classic-motorsport

[paper fossil]

That was not Jimmy Savile in that moment 😭

Was Bruce Forsyth

[queen saddle]

My blind ass thought Bruce Forsyth looks like an older version of Steve Coogan’s Jimmy Savile.

Should’ve known from the fact he doesn’t have that infamous “Smokescreen” hairstyle.

[paper fossil]

He just doesn’t sound like Savile

Lmao

[wary oak]

woah cool picture!

this has to be before niki's crash

[paper fossil]

it is from 1974

[wary oak]

is it before though

i think he had his crash in 1974*

[paper fossil]

???

1976

my dear boy

this is pretty much 2 years before

[wary oak]

oh okay lol

[paper fossil]

i mean fucking hell hulme is there

ahahah

[wary oak]

yeah and graham hill is there

and he died in 75

makes sense

[paper fossil]

and mike

hailwood

[wary oak]

im not sure who he is

[paper fossil]

was driving the sole yardley mclaren that year

[wary oak]

oh okay

[paper fossil]

came over from bikes

didn't really get a chance

at least not afforded the opportunities that Surtees got

[indigo phoenix]

Knowing you’re younger than me and seeing this turn of phrase is very funny icl 😭

[paper fossil]

i use it a lot

i speak like i was born in the 1930's or 1940's

[indigo phoenix]

Mike was fucking brilliant on motorbikes though

[paper fossil]

phrase wise

[paper fossil]

'was mike a potential top gp driver?' (asked to alaistair caldwell)

"yes"

says enough really

[wary oak]

i feel like there was another motorbike turned f1 driver too

[paper fossil]

i mean he was not in the conversation to replace fittipaldi in 1976 because he had his injury and already retired

[indigo phoenix]

A few, ig Surtees being the obvious one

[paper fossil]

which was the topic being discussed basically

[indigo phoenix]

Personal (biased) favorite of mine is also Johnny Cecotto

[paper fossil]

yes well

[indigo phoenix]

Not much F1 success there

But he was present!

[paper fossil]

i still think Hocking would have made it

if not for an untimely crash and death before he was about to start his first wc gp in a rob walker lotus in east london

the thing is surtees had tremendous results already

if you look at what he is doing at lotus and then lola

i don't think it is a shock he would win a title but he should have won another

vile man to work for by all accounts though

BRM seem to think so

as do all his drivers for his own GP team

[past drift]

theres Mike Hailwood

dude’s dubbed Mike the Bike

[paper fossil]

That is who we were discussing

[past drift]

oh right

[analog fjord]

i see at least 3 James hunts in that picture

[paper fossil]

Guy Edwards and Derek Bell

[dusty token]

I See 4

[analog fjord]

thanks for the names

[paper fossil]

Back row is: Ken Tyrrell, John Watson, Guy Edwards, Mike Hailwood, James Hunt, Graham Hill, Patrick Depailler, Peter Gethin, David Purley and Clay Regazzoni

Front row: Jody Scheckter, Derek Bell, Niki Lauda, Jackie Stewart, Ronnie Peterson, Jochen Mass and Denny Hulme

I have no clue who that kid is

Sticking his head between Hunt and Hill

[analog fjord]

does anyone have any pre 88 onboards?

idrk why im just looking for some

[past drift]

there’s very few of them as they didn’t have the small mounted cameras imposed in 89 onwards

[dusty token]

Anybody got some Pictures of Mika whilst he was at Lotus? With Helmet on would be great.

[past drift]

there’s this swagger

https://motorsportmagazine.b-cdn.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Lotus-of-Mika-Hakkinen-at-Spa-1992.jpg

https://www.mediastorehouse.com.au/p/745/1992-formula-1-championship-mika-hakkinen-lotus-24208495.jpg.webp

[dusty token]

Ty.

[idle gale]

Gotta love those small exhaust flames

[round swift]

Back when they used to be in every car, instead of ferrari only, and also back when they used to look cool and not make you book your therapy session

[languid sigil]

Old f1 pics that go hard ‼️

[terse cliff]

i approve heavily

[oblique dock]

I don’t think this goes here

[past drift]

This does not

[river cave]

pre-accident Mika was something else

literally

he was basically a different person after Adelaide

https://tenor.com/view/jon-tron-confuse-smile-gif-15832483

[paper fossil]

There is just something so unique about Tyrrell that I love

[past drift]

peak garagiste vibes, buy a Cosworth engine, a Hewland gearbox, build a chassis around that in a shed in Nowhereford, Buttfuckingshire, and win races on sundays.

[distant garnet]

Possibly one of the last interesting things Postlethwaite made with Tyrrell

[fleet wigeon]

I see young raikkonen before he was nicknamed iceman

[meager pewter]

Small

[round swift]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXl1658Qg4M

[paper fossil]

Kenneth Tyrrell remembers with some mirth a hotel in France: "It was terrible. Mum wanted to hang up her clothes but not only were there no rails in the wardrobe, but there was no back to it. It was double-sided and served both rooms but with no dividing panel, so you could see into the next room. Our driver Tony Maggs was staying in the next room with his partner Gaile and er... well, he was giving her a good seeing to. Mum decided not to say anything more about hanging up her clothes [laughs].

Bruh

Kenneth Ken’s son btw and his wife Norah

[wary oak]

Guys what was the most successful F1 car before the MP4/4

Was it the MP4/2?

Or was it the 1952 Ferrari

[paper fossil]

I mean yeah depends on how you are defining it

If we went same chassis designation and number

The BRM P57 that Graham used on his way to win the 1962 title got used a lot and was hella successful considering with privateers

But like that was across multiple seasons

With different entrants and drivers

I forget which chassis number it was which got sold off to people like Scuderia Centro Sud

Then there is the 312T Ferrari series but they were all basically evolutions of each other

But in a season yes it was the MP4/4 and Ferrari 500 Formula 2 regulations car

Which won all the wc gp in 52

Same as the Alfetta in 50 too

[wary oak]

percentage of race wins in a season

[past drift]

i think the most successful chassis was/is Jackie Stewart’s Tyrrell 003, which is a specific chassis

[paper fossil]

there was probably quite a few of those built

enough for there to be individual chassis numbers that won the 8 gp it did

[distant garnet]

Well,if you are focusing on that,it was the 1952 Ferrari with 7 out of 8 wins

But timeline-wise,before the MP4/4 it was the MP4/2 from the 1984 season which had a very dominant season

[wary oak]

Would the RB9 beat that? I’m pretty sure Vettel used the same chassis but I could be wrong

[distant garnet]

12 out of 16 wins

[paper fossil]

again doubt it was literally the same spec chassis every gp

[wary oak]

yeah true

[past drift]

no 003 is the chassis number. the first tyrrell that wasn’t an individual chassis was the 006 in 73

[silver geyser]

Best Sports Comebacks of All Time: 2. Michael Jordan, 1995. 1. Nikki Lauda , 1976

[oblique dock]

what about alex zanardi and robert wickens

[paper fossil]

https://twitter.com/esportenaband/status/1761011716777799777

Esporte Na Band (@esportenaband) on X

Morreu na manhã desta sexta-feira (23), aos 80 anos, Wilson Fittipaldi Júnior, ex-piloto de Fórmula 1, irmão do bicampeão da categoria, Emerson Fittipaldi, e pai de Christian Fittipaldi.

Wilsinho, como era carinhosamente chamado, estava internado desde 25 de dezembro após sofrer…

Twitter · Feb 23, 2024, 12:54 PM

[oblique dock]

Rest in peace, Wilson….

https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/former-f1-driver-team-owner-wilson-fittipaldi-dies-aged-80/10579184/

He choked on a piece of meat, followed by him going into cardiac arrest…..

Jesus….

[paper fossil]

excuse me wtf

[oblique dock]

I’m not making this shit up

It’s in the article

“He had been hospitalised since Christmas Day, which was also his birthday, after he choked on a piece of meat. His family was unable to clear his airway, which triggered a cardiac arrest.”

[paper fossil]

yes have read now

just taken aback by such detail

[oblique dock]

Same here

This is just sad

and quite unexpected if I do say so

[terse cliff]

i wouldn't wish such a death to my worst enemies

sounds painful

[wary oak]

Who's the Driver?

[indigo phoenix]

Ain’t that Jackie Stewart’s brother?

Jimmy, right?

[paper fossil]

I should think so

That would be Britiain 53 then

His only world championship entry with Ecurie Ecosse

[desert plover]

Yes!! 😄

[distant garnet]

The first car with the first 1.5L V6T Honda Engine

The Spirit 201/201C

Drove by Stefan Johansson in the image

[outer pier]

1999 Italian GP, Fisichella's car after he crashed into the first chicane, fans raided the car after the race, pulling apart pieces of the engine cover

[wary oak]

Yup it is

[paper fossil]

https://twitter.com/TheBishF1/status/1761815103320555595

Matt Bishop 🏳️‍🌈 🏁 (@TheBishF1) on X

With regard to the François Cevert tweet that I posted this morning (below), I’ve been asked by a couple of followers who I think would be ideal to play him if ever a big Hollywood movie were to be made about him. My pick would be Timothée Chalamet. Whom would you choose?

Twitter · Feb 25, 2024, 6:07 PM

get Jérôme d'Ambrosio imho

[indigo phoenix]

Timothee Chalamet is not him

Smh

Doesn't even remotely look like Cevert either

[round swift]

Silver arrows

[wary oak]

What do they all have in common?

