classic-motorsport

[vague pollen]

What were they supposed to do? Go to the fucking Renault factory & force them to continue developing the engine at gunpoint?

The chassis was fine and I remember that car being pushed pretty hard

And it took most of it with 0 handling issues

[paper fossil]

It definitely was a step away from Byrne and not good

Symonds says so

Despite his admiration for Wirth as genius

[vague pollen]

It was good but jus underpowered since the engine was being barely upgraded that much by Supertec who were given the Renault engine by Briatore at the last minute

[paper fossil]

He was not practical and set Benetton back 10 years

That is why Flavio endeavoured to get rid of him once he had convinced Renault to buy the team

And replaced him with those who put them onto their 05-06 path eventually

[vague pollen]

At least it wasn't the Williams which was so much of a mess that they literally admitted in Canada that it was almost a completely new car

From having to drastically change the chassis

Even the fuckin wheelbase as well

[paper fossil]

Dude designed a whole car with the CFD. Symonds says the Wind Tunnel was poorly thought out but eventually with upgrades is now usable

Like he’s got great ideas

But his application at Benetton poor

The problems were bigger in 99 though that is for sure

[vague pollen]

Idk how Benetton ran but it always seemed like there was some kinda internal conflict going on

[paper fossil]

I mean interesting that was also running reasonably high in that GP too

Both were poor relative to 97 though

[vague pollen]

The main 1 being that the car was almost a untouched B198 with the only difference being the nose cone

[paper fossil]

More differences

Within the car

Such as aero efficiency

Plus sodding weight from this system Wirth put on the car

[vague pollen]

I mean the sidepods & airbox are identical so they musta been with the floor & winglets

[paper fossil]

I can quote it all later if you want

It was that system which cost them aero efficiency

So it definitely changed bodywork and placings

[vague pollen]

The only noticeable one being the nose cone tho

[paper fossil]

Changed in 97-98 though

Still a high nose

But profile was different

Wouldn’t expect them to deviate from that

[vague pollen]

I mean the sidepod intakes & airbox are pretty much the same especially as it was for the same engine so no need to change them that much

[paper fossil]

The 97 Byrne car honestly had problems too but it had in it fundamental design that made it competitive at certain circuits and conditions

[vague pollen]

And the nose was the same shape since the 95 one

[paper fossil]

Benetton had a flash in the pan at Montreal briefly in 98

About it

And that qualifying in the wet at Austria

[vague pollen]

I mean during the race at Austria they were still running 4th with Fisi

So that was ok

[paper fossil]

Yes but the decline is clear

[vague pollen]

Especially considering how much better the Ferrari & Mclaren were from having constant active development in all areas

[paper fossil]

It happened from 96 onwards though

Even before Renault leaving

[vague pollen]

Ye Schumacher basically taking 3/4 of the staff was a big problem😅

[paper fossil]

Like despite Michael leaving which is a big loss their processes and produced cars are continually poorer to the rest of the top 3 or so

[vague pollen]

He took away what made them good in the 1st place

And gave it to Ferrari

[paper fossil]

Benetton finally get fed up eventually

[paper fossil]

Byrne and Brawn yeah

[vague pollen]

I mean Schumacher "turning Ferrari into Benetton" isn't even a meme either like the F310A high nose

That nose was literally near identical to a Benetton nose

Same chunky pointed kinda shape

[paper fossil]

But at the same time apart from pre plank and diffuser changes they never had the best car on the grid

[past drift]

himself?

oh you’re not talking about Byrne directly

also, it’s quite wild to think he had been with team Enstone since 1981, so like 16 years

[paper fossil]

Well Witney/Enstone

He had been with Toleman

Even in European F2 he had been I think

[vague pollen]

And eventually Ross Brawn

And the other Benetton staff members who he convinced to move to Ferrari

[past drift]

wait, who moved first, Brawn or Byrne?

i think one stayed at Benetton for one year longer than the other

[vague pollen]

Ye Brawn was still at Benetton in 96

[signal lance]

lowk dunno where to post this but here

[past drift]

nice, what museum was that?

[signal lance]

the f1 exhibition at the ExCel

[past drift]

the what?

[desert plover]

Amazing, thx for sharing

[signal lance]

in londom

london

[vague pollen]

Holy shit getting to see pre 1980s cars on display in museums is rare these days

Don't get me wrong I love 80s & 90s F1

But for some weird reason u jus don't tend to see that many 60s or 70s cars in museums

But weirdly enough some have 50s - maybe early 60s cars😅

[signal lance]

yaaa i was shocked

and these

[vague pollen]

Goddamn that lineup of helmets goes so hard

Especially given that they got enough confidence to display a Winfield Williams helmet of all things

[signal lance]

i was literally in AWE

romain grosjeans car remains too

wow

[vague pollen]

Goddamn that museum must be pretty sick

[signal lance]

was CRAZY

flabbergasted

champions trophy

[river cave]

ngl that tab on Senna's helmet spooked me for a second

[dark hill]

Who in the world used that martini helmet

[past drift]

I think that's Jacky Ickx's

[dark hill]

Huh very interesting

[fiery sierra]

last tyrell in 1998

[oblique dock]

Ickx used the Bell XF Twin Window helmet when he raced with Ligier, and when he did sportscars after leaving F1

[round swift]

12 days of classic F1 cars
Day 7: Arrows A19 (or 1998 Arrows F1 car)

[past drift]

guessing the Martini sponsorship comes from the sports car activities? i don't remember him driving for a F1 team with that sponsor

[oblique dock]

The Martini Porsche 936

[past drift]

nice

although, not the prettiest one

[oblique dock]

I think the 936 looks fine.

....and also that it doesn't get the recognition it deserves compared to the 917 and 956/962

[past drift]

below the 917 or 956 in terms of looks

probably from a time where sports cars was less sought?

[oblique dock]

Well, from the time where Group 6 sportscars were used.

Porsche had the 936
Renault had the A442

[past drift]

ah yes

the 936 looks too boxy

[oblique dock]

And then you have the Rondeau M379B

[past drift]

it looks like it was compressed

[oblique dock]

At least it made a name for itself with Jean Rondeau winning the 1980 24 Hours of Le Mans in his own car

[past drift]

ye that's quite sick

also he used a DFV, didn't know that engine could last a whole Le Mans

[desert plover]

they dont have mclaren 2024 on that yet

maybe it was before they won the constructors

[signal lance]

yaaa

[signal lance]

its been there since like september i think idk

[paper fossil]

Death trap

[paper fossil]

1984 Forghieri

[dark hill]

Ickx in a ligier is absolutely cursed

[oblique dock]

DFV's have been used quite often in sportscar racing,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mP7cn-fTSlw&pp=ygUKZGZ2IGxpZ2llcg%3D%3D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1S_8cbW5D1g&pp=ygUHZGZ2IFA2OA%3D%3D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVVu6tbpU9U&pp=ygUOZGZ2IHNwaWNlIHNlOTA%3D

[dark hill]

Most importantly the mirage GR8 getting a double podium with it

1st and 3rd

JS2 also got 2nd

[vague pollen]

I'm wonderin were the Le Mans DFV's ran to the same revs as the F1 DFV's?

Or were they rev limited to be lower than F1 revs

[vague pollen]

Also obvs the DFV could do endurance haha the shit was built like a tank

Easily 1 of the strongest F1 engines ever made

[paper fossil]

prefer him in a Ensign

[past drift]

probably lowered the rpm for better reliability ye

[vague pollen]

It's mad how long it lasted as well

[past drift]

maybe i underestimate its reliability lol

[vague pollen]

20 years is a long time for 1 engine to live

Only other 1 I can think of was the 89 Honda v10

And the 90 Renault v10

Bc Renault & Supertec made it last till 2000

And Mugen made the 89 - 90 Honda v10 live till 2000 as well

Crazy that both of those engines reached 17.5K RPM in 1997 as well

Being as old as they were

[past drift]

and to think McLaren forced Honda to make a V12 in 91

[vague pollen]

I always wonder what if Honda continued developing that 91 - 92 v12

Bc crazily enough the Ferrari v12 in 1995 was revving at 17.5K RPM

U can hear it in some onboards at Suzuka

Like imagine a v12 at 19K or 20K RPM

Which probably woulda happened if Ferrari kept the v12 until 1997 or 1999

[past drift]

yes

[idle gale]

Before making the famed Pantera, Alejandro De Tomaso was an F1 driver

[vague pollen]

Jus thought

Which car would we say is more important out of the Lotus 72 vs the Cooper T43?

