Roe V Wade

[carmine cargo]

i'm so tired of seeing these stories of women being forced to carry unviable fetuses because of this bs ban

[quartz tapir]

Which ban?

[fleet lodge]

Based on context possibly the abortion ban

[quartz tapir]

Which one? There's tons of state ones.

Each with differing criteria

Found one story of a Texas woman being forced to carry a non-viable fetus for 2 weeks longer than it should have been because of requiring three checks to make sure it wasn't viable, and another from Louisiana

[carmine cargo]

There was another woman who has a baby with no skull forming and she’s forced to carry it

Or is she the one from Louisiana?

[quartz tapir]

Yeah, that was the Louisiana one I saw

Those two were both pretty messed up. The only story I was familiar with was the Ohio girl going to Indiana

[vivid terrace]

gg Supreme Court

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2022/09/01/positive-views-of-supreme-court-decline-sharply-following-abortion-ruling/

[carmine cargo]

https://twitter.com/AliceOllstein/status/1569494296998383618?s=20&t=7nSz1tYOtYJI7aU3qPbVEQ

[dim oracle]

This topic was created in order to discuss Roe V Wade and the recent Supreme Court decision to reverse it.

Quick Info:
Wade, 410 U.S. 113 (1973), was a landmark decision of the U.S. Supreme Court in which the Court ruled that the Constitution of the United States generally protects the liberty to choose to have an abortion.

On June 24, 2022, the Supreme Court overruled Roe in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization on the grounds the right to abortion was not "deeply rooted in this Nation's history or tradition", it was not considered a right when the Due Process Clause was ratified in 1868, and was unknown in U.S. law until Roe.

Links:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/410/113
https://www.npr.org/2022/06/24/1102305878/supreme-court-abortion-roe-v-wade-decision-overturn
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/21pdf/19-1392_6j37.pdf

[earnest jacinth]

I hate knowing that the lives of women are being dictated by 6 people who can’t be gotten out of office

[dim oracle]

At least Judge Brown is being sworn in soon, we got one person on the good side for sure now

[torpid hearth]

This affects more than just abortion/reproductive autonomy, right? I'm hearing a lot about how this will affect contraception, sodomy, queer marriages, trans rights, etc. Not sure though.

[earnest jacinth]

wait who was the last one who died then?

[earnest jacinth]

yeah it affects soooo much more

[balmy wing]

rbg last one that died, breyer just retired.

[earnest jacinth]

like it was an intregral (??) case in privacy laws

damn they can retire?

[balmy wing]

Ya lol

I don't understand why they can be on the court until they are dead

That is just plain stupid

[torpid hearth]

What if they were cool when we appointed them, but not anymore?

There's a reason why the prime minister changes every 4 years

[fleet lodge]

Well, multiple were "cool" when we appointed to them. From my understanding, many of the justices who are sworn in now vowed to not overturn Roe and here we are now :(

[balmy wing]

Yeah three of them (appointed by Trump) literally lied under oath

[fleet lodge]

yeah was about to mention that

[fervent charm]

the phrase 'lifetime appointment' is terrifying. The fact that these people hold so much power and can interpret a 200 year old document however they feel.......c'mon now that makes no sense

[dim oracle]

None of the justices died but Justice Stephen Breyer is retiring

[balmy wing]

Rbg died right before the 2020 election, and that's when Amy Coney Barrett was sworn in forcefully

[dim oracle]

oh god, that square peg round hole

[fervent charm]

Scalia died during the Obama administration but the GOP shutdown his appointee

[feral spire]

This needs the very important context that a seat became vacant WELL before the 2016 election, and McConnell through a massive fit over the idea of Obama getting the appointee

But strangely that standard was removed when the roles were reversed.

[balmy wing]

8 months before the 2016 election, Obama nominated Merrick Garland to the court. The republican senators voted no, with the senate being obviously more republican favored at the time. And then when ACB is thrown in, they forget about that 2016 nomination and vote her in anyways...

[dim oracle]

also most of the people that wrote it owned people, like literally owned human beings. Why is what they wrote so important exactly??

[balmy wing]

When people use the constitution as a scapegoat to hate on lgbtq+ rights, women rights, black rights, etc, it's fucking disgusting

"It's not in the consitution", well yeah no one also wear pantaloons and white powdered wigs anymore, Gertrude.

[dim oracle]

Yeah and we have "instantly destroy all of humanity" buttons now, its a very different time than 1786

[quartz tapir]

Because they aspired towards an ideal of fairness even if they didn't abide by it to our understanding today.

[fleet lodge]

automatic rifles weren't included in the right to bear arms either so I hope those "it's not in the constitution" nerds like their muskets

[quartz tapir]

You can't just ignore an entire movement because it's inconvenient

[balmy wing]

That's like a murderer saying "don't murder people" to a public group of people... that ideology makes 0 sense

[quartz tapir]

That makes no sense

[mystic blaze]

Well if there were limits on how often you could serve on the court, you'd have a lot more nominations per presidency, which would form more ideological courts with clear political bias

[quartz tapir]

At the time civilians had more advanced arms than the government such as repeating rifles

[mystic blaze]

The point is for most of the court to be already established so one President is very unlikely to nominate most of the justices on the bench

At least that's how I interpret it

[balmy wing]

I'm sorry I don't want someone who's on their death bed to be making decisions if I can have gay intercourse or not

[mystic blaze]

Well they can retire early

[dim oracle]

I agree that there needs to be a system so that it cant be manipulated in the short term of a presidency but also maybe at this point we need a way to easily remove someone from the court with popular vote or something

cos lifetime is not a good solution

[mystic blaze]

But they're supposed to be ruling based on interpretation of the Constitution, not their own personal opinions

[balmy wing]

Also, you act like all the supreme court justices are the same age. Not all of them are gonna retire under the same presidency.

[dim oracle]

that just means every 80 years or so the president at the time decides the 80 years upcoming

[balmy wing]

So if it's "not in the constitution" (which the constitution was made by racist slave owners), it's automatically a no vote. That's stupid.

[dim oracle]

I mean that obviously is not what is happening right now

[quartz tapir]

So we should invalidate the declaration of the rights of man because the authors were sexist

[fleet lodge]

I was just joking poking holes in the arguments at those who try to negate the rights of others just because they weren't detailed in the constitution. My point is that if they want to abide by the original intention of the constitution then we must revert back to 1787. Regardless, the weapons were much more inferior to the guns of today.

[mystic blaze]

Whether or not you like the Constitution is irrelevant. The Constitution was made be the underlying structure of the nation. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land

Completely making the Constitution null and void is to create a new country entirely

[dim oracle]

I do agree that the line needs to be drawn somewhere, we cant just call it quits and have a redo. But also it was never supposed to just stay the same for hundreds of years, the document was meant to evolve constantly.

[mystic blaze]

They still had cannons, puckle guns, and a lot of different guns that could shoot more than one bullet at a time

[balmy wing]

That’s literally the point. Why would u wanna live in a country where school shootings and police brutality happen. I guess that’s ok since it’s not in the constitution, right?

[balmy wing]

Yeah it was supposed to but the last time it was updated was in the 70’s. It does not reflect Americans at all today.

[fleet lodge]

Again, was just a joke and there is no need to get stuck on the incredibly unimportant detail of what exact weapon was used during that time. :) Picking the wrong thing to focus on guys

[mystic blaze]

Well the US gets 3x as many legal immigrants annually as the next highest country so we must be doing something right

[waxen kindle]

Advertising.

[dim oracle]

True America is a melting pot down to its core, I think sadly a lot of those people are disenfranchised though based on wealth, race, gender, etc...

[mystic blaze]

Is this referring the the Constitution in general or the SCOTUS, cuz popular opinion has no effect on Supreme Court decisions

[dim oracle]

constitution i believe

[quartz tapir]

The legal argument was that despite there being a right to privacy the state has no obligation to allow the service. Abortion rights could have been amended into the bill of rights but it never was.

[balmy wing]

The constitution.

[dim oracle]

So would you say that other things founded on a right to privacy also should go to the states?

[balmy wing]

Why are people so mad at abortion rights not being into the bill of rights, and not mad at the supreme court for overturning a woman’s right to choose what she does with her uterus. I agree it should’ve been made a law, but why does the supreme court get a pass. Just cause it’s not “in the constitution” that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be a right.

[quartz tapir]

No because there's supreme court precedence admitting the 10th amendment extends to provacy

[torpid hearth]

When talking about abortion rights, don't just talk about women

Men and non-binary people can be pregnant, and require abortions too

[mystic blaze]

Well what about the rights of the unborn baby to not be murdered

[quartz tapir]

Even in Roe they never went as far as to say abortion was a right.