[oblique dock]

They’ve all driven for Williams

[tight pasture]

sorry but i am unable to recognise both the people in centre of prost and Jenson

can u say...

[oblique dock]

Jacques Villeneuve (left)
Nigel Mansell (right)

[river cave]

why is Mr Clean in the photo?

[glad orchid]

💀

[desert terrace]

what happened to my man jacques

[desert terrace]

also all world champions

[oblique dock]

meanwhile all of em except Button has won a title with Williams in F1

[desert terrace]

all of them except prost won their title only once

all except villeneuve didn't win their wdc for at least five years after joining F1

all except nigel are clean shaven

[wary oak]

Yup! To bad Jenson didn't win a championship with them like the rest of them did

[oblique dock]

Yea…

[distant garnet]

https://youtu.be/7MfmKh3cqQA?si=EBCiTX7gXpBtsO2L

[paper fossil]

Matra International (Tyrrell Racing Organisation run) end of season photo from 1969

[past drift]

just noticed, Beltoise was quite piss poor when it came to qualifying that year, shame cause he did quite well during the races

[wary oak]

Most wins from each decade of F1!

1950s: J.M. Fangio 24 Wins - 51 Starts (47%)
1960s: Jim Clark 25 Wins - 72 Starts (35 %)
1970s: Niki Lauda 17 wins - 113 Starts (15 %)
1980s: Alain Prost 39 wins - 153 Starts (25 %)
1990s: Michael Schumacher 35 wins - 127 Starts (28 %)
2000s: Michael Schumacher 56 wins - 122 Starts (46 %)

Does any of this surprise any of yous?

[willow gorge]

no

actually yes

Actually no

[wary oak]

Lol

[paper jacinth]

Prost > Senna? 😅

[wary oak]

.truth

[north sand]

Prost > Senna

[idle gale]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l03nkLHoRKc&ab_channel=AidanMillward

[past drift]

not one bit! shows Lauda is a bit underrated too

[stark bolt]

2010s?

Gotta be lewis

[marsh musk]

yeah no shit

[stark bolt]

Ok calm down mate

[marsh musk]

ok femboy sex racing driver

intersting name

[desert plover]

Yup

[wary oak]

1970s were a lot more competitive it looks like

[paper fossil]

60s and 70s

There was no back to back world champion for over a quarter of a century

[past drift]

yeah no back to back champ between Brabham (59-60) and Prost (85-86)

[paper fossil]

Became a bit of a joke

To level against the defending world champion

Jones says his 1981 was even better than his 80 and he so wanted to end the nonsense

Not inclined to agree given his mistakes that year

[past drift]

wasnt really due to the rulea at least

[paper fossil]

Oh no joke for the press

I mean

And around the paddock

[meager pewter]

Bro went tragically bald in one of the least flattering ways

[desert terrace]

he deteriorated from alright to wth in the span of four years

[meager pewter]

1991/2

1998

Like it's painful

[desert terrace]

that's impressive

depressive

[indigo phoenix]

He had such nice hair

RIP Jacques hair

[meager pewter]

Like I'm not making fun it's genuinely like tragic but... Ooough

[indigo phoenix]

Shaving it was a good decision for him. Looks less worrying

[river cave]

i believe they call it the Michael effect

[meager pewter]

The wha

[river cave]

Mika before Michael

Mika after Michael

Michael just has the ability to make anyone who goes against him lose their hair

[meager pewter]

Um... That was Ron Dennis into the 2000's more like

It's not like Mika is bald

[marsh musk]

michael had a terrible hairline though

at least he wasnt bald lol

[oblique dock]

How

[thin gale]

If the 2000s F1 cars had rings (not mine)

[oblique dock]

Uh…… no

[paper fossil]

https://open.spotify.com/episode/4o51tE8l8RdU6f8YuXmf3S?si=ng4aZRjAQYeiUh_UgmhzHw&context=spotify%3Ashow%3A1zMZOoghjPYi1zTDWmriap

[oblique dock]

Since today is February 29, here’s Masten Gregory, who was born on this day

[upbeat gate]

In fact this man, alongside Jochen Rindt won the Le Mans in 1965

[oblique dock]

RIP to both

[past drift]

he had quite good results in F1 all things considered

[paper fossil]

Good driver

Very much a sportscar ace though

Jim Clark held him at the highest regard in such cars

[weak matrix]

https://tenor.com/view/danielbrühl-danielbruhl-rush-nikilauda-lauda-gif-21408106

https://tenor.com/view/michael-schumacher-formula1-formula-one-racing-wink-gif-7236699

[weak matrix]

w pic tho

[upbeat gate]

Oh come on, not the F2004 with halo again.

[idle gale]

Max Verstappen: Kicks the blown out tyre

Ayrton Senna: Stomps the deflated tyre

https://youtu.be/hEG2A3JR-8A?feature=shared&t=357

[paper fossil]

It is seen as deliberate

Simple as that

People had thought that ended with the back to back incidents of 89 and 90

Idk what you are trying to make a point about though

Overwhelmingly the optics were bad

I mean the reason is sportsmanship

You can understand it but also disagree that it taints someone career

I choose to believe that season was already being practically manufactured almost willingly for most the year anyway

Some of the FIA discussions you hear about Silverstone are interesting

[sweet basin]

https://tenor.com/view/niki-nikilauda-formula1-f1-gif-9536841

[round swift]

https://youtu.be/thDHfj0WotY?si=HIyq8ya7Iyv9_5b4

[idle gale]

Finishing 1 Lap ahead of the rest of the grid in the Season Opener

[wary oak]

Alonso - Bahrain 2004

How Verstappen compares to other F1 greats at this stage of his career

Max Verstappen
Stats after 185 race weekends: 3 world titles / 54 wins (29.1%) / 98 podiums (52.9%) / 32 pole positions (17.2%)

Michael Schumacher
Stats after 185 race weekends: 5 world titles / 67 wins (36.2%) / 118 podiums (63.7%) / 54 pole positions (29.1%)

Sebastian Vettel
Stats after 185 race weekends: 4 world titles, 45 wins (24.3%), 92 podiums (49.7%), 47 pole positions (25.4%)

Lewis Hamilton
Stats after 185 race weekends: 3 world titles / 50 wins (27%) / 101 podiums (54.5%) / 58 pole positions (31.3%)

Alain Prost
Stats after 185 race weekends: 3 world titles / 44 wins (23.7%) / 94 podiums (50.8%) / 20 pole positions (10.8%)

Nelson Piquet
Stats after 185 race weekends: 3 world titles, 20 wins (10.8%), 54 podiums (29.1%), 24 pole positions (12.9%)

Ayrton Senna
Stats after 161 Grands Prix: 3 world titles, 41 wins (25.4%), 80 podiums (49.6%), 65 pole positions (40.3%)

[paper fossil]

*55 wins

And all the other stats accounted for by yesterdays gp

[desert plover]

Bruh

[desert plover]

It says stats after 185 starts, not 186!

[paper fossil]

“At this stage of his career”

His career is ongoing

So is Lewis

In the midst of peoples career I would account for everyones last gp

[past drift]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9iAXrM-oKs

[wary oak]

Yup I didn’t include it because I forgot about it

[paper fossil]

👍

[wary oak]

I will update it after this seasons done

I still think max is going to win 10+ wins this season

[valid oasis]

https://youtu.be/x2slTlsJerY?si=xWD-lgPKEkYWLaiG

[paper fossil]

“I was almost level on points leading the World Championship at Monza, with just two races to go, so you have to wonder that if I'd had the 007 from the first race, maybe things could have changed. But the key thing was that our development went backwards as the season went on. That was the biggest and repeated problem. Everyone else had either progressed over the winter or moved forward during the season.”

“The team definitely struggled in the first few weeks and months after Cevert's death. They had based their car around him and on a set-up that was easier for him. They had to adjust to myself and Patrick, and it took them some time to do that. Technologically, they lost so much ground to McLaren during that time. Look how sophisticated the M23 was compared to the 007, how the engine cover was flush to the block compared to the Tyrrell, keeping the airflow to the back wing clean, and how the radiators were tucked away neatly on the McLaren.”

“Maybe the team felt there was no need to develop as I was doing well, but that might have been a bit of a false economy. Ken and the team were great racers, they had brilliant racecraft, but where they struggled was the development of each car. They didn't, or couldn't, or wouldn't develop the cars. Now when Jackie Stewart was there, they frequently tested with Goodyear and picked up so many things that they then improved and could develop. They tested and tested and tested, but that just didn't happen so much when I was there.”

These are some reflections from Jody Scheckter on his first full season in Formula One with Tyrrell in 1974

It's interesting to hear Depailler say things like he doesn't believe Stewart could have won in 1974. I don't know, really.

