#SOP and UCMJ Overhaul (Pending Community Feedback before Merge)

1 messages · Page 2 of 1

hollow condor
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nothing serious

dusky moth
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great

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the entire garage should be a safety hazard

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why are we even going there?

hollow condor
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wdym

dusky moth
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just minor things

stone viper
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wear your hardhats into the garage sop 🌛

hollow condor
dusky moth
# hollow condor wdym

Why are we marines being forced into a safety hazard of a garage holding ground and flight viechals?

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this aloen should designate said places as hazards

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hell we shouldnt even deploy

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take away these maps until we put in good safety inspections

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what would the osha say of this

hollow condor
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i dont see what you're arguing atp :/

dusky moth
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my argument is simple

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this rule only exists so mps can stroke their egos for memorizing SOP and neiche laws that no one will read

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and will only be used sparignly and when used most likely to target individuals the mps already has a meta disliek of

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and your argument of their existence is not convincing,

stone viper
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why are your sop updates leaving our crucial safety standards, smh

dusky moth
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if we are going to talk about realism

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no one spools any tihng indoors

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or in garages

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so if we are being realistic we shouldnt even have these veichals in the first place

stone viper
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the commander should not be ordering people into hazardous areas such as the flight deck

dusky moth
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jsut delete them for the sake of safety concerns

hollow condor
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vtols cant move unless spooled

dusky moth
dusky moth
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let alone in garages

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hmm a conondrum

stone viper
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also, where are the fire marshals? there are to many people in the ship

dusky moth
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what is it that we do

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apply arbitirary safety changes to the sop that only exist for mps to abuse

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and wasnt it rules written in blood

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are game maps being too small so we park vtols next to humvees an excuse

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no no rules are written in blood

hollow condor
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sir

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the offense is literally an NKP

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and MPs arent required to enforce crimes

dusky moth
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So??

hollow condor
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if you think an MP is just being an ass just ahelp it

dusky moth
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sir,

hollow condor
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im a woman

dusky moth
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i call everyone sir but okay

stone viper
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I call everyone sir for equality

dusky moth
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and

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i wanst calling you a sir

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i was going to say sometihng and i quote talkign to my self here

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-sir sir you dont get it, the punishment is small just a njp i dont get why you are mad over adding a law against breathing air while leaning to the left-

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it does not matter what the punishment is or how small it is

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when the crime it self or said crime is not comprehensible or reasonable

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i dont care if the punishment is being told to spell air, or taking 1 second to breath or any minor thing, if the crime it self is incomprehensible

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Do you know, what would happen, if a vtol actually spooled up inside an enclosed garage? or a crowded parking lot? the heat or downwash and what it would do? let alone the ships we have?

I do not get why you are applying that logic ONLY for why you should wear hard hats and not berets,

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any ways this entire thing is just a response to this i am going back to studying

dusky moth
# hollow condor and MPs arent required to enforce crimes

and this point is useless to be even mentioned, and?? does that change anything to the fact that this does nothing but add another thing mps who want to valid hunt to valid hunt about? i dont get why this is being metnioned or how its even releated to any of my arguments,

and what do i ahelp about? an mp enforcing sop? -admin admin help This mp was litirally doing his job and that hurt my feeling-

hollow condor
knotty rock
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what is the point behind this?

image.png
hollow condor
knotty rock
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I mean isn't this already against the rules?

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admin rules and stuff

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But it also doesn't seem fit for SOP purpose

hollow condor
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idk...?

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it got put in SOP because you can ASK for DNRs

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or get them after rightful trial

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per troy

knotty rock
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I thought you can already DNR without asking

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just by simply ghosting

hollow condor
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no?

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DNRs cant be issued

dusky moth
kind spade
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Negligent Use of Resources đŸ”„

dusky moth
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i am the ds and i will suck 90% of req points

kind spade
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well mister DS

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CAS is now

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PROHIBITED

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because we're on a space station

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whoops

waxen mica
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i aint reading all that

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i just like war crimes

dusky moth
# dusky moth i will leave this here because i have an exam tommorow

And the thing is if there were mechanical things such as hats or berets acting like FOD and being sucked in breaking vtol ruining the operation and youre gonna be the guy that delayed op by 10 min these changes would be fine and understandable, if they exist to solve mechanical problems it would be amazing,

but lets see we are introducting restrcitions and laws for the sake of muh realism, While we hmm have vtol jet engines inside enclosed crowded garages near humvees where marines stand inches away asometimes crowding the entire place in a large amount and our concern is... adding saluting and helmet laws for the sake of realism?

if we want ot be realistic indoor engine operations shouldnt be allowed, infact if maps are too small to make it realistic we shouldnt even have vtol,

yet we break realism to play normally, yet also use realism to add arbitrary SOP micromanegments that does nothing but add friction between players and give mps mechanical excuses to valid hunt or power trip over things that have zero impact on roleplay gameplay or actual round safety,

but you see its only a verbal warning to its totally fine, mps only get to verbally warn you and feel good inside, no longer is it a njp to feel good inside

zenith grove
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1- Why do grooming standards not apply to Synths
2- Why is NEMO allowed to issue DNRs?
3- Why are Combat Synths even allowed with SOP
4- Can you make Rank Authority a bit clearer? It reads that captain DPs can overrule JOs, etc
5- If this is going into the guidebook, go through it with a spell checker, save yourself some stress.

hollow condor
lethal quiver
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because if there's nothing physical stopping the baldening then the baldening should be allowed

solid plinth
hollow condor
hollow condor
solid plinth
hollow condor
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lemme have pink hair in peace bro

solid plinth
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Lowkey if someone wants to make a system that forces SOP grooming standards for GOVFOR/OPFOR I'd speedmerge it.

hollow condor
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its called just

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remove the violating hairstyles

solid plinth
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So obviously civilians can have long and colorful hair.

hollow condor
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they dont have rights anyways troy

solid plinth
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It'd probably be really easy to do imo, I'm just lazy.

