f1-technical

[graceful sun]

Looks better than coloured runoff

[final dust]

le castellet: "Am i a joke to you?"

[nimble marten]

track limits: "Ah shit, here we go again"

[upper ivy]

Yeah "fake gravel" is a bit of a misleading term

[short ether]

i was gonna say, thats just coated with gravel glue

[sinful crypt]

How long does it take to fix a gearbox?

[graceful sun]

Few hours so max should take part in fp2

[floral bramble]

What happened to this first 2021 concept?

It looks quite bad but I don't think there was ground effect

It was introduced during the 2019 Singapore gp

I think

Nvm 2018

[signal lava]

tbh

its looks like poop

the 2nd one which they introduced was a lot better

simply

simplier FW, RW, sidepods compared to that

[signal lava]

(compared to this)

[floral bramble]

Yeah the first one looked very complicated and prob more vortex n shit

2nd version looks almost like the complete opposite

[graceful sun]

It was just potential designs that meant nothing other than just to generate some hype

[peak wind]

why are the red bulls so quiet compared to the over cars?

[dense orbit]

Sometimes you can see a electronic device with the driver names with leds for each of them, what is that used for? Its something behind the scenes. I can't find an online pic of it..

[primal patrol]

are you talking about the pit wall

[latent shoal]

Can teams replace say the rear tyres and keep the old front ones if they are the same compound. Idk why a team would do this, maybe it suits the driver more but are they allowed to

Like maybe the driver thinks the fromts and fine and prefers the understeer or something idfk

[brave field]

No

[final dust]

No, the tyres are not just front and back, its a set. When you hear that they come in for a new set of tyres they change all of the wheels. In 2020 in bahrain there was an interesting moment, where mercedes with russel and bottas messed up the sets, so they needed to come in the next lap too to switch them back.

[latent shoal]

Yeah I onow im not stupid but theoretically if the tyres are the same compound like soft/soft would they be able to change it from like ORR/ORL/OFR/OFL to like NRR/NRL/OFL/OFR if they are the same tyre compound (soft to soft, medium to medium, hard to hard)

Like I get its a set of tyre

But like theoretically

Say they forget the front tyres

So they only replace the rears

Is that allowed

[final dust]

No, it isnt, they need to come in again to not receive a penalty from the FIA

And i didnt called you stupid

[timber helm]

they do it on the super bikes but it would be interesting to see how something like that would work in f1, altough i dont think it would

[obtuse hollow]

what does a TD do

[gilded wave]

can someone explain what beam wings do?

[brave field]

the fake one is glued to the ground the real one not

[brave field]

it changes how the car should be run

[full drift]

How are the cars restarted after they are off on track, like Tsunoda did?

[gilded wave]

i dont think yuki switched off the car

im not sure tho

[edgy anchor]

Beam Wings work two fold in the case of F1 cars here. They first extend and add an element to the Diffuser exit, increasing underfloor downforce, and secondly increases the efficiency of the main rear wing elements above it

[full drift]

I think he did, then they told him to restart the car

[short ether]

does the q2 fastest lap tire compound rule still exist

[gilded wave]

not anymore

[paper wing]

Congrats @gilded wave, you're now on lap 5

[gilded wave]

2022 and onwards, you can start the race on any tire regardless of what you set your q2 time on

[frozen cradle]

Doing a rescearch project, does anyone know where to find CAD files for the 10 original sidepod designs? The regulation mention teams publishing open source materials and I’m wondering if they’re part of that

[rich gust]

Why dont F1 cars use this sort of suspension

A hydropneumatic suspension

[merry delta]

likely regulations

[brave field]

With the hybrid system this year every car should be abled to restart

[edgy anchor]

T'was banned

The F1 solution was ElectroHydraulic

As Pneumatics can't react quite the same way

[tall wyvern]

Where did you see this?

[gaunt ridge]

Why F1 cars doesn't have ABS brakes...?

[fair pilot]

Without abs you have more braking power therefore being able to brake later

Making lap times quicker

I also think it makes the sport rely more on skill

than machine

someone let me know if im wrong

[fading egret]

U dont

[upper ivy]

those open source materials are on FIA servers for F1 teams for use

not for the general public

[frozen cradle]

Ah, ok. Thanks

[gilded wave]

what does it mean when people say "the williams is slippery on a straight"?

[graceful sun]

It simply produces less downforce than other cars so has less drag

[tall wyvern]

Not necessarily, otherwise the red bull wouldn’t be ‘slippery’

[deft burrow]

It's different for each car, but in this context, Williams have the least amount of downforce, and also don't have much drag, so they are zooom on the straights

[gilded wave]

aight thx

[tall wyvern]

The only thing you can know is low drag, that’s it

[halcyon geyser]

[candid sentinel]

Guys can someone explain how does lock up work?

[frank moth]

when you apply too much force on the brakes

the disc stops or rotates slower than the speed of the car

so instead of spinning the tyres slide along the ground

[tall wyvern]

When the brakes apply more force to the wheels than the tyres apply to the road

[fair pilot]

Loss of grip can result in a lock up because bascially less friction

or when you turn and brake at the same time, the inside tire will lock up because it has less load than the outside tire

[short ether]

Hey guys! Can someone please briefly explain this flowchart?

Or just let me know what CU means?

[tall wyvern]

MGU-K control board, you seriously couldn’t go to 5.2.2 yourself?

[sleek field]

💀

[graceful sun]

Dnf like 5 races

[weary thicket]

It’s the hybrid system of the engine

[tall wyvern]

It’s both

It’s literally the whole engine

[proven relic]

Can you drop the link?

[tall wyvern]

Just Google f1 regulations and open the 2026 PU technical regs

[stark ember]

Damn AM really got wings for both extreme levels of downforce

Also, why are we seeing teams cut out a piece of the rear wing this season, first done by Haas I think?
Was it just a small innovation thought up this year or did some rule change this year allow stuff like that

[graceful sun]

Easiest and cheapest way to reduce the downforce produced

[stark ember]

Yeah but was something like that not allowed before or did they only just think of it this year

[crude shoal]

It's hella crazy to see how pointed down the wing is compared to what they use at Monza

[daring ridge]

During the start of the 2010s, adrian newey found a genius way to place his exhaust at the edge of the sidepods such that the exhaust fumes are directly blown towards the rear diffuser, redbull designed special throttle maps and engine clamps with the help of renault promoting flow of exhaust fumes; and although it resulted in low acceleration top speed compared to others the car was pretty hard on tyres and rear produced a tyre squish effect.

The exhaust positioning paired with double diffuser produced a lot of downforce from the rear to the point that the rear wing could be designed to produce really low drag and downforce as most of the performance was coming from the diffuser and not the wing at that point and the v shaped front allowed the drag reduction on the car to compensate for the underperforming renault engine

With the introduction of hybrid powertrains the exhaust is placed in between the two beam wings but it's positioning angle may vary depending on the concept of the chief director of the cars design thus resulting in a bit of df from the beam wings but not as much as ones from the older exhaust concept

The blown diffuser is now banned entirely

[daring ridge]

https://twitter.com/ScarbsTech/status/1568331582947360768?t=p6hyVoMrss2yo_wbDKGbsg&s=19

Craig Scarborough (@ScarbsTech)

Great news, @VanDiemenRacing are coming back, with a radical F3 concept the RFP1.
Headed by ex-F1 driver Ralph Firman jr and designed by @andythorby

Likes

570

Twitter · Sep 9, 2022, 8:12 PM

[upper ivy]

is that for hillclimb?

[primal patrol]

LMF1

[spiral gyro]

damn the thing looks sick

[astral plank]

F3?

[proud pumice]

It's explained in his book

They went for a coke bottle type design

[daring ridge]

i know it's fucking crazy

newey is an AI designed to create the best aero

[proud pumice]

Genius

[daring ridge]

the redbull runs so much higher and is still so much faster, crazy

[plush panther]

Adrian Newey slides underneath Max’s car and just pulls air underneath, then sneaks away on the last lap, that’s the only explanation for the gap

Lmfao it already was a discussion about newey

I didn’t even realize until I scrolled up

[short ether]

Control unit

[short ether]

Still dk how this works, isn’t lower always better?
(Without porpoising)

[rocky trout]

wat

this whole fuckin season

all ive heard

rb best car on straights

tf is this

[ruby charm]

Ferrari=Redbull After Monza for force points

[graceful sun]

Rb ran a lot more rear wing

[rocky trout]

ahh

interesting

assuming this is to save tires

[stark ember]

I wouldn't say a lot more but definitely more downforce than other teams are Monza

[tribal nacelle]

It looks like evryone is like running much higher wings than last year

Is that just cus the cars are wiser and bigger

[brave field]

I think with the cost cap they use one for Spa and Monza and just cut a bit of the wing out

[nimble marten]

also because there isn't much downforce being produced by the rear wing vs last year

[west pasture]

It was a lot more lol. The wing was massive compared to Ferrari, Mercedes, Ferrari, Mclaren etc.

[formal estuary]

You can use vortices to seal the floor and play tricks on the flow, meaning you don't have lower it as much.

[edgy anchor]

Floor edge sealing works like Skirts

[short ether]

Yeah, the bargeboard were good at this. But I still wonder why Red Bull in particular run it so high.
There is literally no benefit in running it that high.
They can run it lower and not porpoise.