[fleet lodge]

What happened to separation of church and state?

[dim oracle]

Is that in the constitution?

[balmy wing]

My bad! Any gender with a uterus, is what I meant. I did not mean any disrespect!

[torpid hearth]

:)

[mystic blaze]

Are you saying US Citizens don't also have a right to not be murdered?

[balmy wing]

No literally because them overturning a precedent which BTW they said they wouldnt overturn and DID, is literally forcing their religious beliefs onto us.

[waxen kindle]

Are the unborn citizens?

[fleet lodge]

Are you saying the parent doesn't have a right to not possibly be murdered by the zygote?

[dim oracle]

Do fetuses get citizenship before they come out of the womb?

[torpid hearth]

I got 2 things to say to that

[steep aspen]

Last I checked you got citizenship based on where you were born. Not where you were conceived

[mystic blaze]

Separation of Church and State was about the State interfering in religious practices thru the 1st amendment. That's not to say your religion can't influence a congressman's opinions

[quartz tapir]

Secularism is irrelevant to the legal argument. I dislike Justice Thomas on those grounds but they do have a point that the judicial branch should not be creating laws via decisions.

[dim oracle]

I would also like to say thank you to everyone for being respectful of everyone's POV so far, you don't have to agree, but this is a great discussion so far!

[mystic blaze]

Murder is intentional and premeditated. A zygote can't "murder" a pregnant mother

[quartz tapir]

It's up to the legislative branch to concur with the legal decisions and codify law

[balmy wing]

Hey is your birthday the day you were born or conceived? Please enlighten me.

[mystic blaze]

It's kinda in the name

"Birth" day

[torpid hearth]

1. If we cared about the children, then we should have better child care, mat/paternal leave, etc. Abortion should be an option that few have to consider, rather than one that some must consider at their own expense.
2. Restricting abortion is about control, not the babies, from what I can see. See the first point. Restricting abortions, and reproductive autonomy in general allows for the state to control women, thus allowing for more births, children for the state.

[fleet lodge]

Also, US citizens are murdered daily due to rampant gun violence. Don't you think that crisis might need a bit more oversight than a person with a uterus unwanting to bring a baby into this world where it might be murdered among it's peers in a learning facility?

[dim oracle]

What about the different degrees of murder? What about manslaughter? murder does not always have to be intentional or with malice.

[steep aspen]

So you don’t get citizenship until you are born

[balmy wing]

But shouldn’t we be celebrating “conception day” if that’s when life starts?

[torpid hearth]

👍

[balmy wing]

Quickly!!!!

[mystic blaze]

We do have maternal leave to a large extent, it just isn't required for an employer to provide it

[quartz tapir]

Also for the record, Europe has strict abortion laws and limits the procedure to 12 weeks in most cases

[mystic blaze]

I mean manslaughter isn't murder by definition

[dim oracle]

wouldnt that mean we dont have it, some people choose to have it

[torpid hearth]

And what about paternal leave?

[dim oracle]

Hey we will take 12 weeks at this point

[mystic blaze]

Conception day can be impossible to define in many circumstances. It's pretty clear when somebody is being born

[quartz tapir]

Most US states still allow up to 20 weeks even my own

[torpid hearth]

I want people to remember that it's not just about the legality, if abortions are legal or not. It's also about other factors of access. It doesn't matter how legal an abortion is if somebody has to take time off from an important job, fly halfway across the state/province, and pay an arm and a leg to get one. Abortions are legal in Canada, and it doesn't look like that'll change soon, but it's not perfect up here.

[quartz tapir]

What everyone should be doing here is contacting your state legislators to codify abortion rights on the state level asap

[balmy wing]

Yeah it’s unfortunate people have to fly miles away just for their god given human rights.

[mystic blaze]

You're also assuming we all are on the same side of this argument

[steep aspen]

At the end of the day, if comes down to me or a clump of cells I have already picked out a name for. I’m picking me.

[steep aspen]

No one is assuming that

[quartz tapir]

The decision has no bearing on a state level decision permitting abortion

[dim oracle]

I mean personally I am Jewish so I believe if a uterus owner is at risk, unless the baby can survive outside the womb, its got to go in order to safe a life.

[earnest jacinth]

Literally have abortion be legal and if you don’t want it don’t fucking get it

[mystic blaze]

Responding to @quartz tapir

[quartz tapir]

I'll concede my phrasing was poor

[steep aspen]

I think with context, they are implying the people who are pro choice

[quartz tapir]

Yeah

[balmy wing]

Literally all republicans have is quoting some paper written by slave owners in the 1700’s and be like “but thats not whats on the constitution!!!!!”

And then wanna control women’s bodies

[dim oracle]

At the very least decriminalize it, cos no one should be in prison just because they decided it wasn't the right time for them to raise a child

[woeful meteor]

There's an interesting article that all the people saying "It's not in the constitution" being a reason to remove it.. They all forget that when the Constitution was made, there were NO women judges.. There were NO women legislators. At the time women could neither hold nor run for office..

Fifty-five men in 1787 sat down and wrote four thousand words on a document.. There is nothing in that document about women at all besides the generic "We the people" that the 55 men wrote.

Even the Declaration of Independence is all "He has.. He was.. He is.." not even "they" or "the person" or whatever..

[quartz tapir]

Plenty of people here are concerned that the federal decision puts their health at risk when there's only like 4 states that do

[earnest jacinth]

TRUEING

[mystic blaze]

The job of the SCOTUS is to rule according to an interpretation of the Constitution. Personal feelings or the feelings of the people have no impact on this if they're doing their jobs right

[quartz tapir]

So I'm advocating damage control

[earnest jacinth]

And if you want abortion to be illegal, then at least have contraceptives available and free for those who need it and sex education

[torpid hearth]

One thing I don't get it why there are so many people blaming christians for this. Like, christianity's cool and all, I don't think it's just them. It's absolving the blame on the state legislators who are attempting to control actual human beings because they were simply "following their religion".

[balmy wing]

………….

[dim oracle]

I think what a good amount of people feel now is that they are not doing their job properly

[torpid hearth]

That's getting attacked too. I don't think it's about saving lives.

[mystic blaze]

And what's their legal argument for that?

[balmy wing]

You still have yet to answer, if it’s not in the constitution, it shouldn’t be a right?

[woeful meteor]

I find it absolutely nuts that some states are even like "It's illegal to leave our state to go somewhere else for an abortion..."

[earnest jacinth]

Im p sure it’s literally just abt controlling things that aren’t their own concern (they being pro life)

[earnest jacinth]

Wtf really???

[quartz tapir]

They consider zygotes to be alive so yes they really do believe they're saving lives. Whether or not you agree is a different matter.

[torpid hearth]

wait, wrong picture.

[balmy wing]

It’s not pro life to control a women’s body and harm her in the midst of an unsafe abortion.

[dim oracle]

Have you seen the new legislature issue they may release an opinion on, completely eroding our democratic election process. I feel like the constitution is pretty frank about that one.

[mystic blaze]

Rights have been interpreted based on the syntax of the Constitution like the right to privacy. I don't see how a right to an abortion comes from the Constitution

[vital leaf]

It was in an amendment

[torpid hearth]

So if it's not in the Constitution, does that mean it shouldn't be a right? Can we not amend it?

[vital leaf]

which is part of the constitution

[mystic blaze]

Would you care to enumerate?

[woeful meteor]

@earnest jacinth "The proposals vary from outright criminalization of abortion to measures that make getting an abortion nominally legal but practically impossible. Some states are exploring measures that would make it illegal for residents to travel to a state in which abortion is legal to have the procedure. "

[vital leaf]

that interpretation of that right to privacy is what protected people the right to seek an abortion

[dim oracle]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/06/30/supreme-court-federal-elections-state-legislatures/

[mystic blaze]

The pro life position is that it specifically isn't a woman's body, it's the body of a distinct human being

[balmy wing]

Interpretation is literally opinion and that’s stupid for 9 people to judge on 300 million lives. And opinion is basically them using their religion to interpret abortion, etc.

[quartz tapir]

The Texas law should be overturned based on the 10th amendment, yes

[balmy wing]

A woman makes a fucking human being, it’s literally in her fucking body. That takes makes me upset.

So yes, it is her body.

[mystic blaze]

In her body doesn't mean part of her body

[torpid hearth]

Same as anybody else who needs an abortion

Inclusivity :)

[steep aspen]

Can it survive outside of the womb by itself?

