f1-technical

[tribal karma]

and max is a murderer

[vestal depot]

Zhou, Hamilton, and Grosjean probably would have died, Leclerc perhaps with a season or career ending head injury.

[tribal karma]

kinda funny how they were saying halo is useless in the first place

[vestal depot]

And while the Indycar aeroscreen is an alternative I prefer the halo as it still provides the similar driving effects as traditional single seats.

[flat imp]

Leclerc 100% would’ve got a spinal injury or died from Fernando’s car landing on top of him

[tribal karma]

i feel like aeroscreens will have a worse time for f1 because of the wet racing

[wraith acorn]

if the w13’s main problem was the ride height, why didn’t it get improved on in the w14? i get that the zeropods made it so that the car’s rear was unstable, but this year’s car seems like it tried to get rid of the porpoising only

[opaque arch]

The main issue of the w13 and w14 is aero balance. The rear is so loosy as there is no structural support to stabilize the floor. The floor moves too much making the car really unpredictable before the corner entry. This requires chassis upgrade and in long term the undercut concept is easier to develop and to improve so they got rid of the zero sidepod. Anyway sidepod is not actually the most important element in current regulations. Its the floor combine with the beam wing and rear wing. In terms of ride height, the w14 is actually quite low. In comparison, the w14 is actually lower than the rb19 in singapore.

@tall wyvern am i right?

[edgy anchor]

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/404304_b3ce8e4f6b1e4c5d90a5b94903e47f0a~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_640,h_426,al_c,q_80,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01,enc_auto/404304_b3ce8e4f6b1e4c5d90a5b94903e47f0a~mv2.jpg

My brother in IndyCar Ministries

They couldn't do the Aeroscreen afaik because they're dead set on overhead intake snorkels which would then have alot less air to pull in

[tribal karma]

I see now

Thank you

[edgy anchor]

While they don't race Wet Ovals, there's not a problem with them racing in the rain overall

[coral glade]

I'm ngl

imo

aeroscreen>halo

maybe it's just how the chassis is designed but I just love it

more protection aswell

[flat imp]

I like the aero screen aesthetically yeah

[proper mantle]

I always wondered what the point of blowers "cooling" the cars down when the ambient air is super hot (Singapore and other hot countries)

[blissful pollen]

they put dry ice in the blowers thats why you see "steam" blowing out of the leaf blower things that they shove into the sidepods and the drivers faces

[limpid token]

even if ambient it 35°C, the car's radiators will be way higher, brakes order of magnitude even above

[edgy anchor]

https://x.com/AlbertFabrega/status/1705016513877684584?s=20

Albert Fabrega (@AlbertFabrega)

Fotos de la unidad de potencia de Honda de 2021. Increíble 😍

2021 Honda's power unit pictures. Amazing😍
#f1 #JapaneseGP

Likes

6286

Retweets

807

Twitter · Sep 22, 2023, 12:29 AM

[ashen kelp]

Wouldn it be technologically possible to fit a electric motor in the front axle of a F1 car, making it AWD?

[opaque arch]

its gonna be too op and its not gonna be the same f1

[ashen kelp]

i was thinking if the ERS energy was used in the front axle as elecrric motors

[opaque arch]

Its gonna make team overspend to pack a motor in the front wheel

[ashen kelp]

which can also be used to retrive energy while braking

[opaque arch]

Under budget cap there is no way doing it

especially dampers and suspension parts so tightly in the front

its gonna make things more complicated and teams gonna design new front suspension to fit a new motor

new ecu units are also required if they make it awd

[limpid token]

FE has it, but F1 teams rejected it

[zenith pumice]

it would, teams just don’t want to

added complexities and therefore R&D time, costs associated, etc

[ashen kelp]

f1 teams when they are told to utilize the pinnacle of technology :

[deft burrow]

aka, they dont want audi to be better than them at something

[zenith pumice]

that’s the official way of putting it yes

[edgy anchor]

Yes, that was an explored option for 2026

However they even ditched front wheel recharge and now critics are up saying there's an extra 30kg of fuel that doesn't need to be burnt

[amber kraken]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hrYCN148Mw

[charred pecan]

What RedBull is trying to avoid for Perez (Section 54.3 of the F1 2023 regulations)

[limpid token]

yes, they had unserved penalty from the last contact

and they probably argued about it for like half an hour that its stupid to go out

but in the end, they went out

[molten thorn]

And I suppose that parc fermé conditions dont apply during the race, so they were able to fix whatever caused them to retire him the first time? To then send him out for a lap on used softs and box to serve the 2nd 5s pen to then retire again? I'm just trying to get my head around how they did that

[formal estuary]

They didn't have to fix anything it was still broken af

[ancient scaffold]

How will McLaren fare in the next 6 races in terms of the tracks left and how they suit their car

[limpid token]

my guess

Qatar - P2
COTA - P3
Mexico -
Brazil - P3
Vegas - P4
AD - P4

[coral glade]

P2 behind RB
P3 behind RB and Ferrari
P4 behind RB, Ferrari, and Merc
P3 behind RB and Merc
P4 behind RB, Ferrari, and Merc
P3 behind RB and Merc

drag is gonna be the death of them

although they've been less draggy recently

[limpid token]

AD is just two straights and bunch of slow corners, i dont feel like it will suit them either

but they might bring '24 stuff that makes that work

[brave field]

They didnt. FIA just said yes

[unkempt haven]

Hello Guys,
I have a little question about the torque in a motor. Because I asked a few questions to google and ChatGPT and I havent understood it yet. My question: If the pressure and the compression in a chamber increase because of a turbo charger, the explosion will go more efficient, but the torque wont rise, right? ChatGPT and Google said it will rise but I dont understand why

[upper ivy]

Well the turbocharger helps to make the explosions stronger.

Which means the explosion will force down the cylinder with a stronger force. As this downward-motion is translated into rotation of the shaft, the downward force is also translated into torque. So more force means more torque.

[unkempt haven]

torque to lift the piston up?

[upper ivy]

depending on where they are in the cycle, other pistons will of course be pushed up with the equivalent force

[unkempt haven]

oh

[unkempt haven]

i got it, thanks

[edgy anchor]

If you increase pressure against the cylinder you increase Torque

Because you're forcing it... With more Force?

A turbocharger's efficiency is based on being able to put more pressure into the same chamber without much if any parasitic loss on the engine

To increase the efficiency without a torque increase you'd need to drop the specs of the engine by itself

[final dust]

Are there any active (or past) research about improving the safety of the drivers from a side impact following the death of Anthoine Hubert and Dilano van 't Hoff?

[craggy moon]

make it a spec mart then

or something like the wheel nuts are

you can develop it but the other teams get to use it

eAWD would make f1 both more road relevant with more cars being awd because of hybrid or electric

and faster

[civic fern]

They should get rid of fuel flow limit and just have a fuel cap

heres 100 kg of fuel for the whole race

If you run out of gas and DNF, turn down your engine until your R&D keeps up in efficiency (Renault will find a way to be this)

If you’re 2016 Mercedes and only need 90 kg to finish a race 30 seconds ahead of the pack, congrats and enjoy the weight savings

If you’re 2019 Ferrari who could’ve done the above but want to WOT on the straights you can do that too

[edgy anchor]

I agree but also there's the concern of a massive power difference between quali and the race which is cool but... Idk... Irks me

[craggy moon]

that would be cool tho

the quali engines from the 80s were mental

high engine maps, one shot quali, only car on track

would make some absolutly amazing specatular laps

Champ position to determine order

[amber kraken]

Oh boy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kpoiu2WDlNE

[prime mortar]

tbh i seriously think that the aston martin engineers were slacking off after their great start and when it caught up to them they threw out half assed upgrades that sometimes slowed down the car (the slower Suzuka Q3 lap than last year) now I think from a business perspective there should be a engineering overhaul for their big 2024 development year

[opaque arch]

Do you know how complicated the front suspension is? Just look at this. Poor and mid-field teams can't afford to develop another front wheel drive powertrain

[craggy moon]

That’s why I said make it spec

So they don’t have to

[opaque arch]

Then its not f1

I like rav4

btw

ur username

[craggy moon]

F1 literally means formula

[opaque arch]

lol

[craggy moon]

1

Thx

Sitting in it right now lmao

Just chilling

[opaque arch]

jeep and landrovers are overrated

[craggy moon]

Fact

[opaque arch]

they broke down so often but toyota doesn't

[craggy moon]

This thing is on 150000 miles and still going strong

[opaque arch]

I own the 2023 rav4 and its good

[craggy moon]

2013 😎

[craggy moon]

if we want 100% bespoke f1 cars then why dont teams make their own tires

or work with their own manufactures

this is why they are spec

to even extra costs out

the awd would also make really wet races safer and a wet spa could be way more manageable for drivers

one of the few ways to make the cars much faster and safer at the same time

[flat imp]

The costs got quite steep when there were multiple manufacturers in there because you had a team like Ferrari partnering pretty much to make bespoke tires for their cars

[craggy moon]

exactly

this is why we have spec tires

why not have a spec awd system

or package it in with the power unit

[severe knoll]

we don;t want tire wars

• plus the costs

[craggy moon]

tire wars are kind of fun tho

lets just ignore 2005 indy

or 68? talledaga

[flat imp]

I think bc that's much more car dependent. You'd want that sort of thing to be completely integrated into car design

Build the car around it

[craggy moon]

could also be optional

like KERS was

be slower but cheaper

[flat imp]

Then there's not much of a point in making it spec tbf

It's not like new teams would get into the sport because of that when there's..... a massive upfront price existing atm

[craggy moon]

teams want to get in because its popular

more manufactures would want to join because awd is more road relivant that rwd today

[flat imp]

Yeah, so no incentive to make a spec awd system, and it's not like the sport doesn't require obscene investment upfront so the teams who are getting in now can probably afford to make their own

[prime mortar]

I think if f1 was ever to go AWD it would be electric motors up front

but I think f1 should stay RWD

or like he said like kers where its optional and faster but more expensive

and there would be a limit to the power distribution

like 30 front 70 back

and it could be switched off to recharge the batteries even faster

especially with the 2026 cars that will be way more reliant on the MGU-K

[vestal depot]

I agree, RWD is the way single seaters were intended to be.

