classic-motorsport

[past drift]

and a few podiums

[paper fossil]

At Dallas yeah

Should have won

No idea how Rosberg won in that awful Williams

That was rather a message of what was to come at Williams

Rosberg blasted Mansell in 85 like Nigel had bare amount of results until the last 3-4 GP

He is quite frankly more lucky than he believes he was

[hardy ravine]

1986 mansell performed good though. he should have won

[paper fossil]

Yeah

I mean you say Australia but I think of him needlessly battling Senna on the opening lap of Rio

While Piquet won

Also Mexico where he stalled the car

Piquet similarly took himself out of the race he was easily going to win at Detroit

[hardy ravine]

prost winning that championship is like kimi winning 2007

[paper fossil]

I don’t think so

[hardy ravine]

not expected, to say the least

[paper fossil]

I think most expected Raikkonen to win 07

Tbh

Ferrari had the better form coming into the year

He actually was underwhelming to what Ferrari expected

Marginally quicker than Massa in just 07 and also didn’t work as hard as Schumacher

[hardy ravine]

i think 1986 has a lot of parallels to 2007

the fastest team having intra team rivalry

[paper fossil]

The Ferrari was a competitive package that was honestly pure pace wise quicker than the McLaren

3 drivers going for it really is the only comparison I can say

[hardy ravine]

the person from the other team steals the championship from under their noses at the last race

[paper fossil]

Benetton and Lotus were additionally competitive enough for wins and good results

There was no spygate

And Prost won in a car genuinely inferior to the Williams

Don’t think the Ferrari was inferior to the McLaren at all

Kimi I don’t think extracted near the best potential out of that year

Prost did

[paper fossil]

Definitely less expected than how Ferrari won Brazil mind you

Mansell was driving to 3rd but Piquet would have won without their car having more usable downforce that hurt the Goodyears

Ferrari were always winning Interlagos

[hardy ravine]

but why did they pit piquet?

i know it was a precaution

but they could have tried their luck knowing that if they pit piquet cant win

[paper fossil]

Because they didn’t want him having an accident at like the kink before the back straight or anything

Not worth it

Piquet never gave Patrick a hard time for that call or anyone

Which I think says a lot about his professional attitude

He was a good driver to work for

[paper fossil]

"I guess if Ronnie Peterson was the best team-mate I ever had, Nigel Mansell was the worst" and "I had a lot of respect for him as a driver, but not as a man" - Mario Andretti

given Mansell complained about that in his F1 career

very funny

[river cave]

I mean seems legit

[meager pewter]

Nige was always known for being a Diva

As far as I've been aware

[paper fossil]

he tries to act like he wasn't

is the main issue

much like surtees

[river cave]

yeah apparently part of the Surtees' team issues was the fact John Surtees was a pain in the ass to deal with

[vague pollen]

Can't have been any worse than Ron Dennis tho😅

Like goddamn it's a miracle ppl like Hakkinen & Senna could even tolerate him given how fuckin arrogant he was

[river cave]

that's because for a decent amount of Dennis' reign, McLaren had a championship contending car

you will put up with a lot of shit if it gives you the oppotunity to be immortalized in F1 history

[vague pollen]

Even then tho howcome Raikkonen was as loyal as he was😅

[river cave]

Couldn't tell you

maybe it could be because Dennis trusted in Mika's insight and gave Kimi the oppotunity at a front running team

when after 2001 Kimi didn't really have any ties to a big team

[vague pollen]

Well Idk if this is true or not but apparently it took Mika to convince Ron rlly hard to sign Kimi bc Ron was initially pretty reluctant to sign Kimi

[river cave]

well he was a rookie with barely any experience in car racing

[willow gorge]

If you want to win, pick the fin

[river cave]

if you were to look at Kimi in Melbourne in 2001 and someone told you in 2 years he would be fighting for the World Championship

people would've laughed at you

Montoya and Alonso would've been your main picks for aspiring rookies

[vague pollen]

Ye but he did prove himself pretty good like there was a vid on YT of him chasing a Williams at Silverstone in that Sauber

[river cave]

which they were, even if Montoya came up short

[river cave]

yes as 2001 went on, it became clear why he got that Sauber seat over Mazzacane

but initially, the only two people who had faith in him were Peter Sauber, and Michael Schumacher

[vague pollen]

Idk Alonso did have some luck tho bc he had Briatore backing him the whole time & he was already a Benetton test driver

So he had way more security than Raikkonen

And Montoya was almost untouchable in Williams as he was basically their number 1 before Ralf even signed

[river cave]

Montoya was definitely the golden child out of the rookies; he was being hyped up as early as 1999 with the Zanardi-CGR swap

Alonso wasn't that hyped until that F3000 race at Spa

he made a lot of people pay attention with that drive

and also yes Briatore was in his camp, but Webber was in the same position

Alonso and Webber both got the test role at Benetton for 2001

[vague pollen]

Alonso definitely deserved the 2002 Renault seat way more than Button

[river cave]

between the two yes

ideally it should've been Button-Alonso for 2003

but Trulli had a contract

[vague pollen]

Espeically bc at that time Button was still kinda trash

[river cave]

there was a lot of potential that was being hidden under the fact he was in a piece of shit car in 2001

and then had Briatore just eating away at him in 2002

You look at his performances in 2003 and he was really shinning

[vague pollen]

Nah he's admitted himself he only got good by learning from his teammates

In his Beyond The Grid interview

[river cave]

yes he did

[vague pollen]

Like that 01 Benetton was unreliable but it did have its moments

[river cave]

yeah that was something he mentioned

like people were shitting on him for his performances at Malaysia that year

ignoring the fact his car didn't have power steering

At Sepang of all places

it was a physical struggle to just get to the end

[vague pollen]

He did have a bit of luck from Villeneuve's DNF's tho

Bc ppl forget in the 1st half of 03 Jacques actually kinda got rlly good again

[river cave]

Villeneuve gets a lot of shit for his late career stint

not really that deserving, other than the Renault-Sauber stint

even the end of BAR was still good

he just started to lose ground to Button and also in the team

[vague pollen]

Apparently the electrical & mechanical DNF's along with Dave Richards apparently being a ass towards him jus demotivated him in 2003

[vague pollen]

Even then in 2005 he was still pretty good

Like he had some pretty decent battles with the Williams's & even sometimes Alonso's Renault

[vague pollen]

I wonder how things woulda gone for him if he did either

1 - take Coulthard's seat at Mclaren like he was offered for 99

Or 2 - jus been patient with Williams & waited for the BMW deal to come into effect

[river cave]

Probably would've done a far better job than DC did in 1999

would be have beaten Mika?

He was pretty poor that year so I dunno

Staying at Williams would've been good

[vague pollen]

He woulda 100% been a big threat to Mika

[river cave]

however i think Montoya would've still ended up overshadowing him

1999 is the weird championship where Mika was mid, Ferrari's hopes were on their paycheck driver, DC was just not there

and Jordan made a unforseeable title bid

[vague pollen]

It's kinda weird to think that at 1 point him & Montoya were technically teammates

Even tho Juan was only a test driver

[vague pollen]

And I reckon if the Stewart was more reliable that coulda been a title contender car

Bc that also genuinely had some pretty good pace & it was capable of being a proper front runner without needing luck to give it good results

[river cave]

The car was probably good enough

but as per usual, the Ford engine was a heap of trash

[vague pollen]

Well it's weird bc it had a pretty good amount of power

But it was jus unreliable AF😅

Kinda similar to how the BMW & Merc v10s were from 2000 - 2005

[river cave]

1990?