[past drift]

since Jody came so close, Jackie would have won. or are the very least Tyrrell would have

[paper fossil]

What can obviously be argued is just how well the 006 suited Jackie and thus also suited Francois

The direction on the 007 came from Jackie but I can’t say it was good enough

Or would be ideal for him

Certainly mechanics have observed that Depailler drove more like Stewart and thus the early season had gone better

The M23 was just fundamentally ahead though

Ferrari had stamped up the efforts too

It wouldn't have been easy

I mean Jody was already ahead of Revson and Hulme in like a non existent drive with McLaren and I would say those two were ahead of Francois also

Like it is a great first full year

[past drift]

yeah

[paper fossil]

Ultimately what cost him was being uncompetitive in the earlier year

And then those back to back retirements in the American rounds

Was leading or going well at Mosport iirc as well

Probably was 2nd

But yes well can be said for like Lauda as well

He was very unlucky

[past drift]

yeah haha

[river cave]

TIL Mario Andretti's first win came with Ferrari in South Africa. After all this time i thought Andretti only drove for Ferrari in 1982

[paper fossil]

Pole in his 2nd entry in Formula One

And yeah that Italian GP he didn’t start was his debut

His career is so weird though

Deciding to go full time with grand prix at the age of 35 in a Parnelli is a choice for sure

[paper fossil]

I think there was a clear distinction between Scheckter and Depailler on how to make a car go faster rather than make it feel great to drive

The P34 at least shows that it might have been different in other cars

Depailler thought it was great Jody was like well it didn’t do anything of what Derek and others suggested it would

He said he kinda got a sense of being able to extract things out of it easier but that there wasn’t much to extract out

It didn’t make braking better

Cornering maybe a minimal improvement

In general I think they ended up with an easier car to drive that is it

Which is strange given that was literally the aim with the 007

And it worked

[round swift]

the 2000 Japanese Grand Prix

[distant garnet]

The moment Michael finally threw away a very heavy weight after 3 seasons of failure

[idle gale]

The Yellow Porsche Safety Car

[wary oak]

15 year old Rubens

[willow gorge]

He kinda looks like Jarno

at least in the first pic

[paper fossil]

No he still looks like Rubens Barrichello

[slender veldt]

just blonde

[paper fossil]

I think Patrick Depailler was quite good

Certainly lost in the Tyrrellness of post Stewart

But the accounts of him are more than fair except his qualifying being a bit dog water

[past drift]

shame he wasn't very successful at his peak (78-79), and then broke his legs like an idiot in 79 when he was in a title contending car

and obviously...

[paper fossil]

Yes well

That is the worst said

He was mad thrill seeking

[fleet wigeon]

Aka the first f1 safety car

[paper fossil]

But like 1978 is his best

Probably

[past drift]

yeah i would agree

the car wasn't a title contender, but probably the last good Tyrrell car made

[paper fossil]

77 considering how heavy the car is

[past drift]

proper good.

[paper fossil]

Also a shout

But Peterson finished bare gp

So hard to say much

[past drift]

idk about the P34. it seems it suited Depailler but not Scheckter or Peterson, who were faster drivers

[paper fossil]

Well

[past drift]

or at least, Scheckter saw it was a technical dead end

Peterson couldn't see shit he was a Kimi

[paper fossil]

What seems to be suggested is the front tyres were way too small

And the rear tyres too big

Negating efforts for aerodynamic flow

[past drift]

the small front tyres were a good idea for the drag

[paper fossil]

And in effect balance

[past drift]

yes exactly

[paper fossil]

And this wasn’t helped by no development either

[past drift]

avif nice

[paper fossil]

As Goodyear was focused on McLaren and Ferrari

[paper fossil]

77 was worse

[past drift]

well, making specific smaller tyres for one team isn't very profitable

[paper fossil]

With front end radiators

And then wide trak from Maurice Phillipe

Potential was there

But this came too early

Head and Herd had good ideas on 8 wheelers

[past drift]

it looks less bulky

[paper fossil]

Though that also included ground effect

[paper fossil]

Awful ahah

Front end was horrendous

Ronnie hated it

[past drift]

e l f

[paper fossil]

And even he couldn’t adapt

I mean

His summaries of it

Are to be taken with a pinch of salt

Love Ronnie but his idea of developing a car was to opposite lock every corner

He didn’t know much

[past drift]

yeah

[paper fossil]

Depailler is a strange one though

He seemed to get overly involved which can be a bad thing

But most of his changes made him go faster

Rather than just making it more comfortable

But also he was rather set on the P34 straight away

Complex man clearly

Definitely more like Stewart in general fundamental approach to driving but clearly not able to extract as much pace out though this might have just been a choice to have margin

You can’t make much of an easy estimation because his career didn’t go long enough and Alfa Romeo was erm yeh a choice

I mean De Cesaris nearly won a gp in that car eventually in 83 at Spa

[past drift]

it seems he was okay/good at developing a car at least

[paper fossil]

If not for a buggered stop

[past drift]

the Alfa was already quite good in 1980, but not very reliable

[paper fossil]

Trying to think of where he could have gone again

[past drift]

https://www.statsf1.com/en/1980/etats-unis-ouest/tour-par-tour.aspx (select race)

[past drift]

who?

[paper fossil]

Ferrari 79 but like not really

Jody was pretty much the clear option

He was contacted

But about it

Thought he had it available earlier in his career tbf

There was a time Enzo just wanted everyone

Like Tambay for 78 because of a pretty good gp debut

Which Tampax had to decline because McLaren had already won him over with Mayer bursting into a meeting with John Hogan saying sign this lmao

[past drift]

heh

[paper fossil]

Yes well

He never had anything solid

Having looked back at my notes

Apart from that

80 at the Glen is one Giacomelli led at half distance

But Spa 83 was looking like a set win for De Cesaris till pit stop drama

Same year they ran empty fuel tanks at Paul Ricard in qualifying iirc

Lmao

Think this is by the time what would become EuroBrun was running the Alfa’s

As opposed to Auto Delta

[past drift]

it's funny that Ducarouge went to that team just because he was pissed with Laffite

and made them good

though he probably couldn't save them when they decided they needed a V8 for their turbo engine..

[paper fossil]

"Gerard Ducarouge joined us in 1982, and he turned up with this briefcase. And we were all thinking 'Oh my God, we are going to get the plans to this and that', and he opened it, and it was filled with 200 packs of Marlboro Red Cigarettes" - Steve Hallam

[past drift]

haha

[river cave]

i've got the tamiya model

goofy looking car

[paper fossil]

Best selling model F1 car of all time

According to Bob Tyrrell at least

I have a Monaco 77 Spec set not built yet

[past drift]

wouldn't be surprised about that. it's very atypical looking

[stray iris]

God its been so long

He is so old..

[south tree]

RIP

[paper fossil]

1986 be goofy at times

Brundle, Strieff (Tyrrell)
Mansell, Piquet (Williams)
Dumfries, Senna (Lotus)
Tambay, Jones (Haas Lola)
De Cesaris, Nannini (Minardi)
Fabi, Berger (Benetton)

[night hare]

Did fabi do anything of note? He’s the only one on this list which I don’t recognise

[past drift]

he scored the first pole for team Enstone, the first one in a Toleman Hart

against the likes of Senna Prost Piquet etc. so not too shabby

he also repeated the feat in Austria the year after but had mechanical issues while leading iirc

also uhhh Fabi is short.

well actually not that small at 1.65m, but Berger is tall at 1.85m

[paper fossil]

Some pole positions

Was better in America

Extremely good

I think Pat Symonds is of praise to Fabi tbf

Or it might have been someone at Brabham

Forget

[night hare]

Thanks both of you

[past drift]

would make sense, didn't Symonds do basically all his career at Enstone

[paper fossil]

Most of it was at Toleman and Benetton/Renault yeah

Though they only moved into Enstone later in the 90s

Originally were in Witney till 1992

Oxfordshire again but yes well

[past drift]

ah ok

[paper fossil]

Spent two years at Marussia after his ban

Iirc

13-14

Then rest of his career at Williams

Ah no

Was 2011-12 Marussia

Was at Williams from mid 13 to 2016

[woven zinc]

bruh those photos are from 1986? 💀

what time-travelling maniac gave them an iPhone to take selfies with

[river cave]

He did a lot more in Indycar than he did in F1

pretty successful over there

also i think he has the F1 record for most forehead on a driver

[paper fossil]

Robert Kubica is up there

[slow grail]

teo fabi

the man who got 3 poles but never led a single lap

[past drift]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Blszridpus ok that slaps

[paper fossil]

that must have been set up for like

this kind of run

or pizzonia was just lifting before he hit that sweet spot of the v10

shame really when they do burnouts instead of just full beans as possible

[meager pewter]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LecO84NnyYE&pp=ygUNNDEyVDEgMDQzIFYxMg%3D%3D

[past drift]

im a simple man, i see 412T, i 👍

[dusty token]

Yuki x Pierre but several Years before.