[merry delta]

they likely have a good reason to that us simpletons simply do not know about because of our lack of data

[formal estuary]

Well one possible reason is they're manipulating the air from the floor/diffuser to stall the rear wing at high speed. Hence why they had great straight line speed despite having a huge wing compared to everyone else's non existent wing.

[tall wyvern]

Totally wrong, lower is more suction as a fact, ‘sealing’ the floor has nothing to do with it

And that’s also not what bargeboards were for primarily, they’re to inject high energy air into the low energy tyre wake

[west pasture]

bumps.

If your car is higher, you can attack the kerbs better.

We’ll soon be going to the USA again, and that track is very bump as we’ve seen last year. Cars that can run high yet still be very fast will have a good advantage there.

[jaunty surge]

does anyone have a breakdown of the RB18 dash

doubt it but

wanna know what all this stuff is

image isn’t mine trying to find out for a modder for AC

[short ether]

Can’t find the RB18 display but this is from the AT so I guess it’ll be similar

https://twitter.com/drivenbydata_/status/1532414392729477121?s=21&t=4qMx0IzPBRv8HzuLWJ8WvA

Driven By Data (@DrivenByData_)

AlphaTauri AT03 dash layout:

What Pierre Gasly sees during a race 👀

#DrivenByData #F1 #Formula1 #MonacoGP

Likes

1845

Retweets

154

Twitter · Jun 2, 2022, 5:30 PM

[graceful sun]

Had anyone got a picture of all of the monza rear wings?

[graceful sun]

Much appreciated

[civic fern]

aston 💀

copied red bull, expect great straight line speed, even tested a low drag wing at Spa, still nowhere at Monza

[short ether]

So much drag

[silent heron]

I don’t think red bull ran that wing in the end. I think they just ran their normal one.

[short ether]

Correct

[gilded wave]

Yea perez ran that wing in fp1 and fp2, but then he had the issue with his drs flap oscillating, so they went with the normal wing

[daring ridge]

hmmm, not a very complex floor at mclaren

[edgy anchor]

Does it need to be?

[brave field]

You can if you want more downforce generated with the floor

[graceful sun]

No wonder the top speed is lacking

[tall wyvern]

If only they asked here before they designed the floor,

[coral glade]

Yeah fr we can design a championship winning car right 💀 💀

[graceful sun]

Facts

Newey who?

[west pasture]

Red Bull ran their Canada spec wing.

[gilded wave]

is there any reason this part of the car is made jagged?

[primal patrol]

guessing it's not anything too significant

vortex generators come to mind but idk why they'd be used like that

[gilded wave]

I was thinking it was to direct airflow above the halo and onto the body of the car, but then it shouldnt be jagged

[violet smelt]

iirc they are vortex generators to break up the air to create a low pressure zone in the cockpit, this is to minimize the amount of air going onto the driver's heads and pushing them down

[primal bluff]

[My assumption was that] they're vortex generators for when there's rain, to direct the droplets up and around their helmet, away from the cockpit

[primal bluff]

Yeah, if you zoom in close, you can see that they're only on while the cars have Wet/Intermediate tyres
#f1-hq-photos-and-videos : #f1-hq-photos-and-videos message
#f1-hq-photos-and-videos message

[formal estuary]

https://twitter.com/danielealofan/status/1569635235335217152?s=46&t=cPqIVINBSOfiJ2HjUhNzug

Vortexes bro

DANIELE (@DANIELEALOFAN)

Spiegazione del pavimento RB18 e del perché non soffre altezze da terra più elevate ( Vanya @f1technical ) 📸
Ripetuto varie volte,ma è necessario rileggere anche per capire la correlazione post TD039

Likes

236

Twitter · Sep 13, 2022, 10:32 AM

[tall wyvern]

Yes genius that’s a vortex inside the diffuser, not ‘sealing’ the floor

Sorry that was a bit harsh, point still stands though. A diffuser has a pair of counter rotating vortices, one from each sidewall. Vortices induce a low pressure and therefore suction on the surface to which they are attached. They are mostly fed from outside the floor. This is what this poster is referring to.

[primal patrol]

fancy squiggly lines

i dont think i belong in this chat

[somber saddle]

I'll understand these interesting funny wiggly blue and red traces soon

[tall wyvern]

The blue line is supposed to be the road, the red line is supposed to be the underfloor roof

[short ether]

hiii idk if this is the right channel to put this in

but i’m doing a school presentation,, and it’s about how mathematics has been used in F1

pretty broad,, but i need resources (books, research papers, even youtube videos and documentaries) but i’m struggling to find things on the topic 😔

if you could share any relevant resources that’d be really helpful for meee 🥰

[tall wyvern]

extremely broad, there's nothing in f1 that isn't maths

[merry delta]

^

I'd recommend focusing in on one part of F1 to get a higher chance of getting pertinent sources

[short ether]

Wind deflector

[short ether]

I'm pretty new to f1

Can someone explain what this does

[deft burrow]

that is flow vis

It helps the teams visualize what their aerodynamic flow is like

[deft burrow]

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.testing-explained-rob-smedley-on-flow-vis.7nU2VePGlVrhIGa8wgCoLE.html

[short ether]

Yes thank you

[short ether]

yeah i agree 😅 i want to move off from the strategy side (so like points and scoring system ) and focus on something more technical,, perhaps the usage of CFD

[merry delta]

well, if you want to explore that maths of CFD itself, you can look for equations or guiding principles that CFD uses

[short ether]

Who is girl??

[stark adder]

https://twitter.com/ScarbsTech/status/1569353595601960961

Craig Scarborough (@ScarbsTech)

From the days when floors were simpler and the plank was still made of wood.
#F1 #TechTalk
Pics taken at @WilliamsRacing conference centre.

Likes

623

Twitter · Sep 12, 2022, 3:53 PM

interesting

[final dust]

https://tenor.com/view/floor-zoom-nothing-wood-gif-17593875

[short ether]

ty!!! :))

[tall wyvern]

If it’s for school, I wouldn’t do that…

[short ether]

why not?

[tall wyvern]

Because it’s way too complex

Maybe you could do something about downforce more generally

https://ocw.snu.ac.kr/sites/default/files/NOTE/7439.pdf

This is the base equations

[final dust]

Talk about the fuel calculations, how the cars weight affects the performance, how the drivers need to stay in shape and how they calculate how much fuel do each driver need based on these conditions

[amber kraken]

Not sure if people had forgotten this but the Ferrari SF7H had a powerful PU. The SF71H was a hell of a lot quicker than the Ferrari SF70H, especially at Belgium where it breezed past the Mercedes with ease. I'm wondering if the SF71H's PU was essentially the precursor to the SF90's insane "Warp Speed" engine

[ripe ibex]

yea ferrari found a loophole in the fuel flow sensor

rather cheated in it

[short ether]

Is it a myth that f1 pistons seize below their operating temp?

When the starter motor delivers its RPM to the flywheel, how fast does the oil system travel?

[cinder lily]

yeah i think its at below 80 or so celcius

the oil and stuff need to be at a certain temperature to work which is why you see them warming the engine up before turning it on

during a race the engines run at around 2500 celcius

so if a driver spins or is stationary for too long the temperatures can plummet and cause the pistons to seize

it doesnt happen too often though

[cinder lily]

idk about that but i do know the cars are limited to 0.6 liters per 100km or something around there in terms of oil consumption

[tall wyvern]

they don't 'run at 2500 celsius', the gas ignition temperature is around there, but the actual engines are absolute nowhere near

[edgy anchor]

Water tends to be 90

Oil 110

Tolerances are too tight on things like Piston Rings and bearing surfaces that they cannot move, like how Pistons iirc are Inserted after being dipped in Liquid Nitrogen

[short ether]

They’re not actually seized seized btw, it’s just that the tolerances are so tight that running them on low rpm without the correct oil temp causes bore scoring and stuff.

For a piston to be seized, the pistons would have to be oversized and a different molecular construction where it expands less than the cylinder block under high temp, which isn’t the case.

[edgy anchor]

... It's not?

brave to assume that isn't the case

[short ether]

It would be cool to see a vid of the pistons dipped in liquid nitrogen

[short ether]

this is so helpful tysm

[final dust]

you're welcome

[quick wind]

whens this due lol

Because if you need a list I can generate one

[short ether]

i have lots of time,, till like, february

[short ether]

OMG that’s so helpful 😭😭

[short ether]

Guys

Why is it gold?

There doesn’t seem to be any centreline cooling on top of the engine

[severe knoll]

i think that's for thermal purposes

idk what though

[gilded wave]

Yea even i thought that the shiny surface would keep thermal radiation from escaping

[tall wyvern]

It’s heat shielding gold foil

https://funkmotorsport.com/golden-reflection-benefits-reflective-gold-heat-tape/

Like this

[sage walrus]

at room temperature they are slightly larger than the bore of the block if i recall corectly

its one of the reasons why the oil and the block have to get warmed up before use

[west pasture]

heat shielding

[short ether]

Oh wow.

[short ether]

Ah, like the McLaren F1.

But how come teams don’t use it anymore?

[short ether]

Btw do F2 engines have to be heated up 30mins before? Similar to F1?

And do the engines have similar tolerance and ignition technology

[tall wyvern]

They use ceramic heat shielding now, rather than gold foil

[sage walrus]

Situations like that aren't that uncommon in engineering, but for a car it's very very rare and basically limited to race cars

[short ether]

What do they use to make it fit, whilst assembling the engine

Liquid nitrogen?