[oblique dock]

1989

Pirro was still at Benetton before Moreno and Piquet showed up

[river cave]

Wasn't Herbert there for a while in '89?

[oblique dock]

Yeah

[river cave]

I seem to remember him talking about Brazil where basically the only person who congratulated him for scoring points for Benetton himself

[oblique dock]

….even though Moreno replaced Nannini after his helicopter crash

[idle gale]

Before the Lotus 49 had its iconic Gold Leaf sponsorship. Also the final race won by Jim Clark

[paper fossil]

Just 6 gp weekends

Didn’t qualify for Canada that was the final straw

Collins crusade to put Herbert in was rather a silly misstep

He was never going to work that injured

He says he struggled anywhere with heavy braking but there wasn’t too much of that at Monaco or that config of Mexico

And he was nowhere to Nannini

Only at Rio

[hardy ravine]

You know a lot about f1. I thought i knew too much till i joined this server

[meager pewter]

The BMW V10's were alright reliability wise I thought

Just... Williams

Well apart from 05 coz oops respec'd engine

[vague pollen]

They weren't as bad as Mercedes but in 2001 - 2004 they cost Williams a lot bc of gearbox & engine problems

[hardy ravine]

They were the fastest, but not the most reliable

[distant garnet]

Mercedes was worse though

After 2001 and before 2005,Williams actually finished the season ahead of McLaren

Williams main issue was not having that much of a nice chassis and aerodynamical package as Ferrari and McLaren (and later BAR and Renault)

[velvet otter]

hey who has watched rush f1

[willow gorge]

yes

[velvet otter]

you have watched? Is it good?

[willow gorge]

It's pretty good yeah

[vague pollen]

I always wonder what it woulda been like if Montoya stayed at Williams in 05

Bc while the car didn't have as much raw pace as the Mclaren or Renault

It was still good enough to consistently finish on the podium

And Webber while he was good, still had a tendency to over drive especially as he was fresh outta basically constantly doing that in Jaguar

Heidfeld was good, above average but he was overrated AF imo & wasn't consistent enough

[distant garnet]

Well,Montoya was easily cooked by Kimi and even without being present in two of the races (where he got replaced by Pedro de La Rosa),he still would be very below in points against Kimi

And Williams was already at the start of that phase where they were starting to swing back to midfielder positions and having to use underpowered and slight decent engines in their cars again

[paper fossil]

Sam Michael always said Webber should have won Europe 2005 I think

Might have a case with the problems Kimi and Fernando had

[paper fossil]

“I couldn't count on the help of the drivers, because Giancarlo Baghetti was relatively inexperienced in F1 and Phil Hill, despite being pleasant in human terms, was no different from all his colleagues: he would never admit that they won the previous year due to the engine.” - Mauro Forghieri

[vague pollen]

Ye but that was bc Montoya was driving a car built for Kimi who had a completely different style to him

Like Juan had a pretty traditional aggressive style but Kimi had a kinda half smooth, half aggressive style that drivers like Hakkinen & J Villeneuve used

Like there was no way Mclaren were gonna give Juan a easy time, especially being 1 of their main rivals since 2001😅

And Kimi was their clear number 1

[vague pollen]

I mean like if he stayed but only for 2005 & then woulda left after

Ye in 2006 Williams were 100% going to shit & there was 0 way back for them until 2014

But remember Mclaren wanted to get rid of DC for a while, like they tried in 99 with Villeneuve but failed & in 05 they finally got that chance again & capitalised on it

[river cave]

Brundle should've won a race that year

Belgium was really Schumacher outplaying Brundle by pitting a lap early

but Canada was really a lost oppotunity

[past drift]

what about 94

[river cave]

I can't think of a moment in 1994 where he had the ability to win

The McLaren-Peugeot just wasn't in that front end fight and it was usually a Benetton or Williams winning

[past drift]

he had 2 or 3 pods that year

[river cave]

Adelaide might have been his best chance

although still, Berger being 2 and a half seconds behind Mansell compared to Brundle's 50 behind Berger

[river cave]

Michael's last Monza with Ferrari

also GIGAKUBICA

[hardy ravine]

where he announced his retirement

[past drift]

hmmm what did the channel say..

[river cave]

I was 3 at the time, i wouldn't really consider it modern

[past drift]

🤷‍♂️

[paper fossil]

“Surtees did not get on well with his British colleagues, partly because of his prickly personality and partly because he came from motorcycle racing.”

“On top of that, he literally lived with Ferrari, with which he identified himself. He never ever left the group, which was unique for a driver…”

“In my opinion, the two [Surtees and Clark] were equal as far as speed is concerned, but some times John was colder than his rival”

- Mauro Forghieri

[past drift]

the two, him and Clark? and Hill?

[paper fossil]

clark and surtees

sorry

added to the quote now in case of confusion

[past drift]

ah thanks!

[vague pollen]

I mean tbf u can kinda expect it from 50s & 60s drivers

It seems like most drivers up until the late 70s - early 80s were jus naturally pretty arrogant & ego driven bc of the greed most of them had to win

And probs also paranoia that they were driving total death traps but jus had to literally grit their teeth & risk accidental suicide😅

[paper fossil]

nah surtees is just one of a kind

hard taskmaster like graham hill but less of the fun side

[past drift]

Stewart says there was huge camaraderie then

[paper fossil]

you know people shit on inoue all the time

but how the hell did max papis only outqualify him 4-3 in their head to head

for that i might arguably say he is the worse gp driver

[vague pollen]

Bruh are u srsly tryna call Max Papis "the worst GP driver"

[paper fossil]

dear god man there is worse people than those two in the 90's

belmondo and adams come to mind

[idle gale]

After seeing VCARB's special livery for the Las Vegas GP, I had flashbacks to the Red Bull Petronas Saubers

[past drift]

Deletraz?

[vague pollen]

100% there is ye bc in CART, Max was 1 of the guys who made shit difficult for Montoya😅

[past drift]

ye but thats not f1

maybe the cart cars pf the days suited him a lot more

[vague pollen]

I mean CART wasn't exactly easy tho like look at Montoya's battles with him, Castroneves & Kanaan in 1999 & 2000

Like especially Cleveland 2000 that was 1 of Juan's hardest races he drove

Also proved how good Moreno was & how fucked over he got in F1 after Briatore booted him

[past drift]

well he was in backmarker teams before Benetton

he had an opportunity at a very good team, did a good job with it, got sacked and couldn’t find another great seat. he didn’t even finish the season with Jordan did he

[vague pollen]

Exactly so the fact he got a podium during that time jus says how much he deserved more midfield & front running seats

[past drift]

deserving isnt a verb that belongs in the sports sadly

[vague pollen]

Well a guy like him with his experience & also getting a podium in the pre high nose Benetton

He definitely didn't deserve to be at Andrea Moda, Forti & all the other shitty Italian backmarker teams that he used as a lifeline😅

Like he shoulda had a seat at somewhere like Ligier or Jordan

[edgy aspen]

F1 isn't about deserving and never really was (maybe in the era of gentlemen drivers?). There are many reasons drivers get places that do not have to do with skill, the most common one is having money.

About Max Papis, the fact still remains that with the same car as one of the worst f1 drivers of the 90's he barely managed to outperform him.

There are plenty of drivers who perform well in another category but poorly on F1.