For me it's gotta be the Lotus bc correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think any1 ever tried using front mounted radiators after the Lotus pioneered them

And it also obvs gave us airboxes

[past drift]

hard to say cooper t43 when the auto union type A exists

[vague pollen]

Nah but I mean in terms of how they influenced other teams

Bc only a couple years after both cars kinda demo'd how much better they worked than the traditional ways that came before

Tons of other teams started copying them

[paper fossil]

And doing a better job than them too

As was nearly always the case with Lotus

[vague pollen]

Ye like the entire grid didn't get flooded with mid engine cars during the 30s & 50s after the Auto Union Type A

Also is it true what ppl say abt the Type A, Type B & Type C being unreliable?

[past drift]

well it wasn’t the better car

[vague pollen]

Like I heard the Auto Union's had a lot of engine problems

And if that's true then it woulda discouraged tons of other teams from copying it

[vague pollen]

Exactly ye the Cooper's were always pretty quick cars

[past drift]

maybe going for a V16 was the problem lol

[paper fossil]

Cooper maintains they always did a great job

But like a lot of the Maserati period will disagree

That’s on them as much as it was the engine

[past drift]

ah, Maserati, when they also had Citroën gearboxes

[vague pollen]

Wym tho Maserati didn't have a mid engine car before Cooper did they?

[paper fossil]

Nein

Their supply of the old tech engine in the mid 60s

A conscious decison by the new management at Cooper

[vague pollen]

Bc even tho I'm reluctant AF to count the 55 Cooper bc for some stupid reason it had closes arches Cooper were the first

[paper fossil]

That worked only in 1966 because no one but Repco was ready

Even then most of their drivers didn't think much of the cars too

[vague pollen]

Like Cooper & mid/really more of a rear engined car ain't debatable like how BRM were before Lotus by having Gunston as the first cigarette sponsor

[paper fossil]

Shame really Cooper collapsed that quickly

[vague pollen]

Imo Lotus only gets the 1st sponsor thing bc of the Salumi Rondanini car from Monza 1965

[paper fossil]

BRM then would follow

First 3 British constructors to win the wcc collapsed by the third decade of the sport

Shame

[vague pollen]

Ye they shoulda been up there with Arrows & Tyrrell in terms of teams that were rlly good with techy & design stuff

[paper fossil]

In parts

Maybe

[vague pollen]

Bc even tho Arrows never rlly had a front runner car imo they were always underrated AF

[paper fossil]

There was probably more notable people at BRM

Peter Wright comes to mind

Along with Tony Rudd

[vague pollen]

I wonder tho if Cooper or BRM lived into let's say

And this is being kind bc Idk how they were money wise in the late 60s - early 70s

Let's say they live until 1995 like Lotus

Would they have stayed as high end midfielders/front runners?

Or would they have dropped off & became like Tyrrell & Lotus did in the 90s

[paper fossil]

Doubt operationally as well run as Tyrrell

More like Lotus getting by because of some cash injections but not having everything else ever

Tyrrell had one thing at a time but not all the ingredients

But Ken made sure they paid everything on time and fairly

And they always ran their cars the best they could

[past drift]

how many of those who won it after collapsed?

[paper fossil]

Vanwall didn’t enter a full season again after Lewis-Evans death

Cooper went at the end of the second decade of Formula 1

BRM last entered a full season in 1974

[past drift]

oh i had forgotten vanwall lol

[paper fossil]

But entered cars until 1977

Because Stanley was delusional

And thought he was the British Enzo at his British Ferrari

[past drift]

few teams survive their founder

[paper fossil]

Well that is what Mike Pilbeam says anyway

Designer of some of the later cars

And Ciarons Father I believe

[past drift]

brm went down so fast after 72

[paper fossil]

Yes well

Lost Yardley then lost Marlboro

To the same team

Because they were useless

[past drift]

lmao

who was, brm? stanley in particular?

[paper fossil]

BRM was Raymond Mays and Alfred Owen

Stanley came later

After all the good people left

Though he had been there in the earlier days in a lesser role

Owen basically funded it

[past drift]

ah ok i thought he was already around by like 1970

[past drift]

ye, owen racing organisation

[vague pollen]

Imo the saddest one is Arrows in 2002

Bc that car all memes aside

Was the blueprint for what coulda eventually became a front runner if it got developed through 2003 & 2004

Bc fun fact - the "A23" in the Minardi livery was actually what was supposed to be the 2003 Arrows

And there's a very good reason it was so appealing to other teams bc it was easily on par with Sauber & Jaguar

And it was capable of battling front runners like Bernoldi did with Schumacher at Malaysia 2002 & yes Ik he only overtook the F2001B but the F2001B had the same engine as the F2002

And he reclaimed the position at T3 of all places after being overtaken by Michael at T1

So that 2002 Arrows is underrated AF imo

[clear sequoia]

Such a shame what happened to poor Arrows, if I remember correctly Jos Verstappen was integral in development of that A23 and only got the sack just before pre season rumblings.

Definitely could’ve been a regular podium sitter had the team gotten more funding and support

[vague pollen]

And apparently he was supposed to have the 2002 seat instead of Frentzen

Who I'm gonna say is overrated AF

Woulda been way better to see Jos in that seat

Especially as that car liked aggressive driving

[clear sequoia]

HHF had enormous potential but sadly failed to live up to his marks, I too would’ve rather seen Jos the Boss behind the wheel of that Arrows

[vague pollen]

Ye like it was almost as if it was built for Jos

[clear sequoia]

Haha right?

[vague pollen]

Bc Bernoldi always pushed it hard pretty comfortably

Like that car loved to be driven aggressively

Especially with Bernoldi's quali lap at Spain

[clear sequoia]

Yeah you really needed a driver to grab it by the scruff of its neck to drive it properly

Bernoldi was a pleasant surprise of 2002, lots of what ifs with that Arrows outfit

[vague pollen]

Ye that's the other heartbreaking part

Like anyone who could overtake 2002 Schumacher in the dry in a midfield car

They deserve to be taken srsly

[clear sequoia]

Astounding given the raw pace that Ferrari had

[vague pollen]

Like Bernoldi coulda been title challenging material

[clear sequoia]

I think in the right team he would’ve gone much farther, F1 doesn’t have too many barely there teams like it used to anymore. They were so easy to fall in love with because of that human imperfection so many outfits wore on their sleeves

[vague pollen]

I mean in Malaysia it was only the F2001B not the F2002 so it was a bit heavier

But it was the same engine as the F2002 & the aero on both was like 90% the same

[clear sequoia]

Yes but I believe it still ran some 2002 parts like gearbox and motor, still very impressive from Bernoldi

[vague pollen]

Ye it sounded identical to the F2002 onboard

Even late on in 2001 the F2001 started to sound like the F2002

In the last races of 01

[vague pollen]

Ye that's why I hate the corporate part of the manufacturer era

I still think Jordan coulda recovered to being front runners if they had Honda engines in 2003 - 2005

Especially seen as their 01 & 02 cars were way more stable & looked faster on straights than the BAR's

I mean even in 2000 they were matching the BAR's & sometimes going faster than them with Mugen Honda engines while BAR were using factory Honda engines

[clear sequoia]

I think in ‘05 they could’ve been up there for sure given how upside down the regs were that year