[round swift]

There was one F1 driver from Liechtenstein, his name is Rikky Von Opel, he was born in New York but raced under the Liechtenstein flag, he is also the great grandson of Adam Opel, the founder of Opel the car company

[paper fossil]

Now a Monk

In Thailand

[past drift]

Rikky is? interesting

[river cave]

mmmmm, if only BMW could've won a title

[elfin siren]

https://youtu.be/Vvb7n7CwgMM?si=tsYJ-Mv7CBS28AvY

I like this archive because it has a few drivers pre race talk, and their thoughts about their upcoming race

Gosh those late 50s cars were so sleek and simple

Like a smooth sausage

[past drift]

60s were even sleeker

[desert terrace]

inflammable sausages

[meager pewter]

Ah sorry wrong ping

[normal hinge]

jdm cars

[paper fossil]

It is Ick’s Tyrrell entered Matra MS5 at the 67 German GP

F2 car that he got into the top 5 before the suspension broke

[past drift]

he was always great at the old Nurb

[paper fossil]

“It was funny because a lot of people had still never heard of me. And with my name, it was like I was called Monsieur X, a mystery man. But you must remember, at that time the Nürburgring was very difficult in a Formula 1 car. There were 17 different places each lap where we used to get off the ground. So, a properly set-up Formula 2 car had an easier time. Also, I had twice done the Marathon de la Route at the Nürburgring, in a Mustang and then in a Lotus Cortina, both times with only one co-driver. So, I really did know every centimetre of the track. Jo Bonnier, who was head of the Grand Prix Drivers' Association, said I must not be allowed to start from the front row, because I would get in everybody's way, and it would be dangerous. That did me a good turn and made it look better because coming up from the back I was overtaking all these F1 cars in my little Matra.” - Ickx on his performance when speaking to Simon Taylor of Motorsport Magazine

[past drift]

heh

he onl;y had 8 wins, and 2 of them on the old Nurb

including his last win in 72

[elfin siren]

Anyone know the first car that used a front wing or back wing

[paper fossil]

early 68 it would be

and the lotus 49b i believe

first 3 cars to run aerofoils of any kind in fact

The Brabham and Ferrari are from the following GP at Spa with Jochen Rindt and Chris Amon at the wheel respectively

[indigo phoenix]

Lotus hours?

And yes the first F1 car to use a wing was the Lotus 49b and twas at Monaco

Worked a treat too Graham got pole by like. Half a second.

[paper fossil]

shame Stewart wasn't there

thing is Gavin led that gp in like the first few laps

then put it in the wall at Portier I believe trying way too hard

to prove a point

i like gavin thoigh

dude was built

[indigo phoenix]

Where does he fall in your French Grand Prix Driver Attractiveness ranking

(+ what is potentially my favorite photo of him ever)

[paper fossil]

i mean

for french people the bar is delon and cevert

and gp drivers it is cevert then a bit of a step to tambay

so not high

[indigo phoenix]

Okay but there's that one picture of him smoking that's kinda good

[paper fossil]

he obviously had to look worse after that tree branch whacking him in the eye and gas bottle exploding

and your average aging

[elfin siren]

Why was the noise shaped like this?

Sort of a just flat stop, air intake?

[past drift]

what about the brabham the year before that had winglets on the sides

[paper fossil]

Wasn’t aware of that

[indigo phoenix]

They had some “deflectors” and stuff before yeah, iirc so did Lotus, but ig visibly to me those never really registered as wings in the way my brain wants them to be.

[past drift]

yeah fair 😄 they didn’t add a lot of downforce i suppose

neither did early rudimentary wings i suppose. but 2 downforces is better than 0

[indigo phoenix]

Also they looked fun and funky going through Monaco

[indigo phoenix]

Look at him he's so square

What a cubic man

[indigo phoenix]

Right in the middle

Dead stare at the camera

Perfect

Love how Jacques is fully not even pretending to pay attention to the camera too

[paper fossil]

Ideal to think Lavaggi was starting his last gp here and he was born in the same decade as Jody Scheckter

[desert terrace]

Alesi looks devious
Salo is too happy

[paper fossil]

"I thought Keke was going to be like lightning in that car. I'd always had the highest admiration for him. He was 100% committed on every lap. But Barnard had a theory that Keke couldn't drive the car the way Alain liked it and John insisted on the cars being more or less the same. Keke got the hang of it in the last race, he went like shit off a shovel but it was too late" - John Hogan on Keke Rosberg’s 1986

[past drift]

that car?

[paper fossil]

MP4/2C

[paper fossil]

“During qualifying at one race, we had five set of tyres for Niki and Nelson. After they'd used two sets each, Niki was slower than Nelson and came in to get the third set of tyres put on his car. I told him the tyres were for Nelson. Niki complained, 'But I am the number 1 driver in this team'. I told him, 'Not today, you're not'.” - Bernie Ecclestone

[past drift]

that wouldn’t be Canada?

[paper fossil]

Probably not

[river cave]

To me this just feels wrong

Seeing Button in a Renault suit will never feel normal

[indigo phoenix]

His Benetton days... what a time to be alive

"Jenson Button is just a lazy playboy," -Flavio Briatore, most hard-working playboy in the world

I hate that this is considered classic because it makes me feel old but yeah

What a crew though

[woven zinc]

also like Alonso was any different

yeah they sure had a crew back in those days indeed

[indigo phoenix]

Fernando?

What

Fernando has a notorious work ethic

Jenson’s said as much multiple times too man works

[woven zinc]

oh

he does give off playboy vibes ngl so that's what I was going off of

[indigo phoenix]

I mean he parties but everyone does that, especially in the 2000s

[woven zinc]

yeah lmao

it still feels wrong that the 2000s were 20 years ago 😭

[limpid kernel]

also 2017 is already 6 years ago

wait 7

[paper fossil]

"You've probably heard someone tell you so-and-so is shy. And you think, no he's not; he's a prick. Shy was often a term used about Senna. I don't think he was shy. I think he was emotionally immature throughout his whole career. He was a bit of a spoiled baby at home." - John Hogan

Oof

"The difference between Prost and Senna was this: if you give Prost a car that is one hundred per cent to his liking, there was no guy on this earth who could beat him. Very often [Senna replicated Prost's settings]. Prost was much better as a test driver, as an engineer, than Ayrton." - Jo Ramirez

[distant garnet]

So,recently there was a podcast with Barrichello,and he did say the 1998 Stewart and the 2008 Honda were the worst cars he drove

[past drift]

he still managed a podium with the latter, not bad

but yeah no wonder Ross focused on the 2008 car before the 2008 season started when he saw how bad it was

[vocal viper]

f1 06 best game

[tight pasture]

Ferrari or McLaren?

[signal flint]

is that the lamborghini test car?

or engine

[past drift]

guessing it’s Hakkinen testing the Lambo engine

for McLaren

so was the /8 designed around it and they had to change it in a rush when they had to put the Ford HB instead? Like Brawn and their car made for the Honda engine

[woven zinc]

the Lamborghini partnership would've been from 1994 though not 1993, it didn't even start to be rumored until August that year

I do wonder if the MP4/9 may have been designed around the Lamborghini first though

[paper fossil]

"We are disappointed to say the least. We have worked very hard in the last few months, including a very intense period recently putting together a team to interface with McLaren and TAG Electronics. The car was very quick and Ayrton Senna said some encouraging things about it. There was a strong agreement to proceed together for the future. The decision may say something about F1. It's no secret that the marque must look at its costs, and we wanted to introduce our lean and efficient approach to it."

Words of the at the time Chrysler PR director Tom Kowaleski

On McLaren agreeing a deal with Peugeot

The last part is the most clear indication of just how mundane the whole thing actually was

Wasn’t going to cut it in the modern F1 era dawning

Are those the words of a manufacturer striving for world championships lmao?

[past drift]

oh yeah? thought it was after Honda but before Ford, my bad 😄

in an attempt to keep Senna

[woven zinc]

yeah it was an attempt to keep Senna, but for 94 not 93

93 was when Senna originally wasn't gonna race for McLaren at all but they got to keep him on a race-by-race contract while Häkkinen was demoted to test/reserve driver until Michael Andretti got the boot

also yeah I'm not sure whether the "lean and efficient" approach would've worked in F1

[paper fossil]

See Peugeot after 1997

The 1 million a race contract for Senna across 1993 was rather a joke considering his moaning and underperformance at times in 1992

But it was a rather staggering realisation for Ron of just how much of a vaccum the talent market was

Which is why he continually persisted on Senna cancelling his Williams deal to Adelaide and then waited out for Prost in 94

[paper fossil]

“Twice that winter [88-89] Ron called me on a Tuesday and Said 'Alain, can you help me and come tonight, Ayrton has a problem and cannot come [and do the tests he is scheduled to do] after all' ... I found out Ayrton didn't have a problem at all” - Alain Prost

“Ayrton started the [5 day] test [in Rio]. But after half a day in the car he said to Ron he didn't want to test any more, because he said that I was so much better than him at setting up the car. ... I was stupid enough to do the test - but after I had the car how he wanted Ayrton came back towards the end and said he wanted to drive again. So he did. That was not correct”

“He [Senna] could be a complete prick to work with at times. The classic would be when he would take fifteen minutes to explain to me why he couldn't do a five-minute interview” - Eric Silbermann, Honda F1 PR

“[Honda] tried to show me on the telematry that as Ayrton was going quicker than me through the corners that was why he was 12-14kph quicker than me on the straight” - Alain Prost

[river cave]

They employed 4 drivers, and put the highly talented future double world champion in a Minardi, and left the man with the strongest chin on earth to linger in F3000

also, what was the logic in leaving Alonso as a test driver for 2002, at that point you should've just left him at Minardi

[river cave]

McLambo, beautiful car

[paper fossil]

“I arrived at Monza [89] and Ayrton had two cars just for him ... there were almost fourty people on one side of the garage with Ayrton, and four of five people with me. Ron hardly talked to me at all” - Alain Prost

“Someone like Ken Tyrrell would have stood up and intimidated both of them [Piquet and Mansell]. You can't really do that when you are in a wheelchair” - Frank Williams.

