classic-motorsport

[past drift]

the raised nose changes everything

[vague pollen]

I'm jus wonderin bc when I looked up the B191A & B191B it jus shows the same car lol

Ik that in some races early in 91 they still had the low nose but it looks like that's the only difference haha

Not rlly enough to be a proper B spec car bc the rest of it's still identical to the B190

Like the Ferrari F2001B is a proper B spec car bc it had F2002 parts on it & u can tell by how different its engine sounds from onboards

[past drift]

isn't that what a B spec should be?

what's the difference between the MP4/2 and 2B

between 2B and 2C

technically it just means you have the same tub

[tacit nest]

Canada 2012 was a heartbroking one for Alonso

[hardy ravine]

yes monaco was the time that many people thought to stop f1, after karl wendlinger's crash

in sauber

the nose is wider also

mansell only did two races in 1995. couldn't even fit in the car

[hardy ravine]

between fw15 a,b a and c too

they continued development

from 1992 to 1993

[elfin siren]

That's Damon Hill during the 1994 San Marino Grand Prix

Damon believe Ayrton Senna's Fatal Accident was because Ayrton took the Corner Too Fast and referred the Car had just restarted the Race with Cold Tyres

[mighty ginkgo]

what lap did it happen again

[elfin siren]

Lap 5 was actually when Senna died

[desert plover]

Lap 7

It was the only second lap of actual racing though, the first few laps were under a safety car

[mighty ginkgo]

oh

[iron shadow]

this car is actually so fire

[desert plover]

Random Fact, Despite finishing first and second in the 1997 standings, Jacques Villeneuve and Michael Schumacher never shared a podium all season long

[languid trout]

Was it also fire when it came to its performance?

[past drift]

it wasn't too bad, but clearly Williams was struggling without Newey

oh, and Zanardi had a shockingly bad season.

[languid trout]

I see

[signal lance]

jos and max racing suitsss

[distant garnet]

https://www.ddinstagram.com/p/DEvBfqwNcjc/?igsh=cmppbTk0OXI2M3g3

[desert plover]

Another Random Fact, Niki Lauda never achieved pole position with McLaren despite winning the world drivers championship with them in 1984

Actually, Lauda never even started a race from the front row in 1984! Even more impressive

[vague pollen]

https://youtu.be/0cXMPgC-m7c?si=xF-pFFEMUEEBULWC

This guy has to be 1 of the most underrated drivers ever

[outer pier]

apparently one of sennas struggles with the fw16 was the smaller cockpit, in previous cars he drove he had enough room to move his arms and wrists more freely

[desert plover]

I think it was to reduce blisters

This is his hand after the 1984 Monaco GP

[outer pier]

Oh

well that clears it up, thank you 👍

[distant garnet]

And then they did the thing with the steering column and we know what happened

[vague pollen]

That's not known as being the main or only cause of his crash tho

The cause of his crash is still unknown

[distant garnet]

There is the theory of a slow puncture as well

[mighty ginkgo]

what was done with the steering column again i forgot

[past drift]

is it?

[distant garnet]

Williams attempted to increase the length of the steering column, though the way it was made and soldered seemed way handmade

And in most of the onboards you can see the steering does have some wiggling

Honestly, what makes it more tragic is that before Imola, Adrian Newey and Williams already understood what was making the car have some bad moments early season and what they should do after it

[past drift]

about the suspension geometry or sth?

[distant garnet]

Nope,aerodynamical instability

[past drift]

ok! i remember it had iffy handling, but forgot where it was from

[distant garnet]

As Newey said to German Auto, Motor & Sport in 2015:
"[The 1994 Nogaro test] ... confirmed that the car's side pods were too long, which meant that the aero was split from the diffuser when the nose of the car dipped and the side-pods got too close to the track."

Citation needed though,though there the video of it:
"In addition, at a television program on the 20th anniversary of Imola 1994, Gerhard Berger recalled a conversation he had with Senna at the race in which Senna said: "We are now finally aware of the problem with this car and in two or three weeks from now the problems should be solved."[9] The FW16 indeed became more competitive after this timeframe"

[mighty ginkgo]

oh

[vague pollen]

I mean it jus seems like rumours & speculation bc it ain't been confirmed by anyone

Hill thinks it was the car bottoming out, some say it coulda been cold tires

[past drift]

meh, the car stopped turning completely, that can't be either

[vague pollen]

I heard it also coulda been a suspension failure which caused the arm to pierce Senna's visor

[past drift]

i think Newey's stance that it was the bad welding of the steering column works out

[vague pollen]

Ye but none of this has ever been officially confirmed by anyone from Williams or the FIA

I mean fuck it there's even 1 rumour that he was assassinated

[past drift]

but what did the italian justice conclude

[vague pollen]

Idk tbh there's so many different theories out there that no one believes or agrees on

So Idk which ones could be true or not😅

[past drift]

i'll trust whatever the justice concluded

they did a 3y enquiry, no need to claim they're lying because THIS is the reason

(THIS being whatever exotic theory)

[paper fossil]

I don’t trust the Italians

Took them 13 years to actually come to a conclusion

One that is still debatable as is

[idle gale]

Ayrton and Roland

[mighty ginkgo]

What team did roland primarily drive for

[desert terrace]

Simtek

[mighty ginkgo]

oh

[elfin siren]

Guess the Team and Driver that seen in the 1995 Australian Grand Prix

[wintry sleet]

oo that seems to be benetton renault

uhm idk is that Schumacher?

[distant garnet]

Blud thinks it's hard to guess

[hardy ravine]

yeah

[hardy ravine]

benetton, michael schumacher

[hardy ravine]

3 poles, but never led a lap

[paper fossil]

2 of them yeah

He basically couldn’t even remember the previous day before the start of Germany 85

[pliant lagoon]

HEHEHEH IM GETTING THE NEW F1 CITY SETS

[daring wedge]

#1 benetton so it has to be a champion... jos verstappen🔥

[past drift]

https://youtu.be/l2R_Gf2LH34 ads with f1 drivers are always bizarre

[elfin siren]

1997 European Grand Prix depicting the Collision between Williams Villeneuve and Ferrari Schumacher

Michael was stripped from his 2nd Position of the Drivers World Champions as a result of the Incident, Giving Williams a 1-2 Drivers World Champions Finish

[desert plover]

its crazy how good williams was from 1991-1997 and 1998 and onward was just completely garbage, never the same

early 2000s were good but not as good as it was during the 1990s

[elfin siren]

They may feel Slow but sometimes they will find Good Pace

[past drift]

in that timeframe they were works renault team and had newey

[mighty ginkgo]

probably because adrian newey left the team and all

[paper fossil]

head took a while to restructure the technical makeup

in an effective way

you mess up the new regulations and all of a sudden are years behind so it is in that context very understandable

[paper fossil]

i mean even then williams still finished in top 5 of every wcc from 1998 to 2005

to add to missed opportunities in 2001-2003

but those were particularly competitve years for them

it more mirrors the cooled period after they won at least one of the world championships in 3 consecutive years from 1980-1982

and only won 2 races from 1983-1984

[desert plover]

yeah probably why it wasn't so good thereafter...

[desert plover]

The Jaguar logo on the engine cover looks fantastic tbh

[paper fossil]

Must say it is impossible to argue Fisichella is a better performing driver than Trulli at any point post 1998

Wurz is closer to Fisichella in 99 than 98 and Trulli’s gaps to Panis improve

Very strange he wasn’t much faster than such a poor qualifier (Wurz)

[hardy ravine]

he should have been disqualified from 1994 also

i am listening to luciano burti's beyond the grid. i havent properly seen his crash, i saw it now and man, it's scary. the tyre barriers failed. it's a miracle he got out alive. it's scarier than grosjean's crash

[paper fossil]

Why

If they had any reason to disqualify him in 1994 they definitely would have

The FIA and Stewards were handing out incredibly draconian penalties all season

Heck it continued into 1995 like he got a suspended race ban for his defensive masterclass against Hill in damp conditions at Spa

[hardy ravine]

they literally found launch control in the benetton

and what about his tactics at adelaide

[paper fossil]

legally speaking this isn't even contestable because they didn't find any proof it was being used

it strikes me odd that one bad hill start is the point to which people start having serious doubts about the benetton

most of michaels starts in the first part of the season are average

[hardy ravine]

and they removed the fuel filter which caused the jos verstappen incident

[paper fossil]

they didn't

the fuel rig supplier did

they even sent a whole letter to max explaining this

[hardy ravine]

and adelaide

[paper fossil]

even damon has later admitted his move was late and poor judgement

if he had backed out he would have won the race easily and become world champion

we will ignore the race ban for overtaking on the formation lap and then the clerk of the course and stewards totally screwing up the penalty that michael was to serve

they even said you can serve it later on and did and he still got dsq'd

this banned him from 2 extra races for no necessary reasons

also the dubious way they calculated plank wear on the weekend of its frist use at spa

which cost michael victory

[hardy ravine]

what was dubious about that?