[paper fossil]

Moreno was definitely decent

But being kicked out for Michael that is like totally fine

Shame Eddie didn’t think a lot of him but it is not like 1992 or 93 were great for them anyway

[paper fossil]

Papis career is funny though his Indycar career has like no business being that good considering what he had done before

[vague pollen]

Ok in all fairness tho it was literally his first full year in F1

Bc he was literally only a test driver the year before & as far as I remember he barely even had that many races in 94

[past drift]

who, Papis? he did 0 race in 94

[edgy aspen]

In F1, unless you have certain advantages, you have to take the opportunities you get. There are promising drivers that don't even get the chance to try and prove themselves

[vague pollen]

I remember there being a onboard of him at Adelaide

Ah no ok my bad that was Christian Fittipaldi

[sterile sand]

Jordans wing from Monaco 2001 totally goofy

Also Arrows front wing from Monaco 2001

“There was no time to think, I just reacted on pure instinct. I lifted off and made a big move to the right and […] missed the guy by this much. Tom was running right in my slipstream and he had no chance.” Hans Jochim Stuck

[last burrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj0yt_FuTzM&ab_channel=CiaronSmith schumacher 06 mugello testing

[vague pollen]

Man it never fails to jus look so weird seeing Michael testing for Ferrari post 2006

Also the fact that he wasn't even meant to retire & end his career as well

Like he was full on supposed to compete in 2007 but he jus didn't wanna be Raikkonen's teammate

[desert plover]

Is that why he retired? because he didn't want to be teammates with Kimi?

[vague pollen]

That & also Kimi's manager got him out of renewing his contract for Mclaren & somehow got him Schumacher's seat before he renewed his contract for 07

I don't remember the exact details of it bc it's been a long ass time since I saw a vid on that but in very basic words that's what happened

[distant garnet]

Well,people say Montezemolo forced Schumi to retire to open the door to Kimi

[vague pollen]

Ye and Kimi was probs desperate to leave Mclaren bc of how much disappointment & anger he had from losing tons of races & 2 titles to engine & gearbox DNF's

[distant garnet]

Though it can also be attributed to people like Todt,Brawn,Byrne leaving to seek other teams or retire and go for another area of work

[vague pollen]

I was always surprised by how Pat Symonds never joined the dream team

Always stayed loyal to Benetton right through to the end of the Briatore era

[paper fossil]

Pat never got invited to join in a role he wanted

he was just going to be race engineer for Michael again at Ferrari and he didn't fancy that

which is fair because he became TD after Brawn left at the end of 1996

[vague pollen]

Benetton in 96 - 98 were underrated AF

[paper fossil]

were they?

maybe 96 the car was good enough to win with a driver like Michael

but the FW18 was flatly destroying the compeitition

[vague pollen]

Imo Alesi & Berger did way better than ppl give them credit for bc they were basically having 2 Montoya 2005 seasons

[paper fossil]

hmm

nah i don't actually think so

[vague pollen]

The B196 was designed for a weird half smooth half aggressive style that only Hakkinen, Schumacher & occasionally Jacques Villeneuve had tho

[paper fossil]

thing is montoya in 2005 for bits here and there could actually claim a challenge to the world championship

berger and alesi missed opportunties

although Alesi only because of others misfortune prior

such as at Monaco

when Hill was easily winning the GP

berger germany

[vague pollen]

Well ye bc the half smooth half aggressive driving style wasn't as new in 2005

[paper fossil]

but like apart from that they were meh

Alesi had a pretty good year considering

but it was a mistake to get those two

[vague pollen]

Like by 2005 ppl worked out how to use a style like Raikkonen & Schumachers

[paper fossil]

Alesi was fine to get like very good driver

but not paying for both he and Berger

[vague pollen]

Ye both him & Gerhard had completely different styles to Michael & they had to drive cars that were both built for him

Like u gotta remember in 95 only Michael & Hakkinen were mixing smooth & aggressive driving styles consistently as their default style

[paper fossil]

Michael didn't like this car either

that started from the B194 btw

it wasn't a B195 thing

[vague pollen]

Alesi & Berger were jus straight up aggressive drivers

[paper fossil]

but he being the talent he was

just drove around the problems

i don't feel sorry for Berger or Alesi

Berger was over the brow of the hill in terms of his performance at that stage of his career

Alesi had a good 1996

but he was frustrating

more so in 1997

like when he completely forgot to do his pit stop entry incorrect

[vague pollen]

Debatable bc Eddie Jordan has admitted "I would love to say I hired him for talent but that wouldn't be true. I just needed money desperately and he had it."

[paper fossil]

and gave the win to Coulthard

[paper fossil]

nice because it is not like he ever actually got much money

from Schumacher at all

the original sponsor placements and deals Michael wanted to have on his overalls and car got rejected by EJ

and he didn't have any legal contract past the 1 race

Eddie Jordan talks so much shit and I love him for it

[vague pollen]

Idk he was back on form in 97 bc he got pole at Monza & comfortably led Melbourne until that moment

[paper fossil]

what

he literally forgot to pit

[paper fossil]

already explained monza

he screwed that race up

[vague pollen]

Yes bc of a radio problem

[paper fossil]

from what was a good chance of a win

[paper fossil]

they put out pit boards and he missed them

this was clearly on him

he must have known everyone else had stopped so he needed to as well

i think the defending here for Alesi is a bit over the top

he had a good 1996

but 1997 was littered with typical Alesi mood swings of performance

and he was barely quicker than an aging Berger

i think this was rather set in stone in 1991 mind you

everyone expected him to go to ferrari and be as quick as prost

he never was close to him at all

prost crushed him

[vague pollen]

Idk abt "good" bc allegedly he had a mental breakdown in that year & whenever he had mechanical or electrical problems he always looked insanely pissed😅

[paper fossil]

his performances were good in 1996

podiums in all but the 3 gp he finished

[vague pollen]

Either way tho Benetton as a team still weren't bad even in 98

[paper fossil]

two top 5's in those other

[paper fossil]

yeah

i mean they were

quite bad

the car had problems

i think ideal for them was at least having bridgestones but considering how good those tyres were they were underperforming

[vague pollen]

Nah the 98 Benetton was a underrated AF car like the fact that they were still clearly somehow developing their engines & making a way better car than Williams

That car was comfortable AF being pushed rlly hard

The 98 Williams is probs the most unstable car I've ever seen

[paper fossil]

wasn't really better than the williams

considering they had the goodyears

and bridgestones for benetton

the better tyres

and they finished behind in the wcc

Fisichella was amazing at Monaco but that is about it

they relied on him dragging the car around

[vague pollen]

Ah but why were Williams consistently behind at most races

That engine onboard sounds identical to the 94 - 97 Renault engine

[paper fossil]

i've read the Benetton rebels book

they describe 98-01 as a complete shock to them

from where they were

all the interviewed staff of the time

mostly symonds who after all was TD for all of those latter cars

and quite clearly says they had issues

particularly with some of the things Nick Wirth put on the car

[vague pollen]

Ah yes and the issues were so bad that the 98 Benetton was the main car consistently battling the Mclaren's & Ferrari's for 4th & 5th at almost every race😅

While the Williams was sliding around getting overtaken by Saubers & sometimes even Stewarts

And they had Newey's aero to play around with when evolving the 97 car into 98 regs

It took them a entirely new chassis & wheelbase to fix their problems

While the Benetton was a straight continued eveolution of the B197

[paper fossil]

nah it was different

if you take a look at the cars it is wirths first stamp on post byrne benetton

[vague pollen]

Looking at the sidepods, airbox, nose & wings ye no😅

[paper fossil]

stub nose

[vague pollen]

Especially the sidpod shapes & the fact they painted the bottom of the airbox black to try & hide the fact it was unchanged

[paper fossil]

tapered sidepods

i mean it was new set of regulations to begin with

the b196 and b197 leant from the 95 and 94 yeah

but not the 198

[vague pollen]