That was their last year if I remember correctly, I do miss seeing Eddie Jordan in the pit lane he was the perfect character for the sport

[vague pollen]

2003 & 2004 as well bc they were still midfielders in 03 with those garbage ass non Cosworth Ford engines

Which I never understood how TF it sounded so different to the 97 - 05 Cosworth v10s onboard

[clear sequoia]

I think you’re right, God those Cosworth motors were dreadful, I’m still floored Eddie Irvine dragged that shite Jag to the podium in Monaco and Monza

What a mess that outfit was, really embarrassing for Jaguar I must say not even Toyota were that mismanaged

[clear sequoia]

If I remember correctly Minardi bought rebadged Cosworth engines that had been used in a couple Grand Prix by Jordan up until 2005

[vague pollen]

They ain't the same bc they sound identical to the 2003 Jaguar onboard

[clear sequoia]

Hmm maybe they had been re worked as well. What I would give to go back in time for a day just to watch them run those things again

[vague pollen]

For 2003 I'm convinced Minardi used the 2002 Arrows engines as they sound identical to the 02 Arrows & 02 Jaguar onboard

[clear sequoia]

I wouldn’t be surprised, Minardi did whatever they could to stay afloat come the end of their F1 tenure

[vague pollen]

It's baffling tho how they still struggled for straight line speed

Bc the Cosworth ones were 100× superior to the shitty Asiatech garbage

They were faster but jus not by that much

[clear sequoia]

Haha Asiatech, now that scratches an itch from ages ago. Man F1 is such a different sport in so many ways nowadays

[vague pollen]

I'm kinda hoping some1 does a Asiatech/Supertec/Mugen kinda thing with Alpine's v6

Bc from Monza - Abu Dhabi that shit has been gradually getting better

[clear sequoia]

Will be interesting to see where they take it in 2026 given Renault’s departure for the time being

[vague pollen]

Then they're eventually gonna come back in 3 or 5 years

Be shit for the 1st couple years they're back then get gradually stronger again

Jus like old times bc old habits never die🤣💀

[clear sequoia]

Haha so true, this racing thing is a drug they just can’t kick

[vague pollen]

They saw Supertec from 1998 - 2000 & couldn't resist the temptation

The road car division tried to rehabilitate them but the therapy went wrong & instead they came up with 111⁰ cylinder block engines for 2001

Also in 2001 they had a weird type of TC that cut the fuel supply out instead of feathering the rear brakes

Which Idk if any other teams used or not

But the 02 Jordan sounds like it had it at least in Sato's onboard from Imola

[paper fossil]

who are we talking about here

the Renault?

yeah well the thing is the path they took initially put them on track to discovering how to do something completely different to everyone else on the grid and therefore eventually beat them all

They were on a very good trajectory from the disastrously uncompetitive 2001 car. It was the oddball design of that car that had a wide angle V10 that ended up needing to be beefed up and have its revs restricted to keep it in one piece which put the team on a path that would ultimately lead to those 2005 and 06 titles. And putting extra weight in the rear, which was forced upon them in 01, turned out to work brilliantly well with the Michelin construction, giving it fantastic traction and then they re-optimised the torque curve around reducing maximum revs, and brought gains in fuel consumption - therefore how light the car could be at the start of the race and how tractable it was at lower revs, and that worked hand in hand with the greater traction to give stunning start line performance. Also because you have to match the aero distribution with the weight distribution, there wasn't the same requirement to get massive aero load on the front, which was very much the aero limitation of that time, so they could have a very aero efficient car. So they kept those traits, even with the much better cars of 2002 and 03, and it was almost a given at the start of any race that they would make up one row from where they qualified. And it was a unique technical philosophy and it was interesting because they weren't just trying to do the same but better than the top team, which is always a big ask; they were instead doing something different, and that made its ultimate potential unknowable but exciting, and you could see this progress being made each season.

[vague pollen]

Idk part of me thinks they 2nd guessed it & looked at the Supertec engine

Bc that one was 71⁰ and revving at 17.5K RPM

And for 2004 Renault made a 72⁰ v10

[paper fossil]

they change back the angle to a conventional one yes

but

[vague pollen]

My guess is they mixed the best of both

[paper fossil]

the main parts of what they had to do to even make the higher angle even work are the reasons why the car characteristics followed through

it is by accident but they made corrective action and didn't try to just follow everyone else again

[vague pollen]

True but the block woulda effected the radiator layout a lot bc a 111⁰ block is gonna be way wider than a 72⁰ one

So the 2001 - 2003 car had 0 choice but to stay with flat sidepods

[paper fossil]

yes well permane says it wasn't 111 degrees and that was a good bit for the press to use anyway

[vague pollen]

Idk they did have to cut a hole in the sidepods for the exhaust

[paper fossil]

closer to 100

[vague pollen]

Either way apparently it was capable of 19K RPM but they had to rev limit it so it wouldn't basically rip itself to pieces in the process😅

So the block angle was a big problem

[paper fossil]

"But it was underpowered, it was unreliable and it was a real dog... But both us and Viry learnt huge amounts from that time and those were the building blocks for the championship years."

[elfin siren]

BAR 007

[vague pollen]

I always wonder how this car woulda actually done if they didn't do the whole 2nd fuel tank thing

Bc the 04 car was a fuckin monster

[elfin siren]

Jenson definitely had his Fuel adjusted during 2005 San Marino Grand Prix (to the Point where the Camera TV spotted Ted Kravitz on screen)

[vague pollen]

Like it jus sucks that it got them banned for Spain

And that massively demotivated Sato

Like if they jus evolved the 04 car properly & adapted it to 05 regs then that car coulda potentially been a title challenger

Bc u can see from the sidepod intakes & nose cone

It's still clearly a evolution of the 01 - 03 car

[round swift]

12 days of classic F1 cars
Day 8: Williams FW15 (or 1994 Williams F1 car)

Forgot to do day 8

Anyway day 9 now

12 days of classic F1 cars
Day 9: Jaguar R1 (or 2000 Jaguar F1 car)

[sterile sand]

Virgins Cars Sponsor in 2011

In Silverston only

[vague pollen]

I forgot where the museum is but I seen this Jaguar in person before

[round swift]

Oh

Nice

[vague pollen]

Ye Idk if its still there

Doesn't have a engine sadly

Bc the sidepod & airbox intakes had black boards covering the inside

But it's still in rlly good condition & well looked after

[vague pollen]

I got the name of it - British Motor Museum, Gaydon, Warwick

[round swift]

Alright

[vague pollen]

Ye it's a cool place bc they also got these

Also while we got some 60s cars here

@paper fossil how many 50s - 70s or maybe 80s tracks did F1 used to race on with cobblestone parts?

Bc I always thought this musta taken insane skill to drive committed on

Bc that shit must have next to 0 grip

[paper fossil]

well that is rouen isn't it

at the hairpin

[vague pollen]

Haha Idk much abt 50s - 60s F1 lol

I only rlly know mid 70s - 90s & 00s F1

[past drift]

tbf cars also had not a lot of grip

it all came from the tyres

[paper fossil]

i suspect bremgarten might have had some sections

ngl i don't know

[vague pollen]

Even then tho they were grooved tires & apparently they were insanely hard

[paper fossil]

likely the non championship venues and things like pescara that held one event could have such a part to the circuit

[past drift]

ye that's what i've heard as well. tbf they did all of the race without changing them..