[vital leaf]

she is literally the one fucking feeding the thing, so it affects her body

[steep aspen]

No? Then it’s a parasite.

[torpid hearth]

Their*

[vital leaf]

oh yeah true

their body*

[dim oracle]

So the reproductive organs are only part of a uterus owners body if a fetus is not inside them, I dont understand what you are saying here??

[torpid hearth]

Remember, women aren't the only people able to become pregnant.

[balmy wing]

I hope pro-lifers have the same energy for animal and plant children too!

[steep aspen]

We love someone being inclusive

[vital leaf]

yeah brain slipped for a second

[torpid hearth]

No prob

[steep aspen]

Hope pro lifers stop wearing animal skins and start banning the death penalty etc etc

[quartz tapir]

No country afaik allows 3rd trimester abortion outside of extenuating circumstances yet it's a firm belief in the US

[steep aspen]

Since life is so sacred

[mystic blaze]

You can't say for sure in every specific instance. I've heard plenty before "they never expected me to make it", yet they're a healthy adult with their whole lives ahead of them. Babies born as early as 22 weeks have survived before, who's to say a particular fetus can't be the next miracle

[balmy wing]

Stop pretending like you care about children when you don’t wanna regulate guns.

[steep aspen]

That’s not what I said tho is it? I asked if it can survive outside of the womb by itself. No it cannot.

[woeful meteor]

There are literally studies in other countries that show that babies are more like a parasite until birth than anything else.. Literally avoiding rejection and exerting considerable influence over the mother's metabolism for it's own benefit, diverting blood and nutrients, etc.. Of course nobody would actually consider a baby a parasite, but it's true.

[mystic blaze]

And there's the strawman

[quartz tapir]

We should regulate pools then

[vital leaf]

pretty sure they are regulated

[balmy wing]

Pools dont nearly kill as many people as guns? That’s a stupid analogy.

[torpid hearth]

But we don't know their views on gun control

[quartz tapir]

uh

[steep aspen]

AFAIK, you have to have a fence around a pool. So

[mystic blaze]

Depending on how far they are through development, some most certainly can and actually do more often than not at one point

[balmy wing]

It’s pretty obvious… they also commented before about it.

[torpid hearth]

Did they? I must have missed that

[steep aspen]

Can it survive in my womb when it is one week old?

[woeful meteor]

They would use the constitution to say the second amendment says "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." therefore not limit guns..

[balmy wing]

I like how he’s dodging your question.

[steep aspen]

Out of my womb*

Not in

[mystic blaze]

Reproductive tissue is part of the mother's body. The fetal tissue that has its own distinct set of DNA is not part of the mother's body

[steep aspen]

Ok but like the parents genetics made that tissue. So technically we all belong to our parents bodies and they belong to their parents bodies and so on and so forth

[balmy wing]

Do u care more about a clump of cells than guns killing childrens in school?

[dim oracle]

Very true, umbilical cords literally pull nutrients from the host. Cravings during pregnancy a lot of the time are because your baby needs certain elements of nutrients and the host then feels the insatiable need to provide that. If the host dies from malnutrition, guess who dies first, the fetus that can no longer pull nutrients from the host.

[torpid hearth]

And what about parents that are abusive, can't afford to take care of children, or other circumstances that would be detrimental for the child?

[mystic blaze]

Pools also don't save millions of lives annually tbf

[torpid hearth]

explain

[vital leaf]

theyre literally used for therapy

so maybe not millions but they help people

[dim oracle]

Water based therapy is actually super popular for elderly folks and arthritis havers

[mystic blaze]

You didn't specify one week old, so I responded to the general argument

[quartz tapir]

"On average, there were 397 reported pool-or-spa-related fatal drownings per year for 2016 through 2018, involving children younger than 15 years of age"
https://www.cpsc.gov/Newsroom/News-Releases/2021/CPSC-Report-Shows-Child-Drownings-Remain-High-Most-Fatalities-to-Children-Under-Five

"Mass Shootings: 320"
https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/

[dim oracle]

REGULATE POOLS TODAY!

[mystic blaze]

Anywhere from 1.5 to 3 million defensive firearm uses each year in just the US depending on what study you use

[steep aspen]

I’ll be super specific can it survive without me in the first weeks? If not then it’s a parasite dawg

[torpid hearth]

Actually, I've heard of a good point somewhere.
Regulating guns - it'll never work
Regulating abortions - kill everybody that was related to an abortion

[torpid hearth]

Could you give me some examples, please?

[woeful meteor]

Pools are regulated by the state already.. many have something similar with enclosure requirements exterior fencing, interior barriers etc

[quartz tapir]

https://www.wral.com/woman-credited-with-stopping-mass-shooting-at-apartment-complex-in-west-virginia/20306891/

[mystic blaze]

These "parasitic" elements are how the baby develops in the first place. If we deem them parasites and exterminate them as we do ticks, we'll be extinct in no time

[balmy wing]

83% of people that died in pools were five or below… there’s a difference between parents not watching their children and people going to school innocently and getting shot for no reason.

[steep aspen]

But if I consent to having a baby, then cool beans. But if I don’t, it’s a parasite.

Some people use leaches for blood letting. But leaches are parasites. They aren’t for me

[torpid hearth]

But wouldn't preventing the shooter from obtaining a gun in the first place solve that problem too?

[mystic blaze]

And theoretically, 100% of shootings aren't committed by the gun firing itself

[quartz tapir]

A kid is way more likely to drown in a backyard pool than to die in a school shooting. That mass shooting statistic is for all shootings not just school ones. But I digress that's about gun control not abortion. We should move this over if we're going to continue.

[mystic blaze]

The baby isn't trying to kill you, it's trying to survive

[vital leaf]

Lemme pull something out that happened recently:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/07/02/10-year-old-ohio-indiana-abortion-roe/7795409001/

[steep aspen]

And so am I home dog

Should I die to let it live

[torpid hearth]

What if .-. we talk about guns... in the #994322126658093076 thread

[waxen kindle]

Just like other parasites.

[vital leaf]

would you say no to an abortion if it's a kid super fucking young?

[woeful meteor]

I guarantee if a baby grew inside a male and he had to piss it out, there would be all kinds of laws on the books..

[quartz tapir]

lmao, wtf. Indiana is more conservative than Ohio too.

[balmy wing]

^^^ @mystic blaze

[dim oracle]

Just a reminder if you would like to discuss Gun violence and gun rights you can do so in
https://discord.com/channels/140247578242580481/994322126658093076

Definitely ok to discuss stuff in a similar vein to Roe V Wade here but we are aiming to keep topics neat and easy to follow for new users.

[woeful meteor]

Parasite: "an organism that lives in or on an organism of another species (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the other's expense."

[mystic blaze]

It's doing what it was designed to do as defined in its genetic makeup. You can't fault the baby for that

[woeful meteor]

#994322126658093076

[quartz tapir]

This parasite argument is stupid because by that logic we should abort every fetus

[steep aspen]

Should an 11 yo be able to get an abortion?

[quartz tapir]

Not that I find that to be a problem, it would solve all of the world's problems.

[steep aspen]

If someone consents to being pregnant, that’s fine. If someone does not, it is parasitic.

[waxen kindle]

Then you can't fault a parasite for doing its thing? Because it's practically identical.

[vital leaf]

here's another situaion:
if the parent finds out their kid may have birth defects or other things that could be wrong, should they still have the baby if they are unequipped to have that? and then also have that child suffer through foster care where they may get neglected even more?

[mystic blaze]

Oh but I thought men could get pregnant too, no?

[fleet lodge]

Regardless of your views and regardless of your political standing abortion is a hard choice. It is not only hard on the mind but it is also hard on the body. There are so many different reasons why you should or shouldn't abort a fetus. Ultimately, the decisions of many is not your decision to make. It is up to the parents involved in the conception of the fetus to determine whether or not they should abort. If you don't want your partner to have an abortion then that is your choice. You can't punish everyone else because of your views though. Abortion is health care. Criminalizing abortion doesn't end abortion. It ends safe abortions. We will be back to the coat hanger. How many deaths of both birth giver and child due to failed attempted self abortion will it take to reinstate safe abortion practices? We already have a pretty significant maternal death rate in the states, why increase it by taking away a right to health care? Don't you see how this might cause a problem?

Here is how we stack against other countries for our maternal death rates. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1240400/maternal-mortality-rates-worldwide-by-country/
Here is the CDC's calculations of the US death rates between 2018 - 2020 https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/maternal-mortality/2020/maternal-mortality-rates-2020.htm

[torpid hearth]

Quick note, aren't all parasites genetically told to... you know, parasitise their hosts?

