd go back to Inwash

[granite tundra]

imo that's why suddenly shortening the cars could cause an issue- everyone's already trying to adapt to a pretty different way of generating downforce

[short ether]

I'd say... Opposite imo

[granite tundra]

compound that with suddenly making the cars dramatically shorter.. that's probably more potential for someone to absolutely nail the regs and end up walking away with things

[short ether]

... Hmm

[granite tundra]

idk, at this point i think i'd rather see a less radical change for 2022 with scope to slowly shrink the cars back down

[short ether]

Wdym?

[granite tundra]

i don't want to go too far in one direction and find out someone has absolutely nailed a reg change

if you follow the logic that the more you change on the regs, the greater potential for exploitation or specific teams to benefit

[short ether]

I... I guess so

But at the same time... Nobody really dominated the Grooved Tyre era when it started

[granite tundra]

yeah that's fair

[short ether]

Like especially 1999, it was wayyyy up in the air

Jordan, Stewart, Williams still had a shot

[granite tundra]

i really do like the logic of going even more aggressive on the floors though

i know it's not 'wasted' space, but photos like this show how much of the rear doesn't actually have to be there

min weight as well..

idk i feel like there's surely some scope for bringing back exotic materials

[short ether]

Oh yeah, I... I'd allow Titanium

[granite tundra]

isn't titanium already somewhat allowed?

not pistons, but stuff like component casings, engine valves, suspension members can still be done with titanium

[short ether]

Titanium was part of the 2008 exotics ban like totally

As far as I'm aware

[granite tundra]

i think that's been walked back

plus you've got stuff like the plank assembly and halo

[short ether]

Oh... Huh

I meant in engine construction

Although

I'm very excited for Graphene

[granite tundra]

oh yeah it's still slightly limited for the power unit

though there are components that can be ti

[granite tundra]

yep.. that's going to be a big one i think

i'm trying to think of where you could trim weight without changing component materials

[short ether]

Coz it not only revolutionises the monocoque and whatnot

But also... Batteries

[granite tundra]

yeah, that's gonna be a big one on batteries

i'm not sure the timeline for use in the survival cell is going to be great compared to other areas tbh

that's gotta be a long way off considering the complexity/geometric properties of the tubs

though i guess there's still potential even if it's just for reinforcement or whatever

actually, i wonder what the penetration resistance is like for graphene.. using it for the anti-intrusion panels could make a lot of sense

[short ether]

Well... If they can be 3D printed

3 layers or so of Graphene is bullet proof my gamer

I... I think?

[granite tundra]

uh that sounds right

maybe not as few as 3 layers, but i think you're in the right ballpark

[short ether]

Or at least the 3 atom layers are equivalent to bulletproof of like... That scale

[granite tundra]

apparently "twice as well" as existing bulletproof vests

i'd like to see some sort of comparison between graphene and zylon for penetration resistance

because i could see graphene working very well for the anti-intrusion panels

and those are 'simpler' components than the entire tub to manufacture

[short ether]

If you make that into like... A 3D Printed set of panels

[granite tundra]

that could work really well, yeah

[short ether]

Or just anti intrusion panels yeah

If they're panels you wouldn't need to print some complex structures

[granite tundra]

i think when the FIA were developing the new side impact system a few years ago, they considered 3d printing them?

though i could be getting confused

i remember the CF spars we ended up using, an aluminium (?) accordion-style system, and i think a 3d printed solution?

[short ether]

I'm excited to see AI design/3D printing useage in suspension components

[granite tundra]

hold up, i saw a good picture of something you'll like

[short ether]

THE CZINGER 21C

That's the car

[granite tundra]

so this is a generative titanium design for the pedals

3d printed as well

[short ether]

Yooooo

I've heard Titanium is a nightmare to work with tho

[granite tundra]

ugh it's shocking

[short ether]

Is that actually true?

[granite tundra]

yeah it's really finnicky

because obviously it's so strong, it's not cheap, and i think any CNC work on titanium at our uni had to be done with extra water as well for cooling?

lots of heat involved

something like those pedals simply wouldn't be possible to CNC

[short ether]

Is it easier to work with via printing?

[granite tundra]

uh i'm not too familiar with 3d printing, i can only assume it is

though they must be using a different alloy or something

[short ether]

Right

This is what I'm about

[granite tundra]

oh, it's Ti64

[short ether]

Whuzzat?

[granite tundra]

yep, that's seriously cool

[granite tundra]

pretty common alloy, we've used it a bit

bugatti brake caliper

[short ether]

Yeah that's for the Chiron innit?

[granite tundra]

not sure if it's an AI/generative design.. it almost looks like it though

yep

[short ether]

Oh yeah

[granite tundra]

but that was 3d printed

[short ether]

I really wanna see Generative designs

Like they print so much for the Czinger

[granite tundra]

great way of actually demonstrating the viability of the manufacturing process

[short ether]

And funnily enough, it enss up looking like nature

[granite tundra]

yeah there's a good quote i saw about that

the 'current' way of doing things is generally applying a few hundred years of human knowledge to the part

whereas nature has been aggressively developing these designs in parallel for millions of years

unsurprising that optimised parts end up looking like something you'd find in nature

[short ether]

Well this one, there's a whole thing about how they give it design parameters, give it a max tolerance for x load for the least material, give it the material properties and there it goes

[granite tundra]

yeah it's cool as fuck

basically telling it what you want, and then letting it run through billions of different designs until it finds the best solution

idk it's simultaneously an elegant and inelegant way of doing things

you're basically brute forcing an effective design, but the end product is so impressive

[short ether]

And it looks natural because essentially you grow your parts rather than build them, and nature has that inbuilt resource management

[granite tundra]

yep, nature's been developing its designs for a lot longer than we have

same basic principle as well

the end target isn't as defined, but you're basically evolving designs for millions of years, seeing what 'works', and improving on it

[short ether]

Combine it with Cylinder in head... Les go bois

[granite tundra]

unfortunately i don't think it's particularly adopted in my industry yet, there tends to be more restrictions with the regulations

ah here we go

[short ether]

Huh?