[sage walrus]

usually with interference fits you make the larger part hotter

the amount of interferance is very small the the point where hoenstly you could just warm the block up and have it shrink and cool without too much problem

[short ether]

Apparently the ‘seize’ and oversize thing is a myth. Of course there’s small tolerances and the metals expand, but not where the pistons are oversized.

There’d have to be a lower coefficient of thermal expansion for that.
Idrk.
I’d love to hear from an actual F1 engineer…

Forums are a land mine

[sage walrus]

maybe the piston head isnt larger than the bore in a normative sense

but in reality could still be the case due to manufacturing tolerances

so its just best to warm things up so things clear each other anyway

[edgy anchor]

As far as I was aware, the inner parts are bathed in liquid nitrogen for high up builds, as heating elements may heta treat them

[jagged horizon]

The whole engine being seized when cold thing is a myth. It causes wear if running when cold which is why they warm them up as in f1 longevity is key. HPacademy has spoken about this in their videos. Engine assembly wouldn't be viable as the crank needs to spin to assemble the pistons and conrods. I too thought it was true for years but unfortunately not

[short ether]

Does the mgu-h work as an alternator also?

[short ether]

Could you send the video link?

[jagged horizon]

Yeah it sits on the turbo shaft and recharges the battery. So if you mean like an alternator in the sense of converting mechanical to electrical energy then yes, with the added bonus of being able to act as a motor and spool the turbo

[short ether]

I meant that it slows the car down. I know the MGU-K does that.

[edgy anchor]

Yes.

[jagged horizon]

It will slow the car down somewhat as under engine braking it will cause a resistance to the turbo turbine shaft and create backpressure. However I can't see this as being much under engine braking conditions when the turbo has spooled down from load

[tall wyvern]

It also doesn’t because the exhaust side is overexpanded aka it extracts more power than needed to run the compressor side.

[short ether]

What would happen if F1 cars drove with Flow vis and aero rakes at the same time?

Wtf happened to the lower image

[tall wyvern]

Not sure what you mean by ‘what would happen’, they serve different purposes.

[primal patrol]

williams have discovered a loophole in the technical regulations which lets them noclip through the earth thus gaining time

[primal bluff]

No wonder they're so fast on the straights

[primal patrol]

yep

[astral sleet]

To really understand the race course, u have to become the race course

[proud pumice]

Exactly

[short ether]

How does the MGU-H create electricity?
Is it only when the turbo has reached its max peak of 150k rpm?
Also, does the MGU-H deploy power in any way?
It’s not connected to the crankshaft.

[proud pumice]

What's with the reaction lol ?

[proud pumice]

↑?

Is that it ?

The Mgu-H

It produces electricity using the motor which acts as a generator

And Ig it produces electricity the entire time until it reaches the limit

I see it that way

The faster the turbo runs

The faster the battery recharges

It's basically controlled by the control unit underneath

So

It deploys power

While not being connected

To the crankshaft

Simply because it's to "reduce turbo lag"

[tall wyvern]

it can either harvest or deploy, not both. the motor-generator is attached to the turbocharger spool. in harvest, the exhaust gas spins the motor-generator and stores electricity in the battery, in deploy, the motor-generator goes into motor mode and spins the spool and thus the compressor.

[proud pumice]

That's it

[short ether]

Yeah. I’m wondering how it generates the resistance though.
The MGU-K is resistance against the wheels, slowing the car.
For the MGU-H in harvest mode, it doesn’t seem to be slowing or ‘resisting’ anything down, or is it in harvest only when the turbo is in max rpm?

Am I conflating between ‘slowing down’ and ‘resistance’ here?

[tall wyvern]

well it's 'resisting' the rotation of the spool from the exhaust

[short ether]

will a sidepode like this give more downforce?

[tall wyvern]

Not in a vacuum

[short ether]

Does anyone have pics of DLCC coating on metallic elements?

Or any good still images of f1 pistons and cylinder blocks. (V6)

[paper wing]

Congrats @final dust, you're now on lap 10

[short ether]

What’s the second pic

[final dust]

idk

you asked for DLCC coating on metallic elements, i got you a metallic element with DLCC coating

[short ether]

Ok

Thanks

I know the engine stuff is super secretive but if anyone has V6 pics that would be nice

[edgy anchor]

Resisting the pressure of the gas against the turbine... But here in lies the complexity because you wanna g3t the most lut of that without it stalling

https://preview.redd.it/1g55sie6s7q81.png?auto=webp&s=7d3ae29e65a143d6a442f8f4b0a8c762497aad22

https://external-preview.redd.it/V0X-_wDf93fRTCEXWQGz7GKyhMEkK3irZxEvIzjbYEQ.jpg?auto=webp&s=0f8474f11a9fd3c80821e8b5d8662954ceb6efb6

[short ether]

Thanks @edgy anchor

I’m surprised there’s pics of an engine so recent

[short ether]

The exhaust manifold shape is so weird, coming straight out the cylinder block

[edgy anchor]

Honda did so I assume coz of the whole oh we're leaving

Yeah so it's actually a Jet

The piston engine does nothing

Air straight frough

[short ether]

I forgot why the Merc plenum is so much thicker, something to do with the trumpets?

[vagrant geode]

does anybody have a clear picture of the rb18 dash?

[civic fern]

meh, sidepods aren't really meant for downforce

some even generate lift on their own, but the airflow they direct into the beam wing means overall it will give more downforce on the car

[primal bluff]

Are they sitting right on top of the battery pack, then?

[upper ivy]

it's slightly behind the driver's seat

(below + behind)

[edgy anchor]

Beneath the fuel cell

[short ether]

Beautiful

[proud pumice]

Location : Silverstone Museum

The one right next to the track

[spark sleet]

What a beauty!

[proud pumice]

it is isn't it

that's the fuel cell behind actually

and further back is a cosworth ford DFV

[silent monolith]

Why doesn’t Mercedes use a high rake design for their floor

[deft burrow]

There is no reason to have high rake with these cars

[merry delta]

ideally, yes

but apparently Red Bull sees a reason to use more rake than the rest of the teams

[edgy anchor]

Adrian newey has always, at least since joining Red Bull, sought to use high rake concepts because he knows how to use the floor edges to seal them efficiently enough to pull using the extreme diffuser angles

[deft burrow]

They also run their car higher off the ground than the rest of the grid, if you didn’t notice.

I am not an aerodynamicist, but they’ve figured out how to make their car less reliant on being as low to the ground to generate downforce

[edgy anchor]

A bigger expansion zone I assume is better than a tighter pinch point

Maybe not on paper initially

[west pasture]

Because they can run the car higher

Mercedes can’t.

[tall wyvern]

Running a car with tunnels low is important for two reasons:

1. wings in ground effect produce MUCH MUCH more downforce.
2. far from the ground, the vortices produced by the curves vortex generators at the inlet roll around each other. The closer you get, the more they unroll and follow the tunnels parallel, inducing suction on the roof.

Red bull have just worked out how to make their vortex structure stable and distinct enough to not roll up in the tunnels, even at higher tide heights.

The main function of rake, contrary to popular belief, is to counteract the constriction of the tunnels due to boundary layer build up.

[edgy anchor]

But you want Vortex roll

That creates suction

[tall wyvern]

Unroll as in from each other, not burst

[edgy anchor]

Elaborate

[tall wyvern]

Excuse the terrible photo; I had to dig out a textbook. In the tunnels, the vortices rotate the same way, so they roll up around each other. What you want to happen is for the vortices to smoothly follow the surface, like C over the plate. In our case, it’s the roof of the tunnel.

This is what happens with the tunnels too high from the ground, roll up. If you go lower, the vortices can’t roll up so they ‘stick’ to the roof.

[stray shale]

what book did you get that from?

[tall wyvern]

Race car aerodynamics by Joseph Katz

[stray shale]

thank you

[jagged horizon]

Does anyone on here know of a good media source for constant deep technical analysis of the cars and updates? I love 'the race' however looking for something more technical and with semi constant content

[stray shale]

https://www.f1technical.net/

[topaz basin]

Tbh i wanna learn more about aerodynamics as there vital for motorsports

[proud pumice]

👍🏽

[primal patrol]

start with drag

[tall wyvern]

what

[short ether]

Why is the fire in the airbox?

I thought there was no fuel lines through there

[edgy anchor]

It'll be a backfire from incorrect timing, component failure, etc.

[short ether]

Thanks

[short ether]

Huh

[radiant elm]

What is the best way to learn about aerodynamics I currently have a textbook about it but is there any other ways to learn btw I'm only nat5 in maths and physics at the moment

3pm apparently but I don't think it sounds like

Nvm timetable says it ends at 19.10 but I'm not 100% that's right

[tall wyvern]

Which textbook?

[final dust]

Local time?