Peak for him

Should have run over their feet with his wheelchair

“Senna was driving like a complete idiot, like a demonic man. Apparently, his team was screaming at him to slow down. On the previous lap, I'd gone down the Brabham straight and did a triple 360-degree spin. I was only told afterwards it was a triple spin, because I had no idea at the time as there was too much spray around. ... I hooked a gear and drove off - then suddenly thought what if I am driving in the wrong direction? ... I am thinking this all through [the next lap], when there is this big thump at the rear of my car and a three-wheeled McLaren goes past me. That's how much faster Senna was driving. He was flat out in top gear. Quite clearly he didn't see me at all. I don't think he remotely lifted. He just drove straight into the back of me, complete lunacy. What on earth was he doing? If he hadn't hit me, he was going to hit someone. Or it might have been me the lap before going the wrong way” - Martin Brundle

“Senna wanted to change sides, and because he could not he was blaming me and Balestre. It was always his rules” - Alain Prost

“A lot of people think that was the worst deed ever committed at the wheel of a Formula One car. He couldn't get the side of the track he wanted - it was an intentional accident” - Martin Brundle

“The year before Prost, typically, had chosen a slow corner to have an accident with Senna where he was not going to hurt anybody or anything. But the second crash at Suzuka was an act that could easily have led to death - and should have been stamped on by the FIA. If Andrea de Cesaris had pulled that, he'd have been fucked from here to kingdom come. But Senna could get away with it. It was blatant. It was a 150mph corner and two people could have died there. Not long before, if memory serves me well, a guy had been killed at Suzuka in a F3000 race” - Derek Warwick

“Kid, you neeed to grow up” - Jackie Stewart

😭

“I didn't care if we crash. I went for it, and we crashed. That was a result of what happened in 1989. It was unavoidable. Why did I cause the accident? Because if you get fucked by the system every single time you try to do your job cleanly and properly, what should you do? It was a result of a bad decision, influenced by Balestre. It was not my responsibility - I contributed to it, yes, but it was not my responsibility” - Ayrton Senna

Mein gott he might have been more delusional than Mansell

[indigo phoenix]

Flavio decision to have him testing for Benetton, my guess was Minardi didn't want that conflict of interest or maybe that was also Flavio

Definitely was questioned back then but being a testing driver back then was a ton of track time anyway in a way it simply isn't these days

[indigo phoenix]

"It was a result of a bad decision, influenced by Balestre. It was not my responsibility - I contributed to it, yes, but it was not my responsibility" is a wild quote to give like that

[paper fossil]

Yes well Nigel always has said Senna just didn’t care for the other 24 or so other cars

He couldn’t be passed and that was that

1989 Portugal is a massive manifestation of that idea

[wary oak]

MP4/8B had the Lamborghini engine in it

[wary oak]

McLaren

[paper fossil]

Good when Ayrton refused to turn up to the track until he was paid at some weekends in 1993

For example at Imola

Where he turned up 5 mins before a session and then crashed immediately

Jo Ramirez was absolutely livid with Senna that weekend

Alain’s best win of the season there

[past drift]

funny how his best win comes right after Ayrton's best win of the season at Donington

[paper fossil]

I'm rather convinced Prost would have won against Mansell in 93

Regardless of Alain not liking the car as much

[past drift]

hmm he took a bit of adapting to the active suspension, while Mansell was already used to it

[paper fossil]

He stepped onto Mansells turf before and immediately owned it

And Nigel had been an ass in 92 also

His only harmonious time with any team was the first year at Williams

Quite honestly

[past drift]

yeah it seems

idk about 91

[paper fossil]

Second Williams stint he was hated

Bastard to work with at times

Prost was pretty realistic about his 93 anyway

Feel like with Mansell there he is going to have to dig deep

And he usually does that well

[past drift]

he might have beaten Mansell like he beat Rosberg in 86

who knows

[paper fossil]

Oh yes

Good thought

Keke was very good in 86

Tbh

[past drift]

yeah but he rarely finished

[paper fossil]

The results do not show it

[past drift]

forgot what was wrong with him, the car didn't suit him well or sth

it was explained a few days ago

but i forgor

[paper fossil]

He had a car as I said didn't work for him at all and forced upon him

[past drift]

ah it was you great

[paper fossil]

Barnard made him use Prost and Laudas set ups

[past drift]

bruh

[paper fossil]

For no reason

Twat

[past drift]

he clearly doesn't have the same driving style lmao

[paper fossil]

Yes opposite

More of the Senna

Style

[past drift]

yeah

[paper fossil]

Per Frank Dernie

[past drift]

his Straya 86 shows it

[paper fossil]

Which is great

It is pretty good line up icl

Both Williams and McLaren are

Shame Keke had already decided to retire

And Elio’s death didn't help

[past drift]

and Nico's birth

[paper fossil]

Yes well that is when Hogan said Keke got the car right

Too late

Alas

He had a puncture which he thought was like the suspension broken

So stopped the car

[past drift]

this race is fun

he's just pushing like a moron

and the other moron took the bait

[paper fossil]

Yes well

That is one thing

It was probably because he was having to drive the neck out of FW Cosworth cars

For most of the peak of the turbo era

Before Williams finally got it right only late into 85

A season he beats Nigel in

[past drift]

i'm quite confused about Nigel

before Williams he was average at best

[paper fossil]

Beaten by Elio yes

I can't lie though

Dernie believes Nelson had Nigel well enough pre 87 Imola

Prost beat Nigel at Ferrari

Passive car Patrese looked very good against Nigel

God awful in 1994 and 1995

Perfect in 92

[past drift]

Williams wanted another Alan Jones and they got just that in him

[paper fossil]

Though this is when I say Schumacher had a bigger advantage over Patrese in 93 than Nigel did in 92

[past drift]

oh yeah definitely

[paper fossil]

Newey must have been drunk when he suggested Nigel would have won 95

In the Williams

Given how he performs in the races during 94

[past drift]

maybe he says this knowing the characteristics of the car and Nigel's preference

[paper fossil]

I think it doesn't matter

I doubt it anyway

The best of Nigel was in the active car

That he would be committed with

Hill straight up destroys him in their races together

Like the bad thing for Hill is being unable to rally up support with being beaten by Nigel in qualifying

But come the race he's nowhere

Crashes into fucking Barrichello at Jerez

Passes Alesi on the last lap at Suzuka and celebrates it like a win

And Aus Michael and Damon are in a class of their own

While Berger is on the coattails of Nigel

Good they ignored him and took up Coulthard

[past drift]

yeah that was the right move

[river cave]

now if only Coulthard didn't listen to his money hungry management and stayed at Williams

[past drift]

Coulthard Villeneuve would have been an interesting 96 season

[paper fossil]

Presumably DC wasn’t sure what Williams were going to do with him then (early and middle of 1994)

He ultimately made the right choice tbf

[paper fossil]

Tyrrells 1984 disqualification is fucking hilarious especially when long time Motorsport Magazine journalist Denis Jenkinson gets to have his straightforward word about Ken

“Ever since the first turbocharged engine began to make its presence felt, he has been mouthing off and putting in formal protests about turbochargers being additional power-producing engines and about teams using illegal petrol. He has opposed certain rule changes when everyone else has been in agreement, and has caused embarrassment to his fellow constructors by attending a FISA/FOCA meeting when he was not invited. In other words, he has not kept a low-profile, exactly the opposite in fact, which has made him very unpopular with a lot of people. In recent times Elf have felt forced to withdraw his free supplies of petrol and oil, and Renault have refused him the opportunity to use their turbocharged V6 engine, and BMW have conveniently avoided getting involved with his team. He has found little sympathy among the inner sanctums of the world of Formula One, and he must know why, even if the outside world does not.”

[wary oak]

I just learnt something cool about Juan Manuel Fangio. He has 29 pole positions in 51 races, which sounds pretty cool and exciting, which it is, but this part is even crazier. He had 48 front rows in ONLY 51 races. You read that correctly. He only qualified below P2 in only three instances. That means, for front rows, he had a percentage of 94.11 of starting P2 or higher for a race. If that isn't ridiculous, then I don't know what is.

[past drift]

that's frankly ridiculous yeah

[indigo phoenix]

This is either your nightmare or your dream blunt rotation

[paper fossil]

fine i think

[indigo phoenix]

I think it'd be fine till George Beatle took out his sitar

[paper fossil]

Ah well prefer Hunt pissing on the curtain that separates business from economy mid flight to Adelaide

[indigo phoenix]

You’d need the blunt to cope with that

[chrome basin]

that’s actually insane

the guy was super dominant back in the day

[paper fossil]

Brundle had tried to move on, mainly because of the uncertainty at the end of 1984, and had been offered a seat at Lotus alongside his old rival Ayrton Senna. Knowing that the renewal of his contract was due on 30th November, he thought it would automatically expire if Ken was unable to contact him: “So, I went to the Bahamas! I thought he can't get hold of me here, therefore, I won't know about the option being renewed, so I can join Lotus. Not a bit of it! Not only had he contacted my accountant, but at this hotel in the Caribbean, I was relaxing by the pool, and I heard this servant ringing a bell calling my name. Sure enough, on November 30th, there were my papers. He always did the 30th simply because something might happen, even if he knew he wanted you before that. But he exercised that date, so if, say, Senna came in with megabucks at the last minute, then at least he could change his plans. So, I was with Tyrrell again in 1985!”

