2SLGBTQIA+ Issues

[manic frigate]

I guess this goes here.. My mom works for a school doing registration, ie: the whole process of getting a kid into the system and ready to join the school.

Heard her talking about situations the system doesn't work for. Like two married women bringing in their child to register, they can only list one as mother and the other as step-mother.

They also have issues with how to add Trans people and different pronouns to the system. Can only use He/She, can only use the sex listed on birth certificate.. etc

[limpid isle]

damn

[autumn spoke]

i know growing up, whenever i had forms for school, it would list it as "parent/guardian 1" and "parent/guardian 2" and have a separate line to fill out their relation to the students

[limpid isle]

This topic was created to discuss issues experienced by the queer and trans community.

Quick Info:
Queer and trans people are often victims of hate crimes, societal discrimination, and stigma.

[trim sedge]

Well formatted, but you can remove This topic was posted on July 6, 2022 5:22 PM by Metra.

in the example post that is just there to show that only factual information can be included in quick info @limpid isle

Thank you for posting!

[manic frigate]

What is the "2s" part? (genuinely have not seen that)

[granite wave]

Two Spirit

[sudden meadow]

Two-spirit is a version I've heard.

[trim sedge]

oh really

[granite wave]

An indigenous gender identity that was suppressed by colonists

as indigenous people are reclaiming much of their heritage and culture the identity is coming back into the light and becoming more known

[trim sedge]

https://lgbtqhealth.ca/community/two-spirit.php

so is it 2S as one thing as in 2 spirit or are 2 and S seperate

[limpid isle]

I know sometimes it's 2S at the beginning

[sudden meadow]

One thing, is the one I've heard.

[limpid isle]

sometimes it's just a 2 at the end

[granite wave]

2S together

[limpid isle]

2SLGB...

or ...IA2+

[granite wave]

and yea I often see it at the end, this is the first time I have seen it at the front

[limpid isle]

but where I live, beginning with 2S is more common

maybe it's a canadian thing?

[trim sedge]

Oh gotcha ok, are plural relationships not in there ?

[manic frigate]

The one in Dylan's link is "LGBTQ2S+" that leaves out the ia part for some reason?

[granite wave]

What are plural relationships?

[trim sedge]

like throuple etc...

[limpid isle]

since we do treat our indigenous peoples more like sovereign nations than you do down in america

[granite wave]

Ah k, I don't think throuple is included in the acronym

[trim sedge]

omg im dumb, I always thought 2+ was like 2 or more people can be in a relationship

i now realize its all the letters + more letters for everything else

[foggy bridge]

The few 2 spirit people I have met don't consider themselves lgbt because to them it is just the norm and the way they are and the way their culture sees them, like they were just born 2 spirit not born and then transitioned. They explained it similar to how many intersex people do not want to be identified as lgbt. I assumed because of that that 2 spirit was a separate thing, and have never seen it in the acronym before now, is it generally considered a part of the community now?

[limpid isle]

I believe so

although we shouldn't assume that they're similar to our western norms of how queer and trans people are

[trim sedge]

Ah ok so it seems to be more of a "we recognize and respect" rather than saying they are lgbt

[oak lotus]

Sorry I just got done with the argument in the other thread

[autumn spoke]

this is usually considered polyamory, abbreviated to polyam

[manic frigate]

The acronym keeps growing every time I seen it. I've even seen one written out like: LGGBDTTIQQ2SAAPP -
(Lesbian, Gay, Genderqueer, Bisexua, Demisexual, Transgender, Transsexual, Intersex, Queer, Questioning, 2 spirit, Asexual, Allies, Pansexual, Polyamorous)

[sudden meadow]

Generally it should just have + at some point because that one doesn't even cover everything.

[oak lotus]

I think it's fairly safe to say that anybody who only includes LGBT or any other example isn't excluding characters out of malice tho

[prisma gyro]

Lets phrase this as debate and not argument. Argument comes off as hostile vs debate which is mutual.

[autumn spoke]

the a's in the acronym usually stand for: agender, aromantic, asexual, and not ally

[oak lotus]

I think you understand what I mean

And I don't think argument is necessarily a bad thing either

[trim sedge]

Yeah I think we kept it relatively civil, which I very much appreciate no matter what we name it

[oak lotus]

Now what was your question specifically @limpid isle ?

[sudden meadow]

Which is why there were two A's, but I agree that ally shouldn't be part of the acronym.

[oak lotus]

Wow I think she asked me that an hour ago too lol

I kind of feel bad

[trim sedge]

Ye time flies when you are having fun i guess, very stimulating debate can do that

[manic frigate]

Yeah I was just quoting a website, which goes on to say that Allies aren't usually included, although appreciated, aren't a sexual orientation and are not included.