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I know goob already set it up at one point.

hollow condor
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you can restrict uh

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certain hairs

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per job

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and species

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its a wizden componet iirc

hollow condor
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some of our GOVFOR Synths are also colony sold

solid plinth
hollow condor
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its really not that big of deal imo

crude olive
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I always thought anime hair synths looked stupid as hell

static plinth
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Most synths in cm13 use normal colours and hairs

hollow condor
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wait is my sytnh hari even pnik

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one sec

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nvm we're good

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shes just another soulles read head

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😌

hollow wren
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I feel like its a bit crazy not even the CO can order DNRs

hollow condor
solid plinth
hollow wren
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Hmmm

quick portal
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@dusky moth The entire point of adding SOP concerning saluting in the proper places is

  1. Whether it's likely to happen or not if it is a safety hazard then it is going to be in SOP. For example, leaving a pallet standing on its side is a fine under OSHA guidelines of literally thousands of dollars because it can possibly result in someone getting hurt. Combine that with the fact that vehicle mechanics are very clunky, then it's not crazy to see why discipline and standards are being enforced in RP

  2. To cultivate a much more RP centered environment I think it makes sense to integrate roleplay inconveniences as long as they aren't significant. This is no different from enforcing things like Enlisted not calling NCOs Sir, it doesn't matter if functionally it's harmless, the Roleplay is the most important part of the game and it is my understanding that with this fork we want to cultivate an even more RP centered gameplay loop than other CM style forks.

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I also think it's denigrating your point that you approached the discussion by trying to be very disingenuous out the gate with poor analogies about safety precautions

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also I don't know lack of discipline and respect in GOVFOR players is not good for RP and enforcing SOP centered around being self aware and responsible is valid in roleplay

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if you ask me disrespect of a superior isn't enforced strictly enough as is godo godo godo godo godo godo godo

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the proper response if you get told off for a minor violation is "Yes (Rank)" and then you correct yourself

mighty ginkgo
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Like, I say that ONLY for escaping brig while jailed

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I couldn't imagine being in the shoes of an MP because of it lmao

zenith grove
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we need some kind of nerve stapling tier shit for prisoners like this

mighty ginkgo
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Not to mention IF they see they can deal damage to the walls, they will spend the next 10 minutes to break it so they can die again

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It leads to so many shit situations where I'll hear crazy stuff like MPs just straight tossing lethal frag grenades into the cell once the fucking crackhead inside busts down the door like he's Jason

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And I walk into brig and none of the doors are present

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If I was MP I'd have blown my shit off

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People like that DO NOT add to the RP and needn't exist in the round at that point

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In fact it brings everyone's experience down

hollow condor
mighty ginkgo
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It gets to the point where not even those people who are really shitty to cops in bodycam vids don't even act likt this lmao

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I'm talking to Troy

mighty ginkgo
hollow condor
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@mighty ginkgo

mighty ginkgo
# hollow condor <@795253336408064030>

I typed my whole thing in direct response to that message which, yes, yes, I have read with my eyes to point out cases like this that just straight take away from the round

mighty ginkgo
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Personally I've seen far more roleplay value from people who actually make an effort to request the counsel and be civil instead of the guy who opts to bust everyone's balls because he got jailed forever for mass murder

hollow condor
mighty ginkgo
hollow wren
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Issue fixed

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Hell if its a larp thing make it a forced cryo mechanic

mighty ginkgo
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Even for Bush your options are lock down every cell or nothing

hollow wren
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Uh nah solitary is ass

mighty ginkgo
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Stable Garrison has one of the worst because no podlocks, the only half serviceable one for planet maps that I've seen is Barker's because it gets podlocks and window shutters

hollow wren
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Honestly I feel like gameplay wise executions on mass scales would be preferable

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Prison RP is just so ass

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Thank God the only time I’ve been imprisoned here an ERT broke me out

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But it was NRP perma

drifting compass
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Tear gas

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The tear gas grenade straight into cell

dusky moth
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Whether it's likely to happen or not if it is a safety hazard then it is going to be in SOP. For example, leaving a pallet standing on its side is a fine under OSHA guidelines of literally thousands of dollars because it can possibly result in someone getting hurt. Combine that with the fact that vehicle mechanics are very clunky, then it's not crazy to see why discipline and standards are being enforced in RP

Kit argued and i quote "Our maps arent big enough so we vtol in garages, that is why i added this minor safety point into sop because we vtol in garages"

there is a much bigger concern here then saluting on wearing beret in this you see this right??