[vital leaf]

cis male if you want to be caught up on semantics

you knew exactly what he was referrng about

[steep aspen]

I certainly hope you are talking about people with uteruses and intersex or trans people.

[dim oracle]

I mean depends on what gender the uterus owner feels most comfortable as. Cant say we need to keep fetuses safe and comfortable then take that away when they are born.

[mystic blaze]

If you consent to sex, you consent to the risk of pregnancy. It's sort of a package deal unless you've had a vasectomy or your uterus removed

[steep aspen]

If you consent to sex then you consent to stds then

[woeful meteor]

Didn't mean to turn it into semantics.. I was referring to cis male like the 55 people who wrote the constitution.

[torpid hearth]

Yes, but that doesn't mean they should be forced to bring the pregnancy to term

Sex isn't JUST for conception

[steep aspen]

Also lmao I’d like you to jump the hoops of seeing how hard it is to get a uterus sterilized

[vital leaf]

yeah i understood completely, they just twisted it in a way to try and counter but failed to make it seem like they understood what you were saying

[dim oracle]

So what if you consent to sex, then revoke consent midway through but they still get you pregnant because they kept going. Are we allowed to abort those ones, because they revoked consent before insemination.

[steep aspen]

“What if you change your mind” “what does your husband think”

[fleet lodge]

People don't just have sex to conceive children my good sir.

[torpid hearth]

What about rape?

[mystic blaze]

The parasite also isn't human and will never become human. Parasites harm other species by design. The baby is just trying to grow so it can become an adult human and live a full life like the rest of us

[torpid hearth]

I'd agree to that

[balmy wing]

I have sex because i trust them and it’s a form of love, that doesn’t mean i want a child.

[steep aspen]

Should an 11 year old be forced to carry to term?

[dim oracle]

also very true, I have a 23 year old friend who was just blatantly turned down by a doctor because "what if you change your mind when you are older". A lot of the time uterus owners aren't given the legitimate option to be sterilized.

[vital leaf]

heres the thing: if the person didn't consent to having a baby, it is straight up a parasite. it us up to them whether or not they want to keep the child because they know how they stand about becoming a parent

[woeful meteor]

It literally fits the definition of a parasite. Don't sit there saying a human can't be a parasite because a parasite is a parasite.

[mystic blaze]

Personally I think people with down syndrome are some of the happiest people you'll ever meet. I don't think someone deserves to die simply because they aren't what the rest of us would define as "normal"

[balmy wing]

No one is saying that

[torpid hearth]

Reasons why people have sex:

• Not your business
• No seriously, it's not
• Only between the people having sex
• Whatever reasons they have, if it's consensual, then leave it

[vital leaf]

here's the thing.
are the parents equipped enough to handle the child though?

not everybody is equipped with that same experience

[dim oracle]

Unless you wanna watch, but you still gotta get permission first

[balmy wing]

Should a 13 year old have to carry their baby to term??

[vital leaf]

i have a cousin who is on the autistic spectrum

it is ROUGH to take care of him if he has fits

not everybody can be patient or have the money to take care of them

and foster care is shit too

(well, a good amount)

[torpid hearth]

And considering how expensive and life-changing it is to have a child in america, I'd think it's fair for most people to be able to decide against that

[dim oracle]

Very good point @vital leaf

[steep aspen]

Have you ever looked at somebody and thought to yourself man that person shouldn’t be a parent? By banning abortion you’re letting people neglect their kids or treat their kids like shit in public. I hope whenever you see that you will remember the decision you made.

[dim oracle]

I am autistic and am planning on getting a vasectomy because I am lucid enough to do that and know that if i had a child right now or anytime soon with my issues I would ruin its life and traumatize it forever

[mystic blaze]

To the risk of STDs, yes

[steep aspen]

Some people are not ready to be parents. And forcing them to become parents won’t make them good parents

[vital leaf]

you still want to have the kid because of your beliefs? alright fine. but don't take away the right from those people who dont want and/or cannot take care of a child

[torpid hearth]

Also, here's a shower thought I had once. We're talking about a life that "could be", when talking about fetuses. When you abort a pregnancy, you're effectively killing a person that "could be", sure. But every second I'm not having sex to conceive as many children as possible, that's a potential child lost that "could have been". Think about that

[fleet lodge]

Okay, lets say that we all agree to not abort ever again. Who is going to adopt the hundreds of thousands of babies who will be sent to the state foster care system. What about the kids who are currently in the system? Who will take care of them? Are you planning on adopting any of these children so they don't get put through the endless back and forth of a system that doesn't care about them? Are you planning on providing monetary support or effort into making the system better for those children?

[mystic blaze]

If you're that unsure about having sex, you probably shouldn't have consented in the first place

[vital leaf]

not everybody knows what theyre going into until they get into it

[torpid hearth]

Again, should we force somebody to bring a pregnancy to term because they decided to have sex, had sex even though they weren't sure, were forced to have sex, or BC failed?

[vital leaf]

you only learn in some ways and if you find out midway, how does that mean they shouldn't have consented in first place?

[fleet lodge]

How are we going to feed this influx of children? We already have so many children who go to bed without a meal. There is also currently a formula shortage so babies can't have formula. Where are we going to find willing mothers to donate their breast milk for all of these children?

[steep aspen]

What about people who can’t consent? What about children?

[mystic blaze]

I didn't say they did, but it's always a risk unless the reproductive organs simply don't function

[mystic blaze]

I think that's pretty clearly not consenting to sex

[fleet lodge]

You must have an alternative to the abortion. How are you suggesting we take care of the unwanted children

[steep aspen]

Not all sex is consensual tho so what about that?

What happens when a pregnancy develops from that?

What happens if a 11 yo is pregnant?

Should they get abortion care?

What if it’s incest rape?

[balmy wing]

Should a rape victim have birth, regardless of age?

[fleet lodge]

On top of those questions, I'm very interested in hearing your solution about the unwanted children.

[torpid hearth]

That is what I meant

[woeful meteor]

You don't want people to have abortions.. So when they are forced to have a baby they don't want, and abandon them, are you going to take care of them?

[mystic blaze]

Parents are almost never ready. They manage. They adapt. That's parenthood

[vital leaf]

the thing is, the parents who want the child are prepared mentally to face those challenges. you are straight up ignoring those who aren't (more often than not)

they consented to learning

[balmy wing]

That is literally false

A 12 year old isn’t meant to be a parent

[fleet lodge]

When you have the time I would really like an answer to this. Because to suggest that abortions need to be outlawed then you must have a solution for the unwanted children.

[dim oracle]

Lets keep it respectful guys, @mystic blaze is pretty much the only one representing the other side, its probably hard to keep track of everything

[mystic blaze]

It already is a life

[woeful meteor]

Do you think that a parent, who is forced to have a baby because it's illegal to have an abortion, abandons their unwanted baby after it's birth because they literally never wanted a child, should be punished for abandoning the baby? If so what, go to jail and the child is still abandoned.. You going to force a parent who was already forced to birth a baby, to take care of said baby? Literally a parasite forced on a human.

[vital leaf]

while i personally believe that as well, i do not believe that banning abortion is a solution.

[fleet lodge]

Give him a chance to reply to all the previous questions before we get back into it guys. It's getting a bit disorganized here

[mystic blaze]

That, my friend, is called life

[versed kettle]

It is not a life. Where is the proof that it is a life. We don't define a life created until birth. Hence why they don't gain citizenship, a birthdate

[torpid hearth]

The list of questions:
What if the parents are unable to(for whatever reason) properly care for the child?
Should a child be forced to give birth?
Should we allow abortions in the case of rape, which is clearly non-consensual?
When talking about children that "could be", does that mean we should constantly be conceiving children to bring in as many children that "could be"?
With a lack of abortions, would that not put a strain on our resources(foster care, health care, baby food, formula)?
Should we force people to give birth under all circumstances? Such as failed BC, forced sex, etc.
Without abortion, how are we going to take care of unwanted children?
Are we going to take care of abandoned children?
Should we be forcing parenthood on people?

[vital leaf]

that, is fucked up if you are telling me that people need to "deal with the consequences" especially if they didn't want to have the child especially due to rape

[torpid hearth]

Let's cool it on the questions rq

[mystic blaze]

In cases where the sexual intercourse itself was illegal, I believe you should have the child to term, whether or not you decide to keep it, but there shouldn't be legal consequences if one decides to abort it

[mystic blaze]

I'd argue you shouldn't have sex with your brother....