[proud pumice]

Here😂 ....or even looking for ressources online

[final dust]

The race started at 16:00 (or 4pm local time). Verstappens time was 1:30:17.345 . So the official time (still local) was 18:30 (+17.345 sec)(6pm) when max crossed the finish line at the end of the gp and winning his first title. (For the lazy ppl out there, the time zone there is GMT+4)
If you want a tattoo, wait a bit, bc there is still an investigation on Red Bull breaching the budget cap in 2021, putting verstappens title in risk.
||source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Abu_Dhabi_Grand_Prix ||

[radiant elm]

Race car aerodynamics got it for my birthday

[tall wyvern]

That’s all you need

[radiant elm]

Race Car Aerodynamics: Designing for Speed
Book by Joseph Katz

[radiant elm]

Ok

[proud pumice]

Couple this with some CFD software

[tall wyvern]

Don’t do that it will confuse you

[proud pumice]

I meant like

[tall wyvern]

Just read through race car aerodynamics start to finish

[proud pumice]

As an experiment base afterwards

[tall wyvern]

CFD is an entirely different skill

[radiant elm]

I do a bit of 3d modelling already but I agree with you I should read it through first for sure

Btw does the cost cap thing have any chance of effecting this season

[civic fern]

More like a software know how than aerodynamics study

[tall wyvern]

the skill in cfd is knowing what physics to use for a certain problem, the software part is just knowing how to use whatever platform you're using to access those physics, and what quirks that platform has. that's the reason some people use old openfoam releases, because they know the quirks.

[civic fern]

Star-CCM+ ❤️❤️

[vital talon]

sup guys, got banned on the another f1 discord server, cuz i got hacked, any ways to join again (my account spammed links)

[misty fjord]

how does the ERS system work?

i know it allows the car to get to ‘higher’ gears

but like how

[burnt frost]

iirc ERS allows the car to use more kinetic energy by charging itself when under breaking and using left over power from the engine
I'm not a expert but I'm pretty sure that's how it works

[misty fjord]

thank you my man 😎

[short ether]

whats the difference between pre-chamber ignition and HCCI? And which one deos F1 use? or both...

is there an f1technical separate discord server?

[gilded wave]

is it a good book?

[edgy anchor]

Hcci is just what diesels do, it's compression it to auto ignition, at least somewhat

Pre chamber ignition is where fuel is sprayed out of an injector into a pre-chamber which has a spark plug in it

[radiant elm]

Ye explains stuff quite well I haven't fully read it though

[edgy anchor]

The last like 5% of fuel has the spark go off and so as the injector sprays, it goes into the chamber on fire

[gilded wave]

aight thnx

[short ether]

does f1 pre chamber still have the 1 spark plug? or one in the pre, and one for the main

[edgy anchor]

The former as regs mandate 1

[short ether]

ok

thanks

does anyone reccomend any good f1 technical books/journals, relating to engines and f1 tech?

[edgy anchor]

https://www.grandprixengines.co.uk/

[short ether]

Thanks a lot

[vague apex]

Are there any updates on RedBull exceeding the budget cap, and if it'll affect Max?

[sleek field]

Wednesday.

[upper hull]

Any good resource on learning race craft?

[jagged horizon]

Uses 1 spark plug to ignite the prechamber system. Then uses the subsequent flame caused by this to ignite the chamber mixture. Creating an outside-in flame front rather than an inside-out one

[short ether]

when they say the engine needs to be preheated with 'coolant'/'anti-freeze', isnt that an oxymoron?

[tall wyvern]

Coolant doesn’t necessarily have to be cold, the coolant is warmed up and fed to the engine block to warm it.

[vague apex]

For racing IRL?

[mild iron]

idk if this would be better for irl racing but,

how about this, instead of making cars produce cleaner are

make them produce dirtier air but then make the cars better with dealing with the dirty air

kinda like nascar

where on oval tracks they increase the dirty air for slip streaming

[upper ivy]

that only works because on oval tracks you slipstream for most of the track anyway

[edgy anchor]

That only works too because NASCAR up until this point hasn't produced a particularly large amount of downforce which affects Cornering massively

Also dirty air isn't just the existence of turbulent air

It's a lack of air too

[upper hull]

Does a driver that usually take more risk during overtake and turning better on the track?

[upper hull]

For IRL and, maybe, sim racing. I mean like a book or something to learn about.

[vague apex]

Im not too sure about a book. A lot of racecraft is learned on the track, or during a race. Generally speaking, @upper hull when you overtake you will often need to take a worse racing line, but be able to gain some kind of advantage within that turn or the next turn, that will put you in front of the other car.

For example if you are going into a right turn, the best racing line will be from far left before the turn,
then hit the apex on the right inside corner, then from the apex point your car towards the left outside corner.

To pass someone into that corner, you will want to be at least side by side to the right of the other car going into the corner. This will be a slower racing line for you, but it would block the other driver from the apex, so you should pass them fully by the end of the corner.

There are tons of variables though

[vivid trellis]

On a Formula 1 track, drivers will be cautious in some corners and attack in others. This is due to some corners having higher risk, such as tight, medium speed corners. Although you have to have balls of steel to drive an F1 car, you also can’t loose too much time overtaking a car. If you can overtake in a faster part of the track, you will loose less time than in a slower part where it may take@m longer to execute the overtake.

[sweet tree]

Why does understeer happen?

and also

Why do the F1 wet tires exist?

[burnt frost]

I can't answer the first one..but I feel like the second question is pretty easy to answer

[sweet tree]

i was asking so i can tell the fucking fia

[burnt frost]

[sweet tree]

Understeer can happen when you run a low wing or your tires are just worn
They can't bite into the ground as easily and it'll just slide

but short answer just means your tires no bite in ground

[stark adder]

https://youtu.be/EQWPumtDXk0

It's also suspension, aero and whatnot

[dense orchid]

Would you rather

HVe understeer car or oversteer

[opaque arch]

oversteer

[gilded wave]

depends on the driver

[naive elm]

depends on the track

street circuits more oversteer

[chilly warren]

oversteer because you can’t see the tree that kills you

[short ether]

Where is the MGU-H?

[dense orchid]

No you as the driver

[tall wyvern]

Inside the turbo

And no, cars are built to be understeery and then made more responsive from there.

[stark adder]

oversteer probabl

[spark sky]

Oversteer

[vague apex]

In the first few years of F1 you didn't get a choice of understeer or oversteer

You got both

But for my race vehicles i prefer a little oversteer.
Understeer can increase likelihood of front wheel lockup, creating a scenario that can become increasingly difficult to correct. With oversteer i can feel where that edge is and adjust my driving accordingly.

[coral glade]

Oversteer all day

[tall wyvern]

Just so wrong.

[sweet tree]

what's wrong?

[drowsy nacelle]

Can you please explain a bit

[tall wyvern]

Oversteer by definition is that the car turns further into the slip angle. Understeer by definition is that the car turns away from the slip angle.

This means that any slight disturbance in the heading of the car gets exaggerated, sometimes dramatically. Gusts of wind, bumps, other cars passing, walls etc etc. the first step is to make a stable car, and then you can tune the response.

[vague apex]

https://www.fia.com/news/fia-statement-financial-regulations-0

[vague apex]

So.... what's wrong then

[tall wyvern]

An oversteery car being desirable

[vague apex]

ideally you want neither oversteer or understeer.

but if i have a choice between my car not turning when i reach the corner (understeer),
or being loose exiting (oversteer),
im gonna prefer a loose exiting corner.

You have a chance of correcting oversteer, you don't get a second chance to correct understeer

although all of this comes down to driver preference and driving style

[tall wyvern]

It’s not all about corner turn in, stability is an equally important consideration. Like I said, an oversteery car (another word for a laterally unstable car) will exaggerate any disturbance to its heading.

[viral trellis]

🤓🤓🤓

[vague apex]

A car prone to understeer is also laterally unstable, and can be affected by other external disturbances.

(Lateral instability is not synonymous with oversteer) Laterally unstable just means it is easily affected by external forces.

[tall wyvern]

No you’re wrong. Lateral instability is synonymous with oversteer. By definition.

[vague apex]

source

[vague apex]

You will notice that there is a reference for both understeer and oversteer conditions under §Lateral Stability

[tall wyvern]

I will notice you didn’t actually read it.

When this condition is met, then the moments (in top view) tend to rotate the vehicle into the slip direction (understeer) and by using the previously defined terminology, the vehicle is considered to be stable.

understeer, stable

The vehicle in this case will be turned away from the direction of the side slip (oversteer), and will be considered unstable.

oversteer, unstable

[edgy anchor]

Understeer is undesirable but usually more predictable so at anything with aerodynamics involved it's usually the lesser evil

Tho I can never seem to get rid of it

[viral trellis]

I'd rather have oversteer

[edgy anchor]

The common bias consensus at least for Indy drivers is Mechnically loose/over and aerodynamically tight/under

[vague apex]

It really comes down to the car, driver, track conditions, etc., whether understeer or oversteer is objectively better

[tall wyvern]

You don’t know what this means

Less stable than in the linear region is what it means, not unstable. The only unstable condition is oversteer.

[jagged horizon]

I agree with you here. Lateral instability relates to the undesired fluctuations in lateral position. Which only oversteer changes

[vague apex]

You're failing to interpret the significance of textbook theory and how it applies to real world racecraft. Understeer vs oversteer is not black and white when applied to real world applications

[tall wyvern]

Horrible argument, hand-wavy ‘textbook actually wrong’ nonsense.

[vague apex]

By making a blanket statement that understeer > oversteer in racing applications, you're saying that a faster car should never slide in a corner which simply isn't true.

My argument is that in some racing applications a car that understeers is faster, and in other racing applications a car that oversteers is faster

[tall wyvern]

I didn’t say that

I said cars are designed to be stable and then made more responsive from there

You didn’t accept that an understeer condition is stable.