We unrealistically vtol in garages and so we will realistically enforce arbitrary safety standards, in said garages because we unrealistically vtol in them, I have no problem what so ever adding these changes but realistically the salute will only exist on the flight path and within veichals, well why is it expanded to garages when actual soldiers salute in garages just fine? and why is it added to active parking lots when soldiers salute in active parking lots?
Well you see because we vtol in said garages,

wearing a beret in garages or active parking has more punishment time then NUR, a ds can swallow 90% of req points and gets 5 min in jail but god forbid you wear a beret,

(You can happily look for one yourself, but again due to us storing air vehicles in garages, of which must be spooled to move, the rule was written
also because currently our air vehicles (liek vtols) are also stored in the same garages and parkign lots as ground vehicles
due to lack of mapping
so again)

lets be real here, 90% of people will not read or see this as a thing, and thier only interation with this addition will be is an mp giving them an njp because they saluted, and if tehy argue because to thier knowledge that is stupid as shit, they can get extra punishment,

So even in roleplay you get a net negative

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except mps mps get an amazing tool in thier pockets,

finite palm
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i feel like this is redundant.

image.png
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just give standard equipment regulations

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for all shipside personnel not deploying

hollow wren
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I wonder how fast these rules would get downsized if one or two MPS just enforced them all every round

finite palm
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not even RMC had this level where they were only allowed a pistol while unchambered

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like what.

hollow wren
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I feel like you could arrest the CO like 4 minutes into the round

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Most rounds

finite palm
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this feel like it goes against free modification.

image.png
hollow wren
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"Sorry vros the CO wore his blue colored shoes instead of his black, which is a 5 minute jail time service, due to blue shoes only being permitted for ceremonies."

finite palm
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this doesnt need to be SOP

image.png
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this can be used as a murder charge

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or etc.

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Do we not realise that SOP and UCMJ are the same? this is redundant.

image.png
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this goes directly against self preservation laws.

image.png
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/ is a lil lrp anyways

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case by case in round basis, this is rather redundant.

image.png
dusky moth
finite palm
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Alot of this is just redundant

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and some of this has content that is not in

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yet approved

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@hollow condor why would military command report to civilian law enforcement.

image.png
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it doesnt make sense.

drifting compass
finite palm
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yeah

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anyways

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tldr its redundant

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Ill do a proper review on github

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i have multiple concerns with alot of the SOP stuff.

hollow condor
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provost

finite palm
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Specify that.

finite palm
kind spade
finite palm
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Giving a -1 until rather large alterations

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The kinks need to be sorted out because there’s rather pain in the ass issues.

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A commander shouldn’t be arrested on the field because govfor spawned with rifles instead of an smg

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They also shouldn’t get arrested for having a preloaded firearm

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It’s a bit stupid to ask for players to follow that.

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“Don’t follow sop then” the point is that it’s for rules they have to.

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Also the fact that synths can go into the AO alone freely is a bit insane

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And it’s specified that it’s 10 minutes?

obtuse hearth
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Because we have no rule against it

finite palm
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Shrug

obtuse hearth
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I agree entirely, just telling you it’s not there

hollow condor
finite palm
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Anyways

obtuse hearth
finite palm
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Specified for 10 minutes comes with an issue of “he said she said they said, etc”

hollow condor
finite palm
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Due to their roleplay standards

hollow condor
finite palm
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So if a synth or command breaks UCMJ it becomes an issue that’s handled for admins because it’s a rule break

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I’m getting a lot of these issues as petty, in terms of enforcing.

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Like imagine someone getting reported because they have a rifle instead of an smg

obtuse hearth
hollow condor
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No reason for shipsjde staff to have long arms on the ship

finite palm
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I brought this up above

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It’s redundant, it should be a generalised shipside procedure

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Like

hollow condor
finite palm
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Smgs are also contrary to this because smgs are the main gun on half the govfors

finite palm
obtuse hearth
glad geyser
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This should not be handled by a player, especially game rules. Leave it to the hosts and the staff team

hollow condor
obtuse hearth
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Wasn’t twinkle already doing this?

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Or am I buggin

hollow condor
obtuse hearth
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Ah

hollow condor
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Same with Troy and Jasen

obtuse hearth
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I honestly see no issue with most of this, but it does need tweaks for sure

hollow condor
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This is why PRs are reviewed

finite palm
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Specifically

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I think the sop referring to content needs to be merged first like

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NEMO

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Nemo doesn’t exist yet

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Or like vehicle sop

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Technicians are not allowed to deploy

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Because they are support personnel

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And it says solely that technicians are in charge of vehicles

amber heron
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Is there any SOP that prevents command taking heavy weaponry thats NOT from req?

finite palm
hollow condor
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So yes

finite palm
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Instead of making a command specific equipment sop

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It should be generalised

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Long arms are restricted for shipside personnel, with the caveat of pistols.

obtuse hearth
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the TWE PDW is a rifle

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Btw

finite palm
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Just remember that anything for synth or command needs to be considered with the potential of rolebans and dewhitelists

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Like imagining getting role banned because you’re using a rifle while deployed

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LOL

obtuse hearth
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once we get a full major update, ranks will determine authority, NO question