From 95 - 99 they always used pointed tipped noses tho

[vague pollen]

No the B194 was the final evolution of the 89 & 90 car

Totally different airbox & nose design

Looks like it even had a shorter wheelbase as well

[paper fossil]

errr

[vague pollen]

The B195 - B198's airboxes is so much less steep towards the rear wing

[paper fossil]

this is not how bryne describes it

they did a lot different in 94 and that is why he says it is his favourite car in his time there

or just in general

[vague pollen]

Bruh they all used Ford v8's and literally look at the 92 - 93 cars & the sidepods & airbox of the 91 car

[paper fossil]

he didn't care a lot for the 95 by comparison

back to 98 however most of the interest in benetton came off track

like those two podiums in succession were good but fisi added like only three further points after canada

it was a step down from 1996-1997 as it had been a step down for benetton in late 1995

like the williams was already the quicker car

Michael won Aida purely on strategy rather than pure pace

as an example

in 99 they tried this torque transfer system as well

which just disturbed all the aero and the consistency of the system was poor too

worked well in testing but didn't during the year

Nick Wirth was a smart guy but he didn't apply things in exactly the most sensible ways

and this is something his career is littered with such as the design of the 2010 Manor car being literally done only with CFD

which is is just insane and didn't work

these are all key things that are like diametrically opposed to Byrnes line of thinking with cars btw

centre of gravity/weight and aerodynamic balance

i think high nose

yeah about it

maybe airbox but i swear the intake went to an ovular shape in 98 or 99

b194 lends itself to some Barnard ideas but quite frankly he never actually properly designed a Benetton car because the B191 which Symonds and other guys returning from the failed Reynard project after TWR took over engineering hated was just a Gordon Kimball car really

and no one rated Kimball

bits here and there but the Barnard and Benetton adventure almost killed the team

B190 i think is far removed from B191, 192, 193 and 194

it had this prost nose characteristic which Barnard hated

[vague pollen]

Oh ye the race that Fisichella literally led a massive amount of & made Schumacher struggle to catch up to him during

[vague pollen]

They literally had no support from Renault for engine development

[vague pollen]

Again the bottom part was painted to make it look like a full circle

Bc they were tryna hide the embarrassment of using 97 engines that had fuck all development

[paper fossil]

so what

they still had fundamental issues with the chassis

why do you think they made all the changes they did

that is just a sorry ass excuse

once it did have renault support in 2000 and 2001 it didn't do a hell of a lot

[vague pollen]

They were faster than the literal reigning champions from 97 who had to already adapt the 96 car during 97 bc Newey left?🤣💀

Like that car was comfortable with being pushed insanely hard & had multiple wheel to wheel battles with the Mclarens & Ferrari's

The Williams's best chance was at Hockenheim

[paper fossil]

they weren't

they slightly benefited early from the better bridgestones

but it didn't last long

[paper fossil]

more clear chance of anything than benetton performances in 1998 tbf

[vague pollen]

Hmmm Monaco 98 Schumscher vs Wurz but apparently "they weren't" battling the Ferrari's

[vague pollen]

Canada?!?!

[paper fossil]

that was a virtual lead

[vague pollen]

Fisichella leading tons of that race?

[paper fossil]

in real pace

they weren't there

as explained by them in fact

[vague pollen]

Howcome Michael was right behind him & struggled like crazy to pass him for ages

[paper fossil]

anyway the stats are there

williams were faster in 1998

[vague pollen]

Bruh u need to desperately watch the onboards of 98 Williams's tho bc that car was not good

[vague pollen]

It took them literally redesigning the entire floor & wheelbase for this shit to happen

And even then they still were nervous AF abt Benetton catching them

Jacques admitted it & Patrick Head even admitted it in a interview during the 98 Canadian GP

He had to say "it's not quite a complete redesign but the car is definitely not the same as it was"

And again they had Newey's aero to adapt which they successfully did in 97 bc they won that title

Newey had 0 input on the 97 car

[paper fossil]

it wasn't good no

but the benetton wasn't either

it wasn't that good in 1997 to begin with

that car had issues unless it was in the low downforce config

hence poor qualifying results in the early part of the season

[vague pollen]

I mean it was pretty comfortable being pushed bc there's several onboards of it being driven pretty goddamn hard & the balance never goes off

[paper fossil]

and peaks at germany and italy

[paper fossil]

i think that is the difference in drivers

giancarlo was smooth

but also a driver who prefered a front ended car

it is why he struggled in 2005-2007

[vague pollen]

On throttle yes but his steering inputs & downshifts were pretty snappy & aggressive

And Wurz was 1 of those guys who mixed smooth & aggressive steering styles with totally smooth throttle & gearshifts

So I guess it woulda been easier for them to use similar setups for both cars

[paper fossil]

it got worse for sure

98 was by no means awful

but senior people at benetton felt they had just fallen back to where they had been

yeah engine this and that

but it wouldn't have put them with ferrari or mclaren

even if it was developed

[vague pollen]

But it did like during most races the Williams's were behind

Most of the time they only got through by luck bc of Fisi & Wurz jus racing others way too hard & allowing Frentzen & Villeneuve to catch them

Like Williams had the same engine but massively struggled to follow other cars & the Benetton had a piss easy time at getting a tow up to the rear of the Ferrari & Mclaren

Even when they were in front of a Ferrari they tended to pull away pretty decently as well

[waxen tartan]

.

[idle gale]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VMLV9mdm20&ab_channel=AidanMillward

[past drift]

i like how bizarre the 310 looks

[oblique dock]

It looked worse with the high nose compared to how it initially looked

[past drift]

yeah

[idle gale]

When the Italian raging bull ambitiously took part in F1 but ended up being rubbish

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yG-cf-iK5w&ab_channel=AidanMillward

[past drift]

Mauro mentioned

[vague pollen]

The only Italian backmarkers who never signed Roberto Moreno

[vague pollen]

Ye but there's no doubt the F310B, F300 & F399 were better😅

Like the F310A jus looks like the 412T2 going through puberty in a awkward ass way🤣💀

[past drift]

i like the detached sidepods actually

[past drift]

the awkward most thing is removing 2 cylinders and changing red hues 🥴

[hardy ravine]

Michael always had a good car in Ferrari since 97

[paper fossil]

Forghieri my beloved

[vague pollen]

Ye the shit ppl say abt him "having the worst car" is BS bc both Ferrari's tended to always be in the top 5

And the Mercedes engine still wasn't powerful enough jus yet like that years Mclaren was inconsistent & underpowered AF

[paper fossil]

i mean in 97 they were more unreliable

of the lost victories i think michael only fell foul of his own misfortune before the mclarens did once

which was at silverstone with the wheel bearing or whatever it was again

the 1997 and 98 ferraris were pretty good but also too on the understeery side for michael

[river cave]

The 97 Ferrari was not a bad car in the slightest, it just had the two issues of being based on the F310 which was mid, and the fact that overall, the Williams and (imo) the Benetton were better

[vague pollen]

Ye ppl forget that when u see the positioning of the sidepod intakes, airbox & also how the front & rear wings are barely changed from the F310A

The only major differences on the F310B was basically jus a new body shell & reliability patches to the engine & gearbox

Also holy shit how did Sauber fix all the reliability problems from the 96 Ferrari v10😅

Like that 97 Sauber seemed like a pretty goddamn reliable car

[desert plover]

Schumacher helped Sauber with their balancing engine issues

[paper fossil]

the williams yes

the bentton no

[desert terrace]

Milk-carton

[distant garnet]

Not really,but again Schumacher won 5 races and ended the season with 78pts (would be 2nd in the WDC without the DSQ) while Irvine had no wins and finished 8th with 24pts without Schumi DSQ

[hardy ravine]

its better than checo in 2024 though

[river cave]

But, one is Schumacher, the other is Irvine

Irvine was basically there to get a paycheck and be a bona fide Number 2

Ferrari gave up in 1999 when Michael broke his leg; it was only after they saw how much of a bottle job Hakkinen was doing that Irvine actually had a chance did they take some of the 2000 upgrades and slap it onto the 1999 car

but there is also the conspiracy theory that the Nurburgring tyre change debarcle was intentional to basically ensure he couldn't win

not that it mattered anyway; Michael did what Michael does in Suzuka that year by letting Hakkinen get away and then doing a half ass attempt to catch up to him

[oblique dock]

Wrong channel??