[tall wyvern]

Solid job there quoting the exact message I just repeated

[vague apex]

Then you went on to say that a preference of oversteer is wrong

[tall wyvern]

Desirable in design

Vehicle designers tend to avoid the OS characteristic.

[vague apex]

In reference to racecars or street vehicles?

Nobody wants a street vehicle to oversteer

[tall wyvern]

Both

Critical velocity is a direct result of cornering stiffness, mass, wheelbase and centre of gravity. If it’s too low, oversteer happens in low speed corners. It needs to be designed out of the vehicle.

[vague apex]

But some race vehicles, racing under certain conditions, perform better with oversteer right?

[tall wyvern]

Totally depends on the driver and the track. Is the track gusty? Oversteer bad (oversteery cars force the car away from the wind). Does the track have medium-slow corners? Oversteer bad (critical velocity lower meaning more spin). Is the track predominantly traction limited? Oversteer bad (demanding longitudinal and lateral grip at the same time).

[vague apex]

In motorsport such as WRC and Outlaw sprint cars, hillclimb races, etc,
some oversteer is almost unavoidable, and driving slow enough to prevent oversteer will create poor track results.

[tall wyvern]

That is definitely true, but it’s more a function of tyre grip on loose surfaces, and for WRC AWD correcting yaw, rather than oversteer being strictly faster.

[primal patrol]

me when

https://tenor.com/view/calculating-puzzled-math-confused-confused-look-gif-14677181

[jagged horizon]

This has been a very interesting argument to read

[zinc bison]

Given that Newey technically works for RB Technology, and that RB and AT ran the same chassis in 2007, why don't AT use the same car as RB as a whole to just rake in more results and cash, and see what juniors are like in a senior car, in a junior team?

[upper ivy]

because there are parts that, as specified in the rules, the teams HAVE to make/design themselves

[zinc bison]

Is that the same rule that caught out force india in 2020 about their brake ducts?

[upper ivy]

yup

[zinc bison]

yeah righto

thanks

[upper ivy]

to be more specific, the compontents in question are classified as "Listed Team Components", and each team must design those themselves or at least have the exclusive "rights" to use them (e.g. if they outsource the design to a 3rd party)

[idle obsidian]

Does anyone else find the cars from like 2006-2008 were just so cool to look at? like im glad that the simpler cars this year has created some better racing but at the same time i want to see how complicated these teams can make their cars and the downforce etc

[naive elm]

the current cars are too big and look fat

iirc they are planning to decrease the szie of the cars

[west pasture]

Newey has requested it for years now but it’s really hard

[short ether]

Do they glue on the plank?

RB mechanic was spotted with sealant gun working on the underside

[edgy anchor]

I completely agree as also the car's aesthetic is better as they're chonkier and also I think the big help is the Rear wheel diveplanes, which kept there from being dead space. Also

https://external-preview.redd.it/bQ1FPpXTfqPTgZr82m7mFNIRYEx9T-F1uX2VgczK0A0.jpg?auto=webp&s=feec6a26471375d1fbcd582ab509307d39ff7a60

Along this topic, if F1 evolved 2008 to now

I'd love to see how a car would look with the entire body looking this batty

As opposed to what we ended up happening with hot spots of clashing design regulations

[vivid trellis]

Each Formula One team have to design their own car, however certain components can be outsourced from different teams. For example, For 2021, Alpha Tauri had to make their own chassis, but for example the gearbox and Hydraulic components were sourced from RedBull Racing. The power unit was sourced from Honda, the same as RedBull Racing, meaning their race car was a mix of Redbull components and Alpha Tauri components. Mercedes however designs and produces all their components for their race car, without sourcing any components externally.

[zinc bison]

Is there a publicly available list of mandatory self designed parts?

[deft burrow]

You can look in the technical regulations, on the FIA’s site, should be a section on that

[zinc bison]

tight, cheers

[vivid trellis]

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/formula_1_-_technical_regulations_-_2022_-_iss_9_-_2022-02-18.pdf

These are the full 2022 technical regulations.

[upper ivy]

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/2022_formula_1_technical_regulations_-_issue_10_-_2022-03-17.pdf#page=165&zoom=auto,-58,19

this should directly jump to the relevant section

(Appendix 5)

[vivid trellis]

👍

[short ether]

Why are RB running relatively high rake in ground effect era?

[short ether]

What is ‘brake glazing’?

[vivid trellis]

F1 race cars use carbon fibre brakes, and to get them to work efficiently they have to be within a certain temperature range. If the F1 car brakes go under 400°C the brake pads and discs can create a shiny surface, the shiny surface creates inconsistencies in the braking.

[short ether]

Is this only for carbon fibre f1 brakes

[vivid trellis]

Yes, although it differs from compounds. Road cars for example can overcome glazing quickly, F1 cars can not.

[short ether]

Thanks.

If anyone knows good things to read on brake technology that would be nice

[olive shore]

E

[tall wyvern]

Two reasons:

1. to counteract boundary layer growth, which would otherwise constrict the tunnel momentum
2. to increase the diffuser expansion ratio, which increases the mass flow through the floor

[edgy anchor]

https://tenor.com/view/dirty-docks-shawty-triflin-shawty-triflin-she-gif-22455514

The only way I feel like teams would now just jam the cars to floor is if, like the 80's or now for certain cars, there are reliefs for boundary layers

[radiant elm]

Could someone clarify for me what article says if the race is restarted full points are awarded?
I'm really confused

[short ether]

That's the base rule. Race is finished with a chequered flag => award maximum points.
If race is ended from being suspended then the partial scoring system comes into place.

All of this only matters if a race is suspended and cannot be resumed.

How do i make this more aerodynamic

Just put mirrors on the sidewings

How is that gonna help

What about now?

I made the wing up side down

[final dust]

Downforce

[short ether]

If i cut this part what will happen?

[brave field]

Less lift

[short ether]

Will it affect the flying of plane ?

And this?

[junior ruin]

It will just drop off a lot quicker or even plummet

[loud gazelle]

It will make it more unstable when it's in the air

[radiant elm]

Is there any conditions you may overtake during a vsc? Such as if you will have to stop to make sure you don't overake?

[loud gazelle]

Put small vortex generators at the end of each wing

[short ether]

Can you give me a example?

[loud gazelle]

https://youtu.be/eP-YUDe9HF0

[short ether]

Is that the wastegate on top of the exhaust?

I thought they removed the split wastegate

Also, what intercooler/radiator type is that?

[short ether]

Thank you ver much

[loud gazelle]

No problem i am a nerd 🤓👍

[short ether]

I an trying to become one

Becouse i love the engineering aspect of Formula1

[tall wyvern]

This is vortex generating

[short ether]

What parts of suspension geometry and tyre pressure/setup increases deg?

[edgy anchor]

Thay is the wastegate pipe, yes

http://en.f1i.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/EN_F1-moteur-honda-images-4.jpg

[sage walrus]

to be hoenst the only way to be able to tell is with CFD or see if you can do some basic CFD study with pen and paper

so 2D

I did a foam airplane competition on my very first of school and honestly for optmization, id would just try to see where the center of lift would be and the center of gravity/mass is

often on these types of design competitions they're quite far from eachotehr so you end up just having a plane that just wants to somersault

stuff like vortex generation and etc... you need a solid base understanding of your model not only from CFD and lab data to see if it will be beneficial

[final dust]

So. If my calculations are right, RB needs to get 18 more points than ferrari in austin to secure the Constructor championship too.
There is 4 races left. The current difference between ferrari and rb is 165 points. The maximum available number of points (after USA) is 147. (P1+P2+Fastest lap point) (I addded the sprint race too, where the max points is 8+7=15, no fastest lap point in sprint) Therefore rb needs to get 18 more points than ferrari in the next race.
Correct me if im wrong

[surreal crystal]

So what do you call an F1 car? Just an F1 car?

As an example of what I'm getting at. You have genres of cars like Sedans and SUVs. What is the appropriate name for the cars used in F1 and other similar divisions?

[vestal blaze]

Open wheel?

[tall wyvern]

Open wheel single seaters

[inland relic]

More generally, a “race car”

Then like said above, there are open wheel race cars 🏎️

[short ether]

I mean, it works for Mercedes

[short ether]

Thanks

[short ether]

Wtf is a clutch pipe

Does anyone know of generic CFD softwares for non-aerodynamicists, just to play around with simulations?

[edgy anchor]

... Hydraulic lines

They need to actuate the clutch in order to release the grip

[short ether]

Yeah

I should look at the pic next time

[idle obsidian]

Did anyone else notice that AT were running 2 diff types of wings at the japanese grand prix?

why would they not have like for like specs?

[potent torrent]

I don’t mean to get too technical, but looking at the hyper probability of the hypotenuse in an astronomical sense, after hovering over the analysis, i think max verstappen won the championship

[short ether]

To compare both specs?

[graceful sun]

Either that or they could only manage to make enough parts for one car

[green marlin]

An F1 car is a race car, -> more specifically an "open-wheeler", or a "single seater" race car.

Btw, open-wheeler and single seater is the same thing, just different names. In America they call them one thing and in the UK they get called the other.

[proud pumice]

an open wheel car certified by the FIA as being a f1 car

[surreal crystal]

Good to know

[edgy anchor]

What about a single seat, closed wheel car then?