[prime mortar]

so you can spinout and get decapitated

not understeer like a fwd

Also something that not everyone knows is that teams are actually permitted to use superchargers, but none do cause a turbocharger is better

[edgy anchor]

The idea was not necessarily to drive the front but harvest off of it

[vestal depot]

I mean in video games I have a tendency to spin out on acceleration, that's because throttle control is a challenge that professional drivers have to master, you make it AWD and it becomes easier.

[opaque arch]

use traction control then

[unkempt haven]

I think this picture is a bit better to understand

[unkempt haven]

thank you

[vestal depot]

Obviously I do but the more you put on the slower you tend to be.

[edgy anchor]

You either increase torque by increasing the pressure pushing down or by increasing stroke which increases the Lever arm action

[opaque arch]

ye but tbh f1 2023 traction is actually quite easy to control just remember the faster you enter a corner, the earlier you can apply the throttle cuz downforce

[silent rose]

i have 22 and its terrible

i switched back to f1 2019 and was like
woah
where'd all the grip come from

best bit is that car was a 1990 ferrari

[leaden hollow]

https://www.f1technical.net/f1db/cars/810/mclaren-mp4-13
Apparently the mp4-13 was fitted with a sort of MGU-K system back in 1998 using the third brake pedal

pretty interesting fact im only just finding out

At the same time, it also became clear that McLaren was using brake energy to generate electrical power that is stored in batteries. This electricity is then used to run auxiliary pumps on the engine to push out an additional 30 to 40 hp for a limited period.

[prime mortar]

tbh buy 23, I also didnt want to but did and man is it different

it feels way more real

and the sense of speed is better imo

[silent rose]

cool

waiting till its discounted

[zenith pumice]

that’s very interesting, though I can’t find any other source to back this up

[opaque arch]

ye f1 2022 is ridiculous

[blazing saffron]

McLaren having a third brake pedal around this time is relatively well-known though

[zenith pumice]

yeah, was talking about the battery

[blazing saffron]

yeah I figured, though I thought that was also known already

at least the 3rd pedal making them a little bit faster

yeah I didn't know the battery thing either so that was surprising

[zenith pumice]

because I remember Newey, Paddy Lowe, and Neil Oatley (who developed it) said that they just attached another master cylinder for the 3rd brake pedal

Nichols recalls how he talked to Paddy Lowe, head of R&D at the time, about the possibility of an extra brake pedal to operate a rear brake on one side of the car.

“I told him I wanted to try this thing where we have an extra pedal in the car, and we put the right-rear or left-rear brake on to balance the car.”

https://smart-motoring.com/latest-news/mclarens-extra-brake-pedal-that-disrupted-f1/

nowhere did I ever read that the MP4/13 had batteries or a motor-generator unit for the engine

[blazing saffron]

yeah me neither

[zenith pumice]

and, tbh, I don’t think either of those were worth it at the time considering how heavy batteries would’ve been back then, how complex integrating an MGU would’ve been into the powertrain, and all for 30-40hp extra

[blazing saffron]

yeah he says there that all they had to do was put an extra cylinder

and yeah

[zenith pumice]

which is why I’m wondering, what other source would confirm this?

[zenith pumice]

pretty much, it’s just independent asymmetrical braking. it wouldn’t have been that tough to add

[blazing saffron]

yeah, also it would make the most sense for the time period

damn, who would've thought that simply putting one extra part in the car and wiring it to specifically one area of the car would make it behave so differently

[paper reef]

how i fixing my f1 tv on my mobile? the app doesn’t work

[prime mortar]

Pretty good book, the start can be a little boring to people who just want to get to the Red Bull era. But to most people its relatively interesting to see where his design signatures came from

[prime mortar]

not exactly technical but its not the end of the world, just see if your subscription expired

[flat imp]

Oh wait just saw this. Good shit. I really enjoyed it, it's easily one of the best F1 memoirs on offer

[prime mortar]

or sign out and back in, I had that issue as well when I got f1tv pro on my laptop and it didnt show on my mobile app

[civic fern]

*Sebastian Vettel era

There was a 10 year gap where Newey didn’t win a single championship between Hakkinen and Vettel

It seems like fully blown factory teams (Ferrari, Mercedes) led by another superstar engineering talent (Brawn, Allison) are the only things capable of stopping Newey

[amber kraken]

They either going to bounce back or they'll have a McLaren 2004/Ferrari 2005 moment next year
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSwFCEadGLg

[flat imp]

Just give him a real shit engine 💀

[civic fern]

The early 2000s McLarens werent exactly masterpieces

[tribal karma]

What was the finest formula 1 car ever

[flat imp]

In terms of sheer style I'll always argue the Lotus 25, it was just a beautiful car, and I'll also give it my nod for design. Revolutionary for the time, and then obliterated the competition

But

I'm also biased

As the name might imply

[tribal karma]

Toss speed aside what was most beautiful f1 car?

Yes I do see ur name

[flat imp]

Oh then the Lotus 25 easy for me

[tribal karma]

I see

[flat imp]

If there's no other consideration outside of aesthetics I love the look of it

[tribal karma]

Would u mind sending a picture of the lotus 25?

[flat imp]

She speaks to me

[tribal karma]

Ah I see

A fine machine Indeed

[flat imp]

Ig also the first car that made me really take note of F1 is the MP4-20

Beauty

Love this car

[tribal karma]

For me it was a Ferrari 2015 I think

Long time ago

I got a model of it from my dad

[flat imp]

Nice

[tribal karma]

Dunno where it went

😭

[sweet tree]

why is thsi car so hot

these things are wicked

[flat imp]

Exactly

It's a sick-ass car

Looked great shame it had a knack for breaking

[sweet tree]

I watched the 2005 Canadian GP a couple hours ago

Did I fall alseep?

Yes

[flat imp]

Have you watched 2005 Suzuka yet

This is very important

[sweet tree]

a while ago yeah

[flat imp]

Good

[sweet tree]

Kimi v Schumacher towards the end

but I couldn't help but admire the Mclaren

this era of cars look the best imo

[flat imp]

As you should

That McLaren was gorgeous

Also 05 Canada not to be shamelessly biased or anything was Jenson's second pole position

[sweet tree]

He did the funny in the race

also Juantoya being black flagged was shocking to me

i didnt know ignoring the red light in the pits was a black flag

[flat imp]

Yeah I don't think they'd do that nowadays

[sweet tree]

i think that's the only race I've watched where someone was black flagged

[flat imp]

1994 SIlverstone was deeply unserious

If you want another race where a driver gets flagged

[sweet tree]

wait i just realized we are in technical

and not classic

[flat imp]

Oh shit my bad

We can move there

[sharp sundial]

@tall wyvern do you have anything I can read regarding beam wings? Just a general overview

[long drift]

srs question? what's stopping teams from creating a racing series with cars that look oddly similar to F1 but just slightly different and just develop those cars as a way to cheat the cost cap

[proven verge]

they'd be putting money into that instead of F1?

[sweet tree]

im kinda confused by the question

[long drift]

so what's stopping a team like Alpine from creating a racing series with cars that look very similar to F1

and they develop that car and use the data from it to enchance the F1 car

without breaking the cost cap

or bypassing wind tunnel times

[sweet tree]

that would be so much money

[long drift]

or testing upgrades before races to see if they would work as intended

[sweet tree]

and time

[long drift]

teams used to spend 500 mil a season before the cost cap

[sweet tree]

williams would not be able to afford that

creating a racing series to get data for F1

[long drift]

obv they wouldn't

i'm talking about the teams that are capable

[sweet tree]

wouldnt that defeat the purpose of the cost cap

[zenith pumice]

TD45, as it is known, states that while teams remain free to run these special projects divisions, any IP from them that is used by F1 teams must be accounted for under the cost cap, so cannot come from free sources within the same company.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-cost-cap-loophole-closed-off-by-fia/10486591/

the other obvious point being that knowledge transfer from non-f1 race cars to f1 race cars is stupidly difficult and would anyway require adaption to work on f1 cars, therefore being classified under the R&D cost

[zenith pumice]

well, technical directive 45 lol

[glacial vigil]

Fórmula 1 means the cars stick to a certain formula, not sure it would be that easy to change the car slightly and not have it part of those rules

[tribal karma]

The f1 engine rules are the goofiest thing ever

Like just say

Here's 100 Liters of fuel

Make what ever u want with it

[sweet tree]

what

[coral glade]

??? lmao

[sweet tree]

atp i feel like i'm the dumb one

[coral glade]

yeah fr

same

[sweet tree]

and all of these statements are just too advanced for me

[edgy anchor]

That's Group C

[flat imp]

I want them back

[edgy anchor]

You can blame Max and BErnie for that one

[flat imp]

Fear not. I do.