As for Bellof, dispute rumbled on for several months before his position was settled. His manager, Willi Maurer, initially claimed that Bellof's three-year contract was nullified because of Tyrrell's ban. Then he came up with various conditions to be addressed and tried a bit of brinkmanship at the Brazilian Grand Prix, the first race of the season. Forty minutes before first practice was due to start, Ken received a list of 12 demands, two of which concerned a shortened term for the contract (1985 only rather than two more seasons) and Bellof's right to carry the identity of personal sponsors on his overalls (specifically Marlboro). Not surprisingly, Ken refused to be dictated to in this way and told Bellof that he was suspended for this one race.

The relationship with Renault was an uneasy one, not least because the team once again had to rely on French support, as mechanic Steve Leyshon remembers well: “The technical side was totally different now. We built the cars, but we couldn't do anything until this guy from Renault, Christian Blum, came. He had to specifically give the go ahead before we could do things. I remember a confab between Christian and Ken. Brundle's car went out and the head had come off the turbo compressor. It was solely down to this guy to check it before it went out and he hadn't done so. Ken: ‘Did you check the compressor heads?’ Blum: ‘Oui, Ken, we have our checks before the engine is signed off.’ ‘Yes, but did you check the compressor head?’ Now, Ken was totally English and he would repeat himself loudly, slowly and right in someone's face, and sure enough this is what he did to Christian, who replied ‘Er... non, I did not.’ ‘Well, you will now!’”

[outer pier]

happy birthday senna
64 years old, forever my hero.

[idle gale]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9mJQldYQhc&ab_channel=AidanMillward

[autumn wadi]

damn im gonna cry

[paper fossil]

Was barely Australian tbh

I would call it an Anglo-Australian cooperation

Mainly because a lot of the breed of engineers around that time in the 60s were from that part of the world

Tauranac was British and Australian

[river cave]

always found it weird seeing these old 50's era F1 cars with closed wheels

they look more like sportscars than open wheel F1 cars

[paper fossil]

The Maserati 300S was a sportscar

Not a GP car

Type Monza is the typical closed wheel grand prix car to think of

Which only ran in 4 gp in total

French GP of 54, British GP of 54 and the two Italian GP of 54 and 55

[outer tartan]

Me everyday

[paper fossil]

“So, you're a sponsor of a Formula 1 team in the 1980s. At the very least, you'd expect a nice lunch and a bit of a corporate welcome. Back then, of course, it was nothing like today, but you would expect a certain level of treatment. Obviously, teams like McLaren went that much further. But at Tyrrell... well, Norah, lovely woman, she would go to the local supermarket at every race, buy bread, cheese, tomatoes and other stuff to make sandwiches. And so, if you were a Tyrrell sponsor, okay, we used Elf's motorhome, but sometimes you got a box or crate to sit on, or maybe a deckchair if you m were really lucky, and cheese sandwiches made by Norah as your corporate lunch. You'd then look at McLaren or whoever and think... what I have done to deserve this! No wonder we couldn't keep sponsors. Ken wouldn't even speak to the sponsors. There was no corporate culture at all. ‘Waste of bloody money,’ Ken would mutter.” - Dave Newall (race mechanic 1986-1989)

“Ken was a man's man and wouldn't take any nonsense. He was one of the few to stand up to Jean-Marie Balestre [FISA and FIA President] at the awful drivers' meetings that Balestre would chair and drone on and on. I remember once when René Arnoux was sitting on a box, leant back, fell off the box and couldn't get up, stuck with his legs in the air. Well, everyone pissed themselves laughing apart from Balestre, who was furious that we should be laughing instead of listening to him. Ken spoke up and told Balestre to ease off.” - Julian Bailey

[past drift]

shame Ken wouldn’t be arsed with that, cause that’s what lost him any lead in the sports he had in the 70s

and got properly and finally ditched out in 84, dumped by his colleagues of the FOCA, Bernie Ecclestone and Frank Williams

[paper fossil]

That was all bollocks to be frank

A play for the turbo users to keep their boost bar high at least for 1985

And they only didn’t take the legal case further because of an agreement with FISA

They just had no money and Phillippe had no scope to develop concepts so eventually settled for just building reliable and easy cars

017 was a bit of a disaster but apart from that they were mostly just solid cars

011 was the last one with some great thinking

[past drift]

not the 012 in your opinion?

but yeah, shame they missed the train cause I believe they might still be around without that. but come 84 ando nly them sticking to the DFV.. or DFY whatevs, they were doomed

also the money they gave to Renault for the turbos in 85-86 was uhh, misused? forgot the word

[paper fossil]

Nah team members don’t think so

011

For them

[past drift]

so Renault was happy to ditch them as it was almost like working for free

ok 😄

[paper fossil]

A lot of the great stuff on the 012 got put onto the 011 late on in any case

[past drift]

tbf the 011 won 2 races while the 012 didn't win anything, even in 83 without the cheating

[paper fossil]

Well yes

The 012 should have won Monaco

But that was because of the naturally aspirated engine

[past drift]

yup

[paper fossil]

And some car problems for Prost

Senna broke his suspension

Would have retired eventually

[past drift]

would have been Bellof right

[paper fossil]

Yep

Brundle didn’t qualify

After his crash tabac

He’s told the story before

[past drift]

oh he didn't wualify even? i forgot the deets

[paper fossil]

He went back to the pitlane and asked Ken which track he was at

[past drift]

ohhh yeah

rings a bell now

[paper fossil]

Ken immediately switched off the engine

[past drift]

yeah that's very wise haha

[paper fossil]

They didn’t cheat in 84 anyway

Really

[past drift]

with his F1 career i find it hard to judge how good or bad Brudle was

[paper fossil]

FISA came up with the holes in bottom of the car excuse

While their other infractions made no sense

[past drift]

what about the lead in the water tanks

[paper fossil]

Like 0.004% or so of what you would find of minerals in your water at home

It was barely anything

They had a good case

But FISA just put them down for some shitty excuse

Brundle is right to be absolutely upset about all that to this day

[past drift]

it's not what iread

let me find it

[paper fossil]

• Art. 6.14: any refuelling during the race is forbidden.
• Art. 14.1.2: fuel not complying with the regulations.
• Art. 6.9: fuel lines must have safety breakaway valves.
• Art. 6.11: fuel lines must be capable of supporting a given pressure and temperature.
• Art. 4.2: ballast may be used provided that it is secured in such a way that tools are necessary to remove it. It must be possible to affix seals to it.

As far as Tyrrell was concerned, the team's findings about the water ‘contamination’ rebutted the first four of those accusations, while the fifth, concerning securing of ballast using tools, was erroneous in the team’s opinion because tools were indeed required to remove the tank containing the lead balls

[past drift]

(Detroit 84)

This race turned into a massacre game and Tyrrell-Ford-Cosworth almost repeated its hold-up from 1983. According to some journalists, Martin Brundle only missed one lap to win. This is not the opinion of the winner Nelson Piquet who affirms that he had perfect control of the situation. The pile-up at the start and the fact of having to pilot his mule did not disturb him in the least. Furthermore, the Brazilian did not change tires even though he had chosen the same Michelins as Alain Prost, who was much less well off. Piquet in fact started with “cold” rubbers while Prost had “hot” rubbers which wore out very quickly.

This second consecutive victory for Piquet revives the world championship. The Brabham-BMW seem to have regained their 1983 level. Will they be able to threaten the McLaren-TAG-Porsche? In the general classification, Prost increases his lead over Lauda to 10.5 points. De Angelis is four points behind the Austrian. Piquet is now fourth in the standings. Among manufacturers, McLaren remains well ahead of Ferrari, Lotus, Brabham and Renault.

Newbie Brundle's second place arouses enthusiasm in the Tyrrell clan. Edsel Ford II, the son of Henry Ford II, applauds the feat of this car which proudly displays the logo of his firm on its nose. His joy is short-lived. A few hours after the checkered flag, Brundle's 012 was examined in the parc ferme by Gabriele Cadringher and the other experts delegated by FISA. Ken Tyrrell calmly attends this ritual. His car exceeds the minimum tolerance by sixteen kilos. No problem. But when Cadringher asks to check the water tank, the smiles disappear. The commissioners discovered not water but a brownish liquid in which several dozen small lead balls were bathed. Cadringher begins a long discussion with Ken Tyrrell... Would the 012 be ballasted during the Grand Prix in order to reach the regulatory weight at the finish? Samples taken from Brundle and Bellof's cars are sent to laboratories in France and Texas. The Tyrrell affair begins...

[paper fossil]

Okay this is what they said

In response to FISA's announcement that the aromatic content of the water had been 27.2 per cent, a barely credible amount, the team commissioned independent analysis that found the true amount to be, in Bob Tyrrell's words, “one-thousandth of the contents of a teaspoon for every litre of water”. This, of course, was negligible — and significantly below the permitted 1.0 per cent and therefore within rules.

Prior to the Court of Appeal hearing, however, FISA came up with a different misdemeanour, concerning two small circular holes in the flat bottom of the 012. The holes were there simply to allow air pressure and excess water to escape during the water-spraying process - but having any such apertures contravened the regulations. Although Patrick Head of Williams and John Barnard of McLaren provided statements that these holes gave no aerodynamic or other advantage, they proved to be one of the factors in the tribunal's decision to reject Tyrrell's appeal. The other factors were, in FISA's words, “the presence of traces, however infinitesimal, of hydrocarbons which should not have been there” and “the impossibility for the stewards to fix seals on the ballast”.