[granite tundra]

https://www.aero-mag.com/airbus-autodesk-generative-design-aircraft-components-200120/

so we were looking at stuff like cabin partitions being done with AI

so it's still a pretty 'small-scale' thing in aerospace i think

though you've got more regulations for planes than cars

[short ether]

Right

Of course it has to start slow

E

[granite tundra]

oof

that's gorgeous

[short ether]

I wouldn't mind for Pistons, but I'm very into it for Cylinder block/head design

[granite tundra]

that would definitely be a way to bring the weight back down for f1

even if it potentially means not switching to exotics

[short ether]

Well in combination doe 😳

Oh wow Honda are experimenting with Generative designs

[granite tundra]

obviously not for f1

but yeah, that's not surprising

i wonder if there are any actual restrictions on teams using generative design atm..

[short ether]

Well yeah I thinl they're limited to cast/forged things for at least engine components

[granite tundra]

ye but can you not use AI design for those components?

[granite tundra]

just to a point where they're still manufacturable by normal processes

[short ether]

Well yeah but...

That's why I bring it up

I don't think the benefit... Ehhh it's F1, 1% is worth it

[granite tundra]

i'm trying to think if there would be compute limitations on teams spending time on AI design

i dont think so? ill double check tomorrow

[upper ivy]

good question

[short ether]

Humst

[upper ivy]

does the limit only apply to CFD or also structural simulation?

[granite tundra]

from memory, it's only CFD usage that's restricted by core-hour

[short ether]

I'd love just... A whole ass internally AI designed/printed structure, yet the body super sleek and such

[granite tundra]

but there could well be another reg preventing stuff like AI design

[upper ivy]

not that I know of

but now with the spending limit that might be too expensive?

[short ether]

Idk... It cuts out some jobs... To be cynical about it

[granite tundra]

i think it depends on how they want to limit overall computer usage from now on

[short ether]

That Czinger 21C has very few people involved in assembly, most of the teams are surprisingly designers

[granite tundra]

because atm, cfd is restricted because it's one of the few design processes that benefit from being brute-forced

but if you can use a supercomputer cluster for AI design..

[short ether]

Brute forced?

[granite tundra]

yeah

well

[short ether]

Wdym?

[granite tundra]

benefits from more compute time

or power

[short ether]

Oh right

[granite tundra]

so the more power you've got, the more simulations you can crunch through in the same timeframe

which is obviously a parity issue for the poorer teams

[short ether]

I think the Bugatti Bolide has printed suspension Pushrods of titanium with an internal wireframe tyoe structure to hollow it out

[granite tundra]

oh yeah i think i was reading about that

[short ether]

Sorry kinda unrelated at this point

OH I GOT IT to finalise
A mix of the Dallara ir.01 and F2 car designs, ez dub

Then generate their design, ez dub

[granite tundra]

ohhhh

the iracing one?

[short ether]

Yea yea

Actually have smooth curve tub/nose progressions tho

[granite tundra]

i'm not a massive fan of the engine cover packaging tbh

i think a quasi-shark fin would make it look much more proportional

[short ether]

On the iR-01?

[granite tundra]

yeah

[short ether]

That and the nose is the issue, the engine cover/rollhoop are too small

[granite tundra]

yeah i think that's the problem

to me the rollhoop looks normal, but we're so used to seeing airbox packaging significantly larger than the hook it's built around

though it's too low actually

[short ether]

THERE'S NUFFING THERE

[granite tundra]

yeah that's not right lmao

kek

look at where the fwd roll structure would have to be to even give the driver a few mm of space

the more i look at it, the worse the roll stucture looks

[short ether]

Yeah the intake is below the rear of the helmet

It just needs to be more... 2008'y

[granite tundra]

its like

the rear half is too small

hold up i want to try something

[short ether]

Add an intake/rollbar that actually can take in a good air percentage?

[granite tundra]

there you go

just like.. split the car in half, and make the rear like 25% larger 😆

[short ether]

Not... That tall, no

Even so, the slump is too extreme

[granite tundra]

actually yeah

[short ether]

There we go... Ish?

[granite tundra]

i think the rear packaging doesn't look quite right

like.. the front of the tub is so high, then the rear wing looks out of proportion

[short ether]

Rear wing's too small for that intake height

[granite tundra]

yeah

the sloping sidepods don't help either

[short ether]

That nose is... Very typical of Post-Modern Design

[granite tundra]

hm..

i think the lack of a shark fin is still a problem

[short ether]

YO

We're getting interesting

Ohhh yeah, this car had the Underfloor I love

[granite tundra]

hmm

trying to pad out the engine cover

[short ether]

YES

[granite tundra]

in my mind that's just a thin shark-fin like the current f1 cars have

[short ether]

Then give it sidepod flickups

[granite tundra]

i love how aggressive that looks

oooh like the ir18 deflectors?

[short ether]

Yeah, I'd much prefer that to what F1 is doing

Actually... Hmm

[granite tundra]

like, i really love the oval deflectors from the side

but i dont like them from the front

so idk

[short ether]

I meant the more... Just either Euro or CART ones

[granite tundra]

ah yeah i get what you're going for

[short ether]

Like tbese

[granite tundra]

so they're not going as outboard as the current ones on stuff like indycars

that would look seriously good

[short ether]

Yeah they're the same width as the floor

It's something I really think needs to come back

Because now that area is so Dead on most formula cars

[granite tundra]

tbh i think we're getting close to the road course aerokit for the dw12 now

just with a shallower rear wing and larger engine cover

[short ether]

Yeaaa

[granite tundra]

no complaints though, i love the aerokit they have atm lmao

just need to add a halo

perfect

[short ether]

Here's what I can draw...

[granite tundra]

that looks good

[short ether]

Here's your flick-ups

[granite tundra]

yeah something really aggressive that ramps up to a high AoA

[short ether]

See what I mean with long cars?

[granite tundra]

definitely

[short ether]

I can't draw shorter coz it goes disproportionate...