[paper fossil]

the rules stipulated that if it was worn in places by more than 1mm it had to be taken off the car and weighed

if it was less than either 90-95% (from memory) of the original weight then it was deemed illegal

the plank at spa never got taken off

they just straight up banned him for gouges to his plank caused by off track excursions

add to that the missed italian and portuguese gp's it totally changed the picture of season where williams now had a faster car

i mean they should have won again in jerez on pure pace but michael managed to get ahead on the stops like usual after some issues williams had

[limber furnace]

Beyond the sounds, what made the V10 era so exciting and special?

[hollow lake]

It was just ferrari dominance during that era, F1 in general is exciting regardless of car specs

[oblique dock]

Even though 2003 proved to be an exciting and memorable season, not to mention 2005 being the year that Renault and Alonso scored their first world championships together?

2000 also saw Hakkinen and Schumacher go head to head once more, with Schumacher finally winning his first title with Ferrari

[mighty ginkgo]

2001 spa?

[hardy ravine]

yeah

[mighty ginkgo]

oh yeah i saw that one on f1 channel, it was insanely scary

because the car got embedded and was like half flipped iirc

[idle gale]

Japan 1991. The race where the Ferrari 643 turned into a "horrible truck" due to a failure with the shock absorbers

[south tree]

It might be a truck, but it’s a helluva beautiful truck

[mighty ginkgo]

The image feels so defined and the track so smooth for its time

[idle gale]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyL8oZY3z2A&ab_channel=AidanMillward

[desert plover]

I'm pretty sure it was a pretty bumpy circuit for the 1990s

Especially Turns 3, 4 and 5, the Esses...

[idle gale]

Michael in the Sauber C17. Albeit in a test

[mighty ginkgo]

yeah

[past drift]

was that kind of testing he did to choose the team for his brother to join F1?

livery wise it resembles the C16 a lot more

[distant garnet]

Question,was it common for teams in the 90s to use engines from suppliers that have quitted the year prior?

You know, i was thinking,wouldn't be possible for McLaren in 93' to reuse or reporpuse the 92' Honda V12 for their car?

[marble vector]

this picture makes me smile.

[oblique dock]

I don’t think it would be possible considering Honda left F1 due to the bubble economy bursting back in Japan.

And for Mclaren to continue using the RA122E would mean Honda continuing their work with Mclaren in F1, which would negatively affect them in the midst of Japan’s economic situation

And I should mention that the economy bursting was also a reason why the Yamaha OX99-11 never made it to production

[distant garnet]

Mugen Honda was there

[oblique dock]

Well, yes, but I don’t think the RA122E would be rebadged as a Mugen-Honda engine and have Mugen-Honda engineers be present at Mclaren

The thought of Mclaren continuing to use the RA122E would be unrealistic, and in a way, impractical, considering the V12 was heavier than the Ford HB engine

And secondly, I doubt it would be competitive for a second year running

[distant garnet]

But still at least more powerful than the Ford and maybe more reliable than the Lamborghini V12?

[oblique dock]

Possibly, considering the RA122E managed to produce over 740 horsepower

You have a fair point there

But still, continuing to use Honda power even after Honda left the sport (despite mugen honda being present) doesn’t seem right.

[past drift]

they could have gone to mugen instead of honda as a transition engine, would need to see the specs of the v10 footwork used

[paper fossil]

The V12 was already a mistake the idea of using it without any factory support and thus development during the year would be an insult to McLaren

[past drift]

wasn't it Senna who pushed for a V12?

instead of the V10

[paper fossil]

I think it was Steve Nichols who was supportive of the step to begin with

Before he left for Ferrari in the aftermath of 1989

Come to think of it the only Mugen Honda deal would be on the V10 that was by then a couple years old

So the V12 I doubt was an option to begin with

[past drift]

the design yes, but apparently it was rated at 720 bhp at 13200 rpm in 1993. which is still some 40 more than the Cosworth HB

[paper fossil]

That is like still 60 or 40 hp down on Renault

Heavier and no support from Honda just Mugen Honda as a tuner

[past drift]

well, yes but the Renault was a mirage for McLaren

[paper fossil]

People forget but McLaren had the best chassis in 93 the issue was they didn’t have parity with Benetton until mid season, didn’t have familiarity with running the active system and their development budget was cut

Because they were paying Senna 1 million every world championship event

Williams did know how to run active and because of the power from the Renault could run more wing

[past drift]

but it was more sensible in terms of handling wasn't it

Prost struggled with that early season

[paper fossil]

Even then if you look at the latter half of the year McLaren were out developing them

[past drift]

and then they went with a french manufacturer that was making a V10

shame Ron couldn't see that Peugeot was nearlyu not as involved as Renault to develop their engine

him or whoever was the engine bloke at McLaren then

Oatley probably

[paper fossil]

Doubt it was Oatley

Probably David North

And Boudy of PS

That car did okay in 1994 but of course McLaren were not going to accept that they had just lost the best driver in the world and that was the reason they weren’t winning at least a few races

Is Hakkinen/Brundle really a good enough line up no probably not

[past drift]

they also had quite a bit of DNFs, 7 engine related ones in the races

[paper fossil]

Yes well

I think initially because of a flywheel

And then some other niggles

Jabouille was of constant annoyance to them too

Trying to shoehorn Peugeot drivers into the car

[past drift]

I heard the Peugeot compared to the Renault was like you said about the Mugen. Heavier and less power

[paper fossil]

Alliot etc

[past drift]

haha ye fucking Alliot

[paper fossil]

By 97 though Peugeot had a decent engine

That they then proceeded to spend no money on for the following 3 seasons

[past drift]

yeah, clearly the Jordan in 97 was fire

[paper fossil]

Just when the new regulations dictated the importance of weight at the rear of the car more than power

Which is why it is always laughable that Peugeots response to Prosts criticism is their power output

[past drift]

Just when Prost took them :]

[paper fossil]

But yeah the thing is as heavy as it was a few years ago and the packaging is horrendous

[past drift]

shame, Prost's best season was their first... with the Mugen

which they exchanged with Jordan... who went on to win a race the year after (ok, with a fair bit of luck for that first win)

then they lost Trulli to Jordan

😔

a big shame, it could have been a great industrial success

[paper fossil]

and it was a Ligier car

the only reason I think it did that well is because of Bridgestone though

[hardy ravine]

luciano burti says that the 2001 prost didnt have power steering

[river cave]

wouldn't surprise me, the team was on it's deathbed and would've compounded the car's poor performance

look at Jenson at Malaysia in 2001; car's power steering failed and he was nowhere

[river cave]

I mean

they were attempting to make an All-French powerhouse team

the main issue always was trying to get multiple different French companies to work together, while securing continuous French government support

there's a reason why Renault of the 1980's never won a world title, and why the Prost team never got anywhere

[paper fossil]

like a lot of his 2001 then

because the Benetton was horrendous most of the year

Fernando Alonso scalped them a few times early on in qualifying

which was already impressive

[marble vector]

1987 mclaren

i have left my first message in this channel, therefore i go

[past drift]

the support just had to be through facilitating connections, not money backing

[past drift]

that’s because of internal politics

also renault back then was a public company, more fragile to public opinion

[hardy ravine]

yeah they even fired prost after 1983 even though he did well

[hardy ravine]

2001 benneton was bad also

[paper fossil]

they fired him because of his criticism of the internal components of the turbocharger

[hardy ravine]

it was really unreliable tbh

[paper fossil]

i mean there is also that thing with Larrousses wife which is alleged but we won't go into that

blessing in disguise really because although Tambay says he thinks the 1984 car was quick enough with the level of driver like Prost to win multiple gp it still had reliability issues

he'd have likely had another 1983 season

or one similar to 81-82

[past drift]

yes clearly

[hardy ravine]

The Tyrrell 019, the first car with a raised nose

[distant garnet]

"Raised nose"

[paper fossil]

Yes?

high-nose

elevated nose

Etc

I think the 019 should give a lot of its credit to Migeot as much as Postlethwaite

[past drift]

its touted as a Harvey thing only?