[green marlin]

For example the FE cars.
Not sure what they call them around the world, and I don't remember if it was America or the UK, but they do go under the name of "single seater" (in America or UK, don't remember which).

[edgy anchor]

Well I meant more like a Solus GT or
... I guess late 70's Can-Am is that

[civic fern]

Yeah like Porsche 919

[edgy anchor]

That's... Not really

Coz Prototypes tend to be offset seats to allow for a second

[civic fern]

Does the 2nd seat actually exist in there?

[gilded wave]

what does aquaplaning mean?

[short ether]

The ride height of the car is too low to the water, stalling the underfloor aero to where the plank is just sliding.

[gilded wave]

Ah k

So this year's cars suffer more right?

[tall wyvern]

no, aquaplaning is where the tyres don't dig into the water so the car loses all grip and just slides straight over the surface of the water

[short ether]

With how stiff and low the cars are now, most likely.

[jagged horizon]

Aquaplaning is more dependent on tread pattern and water dispersion, so ride height has little to no impact on aquaplaning itself. It is where the tire does not break the surface tension of the water and loses direct contact with the road

[uneven furnace]

yall -

soo

how do the teams come up with aerodynamic changes in bw seasons

like quickly

lets say Mercs or Rb they changed their car a lot in terms of aero

and how big eacch team could be appx-

[loud gazelle]

Deep thoughts

[vague apex]

Wind tunnel, and engineers lol

[gilded wave]

real eyes realize real lies

[loud gazelle]

https://tenor.com/view/the-deep-deep-thoughts-deep-thoughts-with-the-deep-the-boys-gif-26372785

[lucid sun]

i was wondering why only Pirelli makes tires for F1? why is that?? also i’m asking this because the topic of rain came up and someone said wet tires now only exist to clear water for intermediates but back then around Bridgestone time they were made to race on rain? does that make sense?

why is the whole purpose of wet tires to clear the track but not race on it? like who decided they should clear track??

[short ether]

Pirelli obviously didn’t intend for this, it’s just that the molecular structure and operating window of the wets is so small. They’ll have to make them better for the next years.
Also wet tyres bring up a lot of spray.

[lucid sun]

but why only Pirelli makes tires for F1? what happened to others?

[sage walrus]

find suboptimal behavior from lab, practice, race data

generate ideas that could potentially mitigate or solve it

evaluate with CFD

if possible confirm acracy with testing

if it try a different approach or give up on that goal

aerodynamic development is far, far more exhaustive than it is technically challenging for most things which is why wind tunnel howers, CFD time and such are more important than necesarely having an army of PhDs that army have come up with a new niche turbulence model or something

all F1 teams of course have PhDs but not as the entire crops of engineers

[civic fern]

the Pirelli wet tires are actually pretty good at clearing water from the track. problem is, they throw it all up as spray so the guy behind can't see anything

[sweet tree]

what is up here

[sweet tree]

the way water is launched into the air is so cool to me

except when it comes to visibility

[civic fern]

its probably alright after the first few laps and the field spreads a lot

then again, no race made it that far

if its just one car trying to overtake another, while the cars ahead and behind are much further away, its not impossible

problem is you do throw the other cars ahead and behind in there much closer, and all you see is a wall of water

[sweet tree]

Does the aero play a part in launching the water into the sky?

like the diffuser and rear wing

[civic fern]

yeah

you can visibly see it

[sweet tree]

yeah sorry that was a dumb question

[jagged horizon]

Tire technology is at a stage where competitive manufacturers would be able to create a tire with high amounts of grip that can last a whole race. This would reduce pit stops and potentially eliminate them altogether meaning F1 loses one of its most interesting components, the strategy. Pirelli purposely manufacture tires that will create good strategy, essentially all for entertainment purposes. So basically its because the tires would be too good

[sweet tree]

True

Cars just running without pit stops would be so boring tbh

[civic fern]

basically Michelin and Bridgestone kept making tradeoffs for structural stability/safety in favor of outright speed until you got disasters like Indy 2005

so after that Michelin pulled out of F1 after 2006

and 2007-2010 saw Bridgestone being the only manufacturer

however because tire tech (has been for a while now) at a level where a tire could be made to last a whole race (pit stops were banned in 2005)

strategy was mostly based on fuel loads

and in 2010, refuelling was banned

so you had cars on bulletproof Bridgestones that could go entire races without stopping, and strategy was basically out the window

that didn't create very good racing, because even with a pace advantage of a faster car it wasn't enough to overtake slower cars in front because DRS wasn't a thing yet

ask Fernando Alonso about Abu Dhabi 2010, he'll tell you everything there is to know and more.

[short ether]

What makes Max’s driving style so close to Senna

Is anti-dive suspension banned?

[tall wyvern]

No

[latent shoal]

They both like rotating the car with a very sharp front end (oversteer) and iirc since the senna Era cars were hard to control he used engine shifting to help get the car rotated

[civic fern]

I dont think anyone has a driving style similar to Senna

Max is the early braker over anything else

Senna’s thing is he hits the throttle and lets off repeatedly mid corner

In turbo era, the purpose was clear, to keep the rpms high

But he continued to do it even after turbos were gone

Some things are just hard to unlearn

In a way hes lucky it still worked/wasnt detrimental with the NA cars

[short ether]

well yeah and also it helped the turbos to stay spinning so he had better accel off the corner

[civic fern]

Yeah

But yeah, take Sebastian Vettel for example. His trick that he did better than anyone else was to floor it the earliest, especially as when the car would start to lose traction, he had to do the counter intuitive thing and press the throttle so the exhaust gasses would blow the diffuser, give him more grip, and regain traction. Its something Webber never managed to do because its just so ingrained in the styles they spent their entire developmental years mastering

[graceful sun]

Kek the best drivers always rise to the challenge and will do well regardless of their driving style

There’s so many drivers that made transition from so many different engines and cars types over the years

[civic fern]

So its not entirely surprising when hes battling Hamilton in those Ferraris, and in the heat of the moment “dont think just do”

He steps on the gas early and without the blown diffuser he just spins

Its what he essentially trained his instincts to do

[civic fern]

Theres few that had to adapt from totally counter intuitive styles like Vettel

[uneven furnace]

🇼 👍

[tall wyvern]

You say that, but having more accurate turbulence models (as per your example) is functionally equivalent to getting more cfd time, since your results are more valid. In fact, teams tend to use LES, so they’re only modelling the finest scales, but simulating the larger scales.

[lilac thorn]

Why its call 6 point seat belts?

[tall wyvern]

Cause it’s six points..? The between the legs one is actually two.

[gilded wave]

can someone explain how the 2026 engine will reintroduce turbo lag?

[tall wyvern]

Because you can’t have the turbo constantly spooled up anymore without the MGU-H

[sweet tree]

probably

depending how big the turbos are

i think

[edgy anchor]

With a reduction in fuel and therefore engine power the Turbos won't be big

[final dust]

So that means we can maybe see the senna technique once again?

[short ether]

Probs won’t come back, there’s still good anti-lag. But now the there won’t be direct control of the turbo

[short ether]

No, turbos have evolved a lot since the 80s

[civic fern]

can't they still electrically spin the turbo

if thats not outright banned in the regulations i think every PU manufacturer would go for it

[tall wyvern]

You can’t spin it electrically without the MGU-H, that’s exactly what it is. Anti lag is horrible for fuel consumption and engine wear so I’m not sure what they’ll do.

[sweet tree]

How do you even make anti lag happen?

i forgot

[edgy anchor]

You dump fuel into the exhaust

[sweet tree]

what

[primal patrol]

turbos run off exhaust gases, more fuel gets dumped into the exhaust to keep the gases going which helps spin the turbos

[edgy anchor]

You dump fuel, it eventually lights, all that lights and wants to violently expand

Boom, exhaust pressure

[spark harness]

Was wondering

Why is the slipstream so much stronger at certain tracks like Spa, Imola, Monza, etc

[sage walrus]

most antilag systems are basically afterburners

[sage walrus]

higher speeds

[tall wyvern]

higher speeds is the right answer

[gilded wave]

oh mb then

[proud pumice]

Because of the way the cars are setup.....mostly at Monza I think because of the cars tend to adopt a low drag setup which diminishes the difference with the DRS

[sage walrus]

yes but even then, the cars have a lot of drag since the speeds are so high, ironically enough

typically the force of drag increases to the square of velocity

monza wing set ups give you less drag at a given speed, which then allows you to aceclrate to a higher speed where the force of drag catches up and matches the force of the engine to set a new top speed

[true pendant]

anyone can explain to me what that 56.0 number means on lewis dash?

[alpine ice]

Isn’t that the brake bias

[jagged laurel]

Yup

[proud pumice]

👍🏽

[crystal sinew]

What is that wire

That connects the floor to the sidepods

That's wire

[tall wyvern]

It stops the floor flexing so much

[crystal sinew]

Name ?

[deft burrow]

Floor Stay

[crystal sinew]

Thx

I like em so much

They look so good merc GTR also

[tall wyvern]

I agree it looks cool, I love the wide, low floor on the merc

[sweet tree]

yeah

[drowsy nacelle]

Lmao

[primal patrol]

the things which hold the front splitter in place?

[green marlin]

Ngl to, those rods/wires/whatever you want to call it on race cars look really sexy.

[short ether]

what were the causes for the silverstone 2020 blowouts?