[fleet lodge]

psst.. read how it says rape

[dim oracle]

Yeah @mystic blaze take some time to breath and catch up with questions if youd like. We appreciate you entertaining our questions and taking the criticism like a champ. It is extremely interesting to hear an opposing point of view first hand.

[steep aspen]

Children should be forced to have children even if they were raped. Got it

[mystic blaze]

Fine, first child parents

[fleet lodge]

Everyone take a minute to go drink some water while he catches up on the questions

[mystic blaze]

There is no "consent" to learning. With everything in life, you have to learn or deal with the hardships presented from not learning. Species that don't adapt in time become extinct

[vital leaf]

you've missed my point in that. they consented to the child, so they consented to dealing with the consequences of having one, including learning.
not everybody consented to having a child, therefore they did not consent to having to learn how to take care and raise one

[mystic blaze]

I mean there used to be a lot of 12 year old parents. I generally don't think 12 year olds should be sleeping around but previous generations have shown some sort of ability to care for children and families in adolescence

[mystic blaze]

Lol this do be true. I'm 8 min behind atm

[torpid hearth]

We aren't animals, we're human.

[dim oracle]

We appreciate you taking the time to go through and reply to people, keeping the discussion lively!

[mystic blaze]

I mean bacteria and fungi are considered life. 1 week old fetuses have a lot more cells than bacteria and fungi

[vital leaf]

only countering this saying that we are animals, we just are just one of, if not, only that has independent thought, but because of this we need to think more about what we do and those consequences because the concepts we know are more complex than just barbaric instinct

[mystic blaze]

Fetuses typically develop a heartbeat at 10-12 weeks. They have a distinct set of DNA from each parent at conception. I would argue a pregnant mother doesn't have 20 fingers and 2 hearts

[mystic blaze]

Also goes both ways. You shouldn't have sex with your sister IMO

[vital leaf]

....

[fleet lodge]

You mind responding to my other message?

[dim oracle]

I think we are one of the only if not the only species that has introspective though, but there are definitely other species that are similar in their intelligence and critical thinking abilities. Dolphins are the number 1 example I think, rats, mice and some primates are up there too

[fleet lodge]

I really want to hear your solution on this. You might have missed it since it wasn't a response to you

[woeful meteor]

Skipped right over all that.

[vital leaf]

yeah. tho we will never know for sure cause we dont know how to properly communicate with other animals (other than the few primates who learned sign language)

[woeful meteor]

Caledonian crows are the only species besides humans known to manufacture hooked tools in the wild.

[mystic blaze]

I'd argue most American children enrolled in public education don't want to go to school. Technically humans are animals. And the capacity to process information and learn at such a high rate is what makes us human

[vital leaf]

countering the "not wanting to go to school" thing being that in today's day and age, you need a certain amount of schooling to survive in the world as it is today, so it's mandatory to at least teach that much.

[mystic blaze]

I hope you can acknowledge that not every orphan currently without foster parents will find a home. As much as you'd wish these kids had two loving parents, not everybody is dealt the same hand. That's not to say they can't be happy or successful though. Just because their life doesn't fit your definition of an optimal life doesn't mean they can't make the most of what they've got. The average American living in poverty is better off than the average person who lived half a millennium ago. Hell, the average American below the poverty line would be considered wealthy in developing nations like Uganda or Angola

That being said, I am considering adoption in the future, but my life situation at that point will dictate if I choose to go down that route or not

[mystic blaze]

I'd disagree. People don't need traditional public education to be able to learn from the world around them and adapt to their surroundings

It's just designed to give them a head start compared to those who can't share such education

Probably going to head out soon tho. I just jumped in here when I woke up and I'm still drowsy and have stuff to do. Appreciate everybody who had civil, objective discussion

[quartz tapir]

Arguing that American schooling should even count as education

[mystic blaze]

Our society needs more open ended discussion across the lines of different ideologies. So many political conversations or anything centered around controversial topics take place in echochambers. Accepting opposing viewpoints and tolerating those who don't think the same way seems to be a rarity nowadays. The ability to have your own opinions and think for yourself is what makes us great

[steep aspen]

Ngl it’s really hard to tolerate the ideals of people who think we should die for a life that isn’t even alive. But I get the thought.

(Not saying you specifically I mean in general)

[mystic blaze]

Well I hope you realize the way they see you on the flip side of the argument is that you want a federally protected right to murder

There are two sides to every issue

[versed kettle]

Considering a lot of these "opposing opinions" or more about if I deserve rights or am considered a human being or not most of the time not willing to accept those opposing viewpoints. Liking vanilla or chocolate is an opposing viewpoint. Believing gay people are human or an abomination is not.

[torpid hearth]

Actually, I want to ask you about that for a seperate issue, if you're okay with that

[mystic blaze]

It's okay to open yourself up to more than one perspective

[mystic blaze]

Is there another thread for it or would you like to ask it here?

[torpid hearth]

Could there be 2 defendable sides when we're talking about whether or not certain people should exist the way they do? Talking about gender non-conforming peeps

[mystic blaze]

If it won't take too long, go ahead

[torpid hearth]

Just quick question so I don't think we need a new thread

But it'd be cool if one of the mods did make one for this

[woeful meteor]

Kinda need to know what it's about to make a thread for it.. lol you never actually said.

[steep aspen]

I personally don’t care if people see me as a murderer for not wanting to die. But I totally get it. The difference is that I am ending the possibility of a life, instead of ending the life of somebody who already has friends, family, coworkers, experiences, memories, lovers, etc.

[versed kettle]

Idk if a thread for whether lgbtq should exist or not is needed or wanted

[woeful meteor]

nvm I am literally blind.

[mystic blaze]

My best friend was raped. I in no way excuse rape, but the unfortunate reality of life is that we will be thrown curveballs, and sometimes we'll be thrown a meteor. You've just got to do the best you can with what you've got. As awful as rape is (kind of besides the point, but I actually believe rape is an even greater evil than murder), I don't believe two wrongs makes a right. And you can have whatever view you hold, but to me, abortion is amkng a list of things against a set of principles I hold myself to and live by

[steep aspen]

And that’s fine. You can have the choice of saying abortion just isn’t for you. But enforcing it on everybody, you remove choice. You deciding what women should do with their bodies instead of you deciding that everybody has an opinion and has a choice for that opinion.

People who are anti-gun reform would hate it if people said you can’t have guns anymore. How do you think women feel to be told that you don’t get the right of your own body anymore. The differences is when a gun can be bought and sold, your body is the only one you have.

[mystic blaze]

Well I don't think I've ever met a pro life person that doesn't believe a fetus is a life, so if you're trying to compare the two objectively and across ideological lines, including "the possibility of" only works to the one side of the argument

[mystic blaze]

Well the difference there is that the right to bear arms is specifically enumerated in the Constitution

[steep aspen]

I’m asking hypotheticals currently. And I’m sure it’s kind of hinted out in the context. Me saying would hate and all that. So if we could kind of keep it in the hypotheticals that’d be great

I could change it to a more personal non gun hypothetical for you. Imagine we made it so that every man had to have a vasectomy. You’ve lost your bodily autonomy. How do you feel?

Do you think the government should have a right to tell you what to do with your body? If you are not an organ donor do you think that the government should be able to take your organs when you die?

[dim oracle]

I do think this is where the main difference in opinion truly lies. Many Pro-Life supporters believe that once sperm enters an egg that is life which is some miracle of god, where as Pro-Choice supporters believe that life starts with consciousness and a myriad of other science based factors as shown with evolution etc...

[mystic blaze]

My personal opinion for the abortion argument is separate from what I think should be done. I believe the 10th Amendment gives states the authority to make their own laws

[quartz tapir]

And nihilists believe that life never begins so what's the point

[mystic blaze]

Well a fetus develops consciousness before it's born

[quartz tapir]

9th*

Wait, i should double check

[dim oracle]

definitely not at conception though

[quartz tapir]

Wow I was wrong this whole evening

[steep aspen]

Your opinion on abortion and what should be done is hand-in-hand. Because your opinion can affect lawmakers, can help get lawmakers voted in. Your opinion is not something that has no consequence. Could you please answer my questions?

[mystic blaze]

No, but many organisms aren't conscious either

[steep aspen]

I would really, truly, love to hear what you think about bodily autonomy and if the government should be able to take it away from you personally.