[edgy anchor]

ayyy

[zinc bison]

Why did they use the outer loop and not the endurance circuit at the 2020 Sakhir GP?

[frigid temple]

Afaik they never elaborated on why. I'd imagine it has something to do with grade 1 certification and/or laptimes being too long

[zinc bison]

Thanks

[amber kraken]

So it's either the HAAS approach, getting parts from another team, or the Racing Point 2020 approach for Alphatuari's car design next year
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxowMSGsaFI

[tribal karma]

Both will get backlash tho

[frigid temple]

The Tracing Point was the result of 3D scanning which was subsequently banned

If alpha tauri decides to buy as many parts as allowed and copy the rest by the naked eye that isn’t any different from what any other customer team can currently do

[craggy moon]

How did they get the car to scan?

[tall wyvern]

Sorry, nothing specific. They’re fairly intuitive as a concept though. Attached is the static pressure around a wing. Blue is low pressure, which causes suction to areas of higher pressure around it. Now if you place this wing so that that suction is acting at the trailing edge of the diffuser (like a beam wing), that suction pulls more air through the floor. Beam wings by themselves are incredibly inefficient because they have a short span and a fairly long chord. They exist purely to work the floor harder, which is very efficient.

[civic fern]

i assume the blue zone for the diffuser below outweighs the red zone making the rear wing above less effective?

[severe gulch]

are these mclarens best upgrades in the span of a decade?

[civic fern]

in terms of position, definitely. they went from almost backmarker to the 2nd best

in actual time gap, the midfield has been a lot tighter so its easier to leagfrog multiple teams even if your car only got 2 tenths faster

[tall wyvern]

Generally yes, or there would be no beam wing. It is a trade off though. You could try it yourself if you wanted in 2D, just draw a simple diffuser and a couple of wing profiles, one low one high, and see what happens when you move it around or remove it.

[sharp sundial]

Thanks. Camber means there would be a bulge in the center right?

[tall wyvern]

Not exactly, if you imagine a straight line between the leading edge and the trailing edge of an aerofoil, that’s called the chord line. The camber is how much the average distance between the upper/lower surface differs from the chord line. So in a symmetrical aerofoil, which is an aerofoil with no camber, the upper and lower surfaces are equal distances from the chord line.

[tribal karma]

I feel dumb reading this

[edgy anchor]

Chord: straight line from Start to finish point
Camber: average curve away from the Chord

[tribal karma]

I see

[civic fern]

unfortunately i don't have STAR-CCM+ anymore

[flat imp]

I'm so sorry for your loss

[civic fern]

this was something i ran into when i was messing around with curved endplate mounts after comp

it slowed down the flow under the real rear wing and made it significantly worse

there were different variations that all look something like this

[flat imp]

Hm. Not Ideal.

[tall wyvern]

Time to give openfoam a go?

[civic fern]

I currently have an i5-7400 with 32 gb of non-ecc ram. Will it run

[civic fern]

I just moved and gonna wait for a couple paychecks before i go buying upgrades. The last thing i can really do to the PC is a 1650, after that it would take a new motherboard so it can handle a bigger PSU

[tall wyvern]

It will run 2D easy

Might as well have a mess around, it’s desirable to f1 teams too

[civic fern]

I suppose its worthwhile

I dont think F1 team is in my future

I work in aerospace in the US

[flat imp]

Keep that money lmao

If openfoam is applicable to your field tho go for it

[craggy moon]

Why do Mercedes wheel guns sound so different to other teams? They are way more high pitched. Do they just have a higher rpm? But wouldn’t that mean they would have an advantage in the stops?

I thought they would be a spec thing

[spice dune]

Any suggestions for a youtube channel that explains technical stuff?

[craggy moon]

maybe some old loophole that was exploited

or something similar

maybe like the blown diffuser or that weird octopus exaust thing

[zenith pumice]

B-Sport does it well

[craggy moon]

Oh

Lmao

[amber kraken]

I knew the SF90 was quick as hell, most probably due to its engine/Power Unit, but I never expected it to be this quick compared to the other Ferraris
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZvVAOuOPQA&ab_channel=FormulaAddict

[uncut swan]

It's easier to be a lot faster when you're not following the rules...

[amber kraken]

Although, the SF-71-H is quicker on the last corners and on the final straight

[amber kraken]

This really goes to show just how frecking OP the 2020 Mercedes was
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69-F9YGHf5w

[craggy moon]

Hmm

I wonder which the fastest was?

Crazy to think only one of those won both championships

[formal estuary]

20 by far

[craggy moon]

Twas a joke

[amber kraken]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iIjalhIfvQ

[vestal depot]

https://www.grandprix247.com/2023/10/17/steiner-we-changed-the-concept-because-we-couldnt-make-gains/amp/

[vestal depot]

I mean it's kinda a shame that the widepod concept doesn't have the development potential but obviously teams will do whatever will make them fastest.

[merry delta]

https://twitter.com/AlbertFabrega/status/1714780696915365907

and since I am having an epic embed fail, here's the image on that post

[flat imp]

Albert Faberga carrying us nerds on his back 🙏

[autumn hill]

I’m not too sure, however all wheel guns are allegedly provided by the same company (added below), and then the teams customise them? Could be something to do with that as there’s no FIA requirements on the gun itself, just the nuts.

https://www.dinopaoli.com/motorsport/

But yeah, design of the guns and wheel nuts are up to the constructors

[ancient scaffold]

I mean, Ferrari abandoned it, it was only a matter of time

Haas cars are basically last years Ferrari but worse

[daring wedge]

Did you make this on your own? Or made your own modifications? Or just followed the manual

[silent rose]

Modded design, just moved the shocks more horizontal

[true pendant]

I don't understand why Hamilton and leclerc are disqualified if both their cars have that titanium thing that sparks to protect the plank from getting eaten away.

[limpid token]

It does wear as well and only a very small part is the spark-titanium

[rugged rain]

bc it wore away more than allowed, there are specific setup rules and they set the car lower than allowed i think which made the titanium part drag along the racetrack more

[craggy moon]

Is the reason for it safety or maintaining equal competition

[zenith pumice]

equal competition. it prevents teams from running their cars too low and therefore gaining an unfair advantage

[charred shadow]

The Mercedes works best when it's really close to the ground

[crimson granite]

no it isnt for maintaining equal competition

its a safety measure

[zenith pumice]

no, it’s to prevent them from running too low and gaining advantages associated from that

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/why-do-formula-1-cars-spark/6839483/

plus, https://youtu.be/J32ML9I8T4E?si=TXXiRB2GHAeBMOFm

that’s why there’s a minimum ride height and the planks are therefore checked if they’re worn. if they are, the cars are running too low to the ground and thus “unfair” according to the rules

[crimson granite]

https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/the-rule-breach-that-led-to-hamilton-and-leclerc-austin-dsqs/#:~:text=The plank was introduced from,and Ayrton Senna were killed.

The plank was introduced from the 1994 German Grand Prix as part of a series of safety-driven rules modifications resulting from the tragedies at Imola that year when Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna were killed.

Amid concerns about the speed of cars, the 10mm wooden plank (well, a high-density wood laminate) was bolted to the bottom of the cars. This led to the ride height being raised and therefore less underfloor downforce generated.

[zenith pumice]

You may have noticed planks of wood on the floor of Formula 1 cars, on the rare occasion that the underside is visible. The purpose of this ‘skid block’ is to ensure that all cars are following the ride height regulations. If the wooden plank has been worn down by more than a millimeter at the end of a race, that car will be disqualified.

https://f1experiences.com/blog/f1-questions-you-always-had-but-were-afraid-to-ask

The plank does not in itself restrict airflow under the car. It is used as a gauge which restricts the minimum ride height attainable by the car. The closer the car is to the ground, the more efficient the front wing and rear diffuser.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skid_block#:~:text=This material is still used,front wing and rear diffuser.

[crimson granite]

The higher the down force levels, the faster a driver may corner. Cornering loads can push the car down much lower to the road, which can be dangerous and so the skid block was introduced to counteract this.

the next line of the wikipedia article you sent

[zenith pumice]

I’m aware, and it also says it’s enforced to restrict the minimum ride height, along with f1experiences themselves saying the same, and the Autosport article I linked also saying the same

it was introduced as a safety feature but is applied as a method to check ride height now. obviously, every team wants to run lower to get more downforce

[crimson granite]

yes thats my point its mainly a safety measure and was always intended to be

sure you can say it helps with levelling performance

[zenith pumice]

the whole “increased downforce levels = faster cornering = dangerous” idea there is kind of limited by its scope

[crimson granite]

but the entire intention of introducing a plank was for safety

[zenith pumice]

and the reason for the disqualification and it’s application in modern motorsport is also as a method to check if the car runs too low or not

[crimson granite]

sure

[zenith pumice]

teams tried to exploit this back before 2022, using different “soft mountings” to prevent the plank from wearing down too much while still being able to run the car lower

[crimson granite]

but its not purely to maintain an equal playing field

[zenith pumice]

no, but it is enforced in that spirit

[crimson granite]

sure

[zenith pumice]

The thickness of the plank assembly measured normal to the lower surface must be 10mm ± 0.2mm and must be uniform when new. A minimum thickness of 9mm will be accepted due to wear, and conformity to this provision will be checked at the peripheries of the designated holes.
article 3.5.9(e) of the technical regulations says this.

do you think fia would be that concerned about the safety of the car that only 1mm of wear is enough for them to disqualify? sure, maybe, but you can see how this is used as a form of levelling the playing field

[crimson granite]

sure

ig so yea

[tall wyvern]

It is for safety

[short ether]

wait the plank is for safety??