All the turbo teams wanted to keep the 220 litres available

For 85

Ken stood in their way

And the clearly got annoyed by this

[past drift]

(Britain 84)

Scandal: the Tyrrells excluded...

The atmosphere is very tense because of the Tyrrell Affair. Since lead pellets and traces of fuel were discovered in the water tank of Martin Brundle's car in Detroit, the English team has been accused of running its cars below the permitted weight during the major part of the races, before weighing them down during illegal refueling. Which would explain why the Tyrrells always stopped to change tires in the last twenty laps.

On Wednesday July 18, the FISA F1 Commission meets in Paris to decide on the fate of the Tyrrell Racing Organization. Sixteen votes were in favor of exclusion from the world championship, against four invalid ballots. Even Bernie Ecclestone did not come to the aid of his FOCA friend. The list of offenses noted is impressive: refueling during the race when this is prohibited, fuel not complying with the regulations, pipes lacking self-sealing safety connections, etc. There are of course the results of the analyzes on the samples taken in Detroit and overwhelming testimonies. “We have too often been accused of being complicit with cheaters, the proof of our integrity is there! » thunders Jean-Marie Balestre. “We had long believed Tyrrell was guilty, but we needed proof. To do this, it was necessary to dismantle a single-seater and check it completely. [...] Ken Tyrrell admitted he was cheating on the weight. In Detroit, the weight of its lead ballast was such that two commissioners were unable to lift it. They estimated it to weigh more than 60 kg. Ballast is not prohibited, but it must be in one piece, attached to the chassis, and removable using a tool.

This was lead shot, easily transferable from the stand to the tank during the test. What's more is under pressure. The fault is therefore twofold. » Regarding the brownish liquid discovered in the water tank, it appears that the skin actually seemed intended to receive a special fuel. When it was emptied, the refueling made it possible via water to inject the shot, to restore the minimum weight to 540 kilos and to clean all traces of gasoline... In theory, because the laboratories would have discovered around 30% of gasoline in the samples. However, there is no evidence that this culture broth improved the performance of the Ford-Cosworth V8.

[paper fossil]

Totally bollocks in my mind

And it was before I read the book anyway

[past drift]

Martin's?

[paper fossil]

Like their analysis immediately rebuffed all 5 points of infraction

Again

[paper fossil]

The Tyrrell book

[paper fossil]

They tried to take this further

And then FISA caved in and allowed their travel to be subsidised again

Otherwise Ken would have won the cases I think

Ken was always in the moment not the past

So once that was guaranteed they could race again

All that really mattered

But them being branded as cheats to me is wrong

[past drift]

yeah i get ya

idk if it really mattered in the end, they were already out of cash and that's why they couldn't get the turbo i suppose

although... they should have been able to get Brian Hart's shitty inline-4... still better than the DFY

[paper fossil]

They got the turbo for 85 tbf

[past drift]

even John MacDonald's RAM had it

yeah but for 84

[paper fossil]

Was a competitive prospect still

[paper fossil]

Doubt it

Brian was running a business

So he put no money into it

Was not a great prospect

[past drift]

what about Cosworth not making a turbo until 86

[paper fossil]

i mean yeah

But the DFV to DFY was getting upgrades

And was a good package still

It has more positives than compromises

Tyrrell put the Renault turbo in for 85 and 86 and it didn’t do much in reality

According to Brundle

[past drift]

yeah, but for a turbo i-4 my very expert mind says it's not much of a change in the layout

[paper fossil]

Brian Harts turbo was a bit of a joke

Is the point

Ken would rather go for a Ford with the possibility of development than pay more for something Brian wanted to make money for

Which Ken respected

Renault deal sorted that out eventually

But Renault only stayed for Lotus

So as soon as Lotus announced their intention to run Hondas Renault was like “bye”

Much to the disappointment of Guy Ligier

[past drift]

hmm yeah probably, seeing their results they were way ahead of Toleman before being excluded

[past drift]

nah, they stayed as long as we were ran by a left wing govt

there were elections in 86 which the govt lost, so we got a right wing govt

which was for limiting spendings in public companies, which Renault was at the time

Ligier couldn't use his privileged relations with the president because the govt was from the other spectrum of the chamber

so Renault left, Lotus which was a good team found a solution, Ligier which was basically a state sponsored team couldn't find one

[paper fossil]

Was the French government subsidising some stuff for Renault

Thought that was just Elf and Ligier

[past drift]

Renault was state owned

[paper fossil]

Among other things previously

[past drift]

Elf was state owned

Loto, the sponsor for Ligier in 84 and 86 is the national lottery

and Gitanes? state owned too

[paper fossil]

Yes I know all that part

I just assumed the govt changing had little effect on Renault in the grand scheme of things but fair

[past drift]

cool, i actually forgot how much shit we had state owned then

[paper fossil]

Didn’t matter much to Ken anywau

[past drift]

i think it was a catalyst, if the govt didn't change they would have probably stuck to their stripped down F1 programme of only engines, because that bit showed results

[paper fossil]

He wanted to run the naturally aspirated engine

For 87

But yes Ligier had to go with the M12 which by then was on the end of a curve

[past drift]

when the govt changed in the same fashion in 93 at that point Renault was a winning force and was about to be privatised, so they stuck this time

[paper fossil]

83 was seriously the only good set of results for it

Which is poor

And by 83 really only the last leg of the season

[past drift]

when they cheated hmmmmmmm

[paper fossil]

Ah

Nah

[past drift]

is this time factual cheating in your book?

[paper fossil]

Again

There is confusion over that

The data of the octane levels that had Brabham above the rules is supposedly not to be trusted

And was outside the usual testing

So much Enzo didn’t go on with his protest

Because he knew the results weren’t clear enough

[past drift]

hmm right, i guess that's also why Renault also didn't go on with theirs

[paper fossil]

Some guys say some things from time to time

[past drift]

which annoyed Prost a lot

[paper fossil]

I choose to believe they pushed the limits

[past drift]

and got lucky for once

[paper fossil]

Prost was totally annoyed with the last weekend tbf

And there is also that supposed thing with Larrousses partner

Or whatever

[past drift]

what thing?

[paper fossil]

I don’t know how much of that is true but it might have played a part

[past drift]

yeah Prost being pushed out was very much a Larrousse thing

but then, they also had 2 turbo issues in the last 3 races for Prost

any of these races he doesn't get that, he wins the title cause he was in the good points

obviously, with ifs you can change the world

and same can be said with Piquet

[paper fossil]

https://x.com/raceliefhebber/status/1749892523005247998?s=46

Raceliefhebber (Wouter)🧡🏎 (@raceliefhebber) on X

A cheerful Alain Prost in 1983 at Zandvoort. That same weekend, Alain was caught with the wife of his team boss in his hotel room. His contract was therefore not extended at Renault. Alain moved to the McLaren team in 1984.

Twitter · Jan 23, 2024, 8:31 PM

This

Thing apparently

Team boss in 83 was Larrousse right

Might be another title for someone idk I just assumed that is what they meant

He has form

With Laffites wife 😭

Ngl i think it gets a bit over blown though because people claim he did it with Pironis new wife that Didier had married in early 82

Which is rubbish he and her had ruined their relationship and started seeing different people

Per the Tambay Ferrari years book

Like dude turns up with a new girlfriend at Hockenehim who proceeds to then be kicked out of the hospital kicking and screaming after his accident

[paper fossil]

A lot with Piquet tbh

Belgium

Detroit

Austria

And he doesn’t complain at all

Just does his job

Which is why as a driver everyone liked to work with him

Unless you were Nigel Mansell and he was calling your wife ugly

[past drift]

haha

[past drift]

yeah Larrousse was at Renault between 76 and 84, then he joined Ligier for 85-86 before doing his own team in 87

[paper fossil]

Ideal Prost is pants in wet races after this because he was so horrified

Piquet said the Ferrari cars were completely dangerous and illegal in response to seeing Pironi

Which is erm questionable it was a dammn airplane accident

Bound to go wrong

I mean yes the cars were dangerous within their own remit

Only have to look at Paul Ricard with Mass also

[past drift]

yeah

cars in 82 were crazy

[paper fossil]

Larrousse apparently hated the English in the aftermath of the 1983 season

Ngl it was mainly because the team acted like it was sewn up

Idk how he got on with Warwick mind

Esp when he could have won in his first gp for the team

[past drift]

yeah, really unlucky

[desert plover]

damn thats crazy

[oblique dock]

the Gerard Larrousse???

[paper fossil]

God I like when Hesketh realised the F2 Surtees car was just so shit they kept making the wing angles narrower and narrower before taking them off which made Hunt flip and almost die

[paper fossil]

When Horsley phoned Cosworth, he couldn't get past the receptionist. Even the store manager, Jack Field, wouldn't speak to him about buying DVFs. Field wouldn't waste time on him.

When Horsley reported this back to Lord Hesketh, the Lord mistakenly thought that Keith Duckworth might be one of his tenants and told Horsley to go and sort him out.