[mystic blaze]

Yeah I was gonna say the 9th amendment is about rights that aren't specifically enumerated in the Constitution

[dim oracle]

I mean are we talking conscious of their place in the universe or just conscious as in existing and having some form of decision making in their brain or cells whatever it may be

It all gets very philosophical very quick when you try to get to the root of it

[mystic blaze]

Idk if I'm allowed to say this but I describe my political ideology as a Constitutional, Libertarian Conservative, so I'm most concerned with individual liberties and limited government

[dim oracle]

Ye you can declare affiliation that is totally fine

[mystic blaze]

Also I don't think I ever got to address Metra's question earlier

[steep aspen]

Can you address mine?

[versed kettle]

I am curious on something. Do you believe that we should harvest the organs from someone who passed away in order to save other lives, regardless of if they were an organ donor or not. We just take their organs because they are no longer conscious, they no longer have life.

[dim oracle]

mind replying to your question so he knows which one you mean

[steep aspen]

Here down to the one under too

[mystic blaze]

That's an interesting argument

[dim oracle]

I would vote yes for this bill, I want a vasectomy, infants scare me. If i raise a child I will be adopting

[mystic blaze]

As far as personal possessions and copyrights, subsequent descendants do get rights to their belongings and the family name, so I guess it should be up to them to decide if there is no specific designation the person made while they were alive

[dim oracle]

The answer to your question ^

[mystic blaze]

I'm pretty sure I registered as an organ donor, but I believe my dad didn't want me to because he's Asian and a lot of Asian beliefs value burying a person's entire body, organs included

[torpid hearth]

this:
Could there be 2 defendable sides when we're talking about whether or not certain people should exist the way they do? Talking about gender non-conforming peeps

Just like

Queer issues

[mystic blaze]

Could you be a little more specific?

I'm still pretty tired

[dim oracle]

We will make a separate thread for this actually @mystic blaze that is a big question

[mystic blaze]

I was up late the last two nights knocking out two weeks worth of college assignments

Didnt get much sleep last night because I woke up feeling real sick

And just took like a 10 hour nap

[steep aspen]

I totally get the whole I am already an organ donor thing. But my question was more like what if you didn’t consent to your organs being taken away after you died

[torpid hearth]

If a person is, say, trans, should people be able to debate for and against that person's existence?

[steep aspen]

Dylan’s gonna make a thread

[dim oracle]

I am sorry to hear that, I wish you luck with your studies.

[mystic blaze]

Yeah I got it all done, but I do have an essay to work on too

Then I turn 21 in about a week

I'm no longer feeling ill tho. Perhaps just a mild case of food poisoning or whatever

[dim oracle]

You should be able to create a new topic that follows the format guidelines if you would like or I can do it, I will leave that up to you

[mystic blaze]

But I did miss out on a trip to Holiday World as a result

[versed kettle]

Thank you. Now examine this, you don't get the choice. This is done regardless of descendants and family members. Organs taken no matter what. They just are because the government can.

[torpid hearth]

could you do it please?

[steep aspen]

Do you need help on setting one up?

[mystic blaze]

Yeah I'm generally opposed to increased government involvement

[dim oracle]

ye if you have a better idea of the question go for it, i do not feel well equipped for that one

[mystic blaze]

And I guess I'll address the other issue in the new thread since it's being made

[steep aspen]

But the government can tell women what to do with their bodies? No increased government involvement as long as it doesn’t affect you.

[versed kettle]

Would you agree then that abortion choice should be left up to the individual?

[dim oracle]

oh ok lol ill do it then

[torpid hearth]

ok actually I'll do it

cuz I might want to personalize it a bit

[dim oracle]

awesome! the guidelines should be pretty self explanatory I hope, if not feel free to reach out to a mod for help

[mystic blaze]

No because I'm also concerned about the right to life for the fetus that can't advocate for itself

[steep aspen]

Do you consider sperm emission without an egg a loss of life?

[mystic blaze]

If it can't be fertilized, it only has one set of 23 chromosomes, no?

[steep aspen]

Your sperm cannot advocate for itself either. And it's part of the recipe for a baby

[mystic blaze]

Yes, part

[steep aspen]

And a baby is part of me. Not its own

[mystic blaze]

It's just the father's DNA

It's one of his cells

[torpid hearth]

where do I find the rules again?

[mystic blaze]

Should be in the description of the channel

[steep aspen]

So i can lay claim on part of the rights of the fetus because it is one part of me. It is not independent and therefor does not have a right to life

[versed kettle]

Sperm is considered alive. Most writings about it refer to life-span and viability.

[dim oracle]

When you go to "Start a conversation..." it should pop up and you can also expand discord to fullscreen on desktop then press view more on the guidelines box

[mystic blaze]

Well would you also consider the testicles a harbor of human beings?

We could talk about this all day and nobody's opinions would likely change

[steep aspen]

Yeah testicles do harbor human beings. Because without sperm there cannot be life

[dim oracle]

You can also use #994031809891418183 as a reference for what a well formatted topic looks like

[fleet lodge]

This response doesn't really give a solution for the state of the current system as it stands. The comparison between our country and others is not what I'm looking for either as it doesn't really matter given the context. It is good to recognize that the system is flawed, but isn't it sad that you have just accepted that the unwanted child is going to live through that? My question is, how do you suggest we fix the already strained system to prepare for the burden of the influx of unwanted babies? How do we get families to volunteer as foster homes so we can make sure each baby is taken care of when the government facilities fill over capacity? Also, how do we protect the unwanted babies once they do get settled into the system? What about the sexual assault that happens within volunteer foster family homes? What about the numerous mental health issues that spring up from being in a confusing and unforgiving system?

What are your solutions to giving the unwanted baby a better standard of life?

[versed kettle]

Yes. Based on your arguments yes. Sperm is a blueprint needed for life, without sperm life doesn't exist. So that sperm is part of life and thus harbors human beings.

[mystic blaze]

Yeah and we can't have human life without oxygen, so are those living humans too?

Every little O2 molecule

[steep aspen]

Oxygen is not a component in the baby making recipe tho. Sperm and embryo are

[dim oracle]

I see where you are coming from there but I feel like thats a bit of an over simplification

[versed kettle]

We're talking about cells here, not molecules. Specifically human cells. So no oxygen is not.

[mystic blaze]

Long story short, I consider a life to start at conception

[steep aspen]

And i consider every masterbatory sperm emission as loss of life by the logic stated here today

[dim oracle]

Do you mind me asking if you consider yourself a religious person, if so, do you believe it begins at conception because of your faith. feel free to decline to answer

[hasty narwhal]

Sperm do fit most of the qualifications for something to be considered alive, the only one that really misses is reproduction and growth so by some standards it is a life especially if you consider spermatogenesis reproduction or fertilization of an egg reproduction of the sperm in the long run

[mystic blaze]

I have sympathy for those who grow up in less than ideal circumstances, but it's not my right to decide to not give that baby the chance. The way I see it, determining its fate for it would be me playing God

[fleet lodge]

You are avoiding my question

To force a person with a uterus to give birth is to ultimately accept responsibility for the resulting life that it leads. So, what are your solutions to giving the unwanted baby a better standard of life? How are you going to make the system better?

[mystic blaze]

I consider myself Christian, but mainly for a set of principles and a greater sense of purpose in life. I choose to believe in God even tho according to my own beliefs and my understand of science, I acknowledge he may be not exist. I'm far from devout and don't go to church, and actually was atheist for a few years. I used to not have a stance on the abortion issue for lack of understanding and wanting to distance myself from a very convoluted debate, but through informing myself I developed my current stances. I feel as if my faith reinforces my position rather than influence it

[mystic blaze]

We always have to work on improving the system. That's not something anybody's found an adequate answer for and I don't have all the answers, but I'd rather give that child a chance than turn the light out entirely

[woeful meteor]

Isn't that how it always happens.. "Lets change this system cause I don't like it.. But also no idea what to do with everything after it's changed.."

For random reference, and not even an accurate numbers for sure:
A federal study found at least 22,000 babies left in hospitals each year by parents unwilling to care for them..

Meanwhile, CDC Abortion Surveillance System lists 629,898 abortions in 2019, If they were all forced to give birth, and there were 600k more babies the world.. How many do you think would be abandoned if they didn't have that option, and what do you think should happen to them?

[dim oracle]

Very interesting, thank you for sharing

[mystic blaze]

Also as a personal position, I believe society would benefit from taking more accountability individually, which means understanding the risks that come with having sex, especially without sufficient protection. Surprise pregnancies are far from ideal, of course, but the pair should take responsibility for an unintended consequence of having sex. That being said, they can choose to put the baby up for adoption. I would encourage them not to but they have that right

I don't believe a culture of having sex for pleasure with any random man or woman is good for society

[steep aspen]

How do you feel about the supreme court entertaining the notion to ban contraceptives?