[trim sedge]

@limpid isle Do you wanna fire off your question here now that @oak lotus has some time to answer?

[limpid isle]

oh yeah

[oak lotus]

Also I don't really get why asexual is included. Isn't kind of the point of asexual that you don't have any sort of sexuality?

[foggy bridge]

I personally will probably always just stick to lgbt

The rest fall under one of those

Or in my mind are their own thing

[oak lotus]

It's much easier

[limpid isle]

lgbt is fine, I prefer lgbt*

[trim sedge]

Usually in convo i say lgbt and if im doing something academic I write out the generally accepted longer version

[limpid isle]

Do you think it's possible to have 2 defensible sides to a debate regarding, say, the existence a trans person? Should we even be able to debate whether or not a gender non-conforming person should be able to exist the way they do/would like to?

[oak lotus]

I feel like adding too many letters is disingenuous because it makes it either too complicated, too bothersome to type out, etc

Like it makes people want to include themselves in such discussions less

[foggy bridge]

I think there could also be benefit into making more distinct communities

One that you kinda mentioned and I get a lot of shit for is that I think asexuality should be distinct from the lgbt community

[sudden meadow]

There are pros and cons to adding more letters to the combined acronym.

[autumn spoke]

asexuality is defined as a lack in sexual attraction, and often can face discrimination because having sexual attraction is treated as the default, and anything outside of it is considered abnormal

[oak lotus]

I do think there are two sides of that argument. My biggest question is that if you want to be whatever it is you're calling yourself, does it really matter what one specific person that likely doesn't mean anything to you says?

[foggy bridge]

Lgb is about who you are attracted to, asexuality is about IF you are attracted, so I think both communities would benefit from having their own spaces where their unique needs can be met

But I would never try to kick someone out of a space, that's just my personal ideas

[sudden meadow]

Maybe there should be a general community and within that more specific communities?

[arctic walrus]

Isn't that how it is?

[foggy bridge]

Yeah I guess that's kinda what we have right now and it works okay, I don't always feel comfortable when someone tries to relate themselves to me based on issues that I feel are different though.

So it is not ideal to me but it makes sense ig

[trim sedge]

Yeah ok based I guess. At face value I think we should just let everyone do what they want with their identity, but also like why does it matter if some random hick you will never come across in real life hates you.

[oak lotus]

Maybe this is just my impression, but I don't generally think about the LGBT community as one prone to kicking out people they don't accept

[arctic walrus]

I dislike when people try to gatekeep allies

It's hurt me personally because that's a facade I use to maintain the closet and I don't think it's anyone's business to pry that open

[manic frigate]

I feel you'll get into the arguments or baiting questions of "You support abc but not xyz huh?" (purely thinking about all the people who join Kara's stream and immediately ask "Do you support gay people?")

[foggy bridge]

Exactly. I wish we were a bit more keen towards enforcing barriers, I don't like straight people inviting themselves into lgbt spaces and being allowed in because we are "inclusive of everybody". But it is hard to draw the line because some people don't want to out themselves and would rather join as an "ally", and there are always new definitions of what is lgbt that broaden the community and allow even more people in

[oak lotus]

But I feel like a good frame of mind to have is to give somebody the benefit of the doubt when you think they might possibly be intending malice. Better not to get yourself worked up about something unless the intent is clear

Just in general, if you have a positive perception of life, you'll be happier as a result

[limpid isle]

Regarding these ideas, this is what I personally think is okay? Keep in mind I might be wrong.
2SLGBTQIA+/LGBTQIA2+ is a very inclusive term used to refer to the entire community. Generally good when you want to be concise and inclusive, but not good to repeat often.
LGBT* is what I personally use as shorthand for the above. Some people like LGBT or LGBTQ as well.
Queer is a general blanket term for those who are not hetero. This includes LGB, Q, and A.
Trans is a general blanket term for those who are not cis. This sometimes includes demiboy/girl, and non-binary.
Non-Binary is a general blanket term for those who do not fit neatly into the gender binary, although it can get a bit fuzzy. Generally includes demiboy/girl, agender, gender-fluid, and direct non-binary.
Asexual is a general blanket term for those who experience less attraction to others. This includes the entire spectrum and 5 types of attraction(sexual, emotional, romantic, aesthetic, platonic).