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ranks will matter

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@hollow condor has Troy talked to you about changing the Synths cant give orders shit

hollow condor
obtuse hearth
hollow condor
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That’s another rule change though

obtuse hearth
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with his idea for the new ranks, he wants them to have actual authority

hollow condor
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Ok

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I’ll have to update game rules alongside that

obtuse hearth
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heard

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uhhh do you have the GITHUB link to this

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cant find it

obtuse hearth
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ok im reading this again, you MUST wear a helmet in vehicle areas

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ok so

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thats to much

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thats reaching in the HRP+ area

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no ones enforcing that unless their an asshole

hollow condor
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You can just take off your hat

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And hold it in your hands

obtuse hearth
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thats like, so uneeded😭

waxen mica
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Current Ranks, SOP its a Big shit whoever its writing them its making a shit job

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Bias ranks and SOP that help more shitters than players, ok Bro i know you LOVE being pilot theres your MAJOR rank and fuck off the Commander ❀

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I Guess i can be LRP/NRP in the brig and make everyone Life miserable because if the MP DECIDES to do something he IS the one getting noted or banned đŸ˜đŸ€©

obtuse hearth
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and with the major GOVFOR change coming they will be lower

jovial slate
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i will adapt his in my rule rework but i wont allow it to be added in full as a PR no made by me

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from there ill see what i want to change up

hollow condor
jovial slate
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ah wait read it wrong

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thing is

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we dont want CO's to deploy to the Area of operatons

hollow condor
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From CO

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after talking with Troy

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In HRP Wl

jovial slate
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also wrong rule change

hollow condor
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wdym

jovial slate
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we have two tabs

hollow condor
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Did I type it under the wrong rule

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Fuck me

jovial slate
jovial slate
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idk which one your tryin to change

hollow condor
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Whichever one bans CO from deploying

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Even though current SOP allowed them
.

solid plinth
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Plus they’ll be permas problem up on the orbital.

finite palm
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SOP doesnt matter

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thats how we're supposed to enforce it

quick portal
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@hollow condor thinking about @dusky moth's issues with the saluting regulations,

I understand what you're going for and would rather propose reducing the broadening the section to refer to Traditional Conduct and Honors and include clear provisions about Saluting in general as well as the use of honorifics, perhaps even just move it under the charge of Disrespect of a Superior

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Avoid saluting in any area which may require heightened attention to safety, have hazardous materials, or have moving equipment which can injure the body including firing ranges, vehicle work areas or motorways, surgical suites, chemical handling rooms, cargo lifts, maintenance access shafts, reactor facilities, artillery batteries, etc.

Avoid saluting in any area with a hostile presence such as within an area of operations, including secure checkpoints or outposts outside of the FOB, as well as during any situation of duress such as a breach of security.

dusky moth
# obtuse hearth I cant find the part about berets

Head Covers in Vehicle Operations Area (HCVO)

Wearing a non-strapped head cover (i.e. berets, patrol caps, beanies, etc.) on flight line, in garages, on designated vehicle travel paths, ACTIVE parking lots, is forbidden for personnel safety.
NJP
Second offense: 7 minutes.

wearing a beret gets you 7 min, using 90% of req points gets you 5 min godo

and like i said even if we add this jsut for the sake of the larp and ignore the very clear valid huntable aspect of this addition,

in real life this law only exists in veichals flight paths or veichal paths,

why did kit extrapolate the rules to include garages and parking lots when that isnt even in real life ie the saluting and the beret

(zyadRole icon, GOVFOR/OPFOR Player — Yesterday at 11:43 PM
okay great not hard to bring me a real life source of salutes being banned in motor pools or garages or active parking lots
Flight line salutation being banned in understandable,
Kit (Leah Kaiminski) #1 Prodigy [RMC], Role icon, Contributor
OP
— Yesterday at 11:44 PM
you can happily look for one yourself, but again due to us storing air vehicles in garages, of which must be spooled to move, the rule was written)

because and i quote we spool air vehicles in garages, Which if we are going to be realistic about this, this shouldnt even be a thing if we want realism we should just delete the air vehicles or map a place specific for them can you imagine actually spooling air vehicles in closed parking lot with a bunch of marines?

also because currently our air vehicles (liek vtols) are also stored in the same garages and parkign lots as ground vehicles
due to lack of mapping
so again
polus first offense is just an NJP)

dusky moth
# dusky moth ## Head Covers in Vehicle Operations Area (HCVO) Wearing a non-strapped head cov...

Now why is the fix of us unrealistically storing and having air vehicles in the same garages and parking lots as ground vehicles which kit admits is due to a lack of mapping being fixed with arbitrary sop changes that will not result in a single net benifit in any thing not roleplay not game mechanics not actual safety,

so we fix unrealistic matters that we just ignore to play normally because - that is what normal human beings do- By adding arbitrary SOP changes under the guise of realism,

As far as i know most additions should be a net positive, you shouldnt add things just for the sake of adding things let alone when these additions are net negatives,

any normal mp will not enforce this sop, any one that does will very clearly be a valid hunting shitter, and you can not report that, what do you do? report an mp following sop? Really? and what is the admin going to do? Please dont follow sop?