[river cave]

https://tenor.com/view/huh-cat-huh-m4rtin-huh-huh-meme-what-cat-gif-5834484041415217257

[oblique dock]

Uh……

[past drift]

the message has been deleted since

[elfin siren]

1999 Ferrari Car driven by their Last British Driver, Eddie Irvine

Lewis will be the next British Driver to drive for Ferrari since Eddie Irvine

[oblique dock]

Eddie could've won 1999

[elfin siren]

It's his Last Season with Ferrari overall

[south tree]

Yeah, really close

[river cave]

Ehmm, actually 🤓

It's Ollie

[oblique dock]

Ollie Bearman.

Yup

[desert plover]

Yes Eddie almost had it

I think it was Japan that made him lose it

[past drift]

Mika finished 1min ahead of him so yes probably

[paper fossil]

more to it than japan

where he wouldn't have had a chance to beat hakkinen anyway

he gained at least 30 points on mika purely from mechanicals

surely that would have been enough to win a wdc for your typical 2nd placed driver

[past drift]

he had 2 wins handed to him by his teammates as well

[paper fossil]

I think he was just inexcusably slow in most of the GP he didn’t maximise

Barely any mistakes beyond Hungary

Qualifying in Japan and I suppose colliding with DC at Montreal but he ended up 2nd anyway because of HHF’s brake failure

3rd actually

So maybe a lost chance there

So much has to go right for a driver of that calibre to be close or win a wdc

Down to even the possibility you are the favourite like Damon Hill in 1996

So then it is inevitable because the car advantage trumps the inherent talent gap

[idle gale]

Ralf was sure flying off the line.

Literally

[mighty ginkgo]

did everyones race results get shifted up 1 place after schumi got disqualified?

[distant garnet]

Nope,only championship position

[mighty ginkgo]

oh

how about the constructors

[distant garnet]

No change

[mighty ginkgo]

ah

[idle gale]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8nQ6MCoNMQ&ab_channel=AidanMillward

[hidden drift]

the race that gave him the nickname ''rain king''

[paper fossil]

That Formula 1 season showed that my confidence in the Ferrari was well-founded. But I had not been able to foresee the events that would torture Chris Amon GP after the GP. It was grotesque: the world of motor racing doesn't accept "bad luck", it only speaks of "something that was not foreseen". But in 1968, Amon started from pole three times and eight times from the front row of the grid, obtaining just a second place in Britain. He was in the lead in Spain by over 20 seconds, but in the finale the Bendix fuel pump broke, a component used by the aircraft industry and well-known for being indestructible. When Giulio Borsari went to retrieve the car out on the circuit, he hit the errant pump with a tool and it started to work perfectly again: he even drove the 312 back to the pits!

- Mauro Forghieri

[past drift]

poor lad

ive never seen his bad luck described that accurately

he made the impossible possible

against himself sadly

[feral escarp]

@quiet radish

[desert plover]

Schumacher testing the F2007

I think he would've won the championship that year if he didn't retire

[past drift]

yes most definitely

[elfin siren]

1985 Williams Car driven by Keke Rosberg

1985 is where Keke Rosberg win the Australian Grand Prix in Adelaide

[paper fossil]

should have won 3 gp in it really

Brands in addition to the earlier one at Detroit

[idle gale]

Ah yes. The Yamaha engines

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkyjR-R3DdU&ab_channel=AidanMillward

[hardy ravine]

no

[desert plover]

yes

[distant garnet]

The last Yamaha engine from 1997 was literally only better than the Tyrrell, the Minardi and Mastercard Lola supplied Ford and Hart engines

Underpowered,overblown and also underrevving

[past drift]

wonder how they would have fared, had they paired with Toyota as they often do

maybe they did when Toyota finally joined?

[paper fossil]

I think it was described by Stefano Modena as a sewing machine

[river cave]

It's important to note the Yamaha engine had a part to play in why Damon didn't win Hungary that year

The tyres did 99% of the work, but good ol unreliability gave it to Jacques

[past drift]

but what broke was on the engine?

[river cave]

Hydraullic pump

jammed the car into 3rd gear

also meant the thottle was sticking

[past drift]

and the hydraulic pump is part of the engine? or it's out of it

[river cave]

All i could find is they said there was a leak in the system somewhere

and once it ran out, the throttle and gearbox started to seize

[past drift]

ye many things are operated by hydraulics

[elfin siren]

1996 Ferrari F310 as seen in Hungarian Grand Prix

First Season to see Eddie Irvine driving in Scarlet Ferrari

[mighty ginkgo]

and mclaren fans say the 2015 car had the worst engine in f1 history

[desert plover]

I mean Damon almost won a race with a Yamaha engine

Life W12 engine would probably be the worst F1 engine in history

[mighty ginkgo]

true

that thing was ~10-15 seconds off the pace

[thorn raven]

Anyone want to see the F1 cars i saw

[dark hill]

Who saved that brabham brick 💀

[thorn raven]

Dont even know lol 🤣

[dark hill]

Sir Jackie tyrrell my beloved

[thorn raven]

Real

Keke Rosbergs car was there

[dark hill]

Hell yeah

[thorn raven]

And Mansells 86 and 92 williams

Hills 94 and 96 car

It was sad to see the 94 car

[dark hill]

What could've been

[thorn raven]

Yea

Rest easy Ayrton 🕊️

Forgot about these pictures

My dad sent me them

[river cave]

Irvine being swollowed by the car

[elfin siren]

Because it's more Bigger

[oblique dock]

I’d say it’s due to the raised cockpit openings that were implemented for ‘96

[faint trellis]

Hard to even tell that there’s a driver in there lol

[past drift]

what museum is this?

[fleet wigeon]

What place is this from?

[thorn raven]

Its from a museum in Donington

[vague pollen]

Well it's weird bc he wasn't actually supposed to retire in 06

He was supposed to drive in 2007 but didn't want Kimi as a teammate

[vague pollen]

I guess u could also say the Prost/Ligier was on a similar level to the Benetton & Williams

Also I gotta say Mugen were pretty fuckin good for making that Honda v10 as powerful as it was

[past drift]

hard to say when their best driver was Panis

[vague pollen]

Idk abt Olivier being the "best"

Trulli did have some pretty good moments

[past drift]

in 97 for that particular team he was

Trulli was fast but still too inexperienced

his Austrian race was great, not gonna lie

[paper fossil]

He was quicker than Panis

Pins or no pins in his legs

Doesn't seem awfully surprising given Herbert with one GP made him look poor and he nearly lost his drive for 1996

[past drift]

maybe trulli got really unlucky in 97 then

[paper fossil]

Well

In the GP he didn't finish he would usually destroy him in pace

But those not being accounted for: Silvestone and the Hungaroring make it appear as if Nakano was quicker

The previous year, we had to lose Chris Amon, which was a disappointment for me both from the human standpoint and for his sensitivity that would have been useful in testing. I remember that he visited me in November '69 and he was rather disheartened. He had signed a pre-contract for 1970 and I suggested he should be confident because the development of the 312 B was going well. Instead, he confessed to me that he was tired of Ferrari. Unfortunately, he had been negatively influenced by the first test of the 312 B at 8 am on Friday 5 September at the Modena Autodrome. His general impression was excellent, but at the time we were still solving problems caused by the bronze bearings and the test ended with a breakdown. There was nothing I could do to make him change his mind, yet we only needed time: initially, the 312 B was a hard nut to crack, but later the fulfilment was a great feeling.