I always thought they just had it to measure wear

[limpid token]

its more in a sense of bottoming out -> losing grip unexpectedly -> danger

[true pendant]

can it be said the reason ham was gaining on max was because he had a slight ride height advantage?

[abstract pawn]

No

[frigid temple]

Max was nursing a brake issue from lap 1

[true pendant]

I wanna see by how much that plank was worn

i hope its not something ridiculous like 0.004mm

[frigid temple]

for Leclerc it was reportedly tenths of a mm

[true pendant]

come on that can be excused man

[frigid temple]

nope

[sick ermine]

More than allowed or total?

[frigid temple]

More than allowed

[rotund kelp]

Tenths and hundredths matter in F1

[short ether]

No it can't

[short ether]

Even the smallest breach of technical regulations is still a breach, hence it must be punished accordingly

[acoustic condor]

apologies for what feels like a stupid question, but given 2 of the randomly selected 4 failed that check, and given the amount of money in F1 these days, why can't/doesn't F1 just test all 20 cars (or at least however many finish, or maybe finish in points)? AFAICT we have no reason to believe Sainz and Russell wouldn't have failed the same checks for the same reasons at a minimum.

[merry delta]

time

[acoustic condor]

There's already checks that happen to all 20 cars ("tire pressures, fuel samples, torque control and oil consumption"), just apply the additional checks (aero, bodywork, floor, plank) to all 20 instead of a random selection. As it stands, the points results are very much affected by the 'random' selections, which seems unfair.

I realize it won't be the case in 2023, but it's very realistic that WDC or WCC could be determined based on the 'random' selections, which seems just bizarre to be considered acceptable.

[flat imp]

I know people mentioned there was a smell coming off of Hamilton and Leclerc's cars, but honestly that kind of evidence is anecdotal and I agree that it would've been ideal to check at a minimum the teammates, and ideally more given that there's 2 different teams of 4 presumably randomly selected cars that have issues. However there's the personnel and staffing issue (some checks are more complex than others) and given that Hamilton and Leclerc were called in quite late it was past the point where other cars could be called in

Most of the time this sort of thing isn't really a problem. Over the course of a full season anyone "getting away with it" would probably have that advantage evened out, and it's unlikely that a team would take that risk to begin with

This weekend is was somewhat anomalous given that the track itself was very bumpy and there was very minimal setup time

[acoustic condor]

agreed - trying to call in the other 16 cars after seeing 2 of 4 fail would be difficult. Hence asking to just have all tested.

[flat imp]

To that effect I think it'd probably be a good idea to revisit parc ferme rules for the sprint weekends

But there's just not enough time in an afternoon after a race to conduct every single potential check and then also call people in to discuss issues that crop up as a result

So

[acoustic condor]

exactly, but the sprint and bumpiness would have affected all 20 cars, so having such drastic points changes because of the 'random' selection just feels unacceptable as a fan.

[flat imp]

Ig

Again, this was something of an anomalous weekend

[acoustic condor]

sure, but as it stands it seems extremely likely that some significant subset of the other 16 cars 'got away with' the same plank issue, which lewis/charles fans at a minimum would understandably be upset by.

good on mclaren and rb for max and lando's cars passing the checks tho

[flat imp]

Sucks obviously for Leclerc and Hamilton, but it's unlikely to be super representative of a massive issue

[acoustic condor]

completely agreed, we just know there's going to be another anomalous weekend at some point (Austin 2024 if the bumpiness continues to be an issue, potentially), so as a fan I'd rather testing be complete instead of 'random' knowing how drastic the result can be.

Like, when Seb lost his P2 because he didn't have 1L of fuel left (IIRC that was the issue), it felt fair because AFAIK all 20 cars have that same test done. This feels less fair, that's all.

[flat imp]

Unfortunately just not feasible

And it is fair insofar that it could have happened to anyone

[acoustic condor]

but strictly speaking, clearly less fair than if it happened to everyone. It's virtually guaranteed at least 1 of the 16 other cars 'got away with' the plank issue.

[flat imp]

I don't know what else can be done though. Again, testing every car for every issue just isn't feasible

[acoustic condor]

I guess don't see why not - you can test every car in parallel (which I would certainly imagine is how they do the tests that happen to all 20). It's not like there's only one measuring device and it has to be used on one car at a time.

Admittedly, this is all just me not understanding it I guess, given the amount of money at stake (Lewis shot at WDC P2 greatly affected at a minimum), it just feels weird to have these checks as 'random' instead of included in the set of things they already test all 20 for. Maybe this weekend will get the FIA to reconsider looking to see what's possible for post-race testing across the board, or at least for points finishes. I'm quite sure I'm not the only person who would have liked to have seen this particular check happen to all 20 at least. Ok, I'll shut up now.

[flat imp]

I mean you’re not

Like literally everyone including Brundle pointed out that it’s very likely other cars also weren’t compliant if 2/4 of the checked cars weren’t

But this kind of occurrence is so damn rare that it’s not that significant on the whole

Yes it does suck for both Leclerc and Hamilton and also Merc and Ferrari, but that doesn’t mean that it’s the kind of issue that’s likely to recur and/or isn’t already being considered for future changes

But given the rules around what can and cannot be done after a race, they could not check the other cars

It’s all a bit late for that

Even more pragmatically Ferrari and Mercedes were not likely to protest the rulings and beg for other cars to be checked because that would open the possibility for their other car being checked and found non-compliant as well

[civic fern]

im more surprised the "random" checks just happened to be the exact cars that took pole and podium

what are the chances

[flat imp]

I’ll be honest I always thought it was podium + a random but now that you mention it lmao

[limpid token]

im like 99% sure they picked Lelerc and Hamilton based on suspicion and then decided it would be a shitshow if Verstappen wasnt

[frigid temple]

That's what a number of post-race analysis have mentioned yeah. Burning titanium also has a distinct smell which may or may not have been noted in the pitlane during pitstops

[rotund kelp]

Isn’t it routine that they check the pole and podium cars?

Also it’s been said that they have a number of ways to pinpoint this issue specifically such as noticing a driver bouncing more on onboards or even the car giving off a strong smell

[abstract pawn]

Generally the checks are completely randomized but they do not have to be if they suspect a car may be running illegally

In the case of plank wear - something like smell can raise suspicion, or if a team/driver has been close to the legal limit in the past and lead to a check

[limpid token]

at minimum, its random car from top 10, if there are suspicions, it can be more

[rotund kelp]

Oh I thought I’d read somewhere they always check those. Mb 🫡

[neat dagger]

Sort of a "dumb" question tbh.
So I have a racing wheel, and it has like 2.2nm of torque. So I was wondering, how much torque does a real F1 car have on the wheel?

Also, I've seen a video that let body builders try to handle a wheel with it's max strength, and saw they couldn't really handle it... Is it really possible F1 driver have more developed shoulders than them?

If this isn't the correct channel, I'm sorry in advance.

[formal estuary]

They have mechanically assisted steering IIRC so it's not hard at all to turn the wheel

[neat dagger]

Oh ok, makes sense. Thank you

[civic fern]

i wouldn't be surprised if they've got better necks

[silent rose]

they do
what kind of bodybuilder deadlifts with their neck lmao

[iron shale]

Why do they need so much cooling things

[limpid token]

Because in Mexico you are in over 2km of elevation, that means about 20% less air pressure and way less cooling

vast majority of the teams are running 'insane' cooling like that

[iron shale]

Yeah but I mean why so many cooling louvres

Here is the Ferrari in Mexico for example

Ferrari have 6 while Haas have 15

And Alpine have 25

[deft burrow]

god that alpine is so ugly.

fuckin mess of a sidepod

[tiny pecan]

Aquafresh car

[sweet tree]

Alpine is fire

[limpid token]

Those 6 arent the only ones they have, there is more, as well as alpine (with their overall concept) is better with having the few big ones split into several smaller ones

before each GP, they will simulate how much cooling is needed and then make the car with as many holes as needed, on circuits with less cooling needs, they will blank the holes

Mexico due to its high altitude is special, as there is 'insane' cooling needed, thats why majority of the teams do have specific mexico solution for them

Ferrari has more of them, but i couldnt find a better pic than this

[ancient scaffold]

ugly car

[iron shale]

True

[craggy moon]

Out of the engine cover

[grave copper]

reminds me of my toothpaste

[amber kraken]

I wonder how many drivers prefers doing the U Shaped approach into the corners and vice versa. I do know Danny Ric is one of the drivers that prefers the U Shape corner entry

Oh yeah. The screenshot's from this video from The Race

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm1NkIdNADY&ab_channel=THERACE

[frozen cradle]

Kmag prefers u shaped which is why he’s struggling rn. Hulk prefers v shaped

[stray wraith]

V shaped is faster

(Under most circumstances)

[civic fern]

Counterpoint - Hamilton

[drowsy rampart]

counterpoint to that is that hamilton’s more adaptable than kmag

https://tenor.com/view/thats-why-hes-the-goat-the-goat-bigfellerjake-skippe-space-i-think-gif-26908844

[mental hinge]

E

[craggy moon]

F

[craggy moon]

ferrari carbon fiber looks better than all other teams carbon fiber

[ember patrol]

hey guys, today i was scrolling through twitter and i sow this very interesting graph on track similarities and i wondered how do you thing it is done. my guess its they plotted the top speed along the average speed or something like that cause mexico city is at the top with monza, but in the other hand it doesnt make sense jeddah cause jeddah also has a high top speed

[craggy moon]

its labled a high seed track

its just saying it isnt similar to any of the other high speed tracks

thats a shitty graph

no axis so its really confusing

[ember patrol]

yeah thats why im asking what do you think the axis are

[craggy moon]

can you provide the full post?