lets be realistic the average encounter will be either following orders while opening a ticket and wondering why the fuck is this mp asking you to do a njp or giving you a verbal warning for wearing a beret or saluting the dead corpses of your comrades brought back, and be told oh thats just sop, Or you just think its an ic rp thing and they are just giving you a warning nto releated to sop, and then get surprised wen you get 5 min jail when you do the same action again,

i just do not get what we get out of this, if its realism then it should stop at it being in flight pathways and in vehicles, why extrapolate it to garages or parking lots? to get the largest amount of violaters? i truly fail to understand the point of any of this,

quick portal
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the military salutes officers but sometimes it's dangerous to salute an officer so to make sure people get hurt we don't let them render salutes in places where it's dangerous

dusky moth
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not saluting in battle not saluting in veichal pathways

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real life laws copy and pasted

quick portal
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no item or feature or map is removed or changed

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and Marines have to be more aware of their surroundings

dusky moth
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But kit extrapolated this to add garages and parking lots because i quote "also because currently our air vehicles (liek vtols) are also stored in the same garages and parkign lots as ground vehicles
due to lack of mapping
so again
polus first offense is just an NJP)"

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why is this being fixed with a sop change? why include garages and parkign lots because we unrealistically have this due to a lack of mapping

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if a vtol is spooling an inch away from 2 squads of marines we have bigger problems to talk about then wearing a beret or saluting godo

quick portal
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NJPs can be anything including getting chewed out, the NJP has to fit the spirit of the law when issued, and furthermore I doubt it will even be issued unless an argument commences

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the solution is to just not argue with an MP or superior and submit an ahelp if you feel they are wrong about SOP

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"Put your helmet on or leave your head uncovered here it's a safety hazard"
"Okay"

dusky moth
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again

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like i said this is adding a friction points betwen the playerbase

quick portal
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do you not have any issue with enforcing grooming standards because how is that any different

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yes it's military RP bro

dusky moth
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that will most likely the nnot result in a negative result and opinion

dusky moth
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i ahve no problem with adding these 2 points

quick portal
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no one is ever forced to play as a military character to take part in roleplay or combat in this server

dusky moth
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i have a problem with kit extrapolating to include areas which arent included in real life

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why is this law enforced in parking lots or garages?

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Because we spool air crafts in them,

Why are we spooling aircrafts in them?

quick portal
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because vehicles are moving in garages or parking lots

obtuse hearth
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I just think it’s unneeded

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Literally no need

dusky moth
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not when stationary

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Hold on bro hold on i am going to just see something real quick

quick portal
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also because air mobile vehicles are vastly more utilized in the aliens universe and the Blackbird must be transported by a dedicated drop ship or Aerospace vehicle so in frontier worlds with minimal infrastructure units deployed with Blackbirds have to make due with impromptu staging areas for it

quick portal
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nor is there any need to actually wear helmets since their armor rating isn't accounted for

obtuse hearth
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Helmets aren’t required

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Btw

quick portal
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LOL why

obtuse hearth
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Because

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It’s not HRP+

quick portal
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I think we should add features and operating procedures which incentivize playing a role regardless if people trip up on it because we are roleplaying

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I don't know, half of all feedback posts are about LRP

(here are a few threads referring to SOP and RP issues)
#1513907067000459395
#1503044493908381806
#1514319852398182582

dusky moth
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I have searched, and multiple tiems at that

quick portal
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GOVFOR war crimes, CLF war crimes, round removing, violating SOP, disrespect of superiors

dusky moth
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as kit told me to feel free to look it up my self

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only times where you are exempt from a salute is if you are a passanger or driving a car,

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Guard gates must salute vehicles,

#

outdoor garages or airfields must salute,

#

Indoor garages you can choose to not salute,

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But its not a -you must not salute-

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Not a single militairy paper or g uideline

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if you or kit can find me a single source about this i will concede completely,

quick portal
#

per Marine and Army regulations including AR600-25 use broad language to refer to work and hazard areas as places exempt from salutes

Because the Blackbird is sporadically issued and not an Aerospace vehicle many FOBs lack the infrastructure to support a dedicated landing pad for it so parking and garage areas are used

therefore the garage and parking lot can become a hazard area

this is regardless of in units with vehicle operations in FOBs the garage and parking lot is no longer a place used for static commuter vehicles but for constantly rotating military vehicles with poor visibility and large silhouettes

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I don't even understand why you are hung up on a source because the point is that "we have special procedures for our vehicles so garages and parking lots can be hazardous areas" so it's not really analogous to the real world in that way

the analogue that we are drawing is that you shouldn't salute in a hazard area

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we never see a garage or parking lot not in or near an operations area in game

dusky moth
#

as far as i am reaidng its when you are doing something that is hazardous can you please cite a source on the hazardous area

Screenshot_2747.png
quick portal
#

come on man

dusky moth
#

cant find it man

quick portal
#

tanks and VTOLs are staged and often moving in these areas

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that's what makes them hazardous in game

dusky moth
#

and what i am reading is engaging in an activity where salutation are by nature hazardous