[paper fossil]

I think people perceive Harvey as aerodynamics

Along with a lot of other things so it moulds him into the main genius of that car and many others

But Migeot did some neat things like aero mapping which potentially allowed it to be as good as it could be

Let down by funding, engine and tyres

I think

[desert plover]

Harvey and Jean-Claude Migeot probably

Atleast thats what it says online

[paper fossil]

“It's impossible to apportion how much of the 019's [Tyrrell] performance advantage was due to its aerodynamics and how much was down to aeromapping, because they were inseparably intertwined. Several technical directions were taken with the car in order to support the aeromap program. The move to a single front damper was made in order to separate the heave and roll stiffness of the front axle. The fundamental problem that we were trying to fix was that drivers want the car to be comfortably neutral with perhaps a trace of understeer in high-speed corners but want it to be ‘pointy’ for low-speed corners and chicanes.” - Nigel Beresford
…
“Aerodynamically, these were pretty much mutually exclusive requirements, because the former required a nice rearward aerodynamic centre of pressure whereas the latter required a forward aero balance. Migeot's brilliance was that he created in aeromapping a tool to predict the aero balance of the car at various rakes and ride heights, and in the mechanical packages of 018 and 019 Harvey created the implement to exploit this ability.”
…
“This was done by adjusting the stiffness and travel of the front and rear axles, via springs, packers and ride heights. The car would be set up with a relatively high rake so that at low speeds it had the ‘pointy’ turn-in that the drivers needed to be able to attack chicanes and low speed corners. At speed the car would settle on to the front packers and lose rake as the rear continued to heave down, thus moving the centre of pressure rearwards and giving the driver the benign high speed aero balance that he wanted. The mono-shock front suspension meant we could independently adjust the front vertical stiffness without making the roll stiffness unpleasantly stiff for kerb strikes or riding chicanes or hurting the tyre performance. You can't really credit the 019's performance purely to the high nose; as with many things, it was much more subtle than that.”

[past drift]

ohh interesting

[hardy ravine]

the first car with active suspension, the lotus 92, was in 1983 right?

wait was it the lotus 92?

ok yes it is for both questions

[paper fossil]

the work of Peter Wright yeah

Dernie was the one who made it happen at Williams later on

[distant garnet]

Yes

Though,Williams was the team who really understood and used it as it could be intended for maximum performance earlier than others

[hardy ravine]

Williams also first tried it out in 1988 right?

[elfin siren]

Niki Lauda in McLaren Car

Guess the Year

[merry remnant]

82?

[desert terrace]

83 I think

82 was ground effects

[merry remnant]

Well the MP4/1 was used in 1981, 1982, and 1983

Could be any of the 3 years

[desert terrace]

Wait I think it's the '84 McL

Because it has the shovel rear wing

It's probably Dallas 1984 then

Oh I was actually right lmao

[merry remnant]

So his 3rd championship winning car then

[elfin siren]

His Final Championship to claim that Year

[idle gale]

By half a point, mind you

When Alain tried to push his car across the line after running out of fuel on the last lap

[hardy ravine]

If he had given up in Austria...

[distant garnet]

Actually Williams tried it in 1987

And it was a great help for them, because they could run a more aggressive aerodynamic setup while maintaining the car as close as possible to the ground

They had to ditch it for 1988 till bringing it back in 1992 due to the active suspension having issues as well as the increased weight from the electronics and the underpowered Judd engine

[past drift]

dont forget Lotus in 87 tried it again, with better results

[paper fossil]

they ran it in 1988

it just wasn't very good

[distant garnet]

Yeah,i know.
But still in a very archaic way

[paper fossil]

i am still shocked they got beat by leyton house to 6th

everyone else above had a turbo so fair

but poor really

[distant garnet]

They only used it to maintain ride height stable and not as a aerodynamic element

[paper fossil]

mansell was outstretching himself to the ability of the car too often

as just a na engine i think the judd gets unfairly shat on

williams had other problems

losing dernie to lotus was one

[distant garnet]

Well,given that the March 881 had the work of Adrian Newey (even if he wasn't a big figure in F1 yet), it totally had a best overall package to Williams

Williams had what today would be the Ferrari 2019-20 treatment

[paper fossil]

it set the template

as for the pure pace over the season

i doubt it

williams left points on the table

[distant garnet]

The FW12 totally looks boxy

[paper fossil]

it was like 0.5% faster as it turns out

not shocking

added to that mansell and patrese is just far better than capelli and gugelmin

[paper fossil]

it was supposed to be doing the low line engine for 88

that the mp4/4 did

which is what pissed them off so much when it was found out it had to put nakajima in if it even wanted a customer deal in addition with mclaren

but that all had to change of course

[distant garnet]

Seeing the stats,damn
Mansell had 7 consecutive retirements at the start of the season

[paper fossil]

yeah i just think it is a team completely demoralised by losing honda and not keeping itself knitted together

that prevents them beating the highest place na team

actually benetton had v8's in 1988 didn't they

from what i remember byrne and other people weren't that impressed by that first ford v8

[distant garnet]

Yep,it was the Cosworth DFR which had more horsepower than the Judd by 20/30hp

Though Benetton could've maintained that V6T TEC engine for 1988

[past drift]

yes they already ditched their turbo V6 by 88, and thus were the highest NA outfit that year

[paper fossil]

Ford ditched them yes

Benetton wanted to continue with the GBA iirc

[distant garnet]

From wiki
''When the FIA announced that turbos would be banned after 1988, Ford made the decision to halt development of the V6 Ford TEC turbocharged engine used in the B188's predecessor the B187, and instead concentrated on the development of an engine for the new 3.5L rules. As Benetton were under contract to run the Ford engine (a contract they did not wish to break), the teams designers were forced to design a car to take the naturally aspirated V8 rather than the turbocharged V6.''

[past drift]

makes sense, if you can get a headstart rather than maybe doing better than in 87 with the same engine

well, in the end they did do better than in 87, with a new 3.5L engine

well, new. idk how new the DFR is compared to the DFV

[distant garnet]

Really new

[past drift]

how new is the HB compared to that

its not just an evolution is it

[distant garnet]

The DFV is a engine from the 60s that got a lot of updates through the years

The HB series just came a season after Benetton brought the DFR

[past drift]

ah yes the HB arrives in 1990

but HB is a totally new architecture it seems. 75 degree angle compared to 90 before

[distant garnet]

1989 exactly

At the 7th round

[past drift]

oh ok, it is still tagged as the DFR for some reason on my source

yet "Benetton finally launches its B189. Rory Byrne designed an evolution of the B188 that made even better use of the integration of the air intakes above the sidepods. The gearbox was still reversed. The suspension was pull rods at the front, push rods at the rear. This "chubby" looking machine was armed with the new 75° Ford-Cosworth V8 that delivered 630 horsepower. Only Sandro Nannini drove it, Emmanuele Pirro being content with the B188."