[vague pollen]

I heard that bc of that they apparently had overheating problems

And sometimes they'd blister bc of almost being overworked

[past drift]

wild

[vague pollen]

Given how narrow they were from the 50s - mid 60s tho

Not that surprising

Bc the sidewalls were also tall AF🤣💀

[past drift]

true

[vague pollen]

I jus thought imagine if they raced with those cars on tracks with massive kerbs like Adelaide🤣

[past drift]

they were also at much slower speeds

[vague pollen]

True but I mean drivers still cutted the corners as much as they could

[past drift]

that's how you gain time

[vague pollen]

So they'd probs still be bouncing the cars off those kerbs haha

[vague pollen]

Ye ur right

Also holy shit imagine how hard this musta been

Narrow AF groove tires

Allegedly hard AF grooved tires as well

[paper fossil]

imagine how hard it would be now

[vague pollen]

On wet cobblestone ye🤣💀

Bc u can barely even walk on wet cobbles

Without slipping

[vague pollen]

Idk I'd imagine modern cars would have it a bit easier

[paper fossil]

at full pelt?

nah

[vague pollen]

Especially bc of the tires being like 3× the width

And also being slicks

[paper fossil]

like physically speaking

going to be awful

[past drift]

well not in wet conditions lol

[paper fossil]

this is like what most people from even the 70's say about the period

[vague pollen]

It'd probs be similar to track extending on 70s & 80s kerbs

[paper fossil]

the level is the same but in races they'd all have to back off at some point anyway

because they are a) alcoholic

[vague pollen]

Oh I was thinking abt it in dry conditions

[paper fossil]

or b) fatsos

or both

i suppose

i think the challenges are certainly unique modern and past though

[past drift]

yes

[past drift]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5a8EasZYIQ look it's the Marlboro car

why did Ducarouge left them btw, is it Chiti being a nuisance, Lotus making him an offer he couldn't refuse?

[meager pewter]

I love this car

[oblique dock]

So do I

[oblique dock]

Let's not forget that this was the car that scored Alfa Romeo's last pole position in Formula 1.... in the hands of Andrea De Cesaris

[paper fossil]

Becuase of the French GP debacle

he was a fall man

by 1983 it was more a Paolo Pavanello run team operated by Euroracing

[meager pewter]

always copying me

[oblique dock]

huh....

[meager pewter]

I need to stop joking with you like this bruh

[elfin siren]

2006 is the First Time McLaren go in Silver to their Car

[paper fossil]

to go chrome

[topaz nimbus]

McLaren were called "Silver Arrows" from 1997 to 2014.
But it was the year 2006 that started using chrome for their car.

[vague pollen]

I still think this 1 is so much better than the Vodafone version

Black sidepods make it look so much more aggressive

[paper fossil]

i just like the red more

don't really car for johnnie walker on the sidepod

[vague pollen]

They're the same colour no?

Emirates is a rlly bright almost orangey red

[paper fossil]

different

for sure

even dayglo the emirates is better

as seen in that photo

[vague pollen]

Idk it looks pretty similar to the Vodafone red

Bc the Vodafone red is also a rlly bright red

Noticeably brighter than it was on the 02 - 06 Ferrari's as well

[idle gale]

Ah right, yeah. THAT sponsor

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLNROvX0tIw&ab_channel=AidanMillward

[paper fossil]

late in sending it but anyway

Also worth noting, Wirth says the only thing carried over from 97 to 98 was “the wheel bearings and associated components”.

From the stub nose to the swept-back and tapered sidepods, visually the new Benetton made a clean break from the Byrne era…

[paper fossil]

not a fan of 1984 cars with the extra rear wings and also introduction of winglets

nice how it is on avons

think i prefer the 184's colour scheme though

[meager pewter]

Dude the Downforce:drag was horrid on these thangs after Ground FX left

[paper fossil]

ja und

[vague pollen]

I agree on the secondary rear wings

But winglets are kinda a necessary evil

Bc they do give small temporary fixes to backmarker & midfielder cars

[vague pollen]

Also is it true that in 2003, Minardi were actually preparing to bring Avon in as a 3rd tire manufacturer?

Bc I heard that when Bridgestone (at first) & Michelin refused to supply them

That was their only option & Avon were almost gonna fully enter

[high flume]

does 2005-2013 count as classic

[vague pollen]

I guess

I'd count anything pre 2014 as "classic" atm

Bc that's naturally aspirated engines & high nose cones

[vague pollen]

1 thing I always found weird on the mid 80s cars is how they had pretty similar high cockpit sides to the 96 - nowadays cars

Only jus without the removable foam padding

[oblique dock]

I mean, the channel description says anything up to 2004

[elfin siren]

1997 McLaren Car. The MP4/12

[past drift]

no

[vague pollen]

Funnily enough this is actually the 1996 MP4 11 but with the West livery

U can tell by the airbox & front wing mounting posts

Also I think the tip of the nose is slightly wider on the 96 car

[vague pollen]

I'd count 2005 - 2013 as well tho lol like there was still cigarette & alcohol sponsors & v8s

Leftovers from the 70s - 90s eras

[past drift]

classic is older than 20 years, that's as simple as that

[vague pollen]

No bc groove tires were still being used from 2005 - 2008?

[past drift]

it's not an "era" thing

[vague pollen]

Ye but most of that grid who stayed until 2009 - 2011 was still 90s drivers

Like Barrichello, Trulli, Fisichella

[past drift]

we need something that's easy for everyone, so it's just 20 years or older

doesn't leave room for interpretation

otherwise people will argue, like you're doing 😛

and this never ends

[vague pollen]

25 years then😅

That'd work better

Or 30 years

[vague pollen]

Something I couldn't unsee

There's 2 different versions of the old barrier apex'd St Devote

Slightly different angles but judging from the round line on the left

The 80s version seems more open

[paper fossil]

prefer this

[vague pollen]

Ah ye the modern day pit exit version😅

[oblique dock]

And then Franck Montagny continued using the old line into turn 1 at Monaco in 2006

[vague pollen]

I guess in a weird way could u call the modern version of St Devote a single apex chicane right?

Seen as the apex is pushed like twice it's original width further away from where it used to be😅

[dark hill]

Sir Jackie at the end 🖤

[high flume]

in 1981 4 drivers could have won the WDC
Piquet,Reutemann,Jones,Laffite

Prost could also have been in contention if he didnt had all those dnfs

[oblique dock]

What stings the most is that Reutemann was the polesitter for the final round

[idle gale]

Gotta love James Hunt's occasional "Whoops!" whenever there's an accident or a mechanical failure

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klRIZbqWvHI&ab_channel=Roman

[idle gale]

The sounds of the Honda V12

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X3P5Jd7pjY&ab_channel=NFRF1-TV

[idle gale]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhWx9ia02rY&ab_channel=AidanMillward

[elfin siren]

Fernando Alonso selfie with Lewis Hamilton during the Launch of the 2007 McLaren Car

[desert plover]

Ha he flipped it around to take the picture

Guess you had to I’m not to sure

[elfin siren]

That's actually an Analog Flip Phone before the Digital Flip Phone arrived in 2020s

Old Flip Phone kinda not easy to do a Selfie

[past drift]

analog flip phone?

[elfin siren]

It has Button on it

[past drift]

it’s still digital 😄

[elfin siren]

Yeah

[lime rivet]

behind them is a silver ferrari f2007

[elfin siren]

It's a McLaren. Not Ferrari

[lime rivet]

i know, it's just a f1 joke

i think you need to know what happened to mclaren in 2007

[crude folio]

Spygate?

[paper fossil]

Fuck sake man

A reminder that none of the intellectual property of the F2007 or any other preceding or subsequent Ferrari ended up on the MP4-22

In fact parts of the MP4-22 ended up on the R27

[vague pollen]

Unpopular opinion - the 2007 & 2008 cars look like complete shit

Bc the majority of them are 2004 - 2006 cars with dulled down versions of the previous liveries

Only exception I'd say are the 08 Force India's, BMW Sauber's & Toyota's

[paper fossil]

https://tenor.com/view/peter-griffin-perhaps-family-guy-thinking-gif-13587558

i think the original force india livery is better though

[fading gust]

"You can't describe a photo without words"
The photo

The insta account name there if interested. I think its Spanish but is quite informative and has great photos. This post about Senna and the FW16 is one of the best I've seen

[oblique dock]

But wasn't Enzo Ferrari dead prior to the 1988 Italian Grand Prix

[idle gale]

(Sorry. Wrong image)

The 1987 Australian Grand Prix. The last Ferrari victory ever witnessed by the big man himself

[fading gust]

How is this allowed?