[granite tundra]

i think the roll hoop might be slightly skewing the proportions?

because that's a very low hoop for the height of your fwd tub

[short ether]

Yea the car is 825mm tall

I need to try making the roll hoop larger

[granite tundra]

oof lol

i think you could probably achieve the same thing from a rollover perspective by lowering the front end of the tub

but that would still change proportions so idk

[short ether]

What?

[granite tundra]

so like, say the tub isn't as tall at the point of your forward roll structure

so you lower the front of the tub a little bit, which lets you keep the roll hoop at the same height

the profile changes, but the max height of the car stays the same

[short ether]

No I want the car taller

[granite tundra]

oh ok

[short ether]

I think I made the roll hoop too small as a whole, not just height, but lengff

[granite tundra]

from a purely technical perspective, i'd say it looks ok

[short ether]

But O need to find a good balance

[granite tundra]

but idk if you're talking about how it would actually operate or just how it would look

[short ether]

Well uhhh... You see the tunnel profile?

[granite tundra]

yeah i think so

[short ether]

Yeah we got the CART 80's tunnels gamer

[granite tundra]

is this part of the profile?

..let me label that

[short ether]

That's the start, yes

Then the middle greys are the exits

In the sidepod area/rear wheels

[granite tundra]

ah i've got you

[short ether]

But the idea was like a Lotus 80/Press-BT48 with a CART aesthetic, combine it with modern wheelbase/F1 tub dimensions

[granite tundra]

it looks good

[short ether]

Then just put in a 120° Supercharged V12

ahem

[granite tundra]

min weight of.. let's say 550kg xd

[short ether]

including driver

Yeah
Thing's 5,800×2,100×825 at the moment

Big E

[native tulip]

can someone smart explain what this means? 😅

[upper ivy]

A turbocharger has two turbines - one being driven by the exhaust gases; the other compressing the air flowing towards the engine. Usually these are close together but in a split-turbo design they're on the opposite ends of the engine.

Mercedes has used this design since 2014, other manufacturers started with a more conventional design

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-a234dee8f96132a4b75005576186a042

[granite tundra]

yeah just to expand on that more- a split layout means that you're separating the turbine and the compressor, and connecting them with a shaft

in merc's case, they run a shaft through the V of the engine block, and also have the MGU-H betewen the turbine and compressor

which is a lot better from a packaging and heat generation perspective

but i'm not really sure what the photo is meant to be showing

[upper ivy]

yeah the pic is confusing

[short ether]

Thanks, isn't there drawbacks to having a shaft linking the two parts

[granite tundra]

generally yes, because it's extra weight and another component rotating quickly that has the potential to fail

but merc (and apparently ferrari) feel like this is worth putting up with for the packaging and heat benefits

[upper ivy]

does packaging refer to space in the engine or to weight distribution?

[short ether]

Heat benefits? I don't understand what they come from

[granite tundra]

it can be both, but it's generally the space you have to work with

[granite tundra]

the turbine and compressor both produce a lot of heat, so by splitting them up they're easier to cool/deal with

there's also heat transfer across the turbine and compressor

which causes issues

[short ether]

oh ye makes sense. so it increases the mgu-h harvesting a bit, doesn't it

[granite tundra]

er.. i don't think the layout itself will change that

because you should still be spinning the turbo up to similar RPMs regardless of its layout

if anything there could be marginally more losses with a split turbo because of mechanical inefficiency of the shaft

but im not too sure

[short ether]

hm ye. and like you said, there's a long super fast spinning shaft that could induce even more risks of failure. but it works so

[short ether]

They're trying to make the link on airbox position, as it's funneling to the front of the engine rather than the back

[slender idol]

what happened to the discussions that the new engines in the 2022 (former 2021) cars would be allowed to rev up to 3000rpms higher to make the sound better, was that canceled?

[short ether]

The FIA pussyfooted the engine changes in 2021 which'd take out the MGU-H, which Lambo batted at, Aston Martin were into, and Porsche built an engine for, but then they decided to do the smoothbrain and just forget it, which shut out all potential new constructors

The idea by Brawn is they'd rev to 18 as well... But I don't know how much that was seriously investigated, and I don't think it'd sound much better

[viscid turret]

If you remove the MGU- H the sound would be miles better + more potential manufacturers... Interesting

[gusty light]

i love mguh

[viscid turret]

We know that

[short ether]

The MGU-H removal will make them sound less... Idk... They'd sound more meaty

But idk to what extent

[viscid turret]

Petition for a team to try that

Just get a old car from like 2015, remove the MGU- H, see how it sounds

If that would even work lol

[reef pine]

see how much better it sounds
FTFY

[viscid turret]

NGL I think the Hybrids sound alright but yeah without the MGU H it would almost definitely sound better

[short ether]

if it means that the cars are less powerful, i don't like it

[granite tundra]

technically it wouldn't make them less powerful

though they'd be slower on longer runs

[short ether]

ye obviously, they couldn't use as much electricity over a whole race

[short ether]

It would sound worse, and would have less power over time

But then idk... Just get better MGU-K's

I think the current F1 engines just sound so depthless

[short ether]

So it's all this Nasally oweeeeee coming by

the amount of energy in the brakes compared to that emitted by the ice isn't the same order of magnitude tbh

Yeah... And?

and i don't think it could really replace the mgu-h

... The... You could theoretically just replace the rear brakes with the regen brake thingies, or just increase the MGU-K harvest force

So make it a beefier alternator

for the sake of sound only?

think the mgu-h is the most interesting part of the PU

It might be the most interesting... Essentially being an alternator and anti-lag motor for a turbo, but it's the most complex, most expensive, and least applicable

FIA wanna call it the road relevant coz Mercedes say they're making one

[upper ivy]

so with that latest Mclaren-pic I'm wondering how they put together CFRP-parts like these?

do they literally just glue them together with resin or are things like that manufactured in one piece

[granite tundra]

i would say that the top piece looks to be a separate part which is attached after manufacturing, but the bottom part looks like it was manufactured in one piece

[zenith pumice]

I think if you manufacture it together it saves a bit more weight? Someone correct me if I'm wrong

Or is it negligable

[granite tundra]

yep generally that's the case, any form of adhesion/attachment point is going to pose a weight penalty

but you need to balance it out with the ability to actually manufacture the parts in the first place

same deal with the tub itself.. you'd likely save weight if you manufactured the entire thing as one component, but that's prohibitively expensive and complicated to do

[violet smelt]

also making it in one piece makes it stronger and more aerodynamic because there's no tiny tiny tiny edges

[neat oasis]

did you see that mercedes have an issue with power units

big problems they say

don't know if it's true

[short ether]

they also claimed this last year

[narrow path]

Sandbagging

[upper ivy]

I'll believe Mercedes issues when I see them in the results.