[elfin siren]

2006 Honda Car seen in Hungarian Grand Prix driven by Jenson Button in his First Grand Prix winning

[vague pollen]

I forget was this BAR/Honda's 1st win?

Or did they get one in 2004

[elfin siren]

Jenson Button First Race Win actually back in 2006 Hungarian Grand Prix

That is when Michael Schumacher and Fernando Alonso out of the Race Both

[woven zinc]

yeah they took their first win in 2006, they didn't win in 2004

[vague pollen]

Goddamn it's kinda crazy they didn't get a win in 2004

Bc they got a few poles that year right?

[woven zinc]

only one I think

yeah only one at Imola

[vague pollen]

And almost another 1 at Canada

If Sato didn't bin it at the WOC chicane

[oblique dock]

At least he got a podium at Indianapolis

[vague pollen]

True

I always wondered if Jordan coulda recovered if they still had Honda engines in 2003 & 2004

Bc the BAR was still clearly a evolution of the 2001 & 2002 cars

And let's be honest the 2001 - 2002 BAR's weren't exactly the best cars😅

And from onboards they didn't look that stable either at least compared to the Jordan's

[elfin siren]

This is what cause Michael Schumacher to lost his Race Win in 1994 Belgian Grand Prix as the Skid Block is found to be Excessively Wear

Michael's Disqualification was the Last Time we had a Race Winner gets disqualified after the Race until George Russell 30 Years Later at the same Circuit

[paper fossil]

Technically speaking Schumacher and Coulthard were both briefly disqualified from Brazil 95

[elfin siren]

But they get reinstated to their Position though

[round swift]

12 days of classic F1 cars
Day 1: Williams FW25 (or 2003 Williams F1 Car)

In my end 2005 or below is classic

[iron shadow]

baffling

[round swift]

12 days of classic F1 Cars
Day 2: Jordan 198 (or 1998 Jordan F1 Car)

[steady trellis]

https://fxtwitter.com/nascarman_rr/status/1867550367023804560

[desert plover]

Michael Schumacher (Ferrari 126 C2/B), Fiorano 1999

It was the first time Michael had driven a turbocharged F1 car and it took him by surprise: "I did not feel very comfortable as I was scared of damaging what is in fact a piece of history," he said.
"But most of all I was terrified! These cars struck me as terribly dangerous. They are only 16 years old, but they seem to belong to another era."

[oblique dock]

Sir Stirling Moss in the Brabham BT52

[round swift]

12 days of classic cars
Day 3: Williams FW14 (or 1991 Williams F1 car)

[paper fossil]

Interesting modifications to an early 1976 T2 being presented

Semi faired front-wheels

[past drift]

wonder why they didn't keep it, it reduces outwash so that's good isn't it

[vague pollen]

Been thinking, if he lived or survived the crash at Spa 1985

If he got a good seat in F1, could he have been a threat to drivers like Mansell, Senna & Prost?

[past drift]

very likely

[river cave]

Supposedly, he had a contract with Ferrari

That's a big supposedly

[vague pollen]

If that's true it woulda been interesting to see if he had enough patience for them

Bc as we all know they didn't get good again until like 1989 - 1990 & again around 1993 - 1995

[past drift]

they weren't bad in 87 either, just not top of the class

[oblique dock]

Berger managed to snatch wins at Suzuka and Adelaide

Eh, but they were still plagued with many dnf’s leaving them 4th in the WCC

[paper fossil]

bellof was going to ferrari

his death is the only reason johansson remained

very much an enzo type driver

[elfin siren]

Martin Brundle driving in a 1994 McLaren

[river cave]

Is this about 5 seconds before his car blew up at Silverstone?

[elfin siren]

No actually

[meager pewter]

ngl I love the MP4/9

Looks wise anyway

[round swift]

12 days of classic F1 cars
Day 4 (oh boy here we go): Ferarri F2004 (or 2004 ferarri F1 car)

[vague pollen]

I swear that has to a be a record for the quickest DNF to ever happen

And I ain't counting cars that stall on the grid bc that's a DNS

[river cave]

1999 Australian Grand Prix

the race didn't even start before both the Stewarts blew up

[paper fossil]

if that counts as a DNF

have to start something before you can finish it

[vague pollen]

It seems like that was a big problem back in the v10, v12 & v8 era

Engines overheating on the grid

[desert plover]

DNS like Prost spinning off the formation lap at imola 1991

[river cave]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tn6SW_owND8

[past drift]

ohhh

[fleet wigeon]

Alonso driving Ferrari F2004

[round swift]

12 days of classic F1 cars
Day 5: Brabham BT60Y (or 1991 Brabham F1 car)

[vague pollen]

Warning: Flavio Briatore detected nearby

Do NOT tell him who makes the engines

Otherwise u end up with Mugen Honda engines that are actually meant to be Minardi's the following year

[past drift]

F

for Minardi.

[willow gorge]

pretty sure Minardi starts with a M

[past drift]

yes

[serene gull]

I have been summoned

[idle gale]

The Ligier JS29 with the Alfa Romeo engine. Which they didn't use instead opting for a rebadged BMW engine

[vague pollen]

The BMW engine that no one knows how much BHP it rlly had

Bc like Aidan Millward says, it seems to keep growing in HP numbers😅

[vague pollen]

Oh Minardi were always taking L's tho haha

Like when they got scammed for a "new" Ferrari engine which turned out to be a year old

And then a goddamn Ford v8 ended up being better than that Ferrari engine the year after😅💀

[paper fossil]

I think Arnoux criticised the engine and then its parent company Fiat decided it only wanted Ferrari competing in Formula One

But it was a deal up until that point

Ligier didn’t exactly choose to go with the Megatrons in the first place

[vague pollen]

It's weird tho bc I swear the Marlboro Alfa Romeo's were pretty good right?

Like Idk if they were ever capable of titles but some of them were definitely front runners

[paper fossil]

Err not for years by that point

The team was beyond a joke in 1985 for instance

[vague pollen]

Ye but De Cesaris led for ages in Spa

I forget the year but that was 1 of the few times he wasn't shit😅

I remember now it was 83

[past drift]

ye he led for about half of the race

[vague pollen]

And the best part is he did it from overtaking at the start

And he even qualified at the front as well

So it was all merit with 0 luck needed

[paper fossil]

The Ducarouge car was good

Engine was far from ideal initially

It had decent results but not consistent ones

The V8 turbo was one of the first engines to hit the snag with fuel consumption figures

And that was part of bigger problems it faced from 84-85

They weren’t front runners across a whole season even in 82-83

[vague pollen]

So u mean they were more like how Renault were in 2003 - 2004

Kinda half front runner but half midfielder

[grizzled spindle]

First person to reply to me with a pic will be my pfp for a day

[paper fossil]

Well Renault got more podiums

Top 5’s

2 wins in those 2 seasons

And between two drivers rather than one

[tired mica]

Hmmm

Imma ping you in F1 general

[grizzled spindle]

I wonder what you're gonna pick

[hardy ravine]

prost could have been an 8 time world champion

1983, 1984, 1988, 1990

if the renault was more reliable...