[ember patrol]

yeah

https://twitter.com/Big_Data_Master/status/1719055669494526246

theres no info tho+

[craggy moon]

i think its just a thing that some guy did with no axis

[ember patrol]

wdym no axis, there has to be some criteria

[craggy moon]

just put them where he thinks they should go

[ember patrol]

nah thats impossible

[craggy moon]

one shall find order in chaos

[ember patrol]

fax

[flat imp]

"Big_Data_Master" my judgement is immense

[craggy moon]

that sounded hella smart wtf

[ember patrol]

yeah it did

[craggy moon]

i just made that shit up on the spot

damn

[ember patrol]

so what do you think the axis aer??

[flat imp]

Genuinely don't even know

[craggy moon]

no corners on y? the more the lower?

thor the oposite

no that would be on x

[flat imp]

What are the fucking orange dots

[ember patrol]

like on the y axis less corners??

[craggy moon]

legth of straights on y

[ember patrol]

thats what i thoguht but look at marina bay

[ember patrol]

no idea

[craggy moon]

short?

chaos

[ember patrol]

yeah

marina bay straight is not that long

[craggy moon]

this makes no sense

[flat imp]

Where tf is the dot for Silverstone

[craggy moon]

exactly

[ember patrol]

maybe ur right with amount of corners

[flat imp]

Man pulled this chart out of his ass that's what it is

[craggy moon]

lmao

thats what i said

worst graph ive ever seen

ohh its above jeddah and below speilburg

[ember patrol]

yeah thats silverstone

perhaps its not so obvious data

like full throtell percentage of the lap

i mean the graphg makes general sense

but the axis dont

[sweet tree]

some graph i'd make if i didnt know wtf i was doing

[craggy moon]

Avg radius of corner?

[flat imp]

Not putting your methodology in your graphs truly such piss poor practice

[ember patrol]

yeah lool

[ember patrol]

in what axis

[craggy moon]

Hi flue

???

No clue

[ember patrol]

tf is h iflue

[craggy moon]

That dosent make sense

I think he just eyeballed it

[ember patrol]

you can eyeball it but you need some kinda of criteria

like the more to the right the more something

[craggy moon]

Similarity

[ember patrol]

and what would make sense to you

average speed and top speed??

would thatb e a good criteria

[flat imp]

Not this being their pfp

[ember patrol]

LMAO AHDAHAH

[flat imp]

Piss poor data science if you can't even explain your methodology

THIS IS THEIR BANNER

The jokes write themselves atp

[ember patrol]

would top speed and average speed make sense?

[flat imp]

Maybe? But I'd want to know the scaling

[ember patrol]

well that doesnt rlly matter cause its relative

[flat imp]

I mean if it's a log scale it'll plot differently

It seems to be decreasing speed moving from left to right which is really unintuitive

[sharp sundial]

Did they delete their messages?

[flat imp]

Nah that’s from the twitter user who made the useless plot

[amber kraken]

Looked like Daniel out-tractioned (is that even a word) Checo on the last turn

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvBLZ-znvPw&ab_channel=FormulaAddict

[charred shadow]

Apparently Aston Martin are divided over which direction to take their 2024 car

[ancient scaffold]

given they dont know where theyre going with their current one, not surprised

[silent rose]

more accurately, stroll doesn't know where he's going

ok ^^ is a bit mean stroll got points in the last two races

[tepid plover]

How tf can something like this happen

[abstract pawn]

setup issues

[mortal goblet]

whats wrong abt it

the frontwing or

[mortal goblet]

oh

well

[coral glade]

it's too stiff

[modest solstice]

But hes turning left?

[coral glade]

gonna assume it has something to do with the banking

[modest solstice]

That was on t1 right?

On The entry yea?

[coral glade]

looks more like turn t11?

i didn't see that part live so idk

[modest solstice]

What turn was this ?

[tepid plover]

i think t11

[patent birch]

pretty sure logan would have a chance for a Q2 run if that didnt happen

[true pendant]

what does a white flag denote?

[jolly shore]

.sessions

[true pendant]

.sessions

[deft burrow]

slow car ahead

[ancient scaffold]

Surrender - Bottas waves one whenever someone tries to overtake him

[civic fern]

he pulls out the whole red carpet

[tepid plover]

bottas using james bond tactics with the leaking oil

[ancient scaffold]

No, it’s banned I think

FIA are right spoilsports

“Innovation? More like in-noyoudon’t”

[silent rose]

It was banned for 2022 iirc

[coral glade]

2021 unfortunately

wouldve been useful in the title fight

but fia decided to be clowns

[amber kraken]

What the hell is with that exhaust?

https://twitter.com/autosport/status/1720793534767259992

[crimson granite]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn0R7JPVWyw

[formal estuary]

Why do y'all reckon the haas still destroys it's tires? Shitty Ferrari suspension, bad setup engineers, or is it still the aero package?

[frozen cradle]

Probably all of it honestly

[ember patrol]

guys, i want to get a track similarity graph which plots average speed and top speed. for getting the data what would be the most accurate way, get average speed for pole lap verstappen and top speed from verstappen? or getting the highest average speed and highest top speed

[karmic spade]

Do we know exactly what AMR changed with the car for the great performance at Interlagos?

[limpid token]

after they use them, they dont need to declare them, so its just a guesswork based on images

[amber kraken]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FOE_yNkrr4&ab_channel=THERACE

[formal estuary]

Removed all the upgrades since like mid-season

[civic fern]

im not so sure

cuz if they went back to Canada spec then Perez should've been able to DRS right past Alonso no matter what he did

AMR's upgrade path has been trading their ability in the low speed corners to a better top speed and lower drag

i think with Brazil it's just like the W13 last year. track just suited the car super well

[stray wraith]

No mystery, shits just bad

[limpid token]

they just used some old and some new parts that worked

[formal estuary]

That's also down to setup

[charred shadow]

We're talking about Bahrain spec

Canada is where all went to shit remember?

[civic fern]

Not so sure tbh

Cuz remember Merc pulled out the sidepods in Monaco, and then got P2 P3 on pace in Spain?

Aston brought their upgrades to Canada one race later and Alonso ditched Hamilton on pace again

The only reason there was even a battle in Canada was because Hamilton got him at the start

[charred shadow]

Probably setup too

Because after that race performance fell

I pay attention

The car rn is a combination of Bahrain and some upgrades that did work

[abstract pawn]

The car Aston Martin ran in Brazil was a mix of the pre- and post-Canada car

But if you ask them they say that is something they have been doing all year to get understanding for 2024 developments

[charred shadow]

Well it worked

I think

[civic fern]

Ngl i cant remember the last time Aston came up with huge upgrades that actually worked

Apart from AMR22 to AMR23

So the talent is in there somewhere

Its just hit and miss with the results

[ancient scaffold]

They’ve got Dan fallows, but he’s only one guy, if he doesn’t have the people below him he needs, then his impact will be limited

[charred shadow]

But his influence can change the team

They have a big name from Mercedes @ancient scaffold

But i can't remember his name

[ancient scaffold]

ah ok

[chilly pasture]

https://youtu.be/pjnHdBSDm6A?feature=shared

[glacial patrol]

The Renault experience

[charred shadow]

Make that 8 podiums

No regrets

[iron shale]

Ferrari and Alpine cooling vents

[charred shadow]

Those images are probably pretty old because i think Ferrari got rid of some of their concept

[short ether]

That was in Mexico

[civic fern]

How much cooling do we need?

“Yes”

Alpeen is like 2 cutouts away from might as well doing this

[primal patrol]

gold covered engine block?

which part of the cat is that?

[ancient scaffold]

this is so blursed

[charred shadow]

🐈

[primal patrol]

catalytic converter?

wait shit

i realised the typo after more than half a day

right

[edgy anchor]

That right there's the two stages of the Intake plenum

The intake snorkel and the Intercooler

[short ether]

what are these??

is it generated due to aerodynamics of the car??

[frozen cradle]

Yes, they’re bits of spinning air called vortices which are generated at many points on the car, but most visible on the rear wing

[primal patrol]

mostly during humid weather

low pressure humid air, condenses more visibly

[edgy anchor]

Those Vortices are always there just yeah the Humidity makes them visible

[celest plaza]

combination of all most likely

also the kinematics

the way you setup your suspension kinematics decides a lot when it comes to tyre deg, always a tradeoff

the best teams manage it, the worse can’t

[amber kraken]

Wait, wait. Active Aero Front and Rear Wings are being considered on the 2026 cars. As well as Movable Beam Wing and Diffuser Edges.