Too often have they claimed to have problems just to win with a massive gap anyway or they won with a massive gap and then claimed afterwards how close to retirement they were 🙃

[mint sand]

I think they do it for fun

[placid brook]

They could be on the radio telling Lewis his car is about to explode and he'd still win be like 20 seconds

[mint sand]

Just to get some people’s hopes up

And then crush them

Because it’s funny

[tardy kite]

https://tenor.com/view/shinegifs-gif-8555544

[thorny thistle]

https://www.mclaren.com/racing/2021/car-launch/mclaren-mcl35m-technical-specification/

[short ether]

I find the way Motorsports say weight distribution so annoying

[granite tundra]

really, this is all that i can see as being different straight away

[mint sand]

slightly tighter packaging around the sidepods too

[zenith pumice]

Ye

[granite tundra]

rear wing fence has a slightly different edge design, the airbox is marginally different, slightly more aggressive packaging at the rear, a less aggressive front wing planform view, slightly tighter sidepods

the bargeboard seems essentially unchanged from the abu dhabi spec

[mint sand]

i think Key said they were waiting on an upgrade for it

[abstract pawn]

https://twitter.com/tgruener/status/1361402780632707072?s=20

Tobi Grüner 🏁 (@tgruener)

New Mercedes powered McLaren MCL35M. Modified engine cover, airbox & rear wing endplates. Check out some comparison pics...

#AMuS

Twitter · Feb 15, 2021, 7:51 PM

[short ether]

the rear is so much tighter

[granite tundra]

definitely a lot more aggressively packaged as you move along the car

[short ether]

[granite tundra]

looks like the sidepods have been opened up a little as well

on second thoughts, im not too sure how much the FW has changed

but its worth keeping in mind that tweet is comparing launch specs

[short ether]

gearbox looks the same size, it's at engine's level that is lower right

from the side comparison it seems to have less rake as well

@short ether yes in the renders rake is slightly lower

but it's only renders

while the wheelbase can't be changed, you can change rake with ride height so

[soft shadow]

I think it's quite safe to say that McLaren is now officially the Orange Mercedes

[short ether]

1998 McLaren MP4/13 test car

= they always were

[zenith pumice]

Please no orange mercedes memes now

[reef pine]

oranj merc

[median shoal]

onrag

[placid brook]

orange racing point

[tight wharf]

now we have the green mercedes and the orange mercedes /s

oh and the white and blue not so mercedes

[short ether]

Wow mean

[short ether]

Y'all I need some Chaos control on this mf

[tight wharf]

mclaren with too many sponsors is cursed

a few years ago they barely had any

[short ether]

2ell they haven't really distributed them well

[soft shadow]

Didn't they already had ads with Coke?

[versed inlet]

yes

[short ether]

Yeah last year

[viscid turret]

Laughs in Sauber

[unborn slate]

wrong chat

[turbid pewter]

Sorry

[turbid pewter]

Seb said the same during sf1000 launch

And the rest is history

May be Mclaren will go little Backfoot this year

[obtuse hinge]

You mean beginning of 2020

[crimson granite]

Are McLaren buying their Gearbox from Mercedes?

[soft shadow]

Well they used their own gearbox in the Renault last year

So probably no

[short ether]

no they make it

[crimson granite]

Oh okay I see

[native tulip]

does gearbox affect the performance of a car by a lot?

[crimson granite]

Probably does

[zenith pumice]

Think about how many gear changes F1 cars go through over the course of the race: if the gearbox is lower quality then eventually the gears will start to wear out and affect the performance of the car

[short ether]

The Gearbox contains not only the gear cluster, but what other component vital to handling?

ok so according to my very reliable source ( @granite tundra ), it is negligible compared to what it costs to build a gearbox inhouse

[unborn slate]

Ok, so why are more and more teams going with the slimmer nose

like does it provide any tangible increase in performance?

[granite tundra]

well at the absolute fundamental level, smaller frontal area = less drag

wider noses also have the potential for stalled airflow along their underside

narrow noses also mean an easier task of packaging the front end

personally, i think slimmer noses have always been the way to go

but where teams were slipping up was being able to pass the frontal crash test- which is obviously harder with a thin nose

[unborn slate]

is that why a few teams still had the thick nose?

[granite tundra]

at this point, i think the teams hanging onto the thick nose are doing so more because of the restrictions on development

we saw more teams really begin to embrace it last year, but we're now at a point where a nose change would require token spend

plus there's also the consideration that the nose/cape is conditioning flow for the car downstream of the front end

so changing the nose could well require more tweaks further back

[unborn slate]

ok thanks for answering my question!

[short ether]

I don't have anywhere else to put this, but this is related enogh to F1 to put here, the car that I am trying to develop and a F1 car is very similar. They are both rear mid engine rear will drive open wheel cars. I am kind of stumped. I am trying to deevlop this FSAE car, but I am en counting a problem.

How do I mount something like thise to a steel tube space frame with it, being in double shear?

This is double shear.

Man this is the kinda thing I'd really love to be helpful in

This is the ttype of frame in question. The area I'd like to mount it to, is to the right of the tallest part of the frame.

Why? Torsional rigidity?