(okay great not hard to bring me a real life source of salutes being banned in motor pools or garages or active parking lots
Flight line salutation being banned in understandable,
Kit (Leah Kaiminski) #1 Prodigy [RMC], Role icon, Contributor
OP
— Yesterday at 11:44 PM
you can happily look for one yourself, but again due to us storing air vehicles in garages, of which must be spooled to move, the rule was written)

i seem to be unable to find such a source, perhaps i am missing something,

dusky moth
# quick portal tanks and VTOLs are staged and often moving in these areas

ar 600 doesnt mention hazardous area, and only mention of baning salutes is working as a member of a detail or engages in sports or social functions where saluting would pre sent a safety hazard,

at the beggining of this entire argument i asked simple question, as you see rules are written in blood right,

are there any in real life sources? if there is, then this argument ends right? but i cant find one, all i am asking is for any one here to find me one,

#

because if you cant then it stands that this is an arbitrary change

quick portal
#

I feel we should take a step back because I don't understand your point, is your point that there is no source we should not salute in a hazardous area? or that the garages and parking lots in game are not hazardous areas?

dusky moth
#

if you can then my argument doesnt need to exist

dusky moth
# quick portal I feel we should take a step back because I don't understand your point, is your...

okay great not hard to bring me a real life source of salutes being banned in motor pools or garages or active parking lots

what i asked kit,

you can happily look for one yourself, but again due to us storing air vehicles in garages, of which must be spooled to move, the rule was written)

What kit said,

Then there should be sources from real life where salutes are banned in motor pools or garages or active parking lots,

cant find them,

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i am not arguign wheather or not its not a hazardous area i am asking where in real life are salutes banned in such places

dull lance
quick portal
#

I didn't say it would

dusky moth
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or comes from real life

dull lance
#

especially such retarded changes like "ermmm no fixed headcover in hangars and parking lots please or we put u in a jail!"

dusky moth
#

banning it on active airways?

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sure

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real life copy and paste,

dull lance
#

its only gonna decrease the rp quality matter-of-fact

dusky moth
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But why is it extrapolated to garages and active parking lots, No idea

dull lance
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because people r gonna be more bitter about MPs and officers

quick portal
#

the punishment isn't to put you in jail unless it is done in disregard of a previously informed order

dusky moth
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this surely SURELY will most definitely NOT be used to valid hunt,

dusky moth
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it does not matter how small the punishment is

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if the crime it self is incomprehensible

quick portal
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almost no minor SOP violations will result in jail time unless you do it repeatedly in disregard of prior warnings

dull lance
dusky moth
#

@quick portal youre forbidden from breathing while looking to the right, the punishment of doing so is blinking

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but you see i dont get why you are mad

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you only need to blink

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why are you so mad over this

dull lance
#

if u expect MP playas to not be hardasses over le ic rules then ur very wrong

quick portal
#

come on guys

dusky moth
#

its not like you are being put in jail

finite palm
#

Remember sop breaks for command lead to admin intervention

quick portal
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I really don't feel like this is very genuine @dull lance @dusky moth

finite palm
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Breaking a law as command = admin intervention / punishment

dusky moth
dull lance
#

i just deadass dont

dusky moth
dull lance
#

we already cut out hair regs (which made the most sense btw)

dusky moth
#

and when i do look it for my self i am being told its not very genuine

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hmmm

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I wonder

quick portal
#

hair regs are not removed they are planned to be enforced mechanically

dusky moth
#

i wonder why that is

quick portal
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not except for synths

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per troy

dusky moth
dull lance
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(never)

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also mechanical enforcement kinda sucks

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it lessens le player interaction

dusky moth
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@quick portal look genuinely bro

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genuinely

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like follow me in this,

quick portal
dusky moth
#

Why is this law added to garages or parking lots, - because we vtol and have them in teh same areas due to lack of mapping-

is this a problem to be fixed in sop?

quick portal
dusky moth
quick portal
zenith grove
dusky moth
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like way more then saluting or wearing a barret

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like way way fucking more when it comes to realism

quick portal
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literally no the point of the VTOL is to be able to operate and land in rugged and unprepared terrain with little maintenance cost on the vehicle itself

dull lance
#

nevertheless the only thing that matters is the community's feedback on dis

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and i think most people will outright say this is retarded

dusky moth
zenith grove
#

All atkinsons are hard cases

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They need a strong hand

quick portal
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I don't really see what the point is of playing an RP game if you don't want to RP

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at least an MRP dedicated server

dusky moth
hollow condor
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I ain’t reading all of that

quick portal
#

and that isn't to say we shouldn't listen to or accommodate the community

but

I think it's in bad faith to say that GOVFOR shouldn't have provisions about discipline and operating IRP because they have friction points

dusky moth
#

@quick portal sure i want to roleplay, i feel the idea of vtols existing in closed garages or parking lots filled with marines and not dedicated areas - due to mapping issues- is extremely unrealistic and the spooling of these vehicles alone is extremely dangerous to marine and personel, i feel the existence of these breaks my rp, and is lrp, we need to either map them or remove these vehicles until this extreme problem is fixed,

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my argument here isnt rp

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and y ou keep strawmanning it

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i have no problem this law being introduced

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But my problem is a very very simple one,

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so this law is added to garages and parking lots, hmm i see i see why is that? because vtol spooling, i see i see, and rather then care about any of the 100 possible hazards taht come before saluting or wearing a beret, we add a sop law for berets and saluting because its a hazardous area,

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i see, very HRP very sensible and understandable and it makes complete sense,

Do you legitimately not see a single issue with this line of thinking

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like do you not see a single issue with these steps that we took to conclude why these sop addition was made?

zenith grove
dusky moth
zenith grove
#

We need more roblox players

dusky moth
#

which again i have zero problem with if it was flight paths or clearly hazardous area

quick portal
dusky moth
zenith grove
quick portal
# dusky moth like do you not see a single issue with these steps that we took to conclude why...