[foggy bridge]

Yeah that is what happens lol. "I don't think asexual people are inherently lgbt." "You hate asexual people? You don't believe asexuality is real?" NO I just don't think it's the same thing. So frustrating

[limpid isle]

Those are the ones I could think of on the spot

[foggy bridge]

I also hate the use of queer as a blanket term. So many people like me have so much trauma surrounding that word and to be told it is the most inclusive term hurts lol. Especially being told that BY STRAIGHT PEOPLE that makes me lose my mind lol

[arctic walrus]

As a chemist the modern interpretation of the term "trans" gets on my nerves because of the latin root

[autumn spoke]

queer is also often used to refer to gender identity (as in genderqueer), and i use that term to describe myself irl to maintain a partial closet

[arctic walrus]

I know it's irrational but I try to deal

[oak lotus]

That's one thing I hate with everything. If you don't love something or agree with some specific idea or concept, some people will immediately then accuse you of hating it

It'll apply to virtually everything it seems

[trim sedge]

Just learned the Non-Binary ~ Trans thing myself actually. My older sibling is NB and I had no idea it counted as Trans identity until they referred to themselves as trans just like my younger brother.

[oak lotus]

People that deal in extremes = 🚩

[arctic walrus]

Technically it doesn't because the term trans directly implies a binary

[limpid isle]

I wouldn't know, what would be better?

[trim sedge]

at least we can find common ground in not appreciating extremists

[foggy bridge]

I personally just say lgbt "I am an lgbt person" or gay if it is in reference to attraction and not gender

[limpid isle]

I think of it as a bunch of umbrella terms.
LGBT*----------------------------------------------------
Trans----------------------------------------------
Non-Binary---------------------------------
Various non-binary identities

[foggy bridge]

And if it is in reference to gender trans but I am not trans so I don't really have any right to decide there

[oak lotus]

I feel like I hear gay used as a blanket term far more often than queer, even if that's technically not what it means

[limpid isle]

alright, I'll keep it in mind

[devout wharf]

Some people react that way because the first step to excluding people is finding something to say "they're not truly one of us though", and personally I've had too many people close to me use statements like that as a way to test the water about being a bigot, akin to the "racist joke -> oh I was just joking bro" 'act'

[limpid isle]

yeah, gay tends to mean many non-het sexualities, but not all(ace spectrum, for one)

[arctic walrus]

Gay is an antiquated term, it should be brought back to the original meaning of gay ||happy||

[limpid isle]

bigotry tends to start out small like that, or under the pretense of something "okay", like protecting women from trans people, and eventually grows into something much worse

[limpid isle]

Fun fact: straight used to be the opposite of gay, being sad

[trim sedge]

true now its square instead of straight

[arctic walrus]

So what you're saying is that almost all millenials and zoomers are straight

[limpid isle]

yes

wait

[trim sedge]

I aint no 🟪

[autumn spoke]

well us zoomers are considered the "gayest" generation thus far, so i don't know what to believe

[devout wharf]

I used to play games with a group of people who basically did exactly that kind of thing, making bigoted jokes about a lot of things that were a bit personal, and that's definitely made me way oversensitive about jokes like that kind of stuff, because most of the people in my life are that way, including some family.

[oak lotus]

Idk I personally feel like terms like bigotry or racism are overused to the point that it's disingenuous and drowns out actual racism

[arctic walrus]

It was a depression joke

Unless you realized that, then my bad for ruining the joke

[autumn spoke]

i always forget the slash jay

[limpid isle]

Bigotry, racism, and other forms of discrimination can take all kinds of forms though.

[oak lotus]

Yeah but it can also be pretty subjective too

[limpid isle]

You're right

[oak lotus]

A lot of people might see something as racist that a lot of people don't

[arctic walrus]

Gender theory is amusing to me. I like to mess with people who try to shove people into definitive boxes by saying I'm cis and identify as cis and for them to try to determine what my gender is.

But the reality is

[sudden meadow]

Is it subjective though? Opinions about cases may be, but that may not change whether or not it is discrimination in some form.

[oak lotus]

I also feel like most instances of people saying racist things are just them trying to be edgy and make people upset because racism is perhaps the thing that people hate most

Like they don't actually believe the things they're saying

[limpid isle]

I think it feels subjective since what may be offensive to one party, may not feel offensive to another

It's still discrimination, but it's been normalized

[oak lotus]

A lot of jokes are like that

[arctic walrus]

It's a form of self-depreciative humor.

They see racism as bad and their joke makes them look bad and therefore the butt of the joke

eg. George Carlin and Dave Chapelle

[devout wharf]

If it was that simple, you'd think people'd quit it when they're outright told that it's a personal attack to someone they're talking to, but (in my experience) people just double down on it.

[oak lotus]

Kind of like how in schools everybody would draw swastikas on the walls and bathrooms

[trim sedge]

I agree that sometimes its hard to draw a line between people who are to their core bigoted and people who are bigoted cos they think its funny. In my mind its still spreading hate and bigotry no matter the context though which is not good for healthy discourse and community.