Why what

I don't want want the mounting to be in single shear, because it makes for a weaker bond

No, why mount it to the tallest part of the frame?

To the right of it

Oh the box...

I can read

Its all cool

[upper ivy]

would it be possible to weld simple brackets to the frame like this? (just the main functions, obviously not optimized for weight or anything)

some teams seem to use similar solutions for suspension parts at least

[short ether]

hmm

ill consider it!

[twin ridge]

Anyone know what the big circular things are used to on the side of F2 cars?

[short ether]

Example?

[obsidian abyss]

i dont see anything weird here

[reef pine]

circle where

[twin ridge]

Ah my bad thinking of F3 cars!

[obsidian abyss]

unless he means this on the old F3 cars, which is an air intake for the engine cooling

[short ether]

Those are the intakes

[twin ridge]

ohhh okay

[obsidian abyss]

Its basically the airbox but then moved to the side

[twin ridge]

Ah thats interesting

[obsidian abyss]

the airbox being this part of the F1 car above the drivers head

(also wtf is that alfa setup lol)

definitely not the best part of the C37/38

[short ether]

Well they just separate out their intakes for radiators/airboxes

[obsidian abyss]

yes

the C39 was also weird

TIL sauber has weird airboxes

[blazing saffron]

what car is this?

clearly not the 17 Sauber or 19 RP

[short ether]

... Toro Rosso?

[obsidian abyss]

toro rosso

yeah

[blazing saffron]

oh

right

lmao

yep it's the TR

[obsidian abyss]

looks like the STR13

[blazing saffron]

all of the cars in that compilation pic are 2018 cars I think

[obsidian abyss]

yeah

[soft shadow]

Renault's airbox design is quite a fancy one

[upper ivy]

Sauber also frequently used a "roll blade" instead of a roll hoop in the airbox

[tight wharf]

sauber aero package is weird

[worthy monolith]

Everything on the Sauber is the most apparent and unique to the grid, from the front wing, nostril, cape, nose, air inlet, and sharkfin.

[graceful hinge]

https://twitter.com/ScarbsTech/status/1364521068392833024

Craig Scarborough (@ScarbsTech)

The 16B appears to keep the single mounting, but makes it shroud all three tail pipes, with each pipe ending flush with the pylon.
As the turbo wastegates rarely open with the Hybrid set up and there fo little blowing around a lap, I'm not unclear of the exact aero benefit.

Twitter · Feb 24, 2021, 10:22 AM

[vale portal]

Question, are unlisted parts teams can buy per definition last year's parts? Or could they also be this year's parts? Ergo, could Red Bull give AT 2022 parts if they wanted to next year, so that AT doesn't have to develop these parts themselves?
I'm asking this because I read this interview: https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/franz-tost-interview-alpha-tauri-ziele-2021-budget-2022/
Tost tells here that for 2022 development will be tricky because they can't get the entire rear from RBR, but for 2023 they can. But as far as I know, Haas is using this year's parts from Ferrari. Same with Sauber who get the engine implementation which per definition is current year, and also the rear suspension of which I'm also pretty sure it's current year.

[granite tundra]

right so there's a bit of confusion with what 'unlisted parts' are- because there's no such thing

[vale portal]

I thought unlisted parts were the parts they could buy.

[granite tundra]

what franz is talking about is rear suspension- which is listed as a transferable component

[vale portal]

Does it matter if it's the current year's suspension?

[granite tundra]

and TRCs need to be identical to either the current year, or previous year spec

[vale portal]

TRC is....?

[granite tundra]

so right now.. if we pretend the development restrictions don't exist, a customer team can get either a 2021 or 2020 spec component

[granite tundra]

transferable components

[vale portal]

Ah, ok

[granite tundra]

so AT could in theory receive a 2022 rear end from red bull next year

[vale portal]

Ok, that was indeed my question.

[granite tundra]

and as a side note, there's no such thing as an 'unlisted' component in f1

[vale portal]

So why is Tost saying it's a tricky thing then? Because RBR just doesn't give AT current year parts apart from the powertrain?

[granite tundra]

not sure why they're not getting a 2022 rear end.. could be any number of reasons tbh

[vale portal]

Ok. Grüner should've asked that imho...

[granite tundra]

could just be as simple as RB looking at their production capabilities going into 2022 and deciding they don't have the overhead to supply a customer team in the first year of a reg change

[vale portal]

I remember Horner criticizing the Mercedes-Racing Point deal and stated they would run four identical-looking cars in 2021 if that model was deemed legal: https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/56129/red-bull-and-alphatauri-will-run-identical-cars-in-21-if-racing-point-model-legal/#:~:text=Christian Horner has warned Red,withdraw from the appeal process.

[short ether]

is the real???

[native tulip]

no he was just threatening someone

Redbull can't do that, they have regulations to prevent things like that

[short ether]

ok

[left quest]

i know this is a dumb question but why doesnt alpha tauri run similar cars

[short ether]

because the red bull car is designed for max

y

[abstract pawn]

https://youtu.be/-6q0ZswxA4Y

[granite tundra]

absolute bullshit

[granite tundra]

they do to a fairly large extent, but there are lots of components which can't be transferred

all aerodynamic components, the survival cell, the nose (for now), etc. all have to be in-house designs

[shrewd geyser]

hh

[cursive wraith]

no

Max just has the abilty to adapt better

[tight wharf]

Max is just super op

Everyone else in that RB seat was just to inexperienced, eg Gasly and Albon

[left quest]

ah ok thanks for this

[thorny thistle]

The Race are just 24/7 bait

[grand silo]

No lol

[twin ridge]

the RB car didn't suddenly change over a few months after Danny Ricc left, however I can't deny that RB probably favoured Max's input, but as Sergio Perez will hopefully prove the reason Gasly and Albon failed was massive pressure and inexperience, also gasly only had less than 10 races to prove he could handle it which is kinda unfortunate

[short ether]

If a car has too much oversteer, would it help adjusting the negative camber? how would it affect tyres, if so?