I see your point but I feel like the situation you are thinking of doesn't really exist, in the sense that we essentially never see core military infrastructure, it's either vessels or frontier outposts with limited infrastructure, that is the RP reason why garages are included

as well these are areas with high activity levels and so garages and parking lots are exceedingly active compared to traditional commuter lots which is another hazard to account for, that is the RP reason why we probably shouldn't worry about rendering a salute there

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we don't have an IRL vehicle equivalent to the Blackbird in the way we are discussing

hollow condor
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last I checked IRL VTOLS or helicopters don’t HAVE to spool to move anywhere

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The Blackfoot has to spook to move

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Even then irl fixed wings are nicked by buggies (still NSZ)

solid plinth
#

@hollow condor I reviewed it, here are all the changes I need you to make for your PR:

Add periods to sentences that are missing them.
Grammar pass the entire thing, there are quite a few misspellings.
Detainment Authority should not be in SOP as its already outlined in UCMJ.
DNR should be moved to a section under UCMJ.
Attack dropship needs a definition and should be renamed to 'gunship'.
Every instances of "Commanding Officer" needs to be replaced with "Acting Commander."

"The Acting Commander may issue special equipment on a case by case basis, such as special headsets or special weaponry for certain personnel or units as long as it does not violate the UCMJ or a specific ban as stated in SOP" should be changed to "The Acting Commander may issue special equipment on a case by case basis, such as special headsets or special weaponry for certain personnel or units as long as it does not violate the UCMJ or SOP."

Remove "Synthetic units are exempt, unless their users manual states otherwise" from grooming standards.

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Change "OOC Note: Character appearance is a significant part of roleplay and can greatly impact a player's experience. For this reason, if you choose to enforce grooming standards, you must allow the player to either adjust their own hairstyle or choose a new one for themselves. If they deny any hair style AHelp an admin for advice." to " "OOC Note: Character appearance is a significant part of roleplay and can greatly impact a player's experience. For this reason, if you choose to enforce grooming standards, you must allow the player to either adjust their own hairstyle or choose a new one for themselves. If they refuse to choose one or select one themselves, you may give them any haircut/facial hair within grooming standards."

"Only Technicians may operate APC's, Tanks, IFV, and similar vehicles." should be changed to "Only vehicle crewmen may operate APC's, Tanks, IFV, and similar vehicles. In the absence of vehicle crewmen, they may be operated by any combat arms personnel assigned to the vehicle by the vehicle commander or officer."

"Humvees are exempt" should be changed to "Light vehicles are exempt".

"If a vehicle is to become INOP or unsafe for use it is to be returned to the installiation and may only be redeployed if authorized by an EO." should be changed to "If a vehicle is to become heavily damaged it is to be retreated to a safe position for repairs, before it is redeployed."

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Rank Authority should be changed to "Authority is determined by rank. The highest ranking individual present is the acting authority and holds final decision making power, unless command is explicitly delegated by an individual of higher rank. Department heads have sole authority over their departments and may only be overridden by the acting Commander or Executive Officer."

"XO and CO hold final authority on all department decisions including dismissal of a Department Head if found to be in violations of SOP or health standards." should be changed to "XO and CO hold final authority on all department decisions including dismissal of a Department Head if found to be in violation of SOP or UCMJ."

Remove the paygrades in () from the chain of command.

Fireteam leader needs to be made higher than the corpsman on the bulletpoint list on the chain of command.

Failure to Attend Combative Briefing needs to be changed to "Failing to attend briefing as a combative personnel (i.e. sqaud members, vehicle crew, intel personnel) without a valid reason (waiting in the requisitions line, gearing up after late wake up, etc)"

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Also change all instances of "INOP" to inoperable.

dull lance
dusky moth
dull lance
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you may aswell include the parts where you do not salute indoors or without a cover on

hollow condor
dusky moth
hollow condor
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I just need to save it since I’m not home lol

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Did you look over #1514031680372084826

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No changes in assuming then

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Since it is just alienied GC

solid plinth
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I didn't see anything of note really, seemed fine.

hollow condor
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I think 32 articles each being 1-3 sentences is fine

solid plinth
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Definitely.

quick portal
# dusky moth <:house:1511987293215260712> Okay man agree to disagree i gave my piece

my final comment I have to say is MPs are first and foremost supposed to follow the spirit of the law and maintain cohesion and discipline, MPs who are hunting to issue punishments are not following the spirit of the law and should be ahelped

as well, the only way I could foresee an actual punishment being issued for this is if you are told not to do it and then you do it again out of smug disregard, it's the same as if any military leadership gives you an order as a lower enlisted, you just do it

The point of SOP isn't to keep the unit parade ready either it's to flow smoothly and allow superiors to enforce smooth and orderly flow, keeping people safe and aware in hazardous areas is a part of that and our issues vehicles can be hazardous

hollow condor
quick portal
#

that's true

hollow condor
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Of which is why it says in SOP they aren’t to do sentencing