[tender cargo]

I wished he was still alive...

[distant garnet]

I heard a theory that another cause of the accident might have been a slow puncture from the debris

[tired mica]

Ngl it looks like a game, but that might just be early 90s graphics but yeah idk how that’s allowed

[paper fossil]

of course it is

the footage cuts out seconds before he hit the wall from onboard footage

[worthy burrow]

Sorry what is this. Im new

[worthy burrow]

Is this senna onboard???????

Wtf

No thats game

Im dumb

[oblique dock]

That’s a photo of Ayrton Senna and Roland Ratzenberger alongside each other

[elfin siren]

The 2003 Renault Car seen in the 2003 Brazilian Grand Prix

[vague pollen]

Hot take - this livery is better than the 2004 - 2006 Renault livery

[past drift]

agreed

[paper fossil]

the darker blue spot on the aribox and along part of the engine cover besides it is good but i think beyond that the main difference is i-mode being in multiple places and some more of that darker blue

which i think works

[vague pollen]

And also the white end fences on the front & rear wings on the 2002 - 2003 livery

Also I think Mild Seven slightly changed their logo from 2003 - 2004

[paper fossil]

not really

it was just displayed as one row

[vague pollen]

Nah I mean bc they didn't have the swirl before 2004

[paper fossil]

honestly the changes fill out more of the open space than just detracting it

[paper fossil]

yeah that is fair enough it did change

prefer the swirl though

[paper fossil]

for me the blank bit of blue and various areas where it is just colour makes it worse

it is good effort

[vague pollen]

Weirdly enough they changed the font slightly as well

[paper fossil]

but clearly progression was made with the design and it was more fleshed out by 04-06

[vague pollen]

I often think the darker blue airbox & white front wing end fences

Those were the last remains of Benetton on there

[paper fossil]

remove the dark blue airbox and clean it out a bit to be mostly that mild seven blue and yellow

[vague pollen]

Bc sometimes those end fences were totally empty

[paper fossil]

and you have yourself something

think i prefer the 3 colours equally spread out across the car rather than the randomness of 4 in 02-03

[vague pollen]

Also random thought but for some reason Google always comes up pretty weak & vague on this

Did any cars have v10s prior to 1989?

In the 50s - 70s

Bc I ain't found any proof of any v10s being run back in the OG N/A era

[paper fossil]

no

there wasn't

only flat 12's

v12's

h16

v8

v6

inline 4's

etc

[vague pollen]

That's so weird tho bc all the other configs except 10 cylinders were used🤣

[paper fossil]

the only v10 prior to the atmo era was one of the late Alfa Romeo's

never raced

[vague pollen]

I can imagine some 1920s & 1930s cars probs ran them

[paper fossil]

because the Ligier deal died

after pressure from Fiat and then Arnoux criticising the engine

[vague pollen]

Goddamn Ferrari & Fiat's egos were so fragile back then🤣

[paper fossil]

that was a very loose excuse

they just wanted out

[vague pollen]

True but they did jus turn all infantile if they ever got any valid criticism

[paper fossil]

the Alfa turbos had been mostly uncompetitive and they had Ferrari in the sport anyway

[vague pollen]

I wonder if the 92 Ferrari coulda been saved if they actually humbled down & tried to solve the engine problem

Bc that car basically suffered all bc of Ferrari being in denial that they made a shit engine🤣💀

[paper fossil]

or because they for some reason believed Alesi was correct about the car and Capelli was not

despite Alesi having 0 understanding of car dynamics he said it was wonderful

[vague pollen]

Tbh tho that was stupid thinking on their part

Bc Capelli was way more experienced than Jean at that point

[paper fossil]

i mean there is interesting things on the car

[vague pollen]

Oh ye the double floor was a rlly good concept

[paper fossil]

i think it just comes from a fundamental understanding from some people that they believe the quicker drivers are the ones you need to back

and their natural talent is a good excuse to mean they take the car to its limit and therefore know if the car has any clear weaknesses

happened at March with Peterson and Lauda

[vague pollen]

It seems like throughout Jean's career he was driving like a rookie jus constantly anticipating things getting good

Bc he had a lot of skill but he had a pretty exaggerated style which made him kinda accidentally over drive a lot

[paper fossil]

the myth was totally dispelled if anyone had a trained eye in 1991

alesi was expected to beat Prost

he got steam rolled

in qualifying especially

[vague pollen]

Well ye he was basically still a rookie then

[paper fossil]

given Alain practically stopped bothering with it 1985 onwards that astounds me

he never actually had elite front running pace

at least Gilles Villeneuve did

[vague pollen]

Well he was stuck driving mostly midfield cars that constantly had handling & reliability problems

[paper fossil]

prost was on average 0.665% faster than Alesi in qualifiyng in 1991 btw

[vague pollen]

I think that's how he refined his car control so well

Again Jean was basically still a rookie

And Prost had a way more mature style than Jean

[paper fossil]

the picture never changed though

meh

if you compared it other less experienced guys at the time

who i would argue were even less accomplished or fast

he's like only better than johansson i think

as teammates to prost

who was dreadful at mclaren

i think it is an indication of how far off this generation was to schumacher who would arrive within the same year

and was like immediately quicker than piquet by a decent chunk

hakkinen by contrast would be slower than herbert at lotus

[vague pollen]

Eh Idk Hakkinen was always pretty gifted in 90s cars

[paper fossil]

yes but he could deliever stand out qualifying laps

michael would do those in his sleep in grand prix

[vague pollen]

He only seemed to lose his confidence when 17.5K RPM became the new standard rev limit

[paper fossil]

in inferior cars as well

[paper fossil]

would lose his confidence for the oddest of reasons and find it just when he needed to

like at Luxembourg 1998 and Japan 98/99

[vague pollen]

It's weird tho bc he ran pretty low gear ratios in his setup bc he seems like he's not applying that many revs but he was still able to get the same kinda times as other front runners

He had sorta a half smooth half aggressive style

[paper fossil]

like even if you are comparing Hakkinen to Brundle and Michael to Brundle

the difference is

well more in favour of Michael

Michael had a greater advantage over Patrese in 93 than Nigel did over him in 92

this is the level of the field until Michael ages more and Alonso/Raikkonen arrived

[vague pollen]

Ye Michael in the 2000s was pretty weak

[paper fossil]

he's the best driver on the grid to me from 94-02

easily

[vague pollen]

Nah even in 2002 he got beaten to several poles by Montoya

[paper fossil]

so what

that car was actually quite close in raw pace

[vague pollen]

Well it shouldn't have happened considering how much of a mess that Williams was

[paper fossil]

certain circumstances took montoya out of contention not to mention errors

from williams and montoya

michael was still the best driver on the grid

in no way was it montoya

who was still slower than ralf on average

montoya was at his best in 2003

[vague pollen]

In 2003 & 2004 he was pretty good

[paper fossil]

usually at his best when the car was out of its competitive window because otherwise ralf would actually be faster

like god sake ralf comes back in late 04 and at japan puts in a performance where montoya is caught sleeping

as he had been when pizzonia was in there

such as at monza

he's really good in 2003 when the unsually hot 03 summer favours the michelin compounds and bmw williams synergy reaches its heights

[tired mica]

I never liked these liveries, I like the ING ones wayyyy more

[vague pollen]

Idk abt that I mean Ralf had a smoother style than Montoya

And the car always seemed pretty inconsistent with its handling from 2001 - 2003

[paper fossil]

the only season montoya was quicker than him in qualifying was 04

he was slower than him in gp bar 03

think people really do overrate this idea montoya was one of the best to never win a wdc

he was certainly a very good gp driver

[vague pollen]