[obsidian abyss]

I dont think negative camber will change a lot about that, its mostly rear suspension (including ride height) and rear downforce I think

[short ether]

yeah, i agree. But wouldn't the camber, when it's more negative, push against the track more - resulting in a loss of "snap"

[short ether]

If a car has too much oversteer, it'll benefit you to actually decrease the negative camber maybe, as it allows for greater contact patch with the track

But the easy way to do so is loosen up the rear anti-roll bar

It'll allow for greater impact absorbing by the suspension, so the tyre can stay more in contact with the road rather than bouncing on it

[grand silo]

Or the front

There’s many things you can do to prevent oversteer

And it depends what speed range you get the oversteer

And what phase of the corner

[short ether]

How does it depend on the phase of the corner? (i’m new to all of this but rlly interested, so i appreciate this feedback a lot!)

[grand silo]

In many many ways

There’s loads of parts of a corner

There’s the initial braking when straught

The phase as you are releasing the brakes while steering

The mid corner

Then you have the combined exit which is turning while getting on power

And the other corners you just have more straight line traction

[short ether]

Oh, alright - yeah that makes sense! thanks! so if i wanted to i.e reduce oversteer in the mid part of the corner?

[short ether]

Mid part is where you're getting back on the power so the weight transfer goes back

Aka... Maybe bring ballast back and soften the rear bar

[grand silo]

It also depends on what speed the corner is

Especially with f1 there’s so many things, and one change affects a lot

But all teams have simulation software to see what the set up change will do and to check that it’ll change what they want in the speed range they’re struggling with

[valid herald]

do you think there should be DRS for 2022

[short ether]

I don't like DRS

But unfortunately it's a necessary Evil

[grand silo]

I think there should be

Without it it’s so hard to overtake

If you want high downforce cars then you’ll get dirty air

Pretty much all single seater series that have a lot of downforce have some system to make overtaking easier

Indy car and superformula have push to pass, f3 f2 and f1 have drs

[thorny thistle]

From what I know, the regulations require the system to be built in, but not necessarily used

So if it becomes completely over-powered, they can choose to not use it

But I doubt it will, and I guess, so did they, which is why it's still there for now.

[short ether]

That isn't necessarily true, tho

[grand silo]

Yes it is true

You can make it less with different regulations but there’ll always be a bit

[short ether]

I never said it'd be zero

[grand silo]

It’s always going to be hard to pass in a single seater car with a bit of downforce

[short ether]

But if they can train eachother through corners, like 2005 or so (which people say isn't exciting but eh) then it can be not used as cars by exits of corners can have enough proximity/speed anyway

... Before 2005 tho

I much prefer P2P than something like DRS

I just find DRS way too predictable

[upper ivy]

not to forget that F1 is one of the only series without standard cars or BOP

[soft shadow]

I just wanna ask if there's a difference between the Halo used in today's Formula cars to their American cousins in Indycar

Shape wise

[granite tundra]

shape wise.. not too much

indy raises the upper hoop so the front profile is slightly different

as well as the aeroscreen being rated for a higher crash test load

[soft shadow]

Yeah, I kinda see it now, really difficult to see the hoop in Indycar with the sponsor and windscreen

[granite tundra]

rear mounting points are slightly higher as well

[soft shadow]

Quite far from F1 but have Indy used the similar F1 Halo design in a testing?

I've only see them use the older windscreen design

[granite tundra]

er not to my knowledge

they trialled something similar to the original shield that was tested with ferrari

as well as the frontal protection device for 2019

[soft shadow]

That has got to be the most "bruhh" head protection device yet...

[short ether]

They used that frontal "nipple" per sé as a small deflector before a solution

[short ether]

@thorny thistle

https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/racefansdotnet-2021-floor.jpg

https://248009-770031-raikfcquaxqncofqfm.stackpathdns.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Aerodynamic-Regulations-–-visual-differentiation-5-1.jpg

[thorny thistle]

so yeah, they have floors

[short ether]

This floor I'm still sus of

Wdym they still have floors?

Did you expect them to not?

[thorny thistle]

Yeah so... like... I think the only F1 cars you can consider not Ground Effect are cars without floors at all

it was a joke lol

[short ether]

I see

It seems they have a middle streak of low pressure

Hopefully that front tray doesn't end up spec

[thorny thistle]

what front tray?

the thing where the bargeboards were?

the scoop as it were

cuz that isn't spec, at least for 22

[short ether]

The area where the floor starts, yeah

They're apparently making that a spec part

Which I... Y'know I don't think is best but I've complained about this

[granite tundra]

i dont think they are

unless the bounding boxes are so constrained theyre effectively forcing teams into the same solution

[thorny thistle]

That's like, most of where the technical differentiation comes from isn't it?

[granite tundra]

but i've not had a chance to load them into a model yet and check for myself

[thorny thistle]

Restricting that sounds like a bad time from a "F1 is about making the best car you can" kind of perspective

[short ether]

Yeah, hence I want different things

I don't think one will be more dirty than the other

Coz it's just a wing curve

[granite tundra]

i'm in two minds about it

i'm not convinced the inlets being spec would make a massive difference, i think teams are naturally going to converge to the same solution anyway

[short ether]

Probably...

[violet smelt]

im gonna miss the plank

[granite tundra]

hwat

the plank isn't going away

[violet smelt]

oh

i thought it was

nvm then

[granite tundra]

nah lol

i think the leading edge is moving back a little

[violet smelt]

ah fair

[short ether]

so will these new regs get rid of the huge rake you reckon? or they'll try it regardless to have even better air inside the tunnel

i;m not sure this would work actually.

[granite tundra]

quite frankly, i don't really know

i wouldn't be surprised if we see teams run lower rake angles, but the actual fundamental effect of the floors isn't changing, so i don't think it's going to have a big impact

though with a different diffuser position that could well come into play

i think something to consider though is that these changes co-incide with teams sort of starting to max out the philosophy of a high-rake concept

[soft shadow]

Red Bull definitely one of those

[fierce coyote]

I think this design is what Ferrari will do

[short ether]

The Blue boi?