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Due to that fact

quick portal
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If you feel that military police culture specifically targets your or others I would say open another feedback thread about it because that is not the intention of the military police

I would also say perhaps simply not picking fights with MPs and leadership may help

hollow condor
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And not being a chud

zenith grove
hollow condor
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Synths are only allowed to sentence if there’s if there no other MPs

obtuse hearth
hollow condor
#

It’s in there

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One sec

obtuse hearth
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thats not in the game rn

hollow condor
obtuse hearth
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ANYONE can proccess a arrest according to the current SOP we have

hollow condor
#

Equipment SOP Changes

Standard Issue Equipment

  • The Acting Commander may issue special equipment on a case by case basis, such as special headsets or special weaponry for certain personnel or units as long as it does not violate the UCMJ or a specific ban as stated in SOP

Firearm Handling Regulations

  • Under normal circumstances, weapons may only be fired in the firing range. (Unless for cermonial purposes)
  • If no firing range is available MPs may be asked to designate a temporary safe area for weapons to be discharged.

Synthetic Operations

  • Synthetics are not at any point authorized to weild a firearm, synths may hold firearms in one hand for transport or safety reasons.
  • Synthetics are allowed to carry knives, tools, and other simillar equipment if needed to function in their job at optimal levels.
  • Synthetics may conduct arrests but are not allowed to sentence due to not being able to understand spirit of law. If MP or CMP is available, the Synth may sentence.
  • Synthetics designed for specified tasks shall be expected to conduct those tasks with minimal supervision, if a synthtic is assigned a task outside their defined purpose in their user manual, they shall be supervised by an experinced personnel.
  • Synthetics used in a combat capacity must be monitored 24/7, if remotely monitored if any connection failure is to occur the synthetic shall be declared rogue and marked shoot to kill until a reset is performed fully.
  • Syntethics may be sent to their manufacturer for examination if a represenitive or alike is on or near installiation. If the units user manual says not to allow access by other companies, it must be respected.
  • Synthetics may be dismissed from the current position if ordered by the Department Head of their specialization (General use synthetics may only be dismissed by CO or XO)
  • Synthetics may perform operations alone, but should not be sent off installiation for longer then 10 minutes unsupervised.
hollow condor
#

that’s dumb

hollow condor
obtuse hearth
#

Synthetics may perform operations alone, but should not be sent off installiation for longer then 10 minutes unsupervised
why

hollow condor
#

Since COs do it anyways

obtuse hearth
#

This shouldn’t be a thing, like at all

hollow condor
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no one has stopped them

obtuse hearth
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Even CM13 had that as a rule

hollow condor
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COs will send either both synths or just one to repair comms

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Sometimes they’ll send a fireteam escort

obtuse hearth
#

Yeah synths shouldn’t be allowed to move around all alone, that like goes against Synth law 1 inherently

#

id say just readd the CM13 rule for it
Dont run off alone unless its to get to a safer area, rescue, or gather with a group.

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But it’s not my call, though it would help with Synth players who try to get converted purposely

hollow condor
obtuse hearth
zenith grove
#

I would send a fireteam off as SL with a synth IF there was someone who can lead the ft (near impossible)

dusky moth
# quick portal I see your point but I feel like the situation you are thinking of doesn't reall...

in real life, NSZ are certain parts, painted or with a helmet sign,

why not make certain specific spotso f garages and parking lots NSZ? that would be good right,

Why do we make THE ENTIRE garage a nsz?

Honestly my simple problem is micromangement, specially when its micromanegment in an inherently unrealistic scenario that we should treat as an accepted break from reality for the sake of gameplay, why are we creating hyper specific sops for the sake of realism or roleplay when lets be real here, an unventilated active jet engine blasting 1500 degree exhaust into an enclosed garage or parking lot with marines and other vehicles is enough to kill us all,

instead of just okay lets paint or designate certain areas within garages or parking lots as NSZ its just a select all,

i just feel that simply, this is unnecessary friction, SOP fundementaly is not made for roleplay sake, unless i am mistaken, Its made to deal with OOC rules in an IC manner and taken more seriously with important roles as commands because SOP inherintly is a branch off of server rules

marine laws is not there for my roleplay, its there to keep the round stable and running, To stop marines from disobeying orders and to stop command from being shitters, IC problems with IC solutions, the first line before youre being bwoinked, i just dont get maybe i am mistaken on why we even have SOP perhaps SOP here is just purely there for roleplay sake, where admins just happen to intervene if command breaks from it

quick portal
#

SOP is there for roleplay and round flow

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SOP violations are either fail rp or impediment to round flow

hollow condor
#

@solid plinth doing fixes now should be ready in an hour

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Anything need to be written for specs?

solid plinth
hollow condor
#

Cool

hollow condor
#

@solid plinth changes added

quick portal
#

and same here I implore you to rewrite or modify this but I believe it is in everyone's best interest if position takes a little bit of precedent over rank

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unless you have integrated these things or it was flatly decided they don't matter I dunno

hollow condor
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You get 4 chances before you even get a actual punishment

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so it’s genuinely whatever

quick portal
#

that's true

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yeah I don't care that much

unreal raft
#

peak sopchangees