[distant garnet]

Well,it was pretty common in the 80s and 90s for teams to use different engine configurations or versions in the same season

I remember something about Renault testing two different versions of the EF engine during the 1984 season

[idle gale]

Michael Schumacher and Mick Doohan

[round swift]

We need this with Mick Schumacher and Jack Doohan

[mighty ginkgo]

imagine mick schumacher has a kid called jack

[idle gale]

Paul Stoddart's epic rant about the 2005 USGP (One of the most infamous races in modern F1)

https://youtu.be/bY7IdWpqYXI?feature=shared&t=47

[elfin siren]

McLaren in 1998, Their Last Time winning the Constructors Championship as they would wait for another 26 Years Later in 2024

Guess the Driver and the Circuit

[tired mica]

Mika Hakkinen in Suzuka?

[prime peak]

Mclaren in 1988 at Spa

Ayrton Senna

[desert plover]

Throughout 1988, Senna copied Prost's car settings, believing that the Frenchman better understood how to set up the McLaren. At Spa, Prost decided to change his car's settings at the last minute by removing some wings for more straight-line speed to gain an advantage. Unfortunately for the Frenchman, this negatively impacted his car's balance and handling during the race, whereas Senna, with Prost's original settings, reported no such issues.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/ayrton-senna-alain-prost-mclaren-fear-solution

[hollow lake]

Hakkinen @ Hockenheim

Hakkinheim

[hardy ravine]

mika?

and where?

the best f1 season in history ever was 1982.

[past drift]

McLaren's?

[desert plover]

nah mclarens best ever season without a doubt was 1980

[past drift]

I wonder how much of Hoshino's performance at the 76 Japanese GP was due to his Bridgestone tyres, he was the only one with them, it was their first race and he was racing an older Tyrrell 007

but then he is japanese, so he probably had extreme knowledge of that track

[paper fossil]

Look at his career in Japan though

The guy is winning championships in the 90s

Pretty sure he is top 3 the year Ralf wins the Nippon

[hardy ravine]

no.

[hardy ravine]

not mclaren's, the best f1 season in history

[hardy ravine]

https://www.instagram.com/p/DFYZtmpBCNk/?next=%2F

[past drift]

oh, well if you can find one tense like that but without drivers dying or having career ending injuries

😶

[hardy ravine]

yeah 1982 is tragic. villeneuve and paletti died, pironi had a career-ending crash.
but there were 11 winners, 9 winners in 9 consecutive races, the person who won the championship only one one race that season.
then there's the drivers' strike in south africa and the last three laps of monaco.

[past drift]

2012 is also quite wild

and less tragic

[hardy ravine]

true.

[hardy ravine]

alain prost's debut season!

[oblique dock]

Yeah. He was 3rd in his last ever season in single seaters

Let’s not forget Hoshino won the 1992 24 Hours of Daytona with Toshio Suzuki, Masahiro Hasemi, and Nissan

[past drift]

top

[elfin siren]

David Coulthard making his F1 Debut with Williams in 1994 Spanish Grand Prix

[desert plover]

how come not?

[hardy ravine]

they finished like 7th in the championship that year

guess the driver - https://www.instagram.com/p/DFbEmYChMYz/

f1history__

did you recognise him?
.
.
🏁Follow @f1history__ if you love F1!
.
.
#f1 #formula1 #formulaone #motorsport #racing #jeanalesi #f1fans

Likes

415

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[past drift]

the hand position is a dead giveaway

[oblique dock]

Not to mention the onboard of a 412T2

[past drift]

didn't watch the video

[paper fossil]

The old school 10-2

[past drift]

as you learn at the driving school

[hardy ravine]

yeah... alesi.

[desert plover]

yeah exactly

[paper fossil]

Because the M29 was poo

[desert plover]

haha same with ferrari!

[distant garnet]

Can't blame McLaren

Pretty much everyone was running the Cosworth DFV (except Ferrari,Renault and Alfa Romeo)

And Ferrari being Ferrari and screwing themselves with the ground effect with a V12 car

[paper fossil]

I mean Williams, Brabham and Ligier were regular challengers

all running the double four valve

hardly much of an excuse

their understanding of the seal created by the skirts was just poor

this is why Coppuck didn't last long once Dennis had bought the team

[past drift]

if it was a normal v12 it would have been ok, but it was a flat-12

[paper fossil]

But even with a turbo in 1981 they still had an overweight car with nothing like the structural rigidity the following years 126C2 would have

Also they actually run okay in some 1980 races

Jody has completely given up by mid season sure

[past drift]

Gilles never gives up

[paper fossil]

Just the same thing as 1981 really with a weaker 2nd driver

Not in terms of ability

But bothering to turn up

Jody beats Didier for ability every day

That is for sure

[past drift]

Pironi was maybe more technically skilled than Villeneuve, but slower overall?

[paper fossil]

Depends who you listen to

[past drift]

I listen to you 😇

[paper fossil]

If you look at it statistically then he was nowhere near Gilles in qualifying

[past drift]

one thing is for sure, his 81 season was trash

[paper fossil]

Worse than Jody I’m pretty sure

By like 0.001%

And 1982 he was as far back

Worse in fact

He was a 1% slower

In races people say he could be as good

There is some things to support that like in the races where Ferrari somehow leap to the front because their poor handling is not yet evident with big fuel loads then he can be close to Gilles

Or about to start challenging him until a car failure

I haven’t particularly watched these races for a while so idk

It might easily be Gilles just completely mismanaging his races rather than being slower

[paper fossil]

And Jody has a healthy 1979 gap

To stand on

Like 0.2% which is way closer than it would be in 1980-1982

[paper fossil]

Imola, Zolder, Silverstone, Monza etc

I think the majority of the 1982 qualifying gap could come from Brazil where Pironi is recovering from his stuck throttle crash and resulting knee injury at Paul Ricard testing

Actually scrap that he’s like 1.3 seconds slower than him in just the opening two rounds

Like he’s 1.2 seconds slower in same San Marino GP he would go on to challenge him for

Honestly I’d need deep context on possible misfires and issues because they had the two long sessions format

Certainly Villeneuve had elite running pace though and I don’t think I can deny this

It is just as a driver he’s completely useless for a grand prix team

He’d never perform a season like Alain Prost did in 1986 for example

Not even anything like Sennas 1991 season a driver who probably had less ability to rein in his pace for the greater good

But learnt it I suppose after Prosts departure

[past drift]

he still managed 2 titles after Prost left

or maybe i misunderstood what you meant

[paper fossil]

No not at all

[past drift]

yeah it's odd, only in USA West was Pironi quite close to Villeneuve in quali

[paper fossil]

Though I think he still almost screwed up 1990 with drives like Brazil, Mexico, Spain and Japan

The last of which is just him being very annoying

And he does also randomly crash from the lead in Australia

[paper fossil]

Doubled ended rear wing idk

Villeneuve was all over the place in that race

And finished 3rd before DSQ yes

[past drift]

yeah true, he was also slower than "usual" in Q

well he missed his braking at T1 quite dramatically

i know it's Gilles but still

[paper fossil]

Not sure the merits to that device at the back of the car

Forghieri said it was something so blatant to get a reaction basically

But he still thought they’d remain 3rd

[past drift]

were they in the rules or they twisted it to get the dsq?

[paper fossil]

They were all fed up of the FOCA teams running underweight cars with false ballast

Like the water cooled brakes

In Brazil

The funny thing is Renaults protest in Brazil just being against the cars in front of them

[paper fossil]

The rear wing was like totally illegal and sketchy lmao

Even if it is wasn’t specifically stated I think they rightly disqualified that monstrosity

[past drift]

it could have been legal die to a loophole, they accept the result but ban it immediately after

a bit like the fan car, except they banned it for the next season

[paper fossil]

Potentially a wasted race

Not that I think Gilles had the ability to hold it together

I mean he’d won the race there in 1979 so it is not completely out of the question

Standard non turbo win on a street circuit where the power delivery kills the tyres and also you

Probably Michelins too helping Lauda

[paper fossil]

Okay well Forghieris view is that it was legal but was almost breaking the spirit of the regulations

It for example respected the maximum size

Which was about 110cm

[hardy ravine]

wasn't it made in protest of the water cooling brakes of non-works teams?