[past drift]

i would wager he had more chances of that in 82 than 1990, cause the Ferrari was reliable

but it was a bit slower than the mclaren outright

[vague pollen]

I'm wonderin tho would he have had a chance at 82

If Gilles survived the Zolder crash & lived

Bc I like to think if he survived then he coulda potentially had that title

[past drift]

we’re adding even more ifs ontop of ifs?

[round swift]

12 days of classic F1 cars
Day 6: Lotus 107B (or 1993 Lotus F1 car)
Halfway through yippee

[paper fossil]

I’d say on the balance of things Prost had his fair share of mechanicals in 83 that Piquet also had during the season

But he made more mistakes

[past drift]

appparently, later in the season, when Brabham started cheating with the BASF fuel, Renault tried to catch up on power which made the car less reliable

had they not done it, it's likely Prost would have won by doing what he already knew best: nursing his car and letting his rivals drop like flies with fuming engines

as usual though, ifs and buts

[paper fossil]

Allegedly

At the GP’s official testing on the fuel the octane level was within the regulations

[past drift]

yeah right. allegedly.

[desert plover]

Lol no

[tight pasture]

ok

[hardy ravine]

even if pironi didn't have the crash, he could have won it

[vague pollen]

Man here's a interesting alternate reality scenario

Gilles Villeneuve survives the Zolder crash & competes all the way until let's say the early 90s

And Bellof also survives his Spa crash

Idk if they'd be able to compete for titles from 86 - 88

But I'm wonderin would u have seen a rivalry as intense as Senna & Prost around 89 - 91?

[paper fossil]

Villeneuve surviving Zolder would take an ounce of self preservation

Something he seemed incapable of most of the time

I actually don’t know if Bellof was that great technically speaking so at Ferrari it is basically a fight against Alboreto who slowly fell out of favour with the Scuderia when the likes of Migeot and Postlethwaite left

I mean he isn’t winning world championships in any of the Ferrari cars in that period

The odd grand prix perhaps

I mean in this scenario is Pironi avoiding his crash or recovering from a slightly less serious one?

Because it is sort of the same thing again

All of that prevents Tambay and then consequently Arnoux too

Villeneuve had a contract till the end of 1983 but they wanted Alboreto the moment his Tyrrell contract run out so that whole year was Tambay vs Arnoux

That collection of instances in 1982 just influences everything else to a great degree that means it is hard to make a conclusion

[vague pollen]

Well from what I understand Bellof had tons of natural talent

Like on the same level as G Villeneuve & Senna

But he had the same problems Gilles Villeneuve, Jacques Villeneuve, Sato, Alesi & Montoya had

In that he had a tendency to overdrive & jus got over excited too easily

I mean that's what cost him his life

Also I jus realised

Does Roberto Moreno have the record for the longest career spent at backmarker teams

Like even Benetton in 1990 were only kinda midfielders bc it wasn't till 91 - 92 that they rlly became kinda part time front runners

[river cave]

probably

i mean the dude drove for Andrea Moda

[vague pollen]

And Forti

[river cave]

the only thing worse than that team is Life

and, well the less said about Life's driver line up the better

[vague pollen]

Like in Imola 1995 he was 7 seconds slower than Schumacher💀

Like this is Forti's whole time in F1 summed up

[vague pollen]

Basically any of the delusional ass Italian backmarker teams from the late 80s - early 90s

U can safely assume he drove for them

[river cave]

and then the one time he finally got into a decent car

Britore turned around and went "Yeah Roberto about the whole contract thing"

[vague pollen]

Ye but that was only when he got to CART right

And also he deserves more praise for that win at Cleveland 2000

[river cave]

When he moved over to CART he showed decent results

[vague pollen]

Like he was up against some rlly tough competition in CART

[river cave]

when he was at Benetton, the car was decent although he was never going to beat Nelson

it's just that as he was settling into the team, they found a German kid they wanted more

[vague pollen]

Dude competed against Castroneves, Kanaan, Montoya, Paul Tracy

Like if he could win against them

He definitely had some talent to do that

[vague pollen]

And also Briatore wrote the dirtiest loophole into his contract

[river cave]

We don't have to give you a car

[vague pollen]

That he was only signed for a chassis & not a complete car

[river cave]

just the chassis

and then when Piquet complained about it, he told the reserve driver to suit up and sit in his car

i forget who it was

[vague pollen]

Tbf Piquet might not be the most polite guy

And he might also have some racism problems that come from South American culture

But he was a real good friend to Roberto

[river cave]

https://tenor.com/view/nah-really-pug-annoyed-face-seriously-gif-12882751

[vague pollen]

Haha I was jus tryna say it kindly

[river cave]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7dQUd82LRQ

real quote 💀

[vague pollen]

I'm wonderin tho were there any drivers like Moreno before him

Like in the 70s or 80s

Who jus spent years at backmarker teams

Never rlly getting a chance with a good midfielder or front runner team

[meager pewter]

Do we ignore Moreno's CART career?

[past drift]

for the sake of the question, i think it's acceptable

[vague pollen]

Nah we went over that earlier

[meager pewter]

O

[past drift]

he seems like Zanardi who was excellent in CART after going to F1 and failing

[vague pollen]

I mean I'd say it's more than that haha he drove for a non front running team & managed to win on 1 of the hardest tracks

Like ppl write Cleveland off as "oh it's just some chicanes & 2 right handers at the end"

[paper fossil]

He’s a victim of circumstance

Nothing about losing his seat to Schumacher is that bad

[vague pollen]

But Cleveland Airport track is so much harder than most ppl think

Like cars in the race Moreno won were DNFing bc of suspension damage from the bumps

[paper fossil]

Zanardi was really stellar in CART in one concentrated period when he had Mo Nunn as his race engineer

But if you look at his previous F1 stint and European Junior career he was fairly average

Says a lot about the standard of CART to F1 in general even if lets say it was as good as it could have been in the early 90s

[vague pollen]

He jus had the same problem Andretti had in thinking that he could drive F1 cars as hard as CART cars

Which honestly I rlly wish was doable

Bc CART cars can take a hell of a beating

Like they can literally hit a wall & still be ok

[paper fossil]

I mean if you take a look at him at his earlier stint nothing about being easily being beaten by Schumacher is that shocking

He was on a hiding to nothing for sure because they wanted Montoya anyway for later

[vague pollen]

Did he start in Euro or American series's?