When Hesketh arrived at the Cosworth reception, he asked to speak to director Bill Brown. Brown's office was upstairs and his secretary buzzed him to say there was someone in receptio who wanted to buy two DFVs. By that time, Hesketh was already standing in Brown's office. "Who the hell are you?" asked Brown. "I am Lord Hesketh". "Well, if you want to see me, go down and clear it with my secretary"

Hesketh, not used to being spoken to in such a manner did as he was told and politely asked for an appointment, and, as he was already there, could it be now. From then on, everything went smoothly and he bought his engines."

[paper fossil]

"Hesketh's social budget was pretty much unlimited, and restricted only by the time he had available to spend. He rented a 162-foot yacht called "The Southern Breeze" for the Monaco Grand Prix.

Although Hesketh's spending on the team was to be dwarfed by his spending on entertainment, this was not so unusual at the time. Most sponsors spent more on hospitality than racing. Marlboro's hospitality budget was three times the amount it spent sponsoring its teams.

But Hesketh introduced excess to Formula One, Mosley remembers "Hesketh would start the day with a glass of champagne to settle his stomach".

As well as the yacht, Hesketh flew his Bell Jet Ranger helicopter down to Monte Carlo while his chauffeur drove his Rolls-Royce down. Hunt drove down in Hesketh's Porsche Carrera RS and another friend rode his Suzuki superbike across France.

Helicopters were a rarity in Formula One and a makeshift helipad was set up next to Monte Carlo's swimming pool.

The Southern Breeze was one of the biggest private yacht's of its day and it provided a base for the day-long parties. The Rolls-Royce was continually ferrying guests from Nice airport, and the helicopter was in and out of the heliport.

As the weekend progressed, the pile of empty champagne bottles built up on the quay, and the dust trucks put on an extra lorry to cope."

"Hesketh was pleased that his total expenditure for the season had been less than $100,000"

"After the race, Hunt threw himself into the celebrations. The party on The Southern Breeze lasted until the dawn of Monday morning. Hesketh, still in disbelief about how easy and cheap it all was, was pleased most of all by the fun he was having"

"The Hesketh team, exhausted by Monaco, and short of a spare engine, missed the next Grand Prix in Sweden. At least these were the excuses they gave. In reality, their reason was more basic. As Lord Hesketh said: "We forgot to enter.""

sounds like a right laugh

[indigo phoenix]

Oh to be employed by Hesketh

[paper fossil]

no wonder people thought they were taking the piss

[indigo phoenix]

They absolutely were and it’s great

[paper fossil]

"When asked how he had been persuaded to take the job, Poslethwaite said 'They got me drunk'"

[paper fossil]

I think what Tyrrell desperately needed towards the end of the 80s is for Camel to jump ship from Lotus

And put all their chips into Tyrrell

It was a better run outfit with the right people

Lotus was on the complete downturn

I don’t think it is shocking Lotus went kaput before them

Though Collins was a shrewd operator and tried his best

“Just before Paul Ricard, Ken told me that if I wanted to race with him, I had to become a Camel driver. I had been with Marlboro for many years, and I don't like to break contracts. I asked Ken to talk to Marlboro about it, but he said, ‘No, that's your problem.’ I was really mad about it and I said, ‘That's it. I don't want to drive for this team anymore. You do not have the mentality to be a winner.’ I think that is true. He will never be back as he was once. It is not the same Ken Tyrrell that I knew. I asked Marlboro to help to find me another team, but they said: ‘Sorry, you are not driving a car, so you are not with Marlboro anymore. You are free to do what you want.’ That was a big disillusionment.” - Alboreto

[past drift]

poor guy

then he found a seat for the rest of the season for Larrousse who was sponsored by checks notes Camel

[wary oak]

The largest percentage gaps in Qualifying are:

Mansell, Britain, 1992: 2.43% (+1.919)

Prost, France, 1983: 2.39% (+2.308)

Fangio, Monaco, 1950: 2.36% (+ 2.6)

Fangio, Argentina, 1956: 2.15% (+2.2 )

Ickx, Germany, 1968: 2.00% (+10.9)

Interesting how in a qualifying list of largest percentage gaps Prost is featured but Senna isn't.

Senna's largest percentage gap would be at the 1989 Japanese Grand Prix against Prost with a 1.76% (+1.730) but still wouldn't make the list.

[past drift]

would have thought Monaco 88 to be bigger

[paper fossil]

Think that was about 1.5 seconds wasn’t it

Glad you put percentages in

[past drift]

Monaco was “only” 1.699%

1.427 seconds

[paper fossil]

“I went down to the factory with Eddie [Jordan], and he was being typical Eddie, wheeler-dealing, giving it the Irish charm. At one point, while they talked, Eddie said, ‘Don't stay here, we'll try and get a better team’, saying that in front of Ken.” - Jean Alesi

[past drift]

haha

[wary oak]

I think it’s the second biggest

[paper fossil]

Talking to the author, Modena remembers how he was recruited: “I received a phone call from Ken Tyrrell. ‘Do you have a legal adviser?’ ‘Yes, I do, but why?’ ‘Are you able to visit us in England next Tuesday and bring your legal adviser?’ So, I arrived, still bemused because it was very unusual. There was no ‘Would you like to race for us.’ or ‘We like you’ and so on… “My legal guy was called Corluca and had worked as a lawyer for Ferrari, so he was very friendly with Jean Claude Migeot and Harvey Postlethwaite. When we got in the m meeting room, Corluca said hello to Ken and Bob and everyone else, then turned to Harvey, who said, ‘I don't want to say hello to you.’ There was shocked silence for a moment, then they all laughed.

[paper fossil]

At around this time there was an unfortunate faux pas with Honda that thankfully didn't cause a diplomatic incident. It concerned Nobuhiko Kawamoto, Honda's CEO, as Richard Impett recalled: “Mr Kawamoto was flying into Heathrow and was to be picked up by our van driver in Ken's BMW. Now, bear in mind that a lot of Japanese people are called Kawamoto. When our man held up a sign saying ‘Kawamoto-san’, he wasn't to know that he connected with another Mr Kawamoto. A little while into the journey, this Mr Kawamoto questioned where they were heading: ‘We should be going to London.’ Our van driver said, ‘No, East Horsley, Tyrrell.’ ‘What, who are they? I'm going into London to ICI!’ The van driver phoned in, much frantic discussion, then Bob Tyrrell went to collect our Mr Kawamoto, waiting at the airport, while our guy took the other Mr Kawamoto to ICI...”

[paper fossil]

“Yamaha had listened to previous complaints about their engine being too heavy. Then for 1996, they made the lightest V10 engine ever, which was great, but we found it mixed oil and water as soon as it got going. Now we had to change the engine at the end of every practice, qualifying and race. That meant nine changes per meeting. Well, by halfway through the season we had made an additional 52 unscheduled engine changes, with four in one night I remember. Dreadful.” - John Walton

[paper fossil]

https://x.com/classic_f1_fan/status/1773355242396041393?s=46

CazzyF1 (@Classic_F1_fan) on X

Imagine partying with Graham 💀

Twitter · Mar 28, 2024, 2:23 PM

[past drift]

rofl

[meager pewter]

Bro I love the bonkersness of JUDd-Yamaha

And Cosworth too, they dropped their Engine weights insanely hard in the late 90's

[paper fossil]

there is split opinion on the judd yamaha

of 3.5

to 3.0

some are more realistic about it

some others just straight up say it was awful

i might just compile it all together

later

was certainly better than having a Ford ED V8 in 1997 for christ sake

[glad orchid]

Where is this from

[paper fossil]

Think it is from his second biography

Just titled Graham

Wrote it with Neil Ewart I think

[paper fossil]

“Harvey, well, he was cold with me. I don't know why. But things started badly with him. I arrived late for the first test in Barcelona because I got lost driving from the hotel to the track. I didn't have GPS and I was on my own trying to work it out with a map. I took a wrong exit and I had to go back on myself. Anyway, that made me late. So, when I got there, I said, ‘I'm really sorry I'm late.’ Harvey took me to one side and said, ‘We all got here on time. Be late again and you'll be out.’ That was my beginning!” - Rosset

“Just to explain while I have the opportunity, once and for all, I spun at the corner, which was my fault, but what happened then was because of a problem with the clutch. What people saw was that I tried to spin round to the right direction but hit the barrier. Sure, it looked bad, but the clutch wasn't working properly… Then the scooter thing. Actually, I didn't get to hear about that until the end of the season. I'm told they did it, but someone must have asked them to change it before I got back, or they changed it themselves. So, I wasn't aware of it and wasn't affected by it. I'm sure if I'd known at the time it might have been different. It was very disrespectful to do that when someone is out there risking their life.”

[past drift]

so Colin Chapman was enlisted for 1 race, the 1956 French GP
He only did qualifying, but he qualified 5th, ahead of teammate and eventual World Champion Mike Hawthorn, in a Vanwall he had designed

didn't do the race however as he had an accident during the practice, and ig they were short on parts

[paper fossil]

I think people forget how crucial an element Chapman was to Clarks driving

In the sense he understood having been a driver himself what feedback being given actually related to car dynamics

It is said by Stewart, Surtees and Hill that mechanically he was not great

Take Chapman out of it and you would have to wonder how Clarks career could have gone

[past drift]

so in short Clark also had one of the best racing engineer of his period

which also happened to be an innovative car designer in his field

[paper fossil]

I think he had fantastic natural feeling of the car and had not much to think about

Which more than made up for the relative lack of understanding compared to others

Like he was mechanically sympathetic

Rare thing at the best of times with Lotus drivers I would say