To me, these sounds similar to the early 90s when Active Suspensions were present on the cars, most especially with Williams

[limpid token]

yes, because overall the PUs are gonna be weaker (same peak power, but lower sustained) and they want to keep the laptimes in the general area we have it now

the 'only' solution, with making the cars smaller at the same time, is active aero

[mortal goblet]

Just as a quick question and sorry if that doesn’t belong here, but isn’t it stupid to give Sainz a 10place-penalty for replacing a part he had to replace bc the FIA values money over safety?

I mean yeah he was over the limit but he literally had no choice, why dont they just „skip“ this penalty

[zenith pumice]

the answer is precedent I’m going to say, because if they allow it once they’ll open themselves up to other teams using it as an example of how it’s ok to skip the part limits due to track faults

[abstract pawn]

If they did not give Sainz a penalty this time then all of a sudden every team would be asking for a new free engine when the old one breaks through something that is "not their fault"

They applied the rules as they are written and acknowledged that if the rules allowed them to give exceptions then they would have in this case but they could not because the rules do not allow it

[frigid temple]

Also, at a fundamental level this isn't that different from damage inflicted by another party (driver/team) that you have no fault in, which is not that uncommon. I was actually surprised the stewards straight up said they would give dispensation if the regulations allowed it. Maybe that was a not-so-subtle hint to the FIA.

[rotund kelp]

I’ve seen people argue that it’s a very fair decision which honestly makes a lot of sense

[craggy moon]

It is 100% fair, but it’s weird he want given an exemption

It’s fair, but its not just

[rotund kelp]

I wouldn’t say it’s weird. Of course they were going to try it.

[zenith pumice]

the stewards acknowledge that it's exceptional circumstances, but be that as it may, rules need to be followed for the reason that they're rules, and to prevent exceptions from compromising the fairness of the sport

[amber kraken]

One of my favorite short lived innovations

[merry delta]

same here

it stabilized the cars over the bumps, likely actually making them safer

[ancient scaffold]

and then ferrari threw a tantrum when they couldn't do it as well

[drowsy rampart]

could someone explain exactly what characteristic of a car makes it hard on its tires like the haas or ferrari

is it a particular way downforce is distributed around the chassis, suspension, or something else?

[abstract pawn]

Likely suspension

[drowsy rampart]

and conversely what makes a car like the red bull so good on its tires

[abstract pawn]

It is not a coincidence that two teams who use the same rear suspension are as bad on managing the rear tyres

[drowsy rampart]

like I understand fundamentally it’s down to how much heat energy is put into the tires but the why for that is my question

[drowsy rampart]

hmmm

what specifically about the suspension do you think?

is it too stiff?

and is that why red bull is so good on their tires? they’ve spent a lot of time on their suspension iirc

[ancient scaffold]

i think that was mainly due to aerodynamic reasons

although im sure the way they treat tires was something they wouldve spent time on too

[drowsy rampart]

hmmm

but what specifically causes it

does anyone know

apart from just generally "suspension" or "aerodynamics"

[formal estuary]

Not enough air to cool the tires idk, they did say they fixed the carcass temps with the upgrade but the surface temps are still out of control.
It's probably just Ferrari suspension imo

Alfa romeo uses their own suspension and they don't have any problems

[edgy anchor]

One thing that's key to note from at least what I can guess is versions of suspension geometry can change the way the tyres move and align themselves into corners

When you raise suspension in a bump that affects the camber for example

One of the obvious differences is that Ferrari uses a Pushrod front/Pullrod rear whereas Red Bull are the opposite

Something interesting to note on an earlier comment is that Sauber Romeo use Pushrods on both axles

[flat imp]

Oh wait I didn’t know that

That is interesting

[edgy anchor]

One thing interesting to note too about Alfa is like Red Bull their rods fit between their wishbones on the front end

Whereas Ferrari's wishbone geometry is a bit more Traditional

[flat imp]

Nice way of putting it lol. Yeah.

[edgy anchor]

That means that the pushrod has a shorter length to get to the wheelhub which means loads in the tyre will affect the load through that rod more due to it having to travel a greater distance for the same angle with a shorter length

These'll all have influence on how hard the tyres are loaded is how much you can transfer that tyre load to the suspension and vice versa

The only assumption I can make about Ferrari is that they're softening up the front to accomodate for this structure difference which is giving the front more bite

Which in braking zones for example will pull up on the rears more

The rears will wanna skate a bit more coz they're stiffer

[flat imp]

That’d make sense with stuff they’ve said about a desired handling characteristic for the car

[edgy anchor]

Combine that with the underbody dominance which puts the centre of pressure further back in the car with more weight too

You have alot of aero load on the rear with a compromised suspension setup at the front which they're compromising the rears to cater to

I'm talking like its' gospel, which I don't know of course

There are some buds on another server I'd love to weigh in on this but

[flat imp]

Yeahhhh I just don’t bother with very recent cars, people are much less willing to go into detail with the stuff I’m curious about. Understandable for competitive reasons but a shame.

[edgy anchor]

It's unfortunate, you kinda just have to assume/know and work from technically minded images

[drowsy rampart]

wow

so best of both worlds?

or is there a compromise there

i mean clearly the car as a package is not working

but thanks for that info very interesting

[edgy anchor]

Well no, they can use either on both axles but peeps are tryna find the best ones for each

[drowsy rampart]

hmm

[edgy anchor]

The unfortunate in some ways, fortunate in others thing is that all of these cannot be perfect so there's compromise either way

[true pendant]

whats the advantage of negative camber on the rear wheels?

[violet lily]

Similar to the fronts, better for warming up, offers better grip through corners

[true pendant]

it warms on the inside shoulders more no?

[violet lily]

not sure abt that tbh
but I think ARBs play a huge role in that

like which tire is loaded through corners

oh hang on

I got your question wrong 💀

I think it would yes, considering how the inside shoulder is in contact with the ground more

[true pendant]

yes

that was what i meant

so i guess negative camber will be good for a track like hungary and monaco

[iron shale]

AlphaTauri flow viz in Abu Dhabi

[violet lily]

smooooooth

[tulip depot]

Battle for P4, some scenarios. DM me if you'd like to add more scenarios of your own.

[civic fern]

None of them happened

[formal estuary]

Bruh go outside /s

[fair heath]

2022 vs 2023 RB rear suspension geometry

[sharp sundial]

How does this affect the suspension dynamics? Is it a purely aero thing?

[fair heath]

Red bull have a more pointy car right?

Its probably better dealing with loads that red bull produce

Ngl im interested to see if ferrari will stick with their huge sidepods

[tulip depot]

this is a F1 discord...

[tulip depot]

It did, had generated 15+ scenario, alongside an up to date current grid

[tawny plank]

Hi!
I have been wondering why the front wings of f1 cars nowadays are “multi-layered” instead of being one piece. Could someone explain the physics behind that please?

[true pendant]

Why are teams doing post season testing?!!

[sharp sundial]

This might be one for @tall wyvern. The popular explanation is that it allows you to push higher angles of attack without it stalling (the point at which things like aerofoils stop working) by reattaching a boundary layer onto each wing element, but apparently that’s a common myth?

Also I’d love to see what the winglet cutout does, even if it’s just a theory

[lost jungle]

that cut out is now banned

sort of

It helped with producing that out wash effect I think

[lost jungle]

by now, I mean since 2022

[sharp sundial]

Mainly because they're already there so its cheaper

[true pendant]

but the car is going into the museum so whats the point

[abstract pawn]

To test

Teams never get enough testing if you ask them

So they will take every opportunity

[fair heath]

i wonder how much faster the 2024 will be compared to now

[abstract pawn]

Fascinating technical analysis

[sharp sundial]

To add to slendis’s point, if the regs haven’t changed majorly there’s still a lot you can glean from on track time even if the car is, technically speaking, outdated

[flat imp]

Also like. You wanna make sure you have a good grasp of the areas in which your car needs improvement and why what worked worked

[tall wyvern]

These are called multi element wings, versus a single element wing.

A10 is right in that they can prevent stall, but physics wise it is for five reasons. A fresh boundary layer is one of the five though.

1. Fresh boundary layer (lol). The longer the boundary layer the more likely it is to separate, so starting a fresh boundary layer on multiple elements is more resistant than one long one.
2. Off-surface pressure recovery. Because the boundary layer detaches, it does a big chunk of pressure recovery not on a wall, which is easier because the shear stress is less.
3. Slat effect. An element smooths the pressure peak of the next element by turning the flow round the leading edge, which makes it easier to recover the pressure without stalling.
4. Circulation effect. An element adds some cross flow on the trailing edge of the preceding element, which increases the circulation and therefore the lift.
5. Increased ‘dumping’ velocity. An element provides a higher speed to the freestream behind the preceding element, which means that element has to recover less pressure and produces proportionally more lift.

[tall wyvern]

The winglet cutout is for powering up a wingtip vortex

[sharp sundial]

Thanks

[oak linden]

How is delta time between two cars calculated?

Are there many ways of doing so?

[bitter trellis]

I think there are timing stations around the track and the delta time is just how long between the cars passing it

[limpid token]

there is way more than that, you have the minisectors (usually 4-5) for each sector

[sharp sundial]

Isn’t it a fixed number of 24 regardless of track size?