[sweet tree]

maybe something to do with tire pressures

[sterile flume]

What caused the 2013 punctures?

[sweet tree]

what 2013 punctures

[sterile flume]

At Silverstone

[sweet tree]

silverstone just might be a high deg track

[sterile flume]

Ye I get all lot of deg on the F1 games

[deft burrow]

tyres being too soft for the track

[sterile flume]

Like what happened in Baku last year?

[deft burrow]

If I recall, that was the reason that there was a compound change mid season

[deft burrow]

Well Baku last year was because of tyre pressures

[short ether]

also

why dont pirelli use kevlar belts

isnt kevlar just as good as steel

[sweet tree]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[short ether]

dyu guys think too low pressures caused the baku blowouts last year

[sweet tree]

i think Max should just drive better

[daring ridge]

https://twitter.com/RosarioGiuliana/status/1582040631341330433?t=DrshcEu7mm18OWy5Y3JBXQ&s=19

Rosario Giuliana | rosf1design (@RosarioGiuliana)

Doubts about W14 could adopt a shape RB. McLaren and Williams have spent resources to revolutionize sidepods over the course of 2022, while Mercedes has continued to hold the zero-sidepods concept
#F1 #F1Tech #Mercedes

Likes

269

Twitter · Oct 17, 2022, 4:07 PM

[spark harness]

interesting

i've always just thought that it was up to the track or something to do with the location lol

[drowsy nacelle]

Well, it is up to the track. Monza rewards higher straight-line speeds so the teams configure it accordingly

[untold dawn]

@quick palm

[brave field]

In Mexico you do that

[nimble marten]

in Mexico you run monaco level downforce

because of how thin the air is

[open berry]

so does that still give you downforce?

[stiff charm]

Does anyone know a website in here with all the Regulations (Safety etc) from every season?

Like the documents n stuff

[tall wyvern]

About 20% less, further reduced by the fact you need to fulfil greater cooling requirements at altitude, losing you more downforce.

[open berry]

https://tenor.com/view/thumbs-up-gif-20120971

[final dust]

Here is 180 pages of solid 2022 FIA F1 regulations for you
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/formula_1_-_technical_regulations_-_2022_-_iss_9_-_2022-02-18.pdf

[coral glade]

Not me downloading the tech regs

[final dust]

2021: https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/2021_formula_1_sporting_regulations_-_iss_5_-_2020-12-16.pdf
2020: https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/2020_formula_1_sporting_regulations_-_iss_9_-_2020-06-19_0.pdf
2019: https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/2019_technical_regulations_-_2019-03-12.pdf

From 2018 those are all downloadable, if you search up "f1 **[year] **regulations"

[stiff charm]

i ned them from like 1995-now

where can i find the older ones?

[final dust]

give me 5 minutes

[stiff charm]

Even the Fia website doesnt have them lol

ironic

[final dust]

Technical and Safety regulations from

1990-1999: https://www.f1technical.net/articles/62
2000-2009: https://www.f1technical.net/articles/27
2010-2019: https://www.f1technical.net/articles/12497

Not a full, 180 page documents, but here the pages lists (i think) the changes in the regulations

Hope its good for you

[stiff charm]

thank you

[final dust]

if you want more information from anything about the technical part of f1, look more on the website https://www.f1technical.net/

[final dust]

why do you need them btw?

[stiff charm]

writing a 20 page article (research article ig?)

about the evolution of safety in f1

but theres barely sources online

[final dust]

interesting

[stiff charm]

yeah

gotta do a presentation about it aswell

[deft burrow]

The FIA's archives only go back 10 years

[stiff charm]

yeah

[urban geode]

How much horse power did 2019 Ferrari have?

[stark adder]

https://twitter.com/ScarbsTech/status/1583429914996674560

Craig Scarborough (@ScarbsTech)

Interesting interpretation of the wing auxiliary component rules by Mercedes for the #USGP.
Teams are allowed upto 8 brackets to keep the slots between the profiles constant. Merc now use the full 8 & legally exploit them for an aerodynamic.
#F1 #TechTalk #COTA #AustinGP

Twitter · Oct 21, 2022, 12:08 PM

good read

[tall wyvern]

‘Probably used to create out wash’ lol not at those sizes

[civic fern]

My (captain obvious) guess from that angle is to smooth the flow. Like vertical diffuser plates

Obviously its not going to be substantial on its own, but them again nothing is

[hot mural]

any pics of the new mercedes upgrades>?

[manic sentinel]

I haven’t seen any.

[tall wyvern]

Any wrong with an aspect ratio as low as that is a vortex generator

*wing

[upper ivy]

interesting interpretation but apparently also not a legal interpretation after all

[tall wyvern]

They said the CAD was legal which means the fia done messed up

[green marlin]

The location is actually relevant too.
The temp and the air density (which is heavily affected by the height of the track) have a direct effect on the engines and the surface of the car it self.

[short ether]

any opinions on the 25% wind tunnel penalty rumour and its impact on RB?

[short ether]

nice

[final dust]

Nice

[green marlin]

If the breach really didn't affect the car too much for the 2021 season and the 2023 season a penalty of 25% less wind tunnel time is a bit harsh. Though, at the same time a cost cap breach is a cost cap breach. How much it is with don't matter and a harsh penalty may be needed to scare off any other team from the urge of doing it?

[short ether]

I agree

[radiant elm]

Why do we not see aerodynamics in road cars as often?
Because they save fuel economy and usually make a them look much nicer

[sage walrus]

most consumer cars are designed to eliminate as much drag as possible, on faster sports car they will introduce some lift features such as spoilers

[radiant elm]

Ye I meant drag reduction and this may be a stupid question why do they have flat backs?

[sage walrus]

often its the simplest way to do it

most car body panels are made from stamped steel which doesn't allow for a lot of form freedom but is the cheapest way to manufacture a metal product if available

also they're often have the least drag as well

hopefully this answer the question

@radiant elm

[radiant elm]

Ok thanks

[sage walrus]

most of what F1 teams are trying to eliminate is induced drag from vorticity in flow

it doesn't really exist to a alrge degree with a normal car

when it comes to that stuff, unfortunately I can't really help, my fluids and CFD classes didn't really get that far

[civic fern]

i think thats more of an ergonomics condition over anything else lol

interior space is prioritized, and have a cube on 4 wheels maximizes that

when you try to slope that down (think SUV vs a sedan) you gain in drag reduction but lose a lot of interior space

SUVs are crushing sedans in sales

[primal patrol]

^

[tall wyvern]

This is not true, you cannot eliminate induced drag. It’s pressure drag (and to a lesser extent friction drag) that can be designed out.

[tall wyvern]

If you mean flat backs as in hatchbacks, it’s because if you have a slope you generate massive pressure drag as vortices form on the sloped surface. Above about 30 degrees is fine, but it goes down more and more up to 90

[sharp shard]

because its not that big of a deal. theres issues road cars have just by existing, and theres no point trying to cut corners in other places when the limits are already reached in certain parts.

[jagged horizon]

If you look at cars from the early 80s and the cars now you will see a massive change in the aerodynamic design. I think it was during the 90's where some Australian cars started being developed using wind tunnels (I'm sure other countries started even earlier) because efficiency gains were there to be had. They are aero designed its just not as obvious or extreme as the speeds are lower and there are other factors that need to be designed for

[radiant elm]

Ye true

[tall wyvern]

Aerodynamic design goes into every single car, hatchbacks being hatchbacks is aerodynamic, shooting brakes are aerodynamic, tonnes of cars have vortex generators on their roof now etc etc. wheels and bodies generate enough lift that cars can become quite unstable even at motorway speeds, so often spoilers and dams are put on cars to make them more stable.

[sage walrus]

fair enough, i really don't know much about indusced drag concepts as it was towards the end of my CFD class and I was only a year removed from a life threanting brain injury so it just went over my head

do endplates not effect spillover?

[tall wyvern]

They do, because the more finite a wing is, the more span wise flow you get and the stronger vortices, aka the higher the aspect ratio, the less drag. Endplates have the effect of increasing effective aspect ratio as a function of the wing span and endplate height.

The takeaway is that the only way to reduce induced drag is to increase aspect ratio, ie shorten the chord or lengthen the span, since induced drag is a function of lift and aspect ratio.

[low frost]

Hello f1 fans
i always wonder how pit stops crews work

like this one ok 3 on each tire 2 for lifting but what is the job for the other 4 (2 side , 2 front)

i saw one time they clean the front wing but here just unknown

https://youtu.be/mV51HqkmAjM

another one
how did they change the front wheels while the front wing is broken
https://youtu.be/ti3ELIlAGlk?t=277

i know they lift the car from front and back and then put board with wheels under it in normal parking conditions
but here they did the same?

[primal patrol]

if i had to guess, the other crew in that mclaren pitstop are there to keep the car stable

[fallen tulip]

there are jacks they can use on the sides of the car

[fallen tulip]

the front/side mechanics can do many things such as:
-clear debris
-adjust the adjustable part of the front wing (front)
-take tape off of the brake ducts if the brakes need more cooling
-switch steering wheel (side)
-switch headrest (side)

the side mechanics are also there to help stabilise the car and keep it from wobbling to much while balanced on the jacks

iirc

[fallow sierra]

For everyone whose curious to look at the data of Vettel vs Magnussen last lap battle here you go!

key points from this graph:

1. In the last few corners Vettel out brakes Magnussen by quite a margin
2. Vettel has DRS and the speed advantage can be seen.
3. Vettel with newer tires consistently has better traction out of the corners and gets better corner exits.