[paper fossil]

^

[hardy ravine]

sorry forgot to read chat

[distant garnet]

https://www.instagram.com/p/DFcwDZXMaPH/?igsh=QkFFcnY0RHU3bw%3D%3D

fdataanalysis

Did you know that in ‘01-‘03, some F1 teams had automatic gear shifts? 🤖

Follow @fdataanalysis for more technical content! ✅

Likes

3073

Instagram

[distant garnet]

https://youtu.be/aRkDXqeIMQM

[distant garnet]

https://www.instagram.com/p/DFfGFikNcjI/?igsh=QkFIS1Vwb3pPXw%3D%3D

formula_aerodynamics

An oldie goldie from the old box: Ayrton Senna and the High-Nose McLaren Experiment at Monza in 1990… 👀😮

In August 1990, McLaren conducted a private test at Monza, introducing a high-nose design on their MP4/5B, inspired by Tyrrell’s innovative 019 model.

The design aimed to enhance aerodynamic efficiency by allowing better airflow beneath the...

Likes

14727

Instagram

[past drift]

boomerang wing boomerang wing

[desert terrace]

w h a

[hardy ravine]

which car?

https://www.instagram.com/p/DFjDF2cNN1x/

f1racinglegends

Onboard with Howden Ganley (BRM). Hearing Jackie Stewart narrating his lap around the Nürburgring is mesmerizing.

🏎️💨🇳🇿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

#F1RacingLegends #f1 #formula1 #formulaone #motorsport #racing #grandprix #motorsportphotography #motorsportimages #historicracing #jackiestewart #howdenganley #nurburgring #nürburgring #nordschleife

Likes

1809

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it's called the green hell for a reason

[past drift]

thats the Tyrrell 012 in 1983

[hardy ravine]

guess the circuit (weirdest in f1 history):

[last verge]

Avus

[hardy ravine]

correct

[hollow lake]

Saudi is marginally weirder

[fleet wigeon]

Avus circuit

[oblique dock]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKzwc1JGLLA

[idle gale]

Kimi could've gotten the championship in 2005. That was until...

[past drift]

he lacked reliability a lot

[hardy ravine]

correct

[hardy ravine]

yeah

[paper fossil]

Only retired from the lead with a mechanical twice and one was arguably his fault

[past drift]

add a non scoring finish in Malaysia, only 1pt in Australia

[fleet wigeon]

Another factor is the no changing tire rule from 2005

[past drift]

what did it change for him, who had the same tyres as Alonso?

[distant garnet]

Well,the rule stated that the drivers had to use the same tyre from the qualifying during the whole race

I think Kimi's tyres had a small flat spot from the qualifying or during the race which caused vibrations to a point his front suspension broke

https://youtu.be/eAeiecmRyGk

[past drift]

he had a flat spot during the race for sure

[distant garnet]

https://youtu.be/lUrnQnjlYnk

[past drift]

the whole country made fun of him, poor Jean

[paper fossil]

Raikkonen got a flat spot while trying to lap Villeneuves Sauber

it is totally self inflicted and I've never had much sympathy for him

Webber really should have won that race considering he had the most ideal starting strategy on the grid and just needed to be ahead of the Toyotas at the start

also because Mark was excellent at the Nurburgring

[past drift]

big shame Williams couldn't win anything in 2005

probably their chassis deficit started showing by then

[oblique dock]

https://youtu.be/SZADNrySyiA?feature=shared

[idle gale]

The Judd engines. Arguably the main customer engines of their time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgRnOn_7ppI&ab_channel=AidanMillward

[hardy ravine]

you had to see the the reaction of the benneton mechanics

the lotus 56, the only f1 car to race with a gas turbine engine.

[paper fossil]

makes sense why

it was terrible

was the first car that Colin had to enter under WWR at Monza though

a year after the disastrous weekend involving Jochen

[past drift]

if it could work for the indy 500, it could never work in f1

unless with a CVT 🤔

[paper fossil]

It is just like the 4 wheel drive thing though

That ended up on a 500 car too

Clearly they wanted to do something beyond the standard DFV that everyone was using

Nice trick but beyond wet running I think it was just poor on track

1971 is a interesting time for Lotus because as much as Fittipaldi was not very good as it turns out he was basically injured and refused to tell anyone about it

So my conclusions on him always have to factor in such events

But regardless I think he’s lucky he was there and stayed to begin with and 1973 just sort of illustrates the point

Spent the whole year moaning while being soundly handled by a new teammate

[distant garnet]

Well,at the time the gas turbine was able to pull 500-600hp in a time where engines where doing only around the 450hp area

The issue is that the engine didn't have a gearing

[full musk]

Wow I saw a recap show of like the 96 italian gran prix and it is sick

So hardcore I love it. The cars are sooo loud.

Free F1 channel comes through in the clutch

[hardy ravine]

they retired 3 laps from the end i guess

[hardy ravine]

really? didn't know

[idle gale]

Francois Cevert during practice at Walkins Glen. The race where he had his infamous fatal accident

[idle gale]

Fernando's Minardi days

[raw vortex]

Bahrain 2005

Warmest race that happend on f1

Having a record of : 42.5C

[desert terrace]

Black nosecone Ferrari?

[past drift]

Pope John-Paul II had just died

[desert terrace]

Oh, I see

[hardy ravine]

rip. he died during qualifying right?
tyrrell should have won the 1973 constructors' championship

jackie stewart retired early, with 99 race starts

[past drift]

yes, although it was just called practice then

[hollow lake]

Bruh

Imagine giving your life for this sport and it was just practise

Gutting

[hardy ravine]

he died due to the improper fastening of the armco barrier

[fleet wigeon]

There's tarso Marques

Which got replaced by alex yoong

[paper fossil]

yeah because Marques had 0 money

like the only reason he was picked was because he was preferred to morbidelli and the likes of gene and mazzacane either lost their backing or took it elsewhere

gene far as i'm aware lost his telefonica sponsorship

couldn't get any worse than alex yoong though

big fan of him being like 4% slower than alonso in race trim at suzuka

[idle gale]

You know, it was extremely lucky that Riccardo Patrese didn't get launched higher into the air than he did. Otherwise there was a high chance that he would've hit the overhead gantry

[willow gorge]

I always worry about those 'overhead gantries'

if a car ever goes airborne

Wouldn't be a pretty sight to see a car slammed into one

[mighty ginkgo]

Yep

i believe webber slammed into a smaller advertisement board during the valencia incident but i don’t think there was metal

[idle gale]

There was actually a freak accident where a car did went airborne and slammed into the overhead gantry at Fuji Speedway. Not in F1 but in Japanese F3. The driver's name was Takashi Yokoyama. He unfortunately didn't survive the accident

[desert plover]

Paul Warwick (Derek Warwick's brother) testing the Arrows A11 in 1989

Lewis Hamilton driving the McLaren-Mercedes MP4-19B V10 in a Testing Session 2004

Ralf Schumacher testing the McLaren MP4-11 in 1996

Cool helmet...

[past drift]

yeah these bell helmets in the early 80s slapped

[paper fossil]

think that is a simpson bandit helmet

driver in the car is norbert haug

yes the very same one.

[past drift]

ohhh ye maybe. i think Elio had Simpson on his helmet

[past drift]

based

there was also that Bell worn by Ickx in 79 that’s also aggressive

[stark bolt]

i love old helmet designs

[oblique dock]

It’s a damn shame that the racing world lost Paul Warwick so soon…..

[paper fossil]

yeah i've asked about that

talent alone he should have got to formula one but beyond that you can't exactly plot a course for his career

in terms of brothers it was probably a great shame Marc Gene got to F1 but his brother Jordi didn't

[oblique dock]

Definitely. We wouldn't be sure if he'd start off with a backmarker like Brabham or a midfielder like Footwork Arrows in 1992

[past drift]

knowing his name, he could probably get a nice word from his brother to jackie oliver

[oblique dock]

Possibly

[idle gale]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCow0a3Dosw&ab_channel=AidanMillward

[idle gale]

The 7UP Jordan

[desert plover]

7up and Pepsi haha

[distant garnet]

7up is from PepsiCo

[oblique dock]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9HXeJZOXlo&pp=ygUXIOmItOacqOS6nOS5hemHjCAgMTk5MCA%3D

[desert plover]

I thought it was from Keurig

"Pepsi was more popular in Japan than 7up."