Without safe sex, all there will be is uh oh babies

[mystic blaze]

But this is currently embedded in our culture and it's really hard to legislate culture, even if I thought it should be regulated

[fleet lodge]

So in turn, you would rather let an unwanted baby rot in the broken foster system than have it terminated. A system where that baby has an increased chance of death and sexual assault. You find that situation more appealing than an abortion?

Because by not offering any solution or thought into changing the system that is what you settle for.

[quartz tapir]

I feel that Thomas will write the dissenting opinion because it seems like no one else agrees with him publicly.

[steep aspen]

It still could be possible tho

everyone said "they aren't gonna overturn roe v wade stop worrying" but then they did so

[quartz tapir]

Sure anything is possible

Based on the logic presented they were obligated to

[steep aspen]

One could argue what was logical and what was not

[quartz tapir]

The logic because that the Roe decision overstepped the bounds of what the judicial branch was permitted to decide on?

An opinion that even Justice Ginsburg had?

[steep aspen]

Oh sorry my bad, I meant that abortion isnt in the constitution therefore unprotected.

It didn't need to be in the constitution at the time bc it was normalized.

[quartz tapir]

Oh yeah, I disagree with Thomas' opinion on that

No idea why he put that in there, it was completely contradictory

It's absolutely shitty reasoning too because by that logic if you have something unconstitutional for long enough it could be considered constitutional for being historically significant

[mystic blaze]

The pro choice argument here stems from Justice Clarence Thomas's concurring opinion on the Dobbs ruling. I read the piece, and he isn't saying they should overturn them. His argument against the Roe v Wade case was that the 14th Amendment's due process clause didn't apply to substantive due process, and that the abortion cases brought before the Supreme Court were unique in that aspect from the aforementioned cases he's been accused of wanting to overturn

[quartz tapir]

Those cases were designed to circumvent Roe

[mystic blaze]

Yeah even Ruth Bader Ginsburg expected Roe v Wade to be overturned at some point because she believed the reasoning behind the decision was faulty and not fundamentally sound

[steep aspen]

All in all, you cant ban abortion. You can only ban safe abortion.

[mystic blaze]

She was still pro choice I'm almost certain but didn't agree with the specific rationale behind the concurrent decision of Roe v Wade

[steep aspen]

So no matter your opinion, they will continue to happen in unsafe conditions. Because the govt wanted a hand on our bodies.

[mystic blaze]

Just like they can't ban gun transactions

[steep aspen]

Alright I gotta dip. We are gonna have to agree to disagree homeslice. It's been real

[mystic blaze]

Have a good night

[carmine cargo]

it sucks bc im taking birth control for polycystic ovary syndrome

[upper oriole]

tbh the only 2 species that have sex for pleasure are humans and dolphins.

im of the opinion that the legislature arm needed to do its job. my view on the courts is that their law is temporary and can be changed very easily. There are a few states that codified it knowing that risk and others that well.... you know how it goes

with court decisions as well - its up to the enforcement of the legislature and wisconsin have said they will not prosecute on it so its legal despite being illegal.

always remember stonewall jackson's saying "they've made their decsion, now its their time to enforce it"

I'm for most abortion periods - unsure about late-term abortion (3rd trimester)

[carmine cargo]

most women don't even get abortions past the 2nd trimester

if they do, it's because something happened to the baby and its' effecting the mother's health

[upper oriole]

The supreme court is heavily constitutionalist at the moment so i'd expect a lot of scaling back of activist decisions.

Yep, and i think the legislative need to include that in most of their legislation etc. I don't think federal government can do that though

because states will go to supreme court and quote the federalist papers to state health = state right not federal and would likely win with the current Supreme Court.

[carmine cargo]

well it's also against other religions in the us as well

so i think there will be a ton of people suing

[upper oriole]

i'm only talking from a legal standpoint that is

because other people don't have standing - the state does if a federal makes a law on a state issue without the state giving the federal the power to.

[carmine cargo]

it's a law based on christianity

[upper oriole]

the system that America is built on is christian philosophy mostly coming from John Locke

but the system itself is not catholic in any sense - was built from a philosopher that believe in 3 separate arms (Montsquieu i believe)

[carmine cargo]

no it's not. the founding fathers wanted there to be a separation of church and state because there's other religions in the usa

[upper oriole]

Legislative, Executive, Judiciary and believed they should be all separate. 3 levels of govt federal, state and local.

[carmine cargo]

okay. never mind about me trying to dispute your john locke claim. i just looked it up, but i think the laws that affect everyone need to be separate from someone's religion

[upper oriole]

im referring to the system - there is no religion in it. im stating that the person whose ideals it was based on and the values used was catholic - that doesn't mean the system is.

now the other standpoint is that roe v wade should be kept because the legislative are slow and won't really do anything unless it wins them votes.

(thurman view)

hence why judicial activism exists because the cynicism at the legislation being pathetic (which they mostly are)

i don't like judicial activism because of the chance of really poor decisions being made and the impact of them. At the same time, they make some great and important decisions too.

the most important point is that judges on the supreme court aren't elected and last a lifetime too.

which is yeah >.> i dont like it

[carmine cargo]

PA Republicans are trying to pass a law banning abortion in pa right now

im scared

[earnest jacinth]

Im just more or less pissed of that emergency contraceptives are most likely gonna get banned in the states that ban abortion depending on their laws

[vital leaf]

https://twitter.com/search?q="Executive Order"&src=trend_click&pt=1545443750394093570&vertical=trends

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/biden-sign-executive-order-abortion-access-amid-pressure/story?id=86447547

[earnest jacinth]

Can you tldr it for me

Links are scary xoxo

[dim oracle]

AYEYYEYEYEY

we love that

biden did something good

His order largely finalizes what has already been announced by the administration -- including instructions to the Justice Department to make sure women can travel out-of-state for abortion care.

The order addresses the elevated risks for patients, providers and clinics, which includes efforts to protect mobile clinics that have been deployed to state borders to offer care for out-of-state patients.

Biden has also said he'll provide leave for federal workers traveling for medical care, which could set an example for private companies to do the same.

Biden is also ordering the Department of Health and Human Services to take "additional action to protect and expand" access to medication abortion, emergency contraception and IUDs.

[earnest jacinth]

[dim oracle]

It also addresses some patient privacy concerns that are meant to combat digital surveillance related to reproductive health

this is a big win

[earnest jacinth]

This is such a big win omg

[dim oracle]

Your cycle tracking app is no longer allowed to report stats to any government or private external org

[vital leaf]

bro its an official abc link and the twitter link and i'm not a rando who would have some random links. trust me plzzz

[fleet lodge]

Lets go gamers

[dim oracle]

I think its just a lot of effort to click the link and then read an entire article for the tid bits lol

adhd andys

[vital leaf]

could be that, but also gala hates links

anyways thanks biden

[dim oracle]

thanks biden 🙄

[steep aspen]

Man, thanks Biden just doesn’t have the same ring as thanks Obama

[dim oracle]

took long enough old man

[steep aspen]

Literally

[fleet lodge]

he had to find his readers

[steep aspen]

Big win for women today

[dim oracle]

Ye huge win, in all seriousness, much respect for biden and his order drafters

[quartz tapir]

Say "Biden did this!"

[carmine cargo]

but isn't it still up to the states?

it's still banned in states

[dim oracle]

No, the fifth amendment guarantees free and unencumbered travel over interstate borders. This further asserts that states can not punish or restrict people from leaving their state for an abortion, as well as making it very difficult for them to figure out if they left to get an abortion or not.

Aka: State says "you can not leave to get an abortion, you have to tell us if you are pregnant and leaving so we can keep track of if you come back without pregnancy," biden says "no lol thats not allowed, they can go wherever they want interstate without question"

It also adds some places on borders of states without sensible abortion rights that are easily accessible for travelers seeking medical assistance

States also have no power over federal mail delivery since its federal, so this takes steps in the direction of guaranteeing abortion pills will be available by mail no matter if its illegal in your state or not

Cant be looking at peoples federal mail to check for pills :)

[versed kettle]

Not often this admin has done good things but this is legit a good thing. Hopefully a sign of things to come

[quartz tapir]

Buys time for conducting things through the legislative branch anyway

[quartz tapir]

Interesting

[carmine cargo]

So most people don’t like the reversal?

[steep aspen]

Yeah the majority, based on this chart, are against reversing the above issues

[torpid hearth]

wait I'm confused

reversing the above issues means?

[carmine cargo]

it's not like we're getting our rights back anytime soon.