Like in his junior days

[paper fossil]

But don’t get it twisted apart from the two CART titles he wasn’t ever that brilliant

[vague pollen]

And he had to beat Jimmy Vasser to get them

[paper fossil]

Vassers 96 is so tinpot though

He wins it by virtually finishing every race

Andretti and Zanardi are within 25 points despite retiring from like 6 more events

[vague pollen]

I always thought maybe Fisichella shoulda ditched F1 around 2002 & gone to CART bc he coulda got a title or 2 over there

Plus it'd be interesting to see him against drivers like Castroneves & Kanaan

[paper fossil]

Don’t think he was that good really

[vague pollen]

Well he was good in midfield cars but for whatever reason jus flopped in front runners

[paper fossil]

Like Castroneves career is totally saved by Greg Moores death and although a great oval driver the frustration of not being able to execute any title campaign and mistakes annoys me

2013 is an abomination

Literally needs Will Power to take out Dixon for him

To even stand a chance

[vague pollen]

Fisichella that is

[paper fossil]

Fisichella

Yes well

Less I say the better

[vague pollen]

Ye but Helio still had tons of talent

Like he was 1 of Montoya's hardest opponents

[paper fossil]

Most of his teammates >

Though

Even Power

[vague pollen]

I think Gil De Ferran is overrated AF

[paper fossil]

Hmmm

I think not

[vague pollen]

Also weird bc he was 1 of the only CART drivers to use a smooth style

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Well I can't remember any wheel to wheel battles with him banging sidepods & wheels against other cars like Montoya & Kanaan had

[paper fossil]

I do like how Castroneves being involved in the IRS stuff is direct consequence of his 2000 contract

Because someone for Penske just rubbed out Moores name

And put Helios in

Forgetting like they needed to draw up another completely different legal document

[vague pollen]

But even in 1999 Montoya struggled to overtake Helio

Like in that early part of his career he was a major threat to Juan

[paper fossil]

So your point is he wasn’t as exciting

It is a bit different

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Well u do kinda prove ur self by actually being able to race & battle other drivers

De Ferran got most of his wins from jus leading most of the race without ever rlly having to fight his way up the grid😅

Like that Valvoline car was always a front runner

And it was 1 of the fastest there was at the time

[paper fossil]

I think he won both his championships while the grids were still decent though

Not saying he’s better than Montoya

But he is than Helio

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No doubt ye it's jus that he drove a bit boring & kinda cautious

Felt like he didn't need to put as much effort into his wins

[paper fossil]

I mean a fine argument not that I agree it matters

The same way it is said about Prost

[vague pollen]

Like I always love seeing drives like Moreno's win in Cleveland

And also Montoya's charge during that race

Moreno's Visteon car was not a front runner at all

But Roberto spent most of his F1 career driving garbage

[paper fossil]

I concur

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Well he knew how to outperform a car well

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I just think using CART as a measure of true ultimate potential is pointless

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Like he spent mosta his F1 career tryna get within 107%😅

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Like he did a respectable job at Benetton

But Michael Schumacher was available so it was a no brainer

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Bruh its 1 of the rawest & purest forms of motorsport

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Also known for weaker grids

Just is

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Reminder that the 1990 Benetton was worse than the 91 - 94 cars

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The pool of talent is weaker

I love it

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Eurotard detected

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👍

We can consider this over

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I'm sorry but if u put Kanaan in a 2000s F1 car

He could embarrass many drivers

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I think that is ridiculous

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Well Michael is easily 1 of the most overrated drivers of all time

Kanaan was tough for Montoya to beat

BAR had him as a test driver in 2004

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Montoya was clearly better

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Ferrari invited him to test multiple times

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And he found a place for himself behind Ralf for 2 of the first years at Williams

Montoya was only that amazing in 03

When Ralf kicked the bucket

In 04 he got matched by Pizzonia in Monza

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Bruh Ralf wasn't forcing Michael off at T1 in Brazil with 0 TC

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Like I think people doing the argument that American based drivers aren’t that poor and using Montoya as an example is ridiculous

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Montoya was also pretty underrated in 2002 since he got a ton of poles against Michael meanwhile Kimi didn't get shit

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His junior career was spent in Europe and he is overrated

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Well watch how they raced him in CART & watch how Montoya never took Schumacher tryna push him off

Schumacher managed to break his front wing failing to force him off at Malaysia T1

And spin at the Dunlop hairpin at Nurburgring 2003 by also failing to push Montoya off

To the point of embarrassingly getting the marshals to push him out

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There is more to it than wheel to wheel

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But wheel to wheel is a big part of skill as a driver

Like there's a reason ppl make fun of Trulli

Good in quali

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Good trope

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But shit at actually racing

[paper fossil]

But it isn’t true

Like if you look at his German F3 title there is many examples of his wheel to wheel racecraft being spot on

By holding off challengers

What can you expect for extracting more out of his car than others in qualifying

And then they are usually useless in the races

The idea that he rattles a great wheel to wheel artist in Villeneuve in one of his first GP’s at Hockenheim in a slower car says enough

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But he didn't do that at Benetton tho like Michael was simply getting what could be expected out of the 91 - 93 Benetton's

[paper fossil]

But people say stupid shit like “oh Jacques was held up by wet lettuce race pace Jarno Trulli”

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Highest running Bridgestone runner at Austria wasn’t he

Led the gp until the second stint

Engine failure

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Eh Idk Jacques did manage to do pretty good at Hockenheim in 2 pretty underpowered car

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Which year was that?

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1997

In his rookie year

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Bridgestone?

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Yes

Prost had the Bridgestone tyres

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Oh right Trulli

Trulli was alright at Prost I don't think he was as good as Panis tho

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Everything points to the opposite

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Like I still think if the crash didn't happen Olivier coulda potentially had that title

Besides Trulli wasn't always in that car bc he was Minardi's driver

[paper fossil]

It is just that he had few races vs Nakano and those were he was much faster than him they either both retired or one of them did

So it distorts a picture

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I respect Fisichella for being able to push almost the same cars Jarno drover harder & again he's more memorable for midfield battles which do need skill to do well in

[paper fossil]

To be putting in similar performances like Trullis earlier season ones simply on the weekends where Bridgestone had an advantage in his first season says a lot

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Trulli at Toyota is like as good as anything Fisi did from 97-00 though

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Like Gincarlo was insanely good at braking late & outbraking other drivers

[paper fossil]

In similar cars with the exception of early 05 and 09

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I think ur forgetting tho that Fisi wasn't at good teams around that time

[paper fossil]

Main thing is Trulli got way closer to Alonso than Fisi ever did and that is why they sacked him

[paper fossil]

Neither was Toyota in 07 or 08

And not early 06

They genuinely use Bahrain as a test that year it is so bad

[vague pollen]

Also I gotta say Fisi did pretty goddamn good in Canada 1998 like he was on Michael's ass for 3/4 of the entire race

[paper fossil]

I see

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And IIRC even led a few laps

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Benetton highlights of a pretty downhill year

Those two gp’s

Where Michael crashes into Wurz or whatever at Monaco

And Montreal

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Bruv please fix ur memory

That was a wheel to wheel battle where Wurz tried to push Schumacher off

[paper fossil]

I haven’t watched the race for years

Allow me

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Then Michael fought back at the 2 corners before the tunnel

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It wouldn’t be the first time Michael might have been uncompromising

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Also that reminds me

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But yes well anyway

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The suspension damage both cars took from such minor bumps

That's 1 of the main things I hated abt the groove tire era cars

Suspension on them was pathetically weak

Nowhere near as strong as it was on the 80s - 97 cars

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Yeah watched it

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Which IIRC had steel in them

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I have 0 sympathy for Michael

Thought so though

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Well ye it's his fault entirely for retaliating to Alex

He didn't have to return the shove at all

[paper fossil]

That is rather what I meant

But anyway

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Also I think Alex got a bit over excited there

Bc he bumped Michael like 3 times

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He was doing a job for his team and to add to that he was actually racing him

Fine I think

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That's why I love the 98 Benetton

It was underpowered

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I don’t

I don’t like a lot of what Wirth did at Benetton though

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But holy shit it had so many good aggressive battles like that

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Again it's not their fault Renault pulled out

[paper fossil]

You sound like the opposite of 60s Ferrari people always going back to the chassis as the inadequacy

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Besides that 97 Renault/98 - 99 Supertec engine doesn't get credit for lasting as long as it did with very minimal upgrades bc both it & the Mugen Honda were revving to 17.5K RPM in 1997 way before those revs became standard

[paper fossil]

And saying the engine being a total disaster is the biggest problem

They’d be behind Ferrari or McLaren regardless