[hardy ravine]

jordan 191 in japan?

[hardy ravine]

this is one more of the weird sponsorship deals of the 1990s, just like simtek and MTV in 1995. MTV didn't pay simtek, but provided a slot for simtek's sponsors to display advertisements in MTV's TV channel

throwback to the time the bin laden family sponsored williams during their early years

they had a lot of saudi sponsors at that time aside from the bin laden group. their title sponsor was saudi airlines, or saudia

[desert plover]

yeah look at the pic above

[mighty ginkgo]

wait what’s MTV again

[hardy ravine]

music television, a tv channel that used to show music videos.

[hardy ravine]

the 7up looks better on it

[hardy ravine]

wait is this sarcasm?

[mighty ginkgo]

nope, i’m just young

[hardy ravine]

i'm 14.

[desert plover]

I dont mind the look, I think anything on that chassis would look good

[mighty ginkgo]

Oh i’m older but uhh yeah no idea how i didnt know that bef

[idle gale]

The irony of getting hit by the Safety/Medical Car

[iron shadow]

i miss michael schumacher

that's all

[hardy ravine]

https://www.instagram.com/p/DFyUMH-TjX6/

[desert plover]

Villeneuve should've went to McLaren for 1998...

[paper fossil]

that wasn't a thing

Jacques has said he had an offer for 1999

it got suggested again for 2001 but Coulthard's peformances were fine

and then Jacques made a decision to stick to BAR when it was likely he would leave for Benetton

out of loyalty to Pollock

it was a 3 year deal with performances clauses that despite having a pretty poor car in 01 were likely met with podium finishes

far as i know the only things that actually were suggested or explored were these

Damon Hill
Greg Moore
Michael Schumacher
Ralf Schumacher
Olivier Panis

the hill story is fairly known

he would only be paid for race wins and this was dennis way of saying to newey that he did offer damon the seat but he refused

Moore was an attempt to cater to the American market from Mercedes but Hakkinen decided to stay

M Schumacher had a Ferrari contract and their respective 97 peformances is never going to make him leave

R Schumacher as far I know was just a suggestion that was never really explored and Panis had some brief convo but dude is damaged goods so not happening

[desert plover]

For the 1999 season I meant. It was in an article but in french

http://www.mypitstop.fr/jv-world/AUTO-HEBDO-40ANS.pdf

"I actually received an offer from McLaren," he said. "Adrian Newey had called me to ask me not to sign with BAR and to join him instead," said Villeneuve. "He liked me because he had seen what I could do with his cars at Williams and there was enormous respect between us."

Let me call Newey real quick and see if this is legit

[past drift]

he didnt mention it in his book at least

while his resent over the Hill case is

[river cave]

Greg Moore...

really wish we saw him make the switch

[hardy ravine]

really interesting book though

[past drift]

definitely recommend that read!

[paper fossil]

Rather he didn’t

He was very inconsistent

Quick for sure

But a guy who had like all his ability rested in things like car control where a lot of his driving would look amazing and he would pull it off on occasion

His real career trajectory was a few more seasons in Penske in CART and then likely moving to Nascar

I don’t think he’d have been better than Gil de Ferran so winning a title unlikely too

[hardy ravine]

i saw an image of a crash that really traumatises me. it's helmut koininigg's crash at watkins glen at 1974. he got decapitated by the barriers. his head was literally in his helmet. it's so traumatising to see. i suggest you don't see it.

[oblique dock]

1974

[paper fossil]

overshadowed by the championship decider

between Fittipaldi, Regazzoni and Scheckter

Surtees I think got informed of it but I can't even remember if it is in the Motorsport Magazine race report at all

[desert plover]

I'm pretty sure François Cevert died at the circuit almost the same way

[past drift]

yes, give or take it was because of an armco barrier

[hardy ravine]

yeah, both improper fastening of barriers

[hardy ravine]

typo

[fleet wigeon]

Alonso and Marques

Fun fact: in the videogame f1 2001 Murray walker doesn't mention tarso Marques name whenever you finished different finish position or the starting grid

I was wondering why Murray didn't mention Marques name in the game

[high flume]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuCZBVq-DyM&list=PLAxIKpi1nYzPdwlECceclpLTagysEr-Wl

12 dnfs in 14 races 💀

[desert plover]

14 DNFs in 16 races 💀

[river cave]

Managed a podium despite running out of fuel

[desert plover]

Cause he pushed it lol

[mighty ginkgo]

mansell is overall one of the unluckiest drivers in f1 history

[river cave]

Chris Amon would like a word

[paper fossil]

^

[serene gull]

Did bro use chat gpt or did the inner chat gpt wake uo

Oh nvm

MB I'm slow

IGNORE THAT

Cba deleting it

[hardy ravine]

andrea de ceaseris' 1987 season: 15 dnfs out of 16 races

he only got that one finish because he pushed his car over the line in belgium after his car ran out of fuel on the last lap

[tribal silo]

de Cesaris had a lot of bad luck if we look in retrospect

because most of his seasons were with bad cars and he didn't crash that much

[desert plover]

Since he completed over 90% of the race distance at the Australian Grand Prix, he was 8

[desert plover]

Forti FG03

What a piece of junk lol

[oblique dock]

It was a mobile chicane

[idle gale]

Add Prost GP to that statement

[past drift]

only the 2000 model

the others at least could qualify well sometimes, or score points

sadly their biggest issue was what they wanted differently from the others, the engine

[river cave]

which ended up bankrupting them in the end anyway

[idle gale]

The English speaking broadcast, mostly BBC, had Fleetwood Mac

The Japanese broadcast had T-Square

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SC7jU4kTRc&ab_channel=pen

[past drift]

https://youtu.be/t64OrgT_WnY

and they had epic 3d intros

[desert terrace]

That start of Imola without Ratzenberger, then the restart of the race without Senna in it... and the cheery music... that stings

[wind jasper]

The Chain will always hit different for me

[distant garnet]

They even replicated it in the official SNES F1 games

https://youtu.be/bsWhtaX1aKM

[past drift]

super cool

[oblique dock]

And they performed it live

https://youtu.be/5zoMDMIri8Q?feature=shared

[high flume]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1zXscsAIsQ

[hardy ravine]

back when pre-qualifying existed 💀

[high flume]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maki_Engineering
Worst f1 team ever ???
Worse than life and Andrea moda ???

[paper fossil]

probably not

god this is the team that gave ganley a call

[past drift]

nah, they genuinely tried to take part. they just couldn't produce a chassis that was good enough

Andrea Moda is just???

[languid trout]

An italian mafia member trys to run a f1 team = Andrea Moda /s

[tacit nest]

Yeah. The overall structure was a mess. Can’t respect a team that try to kill one driver.

[river cave]

https://tenor.com/view/riddler-paul-dano-new-rockstars-does-he-know-gif-26833694

[strange stag]

https://youtu.be/yOCN8zRH_io?feature=shared

[distant garnet]

The first Ferrari driven by Schumi to fight for a title

[elfin siren]

Ralf Schumacher Big Crash in 2004 United States Grand Prix

His Crash led him to missed 6 Races of the 2004 Season

[strange stag]

He won Monaco in that year with that car

[idle gale]

A teenage Rubens with Ayrton

[distant garnet]

https://www.ddinstagram.com/reel/DGU2wGSyHlW/?igsh=X2xIdDFvSmxo

[stray onyx]

https://youtu.be/gbgML0CFZA8?si=24VcZn8mIFrMDfgn

Check out this video by Peter Brook (Make sure to show him some love :)

[hardy ravine]

i have heard this before

one of the best championship finales in f1 history is 1964 ngl

[elfin siren]

Some Niki Lauda Remembering Picture

[hardy ravine]

1950s f1 history is weird

[past drift]

haha ye

[mighty ginkgo]

Oh it’s Lauda’s 75th birthday today?

woahhh

[elfin siren]

Yes

[round swift]

wheres 2025 scheme`?