[amber kraken]

Lewis almost always does this during his race starts. Is his way of holding his left hand on the wheel during race starts has to with the clutch or something?

[flint wraith]

He holds his left hand in that position till the first corner so as to prevent downshifting by mistake
Using that grip allows him to only upshift all the way there

https://x.com/ScarbsTech/status/1572521602927194114?s=20

[frozen cradle]

If I’m correct he also does that to stabilize the steering wheel and prevent any slight turning

[sharp sundial]

#f1-hq-photos-and-videos message what was the idea behind the flat top to the airbox?

While we’re at it, why was red bulls so round?

[grave fiber]

Current f1 cars are ground effect right?

[tall wyvern]

F1 cars have always been in ground effect

[bitter trellis]

Im pretty sure by "ground effect" they mean using under-floor systems to create downforce without the drag made by wings. In this case, no ground effect has not always been legal. It was made legal in 2022, but I'm pretty sure it was illegal in-between then and the 90's (or before I'm not sure)

[formal estuary]

They still had alot of ground effect downforce even with the ban on skirts and switch to flat underbodies.

[mortal goblet]

Im sorry to bring this topic up again but what would’ve happened if lewis and max both crashed out of abu dhabi 21 by driving errors, so without other drivers involved

this came to my mind recently

[flat imp]

Max would win on countback

[mortal goblet]

what does that mean?

[flat imp]

He won more races than Hamilton and so would've won if they'd remained tied at the same amount of points

This is also what would happen if the race were to be invalidated entirely

[sharp sundial]

Yeah, that’s what the inner portions of the old wings were doing, generating vortexes to seal the floor (bargeboards help with this in some way). It’s also why rake philosophy (the angle at which the car floor sits to the ground) was so important. To oversimplify it, low rake was more efficient but high rake got you more downforce.

[civic fern]

Specifically, Max would have 9 wins to 8 - the farce at Spa counted as a race win

[tall wyvern]

The vortex from the inner portion of the wing was mainly to influence lower wheel wake. Bargeboards created a downwash which increases the incidence of the floor edges.

[flat imp]

Spa was so fucking funny 😆 Hilariously a weird rule nuance about red flags in a wet race that was drastically shortened also got him his title in Suzuka in 2022

[limpid token]

Japan 2022 was funny, full points because of a mistake in the rules

[flat imp]

Absolutely peak tbh

[limpid token]

in theory, it could be just 3 laps long and still full points under those rules

[flat imp]

I would have to laugh

[ancient scaffold]

i really like how sculpted the rb sidepods are

[turbid flint]

the floor development aswell is crazy

[iron shale]

their car is miles ahead of everyone else

we will have redbull dominance until 2025

[ancient scaffold]

It is looking that way to some extent, but I wouldn’t count your chickens before they’ve hatched

[ancient scaffold]

Yeah, ‘22 floor looks kinda rudimentary

[limpid token]

Its kinda scary that most of the teams are using neither of the flat top or the 'muscle' dent at the top edge

or even moved away from it

so its either RB being wrong with it or other teams being blind to what RB sees

[ancient scaffold]

mclaren did and improved, so it cant be a silver bullet

just a small part of the whole concept

i guess it all works in tandem, you can tpick and choose which elements to lift

[tall wyvern]

I guarantee you every team has tried with and without a gulley, and every team is using whatever the tools said was best

[limpid token]

apart from Rari and Merc that got locked into a compromise due to their monocoque/SIS design

[tall wyvern]

Them too

[fair bloom]

how would you guys rank the w10 to the w14?

[limpid token]

W11, W10, W12, W14, W13

but i have to admit if it was by the looks, W13 would be 1st

[sweet tree]

better

[sweet tree]

you're real

[sweet tree]

you forgot the w12

[limpid token]

i've corrected that mistake

[sweet tree]

true

[civic fern]

W11, W10, W12, W13, W14

[sweet tree]

wait yea

the W13 won

damn russell has a forgettable win

[flat imp]

I say this with love to Jorj but his win was one of the least interesting parts of that weekend

[civic fern]

Well more like with W13 you could see the car getting better and better over the season, and it was podium competitive in the 2nd half especially with Ferrari’s falloff

W14 was a hopeless shitbox

There was a brief period between Monaco and Austria when it was in that stage but then McLaren overtook it from behind and Ferrari caught up by Spa

[uneven mantle]

<@&265886100227096576>

thanks

[drowsy rampart]

This is kind of a random thing to bring up but I was just thinking about juggernauts of sports that we could never ever see not existing, and I thought if you asked anyone to make a list ranking each team by how likely they are to disappear from F1, Ferrari would probably be at the very bottom of almost everyone's list. So is there even a circumstance where Ferrari would leave F1, either voluntarily (that is, not due to financial reasons), or going bankrupt from a very long run of no success and severe reputational damage? Would it even be possible for Ferrari to go so long without success/ruin its reputation so badly that it would be forced into leaving? I think it's fair to say Ferrari is F1, even if it might not seem like it at the moment with their current situation, so what impact would Ferrari leaving the sport have on F1 given its immense history, fanbase, and literal preferential treatment by F1 over other teams? Obviously this is never going to happen while any of us are alive unless F1 as a whole ceases to exist, but it's an interesting thought experiment

[flat imp]

There's any number of reasons why teams leave sport, yes Ferrari is probably the least likely, they have a massive brand incentive to stay in and a ton of money, but any number of things could come between them and staying in F1

If the money runs out they're fucked, which is entirely possible given time, plenty of brands have that happen

[silent rose]

I think if Ferrari leaves F1, the repercussions would be huge.

• No tifosi (all of the Italian and Sanmarino GP money gone)
• Haas and Sauber have no one for engines
• Ferrari is the face of F1. No ferrari, no sport.

[tiny pecan]

💀

[rocky timber]

and thats why ferrari wont leave f1

[sweet tree]

😱

[deft burrow]

I think the sport is more than big enough to survive without Ferrari, besides which, if they leave, some other massive manufacturer will just take their place.

[civic fern]

Ferrari and F1 both need each other

You’re literally only arguing whether its a 40/60 relationship or a 60/40 relationship

Mostly likely something in between, and usually its fluid

[frigid temple]

Excellent technical analysis

[silver ocean]

Agreed besides Ferrari being the 'face' of F1, that's incredibly disrespectful to the other teams

[frigid temple]

In the same way a clown is the face of a circus so...true I guess?

[rotund kelp]

But it kinda is, though

That’s the one team everyone knows, you say F1, people think Ferrari

[silver ocean]

Historically yes, I'd say more recently it's Mercedes

[rotund kelp]

Lmfao no

It’s Ferrari and it’ll always be Ferrari

Mercedes came back barely 10 years ago, they’re in no way a staple of the sport

[flat imp]

I think if just completely out of the blue Ferrari decided fuck F1 and left F1 would survive. I do think though that if there were circumstances that made Ferrari want to leave F1... yeah then F1 is definitely in trouble

[limpid token]

the circumstance is them fucking up the engine twice back to back, McHonda style

and even with good aero being stuck in the midfield for 8+ years

[flat imp]

Ferrari? Doubt that'd push em out lmao

[rotund kelp]

Definitely not.

Circumstances aside ofc F1 would survive if Ferrari decided to leave just because, but it would be a huge historical event for the sport

Mercedes leaving again, even in 10 years time it would just be huge for them

[chilly pasture]

F2 ahhh sound

[primal patrol]

what's this?

LMH?

[short ether]

Lmp2 maybe

[mortal goblet]

aston marting lmdh

[edgy anchor]

The new Alpine A424ß

Sounds gorgeous mush

Idk why it's in this channel tho

[radiant elm]

Stupid question but I can’t find a straight answer online

Why do tyres lose grip when overheated

[dry geode]

it's because hot tires get slippery, which makes the tyres not being able to grip on the road well

hope that answers your question

[tall wyvern]

the actual, technical answer is that the tyre rubber becomes less visco-elastic and more elastic, which is to say that the tyre fills the gaps in the tarmac more quickly and easily. this means the hysteresis in the rubber is lower, which means the grip is lower.

[radiant elm]

Ok I’m gonna need to search up a few worlds there but thanks it’s very complete answer or atleast looks so

[radiant elm]

Like I mean who has ever heard of rubber smh

[tall wyvern]

when the tyre moves along the ground, it bends and fills the gaps in the tarmac, like this:

when the rubber is displaced (moved/bent) by the tarmac, it doesn't immediately return to its original position, but with a delay. elastic means it returns to its position when the force is removed, visco elastic means it moves to its original position after a delay. the delay in moving back to the original position is hysteresis, and this is when the tyre produces grip.

too low temperature, and the rubber becomes glassy (hence Tg, glass transition temperature). too high temperature, and the rubber becomes too soft and flows into the gaps too easily, which reduces the hysteresis and therefore grip.

so peak grip is the top of the energy loss curve

[azure wind]

is that youngs modulus ?

[tall wyvern]

Just elastic modulus generally, which includes Young’s modulus

[amber kraken]

Not surprising

https://twitter.com/FDataAnalysis/status/1738921719862083738

[limpid token]

i wonder how much off is that number with RB running heavy during (probably whole) 2022

[fair heath]

RB failed frontal crash test?

[upper ivy]

as they did last year

just like Mercedes

it's not really anything to worry about for them

[frigid temple]

It's not anything worth noting. Teams push the limits and then adjust.