Weirdly enough in Austria 2003 they basically had to revert to the 2002 setup bc they couldn't find a good enough one for Ralf

[paper fossil]

but there is better

[vague pollen]

Like those cars were a mess handling wise bc they were basically jus the FW20 with minor aero upgrades

[paper fossil]

the messy handling was more favourable to montoya than it was schumacher

and usually that part of the cars flaws made it less competitive and montoya got the most out of it

he could drag a car about

[vague pollen]

Haha good ol CART experience doing him some favours there

[paper fossil]

for sure

perhaps

but i discussed it before like people would be like ah well it is proof many in CART can hack it

but he came over from Europe and with little time was already beating them

[vague pollen]

I think that was J Villeneuve's main problem as well tho bc he had a tendency to jus expect way more out of his BAR's than they were actually capable of

[paper fossil]

give it a bit more time he'd probably easily beat them

but his destiny was always F1

there is i think no golden bullet you can just take

it is like those people saying Palou would get the job done in McLaren

there is nothing atm to suggest he would be as quick as Norris or capable of the pressure against Verstappen in his first Formula 1 World Championship fight

Norris has been comfortably faster than a guy who made pretty easy work of the junior ladder in Piastri

[elfin siren]

David Coulthard driving the 1994 Williams Racing Car in British Grand Prix

David as we know replace Senna from 1994 Monaco Grand Prix for Williams

[idle gale]

Though Nigel was behind the wheel in some races after Ayrton's fatal accident

[desert plover]

Any reason why Prost didn't want to come back to Williams and race for them after Senna died?

He could've gotten tons of more wins and podiums

[elfin siren]

I think David Coulthard might know why he is chosen as Senna's replacement

Respect for Williams to choose him though

[mighty ginkgo]

Mansell won races that year right (iirc)

[oblique dock]

He only won the Australian Grand Prix

[mighty ginkgo]

oh

[elfin siren]

This is Martin Brundle, celebrating his Podium in 1995 Belgian Grand Prix

1 Year before he retired from F1 and serve as Commentator

[past drift]

he was a consultant for McLaren, and I bet the reasons why he left Williams were still vivid

[paper fossil]

He was paid to not race

Patrese was initially asked but rejected

[past drift]

👍

[idle gale]

Imagine James Hunt and John Watson in the Com Box together insulting bad drivers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPe0t02dWF4&ab_channel=sbam17

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umvqke-qqI8&ab_channel=BeelzebulKlendathu

[idle gale]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXo3b-xSm2E&ab_channel=AidanMillward

[river cave]

Prost's personal feeling was he couldn't morally take the seat that belonged to Senna after he had been killed. He felt that he couldn't come back just after he retired and retake the seat he vacated for Senna

Mansell spoke about the horrible feeling stepping into that car which a few months before belonged to Senna

Mansell only came back because Bernie bought out his contract and told him he was driving for Williams. Had he had his way, he probably would've stayed with Newman-Haas in America

[river cave]

Patrese thought it was too dangerous and rejected it, Frentzen didn't want to terminate his contract with Sauber out of loyalty, and Prost simply didn't want to take the seat

[elfin siren]

Juan Pablo Montoya in 2004 United States Grand Prix, A Few Laps before he gets disqualified from the Race for Illegal Spare Car

[past drift]

only podium for Takuma Sato that race!

[little berry]

he’s the only Japanese to hold a podium right or is that he was the 2nd one to hold it?

[past drift]

he is the second, Aguri Suzuki got one at the 1990 Japanese GP

and then Kamui Kobayashi got one at the 2012 Japanese GP

[vague pollen]

Man this whole season was fucked over by the Walrus Nose

Coulda had another title charge if they ran the whole season without it

[elfin siren]

JPM may have a lot of Black Flag in his Career but that Illegal Spare Car took Race Control sometimes to disqualified him

[vague pollen]

Indianapolis jus seemed like a unlucky track for Juan

2001 - Engine DNF
2002 - Ralf caused a collision
2003 - BS penalty for Barrichello attempting to force him into T2
2004 - DQ for taking the Spare Car

[paper fossil]

Doubt it

[vague pollen]

Well the thing is the F2004 is overrated AF

Bc it was capable of being raced pretty hard & beaten in wheel to wheel battles

And also there are other cars than the F2004 that used to have lap records

Like that Williams even with the Walrus nose was capable of pretty comfortably following the Ferrari quite closely

And let's be honest Ralf's racecraft sucked ass compared to Montoya's

[past drift]

the year before he was very competitive against Juan

[vague pollen]

Well he wasn't challenging for the 03 title😅

[past drift]

up until mid season, approximately

[vague pollen]

Ye but Ralf never had the confidence to race as risky & daring as Juan

Like I can't see him having a battle like Montoya did with Klien at Nurburgring 2004

Where Juan used basically every corner available jus to try & clear a slower car

[past drift]

with all that superior racecraft, Juan won one more race than Ralf only

[vague pollen]

True but Ralf isn't the 1 remembered for not being afraid of or intimated by his brother

Like I find it amazing with how much ppl shit on Montoya that Raikkonen didn't get the same during his Mclaren years

[vague pollen]

But that still is 1 more than Ralf😅

So that's statistic proof that Juan was better & besides he was the Number 1 driver there

Ralf was never gonna get Number 1 status

[past drift]

🤷‍♂️ Juan got 3 wins with McLaren after leaving Williams

[vague pollen]

But that was a car that was developed for a completely different style to his

[past drift]

said McLaren fought for the title (well, one half of the garage did)

[vague pollen]

That half was the Number 1 driver tho

Juan jus went there for refuge bc Williams were having too much problems with BMW & he saw the teams downfall coming

No one in their right mind would willingly migrate to a former title rivals team knowing that said rival is the Number 1

The only reason Kimi did to Ferrari in 2007 is bc his manager basically snuck him into Schumacher's race seat while Michael hadn't renewed his contract yet

[past drift]

what i'm saying is, true Juan won more races, but at the same time he left Williams for a title contender team which Ralf did not

[vague pollen]

Well like I said both of them saw what was coming

It was enough to make Button wanna go back on his deal with them

They jus needed anywhere else to go

And tbf Toyota were a decent enough midfield team at the time

[past drift]

when Ralf joined them, they had scored 9 pts vs Williams' 88

McLaren had a bit of a slump in. 2004, but they were consistently top 3 with Williams and Ferrari around that era

[vague pollen]

I do wonder tho how 2005 woulda gone if Montoya & Ralf were still there

Bc that car seemed like it underperformed with Heidfeld & Webber

Still capable of podiums & wins

But it jus spent most of the time in the midfield

[clear sequoia]

Ralf was a deeply misunderstood character in the paddock. Not to the level of Jaques Villeneuve but he had phenomenal speed on his day and couldn’t be touched over one lap. In the right environment could have very well been a WDC contender

Shame really his career was largely in the shadows of his brother and teammates, he just couldn’t put it all together over a seasons distance to establish himself as top shelf driver

[elfin siren]

Felipe Massa in 2007 Canadian Grand Prix, Just moment before he is Black Flag alongside the Renault Giancarlo Fisichella due to exit the Pit under the Red Flag

There was no Black Flag until 17 Years later in 2024 Sao Paulo Grand Prix when we saw Nico Hulkenberg gets Black Flag for having an Outside Assistance

[past drift]

There has been 2 championship races held on a first of january, both were won by Jim Clark

one of them turned out to be his last F1 win

[hidden drift]

Michael Schumacher & Ralf Schumacher, few brothers that shared podiums in F1 history.

[past drift]

https://www.statsf1.com/en/statistiques/pilote/podium/duo-detail--630-672.aspx not only that, but they shared 16 podiums together!