[viscid turret]

Blue Ferrari

Oh dear

[short ether]

I'm just surprised why they think they'll go for the billnose and raised letterbox sidepods

[granite tundra]

the high sidepod inlets?

[short ether]

Yeah

I'm sure you could say well Ferrari are going for that, but everyone is rn

[granite tundra]

that's been a pretty common design evolution

ferrari were one of the first to give it a go back in ~2017

i expect to see everyone with raised sidepod inlets for 22

[twin ridge]

perhaps a dumb question and I'm missing the obvious, but does mercedes not actually see a performance deficit running a black livery when the suns out? Surely the car would get hotter, although idk if its a big heat difference

[granite tundra]

i mean it's going to have some effect on heating

but compared to the energy that's being put out by the internals, it's not going to be particularly notable

[twin ridge]

Ah okay, yeah makes sense

[short ether]

Black means it's not only a good absorber, but a good emitter

[cursive wraith]

it is not gonna be huge considering the cars drive really fast and the wind itself helps in cooling lmao

[short ether]

Ayo is it me or are the Engine bumps getting larger on the new set of F1 cars?

[granite tundra]

i'd say they're getting more pronounced, not larger

since the rest of the packaging is being shrunk even more

[short ether]

The Alpines' packaging doesn't look latex tight tho

Take that... However

Also... if the MGU-H were removed, do you guys honestly think we should go Twin-Turbo? Or do a CART and do the Single one offset 90°?

if we remove the mgu-h and get rid of the hybridation completely? or go back to mgu-k only

[nocturne dock]

cars gonna go slower

[granite tundra]

they wouldn't go any slower without an MGU-H

[short ether]

issue being?

[granite tundra]

outside of marginal issues with keeping the turbo spooled for corner exit

[nocturne dock]

issue being cars wont go as fast idk

[short ether]

Going to an MGU-K only system again, but slightly more powerful maybe to compensate

[granite tundra]

seems good in practice

increase regen and deploy limits for the MGU-K

[short ether]

I assume with the removal of the MGU-H, combined with increased use of biofuels, fuel delivery needs to be increased

Also get in the graphene batteries

[granite tundra]

why would fuel flow need to be increased if we took out the MGU-H?

[short ether]

if we keep this, then single turbo + spooling it with the electric motor like we do now i guess

i hope it's the motor that handles this bit lol, not sure at all but makes the most sense

[granite tundra]

the H is what spools up the turbo

[short ether]

shit i tried.

The H just stops it from lagging

[granite tundra]

https://giphy.com/gifs/reactionseditor-xUPGcl3ijl0vAEyIDK

[short ether]

I personally don't think it's necessary anymore

This isn't the 80's where you have 7 seconds of spool time with 5.5bar absolute

[granite tundra]

you could honestly offset the loss of the H by increasing the recovery limit for the K

plus something i never got was.. one of the reasons touted for bringing a turbo back was to make the cars a bit more harder to drive on corner exit

[short ether]

If you increased deployment of the K anyway, the torque compensation would be there

[granite tundra]

but you then add an integrated anti-lag system that costs a gazillion dollars

[short ether]

they probably forgot this reason

[granite tundra]

it would be easy as piss to beef up the MGU-K to offset the H

its performance has been artificially caped since 2014

[short ether]

otherwise they'd have put it in the rule after 2014 that the mgu-h can't spool the turbo

It's like trying to make an electric supercharger, combine it with a Turbo, then decide you also need an alternator on it

Either a Turbo or Electric Supercharger are alot easier to use

[granite tundra]

go up to like.. 200 hp/240nm for the K, ditch the H, and increase regen to ~3MJ/lap

[short ether]

240nm from 0? Pog

[granite tundra]

?

the MGU-K provides 200nm of torque atm

[short ether]

Yeah

Hence... like... 240nm from 0 to reach a peak combined of 560 or so

[granite tundra]

oh 0 mph?

[short ether]

Man current cars are mad torquey

Yeah

[granite tundra]

well...

they can't deploy below 100 km/h

[short ether]

ye i didn't get it either

Wait what?

[granite tundra]

at the start that is

[short ether]

Oh

Hence my question: Would Twin Turbos actually be necessary?

Because alot of people seem to think they starve exhaust efficiency, but I don't think that's necessarily true

[granite tundra]

tbh i don't think so

peak power is pretty independent of the MGU-H already, the bigger concern would be the loss of energy recovery, but that can easily be compensated for by the MGU-K

this is if you're looking at trying to keep similar one-lap and long run pace

that's actually something else i don't get

recovery/deployment was limited on the K to try and prevent a tech war.. but it's unlimited on the MGU-H, which is a lot more complicated?

[short ether]

I thought it was limited to like 400kj

[granite tundra]

nope

MGU-H recovery is totally unlimited

[short ether]

BRU-H

[granite tundra]

same with deployment

no limits on what you send to the ES, CE, turbo or K

outside of each component's storage limit

because.. who fucking knows at this point

[short ether]

Bro

Just go to the Audi Monoturbo Variable geometry one

[worthy monolith]

Here's the Renault E-tech technical specifications:

[short ether]

This isn't specific to the Renault... It's just what the regs allow

[worthy monolith]

Yep

[short ether]

Name a current F1 V6 that can rev above 13,200

Sus

950 is too much

It's a lie lmao

Wdym that's a lie?

F1 engines broke 1,000 a couple years ago now

Oh lol

Ok

[worthy monolith]

I mean aren't engines rarely exceeding 12,000 rpm during qualifying and race, due to the fuel flow restrictions?
I'm not too sure since I'm not well versed with the technical regulations.

[short ether]

Neither am I

Tbh

Yeah, essentially they can't run it that high because the 100kg/hr fuel flow limit basically puts a cap on the amount of boost and revs they can run

In the race it's even moreso, as the cars have to run 110kg across 80-90~ minutes

[pale shell]

They were running at 11,500/12K between 2014-2017 But I think 2018 till now they're running constant 12K/12,700 if not 13K

Well actually I think the RPMs are a bit lower, 2014-2017 at least the mercs had optimal Power/torque at 12,300 and now they have it at 11,600

[short ether]

Where's this figure coming from?