[tiny iron]

retro

[past drift]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/RXv0E8u1Ejk goes quite hard

[fleet wigeon]

Orange Mclaren

[quasi remnant]

there is a photo of a 1990 benetton in my physics book

very cool 👍

[oblique dock]

W

[empty edge]

Oop

[paper fossil]

Nannini

God knows what track it is

Hockenheim or Magny Cours would be my guesses

[desert plover]

Yeah i think it is the hockenheim

[past drift]

last with the very colourful benetton theme

isn’t it

[oblique dock]

Yeah. 1991 started the usage of Camel liveries

[paper fossil]

yeah the reason it started being less colourful is because the team wasn't being bankrolled by the family as much as it had been

Briatore already got the likes of sanyo and mobil 1 onto the car

and then RJ Reynolds having enough of Lotus and signing a big deal with Benetton in addition to a small one with Williams

[past drift]

old pic i took

[tribal silo]

Ligier was a favourite of mine

[hardy ravine]

prolly hockenhiem

[hardy ravine]

he deserved better

that helicopter crash

[idle gale]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWbfnn6IKNo&ab_channel=AidanMillward

[distant garnet]

Active Suspension, Traction Control, ABS, SemiAuto Transmission and Newey's aerodynamics

[hardy ravine]

if cvt came...

[distant garnet]

Also, adding drag reduction system thanks to the suspension

[desert plover]

Lotus 39 was originally intended for use in Formula One, to be powered by the Coventry Climax 1.5 litre flat-16 engine, but was later changed and raced in Tasman Series with a Climax 2.5 litre engine

[hidden drift]

Ralf Schumacher crashing into Barrichello, Australian Grand Prix 2002

[fleet wigeon]

Ralf Airlines

[idle gale]

Debut season, home race, points scorer

[hardy ravine]

he handled the pressure really well

[willow gorge]

none of ur business michael

tire saving technique

[past drift]

think it was Brundle saying that

[paper fossil]

It was Patrick Head actually

[past drift]

the mechanics must not have enjoyed the coming days after that 😬

[paper fossil]

Sacked if it is was Colin Chapman in charge

[idle gale]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRkhTPw_BtY&ab_channel=AidanMillward

[distant garnet]

No Ferrari?

[paper fossil]

that was a flat 12

although it was also termed as 180° v12 by some

[river cave]

Yeah Lauda's and Schekter's Ferrari's used flat 12's

They didn't go to the V12 until they dropped the turbos

[past drift]

you disagree with that terminology?

it wasn’t a boxer after all

[paper fossil]

It wasn’t a boxer no

The opposing pistons are on the same crankpin and move in the same direction

From an outward appearance it looks like a flat layout though

I take the view that technical wise Forghieri accepts the term Flat 12

Also the fact it was a very wide engine and much different from the conventional V12 despite taking infrastructure from a previous V12

[tribal silo]

https://realmofmotoringhistory.wordpress.com/2024/07/24/tom-pryce-the-welsh-dragon-y-ddraig-gymreig/

[paper fossil]

i always think brise stands out by far of the lost generation

Pryce was pretty good while with Williamson and Birrell it is really a guess at best

[past drift]

he had quite a good 75 season iirc, but aside from that idk him

[paper fossil]

He went unbeaten in qualifying and that included against future world champion Alan Jones

Bernie seems to agree he was the real deal

If you read Lost Generation by Tremayne my main takeaway is the Brise parts seem most genuine

There is also some ideal details like Tony Alcocks atheist funeral

"Tony Alcock's was the only athiest funeral I've ever been to. We all sat down, the undertaker eventually came in and said we could stand, then two minutes later said we could sit again and that was it" - Ian Flux

Pryce I think would have had at his peak been on the level of a Jones or Andretti

I am always staggered Tyrrell wanted to replace Stewart with Birrell potentially

So random

Clearly an Elf and Ford connection

I mean he was pretty good driver but there was far better on the market

Don’t mean to be rude but godsend Jody ended up being in their lead car

[tribal silo]

But Birrell was seen as a promising driver, he just had no money for the single-seaters

I have one of my articles speaking about it

I'll publish it soon, it's on the old page

[paper fossil]

Birrell got in cosy with Ford though

So there is a good reason to assume this relationship striking a chord

His results in EF2 are like okay

Chevron was a good builder and it was more some isolated events against the established status quo which caught attention

But I can see why he is omitted from the lost generation quite often

Tyrrell moved on to probably better targets far as a seat was concerned but of course it was to be a 2nd car with Cevert still around until his death at the final GP

So Gerry wouldn’t have been the natural team leader all is well for 74

There isn’t a solid amount about the whole of the discussions from any books or other material

I can’t say I’m enough educated on his career to say too much though certainly I’ve heard well about his mechanical understanding and hard work

I just don’t see Gerry being anywhere near the level Jody was in the 007 in 74

As basically a rookie effectively

First full season at least for Jody

[graceful crystal]

we never got to see just how good any of them wouldve been, but Pryce i think had the most "evidence" simply due to the increased time he spent before he was prematurely taken away. Would have been very interesting to see Pryce if he had got his move to Lotus in 78

[past drift]

he was in touted to go there instead of Peterson?

also hi, how goes

[graceful crystal]

yeah it was the most likely outcome until he was killed

i'm good just motoring through life tbh

[paper fossil]

Pryce kept getting linked with Lotus in previous years for agreed swaps

with Ronnie

eventually that happened between March for Nilsson instead in 76

when Chapman refused to pay Peterson for the whole year

presumably Pryce would have happened in 78 because of Ronnie's decreasing stock within Formula 1 in difficult 76 and 77 years but then again they dropped the whole idea of Arnoux once Peterson became available so idk

wonder how Tom would have felt about agreeing to all the things Ronnie had to

like having no spare car, no qualifying tyres and having to stay behind Andretti if both were circulating the track for a win

issue is Tom's stock in Formula 1 was falling away by the time of his death too

Colin usually liked to go back to people who he knew

it would fully depend on the deal being put together and the timing

the Ronnie thing was late on

[paper fossil]

I mean it is a by product of Ronnie wanting to leave that gets Pryce linked rather than Lotus actually wanting him

they try out a few people with the vacancy of Ickx too in 1975

Henton, Watson, Evans and Andretti even is a one off until Parnelli folds

then he does sign for them in 1976

i wonder how Patrese vs Pryce might have gone too

one thing for certain is that Alan Jones' career would have been much different

[tribal silo]

I'm sure Gerry wouldn't been on the same level as Jody, also Jody had more experience driving the third McLaren in some races, plus the F5000 background he already had

But I understand Birrell was highly rated by many, not only Ford, that's why they thought of him for that place

[graceful crystal]

This is not really true. He was still young for F1 standards then and having strong results for a deteriorating team. Such as running in 2nd the race before he died, in the previous year's car before blowing up. He did much better than Jarier in the previous year (76) who himself got some one off drives with Lotus (in 1978's carnage) before going to Tyrrell full time. Its hard to know if he would have accepted the terms Ronnie did at Lotus but it's also true that ronnie's deal was extremely late on which meant many things couldn't be negotiated in time

[paper fossil]

i've asked about

it was certainly true by then

there was a lot of early hype that faded away

he was in no doubt very good but the reasons he got linked with Lotus is all true

[paper fossil]

Jarier I'm pretty sure challenged for a win again at Interlagos in that same 76 season

in addition to having done so in 1975 and been on pole at Buneos Aires

Pryces finishes in the points got him the higher position in the world championship though

so I'm not sure he did much better really

both were very good in a promising car

[graceful crystal]

I respectfully disagree with you, but we could go to the ends of the earth citing specific races and sessions etc.