[paper fossil]

not a lot

i think it is a pretty romantic idea but williams was not together well technically going into 2004

and patrick head not controlling that is the problem

that is what created the walrus

that always creates itself

[vague pollen]

It was nothing more than a blind experiment with 0 thought put into it

[paper fossil]

the experiment was done before

willis had done this

he knew it didn't work and said as much to sam michael on grids in 2004 while working for BAR

[vague pollen]

Any pics of it?

[paper fossil]

but beyond that it still had problems

it is just testimony from a Bring Back V10's episode

there is not photos of it

because it wouldn't have likely ended up on a car but the idea was long discussed

[vague pollen]

Tbh I'm amazed how the 2003 & 2004 BAR's became as good as they did

Especially seeing how unstable the 2000 - 2002 car was

Bc the 03 & 04 cars were straight up evolutions of the 02 car

Also that makes me wonder why Jordan didn't jus take the 2002 Honda v10s & give them to Mugen

Bc Honda weren't willing to supply Jordan for 03 but I can't see any reason why Jordan wouldn't have been able/allowed to keep the 2001 - 2002 Honda v10s

[elfin siren]

How F1 1970s Roll Hoop looks like from 1972

That's in 1975 where Niki Lauda drive it

[vague pollen]

I gotta admit tho even tho some of them looked goofy AF

Some of them did look pretty sick as well

[paper fossil]

God knows how Ronnie won so many races in that outdated thing

The type 72 used in 1974 that is

Not the new 76

Monaco is just peak Ronnie

[past drift]

shame he left Lotus so soon in 76 they had a better car to work with

[vague pollen]

Oh also fun fact - the 72 didn't pioneer sidepods like a lot of ppl like to think it did

Even tho this car only had 1, it pre dates the Lotus 72 by 30 years

[mighty ginkgo]

roll hoop and 1970s are not 2 things i expected to see together

[elfin siren]

1987 Belgian Grand Prix

[river cave]

Mansell man handled him after that race

[paper fossil]

https://x.com/f1_headassery/status/1875200705772077123?s=46

Prost Stan Account (@f1_headassery) on X

Question of the day for research purposes: Alan Jones or Nigel Mansell? All time, peak for peak, and low for low

Twitter · Jan 3, 2025, 3:21 PM

[past drift]

Jones is like Mansell without the diva aspect

[river cave]

The only thing Mansell and Jones have in common was they were both built like a brick shit house

Jones was literally an Australian stereotype; no bullshit, get in and get it done type of driver who wasn't in the mood for politics or undertable agreements

Mansell was a massive diva who had to have everything his own way and spent more time on the golf course than in the car

[idle gale]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muTPlgxGNWY&ab_channel=AidanMillward

[queen saddle]

Schumi met Mr. Bean???

[azure thorn]

e

[paper fossil]

Jones ends up at least in Frank and Patricks mind the archetypal Williams driver that no one ever lives up to

They were so not ready to let go of him at the end of 1981 and although Keke was a good swap as far as ability was concerned he didn't work within the team the same way

Back to the post though and I think for lows it has to be Mansell while the highs is debatable

Jones has 1986 but Mansell has basically all of his time at Lotus plus 1990, 94 and 95

And yes before people jump on me as he won a race and set pole in his cameos his performances to the standard of someone like Hill weren't that good

[river cave]

And a reminder the race he won was Adelaide 1994. Which he won for obvious reasons

[past drift]

SKILL

[paper fossil]

Barely held off Berger in a much slower Ferrari

“My job here is done” - Mansell probably

I mean he claims he let through Hill and Schumacher and damaged his car as a result

Why the fuck would he let through Schumi though

Shit start

Basically

He is probably perhaps confused about the two separate things

[vague pollen]

Wasn't that much slower bc it was still capable of leading races & qualifying on the 1st & 2nd rows of the grid

[paper fossil]

It definitely was

At least 1% slower across the year

[vague pollen]

Bc he didn't even want to compete there in the 1st place & had 0 chance of fighting for a title? Like IIRC he full on felt like staying in CART & only went back bc Williams were demanding him specifically to take Ayrton's seat

[paper fossil]

The answer is that it is the usual bullshitting he does in a lot of his autobiography

Both

He fucked up his start and Hill/Schumacher started better

He didn't as such let by either of them through

[vague pollen]

Nah that's what I mean tho he probs jus made a error & didn't care much abt the result

Bc he wanted to be in CART instead of Williams & had 0 chance of being properly competitive in a car he barely knew

He jus seemed demotivated & generally not on good form

[paper fossil]

I think it speaks to his performance they thought Coulthard with much less experience had done practically as good a job if not better and would improve

But by some divine right he thought he deserved it

[paper fossil]

That is like incredibly incorrect

He didn't want to leave F1 in the first place and when the opportunity came for cameos he desperately wanted to leave CART and focus on F1 for 95

Newman Haas were poor in 94 and Penkse dominated

He goes on about this ambition to return in his first biography that was penned by James Allen

Think his contract at the time in IndyCar took him to the end of 95

Maybe even 96 but I forget

[vague pollen]

The part abt him being demotivated & not on proper form tho nah

[paper fossil]

That got completely settled out so he could return in the first place

[paper fossil]

Yes demotivated in ICWS more like

[vague pollen]

Nah I mean generally he didn't look comfortable or happy in F1 in 1994

[paper fossil]

He very much believed he had the Williams seat for 95 from his performances in the 4 gp

That isn't how he describes it in his book

[vague pollen]

Bruh we get it ur a stereotypical Eurotard CART hater take that BS attitude somewhere else

[paper fossil]

He certainly took it with the view he had to adapt again and it wasn't a gold mine of opportunities he might have had

But he wasn't demotivated

He was very motivated to race for 95 at Williams

[vague pollen]

He definitely wasn't as happy or positive as he was in 92 & before then

In 94 that is

[paper fossil]

Probably nothing will compare given he had an extremely dominant car and could relax more than half the time

But he was more happy of the opportunity at Williams than how bad 94 went for Newman Haas

When he wasn't happy is when they picked Coulthard

Balance of stuff though like in races Nigel was really poor

He was crashing with Barrichello in Jerez and was celebrating passing Alesi on the last lap at Suzuka like a world cup win in addition to a rather sloppy and fortunate Adelaide

While Damon had just won the GP

Oddly enough it was qualifying where he faired better

Not much quicker than Damon but better than DC was

[paper fossil]

Don’t see what this has got to do with it

94 was just not a very good year to be there if you weren't in the Ilmor powered Penske

I mean it is definitely true Mansell saw IndyCar as an opportunity because everything in F1 had been slammed in his face

But it was to cope with the idea he couldn't defend his title so he did it in America

[vague pollen]

The fact that literally any time something to do with CART or Indycar is mentioned here u always gotta talk condescendingly AF & try as hard as u can to discredit it & describe it as inferior to F1

[paper fossil]

It has been most of the time for sure but that is like not even a bad thing at all

It is itself a very good racing series with an interesting history

Mansell wanted to be in F1 though

That was the pinnacle for him

[vague pollen]

It fucking is bc it's ignorant as shit elitism towards F1 which is literally 1 of the reasons ppl like u are a fucking meme to American motorsport fans

[paper fossil]

He couldn't stand having to try elsewhere if it was not his world championship winning Williams team he was driving with for 93 so IndyCar became the alternative

A good one

Because a lot of the ex European based drivers were in there and he managed to get a spot with the team that Michael thought were going to easily win 93

[paper fossil]

Cool

I think all the best of IndyCar who make it over to F1 usually find their matches or better teammates/drivers though

And usually the average guys of Formula 1 can often do very well in IndyCar

[vague pollen]

Oh ye jus like how Villeneuve did in 97

[vague pollen]

Ye how did Stefan Johansen do again?