Also unsurprising if their MGU-K was a bit under the weather last year

[pale shell]

the limited telemetry we get from F1TV or places we can watch F1 basically

[crimson granite]

Nah current engines are hitting like 985. Without the engine modes rules Mercedes were hitting like 1000 HP

[short ether]

... They've been hitting 1,000

Quali anyway

[short ether]

Is it just me or the Alpine is thiccccer than the Mclaren?

[abstract pawn]

Quite a lot yes

[pale shell]

Could be the editing itself and because of the cameras and angles too

[short ether]

or just how the PUs are packaged

[obsidian abyss]

Renault PUs are big

iirc RB complained about them being too big that they couldnt do the aero properly or something like that

[mint sand]

its one of the reasons why the 2018 red bull was so unreliable

red bull packed it too tightly, similar to McLaren in 2017

[obsidian abyss]

yep

[left quest]

it definitely is

I have some F1 diecasts

and I compared them from a birds eye view

and the renault powered cars are wider than the merc for example

[pale shell]

IDK if you guys find it interesting but here goes the "optimal" RPMs on Torque/Power for each engine in 2014 compared to 2020 (less Honda)
Renault 2014 - 10,000/10,200
Renault 2020 - 11,300/11,500
Mercedes 2014 - 12,300
Mercedes 2020 - 11,500/11,700
Ferrari 2014 - 11,500/12,000
Ferrari 2020 - 11,500

[short ether]

interesting, where'd you find this?

[short ether]

Wow that's even lower than I thought

I thought the peak was about 13,200 or so

[obsidian abyss]

thats optimal, not peak

[short ether]

Ooooh

[pale shell]

sry to tag, it's just from telemetry given by F1TV and other TV sources, since not even the other teams can't get info imagine mere mortal spectators like us.

[short ether]

okok

[grand silo]

How does the telemetry give optimal rpm

[short ether]

Because I assume the Optimal rpm is the range between the Peak Torque and Peak Power figures, which is measured by Accel sensors on the rear axles in order to measure how much power the MGU's are putting in to not exceed the amount stated

tbh, for a F1 engine, the difference between peak and "average" power isn't that big

the gear boxes etc are designed to keep the engine very close to its peak power

Well no, that's not quite... What they mean

The gearboxes are geared and have so many gears that they can keep in that rev range, as the "Optimal" is essentially the revs you're aiming for to be in the middle of where you shifted from, and the next one you're shifting to

The peaks of Torque and Power are not very wide, and they're both very close to eachother in the rev range

So basically you want to shift from just after the peak power, to the next gear which is right under the peak torque

Like... Especially the Later V10's

[short ether]

When the power drops into delivery, is to keep the turbo spinning enough to keep things going, then when you hit the accel at the end of the corner, that's when you get that sudden drop to send 130-135kw of power to it

@granite tundra

[granite tundra]

this is where my knowledge of the internals of the H falls down

[short ether]

The different "rev caps" are essentially boost gauges

[granite tundra]

just to clarify- when i was talking about the RPM limit, i meant the 125k for the H, not for the turbo

[short ether]

...

But they're on the same shaft

The MGU-H cannot be at a different speed to the Turbo

[granite tundra]

wait so where are you pulling 150k from?

[short ether]

...

Is it not 150,000?

Oh 125,000...

[granite tundra]

125k according to 2020

ok yeah that was me being silly

[short ether]

Right

What're you confused on?

[granite tundra]

i dont even know any more lmao

[short ether]

I assume if you started harvesting more than 75kw, you might start getting compressor surge

[granite tundra]

i think my confusion was like.. IF we assume the H can only handle 75kw in one direction, how can it handle ~130 in the other?

tbh at this point i need to sleep and think about it tomorrow

[short ether]

Because nothing generates as much as it can give

I've never known an electric motor than can brake with the same force as it can give to get going

That's not how that works

[granite tundra]

actually that makes sense

[short ether]

If the chart was the other way around it'd make sense

So the troughs would be the peaks, because that's power delivered

[granite tundra]

my logic was just that there was a mechanical limitation preventing you passing more than 75kw through

[short ether]

.... I would assume there is

Wait

[granite tundra]

if there is, then how are you sending 130kw to the turbo?

[short ether]

... By being an electric motor?

The same way you'd give it to the engine?

[granite tundra]

oh for fucks sake

this is what happens when i don't sleep enough

[short ether]

Right

[granite tundra]

yeah i get you

[short ether]

I'll DM you in the morning or whenever I wake up

[granite tundra]

i'll try to have a look at this paper when i'm functioning on more than a few hours of sleep

what you said makes sense

[short ether]

But... Right you don't get that a 130kw motor can't recover 130kw

But... Right it's too much, good night, ill be another hour

[granite tundra]

no no, i do

but my monkey brain wasn't even considering it as a motor

i was thinking solely in terms of the mechanical limit being same for both directions.. or something, idk at this point

either way i'll send you the stuff tomorrow

[granite tundra]

@short ether hello, have more MGU-H bullshit

transient torque supply/absorption

[short ether]

Oh so it... Yeah coz of the revs

[granite tundra]

so it's going from supplying torque to the turbo to spin it up, to absorbing it at just past 300ms

[short ether]

It makes like no torque 😅

[granite tundra]

yeah it's pretty interesting to see how low it is

there's a potential limitation to this report though

because it's a theoretical analysis, it's working with an assumed turbo lag of 0.3s

so they're working off time to accelerate to target rpm of 0.3s, which is obviously going to affect the power flow

good visualisation of how aggressive MGU-K deployment is during quali as well

[short ether]

KW... El?

[granite tundra]

not actually sure eL is

i think it's just some sort of fucked up nomenclature

because kr/min is just (1000) rpm

[short ether]

Oh wow... So it recovers on straights?