[devout wharf]

Or the dial up the racist jokes to 11

[trim sedge]

oh god dont bring me back to middle - high school like that I did not draw them i just remember seeing them

[oak lotus]

Nah because you're feeding that urge for them to stir emotions and make people upset

[arctic walrus]

You can tell the real racists and the fake ones because the fake ones would draw them wrong

[oak lotus]

They're trying to evoke a reaction

[foggy bridge]

I don't think that works because then people that are legitimately racist or whatever are laughing at the joke because they think it's funny, not because they think that it's funny that that dude is making himself look dumb. They're just spreading that message even if that isn't their "intention"

[devout wharf]

For me it's a real simple line to draw. If they cut it out when they're told it's not funny to make Muslim jokes at a Muslim, then they're just "trying to be funny". If they keep it up they're just pretending to do it because it's funny and "just a joke".

[devout wharf]

Got it, so it's my fault that people're discriminatory towards me and it annoys me. Cool.

[oak lotus]

Also comedy is supposed to be edgy and uncomfortable to some extent

[devout wharf]

Heard that one before.

[arctic walrus]

Same. My humor theory is that it needs to be obvious that it's a joke. The audience needs to be able to tell it's not sincere.

[oak lotus]

That's not what I'm saying

But they succeeded at what they were trying to accomplish

[sudden meadow]

It doesn't need to be.

[oak lotus]

Well if it's completely safe and what you might consider socially acceptable, it ceases to be funny

A large part of comedy is taking people by surprise

[trim sedge]

The element of....

SURPRISE

[oak lotus]

Being safe completely takes that element away

[devout wharf]

That's just Shock Comedy, which can still be done in a way where it's not completely fucked things to say though.

[autumn spoke]

i often make edgy, self deprecating jokes, such as "i would say i'm not homophobic, but i hate myself" and "all the problems in my life were cause by a gay person (me)", there are definitely ways to make jokes about lgbt people or topics without it being lgbt-phobic

[sudden meadow]

Surprise isn't necessary for comedy.

[devout wharf]

Some jokes definitely would fall flat if you remove the "edge", but imo that's more of a comment that it's not funny to begin with.

Or the rule of thumb that I give for humour, if you need to say it's a joke (or describe the punch line), it wasn't funny.

[oak lotus]

Not necessary, but without it, you're restricted to what you can really do

[devout wharf]

(or it has a very niche crowd when it comes to history jokes and the sort)

[trim sedge]

I think you can be funny by being "surprising and edgy" and you can also just be funny. It is a lot easier to be edgy funny than being just regular funny.

[oak lotus]

But regardless if you think it's funny or not, there's enough of an audience that thinks it is that it'll thrive nonetheless

[sudden meadow]

Take 'dad jokes' for example. A lot of the time you can see the joke coming from a mile away, but it can still be funny.

[devout wharf]

"surprising and edgy" I'd say just definitely requires it to be surprisingly and edgy and (like @arctic walrus said, clear enough that it's not sincere)

[oak lotus]

Usually it's funny because it's so cringe tho

Which is in a way surprising, because you expect jokes to at least not be so awful

[arctic walrus]

Yeah, like Dave Chapelle's black KKK member skit

[devout wharf]

Cause a lot of thsoe that I've experienced really just end up being "[Racist/sexist/homophobic thing]" -silence from me and the people with us- "It's just a joke"

[oak lotus]

Well I've got to eat dinner now so imma head out

[arctic walrus]

It's such a good joke because Amy Schumer couldn't steal it

[trim sedge]

Thank you for participating, I very much appreciated your POV

enjoy your meal

[devout wharf]

To be fair, I think a lot of my joke issues stem from being in a group of people who were all borderline alt-right and not wanting to correct them about their perception of what my views and beliefs are since they were my only friends at the time.

[oak lotus]

Yeah I get the feeling there won't be all too many opposing perspectives throughout the more political debates

[arctic walrus]

laughs in being hated by everyone politically

[oak lotus]

So like any conservative on a college campus 🙃

[autumn spoke]

love every aspect of my being being politicized

[oak lotus]

Sorry I couldn't help myself

[trim sedge]

Help yourself to some dinner lol

[devout wharf]

Or like anyone who's not a neo-nazi playing history video games apparently. Paradox Interactive really isn't good at the whole "our audience is a bunch of hitler apologists and Islamophobes, we condemn it but won't do shit to stop the reasons why they're attracted here"

[granite wave]

https://twitter.com/KnowNothingTV/status/1546241407446294528?t=1XrwPy6KN-9CR7-Y3TMiwg&s=09

KnowNothing (@KnowNothingTV)

a story in four tweets

Likes

38960

Retweets

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Twitter · Jul 10, 2022, 9:14 PM

[limpid isle]

[tiny rover]

jk rowling/neg

[limpid isle]

jk trolling

[tiny rover]

jk rat

f-ing”protecting biological sex but i will stand by my trans sisters”

[kindred sail]

Message: jk rowling/neg

Tones: Negative Connotation```

[tiny rover]

omg tone decoder

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