[low frost]

intresting THX !!

pit stops is really one of the most interesting points in the race , 18 on the car, one goes wrong timing goes wrong

[burnt frost]

I have a question (this regarding flags and may be a stupid one but whatever)
Are white flags waved and shown to drivers when vehicles like the tractor are near/on the track? It's the whole point of those to warn drivers of these?

[civic fern]

i assume an exception is made at Paul Ricard as that is simply the French national flag?

but fr tho, usually its double yellows from what i've seen

[burnt frost]

Isn't the White flags purpose to warn of a misc vehicle on track?

There's enough people to wave yellows and whites

[short ether]

What’s aspect ratio.

[civic fern]

span divided by chord

[edgy anchor]

Same as TV screens

Width:depth/length/height/whatever

[tall wyvern]

Yes span/chord, or span squared / wing area

[jagged horizon]

That is awesome to see, can really see the key differences. Where on earth did you get this data though?

[upper ivy]

well when a tractor is on the track then that's a Safety Car anyway + there'd be another hazard in first place (stranded/crashed car), so the white flag would be a bit redundant in that case. Also the tractor isn't really driving along the track, it's pretty much at one small section only.

the white flag is more of a general "slow vehicle on track" which will be used pretty much only for an F1 car slowly driving back to the pits. Any other vehicle on track will be an immediate Safety Car nowadays

Unlike e.g. in NLS, F1 doesn't have a situaion where some track vehicle would drive along the circuit for a significant portion of the lap without yellows

the only situation in relatively recent years where that was the case was that "rogue" fire vehicle in Korea, where the white flags also were (appropriately) used for a few seconds before Whiting called for the Safety Car because of that vehicle.

[tall wyvern]

https://theoehrly.github.io/Fast-F1/

You can easily do it yourself with the fast f1 python package

[inland dirge]

how did drivers in 2012 see much much KERS they have left?

like cars that didnt have dashboards (redbull)

[deft burrow]

Red Bull had theirs mounted to the cockpit.

[sweet tree]

sheesh

williams inspired wheel

but done better

[ruby veldt]

now i am no technical expert but how much downforce is expected to be lost during this week's race?

Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez is at an elevation of 2200~ meters, which is a stark contrast to the 150m elevation of COTA

[sterile sequoia]

Approximately a fuck ton

[ruby veldt]

just did a bit of googling

25% of downforce

and they run monaco setups

god damn

[jagged horizon]

Gary Anderson did a podcast this week and gave a figure that the air is around 80% the density of a standard track. The most interesting thing to look out for is how the engines perform with less air. In theory they shouldn't lose power as the turbo can just work harder. Fuel is the limiting factor not air. But if engine designers have designed a responsive turbo it may not have the headroom to work harder without exceeding the turbo rpm limit. Of course the MGU-H masks a lot of these differences so I am keen to see how teams go here in 2026 when it is just a standard mechanical turbocharger

[graceful sun]

Probably loose a lot of power

From what I remember honda engines have headroom on the turbos which is why they seem better at Mexico

[dark trench]

why does merc have this wing as it doesnt look very legal

[fallen tulip]

I think that it just doesn't have all the elements attached yet, no way they can (or would want to) run only the mainplane

[upper ivy]

especially in Mexico

[civic fern]

You’ve heard of Monza rear wing, welcome to Monza front wing

[fallen tulip]

oval course type front wing

[severe knoll]

has nobody noticed the "kinky kylie" text at the edge of the cockpit???

[graceful sun]

No because that was the name of the car

[sweet tree]

lmfao

[true pendant]

i have a few questions about the wind tunel

is there just one wind tunnel all the teams can use

or can you build your own and use it to the maximum you want

[jaunty surge]

they were taking the austin wing to the fia i imagine

as i saw on twitter they've been allowed to test it for FP1

[true pendant]

its legal mike elliot said they had only one and didnt want it damaged during qualifying and changing it will get grid penalty

but they have enough for mexico and they will run it

[tall wyvern]

Some teams have their own wind tunnels, some use the wind tunnels of other teams. You can have your own but you can only operate it according to the rules, aka maximum speed and scale.

[true pendant]

why do they limit the time in it?

[tall wyvern]

Cost

[true pendant]

isnt it FIA that limits the time you can use the wind tunnel?

[stark adder]

pretty sure?

[terse hamlet]

Yeah, there's a benchmark time amount, and the teams get a certain percentage either above or below that benchmark depending on their placement in the constructors the previous year

Same with CFD time pretty sure

[upper ivy]

with CFD it's basically the amount of operations that's limited (FLOPS)

so whether you have a super fast computer or not doesn't matter too much in theory

[celest plaza]

not a f1 but still a beauty

[short ether]

What is it

Btw, is there a cap on the voltage of the ES?

[celest plaza]

not too sure, a gp3 or something near that

[short ether]

U got any more pics?

Could someone explain the ‘chicken’ wishbone in greater detail?

[short ether]

Impressive, very nice.

[edgy anchor]

https://tenor.com/view/christian-bale-a-merican-psycho-very-nice-impressed-gif-5536509

[misty fjord]

cery moce

googoo

[jagged horizon]

Coming back to this. The ferrarais new power unit looked to suffer due to the altitude. Maybe the mguh struggling to regulate boost when working outside it's normal operating range?

[true pendant]

how many Mj is a F1 car allowed to deploy in one lap

[deft burrow]

4MJ but only 2MJ can be recovered per lap

[true pendant]

yes

[true pendant]

so if you use 4mj you have to harvest for 2 laps to deploy 4mj agai

[deft burrow]

As far as I understand, yes.

[vivid trellis]

The energy store can hold 4 mega joules for any amount of time, although the output is limited to 2 mega joules or about 30 seconds maximum across a lap. although it’s not necessary to use the ers system, that’s why you may see a car gain 6-8 tenths in a lap, and then drop back a few tenths when the car is recharging. It’s a little more complicated than this, as the ers system is basically comprised of the the MGU-k and MGU-H, which gathers energy via different means.

[wild talon]

Does anyone know if they are going to be testing the new tires fp2 again next race?

[vivid trellis]

Believe all tire testing is completed for 2023, believe the Mexican test was supposed to be the cancelled Sazuka test.

[wild talon]

Thanks

[tall wyvern]

No, output is 4MJ per lap to the MGU-K, unlimited to the MGU-H. It’s 2MJ MGU-K harvesting and unlimited MGU-H harvesting.

[short ether]

So is the Ferrari split turbo?

[deft burrow]

Their design isn’t split turbo as far as I know

[silver jewel]

I am probably going to be spending most of my time in this chat because imma try and build a scaled down version of the Mclaren MP4/5

Only thing is I haven’t got a damn clue on how to build one

All I got is some decent CAD skills and a OSHA certification

[jagged horizon]

I'm sure the OSHA certificate will be useful for this

But seriously, sounds like a cool project. Are you 3d printing?

[silver jewel]

Yes

I got a ender 5 plus and I have been using it for the past couple of years

And I am 100% going to print a bunch of parts

Actually the steering wheel is going to be a modern Mclaren wheel that I found online

I have gold filament right now but I am going to get silver to a be the contrasting color

[rigid thorn]

did this removal of the front wing help at all

[edgy anchor]

It was meant to just reduce drag as the tunnels did most of the work

[silver jewel]

I got some of the math done

I am going to scale the car down to 68.275% it’s original size

Because length would be exactly 3 meters

And width would be 1.457 meters

Now I just need to do dimension for the nose and back wing and figure out how to not scale down the pilot area

[paper wing]

Congrats @silver jewel, you're now on lap 5

[silver jewel]

Might have to cut into the side pods

[short ether]

how does the modern f1 wing help

[edgy anchor]

Wdym?

[silent heron]

He means how it generates downforce

So all that about the mass airflow rate, speed and pressure differences. Maybe also how the two elements work? I only gave a very vague explanation to him in #formula-1 , waiting for one of you to give a more detailed one. I’m interested in understanding the two elements too

[graceful sun]

Air flow pushes the wing down and thus the car into the ground creating grip allowing them to take corners faster

Higher the airflow the higher the downforce

https://youtu.be/ZFEzMKYjShc

Basically watch this series

[sweet tree]

i learned a lot of chain bear

lol

and other youtubers

chain bear is a great way to touch the surface

[short ether]

how do the wings on the side of the wheels work

[short ether]

i cant

it’s

confusing

to me

i’d rather have someone just say the simple stuff to my face

[edgy anchor]

Where?

https://cdn-1.motorsport.com/images/amp/2eAQp1j2/s1000/ferrari-f1-75-front-brake-deta.jpg

These?

https://cdn-1.motorsport.com/images/mgl/YP3QAQ82/s8/mclaren-mcl36-rear-brake-wingl-1.jpg

These?

[short ether]

Just cleans the turbulence generated around the wheel. Hence probably a slight reduction in drag

[short ether]

yes

[short ether]

oh

[edgy anchor]

The top side keeps the air close to the tyre to stop the airflow just spreading up and out, and thye lower side has a curve to it to channel/skirt air to the floor

It's more a Flow Conditioner, that is to just change the air aiming direction than to be raw downforce makers