[steep aspen]

For instance overturning roe v wade. (From my understanding) People largely disapproved the reversal of roe v wade

[carmine cargo]

i think roe v wade being overturned, followed by all the other rights being overturned is the start of the collapse of the us

[quartz tapir]

Considering other justices that voted to nullify Roe disagree with Thomas' opinion in other matters and flat out said they don't believe the ruling changes how it's applied to same-sex marriage, same-sex intercourse, or contraceptives, it's probably not going to happen any time soon.

[dim oracle]

https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/vuocun/pregnant_texas_woman_driving_in_hov_lane_told/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

Damn, apparently there is a whole ass human in there, but you can’t even use the HOV lane.

[quartz tapir]

Pretty stupid form of activism. Who are they trying to change the mind of, the cop?

There's probably going to be unintended consequences of idiots nationwide now requiring extensive rewriting of carpool laws even in states with protected abortion rights.

[dim oracle]

I mean it specifies two people must be present in the vehicle, with current Texas law are there not two people in the vehicle? It is not activism, it is common sense. Under Texas state law there are two people currently in that car that maintain the rights abided to citizens. Therefore under the law she is in the right.

It is not always about activism and proving a point, the law now says what it says. If the fetus is a person that is afforded the same rights as any other person this woman should be allowed to travel in the HOV lane with herself and her "child."

[quartz tapir]

By the same reasoning people can carpool as such in California

[dim oracle]

I think they should be able to yes

[quartz tapir]

All it does is serve to highlight the disconnect between abortion rights and being a rational human being.

[dim oracle]

If it is a person it is a person, you can not pick and choose which items apply to them. That would insinuate it is not a person since they have to be treated differently than a "regular person."

[quartz tapir]

Completely irrelevant when it comes to traffic laws

[vital leaf]

Thing is think of it as malicious compliance. They want to treat an unborn child as a person? Aight HOV lane then

cause it's exactly malicious compliance

[quartz tapir]

Sure, but that's why I bring up the implications. To me it appears that said person was trying to drive in the carpool lane and get out of a ticket.

[vital leaf]

it's stupid logic activism, but would also be something that would definitely piss off some lawmakers even though the person doing that has a decent point

[quartz tapir]

No rational person is going to drive in the carpool lane with child and go "hehehe, I'm going to show it to the lawmakers"

[dim oracle]

I mean it was pure happenstance that she got pulled over, she happened to use this excuse. The law also happens to currently support her claim.

[quartz tapir]

You know, you're right. It's a mistake to call it activism. It's just being a shitty person.

That said there's probably opportunity to use it to actually do a protest and have a bunch of people driving in the carpool lane with children or those cosmetic bellies.

[dim oracle]

I think that would be a great idea actually. It would be a very good form of protest, showing the idiocy of the current state of the law in Texas and several other states.

Also if I am being honest, that woman lost a fundamental right recently. In my eyes she is allowed to be annoyed, even if it was purposeful protest, let them at least have this.

[earnest jacinth]

If a fetus is considered a baby then that means the father should have to pay child support as soon as the pregnancy is confirmed, pregnant people should get $500 added to their stimulus, anyone attacking a pregnant person should be charged with child abuse, etc

[dim oracle]

Yeah, I believe some states are exploring the option to sue for an unwanted pregnancy.

https://www.nbc4i.com/news/local-news/bill-would-let-ohioans-sue-over-unintended-pregnancies/

[earnest jacinth]

Life insurance should cover the costs of fetuses then if they’re considered babies. Miscarriages should result in a payout towards the people who lost the child

[quartz tapir]

Did she lose any rights recently? 3rd trimester was banned nationally in every state.

[dim oracle]

As a uterus haver, yes she lost rights.

[earnest jacinth]

Nobody is getting an abortion in the 3rd trimester unless the baby has died or if the life is at stake of the parent

[quartz tapir]

But they're not applicable to her in this case?

[dim oracle]

I am happy to say that rights do not only apply in certain circumstances. My girlfriend is not pregnant nor do we plan on getting pregnant, if we did though she would not have the right to an abortion in the state of Texas.

Therefore she has markedly less rights than before, if we lived in Texas.

[quartz tapir]

Understandable

[earnest jacinth]

Just because your religion or personal views say you can’t get an abortion bc of whatever reason does not mean that it should also restrict others from being able to make the decision for themselves

[dim oracle]

I do think it is silly to have to defend and argue for something like using the HOV lane when pregnant, but at this point we have to grasp for whatever we can so they don't further strip people of their rights.

[quartz tapir]

By grasp you mean sending letters to your state representatives for your state general assembly, right?

Because that's the imminent threat here

[dim oracle]

Protest, letters, malicious compliance, really any form of fighting for people's rights.

If a fetus is a human with rights and they can define which rights apply to that human differently than others, then what stops them from saying that Black people do not count anymore for HOV lanes. If the fetus is at the same level as other citizens, what is the difference that allows them to pick and choose which privileges apply.

[quartz tapir]

Yeah, you're right. We should just dismantle those lanes.

[dim oracle]

BETTER CITY PLANNING TODAY!

[quartz tapir]

Either that or violate people's rights by having them prove they're pregnant.

[dim oracle]

Exactly, I hate saying "it is a slippery slope," but once precedence is set that you can pick and choose which privileges apply for a fetus that is supposed to be a full citizen they can do that for any citizen.

[quartz tapir]

California is going to be so fucked 😎

Their entire highway system is reliant on carpooling

Or rather at least in the LA metro area

[dim oracle]

Hell ye we are, the whole country is going to suffer because of the recent decision in ways they could have never predicted. Just like the "don't say gay" bill, proper sex education is going to suffer as a side effect of idiotic law making.

[quartz tapir]

I don't think so for that case. Sex education shouldn't be taught to elementary school students at all IMO.

[dim oracle]

Different topic don't wanna open that nutshell or whatever the saying is.

[quartz tapir]

We should go to the European model of abortion

[dim oracle]

Which European nation?

[dim oracle]

Very sad how different that US map would look now with 2022 data, but yeah I totally agree. This is a medical issue for doctors and patients to decide, not "the highest court in the land."

[quartz tapir]

I just think it's funny, I've been seeing Europeans dunking on the crisis but the reality is that they're more restrictive than they realize.

[dim oracle]

https://reproductiverights.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/European-abortion-law-a-comparative-review.pdf

Here is a more comprehensive workup of abortion rights in European nations if anyone wants to read into it.

[quartz tapir]

Wow, a lot of these countries have the same laws as red states

Required counseling and waiting period

[dim oracle]

Yeah that is pretty common in the EU, I have read that doctors are required to be much more objective though when evaluating. In the US if the doctor has religious affiliations they can refuse, or even try to convince you it is not the right move against sound medical knowledge.

[crude gulch]

i think another thing often overlooked in this debate is who is going to perform these necessary
ny only legalized later term abortions within the last year, and i had read a twitter thread about a person who had to be flown out of the state for the procedure, because that doctor was one of the only ones qualified to

[versed kettle]

https://twitter.com/SamtheNightOwl/status/1545922263366520833?t=G3KrrAF9eX1f1Bf8zPHG3g&s=09

Sam 👁️ (@SamtheNightOwl)

my unironic hot take on abortion is that 𝘦𝘷𝘦𝘯 𝘪𝘧 a fetus were a person in the same sense that i am or you are, it's still very much morally permissible to have an abortion

Likes

28639

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Twitter · Jul 10, 2022, 12:06 AM

I agree with this. Its in the same train of thought as you can't be made to donate an organ, or bone marrow to save another life.

You could be the only match for someone, and if you donate that life continues. If you don't donate then that life ends. But you always have that choice.

[quartz tapir]

But if a fetus were a person in the same sense as us they would have conscious thought

That's entirely different from organs or bone marrow

[versed kettle]

What I am saying is that your body cannot be made to save or maintain the life of another.

A woman should not be forced to have her body used to keep the fetus alive in the same way I cannot be forced to have my body used to keep someone else alive.

[earnest jacinth]

But they don’t that we know of

[quartz tapir]

Korralin brought up the hypothetical that they were

[crude gulch]

as a former child, i can tell you i have no memories or consciousness before i was 4

[quartz tapir]

That's why it's a hypothetical...

[vital leaf]

Actually thats bc our brains memories were stored a diff way before then

[crude gulch]

i completely acknowledge this fact, i meant more like, i didn't operate independent of the adults in my life before that point in my life

[dim oracle]

I wish my parents were still allowed to abort me right now

Can't even give someone permission to kill me, free country my ass

[quartz tapir]

Guess the world isn't free because only 7 countries allow it