[zinc bison]

do the V6 powertrains have pneumatic valves or are they back to springs and cams cause the RPM is relatively low compared to the v10's?

[sharp sundial]

They use pneumatic springs still

[edgy anchor]

They use Pneumatics as for this application they're cheaper and just... Better

[stiff charm]

How much does the VSC slow down the Race? Ive seen sources saying 30% but then others saying 70%

[scarlet granite]

https://youtu.be/hIChDKkc0sw?si=X9rIQQlT9nwMW-yV

[upper ivy]

hm

i feel like those are very selectively chosen examples, especially the tyre failures from Silverstone which were not caused by direct car-to-car or car-to-wall contact

I can think of several cases with the 13 inch tyres as well where the tyre popped off the rim after a crash. Just off the top of my head...

-Spa 2012, Grosjean (at least I think it was one of his lol)
-Brazil 2013, Bottas
-Australia 2014, Bottas
-Silverstone 2014, Kimi
-Brazil 2019, LeClerc (yes, the tyre technically stayed on the rim, but just barely hanging on by the edge...)
-Silverstone 2021, Verstappen

I'm sure I missed several others.

Obviously I don't have exact statistics and if there is something that can be done to prevent tyres from flying off, I'm all for it!

But I just don't agree with that claim that this is a new problem, or that it's specifically because of the 18 inch tyres.

[abstract pawn]

The tyre falling off the rim has definitely been a more common feature since the introduction of the 18" than before

It did happen in the past too but usually then it was because of different reasons to now

With the old rims the tyre would only really ever fall off if the rim itself was bent or broken but even then the tyre would stay on the rim most of the time

Now the outer part of the rim literally breaks off causing the tyre to slip off the rim

[upper ivy]

It would certainly be interesting to see if it actually is more common, or if just the type of accident where it occurs (no matter which tyre) has randomly happened more often these past 2 seasons

[upper ivy]

that is an interesting point

overall my impression is that the tyre popping off the rim just depends on the type of accident and whether or not the rim is damaged enough. No matter the size

[deft burrow]

Well it seems like every single mid level impact picks the tyres off the rim

[amber kraken]

The tyre wear comparison of the F1 75 and the RB18

[limpid token]

Its Leclerc vs Verstappen after 2022 Japanese GP

Max was 20s up the road in ~25 laps

[wheat kraken]

the front wing difference in close photos really shows

[sharp sundial]

He was managing too iirc. Just sat 20s ahead looking pretty. Crazy stuff

[sharp sundial]

My personal favourite is that the late gen rb18 sidepods and rb19 sidepods were completely different

[limpid token]

on this topic, i am still wondering whats up with the waterslide vs nothing (like Alfa) vs 'muscle' on the sidepods

AM, Alpine and McL are seeing something with waterslides while RB has basically the same general idea of a sidepod since Bahrain test in 22
McL even removed the muscle in 23

[craggy moon]

wdym by the 'muscle'

[craggy moon]

makes sense

i wonder why they got rid of it?

[limpid token]

Bahrain

Silverstone

[sharp sundial]

Is that rake I see?

Or just tricky camera angles?

[limpid token]

its the shadows

[tall wyvern]

The most downforce is with the rear as low as possible, ie without rake

[limpid token]

thats whats interesting about the technical stuff, RB clearly sees the benefit, while other teams didnt or in a case of McLaren went back on it after implementing it

[prime mortar]

if i remember the 2022 bahrain red bull side pods looked so good because of the narrowness, maybe just me

[sharp sundial]

Oh yeah the early 2022 cars looked like f2 cars

[prime mortar]

especially the aston martin, that side pod was bad

[sweet tree]

fr that sidepod was not it

glad they changed it mid season

[flint wraith]

Wasn't it at some point slower than an f2 car down the straights? (Read it from a source so take it with a pinch of salt)

[vale verge]

what is the surface area of Fron Wings and Rear Wings of an F1 car in 2023?

[sharp sundial]

It depends?

[vale verge]

like what is the Volume

[tall wyvern]

Well in plan view the regulation box for the front is about 2m x 0.5m and the rear is 1.8m x 0.5m so just assume they’re using maximum volume

[dark snow]

Mercedes’ catastrophic zero pods ftw

[prime mortar]

might be unpopular but the W13 looked very good

[unreal pivot]

it looked nice but it never looked fast even before we saw its pace

[dark snow]

^

Side pods looked like literal aluminum foil just slapped on it

[prime mortar]

right, it didnt look great performance wise. but i still think it looks good

[tall wyvern]

What does fast look like?

[flat imp]

~Sleek~ and/or very angular usually lmao

[tall wyvern]

Based off what?

[flat imp]

Vibes

I'm sort of not joking though generally people associate angularity and those more 'aggressive' profiles with speed

[tall wyvern]

Why does that make a car faster?

[sweet tree]

real

underrated looking car

[flat imp]

It doesn't. But it's an aesthetic sensibility people often don't realize they have.

[modest solstice]

@tall wyvern why is hot air better for aero

[sharp sundial]

Huh, thought it would be cold air

[civic fern]

its less dense so you get less drag

and that's about it

but that doesn't equal a faster car

[modest solstice]

that means it wont stall as easily?

[civic fern]

you also get less downforce, and your engine is less effective. i've never heard of an F1 car ever being faster in the heat over the cold

[modest solstice]

i mean... like why did redbull use the exhaust flow, and doing the same thing today with the radiators

by tunneling hot air to the rear

[civic fern]

oh i thought you meant environmental temps

[modest solstice]

nah

[civic fern]

https://www.formula1-dictionary.net/diffuser_blown.html

this is a pretty comprehensive explanation on it

[modest solstice]

oh so the air stall less easily and by that they can make a steeper diffuser?

generating more downforce without drag

[edgy anchor]

That's not the same thing as using hot air. The benefit of the exhaust is at such high velocity that stream will be low pressure due to high speed. The exhaust blown diffusers historically were just used by shoving them in the diffuser itself so the raw energy of the air helped downforce beneath as you're using that spare airflow without disturbing other surfaces on the car. This later led to the Periscope exhaust Ferrari started using which placed exhausts in a position to blow the under surface of the rear wing.

As for Red Bull, The exhaust was shot out along a strake which induced a Vortex to on the sideskirts of the diffuser. This sealed off the floor via an air skirt and also allowed separation from the tyre squirt into said diffuser

[edgy anchor]

By sealing off aero components you can be more aggressive with them, and this also led to the insane downshift sounds F1 had in 2011 as they were running essentially full throttle all the time, but just verying fuel mixture and spark to constantly chuck exhaust into the diffuser sides

[ocean plume]

Ok I haven’t been too involved in the off season stuff but I’ve heard the rumours of 1. Red bull have completely changed their car and have been developing it since very early last year. 2. Merc apparently have been cooking and come up with an insane car.

Is there any truth to either of these?

[warped moon]

It’s been in the air that RB stopped improving last year car around the summer break to focus on this year car because they had already too much difference with the rest and they were comfy with that gap. Pilots and principals from other teams have said so also a couple of times.

[prime mortar]

merc will either be two things this year, terrible, or fighting for wins consistantly. nothing in between

[sharp sundial]

It doesn't help that peoples standards of merc end up that they're terrible if they aren't fighting for wins

[craggy moon]

where the front wing meets the endplate, is there a minimum radius for the curve?

[tall wyvern]

Yes

[prime mortar]

yes but i mean like almost alpine level performance. sometimes getting good points and a podium. but lots of times just getting one or two points.

maybe a little extreme but i think it could be possible

[prime mortar]

anyone know why xavi is still a race engineer? He is abysmal at his job. He gives no confidence to charles and half the time its charles who brings up an issue

like 2019 monaco, charles literally says we have a puncture before xavi says anything. keep in mind xavi can see and is told the type pressures so its not like he wouldnt know.

[flat imp]

Could be a lot of things that really aren’t technical and some things that are

[prime mortar]

could he be the first pay engineer

[flat imp]

First of all— race engineers do stuff that isn’t purely during the race, Xavi could be great at some aspects of the job that aren’t visible

(Maybe)

[prime mortar]

we will never know until charles book (which comes after hamiltons book)

[flat imp]

Isn’t there already a biography on him out

[prime mortar]

ofc, thats why i said race engineer. i am sure he is very valuable to ferrari for other stuff. just get charles a competent race engineer. could give him at least 50 points a year just bc of better communication.

[flat imp]

I mean the communication aspect could also just be down to more than just Xavi

It’s not like Sainz hasn’t gotten some damn confusing messages on radio also

It could be (and imo probably is) more of a problem with their whole operations on race day and on the pit wall

[prime mortar]

this

[flat imp]

And that’s trickier to solve than just firing someone

[prime mortar]

the whole race day setup for ferrari always seems to be flawed

it just seems xavi cant communicate good info

maybe it comes down to it seems like he doesnt have great english

[abstract pawn]

If Charles had any problems with Xavi being his race engineer he would not get any resistance in asking Ferrari to change him

[flat imp]

Leclerc’s defended Xavi to the press more than once to my memory at least

[civic fern]

Hes too nice of a guy to sack Xavi

[prime mortar]

idk maybe him and xavi are still figuring things out together

but i mean everytime i hear a team radio its bad

[flat imp]

And I am entertained so long may they reign!

[ancient scaffold]

you make it would like theyre in a relationship