[paper fossil]

Villeneuve definitely had his matches though

And he’s despite my love of him one of the weaker world champions

Definitely has to be behind Button

Think people knock him too much for 97

It is simply the seasons after 2000 or 2001 where he looked weaker

[vague pollen]

Nah the only reason he got outscored in 03 was mostly due to mechanical & electrical failures tho

[paper fossil]

96-00 is perfect

[vague pollen]

Plus Dave Richards was allegedly a asshole towards him in 03 & massively knocked his confidence

[paper fossil]

I agree there

But Button regardless was quicker

He got pretty easily beaten by Massa and a perfectly acceptable 06 wasn't enough to keep his job

Kubica was the right call

And I don’t like that man and he’s extremely overrated

[vague pollen]

Massa wasn't bad tho?

Like he was basically Sauber's Number 1 at that point

[paper fossil]

He definitely wasn't that good though

Raikkonen was just so much weaker post 06

Look at that margin compared to Alonsos most of the time

And then also how far ahead of Raikkonen Alonso was in 2014

Villeneuve met his matches though like the biggest benefit of the doubt for me in 97 is the guy is facing Schumacher for god sake

Given him some slack because Michael was at a different level from 94-02

He’s worth the one world championship he got I think but it is pretty easy to understand why he isn't rated highly among the world champions or even where his championship campaign stands

[desert plover]

The last time Senna and Prost fought on track

Senna retired and Prost finished first

[vague pollen]

Man I love finding pre 70s cars with sidepods

It looks so weird but fits at the same time😅

[elfin siren]

What's that Team Car Name?

[hollow lake]

Johnny something

[vague pollen]

Driver's name is Johnnie Parsons

All Ik abt the car so far tho is it's 1 of the USAC cars that competed in the 1957 "Race of 2 Worlds"

[desert plover]

Guess the driver and year

Notice the butterfly on the wing

[vague pollen]

Driver Idk but 1983?

[desert plover]

yes but do you know what F1 team it is?

[vague pollen]

Oh ye obvs Ligier😅

[oblique dock]

Jean Pierre Jarier

[paper fossil]

Jarier so it is 1983

Horrible year really

[idle gale]

The Arrows that turned into a Minardi

Well, at least the Show Car was

[desert plover]

Yup

[elfin siren]

Fernando Alonso driving in a Ferrari Car in 2010 Malaysian Grand Prix

[desert plover]

Name the year

[desert terrace]

1980?

[vague pollen]

I wonder how much of it was actually used bc the 03 & 04 Minardi's look like evolutions of the PS02 but I heard Minardi actually did end up implementing some of the Arrows's stuff into either the PS03 or PS04

[past drift]

he almost won at long beach!!

[woven zinc]

2010 isn't classic yet though

[woven zinc]

would be the PS04 bc they didn't get the A23s until later in 2003

[past drift]

both are from 79?

[inland ferry]

does anyone know him

[oblique dock]

That's Alan Jones. He won Williams' first WDC in 1980, as well as him being Australia's last F1 world champion

[inland ferry]

hm

[oblique dock]

In addition, Jones also gave Shadow their first F1 win during the 1977 Austrian Grand Prix, which at the same time, was his first ever F1 win.

Funny thing is that after the race, the Australian anthem wasn't ready, so someone on a trumpet played happy birthday

[river cave]

Uhh yeah

Given that we Aussies are still waiting for another title 45 years later

[vague pollen]

Bro had happy birthday playing instead of his national anthem for his 1st win💀

[river cave]

Could be worse

https://youtube.com/shorts/PYJs8xfxm1A?si=M4D2WJgJdYd4cakp

You could be Pedro Rodriguez

[past drift]

lmao

[vague pollen]

Ah I guess they jus used the newer Cosworth engines then

Bc the PS04 sounds the same as the A23 & Jag R3 on onboard

But the PS03 is weird bc it's known that they used 2nd hand Cosworth v10s but the only car it sounds like from onboards is the 99 Stewart

Weirdest thing is Wikipedia says the PS03 used the same engine as the 01 Jag but onboard they sound pretty different

Like the PS03's engine sounds almost identical to the 99 Stewart

[past drift]

might just be diff mic or mic placement

the Racing Point of 2020 sounded very differently for that reason

[desert plover]

ya i think so!

[vague pollen]

Nah see that's the weirdest part bc it ain't like the 94 Ferrari which sounded rlly weird & inconsistent across that year bc of mic problems

Like in the onboards I seen the sound is always consistently the same

[past drift]

not what i mean lol

different mic placement compared to the jaguar for instance

[vague pollen]

Nah bc there's the same angle for all 3 cars

Also I'm pretty sure the mics are built into the T Cams & shoulder cams

[inland ferry]

LMFAOOO

[inland ferry]

crazy

[idle gale]

Fernando's onboard of his 130R Overtake

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDC_WcR0wjc&ab_channel=Videók4keréken

In fact, I think Fernando's Aggressive Understeer driving style in the early 2000s became quite noticable around 2003-2006

[river cave]

Yeah

Thanks Webber, you blew it

[inland ferry]

https://tenor.com/view/sebastian-vettel-mark-webber-vettel-and-webber-red-bull-logo-f1crash-gif-24612917

[past drift]

oh yeah the big steering wheel movements he would do at corner entry

[raw vortex]

https://tenor.com/view/racing-formula1-f1-f1crash-crash-gif-25274674

[round swift]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozkArMnj1qQ

[pliant lagoon]

I see someone in a McLaren goodie with Lando’s number on it at school

[mighty ginkgo]

I think wrong channel

but funni

[idle gale]

Seems like both Nigel and Gerhard blipped the throttle as well. Although not as aggressive like with Ayrton's throttle technique

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmXUxTgag8M&ab_channel=StefMeister2011

[vague pollen]

Ye the whole "Senna invented feathering the throttle" thing is total BS

Bc I seen some 70s onboards where drivers were doing it as well

It's jus whenever drivers get understeer they jab the throttle a bit to provoke the rear end so u get a bit of oversteer to force the car to turn in more

[mighty ginkgo]

popularised a better word

[elfin siren]

Williams 1994 Car in Monaco Grand Prix, A Week after Ayrton Senna Fatal Accident

Guess the Driver on Left and Right

[desert terrace]

Hill

[desert plover]

The number 0 gives it away aswell

[past drift]

quite a bit

[vague pollen]

And the helmet as well😅

[mighty ginkgo]

Hill and coulthard? i can’t remember properly

[past drift]

Williams only entered one car at Monaco

[mighty ginkgo]

oh

so it’s just hill

[vague pollen]

Also David's helmet was a much brighter blue than Hill's

[past drift]

I always thoguth Hill's helmet was black, he got it in a much lighter blue recently

[paper fossil]

the design is based off the London Rowing Club caps

which he was a member of in his 20's before he got involved in car racing

[river cave]

Also, his father had the exact same design on his helmet when he was racing

[paper fossil]

i was talking about Graham

wasn't the first Rowing club he was in

he talks about in his 1969 autobiography

[river cave]

ah yes

thought you still meant Damon

[fiery sierra]

schumacher through the years

[vague pollen]

Me too but when u see it in (mainly onboard) vids where there's bright light, u can see the blue whenever it catches some sun

[past drift]

yeah probably, i guess it's just a dark navy

[verbal prism]

This is missing one Benneton.

[mighty ginkgo]

I counted its correct though

[desert plover]

I think the 1992 Benneton is missing

[verbal prism]

He drove for Benneton in 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, and 1995.

[mighty ginkgo]

oh

[elfin siren]

McLaren 1994 Car during the San Marino Grand Prix

Guess the Driver

[mighty ginkgo]

brundle, I forgot the other driver

was it mansell

[past drift]

Hakkinen

the one in the car

[mighty ginkgo]

oh

completely forgot about him

[fiery sierra]

The Benetton from 1991 is missing, I haven't included it because he also drove the Jordan

[past drift]

ah ye it's the B191B you showed, not the B191

[vague pollen]

What actually were the differences between the B191A & B191B tho?

Bc it basically jus looks like the B190 but with the raised nose & a different livery

[past drift]

that's not enough for you?