[paper fossil]

like otherwise they both hover around in the top 10

[graceful crystal]

Yeah they weren't exactly far apart

[paper fossil]

i mean there is a reason he ends up replacing peterson and then goes on to nearly win another race

in said appearance

[graceful crystal]

there's also a reason Pryce was the main choice for Peterson's seat before he died

[paper fossil]

reutemann was already signed though

[paper fossil]

nilssons

[graceful crystal]

the sad thing is that we won't be able to know

no Peterson's

in 78

[paper fossil]

well yes

but it was a leaving nilssons seat

[graceful crystal]

aye

[paper fossil]

anyway

he was a choice that is for sure

he'd have been ahead of Keegan and Arnoux

and probably Mass who was favourite until Peterson was available

it is whether Lotus make a decision so early in 1977 that ignores a contracted Ronnie at Tyrrell

i mean if both are available then Chapman would have gone with Ronnie I'm almost sure

for the reasons i've said above

Pryce is virtually just the best option of those available prior to Ronnie agreeing to all the No2 stuff and breaking from his 2 year Tyrrell deal

think the only other places he could have gone for 1978 was remaining at Shadow or Surtees

[tribal silo]

Peterson?

[paper fossil]

no Pryce

Peterson could have remained at Tyrrell or gone to Shadow or Williams

[tribal silo]

ahhh yes, Pryce could well have stayed at Shadow, after all they were race winners

[paper fossil]

well them being race winners is the reason Stuck went there

plus sponsorship

[tribal silo]

yes, and Regazzoni

[paper fossil]

i do like when Theodore bought Shadow

Theodore and Ensign overall is like the best rabbit hole in 70's-early 80's f1

[paper fossil]

Clay had reputation so yeah that was a no brainer

think the key part to the change there is basically Ambrosio leaving for Arrows which is why Patrese ended up there

who had been picked to appease Franco when Zorsi was removed

because he was Italian

[tribal silo]

Yes, it was a great team

and Arrows also ahd a great line up with Nilsson and Patrese

[paper fossil]

yes well

shame Nilsson had cancer

he was I think rightly not renewed by Lotus though

Chapman often had arguments with him

do wonder if Lotus really saw that as a stop gap that lasted longer than it needed to but of course in 1976 to 1977 they had no business going for the top drivers

only once the car delievered in 1977

[tribal silo]

I think so

[paper fossil]

did it turn Lotus back round to the status quo

[tribal silo]

It was a pity Bob Evans didn't stay

[paper fossil]

I like Henton

don't know much about the others

Andretti was the right choice though

[tribal silo]

Yes, to be number 1 Andretti was the right one and he deserved his championship

[paper fossil]

well yes

as the long after Ickx full time replacement

ideal the people they dropped in

[paper fossil]

to Chapmans logic yes I suppose

I do have to praise Andretti for the development of the Lotus 78

but the measures they took to stop Ronnie do stain 1978 for me

[tribal silo]

I think he was stronger than Peterson, even if he wasn't faster

[paper fossil]

in fact it costs them pole position from Watson at France that year

[tribal silo]

and I think he would would have always beaten Peterson in equal conditions

[paper fossil]

simply because Chapman refuses to let Ronnie do a lap

[tribal silo]

Peterson knew he would be the second driver

[paper fossil]

oh yes of course

but the measures are ridiculous for the time

and Andretti went on to be slower than Reutemann and Giacomelli

worse than both I think in those seasons too

[tribal silo]

Yes, it wasn't properly enhanced sometimes

[paper fossil]

i mean people talk about Gilles in 1979

with Jody

but it isn't the same

even at Italy Gilles basically refuses to accept the team order and Jody just decides to step up because he knew he would

1978 is pretty deliberate and Ronnie was such a cool customer and respectful of Mario he didn't care

obviously best option he had anyway so understandbale

[tribal silo]

At Ferrari the team orders were enforced by mid-season when Sheckter had an obvious advantage, plus Villeneuve's destrucutive tendencies made him lose points and commit mistakes.

[paper fossil]

it was only enforced when a championship could be won

which is why it never was enacted in San Marino 82

as much as Gilles thinks he was done wrong

that was just a weekend where Forghieri hadn't attended and Piccinini screwed up the communication

[tribal silo]

Peterson had more experience and was not so cash-prone and Lotus wanted the title as soon as possible, so Chapman decided to make sure Peterson wouldn't risk it

[tribal silo]

Sure it was, it was confusing

[paper fossil]

but even so

Gilles knew that team orders just weren't a thing for an isolated race

he was too naive to think of that

but he played it expecting there was no race on to a certain point in the race

otherwise I think he'd have beaten Pironi quite easily tbh

as much as I have a lot to say about Gilles his elite running pace is undeniable

[paper fossil]

it was purely because he felt Andretti had won it

having developed the cars

I am led to believe from what Roebuck has sort of said about it

a shame I think because it sort of coincides with Peterson finding his best form since 1974 again

the thing to say is an equal fight might have been irrelevant with his death at Monza anyway

amazing it was actually a fight at that point still

[tribal silo]

Yes he was

It would have been a pity for him to land the McLaren seat

[paper fossil]

yeah well the M28 was horrendous

watson said it had the structural rigidity of a paper napkin that he picked up in a motorsport mag interview once

it would have been Peterson and Tambay for 79

likely Peterson Prost for 80

from then on I can only speculate

[tribal silo]

Yes

[past drift]

great read, thanks yall 😄

[hardy ravine]

https://www.instagram.com/p/DGzcDlbqEH5/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

formula_professor

The 1994 Australian GP Schumacher led Hill be one point entering the season-ending Grand Prix in Adelaide, Australia. Their collision midway through the race gave Schumacher his first championship win, in another dramatic twist to a season of extreme highs and lows.

photo courtesy: Damon Hill, Reddit

#F1 #Formula1 #FormulaOne #F1News #DamonHil...

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[hardy ravine]

they one only one race though

[hardy ravine]

i think it san marino 82 should also be remembered as the race which foca boycotted.

it was a really big point in the fisa-foca war

which boiled over anyway in 1982 (south africa drivers' strike)

[paper fossil]

FOCA barely cared about that in fact

[hardy ravine]

jody won it fair and square, gilles was more crash prone. but he only lost it by three points

[paper fossil]

Was more a driver led strike because of clauses dictated in a late 1981 deal that threatened the drivers’ autonomy

Which only Lauda had realised

[hardy ravine]

yeah

[paper fossil]

All the other drivers decided to go along with it for some reason

[past drift]

bro goes on strike the moment he rejoins the sports

[hardy ravine]

yeah

[paper fossil]

Yeah well

He got on the phone to Pironi

To make light of what was actually in these legal documents

[paper fossil]

The funny thing is FISA declaring after the GP that its position prior to the GP was the exact same after it

And no deal had been agreed

This basically meant a cancellation of the Argentine GP

in the immediacy

[hardy ravine]

1982 is a really interesting season — tragic, yes, — but interesting

both on and off track

11 different race winners

9 different winners in 9 consecutive races.

[paper fossil]

And in addition Pironi and others such as Patrese and Prost got massive fines

Which the drivers wanted the teams to pay for

Eventually it got all sorted out

The reason FOCA decided to not attend San Marino is a different issue

Relates to the DSQ of non turbo cars in Brazil

For the water cooled brakes

And a perception that FISA was basically siding with all the manufacturers

I do like when Ferrari decided to show up with a split rear wing at Long Beach in protest at the way garagistes were taking every step to circumvent the rules

[hardy ravine]

yeah

[paper fossil]

Sort of a payback for Spain 1980

[hardy ravine]

what happened there?

[paper fossil]

Which was declared not a world championship event when FISA aligned teams refused to take part because Balestre was basically wanting to fine drivers for not attending his briefings

The Spanish organisation was having none of this and hurriedly just got the race to go ahead with Balestres promise

But it was later declared non wc out of spite

[hardy ravine]

so it was declared a non-championship race after the race finished?

[paper fossil]

Yes

Well those who took part thought it would be

Jones maintains he won 13 gp to this day

His version of events is rather funny because he doesn’t quite understand why it wasn’t considered a wc event

And thinks it is because Balestres wife didn’t have the correct seating

[hardy ravine]

in 1980, the FISA teams didn't really do well.

like ferrari

[paper fossil]

Happened in 1981 too at South Africa

Horrendous tbh

All cars ran on Avons because Michelin was aligned with FISA

and Goodyear quit the sport out of amazement at the political struggles

[hardy ravine]

wow, the fisa-foca war is much bigger than i thought

[paper fossil]

Yes well